Finger Conditioning

[wolf3001]

I have been wanting to do some conditioning for my Kung Fu but I have heard things about damaging your eye sight from conditioning your fingers. How true is this? I have found many saying this but no real proof from anyone who has researched this. I can understand arthritis or other such things but I am not finding much linking finger conditioning or hand to loss of vision. My vision has been bad for many years now I got glasses in 5th grade and as time past it got worse. I would like to hear if anyone has a link or something that has medical proof that it can in fact cause eye damage.

I would also like to know if anyone had hand issues that were fixed by conditioning them as I have a bit of an issue with Trigger finger. I have never done any real serious conditioning with my hands only using sand filled bags once in awhile. Never had any real pain from it but my hand does give me some trouble.

[kowloonboy]

Source: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25835
Posted by Pakmei,

The reason why they say that you can damage your eyesight from hand conditioning is because in Chinese Medicine, pretty much all of the Yang meridians begin at the head region and some start from around the eyes and finish at the tips of the fingers and toes.

Basically a persons Qi, is very volitile at the tips of the fingers and toes as it changes from Yin to Yang and vice versa. This energy is more volitile in young children, than in adults though.

On a very basic level, the fingers tips are usually considered as exit points for Qi (both in projecting Qi for fighting or healing) so if you stagnate the energy at these points, then that stagnation can travel to eyes and eventually cause damage.

This is why most CMA use dit da jow, to prevent any Qi stagnation due to trauma.

-----

I also found this http://www.yinyanghouse.com/basics/arm_hand_acupressure_points

Acupressure on the arm and hand points aids a number of conditions including headaches, nausea, breathing problems, sinus issues, stress, anxiety and more. So shouldn't conditioning the hand also be good for health?? :confused:

Also reading this http://www.chinesenaturecure.com/web/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&artid=42&Itemid=3

It said that Sudden Blindness (Bao Mang), It is mostly caused by deficiency of qi and blood of qi and blood, or qi stagnation and blood stasis, or liver stagnation transforming into fire, which runs up to disturb the eyes.

[Dragonzbane76]

I have been wanting to do some conditioning for my Kung Fu but I have heard things about damaging your eye sight from conditioning your fingers. How true is this? I have found many saying this but no real proof from anyone who has researched this. I can understand arthritis or other such things but I am not finding much linking finger conditioning or hand to loss of vision. My vision has been bad for many years now I got glasses in 5th grade and as time past it got worse. I would like to hear if anyone has a link or something that has medical proof that it can in fact cause eye damage.

I would also like to know if anyone had hand issues that were fixed by conditioning them as I have a bit of an issue with Trigger finger. I have never done any real serious conditioning with my hands only using sand filled bags once in awhile. Never had any real pain from it but my hand does give me some trouble.

I find your post confusing??

are you practicing your finger strikes on someone "Live"? don't know your wording is off kilter.

[wolf3001]

I find your post confusing??

are you practicing your finger strikes on someone "Live"? don't know your wording is off kilter.

There are many that say over conditioning the hands or fingers will cause damage to your eyes.

[Scott R. Brown]

It is an ancient superstition!

If you don't believe me, just take one mercury pill daily in order to prolong your life and youthful vigor! You may last a year or two, depending upon how much mercury you choose to ingest and you wll neither look youthful nor vigorous, but you WILL go crazy and die a painful death!

So I say, go for it!

[TenTigers]

the idea that training your fingers will cause you to lose your eyesight came from a Chinese doctor, who upon catching his teen-aged son stroking himself with his fingers, told him,
"If you keep that up, you'll go blind."
His son responded, "Can I do it until I need glasses?"
and the rest is history.

[Scott R. Brown]

the idea that training your fingers will cause you to lose your eyesight came from a Chinese doctor, who upon catching his teen-aged son stroking himself with his fingers, told him,
"If you keep that up, you'll go blind."
His son responded, "Can I do it until I need glasses?"
and the rest is history.

Ba Boom......Bannnnnnnnnng!:eek:

He's here all week folks! Tell your friends!:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do fingertip push-ups, all fingers and then just the thumb and forefinger and then just the thumb.
I also hit the steel shot bag (hanging) with 50 spear hands,each hand, as part of my IH training.
Jow is a must.
I don't use it as a primary weapon, BUT I would love to use it ala Sho Kosugi in Ninja assassin !
LOL !

[David Jamieson]

You'll get more mileage out of palm strikes and fists.

Finger conditioning is super specialized and virtually worthless in this day and age.

Nobody makes copper chariot wheels anymore, but they were formidable!
Nobody wears 65 lbs of steel Armour anymore, but back in the day!

Name one, just one pro fighter who uses finger strikes and has spent an adequate amount of time working them? Name a soldier you know who uses it to win the battle? Over the last 50 years?

No offense to anyone, but there is a reason why classical arts with real teachers and real knowledge are rare. It has falling out of use. Martially speaking, it's a mere novelty and would be pursued for personal insight.

There's a lot of things we "can" do. :)

[wolf3001]

You'll get more mileage out of palm strikes and fists.

Finger conditioning is super specialized and virtually worthless in this day and age.

Nobody makes copper chariot wheels anymore, but they were formidable!
Nobody wears 65 lbs of steel Armour anymore, but back in the day!

Name one, just one pro fighter who uses finger strikes and has spent an adequate amount of time working them? Name a soldier you know who uses it to win the battle? Over the last 50 years?

No offense to anyone, but there is a reason why classical arts with real teachers and real knowledge are rare. It has falling out of use. Martially speaking, it's a mere novelty and would be pursued for personal insight.

There's a lot of things we "can" do. :)

One reason I want to work more on finger training is that I have jammed my fingers a bit in fights. Injuring a finger could keep you from being able to make a good fist or grab even hold a weapon. Professional fighters not all but many don't train all the stuff traditional artists do. They have no need to spend time developing Iron Palm or working on their fingers because they can't use most of this in the sport. A couple guys I know were going to enter a local MMA fight. They were told no open hand strikes, elbows or finger jabs. The military has little need for hand to hand I heard they were even doing away with much of their bayonet training. I have an ex military guy in my Wing Chun class he used to wrestle but couldn't fight for crap. I was a bit shocked how little he knew but I guess he didn't need to because from what I understand he was not really in combat.

Conditioning the fingers helps strengthen a weakness in my opinion doing Iron Palm and things will strengthen the hands and keep them from injury. Some old bare knuckle Boxers used to do similar things. The hands can be damaged easily if not conditioned properly. I have seen average people sprain their wrists simply because they had never really fought before and threw a bad punch. I think at this time and age these traditional techniques benefit the average Joe on the street more so than a pro fighter or soldier. For the most part many places do not allow the common people to carry a weapon. I carry a knife daily and I sometimes carry my 9mm because I have a permit to. However under attack I will have to deploy these and by the time I do I have already been attacked. I rely on my hand to hand first . Finger strikes depend on the situation and I don't use them all that often in practice. I only ever use them to do serious damage as in going for the eyes or throat. I typically use a Leopard Fist rather than a finger strike unless I want more penetration.

[Scott R. Brown]

It would be safer for your fingers and a better use of your time to train using a sharpened, or unsharpened #3 or #4 pencil.

It is not just the training time, but the wear and tear on your fingers that will suffer. There is a guy in the Philippines, I think, who can drive his finger into a coconut. It sounds awesome, until you see his fingers and hand. They are completely deformed.

No matter how conditioned you think your fingers will become, anyone, no matter how weak, can grab your finger, twist it and break it.

Practice driving pencils into watermellons and cantelopes. Easier, Safer, More Effective, More Dangerous!

[Scott R. Brown]

But, if you insist, start by standing in front of a wall, put the tip of your index finger on the wall and lean into it. As your finger control and the strength of the tendons improves, stand further and further away from the wall.

Practice using the index finger, then the middle finger, and both fingers at various times. Take your time and don't push it.

Do not move on to active finger jabs until you have built up enough finger strength/control. Expect to lose finger and hand flexibility in the process, making it more serious when you sprain your finger.

When you move on to finger jabs, start with soft clay and move up to firmer and firmer clay as you progress. Start with VERY slow jabs, more like pushes, and over time move up to faster jabs.

DO NOT train injured! And it will take a LOOOOONG time to heal if you suffer a serious finger joint injury. Expect serious arthritis when you get old!

[SteveLau]

The whole thing of finger conditioning will ruin our eye sight is B.S. I have Chinese background to begin with, and I do not believe the Qi and other nerve damage explanations for that. Decade ago, I did finger tip push-ups regularly. And I strained a thumb. The conclusion that I have arrived is that such push-up training is too much on our body, and thus not safe. So forget about doing three fingers or one finger push-ups. I quitted doing the exercise then, and I have no regret making the decision.





Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Kevin73]

You'll get more mileage out of palm strikes and fists.

Finger conditioning is super specialized and virtually worthless in this day and age.

Nobody makes copper chariot wheels anymore, but they were formidable!
Nobody wears 65 lbs of steel Armour anymore, but back in the day!

Name one, just one pro fighter who uses finger strikes and has spent an adequate amount of time working them? Name a soldier you know who uses it to win the battle? Over the last 50 years? No offense to anyone, but there is a reason why classical arts with real teachers and real knowledge are rare. It has falling out of use. Martially speaking, it's a mere novelty and would be pursued for personal insight.

There's a lot of things we "can" do. :)

I may not be a pro fighter or a soldier, but I have on two occasions used a spearhand to the throat on someone coming at me and did not hurt my fingers and was able to control and end the confrontation right after.

[David Jamieson]

I may not be a pro fighter or a soldier, but I have on two occasions used a spearhand to the throat on someone coming at me and did not hurt my fingers and was able to control and end the confrontation right after.

OK, and?

I've sword fingered someone in the throat as well and then walked them backwards.

You have to be careful if you want to condition fingers. If you do it wrong, you f*ck your hands up for life so you better know what you are doing in your conditioning and know this, it's about compression, there is no muscle to build in fingers and it is about desensitizing so with the neuralgia you get to avoid by killing your nerves, you a re also forfeiting the finer feeling within your hands if you do not do it correctly.

I assume you are young, so know this as well, you might think that you are not incurring any damage now, but come back and lets talk in 20 years. :)

what you do now that causes injury will re-manifest in your later years, your scars will advance to the surface and your injuries and internal scars will begin to impede a lot of your movement and activity.

When I say it's rare to find people who know these methods, I mean it. it's rare.
In my personal opinion, it's not a very fruitful endeavour.

If you find your fingers getting jammed during conflict then I suggest you keep a tighter fist. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Just because you CAN use a spear hand in a real life encounter, does not mean it is the only "hand" possible to use or the only "hand" you should use. There is almost no circumstance that requires only one kind of response.

[Kevin73]

OK, and?

I've sword fingered someone in the throat as well and then walked them backwards.

You have to be careful if you want to condition fingers. If you do it wrong, you f*ck your hands up for life so you better know what you are doing in your conditioning and know this, it's about compression, there is no muscle to build in fingers and it is about desensitizing so with the neuralgia you get to avoid by killing your nerves, you a re also forfeiting the finer feeling within your hands if you do not do it correctly.

I assume you are young, so know this as well, you might think that you are not incurring any damage now, but come back and lets talk in 20 years. :)

what you do now that causes injury will re-manifest in your later years, your scars will advance to the surface and your injuries and internal scars will begin to impede a lot of your movement and activity.

When I say it's rare to find people who know these methods, I mean it. it's rare.
In my personal opinion, it's not a very fruitful endeavour.

If you find your fingers getting jammed during conflict then I suggest you keep a tighter fist. :)

Not so young and have been doing it for 17 years, no problems. I think we may be defining "conditioning" as different things. I think of conditioning as anything that makes a weapon stronger. So for punching conditioning, I consider pushups a part of that. For fingers, I do various things to strengthen them. Although, I do NOT just slam them into a hard object to kill the nerves. I don't see a point in that. Your fingers just need to be stronger to use spearhands, not deadened.

In the IP training I have learned you use a tiger claw to strike and strengthen the fingertips along with Jow massage. Even in that, they don't reccomend using the very tips of the fingers, but the pads to strike and strengthen. It's like makiwara training, the only studies that have actually been done on it, show that it does not cause long term damage when done correctly. Most don't and just randomly hit their fist into a large immovable object.

I also think that genetics play a part, if you have a larger bone structure in your fingers than you can do more with spears than if you have a small bone structure.

As to the point "ok and?", you said and asked to point out MMA fighters or soldier who do it. First, in MMA it is against the rules and second soldiers fight with weapons for the most part and spend their time training those. H2H in general is not even worked. So you give two examples that are outside the realm of civilian self-defense as the standard of what someone should be able to do in a civilian self-defense situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A clip I always like:
at the 1 min mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0gZ1QAtt20

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have had my hands crushed and broken several times, leaving my right hand unable to make a fist. However, I can still strike with the fist without balling it into a fist, and I have developed it for bil gi strikes. My left hand is strong and I did develop the strength in it, but the right hand is much stronger and harder. As a young person I used the sand box a lot. Stabbing the hand into the sand as hard as you can does not injure the tips of the fingers, nor does it interfere with the flow of chi. The crushing and breaking did interfere with the flow. At first the hand would collapse and the fingers would split off in every direction. It took work, but eventually I could slam the hand half way to the elbow and the hand would maintain it's structure. It does toughen the tips of the fingers, but not to the point of destroying feel and dexterity. With my right hand, which hasn't done the sand box in over 40 years, I can stab holes in your face. The middle and the one below it make the contact, while the index and pinky brace them.
You don't have to destroy otherwise good hands simply to make them stronger. A friend that worked with the local police dept. cast a block of balistic jell and we stuffed it into a wall bag. Punching it was just the right feel, and there is no real need to beat the knuckles until they fracture to make them stronger. You can get carried away with this stuff if you are not real careful.

[wolf3001]

I have jammed my fingers or had them bent back while sparring. The last time I went to block and I caught it wrong I ended up jamming my fingers a bit. It's happened before a few times. I know at least several times I messed up and had my fingers bent back. I stretch my fingers all the time. I don't think you should strike hard objects with the fingers beans or something would probably be ok im not sure how hard that is. I lightly strike my sand bag at times but not very hard.

[IronFist]

there is no muscle to build in fingers and it is about desensitizing so with the neuralgia you get to avoid by killing your nerves, you a re also forfeiting the finer feeling within your hands if you do not do it correctly.

I thought in "correct" iron palm/forearm/body training, you didn't lose sensitivity, you just lost the "pain" response. So you can still feel light touches, but it doesn't hurt when you smash your inner forearm on something.

[wolf3001]

I thought in "correct" iron palm/forearm/body training, you didn't lose sensitivity, you just lost the "pain" response. So you can still feel light touches, but it doesn't hurt when you smash your inner forearm on something.

Never really thought about it much this is a good question. To my knowledge none of the people I know who have done Iron Palm lost sensitivity to touch. My feet are like leather I stepped on a tack once and didn't know it until I felt it sliding on our dinning room floor. I can feel stuff but I can literally take the point of a knife and push it into the heal and it doesn't hurt at all. Now I don't know anyone who has hands that are like my feet I have little feeling anywhere but the arch of the foot. I have walked bare foot for so long that they are hard im guessing your hands could get the same way but who spends that much time doing Iron Palm.