Powerlifting VS olympic lifting

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the "types of power" we started discussing the merits of powerlifting and OL and since I didn't want to highjack that thread when I found this, I decided to make a new thread:


A Debate Between Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting as the Main Athletic Training Method

In the world of strength training, there are numerous methodologies that are used to increase the performance of athletes. Olympic lifting and powerlifting tend to be the most popular philosophies for coaches to incorporate because of their focus on power and strength development.

With their proposed popularity comes a little controversy. Many Olympic lifters and powerlifters proclaim their style of training as the “method of choice” for training athletes. Each method of training elicits a unique training philosophy, program, and outcome. For instance, “Olympic-style weightlifting is an excellent training method for developing power. It consists of two movements—the clean and jerk and the snatch. The derivatives of those movements are what make up the majority of the training exercises” (Gambetta 2007). Unlike its name, powerlifting is a training method that focuses on maximum strength. “Powerlifting is centered on the three competition lifts of the squat, bench press, and the deadlift; powerlifting develops strength in almost all major muscle groups” (Piper & Erdmann 1998).

The question that many strength and conditioning professionals and personal trainers try to answer is, “Which method is best to use when training athletes?” This article will try and answer that very question with responses from two elite strength athletes. Phil Sabatini is a nationally ranked Olympic lifter who is also the football strength and conditioning coach for the Virginia Military Institute. Monte Sparkman is a nationally ranked powerlifter who is the powerlifting coach for the Virginia Military Institute’s powerlifting team. Their candid responses to the upcoming questions will be used to understand the position of each style of weight training and determine the most desirable method to use when training athletes. Therefore, each respondent will answer six questions that are designed to provide insight into the training philosophy and training methodology for each discipline of weight training.

Question 1: What is the most important aspect of training, and how does your style of training support that aspect?

Sparkman: Absolute strength is the foundation for all other strength abilities. “Absolute strength controls all strength gains. Analysis of Hill’s equation shows that speed of movement is dependent on absolute muscular strength: v = Ft/m” (Simmons 2006). From this statement, we can assume that the most important aspect of athletic development should be focused on the training of absolute strength. Powerlifting is rooted in this philosophy. Powerlifters are constantly training to develop absolute strength and explosive strength. They (powerlifters) understand that without this basic strength, training cannot progress.

Powerlifting methods make the training of absolute strength a priority. It is my view that strength and conditioning coaches across the board do the same. Too many strength and conditioning coaches are quick to implement Olympic lifting methods into their training programs without first developing an athlete with a strong foundation of absolute strength training. This opinion can be support by a statement from Vern Gambetta’s book, Athletic Development–The Art & Science of Functional Sports Conditioning. “It has become very popular among the strength coaching community, especially in American football, to center strength training programs on Olympic lifting” (Gambetta 2007). In my opinion, this is putting the cart before the horse. You can’t develop an explosive athlete without first satisfying this common need for the development of absolute strength.

Sabatini: The most important aspect of Olympic weightlifting as it pertains to athletic performance is power specific force development or “speed strength.” Olympic style training involves “using heavy loads that are performed at a high velocity resulting in a high power output” (Hoffman, et al 2004). The term speed strength combines two very crucial attributes of athletic performance to express “power development.” An athlete’s power capacity includes “maximum strength, high load speed strength, low load speed strength, rate of force development, reactive strength, skill performance, and power endurance” (Hori & Stone 2004).

Through the training of Olympic lifts, athletes can increase their speed strength. This is done specifically because “during the pull phase of the clean and snatch as well as the drive phase of the jerk athletes extend their hips, knees, and ankle joints to push against the ground as hard and as rapidly as possible producing acceleration on the body and the barbell, which is done remarkably similar to jumping” (Hori & Stone 2004). Also, functional core strength is developed due to the large amount of overhead activity and movements with high loads away from the body’s center of gravity. Different training methods are used to increase performance by becoming stronger and faster. Specifically, different sports require different demands. One sport may ask, “How strong?” Another may ask, “How fast?” However, in terms of Olympic weightlifting, the question becomes, “How fast are you strong?”

Question 2: Specificity is an important variable within a training program. How does your method of training support the theory of specificity?

Sparkman: “Athletic activities usually require quick and powerful movements and, consequently depend on the development of explosive strength” (Siff 2003). If an athlete wants to enhance explosive strength, he must train absolute strength. The most important aspect of powerlifting is the development of absolute or maximal strength. According to Zatsiorsky, “maximal strength is regarded as a prerequisite for high movement speed” (Zatsiorsky & Kraemer 2006). This statement confirms the belief that an athlete must first develop maximal strength and make it a priority in training over high velocity movements in order to develop explosive strength.

Although Olympic lifting is the gold standard with regards to power development, I feel that powerlifting can develop explosive strength within the particular movement that the athlete is training. I believe that once that explosive strength is developed within the trained movement, it (explosive strength) can then be transferred to the field of play.

Sabatini: All sports require different amounts of muscle synchronization, balance, flexibility, and coordination as well as strength, speed, power, and metabolic development. Olympic weightlifting provides development in all these areas. While training for maximal strength can have a positive effect on performance, it can also have a “negative effect on movement speed and the ability of a muscle to display explosive effort” (Wenzel & Perfetto 1992). However, this does not mean that strength gains do not happen through training at high speeds. Wenzel and Perfetto characterized strength gains from high speed training as adaptations “due to an increase in the number of fibers recruited or a more synchronous firing of motor neurons” (Wenzel & Perfetto 1992). Also, in sports requiring short-term, explosive energy, Olympic training incorporates the necessary mechanism that will accommodate the production of the power-endurance component. This, in turn, will lead to a positive effect on athletic performance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question 3: Describe why powerlifting or Olympic lifting is a better approach for training athletes.

Sparkman: Powerlifting is a superior way for training athletes because it addresses this common need for developing absolute strength. Without a training foundation rooted in absolute strength, there is no potential for explosive strength development. Many strength professionals regard Olympic lifting as the method of choice for training explosive athletes. If that is the case, why are so many strength and conditioning professionals concerned with developing absolute strength? You must have the absolute strength foundation before any explosive strength development can occur.

Another reason that powerlifting training methods are superior to Olympic training methods is the trainability of the movements. “To achieve optimal return, you must consider that Olympic lifting is a sport. Those lifts have a high technical demand, but the skill is a closed skill that occurs in a narrow range of motion. The Olympic movements do produce tremendous power because of the distance the weight must travel and because of the weight and speed requirements. This power production is highly dependent on the technical proficiency of the individual lifter” (Gambetta 2007). The above quote illustrates the disadvantages and technical complications that are involved with Olympic style training. For athletes to reap the benefits of Olympic lifting, they must be sound technical lifters. Not only that but the athlete must be able to move a significant amount of weight relative to his body weight in order to produce a positive training effect. There aren’t enough qualified strength and conditioning coaches out there with the time or staff to properly give athletes the coaching they need to become proficient in the Olympic lifting exercises.

Sabatini: Olympic lifting is a better approach for training athletes, largely due to biomechanical specificity and speed of the movements. As mentioned earlier, not only do multiple movements in Olympic lifting (snatch, clean and jerk) closely mimic the movements involved in any type of athletic performance, but training the exercises does not compromise any explosive effort, much like the maximal strength training does in powerlifting. Although there is a definite initial explosive movement in maximal strength training or powerlifting, the exercises are performed at a slow velocity. Olympic lifting “may be superior to traditional powerlifting training because the exercises, while using heavy loads, are performed at a much higher velocity, which leads to a higher power output” (Hoffman et al 2004). This higher power output production could lead to a greater effect on athletic performance than the production that powerlifting could provide.

Question 4: What is the basic philosophy of your method of training? How does that affect the training of athletes?

Sparkman: The basic philosophies used in powerlifting methods are derived from the understanding that training explosive strength through the development of absolute strength is the most important component of athletic development. “All ball players run fast and slow and have quick changes in direction. This is very taxing on the central nervous system. If one wants to become more explosive, he or she must raise maximum strength” (Simmons 2005). Coaches who are using powerlifting methodologies to train athletes understand this important relationship between explosive strength and absolute strength.

It is also important to note that powerlifting methods are not just about lifting heavy weights. Plyometrics, or reactive training, is becoming increasingly popular in powerlifting training as a method to develop explosive strength. “It is essential that explosive strength play a large role in training, as it not only a means of developing absolute strength but also a method of raising physical fitness that is directed toward solving a specific sports task” (Simmons 2001). By combining absolute strength and plyomterics training methods, an athlete will have a more complete balance of the skills needed to perform at a high level on the field of play.

Sabatini: The basic philosophies used in Olympic weightlifting methods of training are based around injury prevention, power output, metabolic specificity, biomechanical specificity, high rates of force development, and muscle synchronization. Each of the fore mentioned components will directly transfer to the improvement of athletic performance. Through the training of Olympic lifting, the goal of the training session can be manipulated. For example, if the goal of the training session is to specifically train the biomechanics of a countermovement vertical jump, the majority of the exercises used throughout the training session would be cleans and snatches from the hang position and jerks. On the other hand, one can also train specific to the energy systems used in a specific sport. If a sport demands an explosive movement every 30–45 seconds such as football, the exercises performed in training would be completed specific to the interval of that sport or activity.

Also, because we know greater maximal strength could lead to greater power outputs, maximal strength must be trained. However, when incorporating Olympic lifting, maximal strength can be trained specific to the movement being performed. This can be achieved by training specifically through the use of clean pulls, snatch pulls, Olympic-style back squats, front squats, and other core multijoint exercises.

In terms of injury prevention, two critical areas to protect in athletics are the knee and shoulder joints. Due to the large amount of hamstring activity in Olympic lifting, which we know are stabilizers to the knee joint, Olympic exercises can play a major role in protecting the knee joint during performance. Also, because of the overhead activity in the training of Olympic exercises, the stabilizers of the shoulder joint (primarily the rotator cuff muscles, the trapezius, and the deltoids) are being worked, thus shoulder stabilization is accomplished in training. There are many philosophies regarding joint stabilization. However, I don’t think there is any better way to train stabilization than to stabilize.

Question 5: What are the safety concerns for your specific method of training?

Sparkman: Due to the maximal loads lifted while training for powerlifting, it is important to utilize proper lifting and spotting techniques. It is important that the spotter be of comparable strength level to the athlete he is spotting.

Sabatini: Because Olympic lifts are highly explosive, complex, open-ended movements, there is always a risk for injury. However, “missing” a lift correctly can easily avoid injury. Also, Olympic bumper plates are specifically designed to be high enough so they can “roll” over a lying body. Secondly, bumper plates are meant to be dropped, so not only does this discard the use of spotters, but it also prohibits athletes from being “caught underneath” the weight.

Question 6: Although you have defended and described your style of training, do

[sanjuro_ronin]

.

Question 6: Although you have defended and described your style of training, do you incorporate techniques and philosophies from other methods of training?

Sparkman: Although Olympic style lifting is viewed by many strength and conditioning professionals as the gold standard for training explosive athletes, it is my belief that in order to maximize athletic performance you must incorporate both Olympic style training and powerlifting style training. Explosive strength is crucial in just about every sport out there, but without absolute strength, explosive strength cannot flourish. Explosive strength and absolute strength training must be incorporated simultaneously in athletic development to maximize results. This idea can be summed up by Kawamori and Haff who studied the effects of an optimal training load for the development of muscular power. “Additionally, the development of some fitness components (e.g., maximal strength) should be a prerequisite to the development of other components (e.g., speed strength, power). Therefore, it is crucial to train different components in the logical sequence (i.e., periodization) so athletes can maximally develop muscular power toward the end of macrocycle or a yearly cycle when the most important competitions are scheduled while minimizing the risk of overtraining or injuries” (Kawamori & Haff 2004.

Coaches should not consider powerlifting or Olympic lifting as being better or worse than the other but rather as two pieces of the puzzle working together to enhance athletic performance as stated by Chui. “Rather than one or the other, it is the combination of both maximal strength training and explosive weight training, in a sequenced manner, that will elicit the best results for the strength and condition professional” (Chui 2007).

Sabatini: Within Olympic lifting, there are other facets of training that should be incorporated in order to address all components of performance enhancement. When considering that the sole purpose of the training is to enhance athletic performance, one must also consider all other attributes that my play a significant role in attaining that lofty goal. This includes training for muscle hypertrophy and maximal strength and training the mechanics of sprinting, changing direction, and any sport-specific adaptations that are demanded. Since Olympic lifting is the primary method of training being utilized in order to optimize training performance enhancements, the athlete must follow a well-rounded strength and conditioning program with a wide variety of demands.

Conclusion

In a perfect world, all facets of training (i.e. power, strength, speed, agility, balance, and conditioning) would be incorporated into an athletic strength and conditioning program. Therefore, both methodologies (powerlifting and Olympic lifting) are important entities for the development of athletes. “Weightlifting (Olympic lifting) and powerlifting should not be considered competing but rather complimentary methodologies” (Chiu 2007). A well-rounded training program should not be limited to only one area of emphasis but rather should incorporate all components that are specific to the athlete’s sport or activity. Although the philosophy of training may be different, the goal of training athletes should be the same. Enhancing performance and reducing injury should always be the centerpiece of a strength and conditioning program (Baechle & Earle 2000). In conclusion, the adaptation of both major training methodologies could illicit a greater return because both parameters are being trained (maximum strength and power). It is the inclusion and variation of training variables that will give added benefit to the athlete versus the exclusion and elimination of competing methodologies and standards.

Definitions

1. Explosive strength: The ability to exert maximal forces in minimal time (Zatsiorsky & Kraemer, 2006, p. 228).

2. Maximum strength: A measure of the maximal voluntary isometric muscular force which can be produced without a time limit or limit to the amount of weight lifted (Siff, 2003, p. 106).

3. Absolute strength: The maximum strength that can be produced by an athlete irrespective of body mass (Siff, 2003, p. 1).

4. Plyometrics: Muscle lengthening under tension with the external forces acting in the same direction as the motion. Also known as eccentric muscle action (Zatsiorsky & Kraemer, 2006, p. 228).

References

Baechle T, Earle R (2000) Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. 2nd ed. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics.
Chiu LZF (2007) Powerlifting Versus Weightlifting for Athletic Performance. Strength and Conditioning Journal. 29 (5):55–57.
Gambetta Vern (2007) Athletic Development: The Art & Science of Functional Sports Conditioning. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, pg. 188–89.
Hoffman, et. al (2004) Comparison of Olympic vs. Traditional Power Lifting Training Programs in Football Players. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18:129–35.
Hori N, Stone MH (2004) Weightlifting Exercises Enhance Athletic Performance That Requires High-Load Speed Strength. Strength and Conditioning Journal 27(4):50–55.
Kawamori N, Haff G (2004) The Optimal Training Load For The Development of Muscular Power. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18(3):681.
Mcbride, et.al (1999) A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 13(1):1.
Piper TJ, Erdmann LD (1998) A Combined Weightlifting/ Powerlifting Program. Strength and Conditioning Journal 19:15–16.
Siff MC (2003) Supertraining. 6th ed. Denver, CO: Supertraining Institute, pg. 145.
Simmons L (2001) Explosive Power and Strength. Retrieved: June 28, 2008 from http://www.westsidebarbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/PDF.Files/01PDF/Explosive%20Power%20And%20Strength.pdf.
Simmons L (2005) Reactive Methods. Retrieved: June 28, 2008 from http://www.westsidebarbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/PDF.Files/05PDF/REACTIVE%20METHODS.pdf.
Simmons L (2006) Explosive Leg Strength. Retrieved: June 28, 2008 from http://www.westsidebarbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/PDF.Files/06PDF/Explosive_leg_strength_NOV06.pdf.
Wenzel RR, Perfetto EM (1992) The Effect of Speed Versus Non-speed Training in Power Development. Journal of Applied Sport Science Research 6(2):82–87.
Zatsiorsky VM, Kraemer WJ (2006) Science and Practice of Strength Training. 2nd ed. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics.

Philip Louis Sabatini, CSCS, is a strength and conditioning coach at the Virginia Military Institute. His main priority is working with the VMI football program. Before coming to VMI, he was a graduate assistant at Ohio University in the area of strength and conditioning.

Monte Richard Sparkman Jr., is a lecturer of physical education at the Virginia Military Institute. He is a nationally ranked powerlifter who also coaches the VMI powerlifting team.

[wenshu]

Dr. Yuri Verkhoshansky (http://www.8weeksout.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/A-New-Perspective-On-Energy-Systems-Joel-Jamieson-CVASPS-2011.pdf)
“It would be wrong to think that the aim of physical preparation is only the development of muscular strength. The strength capacities of skeletal muscles are secured from the energy produced from the corresponding biochemical processes (metabolic energy).”
“Specific physical preparation means have to develop above all the capacity of the body to provide energy for effective specific muscular work”

I have grown weary of the broad consensus on various bulletin boards and elsewhere that powerlifting is the end all be all to building strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwudpprFus
I am reasonably certain these guys don't lift, and if they did their #'s would be rather impressive.

Not that I am in anyway against it as a means of strength development, I love lifting heavy sh*t, it is just not the only or necessarily most effective way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have grown weary of the broad consensus on various bulletin boards and elsewhere that powerlifting is the end all be all to building strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwudpprFus
I am reasonably certain these guys don't lift, and if they did their #'s would be rather impressive.

Not that I am in anyway against it as a means of strength development, I love lifting heavy sh*t, it is just not the only or necessarily most effective way.

Agreed, having done PL and OL AND strict BW lifting I can tell you that strength and explosivness can be developed in ALL methods.
PL tends to focus on that pure absolute strength, which is a great foundation.
OL adds the speed-strength element to it and BW lifting adds the more "functional" element on top of that.

[wenshu]

For a pure neophyte powerlifting has the attractive benefits of the simplicity and accessibility of not only the exercises themselves but the periodization resources. To say nothing of PL's dramatic immediate effectiveness.

Let's not bring the "functional" fad into this, open that can of worms and people will be in here clamoring about a diet of nothing but grass fed bison testicles and doing deadlifts for reps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a pure neophyte powerlifting has the attractive benefits of the simplicity and accessibility of not only the exercises themselves but the periodization resources. To say nothing of PL's dramatic immediate effectiveness.

Let's not bring the "functional" fad into this, open that can of worms and people will be in here clamoring about a diet of nothing but grass fed bison testicles and doing deadlifts for reps.

LMAO !!!
Indeed, the term functional shall be stricken from the books !
So let it be written, so let it be done !!


My point is that, every strength building protocol ( and that is what they all are) has its benefits and should complement each other rather than antagonize each other.

Personally if I get caught under a fridge while moving it I don't care what method the guy that gets it off me used to build his strength !

Beers are on me !

[Scott R. Brown]

When I was 19 or 20 I worked up to 3 sets of 3 reps in the single arm chin from a dead still hang, with absolutely NO kipping or swinging! I trained for it by doing 10 sets to failure of chins and pullups, 5 sets of each on one day, then a day off and 10 sets to failure of wide pullups, front and back with 50# weight on the next training day. I worked out M-W-F and sometimes Sat or Sun! In about 6-12 months I was doing the one arm pullups.

Rest was 30 seconds for 5 sets then about 10-15 mins of pushups, handstand pushups and roman chair sittups, then another 5 sets to failure. I never counted reps, Just as many pullups or chins as I could do, rest 30 seconds and then repeat for 5 sets.

My point is I trained almost entirely high rep but still obtained some absolute strength!

I weighed 165# at 5'9 1/2".

[Scott R. Brown]

Beers are on me !

Literally!!!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I was 19 or 20 I worked up to 3 sets of 3 reps in the single arm chin from a dead still hang, with absolutely NO kipping or swinging! I trained for it by doing 10 sets to failure of chins and pullups, 5 sets of each on one day, then a day off and 10 sets to failure of wide pullups, front and back with 50# weight on the next training day. I worked out M-W-F and sometimes Sat or Sun! In about 6-12 months I was doing the one arm pullups.

Rest was 30 seconds for 5 sets then about 10-15 mins of pushups, handstand pushups and roman chair sittups, then another 5 sets to failure. I never counted reps, Just as many pullups or chins as I could do, rest 30 seconds and then repeat for 5 sets.

My point is I trained almost entirely high rep but still obtained some absolute strength!

I weighed 165# at 5'9 1/2".

There is always SOME crossover.
But it probably would have taken you less time if the routine was more strength specific.

[Brule]

And probably even less time if you only trained internal energy and moved your organs. ie: a couple of threads down the page. :p

[wenshu]

I trained for it by doing 10 sets to failure of chins and pullups, 5 sets of each on one day, then a day off and 10 sets to failure of wide pullups, front and back with 50# weight on the next training day. I worked out M-W-F and sometimes Sat or Sun! In about 6-12 months I was doing the one arm pullups.

Rest was 30 seconds for 5 sets then about 10-15 mins of pushups, handstand pushups and roman chair sittups, then another 5 sets to failure. I never counted reps, Just as many pullups or chins as I could do, rest 30 seconds and then repeat for 5 sets.

My point is I trained almost entirely high rep but still obtained some absolute strength!


Define high rep. Were you doing 5/10 sets of 3-5 or closer to 10-12?

You did do a fair amount of maximal strength work with the weighted pull ups. So it seems like you did more of a combination. Did you ever test your weighted pull up 1RM after this cycle?

[Scott R. Brown]

Define high rep. Were you doing 5/10 sets of 3-5 or closer to 10-12?

You did do a fair amount of maximal strength work with the weighted pull ups. So it seems like you did more of a combination. Did you ever test your weighted pull up 1RM after this cycle?

20-30 on the first set, 5-10 by the last set, with the 30 seconds rest it was almost one looooong extended set!

The weighted ones were wide pullups only, front and back, 5 sets of each. started about 15-20 reps ended 5-7 reps.

wide pullups do not directly affecting chins btw.

I never did anything maximal except the one arm chins of course, I also did levers for time and planches for time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

BW exerices are basically a test of strength to weight ratios.
Who is stronger?
A that is 165lbs and can do 20 chins?
B that is 195 lbs and can do 10 ?
How many chins can the 165lbs do with 30lbs strapped to him?

[wenshu]

20-30 on the first set, 5-10 by the last set, with the 30 seconds rest it was almost one looooong extended set!

The weighted ones were wide pullups only, front and back, 5 sets of each. started about 15-20 reps ended 5-7 reps.

wide pullups do not directly affecting chins btw.

I never did anything maximal except the one arm chins of course, I also did levers for time and planches for time.

15-20 reps with 50#

um, ok.

I like you so I'll suspend my disbelief.

[Scott R. Brown]

BW exerices are basically a test of strength to weight ratios.
Who is stronger?
A that is 165lbs and can do 20 chins?
B that is 195 lbs and can do 10 ?
How many chins can the 165lbs do with 30lbs strapped to him?


15-20 reps with 50#

um, ok.

I like you so I'll suspend my disbelief.

Feel free:);)....I was doing 15-20 reps with a 45 pound kid hanging onto my back at age 17 at a body weight of 155#. And bench squated 285# for 2 sets of 5 and did 220# for 5 sets of 10, at the same body weight. I also did 50 bar dips on a bet! My bench, one the other-hand, has always sucked!!!!

The 3 rep one arm chins was at a body weight of 165#.

At age 32 [edit: not 32, age 34] and a body weight of 185# I did 10 sets of 10 reps with one minute rests, with 30# around my neck!

The heaviest I have pullup-ed was age 30 and a weight of 185# with 100# for one rep.

3 one arm chins with either arm is a feat that is hard to believe as well. I am right handed, yet I could also do them left handed.

I did them from a dead hang without any swinging or kipping, I refused to cheat. Neither did I move circularly during the chins. They were PERFECT form. I also did all my pull-ups and chins, not the wide ones, with my legs perfectly straight and toes at eye level in an "L" position!


Except for the one arm chins I have never believed any of these to be exceptional feats!

[Scott R. Brown]

My latest feats, all within the last 6 months, which I do not think are especially profound for chins btw, have been:

At age 51 with body weight of 200-205#:

1) 10 sets of 3 with 40#
2) 6 sets of 5 with 40#
3) 3 sets of 3 with 50#

[wenshu]

Did you eat rusty nails and broken glass for breakfast too?

[Scott R. Brown]

Did you eat rusty nails and broken glass for breakfast too?

LOL!!! 4-6 raw eggs for breakfast!

Tuna fish for lunch right out of the can!

Dinner, SERIOUSLY, a bowl of chocolate chips with reeses chips mixed in and low fat milk! I was had trouble keeping my weight up, so I ate alot of sugar for dinner and got the protein from the milk of course!

[wenshu]

I'm not Batman, but I can relate to the cookies for dinner.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm not Batman, but I can relate to the cookies for dinner.

Not cookies, just the chips in a bowl mixed together!:eek:

Wait...by then it was hard boiled eggs, the raw eggs were about 6 months before that time!

[sanjuro_ronin]

My latest feats, all within the last 6 months, which I do not think are especially profound for chins btw, have been:

At age 51 with body weight of 200-205#:

1) 10 sets of 3 with 40#
2) 6 sets of 5 with 40#
3) 3 sets of 3 with 50#

Excellent numbers dude.

[Scott R. Brown]

Excellent numbers dude.

Thank you! I lift alone and have done so since age 18, so I really don't have anyone to compare myself too! So, I have no idea what is good or not.

I have never done well on the bench and I haven't done squats or deadlifts for decades due to a lower back injury. I have just started doing squats, deadlifts, front squats, and snatch grip deadlifts from a platform, again for the last couple of years.

[Hardwork108]

I have grown weary of the broad consensus on various bulletin boards and elsewhere that powerlifting is the end all be all to building strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwudpprFus
I am reasonably certain these guys don't lift, and if they did their #'s would be rather impressive.

Not that I am in anyway against it as a means of strength development, I love lifting heavy sh*t, it is just not the only or necessarily most effective way.

IN fact you can get build power and strength without any lifting. You can do other resistance type exercises. You can also work on creating certain types of body unity that will not give you external strength but also help develop a specific type of fajing.

Not very well known exercises, but they have not stopped existing just because many people are unaware of them.

[IronFist]

There is always SOME crossover.
[But it probably would have taken you less time if the routine was more strength specific.

This.


And probably even less time if you only trained internal energy and moved your organs. ie: a couple of threads down the page. :p

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[IronFist]

IN fact you can get build power and strength without any lifting. You can do other resistance type exercises. You can also work on creating certain types of body unity that will not give you external strength but also help develop a specific type of fajing.

Not very well known exercises, but they have not stopped existing just because many people are unaware of them.

Um what, like Stone Warrior type stuff?

It won't develop anywhere near as much maximal strength as even average (non-powerlifting) weight lifting will.

[Scott R. Brown]

There is always SOME crossover.
But it probably would have taken you less time if the routine was more strength specific.


This.

Probably is the is the key word here. The fact is, there is no way to know for sure. But we also know, in general, a guy who trains specifically high weight low reps only, is not going to be doing 20-30 reps for sets. Everyone is genetically and temperamentally different. All training protocols, scientifically determined, are generalities based upon specific, and rarely real world, parameters. They should be thought of as good rules of thumb, but not as absolutes that apply to all people under all conditions.

At any rate I never intentionally trained to do one arm pullups/chins in the first place. I found out I could do them more or less accidently. I had a friend that could do one with each arm so I tried them and found I could do them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread made me curious so I had to try one arm chins, LOL !
So, at a BW of 179LBS ( yeah, I need to go on a diet, LOL), I did 3 one handed chins from a dead hang with my right arm.
The chins I did are the ones that I hold on the wrist of the pulling arm with the hand I am NOT pulling up, so I am not sure if those are the same like Scott did.
It was cool since I had never even tried to do them,
I normally do chins in a couple of different ways:
I superset them with dips for 3 sets of 6-8
Or
3 sets of 5 with 35lbs
Or
Using only my tongue I do 10 sets of 100 with 50lbs.
:D

[Scott R. Brown]

This thread made me curious so I had to try one arm chins, LOL !
So, at a BW of 179LBS ( yeah, I need to go on a diet, LOL), I did 3 one handed chins from a dead hang with my right arm.
The chins I did are the ones that I hold on the wrist of the pulling arm with the hand I am NOT pulling up, so I am not sure if those are the same like Scott did.
It was cool since I had never even tried to do them,
I normally do chins in a couple of different ways:
I superset them with dips for 3 sets of 6-8
Or
3 sets of 5 with 35lbs
Or
Using only my tongue I do 10 sets of 100 with 50lbs.
:D

I don’t wish to take anything away from your accomplishment, because that in itself is still a pretty good feat, but no, that is not how I did them. What you did is a good way to learn how to do true one arm chins.

Chin up as you did, then remove your hand and as slowly as possible lower yourself down, then repeat for as many as you can or choose to do.

When I did mine, my free arm was across my upper stomach held firmly against my torso.

[Scott R. Brown]

Or, if you can't lower yourself slow enough......

1) start with lowering as slowly as possilbe while still hold the wrist, then as you improve,

2) chin up holding the wrist. At the top, open the hand, but still hold it against the wrist while lowering slowly, then as you improve,

3)chin up holding the wrist. At the top, let go and lower as slowly as possible.

4) do that until u can do 5-10 and you will be able to do 1-3 true one arm chins with no assistance or cheating!

5) then video tape it and put it on YouTube so we can all give you props!:)

[Frost]

to answer the original post, plenty of athletes got strong and powerful just doing the powerlifts, i dont know anyone who got strong and powerful just doing the OL lifts

make of that what you will

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don’t wish to take anything away from your accomplishment, because that in itself is still a pretty good feat, but no, that is not how I did them. What you did is a good way to learn how to do true one arm chins.

Chin up as you did, then remove your hand and as slowly as possible lower yourself down, then repeat for as many as you can or choose to do.

When I did mine, my free arm was across my upper stomach held firmly against my torso.

Ah cool, I will try it that way.
Thanks.

[wenshu]

Mind your elbows. One armed eccentrics are murder on the tendons.

A good way to make it easier on the elbows is to hang a rope or towel from the pull up bar and have one arm grip the bar and the other gripping the towel far below the point of contact on the bar. Allows for a little assist.

[Scott R. Brown]

Mind your elbows. One armed eccentrics are murder on the tendons.

A good way to make it easier on the elbows is to hang a rope or towel from the pull up bar and have one arm grip the bar and the other gripping the towel far below the point of contact on the bar. Allows for a little assist.

I never had a problem, but I weighted only 165# at the time. I suppose it might hurt a bit at the 200# I am now.

I'll give it a try later on in one of my workouts this week and see.

[wenshu]

At the time you tried the OAC your tendons were probably already well conditioned due to the volume of pull ups you mentioned.

[IronFist]

One arm chinups like a boss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTOVJhXU5Q0&feature=fvst

(that's not me)

The most I've ever done is one or two reps starting from a dead hang with the non-working arm behind my back. It took a while of specific training to be able to do that.

I used to regularly do weighted chinups, although I've stopped in the last few years to try and correct an imbalance in my lats. I now only do left/right independent lat work.

[IronFist]

Or, if you can't lower yourself slow enough......

1) start with lowering as slowly as possilbe while still hold the wrist, then as you improve,

2) chin up holding the wrist. At the top, open the hand, but still hold it against the wrist while lowering slowly, then as you improve,

3)chin up holding the wrist. At the top, let go and lower as slowly as possible.

4) do that until u can do 5-10 and you will be able to do 1-3 true one arm chins with no assistance or cheating!

5) then video tape it and put it on YouTube so we can all give you props!:)

I did it first by doing weighted chinups.

Then by doing bodyweight chinups them with the non-working hand on the wrist.

Then over time, move the non-working hand down; bottom of the forearm, then on the biceps, then behind the back.

Just another method to try.

[Oso]

seriously, is there a cliff's notes to that????

seems like the basic scenario would be to develop a program starting with the 3 power lifts and after some decent numbers based on a strength-to-weight ratio computation are reached then move into the OL. Despite the arguements from both sides in that article it seems like PL will only develop minimal 'mathematical' power and PL will not develop the range of absolute strength that PL will.

Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to develop a schedule of periodization that had you moving back and forth between PL and OL. It seems like PL would be used to build the 'base' of absolute strength and OL to add the true mathematical power to it. Plateau's are hit in both, right? Switch to the other at a plateau might be a simple method of periodization would it not?

[GeneChing]

This has little to do with this thread apart from that it popped up when I searched "powerlifing".


Teen powerlifter wows Japanese commenters with massive biceps and doll-like face (http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/08/29/teen-powerlifter-wows-japanese-commenters-with-massive-biceps-and-doll-like-face/)
Preston Phro 17 hours ago

“You punch like a girl” was never a very good insult. Aside from being stupidly sexist, it ignores the fact that plenty of women are badasses who could take on nearly any opponent–male or female. And after you see this young woman’s physique, you’ll definitely start taking the phrase as a compliment!

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins7.jpg?w=450&h=600

Going by the name Julia Vins, the 17-year-old woman pictured above has been garnering quite a bit of attention online from the international body building community. The Russian body builder has posted numerous photos of herself on the European social networking site VK.com and has started to catch the notice of both Chinese and Japanese Internet users astounded by her incredible musculature and surprisingly doll-like face.

Here are some of the more impressive photos we found of the young Russian muscle-head.

▼ Something, something “gun show.”

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins8.jpg?w=450&h=660

▼ Seriously, we need a She-Hulk movie, just so this woman can star in it!

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins2.jpg?w=450&h=680

▼ When your abs look like that, no one complains about selfies.

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins9.jpg?w=280&h=630

▼ Do you think her parents even pretend to tell her what to wear?

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins4.jpg?w=280&h=580

▼ Ho-hum, yet another boot to the head.

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins5.jpg?w=580&h=435

▼ 10 bucks says you don’t even notice the guy in the background.

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins11.jpg?w=580&h=721
▼ Did…did she just intimidate the sun into setting?

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins6.jpg?w=580&h=600

▼ Dudebros, you just got owned.

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/juliavins.jpg?w=580&h=371

Japanese commenters were impressed with the Russian teen.

I wonder who’s stronger: her or Saori Yoshida [three-time Olympic gold-medalist Japanese woman wrestler].

It seems like someone this pretty will end up as a curling coach in her later years.

I want to be attacked by her!

She looks solid.

[The photo of her back with the sunset] kind of reminds me of Bruce Lee.

She’s a real Amazonian!

The Japanese version would be Rin Nakai.

In case you’ve never heard of the mixed martial arts fighter before, below is a picture of Rin Nakai. Before you even think about getting cheeky with her, it might be important to note that she’s won 14 of her 15 professional matches–and the odd one out was a draw!

http://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/rinnakai.jpg?w=580&h=326

Now, the question is, “Which of these girls would you most want to punch like??”

[Raipizo]

Just gotta say Gene, ew. I can stand toned and maybe a little 6 packs abs on a girl, but that's pushing it too far IMO lol

[Oso]

I don't think that young woman is by any means too ripped. when she's not flexing she just looks strong and fit.

her face is too fake looking in that first shot though.

[Dragonzbane76]

her face is too fake looking in that first shot though

I was thinking the same thing. Kinda a painted Barbie look or something.

[Oso]

or Kabuki I guess, which explains the Japanese interest?

[David Jamieson]

Strongest guys I've met are:

Farmers and Fishermen.

Especially the fishermen I've met from Sydney Nova Scotia. Holy crap. Body builders got NOTHING on these guys and dead lifters can only marginally compare. These guys are dynamically pulling loaded nets from the sea...it develops incredible root and strength.

Just saying. Not that I am against lifting, I lift myself to maintain and grow straight up strength. I'm willing to bet a summer on a turbot boat would put anyone here over the top strength wise though. :)

[bawang]

I was thinking the same thing. Kinda a painted Barbie look or something.

plastic surgery due to roid use

[Jimbo]

Strongest guys I've met are:

Farmers and Fishermen.

Especially the fishermen I've met from Sydney Nova Scotia. Holy crap. Body builders got NOTHING on these guys and dead lifters can only marginally compare. These guys are dynamically pulling loaded nets from the sea...it develops incredible root and strength.

Just saying. Not that I am against lifting, I lift myself to maintain and grow straight up strength. I'm willing to bet a summer on a turbot boat would put anyone here over the top strength wise though. :)

^this^

Anybody whose livelihood involves daily heavy labor develops freakish strength like you wouldn't believe. My dad grew up on a farm, later worked on a professional tuna fishing boat (back in the old days), and was blue-collar his whole life. All 5 of his older brothers were the same. Even long after he was old, retired and lost his bulk, he still had surprising strength, and he never weight-trained in his life, though he was a 2nd dan in judo. In old photos, he was built like Charles Atlas.

[Oso]

^this^

Anybody whose livelihood involves daily heavy labor develops freakish strength like you wouldn't believe. My dad grew up on a farm, later worked on a professional tuna fishing boat (back in the old days), and was blue-collar his whole life. All 5 of his older brothers were the same. Even long after he was old, retired and lost his bulk, he still had surprising strength, and he never weight-trained in his life, though he was a 2nd dan in judo. In old photos, he was built like Charles Atlas.

and, at the end of their day, they don't have time or energy for the gym.

[David Jamieson]

and, at the end of their day, they don't have time or energy for the gym.

^THIS^

*cue circle of life simba music* :p

lol

thanks for the laugh Oso.

[Scott R. Brown]

^this^

Anybody whose livelihood involves daily heavy labor develops freakish strength like you wouldn't believe. My dad grew up on a farm, later worked on a professional tuna fishing boat (back in the old days), and was blue-collar his whole life. All 5 of his older brothers were the same. Even long after he was old, retired and lost his bulk, he still had surprising strength, and he never weight-trained in his life, though he was a 2nd dan in judo. In old photos, he was built like Charles Atlas.

Internet rule #1: Photos or it didn't happen!:p

[Jimbo]

Internet rule #1: Photos or it didn't happen!:p

Nah, I wouldn't post any photos of my dad (or other family members) online...even if I knew how! :p. I guess you can either believe it or not.

[Scott R. Brown]

Nah, I wouldn't post any photos of my dad (or other family members) online...even if I knew how! :p. I guess you can either believe it or not.

<Dejectedly>

Okay! I guess I'll believe you!

Actually my grandfather's little brother was a farmer and when he was over 70 years old he picked up my 5'9" wife who weighed between 120-135# and carried her from the couch in the living room to her bed in the bedroom, without even flinching!

So, I know what you mean! And I don't have any pictures either!:o