Do Most Fights Go to the Ground? (Research conducted)

[kung fu fighter]

Part1

By Bakari Akil II, Ph.D.

People who have been following MMA, submission grappling and martial arts since 1994 have been aware of the increasing emphasis placed on ground fighting. Yes, a lot of the push is because ground-fighting experts are trying to convince people to become involved in their martial art or trying to attract more students to their studios. However, there is an extreme seriousness to their claims as well. People can get injured, maimed or killed if they aren’t able to defend themselves.

As a serious MMA or submission grappling fan you’ve probably either heard or read the following claims:

Ninety to Ninety-five percent of fights go to the ground; or

Most fights go to the ground

These claims have become a part of the lexicon of grappling gurus and their participating disciples, including me. However, is it true?

As a person who has been involved in some aspect of martial arts since I was nine years old, I have been apart of the tradition of accepting claims, verbatim, from martial arts professionals. Most of the advice has been wise, while other times it has landed me in situations I don’t want to talk about. So when I heard this claim coming from so many Jiu-jitsu and submission grappling experts in the mid 1990s I accepted it at face value.

However, as an academic, this statement over the last few years has begun to bother me. I began to wonder on what basis this claim can be made. Are there any studies that have been conducted to verify these assertions? Finally, I reached a standstill in my thoughts on the subject. I needed to know what was fueling the mantra that 90 to 95 percent of fights go to the ground. Is it an urban myth or is it for real?

So over a period of three months I designed an implemented an exploratory study with the expressed interest of trying to see if there was any validity in the claim that 90 to 95 percent of fights go to the ground or that most fights go to the ground. Over 300 street fights were analyzed during this study. The results were clarifying as well as totally unexpected.

For the purposes of my study, I needed actual fights between average citizens. However, it is nearly impossible to find access to enough physical fights between two people to analyze in person, especially in a timely and safe manner. Therefore an alternative method had to be chosen in order to study this question. This problem was resolved by using the readily available data uploaded and archived on the popular video sharing site, YouTube. The video sharing website provided the researcher with an abundant amount of data to analyze the question regarding how often fights end up on the ground and by what methods do fighters end up on the ground. For the purposes of this study, a content analysis was conducted where 300 fights were dissected over a two month period in order to address the question of whether 90 or 95 percent of fights go to the ground.

For a more detailed description of the abstract, literature review, hypothesis, methodology, findings and conclusions, contact bakil@mgc.edu.

Below are the research questions and the findings from the study:

Research Question

RQ1: What percentage of fights end with both fighters having gone to the ground at some point during the physical confrontation?

RQ2: What percentage of fights end with only one fighter having gone to the ground at some point during the physical confrontation?

RQ3: By what methods do fighters end up fighting off the ground? (i.e., punch, kick, takedown, push)

Findings

Although the findings cannot be generalized to the entire population; in this study both fighters ended up on the ground in 42% of the fights analyzed. This percentage increased substantially (72%) when analyzed for at least one fighter going to the ground.

So what do these numbers indicate for research questions one (RQ1) and two (RQ2)? It means that the people who have been making these claims are not far off the mark. They just have to be more specific. In other words, there is more than a good chance that if two people fight, one of them is going to end up on the ground (72% in this study). The chance that both will end up there is much less (42% in this study), but it is still substantial enough that one should focus on ground defense.

The third research question that needed to be answered is how do those fighters end up on the ground? The answer to that query is that in our study, 57% of the fighters who ended up on the ground were taken down by a throw, a trip or being pulled to the ground. Being pushed only accounted for 7% of fighters who ended up on the ground. So learning how to grapple and more specifically; how to apply and stop takedowns is vital to fighting.

The other most common way that fighters ended up on the ground was by being punched. This accounted for 35% of the total incidents where a fighter was sent to the ground. One other important point is for martial artists or others who might rely on kicking techniques. Out of 300 analyzed fights and 600 fighters, only one person fell to the ground because of a kick. However, that kick did result in a knockout of the person on the receiving end.

[kung fu fighter]

part 2

What happens when fighters hit the ground?

One very interesting finding from this study involved what happens to fighters once they do fall to the ground. At the following rates, the first person to hit the ground faced the following outcome. They either lost the fight (59%) or there was no discernible victor (33%), essentially a draw. Those who hit the ground second or remained standing faced different outcomes. They either won the fight (59%), nearly sixty percent, or no discernible victor could be declared (33%). This finding recurred repeatedly even if only one person went to the ground or if both people went to the ground. It even applied to situations where both fighters ended up on the ground and the person who initiated the takedown or pushed or punched someone in that direction landed on the ground first. In this study, fighters who hit the ground first were the clear victors in less than 5% of fights observed.

This indicates that in a street fight it is a major no-no to hit the ground first in any way. The findings were so one sided in this category it is highly likely that this is a major factor in determining who wins fights. Future studies should replicate these results.

Women should also be very careful to make sure that there hair is pinned up in an altercation as many takedowns involving women were due to their opponents (women) grabbing their hair (19%) and using it as a tool to control their head movement. In this study it was almost a guaranteed takedown if only one woman had control of the other woman’s hair. The other option was being pummeled. In one fight, a man’s ‘dred-locked’ hair was also used to throw him to the ground. I think further research would demonstrate that hair grabbing is not a habit related to gender, but availability.

Another finding that could support the argument that people should learn ground defense is that the first fighter to hit the ground usually lost the scramble for positional dominance. They were either quickly mounted, side mounted or had blows reigned down on them from many angles. Although the majority of the positional dominance observed would be considered crude from a trained martial artist’s perspective, it did demonstrate why ground training is necessary. Most of the combatants were at a loss of what to do when they were being controlled and subsequently pummeled.

Who’s Fighting Who?

In reference to the characteristics of the fighters in this study, demographic questions such as age, ethnicity or race could not be asked. However, records were kept using this researcher’s best judgment. Of the 600 combatants who fought, their opponents usually looked like them in a number of categories. Men fought men. Women fought women. Ethnicities or races appeared to be similar as in whites fighting whites, blacks vs. blacks, etc. Combatants also appeared to be the same age. Old men fought old men, teenagers fought what appeared to be teenagers and adults fought adults. This study suggests that a person involved in a street fight is most likely going to fight someone just like them.

Tips for: Avoiding Conflict or Inevitable Confrontations

Other interesting things to point out are that although some fights appeared to be spontaneous, most of them had an incubation period where many decisions led up to the ultimate physical confrontation. From studying these fights it is this researcher’s opinion that many of them could have been avoided. However, in cases where a fight is unavoidable, the following advice would be offered:

Never allow anyone to invade your zone of safety (a distance where they can quickly ‘sucker punch,’ push, pull or grab you without you being able to react).

Do not walk up to anyone ‘talking trash’ or allow them to ‘talk trash’ to you. Either way someone will most likely be hit mid-sentence.

Either fight or exit the scene. Make the decision quickly. Do not argue and do not posture up face to face, chest to chest or shoulder to shoulder. (Watch out for head butts!)

Do not try to fight more than one person, especially if you are alone.

Do not allow yourself to get mounted. (Where your opponent is sitting on your chest with both of their legs straddling your ribcage.) This was the absolute worst position for the fighters in this study; and most important:

Do not be the first person to hit the ground!

So, there you have it; an exploratory study to try to find out if 90 to 95 percent of fights end up on the ground. The results offered in this study indicate that 90 to 95 percent is too high of a percentage rate. It is probably closer to 42% where both fighters hit the ground and 72% where at least one fighter ends up on the ground.

In the final analysis, an overwhelming majority of fights did end where at least one fighter ended up on the ground at some point. As this was an exploratory study, more are definitely needed to explore this topic and other grappling or MMA related issues. However, what was probably the most important finding in this study is that if you are untrained and are the first person to end up on the ground in a fight there is a good chance that you will lose and the best you can hope for is that no victor can be declared.

Check out my latest book: A Vampire on the Mat at Amazon, Barnes & Nobles or Smashwords .

Check out my books: The Lazy Man’s Guide to Grappling and Grappling for Newbies on Amazon.com!

You can also check out my writings at Psychology Today: Communication Central

Bakari Akil II is an Assistant Professor of Communication at Middle Georgia College and received his Ph.D. in Mass Communications from Florida State University. He has studied no-gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for over three years and also holds a green belt in Judo. He trains with Team Praxis in Macon, GA.

[k gledhill]

Very informative.thanks i would agree with not going down in a street scenario. Had friends and Co worker's get badly injured.
I have also finished guys off easily if they go down
Groin stomps .head kicks. Or it has allowed me to face others involved.

[kowloonboy]

As I am not an expert in BJJ, Wrestling, or other ground fighting. I don't want to be on the ground if I can help it, if I can help it, I will do some damage, then get back up. Since if I am committed to a chock or other ground techniques, the attacker's mate might be able to take advantage of my position and kick or floor me when I am on the floor.

BTW, you research is very informative. And thanks for your research.

Just a question, why do you post this in Wing Chun Thread?

[faxiapreta]

Very informative.thanks i would agree with not going down in a street scenario. Had friends and Co worker's get badly injured.

Time and place for everything. More than likely they got "badly injured" because they didn't know what to do on the ground.

[k gledhill]

Time and place for everything. More than likely they got "badly injured" because they didn't know what to do on the ground.

Agreed. The little ground I know helped me. Also knowing not to perpetuate ground stuff and just get up ASAP.
Guys get surrounded like wolves on a deer they just chased down. Staying up is statistically bettter ; )

And any ground is simply overwhelmed by numbers.

[Frost]

so the upshot is try not to get taken down and if you do get back up quickly,

and we should worry about these things because nearly 75% of all fights end up with someone on the ground...... and almost 50% of them had both people on the ground......just as well i study grappling then :)

[k gledhill]

Time and place for everything. More than likely they got "badly injured" because they didn't know what to do on the ground.


so the upshot is try not to get taken down and if you do get back up quickly,

and we should worry about these things because nearly 75% of all fights end up with someone on the ground...... and almost 50% of them had both people on the ground......just as well i study grappling then :)

Not in dispute. But the guys who go down first don't do so well.

[faxiapreta]

Not in dispute. But the guys who go down first don't do so well.

A very small percentage of the population knows how to fight on the ground. Of course they don't do very well. First of all, the reason they went to the ground is generally because the other person put them there. Someone who doesn't have ground training obviously should not go to the ground. Unfortunately, when a person loses a fight, that's often where he ends up.

The situation changes dramatically when a person has ground training.

[Lucas]

i remember when this study came out, what always stuck in my mind was that youtube is not a fully dependable source for real life. they dont leave vids up there where people are shot, stabbed, broken or killed. you can only see the vids that actually meet the terms of agreements for youtube. granted its a grand effort with great results but not entirely realistic. can anyone find several fatal knife attacks on youtube right now? im not looking but id put money on no being the answer.

"Either fight or exit the scene. Make the decision quickly."

could not possibly agree with this anymore.


those that are not ground experts need to ask themselves; 'what will i do when i get taken down by a ground fighter?' in addition to working on attaining the skills needed, what will you do in the mean time? what if your meager ground skills dont hold up?

i would be interested in knowing statistics on how knives change it all up, in regards to final outcomes. i have pretty limited knowledge on the ground, something im working on, but at this point if i get taken down by someone who i feel is knowledgable on the ground they will need to make sure i dont stab them because I will try, and try my best. i keep a knife on me pretty much at all times, partially for this reason. a blade can equalize a lot of skill...especially if you have the suprise with it and take the initiative to use it.

however its also important to note that i dont start fights, or even look for them, and will always seek the peacful solution first, the withdrawl second, the quick KO/incap third and above all survival. some people you just know are violent though so being able to judge when to attack right away without delay is also important.

if a known ground fighter takes me down, thats akin to fighting an armed man unarmed for me, so drawing a weapon is the logical solution until my skillset can catch up to what i need. the trick though is that you never know what someone knows, unless you know. ;)

i dont think many people actually take knives into constant consideration.

there was a time when it would have been expected for everyone to have some sort of blade on them...it certainly would make for more general respect if you knew a fight often meant getting cut or stabbed

[k gledhill]

In NY everyone has guns so less arguments, when i first came to NYC I met a ex police officer at the harley shop I worked at who walked around with no less than 3 guns at any time, ankle piece, etc......another guy in the shop had a shoulder holster with gun one side, machette other:D very friendly here on the general streets. I have had prison guards stow their guns in my desk while training, my current students who are air marshals all carry too. Gun retention in grappling scenarios becomes a relevant point to work on. Many guys are shot with their own piece in grappling exchanges, etc...

[anerlich]

The study is interesting, but though it sounds like it was done seriously and I mean no disrespect, it still seems to me to have overtones of mockumentary about it (which is not a biad thing IMO).

[Dragonzbane76]

I preach this to my students religously. If you don't want to fight on the ground, learn to ground fight. A well versed person will keep you on the ground. If you know the ins-and-outs of it then it's much easier to get up. "easy" is a relative term. I had another thread on here about training all zones of fighting and I hold to that. A person that is not a grappler should learn the most about grappling in order to use what they have "stand-up." Use your streng. and do not let the fight be dictated by someone else IMO.

[Vernon]

It's nice to see the subject handled in a research based manner. Of course there are inevitable flaws (as the researcher pointed out himself) with the nature of the study, since running a strict control experiment for certain topics is sometimes problematic; especially when using indirect data such as YouTube.

I recall my JKD instructor stating recently that over the years he's talked to special forces and law enforcement types who have had a common denominator concerning the subject of the ground: One shouldn't as a usual first choice strategy want to end up on the ground, but knowing how to handle a fight at that range is vital.

I especially like the mention that, "This study suggests that a person involved in a street fight is most likely going to fight someone just like them." Since I'm dog ugly I try my best to only hang out with pretty women who don't look anything like me. LOL

[Frost]

Not in dispute. But the guys who go down first don't do so well.

so who do you think will hit the ground first all things being equal?
a grappler trained to deal with throws and takedowns or someone who isnt

[k gledhill]

so who do you think will hit the ground first all things being equal?
a grappler trained to deal with throws and takedowns or someone who isnt

people go down from losing balance, being hit in the head too. But a grappler would have a better response , sprawls etc...I teach students sprawling basic open palm strikes to lowered heads of guys coming in low. Palms have a stunning effect rather than a ko , but you can follow up after with kicks etc...Ive used this fighting.

[Frost]

As I am not an expert in BJJ, Wrestling, or other ground fighting. I don't want to be on the ground if I can help it, if I can help it, I will do some damage, then get back up. Since if I am committed to a chock or other ground techniques, the attacker's mate might be able to take advantage of my position and kick or floor me when I am on the floor.

BTW, you research is very informative. And thanks for your research.

Just a question, why do you post this in Wing Chun Thread?

so you don’t know anything about ground fighting but you will if you end up on the floor do damage and get back up to your feet…LMAO doing damage from bottom is the hardest thing to do in MMA/grappling, closely followed on the scale of hardness by getting back up from under a determined attacker if you have no specifically trained both of those things over and over you will be in for a surprise …..

And what makes you think a grappler will go or a choke or a submission or the one on the floor? me im throwing and soccer kicking your head or kneeling on you and smashing your head into the ground

[Frost]

i remember when this study came out, what always stuck in my mind was that youtube is not a fully dependable source for real life. they dont leave vids up there where people are shot, stabbed, broken or killed. you can only see the vids that actually meet the terms of agreements for youtube. granted its a grand effort with great results but not entirely realistic. can anyone find several fatal knife attacks on youtube right now? im not looking but id put money on no being the answer.

"Either fight or exit the scene. Make the decision quickly."

could not possibly agree with this anymore.


those that are not ground experts need to ask themselves; 'what will i do when i get taken down by a ground fighter?' in addition to working on attaining the skills needed, what will you do in the mean time? what if your meager ground skills dont hold up?

i would be interested in knowing statistics on how knives change it all up, in regards to final outcomes. i have pretty limited knowledge on the ground, something im working on, but at this point if i get taken down by someone who i feel is knowledgable on the ground they will need to make sure i dont stab them because I will try, and try my best. i keep a knife on me pretty much at all times, partially for this reason. a blade can equalize a lot of skill...especially if you have the suprise with it and take the initiative to use it.

however its also important to note that i dont start fights, or even look for them, and will always seek the peacful solution first, the withdrawl second, the quick KO/incap third and above all survival. some people you just know are violent though so being able to judge when to attack right away without delay is also important.

if a known ground fighter takes me down, thats akin to fighting an armed man unarmed for me, so drawing a weapon is the logical solution until my skillset can catch up to what i need. the trick though is that you never know what someone knows, unless you know. ;)

i dont think many people actually take knives into constant consideration.

there was a time when it would have been expected for everyone to have some sort of blade on them...it certainly would make for more general respect if you knew a fight often meant getting cut or stabbed

So your up for stabbing an unarmed man as soon as he takes you to the ground…have fun in jail, they might even be able to get you on premeditated murder since you a) carry a weapon at all times and b) have admitted in an open forum you are prepared to stab someone (hope no one here knows your identity!)

Knife’s change all areas of fighting, as long as you have the ability to deploy them, since most of grappling is about cutting down space and controlling limbs unless you actually train with knifes when grappling and train to deploy them whilst under attack it might be harder than you think, and whilst most grapplers don’t think about weapons, some do and some even carry them…want a bet as to who could do more damage on the ground with a knife and who would be more able to deploy and use one, a grappler or a non grappler?

from what i see most people carry knifes on their belts, in pockets orin their boots, when mounted or side controlled access to those parts are very difficult, especially if someone is raining down blows on you and instinct is to cover up.

In mount my legs would cover my opponents pockets and my body block access to the belt and legs for the most part, in side control my hip blocks the near side arm and my underhook the far side arm from getting to the body, you might be able to get access from knee on stomach but if you stop shielding your face from my punches to reach for your pockets most people with half a brain would realise something was up and start stomping your head (knee on stomach gives you so much ability to move that’s why its great for the street) even in guard a good grappler will be controlling your arms as he stacks you and pounds you.

So your best bet is to deploy when standing in the clinch before it hits the ground, but again easier said than done when you are being hit, moved around and your arms controlled at the bicep, elbow or with underhooks, or when you hit the ground but before they have control, again not easy as most throws/takedowns flow straight into pins if the grappler is good

Am I saying a knife isn’t a great equalizer, no…… am I saying grappling against someone with a knife is easy, no….. what I am saying is that without some grappling training deploying a knife can be harder than you think, and your argument is akin to me saying my stand up sucks as soon as someone goes to punch me im stabbing them over and over…..see how silly that sounds….only difference is that standing id have a better chance of getting my knife out and actually using it :D

[Frost]

people go down from losing balance, being hit in the head too. But a grappler would have a better response , sprawls etc...I teach students sprawling basic open palm strikes to lowered heads of guys coming in low. Palms have a stunning effect rather than a ko , but you can follow up after with kicks etc...Ive used this fighting.

yep people slip and fall over all the time, hence learning to grapple can really help you regain your feet against an opponent intent on hurting you

[m1k3]

people go down from losing balance, being hit in the head too. But a grappler would have a better response , sprawls etc...I teach students sprawling basic open palm strikes to lowered heads of guys coming in low. Palms have a stunning effect rather than a ko , but you can follow up after with kicks etc...Ive used this fighting.


LOL. This comment shows that you know very little about grappling.

So, you're teaching people who don't know how to grapple how to stop a takedown from someone else who doesn't know how to grapple.

No wonder you feel competent to post about grappling. :rolleyes:

[Sardinkahnikov]

i cant go to bjj class because its too expensive

now im afraid i will die in street combat

**** you helio

[k gledhill]

LOL. This comment shows that you know very little about grappling.

So, you're teaching people who don't know how to grapple how to stop a takedown from someone else who doesn't know how to grapple.

No wonder you feel competent to post about grappling. :rolleyes:

Not everyone who comes head down is a grappler...you assume every guy you fight out of a gym does bjj?

I have used it personally in fights. It works when you have bare hands and no gloves like out of a gym....
You want to break your knuckles on his head?

[m1k3]

Not everyone who comes head down is a grappler...you assume every guy you fight out of a gym does bjj?

I have used it personally in fights. It works when you have bare hands and no gloves like out of a gym....
You want to break your knuckles on his head?

LOL, no one who is coming head down is a grappler.

And no, if he comes in with a lowered head, I'm not going to break my knuckles or smack him with my palm either. I'm going to put him in a guillotine and put him to sleep. :D

Going for a takedown with a lowered head is begging to be choked unconscious.

Stick to Wing Chun, talking about grappling just shows how little you know about grappling. Although from what I'm reading not many people here are impressed with you WC either. :p

[faxiapreta]

Not everyone who comes head down is a grappler...you assume every guy you fight out of a gym does bjj?

I have used it personally in fights. It works when you have bare hands and no gloves like out of a gym....
You want to break your knuckles on his head?

Why would you use open palms to hit someone in the head when he is doing a football tackle style takedown? That won't stop anyone. You'd be much better off to either use some type of head control or used strikes or knees to the face. Palm strikes to the head do nothing.

[faxiapreta]

LOL, no one who is coming head down is a grappler.

And no, if he comes in with a lowered head, I'm not going to break my knuckles or smack him with my palm either. I'm going to put him in a guillotine and put him to sleep. :D

Going for a takedown with a lowered head is begging to be choked unconscious.

In the interest of fairness, lots of grapplers use a head down takedown... many BJJ guys never really get good at takedowns and continue to use bad "head down, bum rush" style in takedowns.

That being said, palm strikes to the head sure isn't going to stop anyone, even someone who isn't a grappler.

[m1k3]

In the interest of fairness, lots of grapplers use a head down takedown... many BJJ guys never really get good at takedowns and continue to use bad "head down, bum rush" style in takedowns.

That being said, palm strikes to the head sure isn't going to stop anyone, even someone who isn't a grappler.

Not true, a bjj'er will grab your shirt and jump into guard.:D

[k gledhill]

LOL, no one who is coming head down is a grappler.

And no, if he comes in with a lowered head, I'm not going to break my knuckles or smack him with my palm either. I'm going to put him in a guillotine and put him to sleep. :D

Going for a takedown with a lowered head is begging to be choked unconscious.

Stick to Wing Chun, talking about grappling just shows how little you know about grappling. Although from what I'm reading not many people here are impressed with you WC either. :p

And if he had 2-3 guys behind him? Oh yeah one on one....sure you can do anything you like. The articles posted in a VT forum I do VT.

[k gledhill]

Why would you use open palms to hit someone in the head when he is doing a football tackle style takedown? That won't stop anyone. You'd be much better off to either use some type of head control or used strikes or knees to the face. Palm strikes to the head do nothing.

I wouldn't for a charging tackle I said he's head down. I'm relating not resorting to a grappling counter for
A Guy advancing head down. VT IS A STRIKING SYSTEM
STANDUP. I can also do a guillotine if the situation allows it.
Horses for courses i have used it palm to head., Guy stands up holding his head in both hands like he has an instant. Headache.
I could care less if you believe me or not.

Yeah it wont STOP a Guy it will stun them...for other things .....

[faxiapreta]

I wouldn't for a charging tackle I said he's head down. I'm relating not resorting to a grappling counter for
A Guy advancing head down. VT IS A STRIKING SYSTEM
STANDUP. I can also do a guillotine if the situation allows it.
Horses for courses i have used it.

What? Who advances head down, other than in an 3rd grade school fight? Nobody does this.

[m1k3]

And if he had 2-3 guys behind him? Oh yeah one on one....sure you can do anything you like. The articles posted in a VT forum I do VT.

Why does everyone assume that grapplers are anti-social loners. I go out with my friends who many of them are grapplers also.

Yes the articles posted in a VT forum but it was discussing GRAPPLING. And lord knows there are a lot of misinformed people who will post things about how they will handle what a grappler will do without having a clue about grappling.

In case you didn't notice I didn't discuss VT at all, only you're miss-assumptions about grappling.

Do try to keep up, ok?

[YouKnowWho]

use bad "head down, bum rush" style in takedowns.
When your opponent shoots in, if his head is

- down, you can help his head to go down even lower.
- up, you can help his head to go up even higher.

When your opponent's head is up but his body is leaning forward, there is an untrual angle between his body and his head. You can take advantage on that angle and make that angle larger. The "head down" is not any worse than "head up". It's whether your opponent allows you to have free arms or not.

[Wayfaring]

i remember when this study came out, what always stuck in my mind was that youtube is not a fully dependable source for real life. they dont leave vids up there where people are shot, stabbed, broken or killed.

So from my perspective realistically in situations where people are shot, stabbed, broken, or killed, 100% of those situations will involve one person going to the ground. Some also will involve both going to the ground.

Probably excluding them from the study is a good thing, as it might skew the results statistically.

[faxiapreta]

If your opponent's head is

- down, you help him to go down even lower.
- up, you help him to go up even higher.

The "head down" is not any worse than "head up". It's whether your allow your opponent to have free arms or not.

Head up is much better. That's why grapplers are taught to do this and strive to be able to do takedowns with head up (although some never progress that far, since head down is more instinctive). There are many reasons why head up is better, most having to do with offensive efficiency and effectiveness, and some for defensive reasons.

[YouKnowWho]

When you use 'double legs", you want to use the top of your head to hit on your opponent's belly. Your head will be down at that moment.

When you shoot in with head up, if your opponent pushes your fore-head back, your body forward momentum and your opponent's backward fore-head pushing will put a lot of pressure on your neck. No matter how strong you may be, your neck is always a weak spot in your body.

If you can manage to make your opponent's arms "not to be free", head up or head down won't make any difference. This is why TCMA also emphasis on "knock on the door first before enter".

[Yung Apprentice]

I also think the numbers are a bit skewed because although someone may end up on the ground, does not mean that the fight is taken there. For instance, if a fight ends in a ko, obviously the fighter who was ko'ed ends up on the ground. Most instances a ko means the end of the fight. (MOST not all, of course there are exceptions and Im talking mostly in terms of a street fight)

Did the find end up on the ground? Yes. Does that make it a ground fight? No.

I can't count how many times someone was knocked down in a fight and was got back up before the other person was able to capitalize. Did the fight go to the ground in those instances, yes. Was it a ground fight? No.

[m1k3]

Y'all do realize we are just talking about the shot here. There's a lot more then just shooting, there are whole books written on setups for shots, arm-drags, headlocks, bear hugs, clinching, head control, touch and goes, 2 on 1s, Russian 2 on 1s, underhooks, overhooks and leg diving. And then on top of that there are a whole mess of throws and suplexes that can be done. And this can be further divided into grabbing or not grabbing clothing.

So its not that simple.


people go down from losing balance, being hit in the head too. But a grappler would have a better response , sprawls etc...I teach students sprawling basic open palm strikes to lowered heads of guys coming in low. Palms have a stunning effect rather than a ko , but you can follow up after with kicks etc...Ive used this fighting.

Statements like this are just wrong on so many levels when discussing how to handle a grappler.

Its sad to say but the dumb outweighs the funny.

[Frost]

When you use 'double legs", you want to use the top of your head to hit on your opponent's belly. Your head will be down at that moment.

When you shoot in with head up, if your opponent pushes your fore-head back, your body forward momentum and your opponent's backward fore-head pushing will put a lot of pressure on your neck. No matter how strong you may be, your neck is always a weak spot in your body.

If you can manage to make your opponent's arms "not to be free", head up or head down won't make any difference.

you do know that from day i grapplers are taught to
a) set the shot up
b) level change and
c) bull the neck all of which make your points mute

I know you do chinese grappling but sometimes i wonder about your expereince with western grappling

[faxiapreta]

When you use 'double legs", you want to use the top of your head to hit on your opponent's belly. Your head will be down at that moment.

No, you absolutely don't want your head on the opponent's abdominal area in a double leg takedown. The head should be up and on the outside.

The only time the head is in the abdominal area is with a single leg and, even then, the head should be up.


When you shoot in with head up, if your opponent pushes your fore-head back, your body forward momentum and your opponent's backward fore-head pushing will put a lot of pressure on your neck. No matter how strong you may be, your neck is always a weak spot in your body.

That's why you are not supposed to shoot without a setup first. Getting a takedown is at least 50% setup.

If you shoot in with the head down, it gets pushed down which is probably worse because you end up in a worse position.

[YouKnowWho]

you do know that from day i grapplers are taught to
a) set the shot up
b) level change and
c) bull the neck all of which make your points mute

I know you do chinese grappling but sometimes i wonder about your expereince with western grappling
I have dealed with many western wrestlers in the past (most of them are from the Ohio State University wrestling team). Since both "single leg" and "double legs" exist in both Chinese wrestling, and western wrestling, the set up may be different, but the principle and risk factor are the same.

Would you mind to share your experience on "how to set up a single leg by using the western wrestling"? It may be fun to compare the difference.

[faxiapreta]

you do know that from day i grapplers are taught to
a) set the shot up
b) level change and
c) bull the neck all of which make your points mute

I know you do chinese grappling but sometimes i wonder about your expereince with western grappling

Grappling is grappling. Chinese grapplers (who actually grapple) do the same techs as the western grapplers. All one has to do is watch the Chinese Olympic wrestling team.

[faxiapreta]

I have dealed with many western wrestlers in the past. Would you mind to share your experience on "how to set up a single leg"?

Apparently you haven't if you don't know the basic setups for singles.

[faxiapreta]

I have dealed with many western wrestlers in the past (most of them are from the Ohio State University wrestling team). Since both "single leg" and "double legs" exist in both Chinese wrestling, and western wrestling, the set up may be different, but the principle and risk factor are the same.

Would you mind to share your experience on "how to set up a single leg by using the western wrestling"? It may be fun to compare the difference.

There is no difference. That's why the Chinese Olympic wrestlers use the same setups as everyone else.

[YouKnowWho]

No, you absolutely don't want your head on the opponent's abdominal area in a double leg takedown. The head should be up and on the outside.
Not sure about the western wrestling method, but this is the Chinese wrestling method. You can notice the "setup" there by deflecting your opponent's both arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPXIfh9wzE


That's why you are not supposed to shoot without a setup first. Getting a takedown is at least 50% setup.

If you shoot in with the head down, it gets pushed down which is probably worse because you end up in a worse position.
Agree on this!

[YouKnowWho]

Apparently you haven't if you don't know the basic setups for singles.

How about if you describe the "western wrestling setup for single" and I then describe the "Chinese wrestling set up for single" so we can exchange opinion on this? It's not fare for me to explain in detail and put up clips. Sharing should be a 2 ways street.

[faxiapreta]

Not sure about the western wrestling method, but this is the Chinese wrestling method. You can notice the "setup" there by deflecting your opponent's both arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPXIfh9wzE

That's not a "Chinese" method. That is a type of spear, which can sometimes be used. You won't see it often because it is low percentange.

If you want to see "Chinese" methods, watch the Chinese Olympic wrestlers. And guess what? They will look like everyone else.

Any new variation or style that works is quickly taken up by everyone (i.e. Russion 2-on-1). There is no "Chinese" style.

[faxiapreta]

How about if you describe the western wrestling setup for single and I then describe the Chinese wrestling set up for single so we can exchange opinion on this? It's not fare for me to explain in detail and put up clips. Sharing should be a 2 ways street.


There is no "Chinese" setup for the single. Again, if there was and it worked, everyone else would be using it also (i.e. John Smith low single). Principles are universal. The setups for singles are the same for everyone.

[YouKnowWho]

That's not a "Chinese" method.

:confused:


There is no "Chinese" setup for the single.
:confused:

It looks like I have to go back to re-learn my Chinese wrestling skill.

My University of Texas at Austin Chinese wrestling team had use the "single leg" to defeat he Ohio State University Chinese wrestling team 2 years in a roll (1882 and 1983). Everybody in my team were expert in "single leg".


Principles are universal. The setups for singles are the same for everyone.
Would you please just use few English words to describe "single leg set up for western wrestling"?

[faxiapreta]

:confused:


:confused:

It looks like I have to go back to relearn my Chinese wrestling.

Setups are setups. The principles don't change.



Would you please just use few English words to describe "single leg set up for western wrestling"?

Half-man.
Angle.
Forward step.
2 on 1

[m1k3]

I think the problem is that there are several styles of Chinese wrestling known as Shuai jiao. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao

They use rules different than freestyle, folkstyle and greco. Which means they very well could have different set ups than what you see in western wrestling.

I know in BJJ I set up shots differently depending whether or not I'm wearing a gi.
Sleeve grabs and collar grabs for example.

So, its not the mechanics that sets up the single thats different, its the rules on what you can and can't use to set it up. If folkstyle grabbing my opponents singlet is a no no but in BJJ grabbing the gi is fine.

K?:D

[faxiapreta]

I think the problem is that there are several styles of Chinese wrestling known as Shuai jiao. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao

They use rules different than freestyle, folkstyle and greco. Which means they very well could have different set ups than what you see in western wrestling.

I know in BJJ I set up shots differently depending whether or not I'm wearing a gi.
Sleeve grabs and collar grabs for example.

So, its not the mechanics that sets up the single thats different, its the rules on what you can and can't use to set it up. If folkstyle grabbing my opponents singlet is a no no but in BJJ grabbing the gi is fine.

K?:D

Shuai jiao is jacket wrestling, is it not? Jacket wrestling is different than Olympic/Submission type grappling for takedowns. The mechanics change when clothing is used.

[YouKnowWho]

Half-man.
Angle.
Forward step.
2 on 1
Are you trying to hide your secret? :) Could you give more detail information that this?

In the past 30 years, the SC jacket dependency have been removed. We can compare the set up only in the no-gi environment.

[faxiapreta]

In the past 30 years, the SC jacket dependency have been removed. We can compare the set up only in the no-gi environment.

In that case, takedowns and setups would be no different than Olympic wrestling style takedowns.

[YouKnowWho]

Half-man.
Angle.
Forward step.
2 on 1

This may be a bit too abstract IMO. :p

I had used my "single leg" to take down 7 guys in a roll in one tournament (1982 in Chicago). If there is a new western wrestling single leg set up that I don't know, I will be very humble to learn.

[m1k3]

Personally, if I can get some head control and do a snap down when the head pops back up I dive for the single.

I use leg dives rather than shots because at 57 my knees are not in great shape. :)

But this is just one of a multitude of set ups you could do.

As stated before there are 2 on 1s, arm drags and touch and goes.

[faxiapreta]

In the past 30 years, the SC jacket dependency have been removed. We can compare the set up only in the no-gi environment.

Really?

Then what is this?

2007 China National Shuaijiao Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5WL5wK-g4M

[faxiapreta]

Are you trying to hide your secret? :) Could you give more detail information that this? .

There are no secrets. Competitive grapplers all know the same stuff.

[Lucas]

So from my perspective realistically in situations where people are shot, stabbed, broken, or killed, 100% of those situations will involve one person going to the ground. Some also will involve both going to the ground.

Probably excluding them from the study is a good thing, as it might skew the results statistically.

understand that. sorry didnt make myself clear. what i meant was that when one guy goes to the ground, and is followed, of the times that the individual hitting the ground first pulls a weapon, what were the statistical outcomes after the weapon was drawn. in that study 59% of the people who hit the ground first always 'lost' the fight. that doesnt take weapons into account from what i can see. the actuality of all scenarios involved would change that percentage of that statistic i believe. i do understand that it would likely be best as a seperate case study, but i'm just curious since weapons are a very real reality.

[m1k3]

There are no secrets. Competitive grapplers all know the same stuff.

Quoted for truth!

Lets not turn this into some sort of WC/VT/VC/WT lineage war. :eek:
:p

[YouKnowWho]

Really?

Then what is this?

2007 China National Shuaijiao Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5WL5wK-g4M

Some people evolved but others won't. The Sanshou/Sanda tournament is what I'm interested in and not the old sport SC tournament. To me, it's simply BTDT (I brought the 1st US SC team to compete in both Taiwan and China back in 1984 and 1985).

[YouKnowWho]

As stated before there are 2 on 1s, arm drags and touch and goes.

I assume you are talking about to

- use 2 hands to pull your opponent's leading arm (argee on this).
- arm drags (agree on this).
- touch and go (also agree on this).

This is what I'm talking about, don't give your opponent a pair of free arms.

[faxiapreta]

Quoted for truth!

Lets not turn this into some sort of WC/VT/VC/WT lineage war. :eek:
:p

Not only are the techniques the same. The mistakes that we all make, as well as the counters used against us are also the same. Competitive grapplers also know what these are because we've all made those mistakes and had the counters applied to us.

[m1k3]

Not only are the techniques the same. The mistakes that we all make, as well as the counters used against us are also the same. Competitive grapplers also know what these are because we've all made those mistakes and had the counters applied to us.

This is also why it is so hard to answer a question like how do you set up a single let take down. So much depends on what your opponent is doing and often you are trying to set up more that one thing at a time and looking for whatever opening he happens to give you.

That is why I find the "if he does A I'll do B" comments so stupid. It's not a static drill and he might be doing A just to get you to do B because he's ready for it.

Arrrrrrgh.

[Dragonzbane76]

western wrestling teaches to put the head to the side from my experience, not in the belly. When driving forward you use the neck muscles to drive to an angle on the double leg. never put the head down. keep your spine at a slight vertical incline so the head does not lean down. Seen many a people put the head down and end in a guillotine.

Why do people generally think that a "football" tackle is the shot? it's not, the set up for it is not brute streng. Has a lot of momentum but still not a diving lunge into someone.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no "Chinese" setup for the single.
This is the most basic Chinese wrestling single leg set up.

- use toe push kick to build a leg contact (you know where your opponent's leg is),
- use back fist to build an arm contact (you know where your opponent's arm is),
- push your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm (disable his both arms function), and
- enter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEnT5pKvik

[faxiapreta]

This is the most basic Chinese wrestling single leg. There is some different from the western wrestling approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEnT5pKvik

And there are a variety of reasons you will rarely or never see that type of technique being pulled off successfully.

[YouKnowWho]

And there are a variety of reasons you will rarely or never see that type of technique being pulled off successfully.

This is only the beginner level training. It works very well against "beginners". There are many other set up as well (such as 45 degree, 135 degree, ...).

[Vajramusti]

Sooooo- the study shows that if we use You Tube as the data base-then

So, there you have it; an exploratory study to try to find out if 90 to 95 percent of fights end up on the ground. The results offered in this study indicate that 90 to 95 percent is too high of a percentage rate. It is probably closer to 42% where both fighters hit the ground and 72% where at least one fighter ends up on the ground.

Joy chaudhuri

[faxiapreta]

Sooooo- the study shows that if we use You Tube as the data base-then

So, there you have it; an exploratory study to try to find out if 90 to 95 percent of fights end up on the ground. The results offered in this study indicate that 90 to 95 percent is too high of a percentage rate. It is probably closer to 42% where both fighters hit the ground and 72% where at least one fighter ends up on the ground.

Joy chaudhuri

The percentage doesn't matter. Imparting the fact that being on the ground and/or grappling was often an inevitable part of fighting was a great service to many people.

[Vajramusti]

The percentage doesn't matter. Imparting the fact that being on the ground and/or grappling was often an inevitable part of fighting was a great service to many people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Surely.

[Vajramusti]

The percentage doesn't matter. Imparting the fact that being on the ground and/or grappling was often an inevitable part of fighting was a great service to many people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Surely.

If you don't know how to prevent a a takedpwn the risks go up.

jc

[faxiapreta]

-------------------------------------------------------

Surely.

If you don't know how to prevent a a takedpwn the risks go up.

jc

Surely.

But the risks are lower for someone who can do takedown prevention, and also knows what to do on the ground.

[anerlich]

Things may be different in North America where there is a strong wrestling culture, but in other Western countries you are much more likely to find Rugby players. In Australia just about every male will have played at least a few games of rugby at school, and it is a very popular club sport as well.

Hence the prevalence of people prepared to use rugby style tackles.

I've been taught that you can successfully palm the head of a person tackling with the head low, but it's pushing the head offline and moving away, not striking. My BJJ/MMA instructor's go-to self defense move - underhook and head control - you can strike, knee, or throw from here. If the guy is rushing in with a head low, get an underhook, circle step off line, push his head down, and you can throw him a distance proportional to the speed of his rush (that's even an application of a section of TWC's CK).

Trying to hit a rushing opponent to stun or KO seems to me to rely on luck a bit much.

And if all of that fails, develop a good, effective sprawl. And of that fails, learn to protect the head and some basic pin escapes.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have been in about 15 ish street altercations and none have gone to the ground if that helps. However, it's better to be prepared and train at least some grappling. The best striker in the world with no grappling is a tackling dummy to any HS wrestler with a chin.

[Dragonzbane76]

The best striker in the world with no grappling is a tackling dummy to any HS wrestler with a chin.

truth as written.

[Frost]

I have dealed with many western wrestlers in the past (most of them are from the Ohio State University wrestling team). Since both "single leg" and "double legs" exist in both Chinese wrestling, and western wrestling, the set up may be different, but the principle and risk factor are the same.

Would you mind to share your experience on "how to set up a single leg by using the western wrestling"? It may be fun to compare the difference.

Sure as already said 2 on 1, touch and go, arm drags, underhook with head control, switch from a double to a single against the fence……they are standard across all wrestling nothing secret about them

Its comments like head down can be better than head up and a double leg should have the head in the centre that makes me wonder about the level of no gi wrestling you have been exposed to because head up on the out side is what every single wrestling coach, no gi grappling coach and even BJJ coach I have ever talked to or trained with has taught

[Frost]

Grappling is grappling. Chinese grapplers (who actually grapple) do the same techs as the western grapplers. All one has to do is watch the Chinese Olympic wrestling team.

Ok maybe I should have said his experience with competition style no gi grappling and its rules, for example im not sure if shau jio allows the knee to touch on double legs or doesn’t let you go to the ground when you double leg (hence the silly spear talkeown john posted later in this thread),
I am also not sure about his experience with western no gi grappling because reading some of his other ideas, head outside singles, head in the stomach on doubles, and from another thread his favourite submission being head squeezing from scarf I am simply not convinced about his level of knowledge about modern grappling without the gi and with ground work allowed

[k gledhill]

what do you guys here responding to thread who do ground think is best ? all good I know, but like the clip catch v bjj ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HoG_GQf1o&feature=related

[Frost]

what do you guys here responding to thread who do ground think is best ? all good I know, but like the clip catch v bjj ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HoG_GQf1o&feature=related

Cant view the clip BUT from a strict ground point of view (not including standing grappling and takedowns) BJJ rules supreme in by Gi and NO gi environments: ie the biggest no gi tournament in the world is the ADCC championships and at the last one every since category was one by a BJJ black belt no catch guys or sambo guys won anything, at the one before I think all but one weight ctagory was taken by BJJ blackbelts

(And im a no gi guy not a strict BJJ guy)

[Dragonzbane76]

yeah if you want to see ground played at the highest level... watch some of abu dhabi championships. Thats where you will see the best of the best.

[k gledhill]

And if we include standing and takedowns?

[Frost]

Free style or Greco for standing (probably freestyle as it includes both leg attacks and upper body attack)s….and cross trained with BJJ for the ground

That’s what all the successful no gi clubs I know train, BJJ on the ground (mixed with some free style pins and rides) and free style standing

[m1k3]

If you are looking at MMA or even "street fights" its good to add in some greco and/or judo.

The freestyle and no-gi grappling stances are too low. It's basically screaming "Please kick me in the face". You modify your stance to make it more upright and the judo and greco players excel here.

[k gledhill]

If you are looking at MMA or even "street fights" its good to add in some greco and/or judo.

The freestyle and no-gi grappling stances are too low. It's basically screaming "Please kick me in the face". You modify your stance to make it more upright and the judo and greco players excel here.

got it, [I cant read tiny text on smart phones sometimes...]:D

[Wayfaring]

I've been taught that you can successfully palm the head of a person tackling with the head low, but it's pushing the head offline and moving away, not striking. My BJJ/MMA instructor's go-to self defense move - underhook and head control - you can strike, knee, or throw from here. If the guy is rushing in with a head low, get an underhook, circle step off line, push his head down, and you can throw him a distance proportional to the speed of his rush (that's even an application of a section of TWC's CK).

Yep. That's a solid approach. Low front hand off the front leg for the underhook. That's also good because even if you get surprised and miss the underhook and they get the single grip, pushing the head offline is a great initial move for a single defense.

[Wayfaring]

what do you guys here responding to thread who do ground think is best ? all good I know, but like the clip catch v bjj ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HoG_GQf1o&feature=related

I like them both, and many times that is a false argument whether one is better than another - it depends on what quality of teacher you have locally in either. Most in either art that are good have extensively cross-trained with the other. For example, I do bjj, but I incorporate many of Erik Paulson's catch hooks for finishing. He's actually coaching for Brock Lesnar's team this year on that stupid reality show TUF that I'm ashamed to admit I watch once in a while.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFXOG2MKSsw&feature=related

Billy Robinson ? he seems to have an opinion that some things arent allowed in BJJ, ankle submission...I'm just repeating. The Kimura is a Catch wrestling double wrist lock taught to Kimura, etc....?

just curious.

[Frost]

I like them both, and many times that is a false argument whether one is better than another - it depends on what quality of teacher you have locally in either. Most in either art that are good have extensively cross-trained with the other. For example, I do bjj, but I incorporate many of Erik Paulson's catch hooks for finishing. He's actually coaching for Brock Lesnar's team this year on that stupid reality show TUF that I'm ashamed to admit I watch once in a while.

its not a false arguement catch uf ut was as good would have won competitions and grown and caught on it hasn;t for a good reason

and paulson has a bjj blackbelt

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFXOG2MKSsw&feature=related

Billy Robinson ? he seems to have an opinion that some things arent allowed in BJJ, ankle submission...I'm just repeating. The Kimura is a Catch wrestling double wrist lock taught to Kimura, etc....?

just curious.

as i say look at the stats on who wins what

[faxiapreta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFXOG2MKSsw&feature=related

Billy Robinson ? he seems to have an opinion that some things arent allowed in BJJ, ankle submission...I'm just repeating. The Kimura is a Catch wrestling double wrist lock taught to Kimura, etc....?

just curious.

Old man... sour grapes.

You could make an argument about the fact that BJJ generally doesn't allow heel hooks, external figure-4 toe holds, and neck cranks, though. However, many BJJ guys also train and compete no-gi, which does allow those things.

BTW, notice how he doesn't talk about the shortcoming of catch, which is that the match stops if one's shoulders touch the mat for 3 consecutive seconds.

[k gledhill]

Old man... sour grapes.

You could make an argument about the fact that BJJ generally doesn't allow heel hooks, external figure-4 toe holds, and neck cranks, though. However, many BJJ guys also train and compete no-gi, which does allow those things.

BTW, notice how he doesn't talk about the shortcoming of catch, which is that the match stops if one's shoulders touch the mat for 3 consecutive seconds.

hmmm 3 seconds :D seen that in another wrestling venue :D:D

thanks very helpful.

[anerlich]

You could make an argument about the fact that BJJ generally doesn't allow heel hooks, external figure-4 toe holds, and neck cranks, though. However, many BJJ guys also train and compete no-gi, which does allow those things.


figure 4 toe holds and other twisting footlocks are allowed at brown and black belt level in some gi competitions - e.g. one I refereed at on the weekend. Heel hooks, neck cranks and a few other techniques are disallowed at all levels.

Similar reasoning as to why attacks to the eyes and throat aren't allowed in striking competition.

Most BJJ students will learn how to apply such "forbidden" locks at some stage of their career, also how to avoid, counter or escape them.

[k gledhill]

figure 4 toe holds and other twisting footlocks are allowed at brown and black belt level in some gi competitions - e.g. one I refereed at on the weekend. Heel hooks, neck cranks and a few other techniques are disallowed at all levels.

Similar reasoning as to why attacks to the eyes and throat aren't allowed in striking competition.

Most BJJ students will learn how to apply such "forbidden" locks at some stage of their career, also how to avoid, counter or escape them.

Its interesting to see the ' forbidden ' locks used to set up other followup ...the Grovit!
Yeah eyes, when a Guy gets a thumb by accident it can be seen why.

[faxiapreta]

figure 4 toe holds and other twisting footlocks are allowed at brown and black belt level in some gi competitions - e.g. one I refereed at on the weekend. Heel hooks, neck cranks and a few other techniques are disallowed at all levels.

Externally rotated foot locks are illegal in BJJ tourneys at all levels.


Similar reasoning as to why attacks to the eyes and throat aren't allowed in striking competition.

Not the same at all. Heel hooks, externally rotated foot locks, and neck cranks are all legal in no-gi competitions.


Most BJJ students will learn how to apply such "forbidden" locks at some stage of their career, also how to avoid, counter or escape them.

They never really learn them unless they spar/compete with them. Simply learning them with a compliant partner is no more effective for learning than the techniques learned by the TMA guy who only practices drills with compliant partners.

[Phil Redmond]

. . Many guys are shot with their own piece in grappling exchanges, etc...
That's why I teach LI that my gun can become our gun. btw, NY has nothing on places where I've lived like CT and Michigan where ANYONE with no felonies can get a concealed weapons permit. They are way harder for the average citizen to get in NYC. I was a store owner in NYC and had to jump through hoops.

[k gledhill]

That's why I teach LI that my gun can become our gun. btw, NY has nothing on places where I've lived like CT and Michigan where ANYONE with no felonies can get a concealed weapons permit. They are way harder for the average citizen to get in NYC. I was a store owner in NYC and had to jump through hoops.

Yeah you have to prove you carry $25,000 in NYC.
In the UK it was easy as long as you where carrying from home gun safe to shooting range, you could carry concealed but unloaded, ammunition separate.

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah you have to prove you carry $25,000 in NYC.
In the UK it was easy as long as you where carrying from home gun safe to shooting range, you could carry concealed but unloaded, ammunition separate.
It was less than $25,000 when I had my store in Brooklyn.

[k gledhill]

It was less than $25,000 when I had my store in Brooklyn.

Yeah not sure exact $ now....high! Hah

[wolf3001]

I also think the numbers are a bit skewed because although someone may end up on the ground, does not mean that the fight is taken there. For instance, if a fight ends in a ko, obviously the fighter who was ko'ed ends up on the ground. Most instances a ko means the end of the fight. (MOST not all, of course there are exceptions and Im talking mostly in terms of a street fight)

Did the find end up on the ground? Yes. Does that make it a ground fight? No.

I can't count how many times someone was knocked down in a fight and was got back up before the other person was able to capitalize. Did the fight go to the ground in those instances, yes. Was it a ground fight? No.

The last actual fight I was in I was thrown through a door. Got back up and nailed the guy with a roundhouse to his lower ribs and again with a punch to the face. We exchanged blows and he then knocked me down he was short but out weighed me. I had hold of his arm as I fell and it seemed to me like he was going to try and pound me but I brought my foot up and was getting lined up for a groin shot when he backed off and quit his attack. I then left I didn't know at the time but I fractured his cheek and his rib. I got back up and was about to go after him but he wasn't attacking so I just left.

[mvbrown21]

That's why I teach LI that my gun can become our gun. btw, NY has nothing on places where I've lived like CT and Michigan where ANYONE with no felonies can get a concealed weapons permit. They are way harder for the average citizen to get in NYC. I was a store owner in NYC and had to jump through hoops.

Come down to Arizona sometime. Specifically Tucson. It really is the last frontier! The most laxed handgun laws in the country. You can take a gun just about anywhere including state buildings. They have to have metal detectors in order to deny your right. You can even take guns into bars unless the owner puts a sign up. Concealed weapons permits for everyone too with no class required

And we have an official state gun now, just passed. The Colt Single Action Army Revolver!

[anerlich]

Externally rotated foot locks are illegal in BJJ tourneys at all levels.



You're right - I missed the 'external' in your earlier post.


They never really learn them unless they spar/compete with them.

Sure. You might make an agreement to spar with them. My instructor slapped a heel hook on me during sparring for my blue belt grading to see if I knew how to escape (I did, though I am glad he wasn't going 100%). In the middle of a round when he made me tap multiple times, I did manage to sub a black belt once with a figure 4 footlock.

[k gledhill]

You're right - I missed the 'external' in your earlier post.



Sure. You might make an agreement to spar with them. My instructor slapped a heel hook on me during sparring for my blue belt grading to see if I knew how to escape (I did, though I am glad he wasn't going 100%). In the middle of a round when he made me tap multiple times, I did manage to sub a black belt once with a figure 4 footlock.

Why is it illegal? External ...

[k gledhill]

Come down to Arizona sometime. Specifically Tucson. It really is the last frontier! The most laxed handgun laws in the country. You can take a gun just about anywhere including state buildings. They have to have metal detectors in order to deny your right. You can even take guns into bars unless the owner puts a sign up. Concealed weapons permits for everyone too with no class required

And we have an official state gun now, just passed. The Colt Single Action Army Revolver!

I was there doing a seminar and was coming from the UK., land of guns? Hah.
It was eye opening, we also went to other west coast schools. At an after seminar dinner in San Fran I was sitting with 8 guys talking and the subject went to guns and how everyone carried.
Sure enough 3-4 of the guys where carrying! Hah

I took up shooting in London at clubs. Entering outdoor competitions for shooting practical pistol 9 mm - 38/357 mag
VT actually helped with isosceles grips. Our shuffle isn't far off UK military or swat duckwalk....pivoting and aligning etc....
One thing is not to use ygkym a lead leg is better and solid with a magnum round hah!

[faxiapreta]

Why is it illegal? External ...

If the lock is applied too hard or too fast it can tear the medial collateral ligament in the knee and/or cause an extra bad break of the ankle.

[Frost]

If the lock is applied too hard or too fast it can tear the medial collateral ligament in the knee and/or cause an extra bad break of the ankle.

yep one of our guys had his caeer ended by a heel hook, sprial fractured his spin and blew his knee

the problem is the time between realising you are in trouble and the break actually happening is so small its really dangerous

Strange in no gi its allowed more