A few questions for bawang

[bawang]

i emphasize the subconsiousness, not conscious.

like many people irrationally oppose captial punishment. you will find chinese have no qualms about it.

[omarthefish]

It isn't generally that charitable though. Hell they're talking about cutting medicare down there! It doesn't get much more uncharitable than clawing back seniors pensions.

That's the whole Protestant work ethic at work. American isn't "Christian" culture. It's mostly Protestant.

[bawang]

america is not a christian culture but christian beliefs are buried in the american subconscious.

for example humane treatment of animals and prisoners. thats irrational and pointless and inefficient.

[omarthefish]

i emphasize the subconsiousness, not conscious.

like many people irrationally oppose captial punishment. you will find chinese have no qualms about it.
True dat.

Most PRC Chinese are fiercely Confucian at heart. Even as they swear up and down they HATE the old ****, they still live and die by his rules.

I do like though that when a handful of babies and a mountain of pets (including my own) died from melanine poisoning in powdered milk and pet food respectively....they actually handed out capital punishment to some of the corporate goons involved. *golf clap*

I also love that while conciously, PRC Chinese swear up and down by western medicine, their actions are guided 100% by TCM superstition.

[SimonM]

The theoretical underpinning is Dialectical Materialism. Hegel, not Weber.



Yeah, Hegel was the underpinning of dialectical materialism. However Conflict Theory, which grew out of Dialectical Materialism is the underpinning of modern socialism. And if you want a conflict theory analysis of religion that goes beyond the classical Marxist handwave of "opiate of the masses" you have to go to Weber. Most educated socialists do. :D

[David Jamieson]

He also said, very directly, not to worship him, any part of his body, or anything directly related to him; that he was simply sharing what worked for him...

Context - it's important.

Indeed, but not in that particular sutra.
So, you would have to get more to get to that.

Does anyone not think the CR did any damage to the religiosity of the Chinese?
I think that time still resonates strongly throughout the country. I mean, look at all the pictures of Mao still hanging everywhere!

[SimonM]

That's the whole Protestant work ethic at work. American isn't "Christian" culture. It's mostly Protestant.

Well protestantism has been the mainstream of christianity for the last hand-full of centuries.

[bawang]

I do like though that when a handful of babies and a mountain of pets (including my own) died from melanine poisoning in powdered milk and pet food respectively

you will find that in those peoples eyes it was perfectly justified. the babies were not theirs, so they did not view the babies as human. this is primal atheism at work.

religion is irrational but it teaches inevitable punishment which is very good for governing society.

[wenshu]

Yeah, Hegel was the underpinning of dialectical materialism. However Conflict Theory, which grew out of Dialectical Materialism is the underpinning of modern socialism. And if you want a conflict theory analysis of religion that goes beyond the classical Marxist handwave of "opiate of the masses" you have to go to Weber. Most educated socialists do. :D

At first I was like "huh?"

Then I was all, "oh I misread,"

Now I'm like Whaaaaaaaa?

Needs more research.

[SimonM]

you will find that in those peoples eyes it was perfectly justified. the babies were not theirs, so they did not view the babies as human. this is primal atheism at work.


Irrationalism as key to morality disregards basically the entire 600 year history of humanist philosophy as well as 100 years of existentialist philosophy most of which pointed toward the conclusion that humans can be moral without an invisible sky giant hurling thunderbolts.

[SimonM]

At first I was like "huh?"

Then I was all, "oh I misread,"

Now I'm like Whaaaaaaaa?

Needs more research.

The interplay between Weber and Marx within conflict theory is much more complicated than direct opposition or cooperation. Weber's work depended heavily on Marx but his conclusions were not all the same.

Marxism is easy. Weberian Conflict Theory is mucky. That's why the more educated socialists tend toward Weberian Conflict Theory (and certain neo-marxists who were influenced by Weberianism) while more knee-jerk types tend to stick to the simplest works of Marx (such as the Communist Manifesto).

[David Jamieson]

It's a couple of thousand years old actually.



Technically the State/Party itself is God. lol. a couple of thousand years of mish mash is still a stew of disorganized thought. Universism is as convoluted as the pantheons of Rome or India. One religion, but everyone follows in a different way. lol


Considering that Buddhism is under the purview of the State Administration for Religious Affairs indicates that they do in fact view Buddhism as a religion. No they do not. They view it and promote it as a philosophical study. Communism does not accept religion pertaining to deities in any way shape or form, buddhism included. Let's not forget that Buddhism is Indian as well and not Chinese in origin, which leaves even more reason for the authorities to not condone it as a bonafide religion but rather they segment it and redact it all into a form of philosophy.


Please to elaborate upon the Sutras that indicate that Shi Jia Mo Ni Fo was an agent of a universal deity. . .
I would invite you to crack open a copy of the Lotus Sutra and read for yourself.

BUt here's a taste:


"World-Honored One, this old man with his great riches is none other than the Thus Come One, and we are all like the Buddha's sons. The Thus Come One constantly tells us that we are his sons. But because of the three sufferings, World-Honored One, in the midst of birth and death we undergo burning anxieties, delusions, and ignorance, delighting in and clinging to lesser doctrines. But today the World-Honored One causes us to ponder carefully, to cast aside such doctrines, the filth of frivolous debate.


"Now in this sutra the Buddha expounds only the one vehicle. And in the past, when in the presence of the bodhisattvas he disparaged the voice-hearers as those who delight in a lesser doctrine, the Buddha was in fact employing the Great Vehicle to teach and convert us. Therefore we say that, though originally we had no mind to covet or seek such a thing, now the great treasure of the Dharma King has come to us of its own accord. It is something that the sons of the Buddha have a right to acquire, and now they have acquired all of it."




The Buddhas possess rarely known,
immeasurable, boundless,
unimaginable great
transcendental powers.
Free of outflows, free of action,
these kings of the doctrines
for the sake of the humble and lowly
exercise patience in these matters;
to common mortals attached to appearances
they preach in accordance with what is appropriate.

As well as many other direct statements, correlations to the divine, etc etc.

[bawang]

Irrationalism as key to morality disregards basically the entire 600 year history of humanist philosophy as well as 100 years of existentialist philosophy most of which pointed toward the conclusion that humans can be moral without an invisible sky giant hurling thunderbolts.

you will find most of these people were educated elites.

the problem of humanism is you are moral by your own will and choice, and you must be educated. human society has a large number of sociopaths and psychopaths and telling them there is no purpose in life, there is no god basically gives them free reign.

[SimonM]

you will find most of these people were educated elites.

the problem of humanism is you are moral by your own will, and you must be educated. human society has a large number of sociopaths and psychopaths and telling them there is no purpose in life, there is no god basically gives them free reign.

Sociopaths find excuses within their religious framework from the simple "the devil made me do it" to the complicated "my actions were justified because of this convoluted scriptural house of cards."

There hasn't been any compelling evidence that links moral rectitude to religiosity.

[David Jamieson]

you will find most of these people were educated elites.



Up until 100 years ago or less, only "elites" were literate to any degree worth mentioning.

Common folk were fodder for the most part.

we live in a blessed age. most of us don't realize this. :)

[bawang]

Sociopaths find excuses within their religious framework from the simple "the devil made me do it" to the complicated "my actions were justified because of this convoluted scriptural house of cards."

There hasn't been any compelling evidence that links moral rectitude to religiosity.

sociopaths take advantage of any opportunity regardless. the difference is atheism encourages it.

if a person is biologically incapable of empathy or fear, and they are indoctorinated (i emphasize this) into a belief of a constantly watching god who can kill and torture them, and cannot be destroyed, they can function fine in society.

[wenshu]

lol. a couple of thousand years of mish mash is still a stew of disorganized thought. Universism is as convoluted as the pantheons of Rome or India.

So what does that have to do with your original point about New Age hippies?

Several thousand years of cultural beliefs is a stew of disorganized thought?

To your credit you do seem very familiar with disorganized thought.


One religion, but everyone follows in a different way. lol
No they do not. They view it and promote it as a philosophical study. Communism does not accept religion pertaining to deities in any way shape or form, buddhism included. Let's not forget that Buddhism is Indian as well and not Chinese in origin, which leaves even more reason for the authorities to not condone it as a bonafide religion but rather they segment it and redact it all into a form of philosophy.

Dude, do you have anything at all besides your own ill informed, unsophisticated opinions to back up these assumptions?



I would invite you to crack open a copy of the Lotus Sutra and read for yourself.

BUt here's a taste:


"World-Honored One, this old man with his great riches is none other than the Thus Come One, and we are all like the Buddha's sons. The Thus Come One constantly tells us that we are his sons. But because of the three sufferings, World-Honored One, in the midst of birth and death we undergo burning anxieties, delusions, and ignorance, delighting in and clinging to lesser doctrines. But today the World-Honored One causes us to ponder carefully, to cast aside such doctrines, the filth of frivolous debate.

"Now in this sutra the Buddha expounds only the one vehicle. And in the past, when in the presence of the bodhisattvas he disparaged the voice-hearers as those who delight in a lesser doctrine, the Buddha was in fact employing the Great Vehicle to teach and convert us. Therefore we say that, though originally we had no mind to covet or seek such a thing, now the great treasure of the Dharma King has come to us of its own accord. It is something that the sons of the Buddha have a right to acquire, and now they have acquired all of it."

The Buddhas possess rarely known,
immeasurable, boundless,
unimaginable great
transcendental powers.
Free of outflows, free of action,
these kings of the doctrines
for the sake of the humble and lowly
exercise patience in these matters;
to common mortals attached to appearances
they preach in accordance with what is appropriate.

As well as many other direct statements, correlations to the divine, etc etc.
I see no mention of a divine creator.

[wenshu]

Sociopaths find excuses within their religious framework from the simple "the devil made me do it" to the complicated "my actions were justified because of this convoluted scriptural house of cards."

There hasn't been any compelling evidence that links moral rectitude to religiosity.

Sociopaths don't need excuses for amoral behavior because they don't care in the first place.

[wenshu]

The interplay between Weber and Marx within conflict theory is much more complicated than direct opposition or cooperation. Weber's work depended heavily on Marx but his conclusions were not all the same.

Marxism is easy. Weberian Conflict Theory is mucky. That's why the more educated socialists tend toward Weberian Conflict Theory (and certain neo-marxists who were influenced by Weberianism) while more knee-jerk types tend to stick to the simplest works of Marx (such as the Communist Manifesto).

Ok.

Still not really sure what it is you are trying to say exactly. . .

[bawang]

with the right mind control sociopaths can be used as powerful tools of war.
iraq just defeated america with antique weapons ,an irrational belief in a god, and sh1tloads of sociopaths and psychopaths who love killing. in the mean time american soldiers are prone to being traumatized (even though they have crushing firepower) and are trying to deploy robots.

[wenshu]

iraq just defeated america with guerrilla tactics ,antique weapons, an irrational belief in a god, and sh1tloads of sociopaths and psychopaths who love killing.

There, fixed.

[bawang]

thats irrelevant. american army can easily kill every single person in the city, then they cant use civilians as shields.

[wenshu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

[bawang]

there was no guerilla warfare in the xinjiang and tibet riots were there?

wink wink

[wenshu]

That's cause China don't play.

The suppression of marginalized peasant riots in semi-autonomous regions of China is not really comparable to the US invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Are you trying to say that the US Strategy enables guerrilla tactics by not just laying waste to the entire population in the first place?

What does Iraq have to do with Max Weber?

[bawang]

theres a reason bin laden didnt declare war on china, even though afghanistan is next to china, and we occupy muslim territory.

[wenshu]

theres a reason bin laden didnt declare war on china, even though afghanistan is next to china, and we occupy muslim territory.

Indeed.

Al-qaeda fu*king knows better.

In any other country you would have had mujahedeen flooding into Xinjiang from all over; Chechnya, Bosnia, The Levantine, North Africa. They would have been all over that like white on rice.

I don't even think they so much as denounced that state of affairs in one of their ubiquitous audio tapes.

Mujahedeen need their fingernails to fire RPGs.

[David Jamieson]

So what does that have to do with your original point about New Age hippies? They too were covering all their bases.


Several thousand years of cultural beliefs is a stew of disorganized thought? In all cultures, yes. That's why there is no really clear or definitive human record. It's getting better though. :)


To your credit you do seem very familiar with disorganized thought.
Your attempt at witticism does not go unnoticed. I would say that you should finish up the other half of the course in it though. :)




Dude, do you have anything at all besides your own ill informed, unsophisticated opinions to back up these assumptions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Buddhist_Forum
http://www.eastern-philosophy-and-meditation.com/buddhism-religion-facts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism#Modern_developments_in_Chinese_Bu ddhism


I see no mention of a divine creator. You take things literally I see... Read through the wiki, check out the back writings as well...because it is wiki, but there is a lot of reverence of the buddha as a god. The sutras contain information in accordance with that as well.

[wenshu]

Let's review. Your assertion:



No they do not. They view it and promote it as a philosophical study. Communism does not accept religion pertaining to deities in any way shape or form, buddhism included. Let's not forget that Buddhism is Indian as well and not Chinese in origin, which leaves even more reason for the authorities to not condone it as a bonafide religion but rather they segment it and redact it all into a form of philosophy.


To back it up you just dump some links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Buddhist_Forum
http://www.eastern-philosophy-and-meditation.com/buddhism-religion-facts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism#Modern_developments_in_Chinese_Bu ddhism
In fact I don't think you even read the second link (sloppy citation though it otherwise may be)

The Buddha did not ask us to pray to God. He said that he himself was not a God but an ordinary human being who had awakened to his true nature. The Buddha even left unanswered the question whether there is a God at all.

Where exactly does it say anywhere in any of that
a. The PRC does not consider Buddhism a religion.
b. The Buddha is a god.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3566/china1.png
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5522/china2b.png
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1990/china3.png
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4080/china4.png
Making religion, making the state: the politics of religion in modern China By Yoshiko Ashiwa, David L. Wank
(http://books.google.com/books?id=9Fp8IWH2uXUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Making+Religion,+Making+the+State:+The+Politics +of+Religion+in+Modern+China.&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=RU_yTf_qMZP6swOPu-TGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)


You take things literally I see... Read through the wiki, check out the back writings as well...because it is wiki, but there is a lot of reverence of the buddha as a god. The sutras contain information in accordance with that as well.

Grandiose supernatural superlatives does not a god make.

You are taking those obvious metaphors literally.

While Buddhist cosmogony does allow for the existence of gods, they are still subject to the wheel of dependent origination. Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are considered above them.

The very idea of a prima causa is anathema to the core tenet of Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

[SimonM]

Japanese propaganda does not, necessarily, a good source on China make.

Just sayin.

[wenshu]

No, but frequent citations of National Chinese media, Government proclamations, and official quotes does.

Yeah that synopsis citing numerous Chinese sources on religion in China is really going overboard with the Japanese revisionist historical propaganda.

Give me a break.

Good historical research is good historical research independent of your prejudice.

[SimonM]

To be honest I wouldn't want to judge the book based on a few pages taken possibly out of context from the introduction one way or the other.

But when I toss out a one-liner followed by: Just sayin'

I'm usually trying to have fun with somebody. ;)

[wenshu]

I am, on occasion, susceptible to trolling.

stank you smelly much

[wenshu]

Here is some Japanese propaganda for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC4bPDp6cU

[Lucas]

http://www.photopumpkin.com/wp-content/uploads/crazy-japanese-invention-3.jpg