How long until I should start with weapons and wooden dummy?

[WCgreg]

I've been doing Wing Chun for a little over a year and am grade 6, (leung ting lineage) which for those who don't know basically means just in the middle of intermediate and I love Wing Chun :)

I go to a school in Croydon, South London and there seems to be not much focus on weapons until Grade 8 and not much focus on wooden dummy until grade 12 which is considered black belt I think.

So my question is should I be concerned by this at all? I train 4 hours a week and a typical training session would be the first 2 forms and 2-3 footwork drills and then chi sau.

Thanks :)

[Graham H]

Ving Tsun shouldn't be taught in grades. The student progresses dependant on how quick he picks things up and how much time and effort is put in. With 8 hours a week training and dependant on the student I will teach the dummy after 6 months.

The long pole follows not long after. The equipment training is important for developing the correct behaviour in Ving Tsun. Most Teachers keep these things away from the students for money making purposes. It's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit!

I have seen certain Teachers within the LT lineage take money after every section of the dummy!

It's not all bad though. LT's students are all rich!!! :D

GH

[WCgreg]

I do agree sometimes I can see these money making schemes in the head instructor but who can blame him?

I've certainly improved as a fighter and a Wing chun student so I'm not worried I'm being ripped off, but the kids classes have got weapons and not my class! Jealous! :P

So would you advise I invest in a long pole and train myself with a book or just carry on focusing on hand-to-hand combat? I've never looked into long pole, I've looked into buying a wooden dummy and there's absolutely no way i can afford one...

[wingchunIan]

Greg, I wouldn't worry unless you feel that something is being hidden. If you feel that you are making progress then continue to train hard. I can't talk about levels or grades because we don't have them in the lineage that I follow but with regards to the dummy and the weapons my opinion would be that once a student has a basic understanding of the shapes and footwork the dummy becomes a useful tool for training at home. Its important to note that I'm talking about using the dummy as a tool to practice your basic shapes and not learning the specific dummy form. The dummy form itself IMO doesn't fit well before chum kiu or possibly biu jee as many of the techniques rely on advanced footwork and kicking techniques taken from these forms. Again only my opinion but I would suggest leaving the weapons until after all three empty hand forms are familiar and you have trained for a while. The weapons are great for honing accuracy and control of movement and for building energy / power but they do change the mechanics significantly and if you introduce them to your training too early you might end up with bad habits. There's certainly no harm in watching your seniors train with weapons though and there aren't any mystical secrets.

[Grumblegeezer]

So my question is should I be concerned by this at all? I train 4 hours a week and a typical training session would be the first 2 forms and 2-3 footwork drills and then chi sau.

I come from the same lineage, although now I practice with an independent group. Leung Ting was my teacher for over ten years. There are many supplemental drills with the dummy and the long pole that can be beneficial, but in our system the dummy and pole form come later for good reason. Talk to your sifu about this. And, if you want really practical weapons skills right now, why not give Eskrima a shot. Back in the '80's I studied with Rene Latosa. Since then I have worked with other systems as well and never regretted it. Over in the UK I imagine you have access to Bill Newman? His stuff is somewhat different than what I learned, but just watch that guy and you know he's for real.

[WCgreg]

Ian, I am happy with both my sifus even if training is quite expensive I havent seen many martial arts that are cheaper so I don't feel anything is hidden really, I'm just not advanced enough yet to be practicing what the higher grades practice, which I'm reminded of every time I do chi sau with either sifu and get an eye poked out in 5 seconds.

I really just wanted to practice wooden dummy because I think it's cool really if im totally honest....

so thanks for your comment :)

[WCgreg]

Grumble, do you know the reason weapons and wooden dummy are kept until later?

I don't think i'll move onto another martial art after only studying wing chun for a year because I want to get better at this first and a weapons based martial art like eskrima doesnt appeal to me as much because I won't be carrying weapons around with me as i'll get arrested...

[LoneTiger108]

I've been doing Wing Chun for a little over a year and am grade 6, (leung ting lineage) which for those who don't know basically means just in the middle of intermediate and I love Wing Chun :)

I go to a school in Croydon, South London and there seems to be not much focus on weapons until Grade 8 and not much focus on wooden dummy until grade 12 which is considered black belt I think.

So my question is should I be concerned by this at all? I train 4 hours a week and a typical training session would be the first 2 forms and 2-3 footwork drills and then chi sau.

Just looking at the gradings of LT WCK, if you have got to grade 6 after a year of 4hrs per week, surely it's not too long to wait to get grade 8 and only another year before grade 12 right?? That is if the gradings are arranged to be time bound and your skill level is increasing I suppose.

http://www.kungfuschools.co.uk/aboutus.php

Is this where you train? And if you don't mind me asking, why don't you ask your Sifu/Sihings for this guidance??

[WCgreg]

I could potentially become grade 8 in 4 months but the transition from 7-8 is a hard one so that could become 6 months or even 8, I think grade 12 in one and a half years is probably more realistic if I don't want to rush things

ah that's where I train, I'm in no way trying to discredit the school I think it's a fantastic school and would recommend it to anyone, unlike other martial arts schools I've been to before I haven't ever wanted to leave, but that might be down to the system, I asked on here to try and get an unbiased opinion, and not sugar coated

[wolf3001]

I have been training in the William Cheung branch for 10 years give or take a few if you count the years where I was unable to attend an actual class. We trained an hour to two twice a week and then I also did a lot of practice throughout the day messing around at school during lunch and at home my high school years. I just graded for level 8 in our system and I have completed the wooden Dummy and Biu Jee long time ago. Im still perfecting my techniques though and although I know the forms and could possibly grade for the instructor level my Sifu believes I need to still work on other things. I have to agree my Chi Sau isn't as great as I would like it to be for many years I have had little contact with others from my school to train with in that area. As for weapons although I like to research things and mess with stuff I have yet to be formally taught any of the weapons. I understand them a bit but haven't gone through the training. The Butterfly Knives require understanding of much of the hand forms so until you have learned all of Biu Jee and the dummy I wouldn't worry about it.

Im still surprised that Wing Chun lacks many weapons found in other arts in older times weapons would have been taught relatively early from what I understand but these days we don't walk around with swords. It's just not as necessary and mainly serves only as exercises to condition the body now. I want badly to learn the Butterfly swords, Saber and Pu Dao. If I ever get the chance I will add whatever else I learn to what I teach. Im an assistant instructor at our school but im not really interested in teaching much because im still trying to learn myself.

[wingchunIan]

Hi Greg, plese don't mistake my earlier post as inferring anything, it was merely meant to read that unless there is a burning issue simply be patient. I studied for over four years before I even picked up the knives and even longer before starting the pole. leaving aside the form itself there's no reason why you can't start drilling on the jong after a few months, ultimately its only a tool and tools are there to be used.

[Graham H]

Nothing should be kept from a student if he/she is progressing well. Here is an article by my Teacher and the same thinking applies to the dummy and the knives.



Training with the Long Pole
Written by Philipp Bayer

As i have noticed, there seem to be different opinions, on when the Long Pole should be introduced or can be introduced. Some even think it is unneccessary alltogether. Others seem to know everything and claim that in Hong Kong it was taught towards the end of the student´s development.

When my teacher came to Germany for he second time in 1986, he taught some of my students the first steps in the Long Pole training. Most of them had trained under me for 1 or 2 years. I myself had only known Sifu Wong for three years!

The reasons, that he taught it this early were manyfold: First, he thought that the pole was difficult to control and demanded a lot of practice over a long period of time to influence the development of Ving Tsun as a whole. Secondly , most start the pole at the zenith of their performance ability, so that little time remains to reap the benefits of such training.
Being able to take advantage of an opening is fundamental in the system. If one is unable to do so, all the punching power and fighting spirit will be obsolete.
Long pole training, especially the low stance contributes greatly to increased start speed and faster footwork.

Another important skill, developed through various pole exercises, is power from the unified body . Without this, punches are mechanical , deriving its power based on the diameter of the practitioners arms. Even somebody that has done „ArmVingTsun“ for 15 years is going to look like a raw beginner when starting this exercise. Unfortunately, he now is 15 years older and his Ving Tsun has missed out on 15 years of essential influences.

Another important point is the fact that long pole training not only increases punching power, but also punching precision, meaning concentrating max force at a small area of impact. More about that later in my book which will include some of Wong Shun Leungs teachings on weaponry, some of them handwritten and translated.
From my own experience can I say that there are some students, which can handle the long pole correctly without any knowledge of even the siu lim tao. There are also those, who after five years of hard training, can´t do the same.
Should the teacher therefore take the pole away from the more gifted person and postpone it for another 5 years?
Who would take away the crayon of a child that has shown to intuitively excel at painting, just because it is too early for that? Would one ban a third grader from school, just because he is at sixth grade skill level already, and even ahead of the others?
No! if one had just a little bit of brains, one would increase their skills through additional demands.

In Kung Fu and especially in Ving Tsun, where a holistic bodily development is emphazised, it is majorly important to start in your early years to get a decent final result, but if this development is blocked, postponed or thwarted at all, it is questionable that any result be achieved probably by now “turned grey” senior student, who might not be able to even lift the pole anymore.

Philipp Bayer

[ShortBridge]

WCGreg, here's an answer that you may not like and I may take some heat from other people over as well.

A student's relationship with a sifu should come down to this: Do you trust them to teach you what you need, when you're ready for it? If the answer is yes, even thinking what you're thinking is distracting you from your training and if you're not careful, could hurt your relationship with your sifu. It's your job to train, it's theirs to advance you when appropriate. Don't spend any energy worrying about their job, do yours and be patient. Worry about a few months or even a year is mis-guided.

If the answer is no, consider changing schools and finding a different sifu. Simple as that.

No one here can tell you what you're ready for. That's why we have sifus. It takes time to find the right one and it can take longer to form the right relationship with them. Sometimes it's about money, often it's not. You know better than we do, but there are no self-made-men in traditional martial arts.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I started training hung fa at age 10, and trained daily until I was 20, at which time I went into the military. I was the last one to enter service. In my life I have only taught a hand full of people. Other than my son, and my grand children, I have only trained a few others. The most students I have ever had at one time was 2. Brothers of the same age. I charged a huge amount of money right up front so that they would feel more like making it to my place each and every day. I was very intolorant of tardiness and absenteeism. I would teach them myself and didn't have a student stand in. And they came five days a week and stayed 3 hours a day. That is a good 15 hours a week. I never had them doing any physical training, as that was done on their time. They had 5 minutes to stretch and get ready. I taught and they learned. I made them all complete bil gee before the dummy. They had to know everything in order to dummy right. No poles or knives since it was not something practical and they were not wanting to show it off. Besides, I never learned them because they were not practical. In 2 years my two students were like machines.
In large schools you have to have levels or belts or whatever. You will have students at just about every stage of training, but can not have enough time for any individual, so you group them at stages of training so that you can do them in these groups more effectively. The more students you have, the less training you can give them.

[anerlich]

WCGreg, here's an answer that you may not like and I may take some heat from other people over as well.

A student's relationship with a sifu should come down to this: Do you trust them to teach you what you need, when you're ready for it? If the answer is yes, even thinking what you're thinking is distracting you from your training and if you're not careful, could hurt your relationship with your sifu. It's your job to train, it's theirs to advance you when appropriate. Don't spend any energy worrying about their job, do yours and be patient. Worry about a few months or even a year is mis-guided.


No heat from me - a good answer IMO.

Though I would prefer to have students who were self-motivated to learn, with enquiring minds, rather than waiting to be spoon-fed. I don't think that contradicts what you said, though.

[ShortBridge]

No heat from me - a good answer IMO.

Though I would prefer to have students who were self-motivated to learn, with enquiring minds, rather than waiting to be spoon-fed. I don't think that contradicts what you said, though.

No, I don't think that it does either.

[lance]

I've been doing Wing Chun for a little over a year and am grade 6, (leung ting lineage) which for those who don't know basically means just in the middle of intermediate and I love Wing Chun :)

I go to a school in Croydon, South London and there seems to be not much focus on weapons until Grade 8 and not much focus on wooden dummy until grade 12 which is considered black belt I think.

So my question is should I be concerned by this at all? I train 4 hours a week and a typical training session would be the first 2 forms and 2-3 footwork drills and then chi sau.

Thanks :)

WCgreg , it all depends on your Sifu , your sifu is teacning you right ? It all
deoends on him . So you just keep on practicing what your sifu taught you ,
then from there see what he ' ll teach you next . Who is your sifu anyway ?