Objective Martial Test For Internal Energy

[Foiling Fist]

'An objective test for an internal blow; is to have a soft material such as a four inch thick phone book placed over a volunteer’s abdominal-intestinal area, who will feel the strike through the material. If the strike is mainly felt on the surface, it is still an external blow. If you are just moved back, it is no more than a shove. A flexible material is used to avoid the billiard ball effect. This is done from between two and four inches away, so as to avoid any potential energy that is just accumulated by momentum. '
Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout, page 25

Do not do this without a Sifu or an Acupuncturist that has an internal martial background, in case of internal injury.

'Entrainment is actually an aspect of resonance. Resonance may be defined as the frequency at which an object most naturally wants to vibrate. One object may set another object into motion if it shares the same resonant frequency. If, for example, you strike a tuning fork of 100 cycles per second and bring it near another tuning fork of that same frequency, the second tuning fork will be set in motion. Even though it has not been struck, the second fork will begin to vibrate and sound merely by being in the same field as the vibrating tuning fork.'

From: http://www.healingsounds.com/articles/sonic-entrainment.asp

[SPJ]

if you hit a pile of bricks

and only the middle one breaks

that means the middle one is the softest/weakest among the pile.

the rest is hard or pliable enough to sustain and transfer the power/energy along

---

[sanjuro_ronin]

The hardest brick to break on a mulitple brick stack that is supported and NOT flat, is the top one only.

[Scott R. Brown]

A two to four inch punch still uses momentum.

If you want to demonstarte that it is Qi and NOT momentum, you have to perform the strike from a vulnerable position, such as being off balance, on one foot, falling backwards etc. and with one finger only against a 350 lbs or more athlete, preferably a judo or sumo practioner.

If it is truly Qi then size, balance and momentum should not matter in the least. Otherwise all you are doing is cleverly using leverage and proper application of external/physical principles!

[Water-quan]

The problem with this idea, quite obviously, is that the 'objective' evidence of an internal strike is clearly the 'subjective' judgment of the person receiving the punch.

So, basically, there are scores of videos on youtube of people punching their students in various ways, and their students would swear blind that it felt 'internal' etc. We know this, because people are prepared to throw themselves across the room just to be a part of the cult, I mean group.

Even when we get non-memners to be the recipient, there are major problems. Frauds easily impress laymen, and if we usem say, students from another taiji class, well, they're probably believers as well, and just as likely to to say yes it felt 'internal', because that's what they believe in - obviously.

The real issue is, why all the parlour tricks anyway? Why all the board breaking and silly demos? Why not just put gloves on and spar and enter competitions? Huh?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with this idea, quite obviously, is that the 'objective' evidence of an internal strike is clearly the 'subjective' judgment of the person receiving the punch.

So, basically, there are scores of videos on youtube of people punching their students in various ways, and their students would swear blind that it felt 'internal' etc. We know this, because people are prepared to throw themselves across the room just to be a part of the cult, I mean group.

Even when we get non-memners to be the recipient, there are major problems. Frauds easily impress laymen, and if we usem say, students from another taiji class, well, they're probably believers as well, and just as likely to to say yes it felt 'internal', because that's what they believe in - obviously.

The real issue is, why all the parlour tricks anyway? Why all the board breaking and silly demos? Why not just put gloves on and spar and enter competitions? Huh?

What?
Actually demonstrate the supposed "superiour" power and fighting by actually FIGHTING???
Are Ye mad man ?!?!?!

Dude, let the con-men have their day, buyer beware.

As of right now, in this day and age, only those that WANT to be BS'd to ARE BS'd to.

[CFT]

The real issue is, why all the parlour tricks anyway? Why all the board breaking and silly demos? Why not just put gloves on and spar and enter competitions? Huh?Because the gloves block the qi! Don't you know nuffink man?

[Water-quan]

What?
Actually demonstrate the supposed "superiour" power and fighting by actually FIGHTING???
Are Ye mad man ?!?!?!

Dude, let the con-men have their day, buyer beware.

As of right now, in this day and age, only those that WANT to be BS'd to ARE BS'd to.

I knew this gal once who always used to say 'trust yourself' - as a kind of mantra. It seemed so right - yeah, trust yourself, trust your instincts, etc. Years later I now realise that pretty much everyone who at some point handed over money to a con man trusted their own judgment.

I do think people 'want' to be conned by the internal energy stuff. And for many different reasons. Most of all, I think it's just people who want an easy route to something - maybe martial skill, but more probably, just to be the guy in the robe at the front of the class called 'master'.

[Water-quan]

Because the gloves block the qi! Don't you know nuffink man?

Hmm.. so we need to find a chi conducting material? Any suggestions? Bullaminium?

[Kevin73]

What person hasn't after having watched Star Wars wishes that it was real while growing up?

Again, there are different types of strikes that can be defined by scientific principles and concepts. Percussive and Concussive come to mind and is the difference on why you feel the punch when striking the phone book. Basically boils down to if you are hitting with a whipping strike or a thrusting strike.

Thrusting strike uses some of the energy along the path of travel to push into the target and move it. You hit them and they go back.

Whipping/Snapping shallowly penetrates into the target and then leaves the energy to transfer into the target itself. You hit them and they stay in place, but their gizzards wiggle.

This is why when you break a board that is lying and supported you can thrust through it, but if the board is hanging with a thin cord unless you hit it very fast the board will just fly away. The energy moves the target before the target is compressed and breaks. If you hit the board with a snapping strike it is much easier to compress the board and break it before the energy is transfered into moving the board.

PS: By energy, I am NOT referring to chi/qi, but the actual physical kinetic energy of the punch/strike.

[Hendrik]

An objective test for an internal blow; is to have a soft material such as a four inch thick phone book placed over a volunteer’s abdominal-intestinal area, who will feel the strike through the material. If the strike is mainly felt on the surface, it is still an external blow. If you are just moved back, it is no more than a shove. A flexible material is used to avoid the billiard ball effect. This is done from between two and four inches away, so as to avoid any potential energy that is just accumulated by momentum. '
Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout, page 25


This above is just a momentum focal point control.
Got nothing to do with Qi or internal.

Qi comes into play, if there is, on the physical body control side to achieve the focal point control.




'Entrainment is actually an aspect of resonance. Resonance may be defined as the frequency at which an object most naturally wants to vibrate. One object may set another object into motion if it shares the same resonant frequency. If, for example, you strike a tuning fork of 100 cycles per second and bring it near another tuning fork of that same frequency, the second tuning fork will be set in motion. Even though it has not been struck, the second fork will begin to vibrate and sound merely by being in the same field as the vibrating tuning fork.'

The above got nothing to do with resonance.


Resonance / standing wave node generation comes into play, if there is, on the physcial body side for momentum generation. IE a whipping Tong Bei Jing. this is not gorverning focal point control but only momentum generation.



The issues of these above confusion actually shows the so called internal martial art player doesnt know what s/he is practicing clearly. When focal point control, power/momentum generation..... Qi are all confused. one really cant expect much out of this type of practice. That is because if one doesnt know how many knobs are there and which knobs control what, one really doesnt have much handling.

[YiQuanOne]

I think if you placed your fist against the phone book, it would give a better indication of some internal control.

As far as internal energy hurting you, sounds like "dim-muk" death touch. You have to wait and see if something is damaged later.

I would say that "internal" is more like doing a technique by moving the internal energy instead of doing the external movements, which would still have the same result on a person without using much effort. So instead of executing all the physical movments of the different body parts, which takes time, the movement is done with your mind instead.

I would also say that most orginal styles came from people who were capable of internal application. But most modern arts have lost the internal aspects, so they resort to using power, speed, and force to try to get their style to work. Which is just resorting to stronger defeating the weaker, which in that case, no art is needed.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think if you placed your fist against the phone book, it would give a better indication of some internal control.

As far as internal energy hurting you, sounds like "dim-muk" death touch. You have to wait and see if something is damaged later.

I would say that "internal" is more like doing a technique by moving the internal energy instead of doing the external movements, which would still have the same result on a person without using much effort. So instead of executing all the physical movments of the different body parts, which takes time, the movement is done with your mind instead.

I would also say that most orginal styles came from people who were capable of internal application. But most modern arts have lost the internal aspects, so they resort to using power, speed, and force to try to get their style to work. Which is just resorting to stronger defeating the weaker, which in that case, no art is needed.

you have drunk deeply of the Kool Aide my son, and may now leave the Temple...