Clip: Chen Style power generation demos

[Golden Arms]

A thread in the Wing Chun forum reminded me of these videos, fortunately they are still out there. I am not a Tai Chi guy but I felt these do a good job of showing some of the potential in the Chen style power methods. Thoughts?

http://youtu.be/pWBBhVLbDgk

http://youtu.be/eIc5NIfrnJs

[YouKnowWho]

Chen Taiji is famous in "short" Jin generation. The wrestling requires "long" Jin to work. The word "power generation" doesn't fit quite well in the wrestling world. The wrestling will require many Jins to be combined into a perfect circle. It's different from the power generation in the striking world. Chen Taiji tries to cross that bountary between the striking world and the wrestling world. Some principles that fit in one world may not work well in the other.

The Chen Taiji push hand has the wrestling arms and wrestling body but don't have the wrestling legs. If you give your opponent too much freedom on his legs, your throws will have less chance to work.

These 2 clips are much better than the average push hand. May be because the ruleset doesn't allow them to use legs make the wrestling match look "untural".

[Mulong]

Chen Bing is demonstrating good shu/ 术(method/technique); however, we should take into account Chenshi tuishou (Chen style push-hands) borders with shuaijiao (throwing-down, angle); therefore, the use of li/ 力(force/external energy) is intermixed with jin/ 劲(energy/internal energy) to execute the throws.

[YouKnowWho]

The short Jin may be good in push hand but not suitable for throw. In the following clip, you can see that the "long Jin (contact and sticky)" is used in the throw and not the short Jin (contact and separate).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ptr3sLWXVY

The reason is simple. It takes many Jins to complete the "circle" of a throw. The short Jin just doesn't work well for that connection. In the folllowing throw, it taks 4 different long Jins to complete that throwing circle. It can't be broken between each Jins.

冲(Chong) - 1st quarter of the circle, you use your left shin bone to run into your opponent's right leg.
掺(Can) - 2nd quarter of the circle, you use your right arm under your opponent's right armpit to pull his body to your right.
踢(Ti) - 3rd quarter of the circle, you use right leg to sweep your opponent's left leg.
亮(Liang) - 4th quarter of the circle, you spin your body, turn your face, and "smoothly" guide your opponent all the way down to the ground.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4416/throwprinciple.jpg

[Hebrew Hammer]

I love those vids of Chen Bing...they've been around a while but he generates great torque, power, and explosiveness for his size. That guy he's wrestling with has a good sixty pounds on him and he flings him like a rag doll.

[XiaoPang]

He makes a spiral to the triangle point. Formerly Chen style videos only showed the shoulders and hand motions, now they are showing more and more openly which is good for martial and shadowboxing together.

[Eric Olson]

What say you doubters of the internal? :p

EO

[iunojupiter]

Looked like external physical manipulation to me... I didn't see any Chi Balls or Chi Lightning...
;)

[Eric Olson]

Looked like external physical manipulation to me... I didn't see any Chi Balls or Chi Lightning...
;)

People need to learn to distinguish between the internal and the paranormal :rolleyes:

EO

[iunojupiter]

I just have a personal dislike of the terms internal/external... and I was being sarcastic.
:p

[Eric Olson]

FYI, just so people know what they're seeing. He "floats" the opponent and then uses short power to knock him into the ground. Awesome!

Eric

[SPJ]

Chen Taiji is famous in "short" Jin generation. The wrestling requires "long" Jin to work. The word "power generation" doesn't fit quite well in the wrestling world. The wrestling will require many Jins to be combined into a perfect circle. It's different from the power generation in the striking world. Chen Taiji tries to cross that bountary between the striking world and the wrestling world. Some principles that fit in one world may not work well in the other.

The Chen Taiji push hand has the wrestling arms and wrestling body but don't have the wrestling legs. If you give your opponent too much freedom on his legs, your throws will have less chance to work.

These 2 clips are much better than the average push hand. May be because the ruleset doesn't allow them to use legs make the wrestling match look "untural".

agreed.

"shudder" or vibrating power or zhan dou jin is developed from focus joint to whole body shaking in tai ji.

it serves 2 functions

1 to shake off holding and destable the opponent

2 to strike. it can be in the begining, in the middle or in the end of power generation

that is it can be used to generate, transfer and release/end of the power.

:cool:

[SPJ]

for internal vs external argument

zhan dou or tan dou jin

it all starts from rotation in the dan tian, and outward

it is torque and not moving from left to righ or right to left

it comes from internal and expresses as external

both exist and not one without the other.

:)

[faxiapreta]

What say you doubters of the internal? :p

EO

Looked like his "opponent" was simply "going with the flow" and not offering any kind of counter-resistance against the throws.

Use your brains people. If someone really was able to throw a grappler around like that, it would make much more sense (and would happen regularly) to enter a high level greco-roman tourney and throw some real grapplers around.

[KC Elbows]

Looked like his "opponent" was simply "going with the flow" and not offering any kind of counter-resistance against the throws.

Use your brains people. If someone really was able to throw a grappler around like that, it would make much more sense (and would happen regularly) to enter a high level greco-roman tourney and throw some real grapplers around.

Those same two throws are used in judo.

[faxiapreta]

Those same two throws are used in judo.

Sure they are, but you won't see them express like that with the opponent flying away. That's not the way reality works. You can see that by simply watching judo matches.

[KC Elbows]

Sure they are, but you won't see them express like that with the opponent flying away. That's not the way reality works. You can see that by simply watching judo matches.

Please, share judo clips of those throws where the other guy isn't thrown similar distance. I've seen plenty of judo clips of one of those throws done better, throwing further, not nearer.

[faxiapreta]

Please, share judo clips of those throws where the other guy isn't thrown similar distance. I've seen plenty of judo clips of one of those throws done better, throwing further, not nearer.

Judo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rhdGdKqJdQ

Greco Roman (which is actually what real jacketless throws are like):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36oSF8vNd0A

Notice how in just about all of the throws, both opponents end up on the ground. This is what happens when skilled, resisting competitors attempt to throw each other. It's very hard to actually launch an opponent away from you because, most of the time he has grips.

[Eric Olson]

Looked like his "opponent" was simply "going with the flow" and not offering any kind of counter-resistance against the throws.

Use your brains people. If someone really was able to throw a grappler around like that, it would make much more sense (and would happen regularly) to enter a high level greco-roman tourney and throw some real grapplers around.

If you think that was "going with flow" then you have no idea what you're looking at. More like "helpless against the flow."

EO

[KC Elbows]

Am I to take it that you don't know the name on judo of the throws we're discussing, in order to compare apples to apples?

[KC Elbows]

He is correct that it is not clips of two equals, but, since he brought it up, comparing the SAME throws would be more useful for discussion.

[faxiapreta]

Am I to take it that you don't know the name on judo of the throws we're discussing, in order to compare apples to apples?

OK, to compare apples to apples, please show judo competitions in which the opponents are being launched away as in that clip.

To better compare apples to apples, please show greco-roman competitions.

[faxiapreta]

If you think that was "going with flow" then you have no idea what you're looking at. More like "helpless against the flow."

EO

Again, use your brain. There is a reason you never see people being launched like that over and over again in judo or greco roman competitions.

If this was real, it would be a simple matter for him to do this in a greco-roman tourney, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a video showing the great Judo master Mifune doing throws on his students, he was a tiny man and already of advanced age and he sends those bigger and younger opponents flying.
He was probably the best Judoka ever.
His students were NOT resisting him in that demo.
Demo are just that, demos.
The demonstrate something in a very specific setting and typiclaly the guy getting demoed on goes with the flow since there is no reason NOT to.
Its not a set-up or anything like that, it is simply a demo.

[Eric Olson]

I think what is lacking in this discussion of internal/external is that we can say, this looks like this or this looks like that, but what's missing is that you can't really see "internal" unless you really know what to look for...you can really only differentiate when you FEEL the difference. This is why we laugh at people who learn from DVDs. Yes, you know the shape, the external part, but you don't know how it's supposed to feel--the kinetics of it. Big limitation of discussing MA on this forum.

But that's a good point that an opponent would be grabbing you and might not launch away like that. Doesn't negate what I'm saying though.

EO

[faxiapreta]

But that's a good point that an opponent would be grabbing you and might not launch away like that. Doesn't negate what I'm saying though.

EO

There is no "internal" or "short power" that is different than what everyone else is using in any other high level athletic competition. If anything, elite level competitive athletes have more of this than any recreational martial artist or teacher who hasn't competed at the elite levels.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no "internal" or "short power" ...

The short power does exist. It's quite useful in the grip fight and mostly used for defense and counter (not very useful for offense in wrestling).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9woHnhcNfY

[faxiapreta]

I think what is lacking in this discussion of internal/external is that we can say, this looks like this or this looks like that, but what's missing is that you can't really see "internal" unless you really know what to look for...you can really only differentiate when you FEEL the difference. This is why we laugh at people who learn from DVDs. Yes, you know the shape, the external part, but you don't know how it's supposed to feel--the kinetics of it. Big limitation of discussing MA on this forum.

And that is why for someone to demonstrate high level skills, they must be done against other high level practitioners who are attempting to do the same thing.

[faxiapreta]

The short power does exist. It's quite useful in the grip fight and mostly used for defense and counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9woHnhcNfY


Really? You think that was real?

Again, use your brain. There is a reason you don't see that happening in any kind of competition... because it doesn't work. It would be great if it did, and people who competed would love to be able to do that. The fact is, it doesn't, though, and that's why you don't see it, other than in demos where the "opponent" jumps away.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"short power" is simply an explosive use of force over a short distance.
Boxers show it every time they do a "short hook" or short uppercut.
Hockey players do it every time they do a wicked wrist shot.
Wrestlers do it every time they give another wrestler the turkish oil check !

[YouKnowWho]

Really? You think that was real?

That's one of the many effective counters against a "hip throw". I had used it many times to against my opponent myself. If your body can vibrate like a fish, it will be very difficult for your opponent to apply his throws on you. But the "body vibration" ability is not that easy to develop.

[faxiapreta]

That's one of the many effective counters against a "hip throw". I had used it many times myself. If your body can vibrate like a fish, it will be very difficult for your opponent to apply his throws on you. But the "body vibration" ability is not that easy to develop.

:rolleyes: Oh boy.

Please show an instance of this being used in a competitive environment.

[YouKnowWho]

:rolleyes: Oh boy.

Please show an instance of this being used in a competitive environment.
I don't care whether others use this or not. I can only speak from my personal experience. If you train it, you will have. If you don't, you will not. believe or not is not my concern.

[faxiapreta]

I don't care whether others use this or not. I can only speak from my personal experience.

OK, fair enough. You've said you train with the Ohio State wrestling team. Please show that technique in a sparring match with one or two of their guys.

[YouKnowWho]

OK, fair enough. You've said you train with the Ohio State wrestling team. Please show that technique in a sparring match with one or two of their guys.

I don't know they trained "hip throw" or not but I have never seen them used "hip throw".

[faxiapreta]

Those guys don't use "hip throw".

Every college wrestler knows some version of a hip throw, even though they may not use it very much. All you have to do is ask them to incorporate hip throws into a sparring session with you. Any collegiate level wrestler will be able to do this.

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure what you want to say here. I have no desire to convince you that TCMA skill is also as effective as the non-TCMA skill. I don't mind to share my information here but I have no desire to change people's opinion toward TCMA.

[Golden Arms]

I don't know who faxiapreta is, but I do know who YouKnowWho is. Faxiapreta, do you know who he is?

[faxiapreta]

I don't know who faxiapreta is, but I do know who YouKnowWho is. Faxiapreta, do you know who he is?

I have no idea, but in reading his posts and seeing the clips he shows, it doesn't really sound like he has a lot of hands-on, competitive experience.

Personally, I think he is trolling simply to get a reaction.

[faxiapreta]

Not sure what you want to say here. I have no desire to convince you that TCMA skill is also as effective as the non-TCMA skill. I don't mind to share my information here but I have no desire to change people's opinion toward TCMA.

I'm not arguing against TCMA in particular. I am arguing against a specific technique demo that you are posting.

If someone claimed that technique was from western grappling, I would argue the same thing.

Of course, someone claiming that was from western grappling would more than likely already have an example of a real-time application of it.

[Golden Arms]

Just for the record:

"John S. Wang, disciple of the grand master Chang, Dong Sheng (the Chinese wrestling king), has forty years of martial arts experience and has won competitions in the United States and China, including three United States heavy weight championships in Shuai Chiao (1982, 1983, 1984). Mr. Wang has taken the first US Shuai-Chiao teams to compete in Taiwan (1984) and Mainland China (1985). He has been teaching in Austin since 1972 and serves on the board of directors for the American Combat Shuai Chiao Association. "

[faxiapreta]

Just for the record:

"John S. Wang, disciple of the grand master Chang, Dong Sheng (the Chinese wrestling king), has forty years of martial arts experience and has won competitions in the United States and China, including three United States heavy weight championships in Shuai Chiao (1982, 1983, 1984). Mr. Wang has taken the first US Shuai-Chiao teams to compete in Taiwan (1984) and Mainland China (1985). He has been teaching in Austin since 1972 and serves on the board of directors for the American Combat Shuai Chiao Association. "

Great. Then it should be a simple thing for him to do to start posting clips of actual live, competitive applications of things instead of the compliant demos that he has been showing.

If he can't do that, he's probably not who he says he is.

[YouKnowWho]

Are you saying that ancient Chinese had not tested their wrestling skill to death? Anything that didn't work well had been thrown away long before you and I were born.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have no idea, but in reading his posts and seeing the clips he shows, it doesn't really sound like he has a lot of hands-on, competitive experience.

Personally, I think he is trolling simply to get a reaction.

John has competed but his views come from his "point of reference" which is TCMA and in specififc Shuai Chiao.
Yours come from BJJ and Wrestling and as such, the POR is a "different language".

[faxiapreta]

John has competed but his views come from his "point of reference" which is TCMA and in specififc Shuai Chiao.
Yours come from BJJ and Wrestling and as such, the POR is a "different language".

When people compete against others, there really isn't much in terms of "different language". Principles are pretty much the same.

[YouKnowWho]

posting clips of actual live, competitive applications of ...

Is this live enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dNDMgedIk

[faxiapreta]

Are you saying that ancient Chinese had not tested their wrestling skill to death? Anything that didn't work well had been thrown away long before you and I were born.

Great. Then instead of showing compliant partner demos, show it working in competitive environments. You are supposedly on the board of directors for an organization that supports/sponsors competitive events. You should have access to a myriad of real-time, competitive videos to make your points instead of the compliant partner ones you have been showing.

[faxiapreta]

Is this live enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dNDMgedIk

Yeah, that's perfect. Notice how you didn't see any of the fantasy techniques I been arguing against.

If you come from a history of competition, why the disconnect between what actually happens there and what is shown in your compliant demos? Are you simply trolling or trying to sell something "different" to people who are looking for secret shortcuts?

[Golden Arms]

Great. Then instead of showing compliant partner demos, show it working in competitive environments. You are supposedly on the board of directors for an organization that supports/sponsors competitive events. You should have access to a myriad of real-time, competitive videos to make your points instead of the compliant partner ones you have been showing.

I understand this line of reasoning, however its sort of like me asking if you have video footage of yourself eating breakfast. The answer depends on if you record it. I have trained for 16 years and have about 10 total minutes of footage of my training and fights, it just has never really been a priority.

[faxiapreta]

John has competed but his views come from his "point of reference" which is TCMA and in specififc Shuai Chiao.
Yours come from BJJ and Wrestling and as such, the POR is a "different language".

Notice how I have no argument with any of the techniques shown in the "Chinese fighting" clip he posted because, as the clip demonstrates, principles are the same in actual application.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When people compete against others, there really isn't much in terms of "different language". Principles are pretty much the same.

I've noticed that is really not the case.
Without a common reference, people tend to speak the language they know best.

[YouKnowWho]

The training stage is different from the testing stage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Notice how I have no argument with any of the techniques shown in the "Chinese fighting" clip he posted because, as the clip demonstrates, principles are the same in actual application.

I bet if you were to describe it and John was, it wouldn't sound at all a like, LOL !

[faxiapreta]

I understand this line of reasoning, however its sort of like me asking if you have video footage of yourself eating breakfast. The answer depends on if you record it. I have trained for 16 years and have about 10 total minutes of footage of my training and fights, it just has never really been a priority.

If you claim to be a competitive athlete and/or train competitive athletes and make a claim for which there seems to be no evidence, wouldn't it be a simple thing to get a clip of you or your athletes performing said techniques in competitions?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you claim to be a competitive athlete and/or train competitive athletes and make a claim for which there seems to be no evidence, wouldn't it be a simple thing to get a clip of you or your athletes performing said techniques in competitions?

Now THAT trancends "language" and I would really wish more people would do that.
Not holding my breath though.

[faxiapreta]

I've noticed that is really not the case.
Without a common reference, people tend to speak the language they know best.

I'm not really arguing that much about the words. I'm arguing against video clip demos which are done with compliant partners, but no evidence to support being done in real-time.

[faxiapreta]

The training stage is different from the testing stage.

That's fine. There's no problem with showing the training stage. The problem comes when you only supply evidence for the training stage. People who do both stages and have evidence for one stage can usually supply evidence for the other stage.

[YouKnowWho]

Let's start a new thread that everybody in this forum just put up a youtube clip for your last "street fight". If you don't have one then go to the street today and pick up a fight, record it, and put it up tomorrow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not really arguing that much about the words. I'm arguing against video clip demos which are done with compliant partners, but no evidence to support being done in real-time.

Can't argue with that, we have way too much of complacient demos being passed off as being more than what they are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's start a new thread that everybody in this forum just put up a youtube clip for your last "street fight". If you don't have one then go to the street today and pick up a fight, record it, and put it up tomorrow.

I second the motion !!

[Golden Arms]

If you claim to be a competitive athlete and/or train competitive athletes and make a claim for which there seems to be no evidence, wouldn't it be a simple thing to get a clip of you or your athletes performing said techniques in competitions?

I can't speak for him or anyone else on that, I simply wanted to make the point that not everyone loves to post clips of everything they do on the internet. I for example much prefer someone to meet me in real life, its usually more fun, both people come away with more knowledge much of the time, and it eliminates the whole "I would just do ____/that would never work on ____" dialogue.

I would think any of us that have competed regularly would be quick to recognize that how things look 3rd person is not always how it is experienced 1st person. I have seen people that appear slow watching them fight, but in front of them their timing and use of distance for example made them feel extremely fast. Hands on there is no way the ego can really obscure the results.

[faxiapreta]

Let's start a new thread that everybody in this forum just put up a youtube clip for your last "street fight". If you don't have one then go to the street today and pick up a fight, record it, and put it up tomorrow.

You are on the board of directors for an organization that sponsors competitions. Is that correct?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't speak for him or anyone else on that, I simply wanted to make the point that not everyone loves to post clips of everything they do on the internet. I for example much prefer someone to meet me in real life, its usually more fun, both people come away with more knowledge much of the time, and it eliminates the whole "I would just do ____/that would never work on ____" dialogue.

I would think any of us that have competed regularly would be quick to recognize that how things look 3rd person is not always how it is experienced 1st person. I have seen people that appear slow watching them fight, but in front of them their timing and use of distance for example made them feel extremely fast. Hands on there is no way the ego can really obscure the results.

Personally I like videos of how people train.
If I wanted to see competitions I can go see them anytime, person or TV.

[faxiapreta]

Let's start a new thread that everybody in this forum just put up a youtube clip for your last "street fight". If you don't have one then go to the street today and pick up a fight, record it, and put it up tomorrow.

What do posting street fights have to do with this?

You post a lot of complaint demo techniques that don't seem to have any evidence of working consistently under pressure. For someone who supposedly has a competitive background and is supposedly involved with an organization that sponsors, it naturally begs the question of why you wouldn't use the more persuasive application of competitive pressure if there was actually evidence for your claims.

[YouKnowWho]

That's fine. There's no problem with showing the training stage. The problem comes when you only supply evidence for the training stage. People who do both stages and have evidence for one stage can usually supply evidence for the other stage.
That's a fair argument, and I have used that to argue with others in the past. Here are some evidence for none training stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXI2_VlnZnc (single leg at 0.39, double legs at 1.12)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGep8v0-1iY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKCajefdw_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnpAHqOUlSQ

[YouKnowWho]

You post a lot of complaint demo techniques that don't seem to have any evidence of working consistently under pressure.
Will these clips contain enough "pressure"?

http://johnswang.com/Shanshou_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Shanshou_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Shanshou_5.wmv

[faxiapreta]

That's a fair argument, and I have used that to argue with others in the past. Here are some evidence for none training stage.

And notice how there is not one single example of the fantastical techniques you were making claims for.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXI2_VlnZnc (single leg at 0.39, double legs at 1.12)

Notice the pulling of the opponent forward to make him step forward on that leg for the single leg (the way it has to be done) vs. the way your compliant demo showed (which is the way it won't work).

On the double leg, notice the head up and outside vs. into the stomach in your compliant demo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGep8v0-1iY&feature=related

Notice no "stomach shaking counter" to the throw.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnpAHqOUlSQ

Notice how the guy can't finish the single leg because his head is on the outside.


There is a big difference between pretend techniques that are only done in compliant demos and ones that actually work in real application.

[YouKnowWho]

Notice no "stomach shaking counter" to the throw.
The competation clips can't record everything. I like to back up every word that I have said here. I have so many competation video tapes but since I'm in California, and my video tapes are in texas, it will be hard for me to come up everything that you have asked for.

Again, not all information will be proper to be exposed in the public domain.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Let's start a new thread that everybody in this forum just put up a youtube clip for your last "street fight". If you don't have one then go to the street today and pick up a fight, record it, and put it up tomorrow.

I'm down...it doesn't have to be against another man, does it?

[faxiapreta]

Will these clips contain enough "pressure"?

Yep, perfect. And, once again, no evidence for the techniques you were claiming. The closest you can see is the failure of the single legs when done the way you showed in your demo clips.


http://johnswang.com/Shanshou_3.wmv

Again, notice how he wasn't able to finish the single because he had been taught to keep his head on the outside.

One has to wonder at the disconnect between what actually happens in full contact matches and what you are "selling."

[YouKnowWho]

what you are "selling."

Are you saying that I have tried to sell something here? How much money have I made on this forum so far?

[Lucas]

i dont think he mean selling like that, but in that the idea(s) you are trying to impart.

like i try to sell you my way of doing things. no money just for you to accept my way.

[faxiapreta]

Are you saying that I have tried to sell something here? How much money have I made on this forum so far?

You are selling that TCMA, is somehow different. You have been selling this in your various demo clips.

The evidence that you have just provided clearly shows that it isn't when done in a full contact setting.

You don't have to make money to be selling something.

[YouKnowWho]

My intention to prove that TCMA method work is no different from MMA guys try to put down TCMA.

[YouKnowWho]

You are selling that TCMA, is somehow different. You have been selling this in your various demo clips.
If it's different, I can't say it's the same.

[bawang]

If it's different, I can't say it's the same.

it's the same.

[faxiapreta]

My intention to prove that TCMA method work is no different from MMA guys try to put down TCMA.

Well, you aren't doing a very good job with the demos you have been showing.

You would be a lot more successful if you entered your fighters into MMA events. Why aren't you doing this?

[YouKnowWho]

The evidence that you have just provided clearly shows that it isn't when done in a full contact setting.
All these years, I have tried to tell others that in "full contact setting", there is no difference between "internal" and "external". You just make me to feel that I'm arguing against myself.

[bawang]

Are you saying that I have tried to sell something here? How much money have I made on this forum so far?

sell me your secret to get a sexy white womans with the yellow hairs

[faxiapreta]

All these years, I have tried to tell others that in "full contact setting", there is no difference between "internal" and "external". You just make me to feel that I'm arguing against myself.

Of course there is no difference.

But there is a difference between techniques that are only done in compliant demos and ones that are actually used in application.

[Lucas]

sell me your secret to get a sexy white womans with the yellow hairs

HUGE penus is the secret technique.

[YouKnowWho]

Of course there is no difference.

But there is a difference between techniques that are only done in compliant demos and ones that are actually used in application.
If I say that I agree with you 100% on this statement, can we stop this argument?

You may be a communist (MMA guy), but I'm a left wing liberal (Chinese cross training guy) and not right wing conservative guy (believe in Qi, internal power, ...).

It's very silly for "Bill Maher" to argue with "Ed Schultz" IMO.

[Hebrew Hammer]

HUGE penus is the secret technique.

Thank you Lucas! You promised not to say anything....

[bawang]

HUGE penus is the secret technique.

but lucas, i have the smalle painis. what i do pls

HLEP

[faxiapreta]

If I say that I agree with you 100% on this statement, can we stop this argument?

You may be a communist (MMA guy), but I'm a left wing liberal (Chinese cross training guy) and not right wing conservative guy (believe in Qi, internal power, ...).

It's very silly for "Bill Maher" to argue with "Ed Schultz" IMO.

Sounds good. When people start in with their *****, I'm out anyway.

[bawang]

JOHN WANF
HEY YOU

if u so good in cihnese judo, why you no have the big muscle like block resnar?

[YouKnowWho]

JOHN WANF
HEY YOU

if u so good in cihnese judo, why you no have the big muscle like block resnar?
To be a vegetarian can make you to lose some muscle mass. People used to call me, "Men of Steel" (I'm bragging again). When I go back to Texas, I'll find some clip to show you how much muscle that I used to have (don't get any wrong idea here). :D

By the way, your Chinglish is worse than mine.

[bawang]

if you show me pictur of you ahve big muscle, i will give you friendship knuckle touch.

[Lucas]

but lucas, i have the smalle painis. what i do pls

HLEP

rub more mayo!!!!!

[bawang]

i do not the understand.

[Lucas]

extra miracle whip. double dose. 2x5+6 reps = huge penus in 30 days

[bawang]

thanks. do you want friendship knuckle touch?

i use this method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXs3nN2Irts

[Lucas]

we can but you have to wash your hands first. :eek:

[bawang]

no.
fdgdgfgh

[Lucas]

fah q.....

[Hendrik]

A thread in the Wing Chun forum reminded me of these videos, fortunately they are still out there. I am not a Tai Chi guy but I felt these do a good job of showing some of the potential in the Chen style power methods. Thoughts?

http://youtu.be/pWBBhVLbDgk

http://youtu.be/eIc5NIfrnJs



Great example of Dan Dien internal rotate practice.

[Eric Olson]

Why weren't bawang and Hardwork108 banned long ago? They seriously diminish the quality of every thread they post to...and they post to every single thread!

EO

[Hebrew Hammer]

Why weren't bawang and Hardwork108 banned long ago? They seriously diminish the quality of every thread they post to...and they post to every single thread!

EO

Quality??? Over the internet? Methinks you have this mixed up with the Kung Fu Magazines Most Excellent Quality Forums...this one only guarantees run of the mill quality.

[bawang]

it was a great thread with great video, i was gonna say something very deep and meaningful. then john wang starts advertising his chinese judo, you come talking about "floating" and "losing to the flow" and ruined it.

you want me to say something like you? to raise quality of thread?

"he does have the power and grace of chan shall wong. although the tan ching looks forced, too tense. overall im somewhat impressed."
"i have also seen his yari kata. very powerful."
" it resembles bak choy, but we do it with more pong dong in the chong."
"chan gar tai chi kuen pai bin for sale"

[Brule]

Why weren't bawang and Hardwork108 banned long ago? They seriously diminish the quality of every thread they post to...and they post to every single thread!

EO

Dude, bawang's got some decent knowledge. I bet if you sat and talked to him you'd probably learn a lot. Besides, as the Hebrew said, it's the friggin internet.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4TnQf9LFXs&feature=player_embedded

internal exist every where else

so chen tai chi does not monoply it.

in short every style may sell internal.

:)

[David Jamieson]

Dude, bawang's got some decent knowledge. I bet if you sat and talked to him you'd probably learn a lot. Besides, as the Hebrew said, it's the friggin internet.

The Bawang advantage is that:

He reads and understands and has access to many Chinese martial arts texts. He can tell quickly which are pretentious pompous pieces of crap made up like a highly polished turd and let's us know.

His grade 4 Chinese education is equal to a great many martial arts masters of old, if not beyond their ability to articulate a given aspect.

Humour and irreverence have a special place in martial arts. When properly applied, they contribute greatly to the opening of the locks on the doors of humility. :)

Nobody deserves respect here beyond the most superficial of attempts and the lauding and kowtowing that does happen here is goofy, stupid, insincere and lacking in substance. It's an open forum, be open, be honest and if someone take s a tack that you disagree with, then argue with them to win your point.

As for HW108? I agree, he's a useless weirdo who contributes nothing. Ban that fugger, but keep bawang. At the very least, he's somewhat funny and has translation skills.

hw108 brings nothing to the table. He learned some fake ass south american version of something he calls kung fu and likes to spend his time here with his whole two years of wing chun chastising guys who have studied longer than he's been alive and have eaten more bitter than he is aware even exists. lol

the only one I advocate banning here as a matter of fact. I think Gene keeps him around as a benchmark for zen practice or something as in, if you can put up with that sorry little irritating piece of crap, then you can snatch the pebble out of the hand so to speak.

lol, I'm not there yet. :p

[SPJ]

right instrument for right music or job

flute plays titanic, excellent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVwlQOOtvoM&feature=related

flute plays baby, not so good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPgfAk1_-Gg&feature=related

so each to his own

some poster is like JB young and innocent

some poster is like Taylor Swift, teen and knows a bit

the rest of us are like mature and knows more or better.

--

:)

[YouKnowWho]

then john wang starts advertising his chinese judo,

I also do Chinese Karate too. You know, that chop chop stuff. I though you should be the last person who wants to give all the Chinese credit to the Japanese. :confused:

[bawang]

i was annoyed because you always say "this reminds me of move xxx in shuai jiao but we do it better".

you do know its 100% buku/bokogh? that before 1910 chinese were not allowed to do it?
you do know the imperial wrestling camp was created to compete in the mongol nadaam?

[YouKnowWho]

i was annoyed because you always say "this reminds me of move xxx in shuai jiao but we do it better".

Point me to a post that I said that.

[YouKnowWho]

you do know its 100% buku/bokogh?
Buku is Mongolian wrestling only.


that before 1910 chinese were not allowed to do it?


It may only be trained by the muslim people but "回民(Hui Min) - Chinese muslim" are Chinese too.


you do know the imperial wrestling camp was created to compete in the mongol nadaam?
2 reasons.

- Compete against the Mongolian wrestlers in the annual event.
- Served as the emperior body guards.

[bawang]

right on the first page you say tai chi isnt good for throws, it wont work. then you make wall of text about shuai jiao.


Buku is Mongolian wrestling only.


its a generic name for wrestling practiced by altai tribes.

chinese wrestling is extinct.

[YouKnowWho]

you say tai chi isnt good for throws,

Because the "leg movement" is missing.

[bawang]

traditional chinese wrestling had few leg manouvers because single leg was very common.

[YouKnowWho]

This is not a WC thread or Taiji thread. I don't believe when I mentioned Chinese wrestling here it will offend anybody.

[bawang]

all them fancy sweeps dont work when punching is allowed.

praising a non chinese martial art as an example of good chinese martial art is also humiliating.

[YouKnowWho]

all them fancy sweeps dont work when punching is allowed.

praising a non chinese martial art as an example of good chinese martial art is humiliating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dNDMgedIk

Please google the history of SC.

[bawang]

if you want the name game i can list just as many "leg movements" .

鬼腿子 - 1st quarter of the circle, you use your left shin bone to run into your opponent's right leg.
挽花- 2nd quarter of the circle, you use your right arm under your opponent's right armpit to pull his body to your right.
鹅翅跌- 3rd quarter of the circle, you use right leg to sweep your opponent's left leg.
朝阳抢背 - 4th quarter of the circle, you spin your body, turn your face, and "smoothly" guide your opponent all the way down to the ground.

just because its not in forms on youtube doesnt mean it dont have it

[bawang]

ok i understand now. you are saying chen bing is not making a "bridge" with the legs in his demo.


do you know what a single leg takedown is? do you know what is clinching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dNDMgedIk


they kept falling down because you tell them to stick their legs together.

This is not a WC thread or Taiji thread. I don't believe when I mentioned Chinese wrestling here it will offend anybody.

im confronting you. if you are wrestling expert why you go against beginner basics.

[Eric Olson]

The Bawang advantage is that:

He reads and understands and has access to many Chinese martial arts texts. He can tell quickly which are pretentious pompous pieces of crap made up like a highly polished turd and let's us know.

His grade 4 Chinese education is equal to a great many martial arts masters of old, if not beyond their ability to articulate a given aspect.

Humour and irreverence have a special place in martial arts. When properly applied, they contribute greatly to the opening of the locks on the doors of humility. :)

Nobody deserves respect here beyond the most superficial of attempts and the lauding and kowtowing that does happen here is goofy, stupid, insincere and lacking in substance. It's an open forum, be open, be honest and if someone take s a tack that you disagree with, then argue with them to win your point.

Look, this guy is a troll pure and simple. He has absolutely no knowledge of kung fu or is a forum member playing stupid. In a thread in the internal forum he said that a CLF Sao Cheui and Single Whip from Taiji were similar moves....what!? This is what I mean by lowering the quality of threads. If two people with some level of knowledge are having a conversation and someone steps in and intentionally throws in ridiculous gibberish, it lowers the value of of the conversation.

BAN HIM!

[David Jamieson]

Look, this guy is a troll pure and simple. He has absolutely no knowledge of kung fu or is a forum member playing stupid. In a thread in the internal forum he said that a CLF Sao Cheui and Single Whip from Taiji were similar moves....what!? This is what I mean by lowering the quality of threads. If two people with some level of knowledge are having a conversation and someone steps in and intentionally throws in ridiculous gibberish, it lowers the value of of the conversation.

BAN HIM!

Here's the rub.

Bawang may throw out gibberish, but it's about kung fu and he seems to be open to being educated on such things. If the only method of giving education is ad hominem attacks, then...well, that's not going to reflect well on the argument given or the responses to it.

He does have some knowledge of Kung Fu and yes, he plays stupid like a lot of us do because it's a forum and we should have a little fun here. :)

why don't you educate him as to why the single whip and the Sao Cheui are quite different? Alternately, you can educate your self as to why someone would say such a thing. :)

Bawang at least stays on topic and doesn't pollute threads with youtube diatribes about the Bush family being lizards, conspiracy theories, nazis on the moon and how much he hates America... because that would be the one you wanna ban.

lol, it's absurd for sure.

[bawang]

choy lee gays insist they dont have the normal haymaker, they have the special haymaker.

[goju]

Bawang makes good points often its just in layered in his sense of humour

[David Jamieson]

choy lee gays insist they dont have the normal haymaker, they have the special haymaker.

all that aside, how did you come to the conclusion that single whip is like a sao choy?

single whip is more of a pull and a heel palm strike or a set up for a throw.

sao choy is ...well, like you said, a haymaker.

[Frost]

Bawang when actually challenged can be one of the most insightful posters on this board, his knowledge is extensive…and his posts always fun to read on a boring day

it’s a fecking LARPER forum for the most part why take it seriously…….if anyone has the right to take it seriously its Bawang as it is his in heritage and culture not ours, and if he is happy making a joke here and there who are you to say he should be banned?

The other one…well how he hasn’t been banned who knows

[wenshu]

Look, this guy is a troll pure and simple. He has absolutely no knowledge of kung fu or is a forum member playing stupid. In a thread in the internal forum he said that a CLF Sao Cheui and Single Whip from Taiji were similar moves....what!? This is what I mean by lowering the quality of threads. If two people with some level of knowledge are having a conversation and someone steps in and intentionally throws in ridiculous gibberish, it lowers the value of of the conversation.

BAN HIM!

Should ban you for spamming the forum with your self-important "I'm the forum police" nonsense.

Someone posts something you disagree with and your response is that they should be banned because it doesn't conform to your banal sense of decorum or somehow violates your overly precious, delicate sensibilities?

I disagree with almost everything bawang says and he is still more informative and knowledgeable than you could ever hope to be.

[David Jamieson]

Bawang when actually challenged can be one of the most insightful posters on this board, his knowledge is extensive…and his posts always fun to read on a boring day

it’s a fecking LARPER forum for the most part why take it seriously…….if anyone has the right to take it seriously its Bawang as it is his in heritage and culture not ours, and if he is happy making a joke here and there who are you to say he should be banned?

The other one…well how he hasn’t been banned who knows

Finally you admit you're a larper!

bout time all you nancy boy "cage fighters" realized that sport is larping too.
larping with concussions. lol

you wanna fight? pick up a gun and go swallow some sand, that's fighting. :D

[bawang]

all that aside, how did you come to the conclusion that single whip is like a sao choy?

single whip is more of a pull and a heel palm strike or a set up for a throw.

sao choy is ...well, like you said, a haymaker.i read some really really old books and they said its a concept of a "whipping" punch with many variations. and in some styles of northern kung fu they dont have a chambered punch, but single whip as the basic punch, and reverse single whip as the reverse punch.
and tai chi manual said its a punch.

[Eric Olson]

Should ban you for spamming the forum with your self-important "I'm the forum police" nonsense.

Someone posts something you disagree with and your response is that they should be banned because it doesn't conform to your banal sense of decorum or somehow violates your overly precious, delicate sensibilities?

I disagree with almost everything bawang says and he is still more informative and knowledgeable than you could ever hope to be.

Actually, bawang didn't violate anything, he just posts stupid stuff that makes no sense. Apparently you can't distinguish.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Bawang when actually challenged can be one of the most insightful posters on this board, his knowledge is extensive…and his posts always fun to read on a boring day

it’s a fecking LARPER forum for the most part why take it seriously…….if anyone has the right to take it seriously its Bawang as it is his in heritage and culture not ours, and if he is happy making a joke here and there who are you to say he should be banned?

The other one…well how he hasn’t been banned who knows

It's a forum, I can voice my opinion. I think he should be banned, don't get worked up.

EO

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM
this style near my hometown has a lot of single whips, and almost all the variations. theres a chopping single whip, straight and reverse, "sao choi" one but strike with forearm, a grab and punch, and a punch two guys variation.

im trying to contact them and maybe learn sometime next year


It's a forum, I can voice my opinion. I think he should be banned, don't get worked up.

EO

i think you should rub catnip on your penus and stand in front of a tiger

[TenTigers]

Sounds good. When people start in with their *****, I'm out anyway.

THIS is why not only should Bawang NOT be banned, but he should be awarded the poster that has contributed the most to this forum award. (well, if we had one..)

Now we know that any time the "nothing you say has any merit unless you show ME a video" Troll arrives, all we have to do say Penus three times and click our ruby slippers together and "Poof!" he's off like a prom dress!
Bravisimo, Bawang!!!

[lkfmdc]

i think you should rub catnip on your penus and stand in front of a tiger

http://m-bestsoftware.com/screenshots/penus_enlargement__enlarge_penus.jpg

[Ozzy Dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM
this style near my hometown has a lot of single whips, and almost all the variations. theres a chopping single whip, straight and reverse, "sao choi" one but strike with forearm, a grab and punch, and a punch two guys variation.

Thanks for the Clip Bawang.

Makes sense to me as Ta Ji Quan is a Northern system and after all didn't develop in isolation, and from what I hear Yang Lu Chan learnt Da Hong Quan prior to learning Tai Ji Quan.

FWIW (and from what I remember) my Yang Shi Ta Ji Quan Shifu always referred to Single Whip as a strike extending to both sides simultaneously, its an expression of a type of Fa Jin, I think some people call it "through the Back" Jin.

Dave