chain punching till my arms fall off

[Jaybo]

Hi guys

I have been training for a few months now. Last nights sesson was a killer. With punching weights we did 5 punches to the count, we did pyramid building from 10 to 50 then back down (i.e. 10 x 5, 20 x 5, 30 x 5 etc), followed by 100 (x 5). inbetween each set, we did a quick drill. This totals nearly 2000 punches. What is gained by punching to this degree? surely 50(x5) is plenty as a warm up? I guess it is for building the muscles that we punch with, i.e biceps, triceps and back?

[kowloonboy]

With punching weights

Sorry I am new to Wing Chun, what is punching weights?

[Jaybo]

They are just short lengths of 25mm diameter steel bar, about the width of your hand. Not that heavy to just lift but when chain punching you can feel the difference

[kowloonboy]

They are just short lengths of 25mm diameter steel bar, about the width of your hand. Not that heavy to just lift but when chain punching you can feel the difference

Thanks for your reply :)

[couch]

Hi guys

I have been training for a few months now. Last nights sesson was a killer. With punching weights we did 5 punches to the count, we did pyramid building from 10 to 50 then back down (i.e. 10 x 5, 20 x 5, 30 x 5 etc), followed by 100 (x 5). inbetween each set, we did a quick drill. This totals nearly 2000 punches. What is gained by punching to this degree? surely 50(x5) is plenty as a warm up? I guess it is for building the muscles that we punch with, i.e biceps, triceps and back?

Punching with weights is a good way to develop strength in the muscles that are required for such an action. I feel it's important to not go at full speed when the hands are weighted down and it's very important to practice form. This prevents injuries and fosters good technique.

Also, weighing down your hands makes your hands 'lighter.' Put on a pair of 16oz boxing gloves and go hit a couple rounds on the heavy bag. Then take them off and put on some MMA gloves. You'll be as fast as lightning!

[LoneTiger108]

Punching with weights is a good way to develop strength in the muscles that are required for such an action. I feel it's important to not go at full speed when the hands are weighted down and it's very important to practice form. This prevents injuries and fosters good technique.

... You'll be as fast as lightning!

Personally, I leave all the weights alone when practising chong kuen and I opt for using my blades :D

http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1372234304/Twitterpic1.jpg

[wingchunIan]

I don't personaly use weights when punching, but we do have a drill called the 550 where you cycle through clusters of chain punches none stop. Its a killer drill but its great for building stamina, punch speed and for encouraging students to relax the shoulders and arms during punching. In the same vein we also do timed continuous chain punches, 20 seconds is normally enough to fatigue beginers but you can realtively quickly build up to a minute or two.

[mvbrown21]

The methods above can be good to a degree for speed but can also cause some bad habits too.

Ultimately, the most important thing is a well-timed, well-executed punch. Your main focus, especially as a beginner, should be on proper form and hand/arm conditioning.

A wall bag will develop your fist/arm to take the necessary shock that you'll encounter when landing a solid blow on a human body. When you hit the bag make sure that your arm is not fully extended upon impact but don't be too bent at the same time, just enough to where your explode power will kick in. A wall bag is also important for focus. You have to be accurate in your straight punch, especially when you'll be turning and facing your opponent very quickly and quite often in a skirmish. It might sound mundane punching straight forward into a fixed object but it will improve it. You can also get the slightly stiffer wall bags and have a friend move around the room while holding it on his chest. This will help a lot too but your friend has to be willing to take a little bit of a beating too!

Practicing your punch in the air is the best way for developing form and will increase your power in it's own right as well. You don't need to go fast. Just make sure you come out on your centerline from start to finish. Your punch should end up around the base of your neck area with the knuckle of the thumb being in line with where your adam's apple is. Don't clench your fist, just put it in the shape of a fist. Your fist will be at a slight angle out when fully extended. If you're doing it right, this will be natural. When punching your fist should come up at an angle in a smooth continuous line, no hammer fisting. It helps beginners to imagine a string pulling up on the inside of their elbow until fully extended. The pinkie knuckle of your rear hand should rest right about where your solar plexus is in a relaxed position(at an angle) with your knuckles facing away from your body and your fingernails facing in. Do not rest your rear hand on your body.

Now this part is very important, when practicing make sure that both arms move at exactly the same time. You might think you're doing it right but this takes months, sometimes years to perfect. This is what will create your punch timing. If you have to record yourself until you get it right, do it. As the rear fist initiates, the extended arm rolls back. Neither one moves first but at the exact same time. Remember that and train that more than anything. This reason alone is why doing a blurry of punches can harm you and you'll see, hopefully, that as you progress a blurry of punches is a bad thing to do and will make you plateau quickly with your ability to control the opponent.

This video I have posted here is how chain punching should be applied in Wing Chun. This isn't about lineage or anything like that but a concept that came down from the top that is widely misunderstood.

http://fongswingchun.com/ChainPunchDemo.mp4

Hope this helps!

[kowloonboy]

A wall bag will develop your fist/arm to take the necessary shock that you'll encounter when landing a solid blow on a human body.

Since I am new, could you let us. What filling should we use inside the wall bag? Also should the bag be fill to the max like a pillow? Thanks. :)

[k gledhill]

Since I am new, could you let us. What filling should we use inside the wall bag? Also should the bag be fill to the max like a pillow? Thanks. :)

yellow beans are good for starters... fill 80% allow for impact to compress bag or you can split zipper etc...
Hit bag a few times [10-15 punches] and check in between your knuckles for a small red 'tattoo' mark aka a blood blister, forming from heat/friction under the skin. Stop ! before it bleeds on bag [hygiene] and it takes 3 weeks before you can hit again...
when you make red mark on fist turn to open vertical palm strikes, you will develop blister at base of palm same way if not careful, so stop and cool down. Check often...
next day add a few more punches, and so on...try 500 between forms, run 5 miles have bag in backpack, use bungee cord to strap to available tree , hit , forms, hit, forms hit tree too :D then run more..fitness just as important for punching...
You can make a narrow hanging bag out of an old jacket sleeve filled with small rocks/pebbles/shingle, wrap in gaffer tape for jum sao elbow in horizontal palm strikes .
For kicking fill wall bag [larger] with shingle/rocks etc....
No better object to hit and kick than the Thai long bag.


On another note, the fists pass next to each other, either side of the line not over and under, very important to repeat this early or you ingrain straightlines rather than sweeping , striking natural intercepting lines..iow lin sil di dar starts asa you do chain punch....forget fast punching , try good line sweeping strikes with body behind them.

[GlennR]

yellow beans are good for starters... fill 80% allow for impact to compress bag or you can split zipper etc...
Hit bag a few times [10-15 punches] and check in between your knuckles for a small red 'tattoo' mark aka a blood blister, forming from heat/friction under the skin. Stop ! before it bleeds on bag [hygiene] and it takes 3 weeks before you can hit again...
when you make red mark on fist turn to open vertical palm strikes, you will develop blister at base of palm same way if not careful, so stop and cool down. Check often...
next day add a few more punches, and so on...try 500 between forms, run 5 miles have bag in backpack, use bungee cord to strap to available tree , hit , forms, hit, forms hit tree too :D then run more..fitness just as important for punching...
You can make a narrow hanging bag out of an old jacket sleeve filled with small rocks/pebbles/shingle, wrap in gaffer tape for jum sao elbow in horizontal palm strikes .
For kicking fill wall bag [larger] with shingle/rocks etc....
No better object to hit and kick than the Thai long bag.


On another note, the fists pass next to each other, either side of the line not over and under, very important to repeat this early or you ingrain straightlines rather than sweeping , striking natural intercepting lines..iow lin sil di dar starts asa you do chain punch....forget fast punching , try good line sweeping strikes with body behind them.

Good tips Kevin

[Lee Chiang Po]

Physical training should be done at home or in a seperate training time or location. Kwoon time should be spent strictly for teaching and learning. You spend half your time doing PT and you get very little teaching and learning in. You pay, but only get what already belongs to you.

[mvbrown21]

On another note, the fists pass next to each other, either side of the line not over and under, very important to repeat this early or you ingrain straightlines rather than sweeping , striking natural intercepting lines..iow lin sil di dar starts asa you do chain punch....forget fast punching , try good line sweeping strikes with body behind them.

Kowloonboy: This is a lineage thing. Only train this way if you're going to end up in the WSL lineage, specifically the Philip Bayer line. I'm not going to pass judgement, it's neither here nor there, it's what you want personally that matters. Just know that they do many things very different.

In regards to the wall bag, I use brown rice. Brown rice keeps the bugs away for some reason. How you fill it kind of depends on the quality of the bag and what it's made out of. For instance, the high quality leather and/or leather canvas mix bags you can pack jam tight and over time you'll "break it in" to the perfect condition. The cheaper bags you fill pretty much the way Kevin described.

I would start out with the rice to break you in and if you want, some people move onto small BB's at first and move on to bigger ones as their hands toughen. It's really not necessary though. A rice filled bag will be enough. I recommend picking up some "dit da jow" too. It's a chinese herb blend that helps strengthen your bones and ligaments over time. But right away it will take away any aches and pains you might have. Just rub on a small amount on your hands before and after training with the wall bag. As you move on to working with a partner or on the dummy you can put it on your forearms as well.

Hope this helps

[k gledhill]

Kowloonboy: This is a lineage thing. Only train this way if you're going to end up in the WSL lineage, specifically the Philip Bayer line. I'm not going to pass judgement, it's neither here nor there, it's what you want personally that matters. Just know that they do many things very different.

In regards to the wall bag, I use brown rice. Brown rice keeps the bugs away for some reason. How you fill it kind of depends on the quality of the bag and what it's made out of. For instance, the high quality leather and/or leather canvas mix bags you can pack jam tight and over time you'll "break it in" to the perfect condition. The cheaper bags you fill pretty much the way Kevin described.

I would start out with the rice to break you in and if you want, some people move onto small BB's at first and move on to bigger ones as their hands toughen. It's really not necessary though. A rice filled bag will be enough. I recommend picking up some "dit da jow" too. It's a chinese herb blend that helps strengthen your bones and ligaments over time. But right away it will take away any aches and pains you might have. Just rub on a small amount on your hands before and after training with the wall bag. As you move on to working with a partner or on the dummy you can put it on your forearms as well.

Hope this helps

a lineage thing ? the first thing everyone of us does when starting the forms, x wrists in front of sternum extend outwards so wrists stay xed until they reach apex.
return back to X in front of chest....then left fist wrist x's the line too and extends forwards with elbow touching line , wrist still xing line...
right punch same..
left tan also x's line...etc...

subtle Matt, not a lineage thing....it allows the strikes to turn levers if they are intercepted along the way as we attack. The dummy also develops this 'turning' idea.

It has to be felt to be appreciated, why we dont hand chase, the arms are working the line of anything we need to worry about ...mindlessly. No mind.

Every form starts with this for a reason Matt...striking lines, lin sil di dar, and it gets more refined with tan and jum concepts.

its there in front of everyone who does VT. x line strike, return, x line strike, return...nothing to do with lineage, its knowledge.

[mvbrown21]

a lineage thing ? the first thing everyone of us does when starting the forms, x wrists in front of sternum extend outwards so wrists stay xed until they reach apex.
return back to X in front of chest....then left fist wrist x's the line too and extends forwards with elbow touching line , wrist still xing line...
right punch same..
left tan also x's line...etc...


I wasn't referring to that concept Kev, I was referring to the either punching over each fist as it comes back or the side by side method.

[k gledhill]

I wasn't referring to that concept Kev, I was referring to the either punching over each fist as it comes back or the side by side method.

side by side, xing...same thing....:) if you go parallel or two equally extended you risk being shut down.
Tut sao is the same actions as the opening moves , just individually done in abstract , showing the sweep and recovery of wusao to make the next action punches...all the actions use the joan sien , with chu ying.

[mvbrown21]

a lineage thing ? the first thing everyone of us does when starting the forms, x wrists in front of sternum extend outwards so wrists stay xed until they reach apex.
return back to X in front of chest....then left fist wrist x's the line too and extends forwards with elbow touching line , wrist still xing line...
right punch same..
left tan also x's line...etc...



In fact, this whole thing might be a miscommunication, just re-explain what your talking about in regards to the straight punching as an exercise? We might be on the same page, who knows?

[k gledhill]

In fact, this whole thing might be a miscommunication, just re-explain what your talking about in regards to the straight punching as an exercise? We might be on the same page, who knows?

true, the whole system is this simple idea, the techniques we use are line related.

[mvbrown21]

side by side, xing...same thing....:) if you go parallel or two equally extended you risk being shut down.
Tut sao is the same actions as the opening moves , just individually done in abstract , showing the sweep and recovery of wusao to make the next action punches...all the actions use the joan sien , with chu ying.

No offense or anything, but I honestly lost you there? I think sometimes you might explain things from inside your head with connections already made within your mind. That's not a bash, so please don't take it that way. Just try to explain things sometimes like you're teaching someone it for the first time. I'd like to understand what your talking about so that kowloonboy can get some correct info, so if you don't mind, just start over

Thanks

[Jaybo]

THanks for your lengthy replies guys. I will read them in more detail later, and post back. I'm on my phone at the moment.

[kowloonboy]

yellow beans are good for starters... fill 80% allow for impact to compress bag or you can split zipper etc...
Hit bag a few times [10-15 punches] and check in between your knuckles for a small red 'tattoo' mark aka a blood blister, forming from heat/friction under the skin. Stop ! before it bleeds on bag [hygiene] and it takes 3 weeks before you can hit again...
when you make red mark on fist turn to open vertical palm strikes, you will develop blister at base of palm same way if not careful, so stop and cool down. Check often...
next day add a few more punches, and so on...try 500 between forms, run 5 miles have bag in backpack, use bungee cord to strap to available tree , hit , forms, hit, forms hit tree too :D then run more..fitness just as important for punching...
You can make a narrow hanging bag out of an old jacket sleeve filled with small rocks/pebbles/shingle, wrap in gaffer tape for jum sao elbow in horizontal palm strikes .
For kicking fill wall bag [larger] with shingle/rocks etc....
No better object to hit and kick than the Thai long bag.

Thank you very much for your detailed advice. :)


On another note, the fists pass next to each other, either side of the line not over and under, very important to repeat this early or you ingrain straightlines rather than sweeping , striking natural intercepting lines..iow lin sil di dar starts asa you do chain punch....forget fast punching , try good line sweeping strikes with body behind them.

Could you post a video clip of this punch? I am guessing of how this should be executed. So keep elbows inward like all Wing Chun punch, while the front fist finish hitting/impact the target and returning back, at the same time the rear fist travel forward toward the target, and at some point they will be parallel next to each other (at one point of the path traveling along the center line, it will be two fist right next to each other, like a western boxer in guarding position) Have I got this right? Thanks :)

Does the punch look like 1:11 to 2:07 of the following clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQyiEWdlNQ

[kowloonboy]

In regards to the wall bag, I use brown rice. Brown rice keeps the bugs away for some reason. How you fill it kind of depends on the quality of the bag and what it's made out of. For instance, the high quality leather and/or leather canvas mix bags you can pack jam tight and over time you'll "break it in" to the perfect condition. The cheaper bags you fill pretty much the way Kevin described.

I would start out with the rice to break you in and if you want, some people move onto small BB's at first and move on to bigger ones as their hands toughen. It's really not necessary though. A rice filled bag will be enough. I recommend picking up some "dit da jow" too. It's a chinese herb blend that helps strengthen your bones and ligaments over time. But right away it will take away any aches and pains you might have. Just rub on a small amount on your hands before and after training with the wall bag. As you move on to working with a partner or on the dummy you can put it on your forearms as well.

Hope this helps

Thanks for your help once again, Matt. :)

I have read some where today that filling should be
Stage 1 - rice filling
Stage 2 - black eye peas or kidney beans
Stage 3 - small pebbles or metal ball bearing

Since I got a 3 section bag on the way (just ordered), I will put brown rice for the mid section (I read that this will feel like punching the body), and use yellow bean/ black eye peas or kidney beans for the top section (I read this will feel more like the hardness of people's head when impact). But which one should I use in the future small pebbles or metal ball bearing once my fist or palm strike are more conditioned? Which one will better? Thanks :)

[YouKnowWho]

I don't like rice. When it turns into powder, you can inhale into your lung. The green mung bean is better for the beginner level training. It's cold in nature and harder than the rice.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/116513357/Green_Mung_Bean_yellow_mung_bean_organic.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/116513357/Green_Mung_Bean_yellow_mung_bean/showimage.html&usg=__CmZgbShsSil0tBqQ_EWsAHIAt-Y=&h=360&w=360&sz=47&hl=en&start=42&zoom=1&tbnid=tJvNRNyl4EREPM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=135&ei=PNTqTZL5LoyesQOjr4nXDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreen%2Bbean%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz %3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1341%26bih%3D618%2 6tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=121&vpy=251&dur=5881&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=109&ty=199&page=3&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:42&biw=1341&bih=618

In the advance level, try to mix 50% BB and 50% green mung bean so you won't get arthritis in your old age. I find the plastic bean (or rubber bean) is good replacement for the 50% green mung bean in the advance level training.

[kowloonboy]

I don't like rice. When it turns into powder, you can inhale into your lung. The green mung bean is better for the beginner level training. It's cold in nature and harder than the rice.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/116513357/Green_Mung_Bean_yellow_mung_bean_organic.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/116513357/Green_Mung_Bean_yellow_mung_bean/showimage.html&usg=__CmZgbShsSil0tBqQ_EWsAHIAt-Y=&h=360&w=360&sz=47&hl=en&start=42&zoom=1&tbnid=tJvNRNyl4EREPM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=135&ei=PNTqTZL5LoyesQOjr4nXDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreen%2Bbean%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz %3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1341%26bih%3D618%2 6tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=121&vpy=251&dur=5881&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=109&ty=199&page=3&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:42&biw=1341&bih=618

In the advance level, try to mix 50% BB and 50% green mung bean so you won't get arthritis in your old age.

Thanks, green mung bean then. :) Is BB, the BB pellets (Steel or Plastic?) for Airsoft pistol?

[bennyvt]

we start with smother small rocks and move up to gravel.

[wolf3001]

We used to use a weight in class it was a bar probably 3 pounds or so. I have heard this is bad and doesn't help but I think it can help some. What we did was we would hold the bar bring our fist to center and then throw a punch as fast as we could and rechamber. After throwing punches we would then hold the bar strait out and bring the arm back as quickly as possible. I now have a wall bag hanging in my room unfortunately I don't have a place of my own and all the banging bothers my family. I do 2 level punching drills on my wall bag. 1 strike to the head, 2 to the body then another 1 to the head in rapid succession as I step forward and back. We do this in the air at the beginning of class as one of our warm up drills. I love the 2 level drill because in many cases you go for a strike to the head and people raise their arms. It really helps to teach newer people to switch targets quickly and keep getting hits. I tried my hand at candle punching it's a good way to develop proper technique and speed. The candle should be at shoulder height so that when you punch the fist goes strait out to the flame. Stand back far enough so that you can't actually touch the flame. Increase distance if your blowing the candle out easily. The flame should be blown back but not really blown out.


I had the kids in our class line up I put on a chest pad and held my arms behind my back. I then had each kid come up and do rapid chain punches as I moved around the room using my footwork. They had to keep up and not break contact until they were out of breath. At times I would simply walk slowly towards them and had them try hard not to retreat as I pushed towards them. I do a similar exercise with kicks because a lot of newer students have trouble dealing with a moving target and a target coming forward can throw some off balance when they land a hit.

[Jaybo]

On another note, the fists pass next to each other, either side of the line not over and under, very important to repeat this early or you ingrain straightlines rather than sweeping , striking natural intercepting lines..iow lin sil di dar starts asa you do chain punch....forget fast punching , try good line sweeping strikes with body behind them.

Is this right? I have been taught over and under; one drops and allows the other to punch. I have only been trainin a few months, so id like to get it right early on

[Jaybo]

The punching with weights that I initially asked about is not with a bag. these punches are just straight out. If punching pads etc, no weights are used. I have a bag in my garage that is yet to be filled so all the other above info is also very useful, again, I doubt I would do this with the weights. I do have a BOB in the garage that I like to chain punch but it isnt ideal as it starts to rock all over the place.

[k gledhill]

Is this right? I have been taught over and under; one drops and allows the other to punch. I have only been trainin a few months, so id like to get it right early on

The wrists x the line...fists drop and go over but sliding wrists along line so they intercept using forearms.

The fist forearm dropping down is jut sao...

Tan elbow strike spreads off the centerline as fist x's line

Jum elbow strike contracts into the centerline "

The sophistication of the chain punch is a mystery to many.
A lot of guys think its all about A - B...eggbeater air speed.

[sihing]

The wrists x the line...fists drop and go over but sliding wrists along line so they intercept using forearms.

The fist forearm dropping down is jut sao...

Tan elbow strike spreads off the centerline as fist x's line

Jum elbow strike contracts into the centerline "

The sophistication of the chain punch is a mystery to many.
A lot of guys think its all about A - B...eggbeater air speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF4sx6bOtyE&feature=feedu , Ernie explaining some details in dan chi and basic concepts in Ving Tsun. At 00:16 you can see a good example of a "tan" strike after he has bong'd, again at 00:40 you can see the "tan" strike following up after bong. Tan means to spread so these strikes are meant to clear the line to make space for it to hit, usually done if the bridge contact is on the outside of your forearm. Striking this way, the arm is more elongated, as compared to "jum" striking.

At 00:50 is an example of a "jum" strike, which cuts the obstruction (it slices into the straight line, making it's direction go away from you) and makes space for the strike to continue in to make contact. Here is seen the bent/heavy elbow and is done when the bridge contact is inside the forearm. One has to adjust their frame to ensure the distance is correct.

Just some examples of what Kevin is talking about.

James

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF4sx6bOtyE&feature=feedu , Ernie explaining some details in dan chi and basic concepts in Ving Tsun. At 00:16 you can see a good example of a "tan" strike after he has bong'd, again at 00:40 you can see the "tan" strike following up after bong. Tan means to spread so these strikes are meant to clear the line to make space for it to hit, usually done if the bridge contact is on the outside of your forearm. Striking this way, the arm is more elongated, as compared to "jum" striking.

At 00:50 is an example of a "jum" strike, which cuts the obstruction (it slices into the straight line, making it's direction go away from you) and makes space for the strike to continue in to make contact. Here is seen the bent/heavy elbow and is done when the bridge contact is inside the forearm. One has to adjust their frame to ensure the distance is correct.

Just some examples of what Kevin is talking about.

James

:D I see it too...;) multi-tasking strikes.

Thanks James

[sihing]

Basic idea of training,,,hit the guy as many times as you can until he is knocked out, if something comes in the way, get rid of it and continue hitting. It's that simple, and thru the training and understanding you learn instinctively how to take that critical moment (bridge contact) and make it to your advantage.

No bridge contact?? Then take up his space and attack his spine, basic attacking strategy to allow a better chance of success, rather than staying on the outside and dealing with his balanced attacks and counters to yours.

But things don't always go as planned, this is a given.

In the end, it's your ability to utilize your skills vs his ability to utilize his skills, combined with the varying physical abilities and will/courage/intention between the two of you, too many variables to guarantee anything to a high degree. All I know is training in something is better for the most part than training in nothing.

James

[k gledhill]

Basic idea of training,,,hit the guy as many times as you can until he is knocked out, if something comes in the way, get rid of it and continue hitting. It's that simple, and thru the training and understanding you learn instinctively how to take that critical moment (bridge contact) and make it to your advantage.

No bridge contact?? Then take up his space and attack his spine, basic attacking strategy to allow a better chance of success, rather than staying on the outside and dealing with his balanced attacks and counters to yours.

But things don't always go as planned, this is a given.

In the end, it's your ability to utilize your skills vs his ability to utilize his skills, combined with the varying physical abilities and will/courage/intention between the two of you, too many variables to guarantee anything to a high degree. All I know is training in something is better for the most part than training in nothing.

James

All the techniques and strategies help us to 'turn' the opponent, the strikes create cycling barriers that dont require 2 hands , ie commonly seen 1 hand controls, 1 hand hits, this is usually because a simple idea was never nurtured in dan chi-sao and onwards.
Sensitivity training or 'flow' wont develop this striking unity. As simple as it sounds it can profoundly change and empower the VT fighter to take the fight to the opponent with wailing punches that are also doing a job unseen. And not egg beating ;)

You can see the punches are navigating the angles presented by the opponents actions...striking through the attempts to stop the strike in the lead opens up the following vt strike path long the centerline...because the arm has a double edge sword effect it keeps stabbing ...using either side of the dagger to deflect off the arm its by-passing to get the body/head/center/axis...

The distances are critical to make it work so your not just overreaching with long levers to touch the jaw, or punching air, the timing and cadence/tempo of the opponents actions are also used to stab through the resulting over or under actions of the opponents blocking/defending with speed and accuracy. Chi-sao makes this striking alignment and responses intuitive rather than pre-programed moves.
Not easy .

[Frost]

Hi guys

I have been training for a few months now. Last nights sesson was a killer. With punching weights we did 5 punches to the count, we did pyramid building from 10 to 50 then back down (i.e. 10 x 5, 20 x 5, 30 x 5 etc), followed by 100 (x 5). inbetween each set, we did a quick drill. This totals nearly 2000 punches. What is gained by punching to this degree? surely 50(x5) is plenty as a warm up? I guess it is for building the muscles that we punch with, i.e biceps, triceps and back?

Punching with weights is not the best thing to do, the weight /resistance is going downwards which teaches the wrong muscles to work/fire at the wrong time, bio mechanically punching against rubber bands is a much better idea as the resistance is in the same plane as it will be in real life

What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money

[k gledhill]

Thank you very much for your detailed advice. :)



Could you post a video clip of this punch? I am guessing of how this should be executed. So keep elbows inward like all Wing Chun punch, while the front fist finish hitting/impact the target and returning back, at the same time the rear fist travel forward toward the target, and at some point they will be parallel next to each other (at one point of the path traveling along the center line, it will be two fist right next to each other, like a western boxer in guarding position) Have I got this right? Thanks :)

Does the punch look like 1:11 to 2:07 of the following clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQyiEWdlNQ

No, in the clip there is no vt, just messing around.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1101383]Punching with weights is not the best thing to do, the weight /resistance is going downwards which teaches the wrong muscles to work/fire at the wrong time, bio mechanically punching against rubber bands is a much better idea as the resistance is in the same plane as it will be in real life

What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with Frost on the first part.
Second depends on who is doing what and how.I have not seen what he is doing in his punching..

joy chaudhuri

[trubblman]

What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money."

Agreed! If you must do physical conditioning why waste time in class? Physical conditioning can always be done at home.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.
...if the elbows are centered in the cycle of the drill chi-sao, you use the triangulation of the feet and hips to the centerline to maximize force exchange for short range ko power not requiring large retraction or telegraphic action.

Centers can be shown by holding the elbow of the partner and centering, then pushing lightly. The centered elbow has the whole body structure behind it....the one being shown center will be pushed back easily unless prepared by doing ygkym.

If each partner strikes forwards with opposite elbows as one does tan and one jum [slt] you feel the hips engage then the legs....striking, roll to the other side and you striking with the other tan or jum, roll and you strike v strike, roll strike v strike, if you relax or have bad positions you get hit, or corrected to improve each other, not war. Thats later .

Done properly and you will not need weights ;) you will develop explosive short range striking skills. Add the dimension of facing and tracking movement with CK and you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.

[sihing]

chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.
...if the elbows are centered in the cycle of the drill chi-sao, you use the triangulation of the feet and hips to the centerline to maximize force exchange for short range ko power not requiring large retraction or telegraphic action.

Centers can be shown by holding the elbow of the partner and centering, then pushing lightly. The centered elbow has the whole body structure behind it....the one being shown center will be pushed back easily unless prepared by doing ygkym.

If each partner strikes forwards with opposite elbows as one does tan and one jum [slt] you feel the hips engage then the legs....striking, roll to the other side and you striking with the other tan or jum, roll and you strike v strike, roll strike v strike, if you relax or have bad positions you get hit, or corrected to improve each other, not war. Thats later .

Done properly and you will not need weights ;) you will develop explosive short range striking skills. Add the dimension of facing and tracking movement with CK and you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.

That's a good explaination Kev.

If anything, you would do low rep, heavy weighted squats to improve your VT punch, as the power is coming from the stabalized frame and leg/glute muscles. Holding weights in your hand is the opposite, your working your shoulder rather than the superior larger quad. Think of it this way, how much can one military press compared to their squat?? Most can squat much more weight, the trick is how to I utilze that power in my punch.

James

[mvbrown21]

,
chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.......... you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.

Hey Kev,

I like your guys concept of clearing the line with one arm. I think it can be very useful. Believe it or not we use the same concept "when appropriate". I've watched quite a few examples now of the sweeping punch/Jum/tan or whatever you call it. Looks good but I've also noticed that most the time the rear hand was chambered or, believe it or not, "controlling" at a very close distance to the punch arm. So let me ask you this since your so against controlling with two hands. If done properly, wouldn't I inherently have a different angle line of attack by controlling actually giving me two different attack options between my controlling hand and attacking hand? Wouldn't that then give me the ability to open up and gain the inside line following the true concept of the triangle theory? Wouldn't you by nature be bound to a very narrow set of lines using the the whole one arm acts as two thing, especially when you have that rear hand chambered?

[mvbrown21]

On another note too, it appears that you guys use this method as a majority rather than a minority in your training, which is fine. I don't know if this is more a PB line thing because I don't see it as much with the David Peterson or Gary Lam examples. I don't know why you're so against the idea of controlling or "wristing" either. It seems to me that this method you've defended and put down others for, over and over, is really only at it's most effective against someone who keeps their elbow down when fighting. For those who have been in a real fight, they know that to gain access to someone's elbow is almost next to impossible. The most likely way you'll disrupt their structure at all will be by their 'wrist' or 'upper forearm' and of course the all-important footwork. It's also obvious too that the majority of people you'll face will have their elbows up the majority of the time.

I don't know, I have an open mind to WC and I've really tried to see the benefits of your method Kev but I just don't think it's a better way....

[YouKnowWho]

One of the TCMA training problems is one may spend too much time striking in the thin air instead of striking on heavy bag.

[TenTigers]

If Dr. Leung Jan (John Crescione) is around, maybe he can clarify this,, as I learned it from him.
In the body there are areas that develop blockages, or areas where energy stagnates. The shoulder, elbow and wrist are just such places and are referred to as gates.
Continuous chain punching for nine minutes opens up the first gate, eighteen minutes opens up the second gate, and 27 minutes opens up the third gate.
When all three gates are cleared, the energy flows.
Admittedly, I have only gone as far as the second gate.:o

[k gledhill]

On another note too, it appears that you guys use this method as a majority rather than a minority in your training, which is fine. I don't know if this is more a PB line thing because I don't see it as much with the David Peterson or Gary Lam examples. I don't know why you're so against the idea of controlling or "wristing" either. It seems to me that this method you've defended and put down others for, over and over, is really only at it's most effective against someone who keeps their elbow down when fighting. For those who have been in a real fight, they know that to gain access to someone's elbow is almost next to impossible. The most likely way you'll disrupt their structure at all will be by their 'wrist' or 'upper forearm' and of course the all-important footwork. It's also obvious too that the majority of people you'll face will have their elbows up the majority of the time.

I don't know, I have an open mind to WC and I've really tried to see the benefits of your method Kev but I just don't think it's a better way....

you dont know it, your trying to make sense of it by YOUR understanding ...if your ever in nyc drop in. Its easier to explain 'hands on' sparring. Elbows up or down theres always a kick ;)

this isnt a bash either, because I used to try and make sense of articles by WSL when I was doing stuff like your doing now.

its a holistic approach that deals with sparring as the goal, not the drills.


btw wristing is a term for unaligned movement , hand chasing to 'control' etc...you will be surprised at the results. Everyone who is shown the thinking grins first :D then says " how come I never heard this way ? " . then you see some guidelines and a simple proving method of ones ability to use the lin sil di dar.....in sparring. Its not just the hands but the WHOLE everything attached to the arms, the body alignment, the control of momentum in fast exchanges, refacing , maintaing striking distances, being able to generate force or not...its really a testing ground for what you 'think' you have ....can be humbling. It humbled me ...

[mvbrown21]

you dont know it, your trying to make sense of it by YOUR understanding ...if your ever in nyc drop in. Its easier to explain 'hands on' sparring. Elbows up or down theres always a kick ;)

this isnt a bash either, because I used to try and make sense of articles by WSL when I was doing stuff like your doing now.

its a holistic approach that deals with sparring as the goal, not the drills.


btw wristing is a term for unaligned movement , hand chasing to 'control' etc...you will be surprised at the results. Everyone who is shown the thinking grins first :D then says " how come I never heard this way ? " . then you see some guidelines and a simple proving method of ones ability to use the lin sil di dar.....in sparring. Its not just the hands but the WHOLE everything attached to the arms, the body alignment, the control of momentum in fast exchanges, refacing , maintaing striking distances, being able to generate force or not...its really a testing ground for what you 'think' you have ....can be humbling. It humbled me ...

I'm open to everything and if I'm ever in NYC I'll be sure to "test" it out so to speak. A structured "beimo" fight, right? :)

Anyway, Is there a big difference between the Gary Lam line and the PB because here's an interview of one of his students and he says this about controlling -

"Ernie: You’re dead on Kev. When I was first brought to Sifu Lams I was told that even though Gary was very skilled, I should watch out for all the hand chasing and extra actions (flowery hands). Since the WSL family guys originally taught me, the only Ving Tsun I knew was the WSL way, so I was very skeptical. The only problem was that Gary’s guys kept handing me my ass! Every time I tried to be direct and attack, I got smoked, tied up, pushed, pulled or just dropped. These guys had huge ground power and were very ballistic with there pak sau and lop sau.

It took me a few years and a lot of humbling moments before I started to “get it”. It was about timing and distance and setting up opportunities. Gary sat me down and said, “you have a choice, you can either rush in with Lat Sau Jik Chung and be like a machine gun with small bullets spraying everywhere or you can place the target were you want, set up the line, and fire with full emotional content and body mechanics—more like a pump shot gun.”

The latter requires a different focus and intent on the VT skill set. Once I let go of my preconceived notions I really started to improve. Now there is a time and a place were both strategies work best; sometimes your need a jab—something quick and instant—and sometimes a rear cross is the tool—something with full power and torque. I think a combination of approaches suit me best, and the old boxing saying, “lead with speed; finish with power.” This brings another quote from Sifu Lam, one I use very much in my life, “don’t be stubborn, when it’s time to change, then change!”"

I like Gary Lam and I think he has a nice mixture of traditional WSL so to speak and the ideas and concepts of the other lineage's as well.

Control or the "flowery hands, as you call it" is a very important part of WC Kev and to write it off because you, yourself, might not have been very good at it doesn't mean it doesn't work or complete the big picture

[mvbrown21]

Here you go Kev. One of WSL top guys, Gary Lam, explaining all the things you're against. Not a big fan of his technique in the examples but he explains the basic concepts none the less

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A&feature=fvst

[k gledhill]

I'm open to everything and if I'm ever in NYC I'll be sure to "test" it out so to speak. A structured "beimo" fight, right? :)

Anyway, Is there a big difference between the Gary Lam line and the PB because here's an interview of one of his students and he says this about controlling -

"Ernie: You’re dead on Kev. When I was first brought to Sifu Lams I was told that even though Gary was very skilled, I should watch out for all the hand chasing and extra actions (flowery hands). Since the WSL family guys originally taught me, the only Ving Tsun I knew was the WSL way, so I was very skeptical. The only problem was that Gary’s guys kept handing me my ass! Every time I tried to be direct and attack, I got smoked, tied up, pushed, pulled or just dropped. These guys had huge ground power and were very ballistic with there pak sau and lop sau.

It took me a few years and a lot of humbling moments before I started to “get it”. It was about timing and distance and setting up opportunities. Gary sat me down and said, “you have a choice, you can either rush in with Lat Sau Jik Chung and be like a machine gun with small bullets spraying everywhere or you can place the target were you want, set up the line, and fire with full emotional content and body mechanics—more like a pump shot gun.”

The latter requires a different focus and intent on the VT skill set. Once I let go of my preconceived notions I really started to improve. Now there is a time and a place were both strategies work best; sometimes your need a jab—something quick and instant—and sometimes a rear cross is the tool—something with full power and torque. I think a combination of approaches suit me best, and the old boxing saying, “lead with speed; finish with power.” This brings another quote from Sifu Lam, one I use very much in my life, “don’t be stubborn, when it’s time to change, then change!”"

I like Gary Lam and I think he has a nice mixture of traditional WSL so to speak and the ideas and concepts of the other lineage's as well.

Control or the "flowery hands, as you call it" is a very important part of WC Kev and to write it off because you, yourself, might not have been very good at it doesn't mean it doesn't work or complete the big picture

Your confusing my idea of chi-sao flow'ers [ not flowers :D] to this excerpt .
I also have other things beside the dagger strikes, but that's the part most VT shares one hand helps the other.
Maybe not as I train, but its easier to go forward hands on, let hands talk.
typing isnt working :D

[mvbrown21]

Your confusing my idea of chi-sao flow'ers [ not flowers :D] to this excerpt .
I also have other things beside the dagger strikes, but that's the part most VT shares one hand helps the other.
Maybe not as I train, but its easier to go forward hands on, let hands talk.
typing isnt working :D

Fair enough, and like I said if I'm ever in NYC, I'll drop by....conversation is now over....thanks for restraining yourself Kev

[k gledhill]

But you still didn't answer the Gary Lam method or the different angles of attack I mentioned earlier??

we use angling extensively too....footwork.

here is another guy who trains mit PB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nbOpg0Pux0&feature=related

[CFT]

here is another guy who trains mit PBLooks like Philipp's German is rubbing off on you! :)

[k gledhill]

Hah, hopefully some skills too....vu sao !

[Graham H]

One of WSL top guys, Gary Lam,

:eek::confused::eek:

GH

[k gledhill]

Another clip with a little striking exchanges , note striking, not feeling chasing ...you can get a feeling that the chi-sao is kicking in directly with reflex exchanges but without 2 hands extended drilling ...and no lead leg eggbeaters chasing air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duWnaCQW51g&NR=1

and another , you can see striking development with stances etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL2r0btWxNI&feature=related

[Sean66]

I still think this is one of the best clips that illustrates the concept of controlling and striking simultaneously. Watch the use of angles combined with footwork to control/reduce the attacking and counterattacking abilities of the "opponent":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2US_ZXxLTGk

[GlennR]

Another clip with a little striking exchanges , note striking, not feeling chasing ...you can get a feeling that the chi-sao is kicking in directly with reflex exchanges but without 2 hands extended drilling ...and no lead leg eggbeaters chasing air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duWnaCQW51g&NR=1

and another , you can see striking development with stances etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL2r0btWxNI&feature=related


Liked the 1st clip

[k gledhill]

more striking ideas ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHfBChAEo54

[Frost]

more striking ideas ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHfBChAEo54

thanks for the clips, any chance you have any clips of the guys actually hitting each other rather than just putting out ideas?

[NelisVingTsun]

more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRpyw7lbibw

[CFT]

I still think this is one of the best clips that illustrates the concept of controlling and striking simultaneously. Watch the use of angles combined with footwork to control/reduce the attacking and counterattacking abilities of the "opponent":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2US_ZXxLTGkI like this one a lot. I was wondering how white shirt (Michael?) kept getting black t-shirt(Kai?)'s flank. Paid closer attention and it was the slight turning of black t-shirt as he was attacking. Very nicely done.

[sihing]

I like this one a lot. I was wondering how white shirt (Michael?) kept getting black t-shirt(Kai?)'s flank. Paid closer attention and it was the slight turning of black t-shirt as he was attacking. Very nicely done.

It's a nice clip, Micheal is very tight in his movements, very hard to see the slight angles and structure/mechanics at play here.

Now here is the the thing, Micheal (white shirt) is getting the flank of black shirt guy, who also has a VT frame and movement. VT frm/movmt is all about facing square while in training (chi sau/laap sau mode & range), so if Mike can get his flank how much easier will it be for him to get one's flank when they don't have this VT development?

Like other's have said, part of what is learned in VT is to get the flank on your opponent, why do this? Because it's easier to fight one side at a time than two sides at time. VT teaches to fight with 2 live sides, the natural tendency in people is to turn when they hit, which is one side live the other dead (for the moment anyways).

The conumdrum is can we get enough power in our strikes to do the job, without using a torque/twisting turning method to do so leaving us with one dead side when we hit. Well that is for each of us to develop if we know how.

J

[k gledhill]

It's a nice clip, Micheal is very tight in his movements, very hard to see the slight angles and structure/mechanics at play here.

Now here is the the thing, Micheal (white shirt) is getting the flank of black shirt guy, who also has a VT frame and movement. VT frm/movmt is all about facing square while in training (chi sau/laap sau mode & range), so if Mike can get his flank how much easier will it be for him to get one's flank when they don't have this VT development?

Like other's have said, part of what is learned in VT is to get the flank on your opponent, why do this? Because it's easier to fight one side at a time than two sides at time. VT teaches to fight with 2 live sides, the natural tendency in people is to turn when they hit, which is one side live the other dead (for the moment anyways).

The conumdrum is can we get enough power in our strikes to do the job, without using a torque/twisting turning method to do so leaving us with one dead side when we hit. Well that is for each of us to develop if we know how.

J

well put....

[Shaolin12]

Hi,

Nothing wrong with training and using the vertical punch. However, the nun is leading us to more sophisticated ways of fighting.

I know a lot of schools feel you use a deflection then punch 8 times down center line. That is not wrong but if that is what you want to do why train in Wing Chun? I think if that were the mentality of my school that I would switch to boxing so I could mix in other punches.

Also, does your school have you practice footwork while throwing all these punches? Because, nobody will stay in place for 8 hits. After 1 or 2 they will be moving backwards, its important to keep it real. Practice your footwork, dart forward while punching.

Lastly, the form repeats things 3x. I dont know where 8 came from. The nun is showing us we can do combos in 3. so 3,6,9,12 etc. Will you be standing still to receive 9 punches?



Hi guys

I have been training for a few months now. Last nights sesson was a killer. With punching weights we did 5 punches to the count, we did pyramid building from 10 to 50 then back down (i.e. 10 x 5, 20 x 5, 30 x 5 etc), followed by 100 (x 5). inbetween each set, we did a quick drill. This totals nearly 2000 punches. What is gained by punching to this degree? surely 50(x5) is plenty as a warm up? I guess it is for building the muscles that we punch with, i.e biceps, triceps and back?

[Brule]

I remember doing hundreds of punches in class, heck there were even times we did a couple of thousand. I always hated these classes and at the end of the day when i'm at home icing my shoulders from the soreness, i thought why the hell we even do that many. Then i became more accustomed to doing them, you know why? Because i found ways to cheat on the punches so as not to get so sore.

Punching is good provided you use good technique. Doing more of something just because you think it provides benefit will only lead to bad habits. Quality over quantity.

Oh, and what Frost and others said, punching while wearing wrist weights = no good. And don't even think of putting them on your ankles and kicking, just in case you thought that was a good idea.

[shaolinhouse]

Punching with weights is a good way to develop strength in the muscles that are required for such an action. I feel it's important to not go at full speed when the hands are weighted down and it's very important to practice form. This prevents injuries and fosters good technique.

Also, weighing down your hands makes your hands 'lighter.' Put on a pair of 16oz boxing gloves and go hit a couple rounds on the heavy bag. Then take them off and put on some MMA gloves. You'll be as fast as lightning!


Very well put. As for the mma gloves, you can purchase weighted ones as well.