Folding into strike

[Razaunida]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v89Y_FJ88&feature=relmfu See this a lot in Daoist systems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U28ht5sOQJo&feature=related

Slick elbows

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v89Y_FJ88&feature=relmfu See this a lot in Daoist systems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U28ht5sOQJo&feature=related

Slick elbows

slick id not a word that comes to mind when i see that......:eek:

[aussie1981]

This guy is a student of Master Yang Zhen hua of the Yang Mian system;)

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v89Y_FJ88&feature=relmfu See this a lot in Daoist systems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U28ht5sOQJo&feature=related

Slick elbows

are you kidding me?

the complete dynamic is removed with teh lack of actually striking. FOr pete's sake, he's using a dummy and not developing his force? THat's what the dummy is for!!!!!


!!!!!!


!!!!!!

******!!:mad:

[brothernumber9]

Watching these just makes me wanna curse out loud.
If the first video was remotely true, Andre the Giant would have been a serial killer.
This is the $h!t that makes CMA a joke to competetive fighters.

[bawang]

it looks gay

[David Jamieson]

yang mians student who founded wuxingdao admitted they made it all up

who? what?

lol, never even heard of that...

must of been made up. lol

[hskwarrior]

The fastest fighter ever.....wu xing dao....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3YnCM5ZIpI&feature=related

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Pure Ultimate Power!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j1-xQA_ufE

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4LcLvdNWk&feature=channel_video_title

[CLFLPstudent]

dlivk id not a word that comes to mind when i see that......:eek:

I don't know where I would ever use the word dlivk, but I agree with you....



-David

(emphasis added)

[aussie1981]

What he's trying to show is fluidity of movement without being limited by form, just doing what the body wants to do.

world class swimmers, snow boarders, fencers, and local fighter's all train this style. For Marko Vesse to claim that he was involved in INVENTING this style is an absolute joke!! His training in Yang Mian was Far from finished.

Man i must have been silly to take up this style after witnessing the skill and power the Lacey's and Rocky kwong of Wu tai chi, trust me i've been hit by choy lay fut masters and NOTHING compares to being hit by Master Yang or his senior students and i don't say lightly as i rate choy lay fut and wu style as unbelievably good arts and those maters are exceptional!!!! :cool:

[IronWeasel]

world class swimmers, snow boarders, fencers, and local fighter's all train this style.


Yes, swimmers and snow boarders are known for their consummate combat skills.


Coming soon:
UFC 200: Tony Hawk vs Michael Phelps

[Razaunida]

snowboarders know how to drop the kua.

The best beggining martial artists are surfers and snow boarders. You probably don't know that because after one hour a week kung fu you play dungeons and dragons and imagine that you are a real live martial artist.

[wenshu]

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1563/rise-and-decline-of-the-third-reich
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic878941_md.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic878941_md.jpg

Looks like he's one step away from taking out a child day care center with an uzi.

[teetsao]

what many of you here are missing is the intricacies. he is targeting specific points and he very fast. he is not going full power on his uki but demonstrating the way he attacks the targets.he is extremely fluid and each move melts into the next.he is also not showing everything to you. there is more ,as we have this in our system. his power generation woud be extreme ,if he wanted it to be.

[IronWeasel]

snowboarders know how to drop the kua.

The best beggining martial artists are surfers and snow boarders. You probably don't know that because after one hour a week kung fu you play dungeons and dragons and imagine that you are a real live martial artist.

I love me some D&D!

And many hours of Third Reich too...

AND I can defeat everyone in this forum except three people.

[David Jamieson]

what many of you here are missing is the intricacies. he is targeting specific points and he very fast. he is not going full power on his uki but demonstrating the way he attacks the targets.he is extremely fluid and each move melts into the next.he is also not showing everything to you. there is more ,as we have this in our system. his power generation woud be extreme ,if he wanted it to be.

Why bother showing at all?

When a baker creates a loaf of artisan bread and wants to show it, he shows it.

a guy using another guy in a series of compliant drills doesn't cut it as valued demonstration anymore.

In this case, it's a big hand job with a guy basically wanting to show how fast he is.

Big fricking deal I say. Why? Because there is a huge difference once his first strike contacts something and THAT is where the real skill to maintain flow comes. Not waving your arms in the air like you just don't care.

That's hogwash and suitable for 1 time show me demo only, then follow with surface striking, then moving surface, then free style. Anything less is garbage or poor instruction.

I apologize for nothing. These lame ways of instructing are dead. Get with the times.

shape is the first thing, then use. compliance training should be the shortest part of it.

[pazman]

What he's trying to show is fluidity of movement without being limited by form, just doing what the body wants to do.

world class swimmers, snow boarders, fencers, and local fighter's all train this style. For Marko Vesse to claim that he was involved in INVENTING this style is an absolute joke!! His training in Yang Mian was Far from finished.

Man i must have been silly to take up this style after witnessing the skill and power the Lacey's and Rocky kwong of Wu tai chi, trust me i've been hit by choy lay fut masters and NOTHING compares to being hit by Master Yang or his senior students and i don't say lightly as i rate choy lay fut and wu style as unbelievably good arts and those maters are exceptional!!!! :cool:

Cool, I looked up Master Yang and found this "shoot defense" garbage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBsZAQR27zk

My favorite quote from the video:
"Hey Master, try throwing a hook punch, and I'll duck under, 'cause that's what they do."

Who are 'they'?

And why doesn't Master Yang know how to throw a hook punch?:rolleyes:

[Ozzy Dave]

Yang Mian is the business and has quite a following here in Oz.

The use of the elbow is very well represented in the system.

If as your location indicates you're in Wuhan ask around about Mian (continuous) Quan, it has a good reputation in China for combative application.

Dave

[lkfmdc]

Yang Mian is the business and has quite a following here in Oz.

The use of the elbow is very well represented in the system.

If as your location indicates you're in Wuhan ask around about Mian (continuous) Quan, it has a good reputation in China for combative application.

Dave

His system has a lot of elbows and he is well regarded in Oz and China

None of that changes the fact his student isn't doing the takedown properly, isn't giving him penetration and thus the technique is basically garbage....

[lkfmdc]

oh, and this is "extra special"

http://www.youtube.com/user/MICHAELROBERTTROTT#p/a/u/2/9o64XVBC-cg

[Minghequan]

Omg! Really? Omg! Really? Omg! Really? Sorry ... no.

http://www.yangmian.com/

http://www.invisiblemaster.com/

[Ozzy Dave]

I'm not interested in arguing how someone chooses to advertise their business, I'll leave that to the professionals to wrangle over.

I am surprised however that people are so ready to lambast stuff they haven't trained in and people they haven't met.

My experience FWIW is that Yang Mian has great gung fa, in fact Mian Quan as a style is based on gung fa as the main training method not forms.

That's why I asked you ikfmdc why you made this comment in the ""gray areas" in TCMA in relation to fighting" thread.

"Thing like the gam gong lihn gong (Vajra yoga), Sahp Batt Lo Han (18 lo han) and Tit Sin (wire) are great internal training, but getting that info into the hands of the modern student is NOT easy. "

As I haven't received a response from you there, don't suppose you'd like to give me a response to that question here?

Again FWIW, my opinion is that basing training around the power and attribute development methods of a traditional system seems like a very good starting point and in essence is the only thing that really would differentiate a so called TCMA approach to training.

Dave

[lkfmdc]

I'm not interested in arguing how someone chooses to advertise their business, I'll leave that to the professionals to wrangle over.



it isn't at all about "advertising", it's about something that is clearly 100% horse hockey




I am surprised however that people are so ready to lambast stuff they haven't trained in and people they haven't met.



I don't have to train in "main quan" or know the guy to know that what he is showing would never work. I know it because I've trained with a LOT of high level wrestlers, I know what a real leg takedown looks like, I know how it works and I know what he is showing is none of the above :rolleyes:

[pazman]

Ozzy Dave, you never addressed why Master Yang's student doesn't look like he knows anything about a takedown. If you can't perform the technique in the first place, how can you show the defense against it?

If mianquan has a good reputation in China then it should be easy for you to direct me to the local mianquan teacher here in Wuhan. :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

snowboarders know how to drop the kua.

The best beggining martial artists are surfers and snow boarders. You probably don't know that because after one hour a week kung fu you play dungeons and dragons and imagine that you are a real live martial artist.

i was really suprised at how much cross over in attributes and balance control skateboarding had given me when i first started training. i started with better stance work and footwork than most people who had been training for some time. concrete is very unforgivable and you have to be extremely fast on your feet, and with your whole body reactions if you want to have a half way decent run at long term boarding.

[Yum Cha]

I'm coming down with Aussie Dave on this one. And not for National reasons.

That guy is just training, demonstrating some light combinations, to extrapolate that into his full exercise of martial arts is not valid.

You can see there is internal stability and focus, core power if it makes you more comfortable, in his shoulder barge and elbows. It doesn't mean he can fight, but it says to me he can hit hard.

His faster strkes, well targeted and executed multiple strikes per breath. Fast enough to injure and distract for the finishing blow, I'm seeing skill.

[Lucas]

if you guys are talking about the guy in the first vid then i think he looks like he would be able to defend himself.

[pazman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtwESnbM0A

Wait, sorry guys. I think I misspoke. This guy seems totally legit.:o

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o64XVBC-cg&feature=related

could this be just an elaborate troll? we certainly hope so :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

:eek:I didn't see anyone dying in that death touch video.....

has to be a faker....

[lkfmdc]

:eek:I didn't see anyone dying in that death touch video.....

has to be a faker....

he will die EVENTUALLY, if he told you when (and how) that would spoil the secret

(but he insists that some day he will die!)

[Ozzy Dave]

Ozzy Dave, you never addressed why Master Yang's student doesn't look like he knows anything about a takedown. If you can't perform the technique in the first place, how can you show the defense against it?

I can’t say, I don’t know the context of the footage but I don’t read it as how to train a response in a competitive environment as you guys seem to do, more of a concept discussion.

I do know that Yang Zhen Hua teaches his conditioning methods to athletes that compete in contact sports like Boxing, MMA and Rugby and gets praised for the results.


If mianquan has a good reputation in China then it should be easy for you to direct me to the local mianquan teacher here in Wuhan.

C’mon mate TCMA don’t work that way, they’re more regional in context than the ubiquitous San Da and Wu Shu which is why I suggested you to ask around your local community for contacts, if you really want to pursue this then pm me.


I don't have to train in "main quan" or know the guy to know that what he is showing would never work. I know it because I've trained with a LOT of high level wrestlers, I know what a real leg takedown looks like, I know how it works and I know what he is showing is none of the above

Yes you do if you are dismissing individuals as martial artists and a whole style in regards to its overall effectiveness which is what I’m reading from your posts on this thread (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) otherwise you’re just indulging in nihilistically myopic intellectual twaddle.

Hey didn't your Shi Fu do this one too?

http://www.yangmian.com/videos/22b.wmv

Cheers Yum Cha, a balanced appraisal as always.

Dave

[lkfmdc]

I can’t say, I don’t know the context of the footage but I don’t read it as how to train a response in a competitive environment as you guys seem to do, more of a concept discussion.



you seem to fail to understand there are kids in highschool who have been on the wrestling team and do better (MUCH better) takedowns than the crap in that video. The idea that "for the street" you should assume the other guy knows nothing and is an idiot is absurd




Hey didn't your Shi Fu do this one too?

http://www.yangmian.com/videos/22b.wmv



while my sifu did a lot of chi kung tricks to entertain people, when it came to fighting he never showed the kind of crap shown in the mian quan videos :rolleyes:

Clearly you are wearing a blindfold and running around the room with your fingers in your ears because you are failing to listen to anyone

[Snipsky]

you seem to fail to understand there are kids in highschool who have been on the wrestling team and do better (MUCH better) takedowns than the crap in that video. The idea that "for the street" you should assume the other guy knows nothing and is an idiot is absurd

I agree with that statement. You should always expect that someone you run into on the streets will know something or may be a really good fighter. or you will end up on the losing side

[faxiapreta]

if you guys are talking about the guy in the first vid then i think he looks like he would be able to defend himself.

Amazing the bull$hit some gullible people will believe when they see compliant demos.

[Snipsky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U28ht5sOQJo&feature=related

In regards to the above video...my girl comments: "wow, he has fast elbows. but the other guy has no arms. he's not fighting back. is he that fast when fighting someone?"......LOL

[Lucas]

watched the first two bids....fighting isn't that difficult man. From watching that guy just do some punches its pretty I obvious he has some training. Certainly enough to be able to defend himself. Anyone who can box can do so. You simply let your own prejudices and hate dictate your thoughts. For you there only seem to be deadly killers and wimps...that is not how things work. If we se t that guy out on the street and had him fight 5 random people I bet he would do fine. I would bet money on it. Besides we all know your opinions are kind of worthless.

[faxiapreta]

In regards to the above video...my girl comments: "wow, he has fast elbows. but the other guy has no arms. he's not fighting back. is he that fast when fighting someone?"......LOL

This http://www.farinofitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/up-arrow.jpg

[faxiapreta]

watched the first two bids....fighting isn't that difficult man. From watching that guy just do some punches its pretty I obvious he has some training. Certainly enough to be able to defend himself. Anyone who can box can do so. You simply let your own prejudices and hate dictate your thoughts. For you there only seem to be deadly killers and wimps...that is not how things work. If we se t that guy out on the street and had him fight 5 random people I bet he would do fine. I would bet money on it. Besides we all know your opinions are kind of worthless.

More than likely, he wouldn't do to well. People who do demos like that pretty much show they don't know much about the dynamics of actual fighting when someone is resisting and trying to hurt you back.

There's a reason you never, ever see anyone fighting the way he was demonstrating.

[Lucas]

Uh all I saw on those two videos were punching combos, and yes people use punching combinations in real fights.you have a distorted idea of what real fighting is like. Its really easy to fight. If your talking about elite sport fighting, that is different.. Against your average person...not so much. You are living in fantasy land if you think it takes more than basic boxing skills to get in fights and do ok. Go live outside a gym for a while...anyone who has fought on the street would understand this. :)

You can't beat me in a battle of wits. I feel bad anyway since you are un armed.

[Snipsky]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM0JbE7LdCIrzJzRJQxXn7P5S3tPpjd 454WLbhQ0pPoEkVN7oPgw

[faxiapreta]

Uh all I saw on those two videos were punching combos, and yes people use punching combinations in real fights.you have a distorted idea of what real fighting is like. Its really easy to fight. If your talking about elite sport fighting, that is different.. Against your average person...not so much. You are living in fantasy land if you think it takes more than basic boxing skills to get in fights and do ok. Go live outside a gym for a while...anyone who has fought on the street would understand this. :)

You can't beat me in a battle of wits. I feel bad anyway since you are un armed.

Is it easy to fight? Sure. Any third grader can fight.

Are those combos something he could use in fight against someone who was as big and/or strong as him? Probably not.

Of course, considering the fact that he only does this against compliant partners, we can't say one way or the other. What we can say is that history tends to show the complaint partner thing mostly not a good indication of what someone can do in a non-compliant situation.

As far as wits, you are as bad in that area as this guys is in his demos. You only have wits in relation to complying partners.

[lkfmdc]

compare the "takedown" in the yang mian video to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBz5A0Nhg90

[Lucas]

As far as wits, you are as bad in that area as this guys is in his demos. You only have wits in relation to complying partners.

lol you are such a joke. tell me, what do you know about me? oh wait...absolutely nothing other than my name and where i live, because i dont hide.

[faxiapreta]

lol you are such a joke. tell me, what do you know about me? oh wait...absolutely nothing other than my name and where i live, because i dont hide.

Enough to know that you don't have much of an intellect.

[Snipsky]

Enough to know that you don't have much of an intellect.

Because i practice a horse stance i can just walk up and take anyones intellect. and they won't do anything about it.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.new-age-store.info/funny-t-shirt-images/funny-t-shirt-i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i.jpg

[Snipsky]

LALALALALALALALALA i can't hear you......but check out my phoenix eye fist!!!!!

http://img5.visualizeus.com/thumbs/1c/79/baby,headphones,funny,music,photography,beb%C3%AA-1c792da309784a69f7badb5c793417aa_h.jpg

[Lucas]

Enough to know that you don't have much of an intellect.

sure, sure. :rolleyes: i actually am brain dead in real life. i am average on the scale at a 125 iq.

its funny how easily i got under your skin when i simply said you dont have much wits. when i resort to your level you like to play. you are pretty simple and easy to figure out. i mean we can dictate your posts before you do.

[faxiapreta]

sure, sure. :rolleyes: i actually am brain dead in real life. i am average on the scale at a 125 iq.

its funny how easily i got under your skin when i simply said you dont have much wits. when i resort to your level you like to play. you are pretty simple and easy to figure out. i mean we can dictate your posts before you do.


Another kung fu troll with no smarts or imagination.


Thanks for proving my point yet again.

[Lucas]

oh i have prooven some sort of point? in your mind surely. but then you proove your points to yourself all day long on anything you want. it however does not mean anyone lives in your fantasy realm with you. you do make some good points for sure, but you are also an extremist who has no grey areas...life is all about the grey areas man. i'll still call you on your bull****. your just jealous cuz u know most anyone with fast hands can whoop you, 5 year olds included.

[Snipsky]

Another kung fu troll with no smarts or imagination.


Thanks for proving my point yet again.

How is Lucas a troll? He comes to a Kung Fu forum and talks kung fu. to be fair, you don't do kung fu but here you are on a kung fu forum attacking old and outdated methods of training utilized by many kung fu schools.

now who is the troll, really? :confused:

[faxiapreta]

How is Lucas a troll? He comes to a Kung Fu forum and talks kung fu. to be fair, you don't do kung fu but here you are on a kung fu forum attacking old and outdated methods of training utilized by many kung fu schools.

now who is the troll, really? :confused:

He pretends to believe the fake b.s. shown to get a reaction out of the people who know it is b.s.

[Lucas]

i cannot be phased by troll accusations. :D

[Lucas]

He pretends to believe the fake b.s. shown to get a reaction out of the people who know it is b.s.

actually no. you need some comprehension when reading peoples responses. what i said is if you know some boxing combinations its not hard to fight regular people. duh. and with the boxing combinations i saw in the first 2 vids in this thread, the guy would be able to defend himself.

oh but hes not an elite super mma fighter so its impossible..you need perspective man.

[Ozzy Dave]

The idea that "for the street" you should assume the other guy knows nothing and is an idiot is absurd

I’d appreciate it if you don’t put words in my mouth.


while my sifu did a lot of chi kung tricks to entertain people

Indeed, entertaining is part of the mix when teaching is your rice bowl as is pandering to the punters expectations but aside from that such “chi kung tricks” also show a level of athletic attainment.

Has your stable of fighters’ performance improved through you teaching them “gam gong lihn gong” or “Sahp Batt Lo Han”?


when it came to fighting he never showed the kind of crap shown in the mian quan videos :rolleyes:

Witty but no cigar, that’s as inane as me saying Lama is crap because you fight with your arms down.


Clearly you are wearing a blindfold and running around the room with your fingers in your ears because you are failing to listen to anyone

That’s the best example of projection I’ve seen today. No, I’m just trying to provide a counterpoint to your antagonistic and superficial ramblings about a style that I’ve actually trained in and you haven’t.

Dave

[lkfmdc]

I’d appreciate it if you don’t put words in my mouth.



I didn't in the least, you said


I can’t say, I don’t know the context of the footage but I don’t read it as how to train a response in a competitive environment


Clearly you are saying "it isn't for sport" and what I'm saying is that it isn't about "sport" / "competitive environment"

It either works or it doesn't. IN this case, it doesn't work, it's crap





Witty but no cigar, that’s as inane as me saying Lama is crap because you fight with your arms down.



we don't, as in DO NOT, fight with our arms down, but thanks for playing :rolleyes:

Again, nice ducking the issue, the first clip isn't a chi kung demo, it's an attempt to show an APPLICATION - in this case an application that doesn't work!






No, I’m just trying to provide a counterpoint to your antagonistic and superficial ramblings about a style that I’ve actually trained in and you haven’t.

Dave

ah! you got your panties in a bunch because it is YOUR style! LMFAO.

My "superficial" observations come from having trained actual fighters, having put them in rings and cages, and having them win for like 20 years now.

"antagonistic"? yeah, I hate bull****

[TAO YIN]

Lkfmdc,

Are you ever going to answer the Gam Gong Linh Gong, yoga, what have you question? Just curious.

[lkfmdc]

Lkfmdc,

Are you ever going to answer the Gam Gong Linh Gong, yoga, what have you question? Just curious.

It was answered a long time ago, and is irrelevant to anything being discussed here

What we have is a guy showing "his" application of a "takedown defense" and it simply doesn't work

It isn't a chi kung trick, it isn't put up there to "entertain"

It shows that he has no idea what a real takedown is. It shows he has no idea how it works

It shows that mr internal master apparently could be taken down by a kid with a little high school wrestling

That is obviously going to upset his loyal followers, but the truth doesn't bend to protect delicate feelings, sorry bout that

[TAO YIN]

That's cool. I must have missed it answered. I didn't know that Lama Pai had those exercises, first time I have heard that. But it sure makes sense with some of the demos I have seen of CTS. Or are these exercises not in Lama Pai? Maybe I'm totally wrong here, really I have no idea and just saw Ozzy Dave mentioned those things and was curious.

Cheers,

[Ozzy Dave]

I didn't in the least, you said "I can’t say, I don’t know the context of the footage but I don’t read it as how to train a response in a competitive environment"

Sure and then I said "more of a concept discussion"


Clearly you are saying "it isn't for sport" and what I'm saying is that it isn't about "sport" / "competitive environment"

I'll try again. Its looks to me like a demo showing the concept of a folding elbow, it certainly doesn't show two people competing in non compliant drill or competition which seems to be what you what it to be in order to have any credibility.

I actually don't know why you are so worked up about it to the point that you have to start another whole thread but hey whatever rings your bell.


we don't, as in DO NOT, fight with our arms down, but thanks for playing :rolleyes:

No, I'm sure not nowadays but my point is that generalisations should not be taken from mere observations.


Again, nice ducking the issue

Cheers, but I think the "issue" is yours, the thread is actually about folding elbows.

Why don't you play nice for a change and show us a folding elbow application out of Lama, I know you have them.


the first clip isn't a chi kung demo, it's an attempt to show an APPLICATION - in this case an application that doesn't work!

No, but the one I posted was.

Do you mean you will only answer my questions if they agree with your agenda?


ah! you got your panties in a bunch because it is YOUR style! LMFAO.

I prefer to go commando actually.


My "superficial" observations come from having trained actual fighters, having put them in rings and cages, and having them win for like 20 years now.

Bravo, it still doesn't counter the fact that you don't have any first hand experience of the people or martial art you're ridiculing and that's my "issue".

Dave

[Ozzy Dave]

It was answered a long time ago

I've missed it too, could you point me to your answer please.

Dave

[Kevin73]

The thing about the video showing "real" takedowns, is EVERY SINGLE one of them using the leg the person doing the takedown smacks his knee on the mat while doing it. You don't do that while in the street and not injure yourself. Same thing in any other sport competition, the rings allow for that.

In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown. The only exceptions to that were where both people were consenting to fight (ego fight) and kept escalating and they were on grass to do it. You see alot of pick ups and slams or bodylocks around the waist with a trip, or even a tackle around the waist, but not a low takedown like most wrestlers use in the video.

Competitive fighting takes a very high level skill and because of that you will see more basic techniques (high percentage moves). The greater the skill discrepancy, the more you can pull off a lower percentage move. For example, in one of his fights Rickson Gracie had someone do a low shoot on him. His defense was to roll OVER the person's back. If someone on here showed that same defense everyone would talk smack about how that would NEVER work and it was BS.

I know I can do different things with a drunk who throws a big telegraphed haymaker and over extends himself (which is most of the time in assaults) than someone who keeps a tight structure and doesn't do that. Everyone only looks at the 2nd type of opponent and then says that everything else is crap. You need to train both.

[lkfmdc]

I'll try again. Its looks to me like a demo showing the concept of a folding elbow,



OMG! You can't possibly be serious!

The title of the video is
Yang mian System Shoot defence

The description of the video is
Master Yang shoot take-down defence

But you don't think the video is about defending against a takedown? :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Another faulty premise of the single-elbow-of-doom "shoot defense" concept is the assumption that a wrestler won't know how to take an elbow in the back.

Frankly, between the folk wrestling, the judo, the SC and the JJ that I did there is pretty much nowhere I haven't been elbowed at some point in time. You soak it up.

And if your opponent is busy elbowing you and not busy actually preparing a defense against an ankle pick or a double-leg they won't have the time for a second elbow.

[lkfmdc]

In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWDxhvI5Y0g

http://www.explosivefightvideos.com/fightvideos/645/african-street-fight.html

http://www.streetfightdump.com/street-fights/116/two-minutes-of-awesome-street-fights.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADAq1JKGHEs

you need to get out more

[sanjuro_ronin]

A downward elbow to the back ( any part) will not work ( typically) against a shoot and there are a mirad of reason for that:
Here are just a few
- The momentum of the shoot against your core negates the effectiveness of the downward elbow
- The angle is not optimal for the DW elbow
- The short distance needed to apply it from the "surprise shoot" ( remember that you don't know what he is doing and any decent grappler will set up the shoot so you are a "step behind" him and reacting to what he is doing) negates most of the power of the DW elbow.

The real big one is the fact that you do NOT know the shoot is coming and when it does you are reacting and for the DW elbow to work that means the guy is in close, which means the shoot is already going on and he has made contact, which means your balance and core have been compromised.

Now, IF you are thinking elbow VS a shoot, I would suggest a crushing forward elbow to the head/neck as he comes in BEFORE he makes contact.

But even then, footwork is a better bet.

[SimonM]

Footwork is always crucial.

That said, your point is very valid. Wrestlers, regardless of the type of wrestling, deal in balance and momentum heavily. If you don't have good control over your balance and your momentum they'll put you on the ground.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7EpK4qJBsQ

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11e_1282751442

http://www.yikers.com/video_street_fighter_vs_wrestler.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKVaQetmOaE

thank G'd no one ever uses wrestling in a street fight!

[faxiapreta]

The thing about the video showing "real" takedowns, is EVERY SINGLE one of them using the leg the person doing the takedown smacks his knee on the mat while doing it. You don't do that while in the street and not injure yourself. Same thing in any other sport competition, the rings allow for that.

In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown. The only exceptions to that were where both people were consenting to fight (ego fight) and kept escalating and they were on grass to do it. You see alot of pick ups and slams or bodylocks around the waist with a trip, or even a tackle around the waist, but not a low takedown like most wrestlers use in the video.

Competitive fighting takes a very high level skill and because of that you will see more basic techniques (high percentage moves). The greater the skill discrepancy, the more you can pull off a lower percentage move. For example, in one of his fights Rickson Gracie had someone do a low shoot on him. His defense was to roll OVER the person's back. If someone on here showed that same defense everyone would talk smack about how that would NEVER work and it was BS.

I know I can do different things with a drunk who throws a big telegraphed haymaker and over extends himself (which is most of the time in assaults) than someone who keeps a tight structure and doesn't do that. Everyone only looks at the 2nd type of opponent and then says that everything else is crap. You need to train both.

Gotta love the guys who have never been in an actual altercation on the street (even though they "claim" law enforcement or street fighting expereince) who don't realize that you can easily take all kinds of minor damage such as slamming your knee into concrete and not feel a thing until later on the next day.

[Kevin73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7EpK4qJBsQ

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11e_1282751442

http://www.yikers.com/video_street_fighter_vs_wrestler.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKVaQetmOaE

thank G'd no one ever uses wrestling in a street fight!

As with your above post linking videos you proved the point. All of those fights contained everything I stated in my post.

1) Ego fights will have takedowns as I stated because they are a contest (even if not sanctioned). The clips you posted that did were where both parties were escalating into an ego fight and both had the chance to leave or they were sport fights on camera (ie: dudes with their shirts off dancing around)

2) They were either pick up and slams or tackles at the waist. I did not see one low single leg takedown as you showed in your first wrestling video as a skilled wrestler would do, again as I stated in my previous post of how takedowns occur. I never once stated that they don't happen, they just are the mythical shoot that a skilled wrestler does.

I have also spoken with a LEO from LAPD who has been on the job for over 30 years who teaches MA and he also had the same observations about the use of takedowns and when they occur.

You need to get out more and understand what you are actually watching. If self-defense is what you are training for it is alot more than the physical techniques that you train.

[Kevin73]

Gotta love the guys who have never been in an actual altercation on the street (even though they "claim" law enforcement or street fighting expereince) who don't realize that you can easily take all kinds of minor damage such as slamming your knee into concrete and not feel a thing until later on the next day.

Gotta love people who know nothing except sports and claim they know what actually happens. I never once said that smacking your knee on the concrete would stop you, just that for that reason even the wrestlers I have watched get into fights never did the takedowns as they trained to do on the street.

I've been in altercations on the street before and they were over quick. I have been able to deescalate tons more through awareness and verbal skills which is the ulitmate goal, so I don't HAVE to brag about how many fights I have gotten into. I'm not some young buck on here who has to prove how tough he is

Read and research the topic, actually talk to law enforcement on all the fights they have seen and you will see that almost all of them fall into the categories that I talked about.

[lkfmdc]

oh come on, fess up
:rolleyes:




In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown.



it took me 3 minutes to find more than 50 regular old street brawls with takedowns, so then you say




Ego fights will have takedowns



oh please ! :rolleyes:

I need to "get out more"? LMFAO .... do you think the "yang mian shoot defense" would have worked in ANY of those links I put up :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

PS: LOOK MORE CLOSELY

at least THREE of those clips had guys dropping to a knee to get the takedown. One even used the classic wrestling grapevine hooking trip

[TenTigers]

I have also spoken with a LEO from LAPD who has been on the job for over 30 years who teaches MA and he also had the same observations about the use of takedowns and when they occur.

this isn't an attack on you, Kevin. It's just that your statement brought up an amusing thought. Nearby, there's a school run by an ex-cop, and he uses that same line. The thing is, he teaches this absolute nonsense, made-up wing chun style. It's so made-up, he doesn't even pronounce it correctly-and he created the name! (meaning he uses Chinese words mispronounced)
Being a cop on the jpb for 30 years, doesn't always have the credibility one would think. Just sayin...

[faxiapreta]

They were either pick up and slams or tackles at the waist. I did not see one low single leg takedown as you showed in your first wrestling video as a skilled wrestler would do, again as I stated in my previous post of how takedowns occur. I never once stated that they don't happen, they just are the mythical shoot that a skilled wrestler does..

What you will see (and did see in those clips) is one guy on his knees from a scramble moving into the knee down takedown.

[faxiapreta]

I have also spoken with a LEO from LAPD who has been on the job for over 30 years who teaches MA and he also had the same observations about the use of takedowns and when they occur.

You need to get out more and understand what you are actually watching. If self-defense is what you are training for it is alot more than the physical techniques that you train.


Last time I checked, there aren't a lot of high level wrestlers getting into fights in front of police officers.

That being said, even the more sloppy takedowns you might normally see aren't going to be stopped by the techniques shown in the clips with the crappy takedown defenses being referenced here.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.yikers.com/video_street_fighter_vs_wrestler.html

what do you see here?

[Kevin73]

oh please ! :rolleyes:

I need to "get out more"? LMFAO .... do you think the "yang mian shoot defense" would have worked in ANY of those links I put up :rolleyes:

Nope, I don't think it would work at all. In that clip as he doing his "counter" the attacker just stops, even in an unskilled tackle there is huge amounts of forward momentum. Then at one point he bends back to get the angle he wanted which would completely give up his structure to enable even a bad takedown attempt.

Reread my first post again. See where I changed my position or where your clips illustrated something different.


In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown. The only exceptions to that were where both people were consenting to fight (ego fight) and kept escalating and they were on grass to do it. You see alot of pick ups and slams or bodylocks around the waist with a trip, or even a tackle around the waist, but not a low takedown like most wrestlers use in the video.



Now you have changed it to me saying there are no takedowns in a fight. I SPECIFICALLY stated a premise and if you change the premise than the argument is something different. Stay on task now. Which would you like to discuss? A skilled low takedown as set up by a shoot, or a takedown period?

[Kevin73]

What you will see (and did see in those clips) is one guy on his knees from a scramble moving into the knee down takedown.

Yep. I agree, but I wouldn't classify that as the wrestler's shoot we were first talking about.

[Kevin73]

http://www.yikers.com/video_street_fighter_vs_wrestler.html

what do you see here?

Got it to load if you saw the other post saying it didn't work.

Anyways, I saw what I posted in my first post, which I'll quote


In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown. The only exceptions to that were where both people were consenting to fight (ego fight) and kept escalating and they were on grass to do it. You see alot of pick ups and slams or bodylocks around the waist with a trip, or even a tackle around the waist, but not a low takedown like most wrestlers use in the video.

[faxiapreta]

Gotta love people who know nothing except sports and claim they know what actually happens. I never once said that smacking your knee on the concrete would stop you, just that for that reason even the wrestlers I have watched get into fights never did the takedowns as they trained to do on the street.


Here's what you said:


The thing about the video showing "real" takedowns, is EVERY SINGLE one of them using the leg the person doing the takedown smacks his knee on the mat while doing it. You don't do that while in the street and not injure yourself.

The fact is you can easily do a knee to the ground takedown and either not injure yourself or bang your knee so slightly that you aren't even going to notice it.

Not to mention the fact that just getting into a street fight means you are probably going to at least get some kinds of injury along the way.

[Kevin73]

Here's what you said:



The fact is you can easily do a knee to the ground takedown and either not injure yourself or bang your knee so slightly that you aren't even going to notice it.

Not to mention the fact that just getting into a street fight means you are probably going to at least get some kinds of injury along the way.

I'll agree with that. I didn't make what I was trying to say on that clear. The reason, one of the kids in a local school here tried a single leg as he had practiced tons before on the mats and shattered his kneecap on the floor as he went in. Needless to say, it was not something he didn't notice until the next day. That is what always sticks in my mind when I think about that.

[lkfmdc]

NO, in those clips in many instances what you are seeing is NOT "bodylocks around the waist with a trip"

There are plenty of "leg takedowns" there, including low diving ones

You're in Michigan, not Detroit by any chance? I know a lot of people associated with the Detroit Judo Club, also called the Detroit "POLICE" club... do you know what I am talking about

Michigan is also a pretty big wrestling state

At least you aren't trying to claim the "yang mian" clip is a good defense

[Kevin73]

Last time I checked, there aren't a lot of high level wrestlers getting into fights in front of police officers.

That being said, even the more sloppy takedowns you might normally see aren't going to be stopped by the techniques shown in the clips with the crappy takedown defenses being referenced here.

In total agreement on that. But how many high level athletes do we really see getting into fights anyways?

I also agree about the sloppy takedowns that are just midget hugs in disguise and aren't even a BAD takedown attempt like you might see. Also, that the crappy defenses are only good if you had a midget hugging you around the waist.

[Kevin73]

NO, in those clips in many instances what you are seeing is NOT "bodylocks around the waist with a trip"

There are plenty of "leg takedowns" there, including low diving ones

You're in Michigan, not Detroit by any chance? I know a lot of people associated with the Detroit Judo Club, also called the Detroit "POLICE" club... do you know what I am talking about

Michigan is also a pretty big wrestling state

At least you aren't trying to claim the "yang mian" clip is a good defense

You just asked what I saw in the last clip you posted, if you are changing criteria again, then let me know so we are on the same page. In that last clip you posted, I saw shirtless guy grabbing him around the waist and then using his leg to trip him. Sorry, if my terminology is off. Also, in that last clip how did it end? Oh yeah, them shaking hands because it was a set up fight and not an assault.

Michigan is a very big wrestling state, which is why I also feel pretty confident about my observations. READ what I have written. Don't assume you know what I wrote and then distort or generalize. AGAIN, I put very specific criteria on what I said. If you choose to ignore those, than there is no point in discussing any further. I NEVER said that takedowns don't happen, I said a specific one doesn't happen, and there hasn't been a single video shown that shows one. All the ones shown are the ones I have said DO HAPPEN.

I'm on the other side of the state. Haven't been there to visit. I would be curious though to see what their take is on the matter.

[faxiapreta]

You just asked what I saw in the last clip you posted, if you are changing criteria again, then let me know so we are on the same page. In that last clip you posted, I saw shirtless guy grabbing him around the waist and then using his leg to trip him. Sorry, if my terminology is off. Also, in that last clip how did it end? Oh yeah, them shaking hands because it was a set up fight and not an assault.

Michigan is a very big wrestling state, which is why I also feel pretty confident about my observations. READ what I have written. Don't assume you know what I wrote and then distort or generalize. AGAIN, I put very specific criteria on what I said. If you choose to ignore those, than there is no point in discussing any further. I NEVER said that takedowns don't happen, I said a specific one doesn't happen, and there hasn't been a single video shown that shows one. All the ones shown are the ones I have said DO HAPPEN.

I'm on the other side of the state. Haven't been there to visit. I would be curious though to see what their take is on the matter.

I'm not sure what your original point was anyway, considering the fact that you realize the defense shown in the clip is pretty bad.

I don't think anyone was really saying you are going to get taken down with textbook takedowns.

I think the implication is if you can learn to defend the textbook takedowns, you'll have a lot better chance at the sloppy ones.

[lkfmdc]

I'm not sure what your original point was anyway, considering the fact that you realize the defense shown in the clip is pretty bad.

I don't think anyone was really saying you are going to get taken down with textbook takedowns.

I think the implication is if you can learn to defend the textbook takedowns, you'll have a lot better chance at the sloppy ones.

EXACTLY THIS... particularly "I'm not sure what your original point was anyway, considering the fact that you realize the defense shown in the clip is pretty bad." :confused:

[Kevin73]

this isn't an attack on you, Kevin. It's just that your statement brought up an amusing thought. Nearby, there's a school run by an ex-cop, and he uses that same line. The thing is, he teaches this absolute nonsense, made-up wing chun style. It's so made-up, he doesn't even pronounce it correctly-and he created the name! (meaning he uses Chinese words mispronounced)
Being a cop on the jpb for 30 years, doesn't always have the credibility one would think. Just sayin...

good point, can't win for loosing. Didn't point it out as if I'm some big bad ass, just that I see more fights and violence than the average person does and it allows me to see more of the patterns.

[Kevin73]

Competitive fighting takes a very high level skill and because of that you will see more basic techniques (high percentage moves). The greater the skill discrepancy, the more you can pull off a lower percentage move. For example, in one of his fights Rickson Gracie had someone do a low shoot on him. His defense was to roll OVER the person's back. If someone on here showed that same defense everyone would talk smack about how that would NEVER work and it was BS.

I know I can do different things with a drunk who throws a big telegraphed haymaker and over extends himself (which is most of the time in assaults) than someone who keeps a tight structure and doesn't do that. Everyone only looks at the 2nd type of opponent and then says that everything else is crap. You need to train both.


This was my point of the first post which everyone missed and only focused on a side comment that most takedowns are not skilled attempts and weren't like the low single legs used in the first video.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sure and then I said "more of a concept discussion"
how can you discuss a concept with any validity if the context within which the "discussion: occurs is totally contrived? in other words, you can't "discuss" the "folding elbow" as a viable defense against a shoot attack if the shoot is not done according to the standard principles; the best you can say is it is a pre-arranged demo against a partial / poorly done shoot;
I imagine that if someone suggested to Yang to try to do it against an actual wrestler doing if full tilt and correctly, he's say that he couldn't because his technique is so deadly that he would just end up maiming the wrestler :rolleyes:


this isn't an attack on you, Kevin. It's just that your statement brought up an amusing thought. Nearby, there's a school run by an ex-cop, and he uses that same line. The thing is, he teaches this absolute nonsense, made-up wing chun style. It's so made-up, he doesn't even pronounce it correctly-and he created the name! (meaning he uses Chinese words mispronounced)
Being a cop on the jpb for 30 years, doesn't always have the credibility one would think. Just sayin...
I know who your talking about, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah...:D

srsly - I've seen the guys vids, drove by his school - it's some scary shiite, man...

(the name reminds of something lower intestinal related, don't know why, lol)

[Ozzy Dave]

I imagine that if someone suggested to Yang to try to do it against an actual wrestler doing if full tilt and correctly, he's say that he couldn't because his technique is so deadly that he would just end up maiming the wrestler :rolleyes:

That's a rather tired and frankly passe cliche.

From memory the last time I had someone say something like that to me was a Tai Ji Quan teacher back in the 80s.

Please don't insult my intelligence so blatantly.

Dave

[aussie1981]

He's had alot of "fighters" come in with that attitude and been embarrased, while it may not be the best demo and has a querky side to it all do not mistake him or his style for some bs tai chi for hippies crap.

[lkfmdc]

He's had alot of "fighters" come in with that attitude and been embarrased, while it may not be the best demo and has a querky side to it all do not mistake him or his style for some bs tai chi for hippies crap.

wonder why you put "fighters" in quotation marks? Maybe because they weren't FIGHTERS?

Nothing in any of his clips would seem to indicate he is living in the real world and it seems the only people who don't see this are his students

[aussie1981]

Ah ok, Um 'Big Daddy' Luke Brown trained this style, alot of wrestlers and the like train it as it helps sensitivity and smoothes out movement. Why not post something on youtube yourself and show us all how it should be done.;)

[Violent Designs]

Ah ok, Um 'Big Daddy' Luke Brown trained this style, alot of wrestlers and the like train it as it helps sensitivity and smoothes out movement. Why not post something on youtube yourself and show us all how it should be done.;)

Pretty sure David Ross has enough clips on the internet.

[lkfmdc]

Ah ok, Um 'Big Daddy' Luke Brown trained this style,



well, if HE did your style :confused:
is he supposed to be someone the world knows? :confused:




Why not post something on youtube yourself and show us all how it should be done.;)



the 100 plus clips I have on my youtube channel aren't enough for you? :rolleyes:

Maybe the 16 sanshou national champions I trained
or the three world champions
or the MMA fighters
maybe they might convince you I know a little about what works in the real world :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Pretty sure David Ross has enough clips on the internet.

I just looked, I have put up 215 videos, nah, nothing for him to see there :p

[lkfmdc]

Things that work on the actual planet earth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeyGEgJN8Dc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmTEtIjExxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3WkuCCJ9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDBW6k3BTYA

[Frost]

I'm coming down with Aussie Dave on this one. And not for National reasons.

That guy is just training, demonstrating some light combinations, to extrapolate that into his full exercise of martial arts is not valid.

You can see there is internal stability and focus, core power if it makes you more comfortable, in his shoulder barge and elbows. It doesn't mean he can fight, but it says to me he can hit hard.

His faster strkes, well targeted and executed multiple strikes per breath. Fast enough to injure and distract for the finishing blow, I'm seeing skill.

lol what are you smoking, what you are seeing is a crappy let me bend over grab your legs and stand still to allow you to hit me demo, anyone with any wrestling skills knows this is a bad demo, a bad idea of a way to defend any kind of shot, and thus if his idea of how to defend a double leg is this cr*p, t does make you wonder about the rest of his system

he wont have any internal stability and focus (or core power) when he gets hit with a blast double and projected 10 feet beackwards onto his backside

A good shot finishes about 6 feet through and past your opponent ie you dont aim for his legs you aim through him to the floor behind him he just comes along for the ride, thus the very first thing you have to do is defend that shot...before you start hitting with internal focus:rolleyes:, anyone who teaches otherwise simply doesnt have a clue about grappling...and if they are THAT wrong about one aspect of training maes you wonder about the rest

[Frost]

He's had alot of "fighters" come in with that attitude and been embarrased, while it may not be the best demo and has a querky side to it all do not mistake him or his style for some bs tai chi for hippies crap.

its not about the demo, its the fact he is so fundermentally wrong about a key aspect of fighting, how to defend a shot it calls into question everything else he does

[Ozzy Dave]

lol what are you smoking, what you are seeing is a crappy let me bend over grab your legs and stand still to allow you to hit me demo, anyone with any wrestling skills knows this is a bad demo, a bad idea of a way to defend any kind of shot, and thus if his idea of how to defend a double leg is this cr*p, t does make you wonder about the rest of his system

he wont have any internal stability and focus (or core power) when he gets hit with a blast double and projected 10 feet beackwards onto his backside

A good shot finishes about 6 feet through and past your opponent ie you dont aim for his legs you aim through him to the floor behind him he just comes along for the ride, thus the very first thing you have to do is defend that shot...before you start hitting with internal focus:rolleyes:, anyone who teaches otherwise simply doesnt have a clue about grappling...and if they are THAT wrong about one aspect of training maes you wonder about the rest

Steady tiger, in all fairness to Yum Cha I believe that if you re-read the thread you'll find that his comments were made in relation to the clips at the start of the thread before it morphed into the "sledge a style and people you don't know anything about" fiasco it is now.

[Yum Cha]

Well F-me. I thought I was going crazy.... I looked at those demos again, and didn't see anything that had to do with Takedowns...

so, yea, what he said...

as you were...

I like Ross's stuff, its always top shelf, for what it is. Practical, proven, fair enough, but there are other ways. Other energies. More about choices to my mind, i.e. to pursue another trap or grap, or to strike.

How you choose to apply an advantage should be the most direct possible. This goes contrary to the JJ concept of establish control, establish position, execute submission.

Like with the crowbar, once you open it to insert the hand, you could strike straight through to the face, then still continue with the grip and knee attacks, it you needed to, or headbutt.

But to do that, you need the kind of strength and training to punch short and straight 'through traffic'. Same with all the MT headlock push-offs, a good shove works, but you can do a lot more with different energy, i.e. short/shock power, faat ging, internal, whatever, and as pointed out likewise in another video, you don't have to let them go. Good internal can pull in as well as push out. Shake your head like a 9month old baby...

In the first video links...

These guys are demoing that kind of power. Says nothing of how well they can fight, nor is it intended to, just how well they train that kind of delivery.

Nice to have both skills to draw upon. Works well.

[Yum Cha]

I know where he is going, but I don't get off at the same station.

The way he applies the sinking force with such a twitchy nature generates a lot more force than you expect, but I think that his demo is more about dealing with an awkward non trained fighter than a properly trained wrestler. you can't sink once someone is under your centre. Lots of ways to keep them out.

Combine what he is doing with effective sprawling and dragging, and you get more mileage.

Its just a little off hand demo, in its defence.

[faxiapreta]

The way he applies the sinking force with such a twitchy nature generates a lot more force than you expect, but I think that his demo is more about dealing with an awkward non trained fighter than a properly trained wrestler. .


Yeah, I mean, why train in a method that would work against both trained and untrained people when you can train in a method that only works against non-trained people?

[Snipsky]

Yeah, I mean, why train in a method that would work against both trained and untrained people when you can train in a method that only works against non-trained people?

Since all you talk about is the sports model, i guess you're saying that people shouldn't play basket ball, baseball, or football unless they are trying out for professional teams?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since all you talk about is the sports model, i guess you're saying that people shouldn't play basket ball, baseball, or football unless they are trying out for professional teams?

What he is TRYING to say is that there is no reason why amateurs can't use the some stuff that Pro's use and what works VS a pro will more likey work vs someone untrained.

[Yum Cha]

Yeah, I mean, why train in a method that would work against both trained and untrained people when you can train in a method that only works against non-trained people?

He probably is making a short demo based upon experience. His, not yours. Those are techniques for use by street muscle on drunks and trouble makers. Or if you overwhelm a guy and get him ducking...

People abuse the quote, "most fights go to the ground' thinking that someone is a wrestler, hardly... They go down because people fall over and hold on, or try stupid clinches...

You're obviously a BJJ boy, these old school guys haven't run across it, they're playing catch up, most never needed it. Big f-ing deal. Its not an instructional video, just a casual Q&A in the gym. You seem quite concerned.

[Frost]

He probably is making a short demo based upon experience. His, not yours. Those are techniques for use by street muscle on drunks and trouble makers. Or if you overwhelm a guy and get him ducking...

People abuse the quote, "most fights go to the ground' thinking that someone is a wrestler, hardly... They go down because people fall over and hold on, or try stupid clinches...

You're obviously a BJJ boy, these old school guys haven't run across it, they're playing catch up, most never needed it. Big f-ing deal. Its not an instructional video, just a casual Q&A in the gym. You seem quite concerned.

His experience is not enough in this instance why not just admit that, what is it with TCMA teachers that makes it so hard for them to say i dont know go elsewhere?

Was at a wrestling seminar this weekend the coach (a national level wrestler) taught a few submissions of the front head lock but then said this is not my area of experetise (im only a purple belt lol) if your teacher has a better way go with it....

If only tcma guys could be this honest

Because lets be honest he is teaching something he thinks will work as if its a good technique and doing his students an injustice, because the first time his student trys that on a half decent rugby player (let alone a wrestler) he WILL get hurt

[Frost]

Since all you talk about is the sports model, i guess you're saying that people shouldn't play basket ball, baseball, or football unless they are trying out for professional teams?

use some critical thinking please, i play footbal (soccer to you) im no where near my brothers level (he had trials) but guess what i use the same techniques and strategies, just not as refined or as quickly as he does, and thats the point, why learn something which only works on bad takedowns then be in trouble or need a different set of skills when you meant someone who can actually fight, why not simply do it right from the start

[Frost]

The thing about the video showing "real" takedowns, is EVERY SINGLE one of them using the leg the person doing the takedown smacks his knee on the mat while doing it. You don't do that while in the street and not injure yourself. Same thing in any other sport competition, the rings allow for that.

In almost 15 years of law enforcement, I have never come across a fight that someone used a wrestling takedown. The only exceptions to that were where both people were consenting to fight (ego fight) and kept escalating and they were on grass to do it. You see alot of pick ups and slams or bodylocks around the waist with a trip, or even a tackle around the waist, but not a low takedown like most wrestlers use in the video.

Competitive fighting takes a very high level skill and because of that you will see more basic techniques (high percentage moves). The greater the skill discrepancy, the more you can pull off a lower percentage move. For example, in one of his fights Rickson Gracie had someone do a low shoot on him. His defense was to roll OVER the person's back. If someone on here showed that same defense everyone would talk smack about how that would NEVER work and it was BS.

I know I can do different things with a drunk who throws a big telegraphed haymaker and over extends himself (which is most of the time in assaults) than someone who keeps a tight structure and doesn't do that. Everyone only looks at the 2nd type of opponent and then says that everything else is crap. You need to train both.

No in one of his fights in 1995 rickon got picked up, amazingly rode the lift spun out of it and landed on his feet, please get your facts right

As for the knee touching the floor on the double leg, guess what in wrestling you have to do this because of the low stance, in MMA and on the street you can hit a blast double ie penetrate without the knee ever touching the floor, because of the higher stances..and guess what the action on the takedown is exactly the same, back straight penetrate deeply between the legs with your closet leg and blast through your opponent, everything is the same you just don’t touch your knee down

Oh and no one smacks the knee down it rolls down as you lower your level and push your hip through, to be honest l have seen plenty of guys use this double on the shreet and in training without mats, as soon as someone says oh look the knee is smacking I know they have never grappled

[Frost]

Well F-me. I thought I was going crazy.... I looked at those demos again, and didn't see anything that had to do with Takedowns...

so, yea, what he said...

as you were...

I like Ross's stuff, its always top shelf, for what it is. Practical, proven, fair enough, but there are other ways. Other energies. More about choices to my mind, i.e. to pursue another trap or grap, or to strike.

How you choose to apply an advantage should be the most direct possible. This goes contrary to the JJ concept of establish control, establish position, execute submission.

Like with the crowbar, once you open it to insert the hand, you could strike straight through to the face, then still continue with the grip and knee attacks, it you needed to, or headbutt.

But to do that, you need the kind of strength and training to punch short and straight 'through traffic'. Same with all the MT headlock push-offs, a good shove works, but you can do a lot more with different energy, i.e. short/shock power, faat ging, internal, whatever, and as pointed out likewise in another video, you don't have to let them go. Good internal can pull in as well as push out. Shake your head like a 9month old baby...

In the first video links...

These guys are demoing that kind of power. Says nothing of how well they can fight, nor is it intended to, just how well they train that kind of delivery.

Nice to have both skills to draw upon. Works well.

Oh ok my bad everyone else was talking about that demo so thought you were too so I apologise

Ok ill revivew your comments in the light of those demos :o)

Nothing unique or internal about that striking, just the usual compliant work you see in a lot of styles which they never seem to show in actual combat wonder why that is …..what they are showing is a delivery in an unrealistic environment which then falls apart one contact is made and pressure applied, although of course since we have someone on this thread who practices this style maybe they could film a clip of it working in full sparring?

Sorry but I have got to laugh at the following “Same with all the MT headlock push-offs, a good shove works, but you can do a lot more with different energy, i.e. short/shock power” first its not a head lock, secondly pushing off is only one escape thai guys use, thirdly a lot of their escapes require shock power, which you should know if you trained thai boxing, but then you would also know that its not a head lock

Whilst im laughing at this ill also chuckle at the following if its ok “Good internal can pull in as well as push out. Shake your head like a 9month old baby...” again if you have trained the plum or clinch fighting at a good school you know this is standard for Thai boxing as well, they use shocking power with the forearms once the clinch is established to shake you up, as well as explosive power to pull you in and rag you around, they use whole body power to move you around so you are helpless to defend the knees, and they can also pull you in as effectively as they push you around………

Short shock power and full body power is used all the time in the clinch, wrestling and grappling in general :its used when you shoulder bump someone in order to either create space to punch/elbow or its used to shock their energy and momentum upwards so you can attack their legs, its used when you push/pull them with over unders in order to spin them off balance, its used when you have a single neck tie and opposite wrist control to pull them down in order to get a reaction out off them so as they pull back you can hit a blast double, or if you get no reaction you continue the pull and snap down to a front head lock (look listening skill is involved too)

The difference for me is that grapplers don’t talk about it or coat it in esoteric terms, they simply do it all the time against real opposition, oh and when they demo the skills it looks an awful lot like how they actually do it in a fight…still waiting for anyone to show the folding hitting in an actual fight………….

[KC Elbows]

I wish Frost would start inserting some snide into his comments. Just not enough snide.

[Frost]

I wish Frost would start inserting some snide into his comments. Just not enough snide.

Sorry if you don’t like the delivery, I get annoyed when people try to make out what they are seeing is something special or different, or that this or that style doesn’t have the special secret power but relies on strength and powering through when they strike, I also get annoyed when people think is ok to teach bad techniques because hey my student probably wont ever come across a good ….. so he will be ok, or when teachers are too big headed to simply say I don’t know………

Now do you have anything constructive to say about my comments…..perhaps you could drag the thread out of the mire I have pulled it into

[KC Elbows]

Sorry if you don’t like the delivery, I get annoyed when people try to make out what they are seeing is something special or different, or that this or that style doesn’t have the special secret power but relies on strength and powering through when they strike, I also get annoyed when people think is ok to teach bad techniques because hey my student probably wont ever come across a good ….. so he will be ok, or when teachers are too big headed to simply say I don’t know………

Now do you have anything constructive to say about my comments…..perhaps you could drag the thread out of the mire I have pulled it into

I wasn't complaining, just joking around. I, of course, am never snide.

I also dislike the approach that goes, "Teacher, how do I stop foreign technique A" and the teacher doesn't really research the best way their style could be used to do so, but simply uses some shallow analysis and starts teaching it.

The classes I run are 90% working with other people. One guy has trained bjj longer than he's trained with me, one does some judo, one with a karate background. The lion's share of class is resisting training trying to work techniques from the system, but I encourage a certain percentage of using whatever they know, including against me, so that we are all exposed to different ideas. When I find a technique from my system that helps me against something they commonly do, I share that, but often, finding that technique comes by way of seeing common overall responses to the same move from other styles, and realizing that the same general move is in my system. It's a balancing game: I'm teaching my system, it's what I'm qualified to teach, but to know it well, even for myself, we need to know how to use it against different fighting methods. The odds of two taixuquan fighters fighting is small, and only exists because, no matter how small a kung fu style is, lineage wars seem to occur.:D

[Frost]

I wasn't complaining, just joking around. I, of course, am never snide.

I also dislike the approach that goes, "Teacher, how do I stop foreign technique A" and the teacher doesn't really research the best way their style could be used to do so, but simply uses some shallow analysis and starts teaching it.

The classes I run are 90% working with other people. One guy has trained bjj longer than he's trained with me, one does some judo, one with a karate background. The lion's share of class is resisting training trying to work techniques from the system, but I encourage a certain percentage of using whatever they know, including against me, so that we are all exposed to different ideas. When I find a technique from my system that helps me against something they commonly do, I share that, but often, finding that technique comes by way of seeing common overall responses to the same move from other styles, and realizing that the same general move is in my system. It's a balancing game: I'm teaching my system, it's what I'm qualified to teach, but to know it well, even for myself, we need to know how to use it against different fighting methods. The odds of two taixuquan fighters fighting is small, and only exists because, no matter how small a kung fu style is, lineage wars seem to occur.:D

I know that’s how you train, we have chatted before and normally agree on things :o) after all what you do is just glorified wrestling

[KC Elbows]

I know that’s how you train, we have chatted before and normally agree on things :o) after all what you do is just glorified wrestling

Glorified wrestling was invented by the Chinese.

[faxiapreta]

Oh and no one smacks the knee down it rolls down as you lower your level and push your hip through, to be honest l have seen plenty of guys use this double on the shreet and in training without mats, as soon as someone says oh look the knee is smacking I know they have never grappled

Bingo! Although they usually claim to have years of experience.

[Northwind]

...snip...
If only tcma guys could be this honest
...snip...


And if only mma guys would quit putting all tcma guys into one lump generic barrel...This is something I tell my students fairly frequently. In Northern Shaolin/BSL, we have many entries, throws, body-manipulations, etc. that go only so far; when I get questions regarding things that border on grappling-specific - I, for one, don't make things up, or whatever it is some seem to think we do - I tell them if they really want that information, then they need to go to those who specialize in it.

And interestingly enough, most of the tcma folks I've met do the same thing....

[Yum Cha]

Oh ok my bad everyone else was talking about that demo so thought you were too so I apologise

Ok ill revivew your comments in the light of those demos :o)

Nothing unique or internal about that striking, just the usual compliant work you see in a lot of styles which they never seem to show in actual combat wonder why that is …..what they are showing is a delivery in an unrealistic environment which then falls apart one contact is made and pressure applied, although of course since we have someone on this thread who practices this style maybe they could film a clip of it working in full sparring?

Sorry but I have got to laugh at the following “Same with all the MT headlock push-offs, a good shove works, but you can do a lot more with different energy, i.e. short/shock power” first its not a head lock, secondly pushing off is only one escape thai guys use, thirdly a lot of their escapes require shock power, which you should know if you trained thai boxing, but then you would also know that its not a head lock

Whilst im laughing at this ill also chuckle at the following if its ok “Good internal can pull in as well as push out. Shake your head like a 9month old baby...” again if you have trained the plum or clinch fighting at a good school you know this is standard for Thai boxing as well, they use shocking power with the forearms once the clinch is established to shake you up, as well as explosive power to pull you in and rag you around, they use whole body power to move you around so you are helpless to defend the knees, and they can also pull you in as effectively as they push you around………

Short shock power and full body power is used all the time in the clinch, wrestling and grappling in general :its used when you shoulder bump someone in order to either create space to punch/elbow or its used to shock their energy and momentum upwards so you can attack their legs, its used when you push/pull them with over unders in order to spin them off balance, its used when you have a single neck tie and opposite wrist control to pull them down in order to get a reaction out off them so as they pull back you can hit a blast double, or if you get no reaction you continue the pull and snap down to a front head lock (look listening skill is involved too)

The difference for me is that grapplers don’t talk about it or coat it in esoteric terms, they simply do it all the time against real opposition, oh and when they demo the skills it looks an awful lot like how they actually do it in a fight…still waiting for anyone to show the folding hitting in an actual fight………….

Goodness, feeling feisty today...

Ok, so the 'plum' I knew that, the word just failed me.

And what you did was basically agree with me, and demonstrate its not a unique concept to use this twitchy, shocky kind of grappling.

My point is simply that some people are better at it than others. And while they may generally be strikers, we can apply it wrestling, trapping, grappling, as well, if we train it.

Now, the fact you don't see the power base and structural differences in their exercises, say 25 to 40 seconds in the first video, the two man exercise, suggests you are either unimpressed or uninformed.

If you are unimpressed, I I'm just saying its an example, it demonstrates the power, regardless of fighting skill, they have exceptionally good coordination and focus. I would believe that they can hit hard when called for.

If you are uninformed, then look at the way the complete focus of the movement coordinates into each power move. The fiddly stuff is just training flotsam and jetsam, but the power moves show the coordination, balance and focus.

Now, this kind of power and technique falls apart if its not mobile, and that's where a lot of sport guys take advantage, but it is good for a knife fight in a telephone booth. Learn mobility and its a lot more applicable.

I think we could agree, if you grab that guy by the shirt and he feeds you one of those elbows, he wins?

[Frost]

And if only mma guys would quit putting all tcma guys into one lump generic barrel...This is something I tell my students fairly frequently. In Northern Shaolin/BSL, we have many entries, throws, body-manipulations, etc. that go only so far; when I get questions regarding things that border on grappling-specific - I, for one, don't make things up, or whatever it is some seem to think we do - I tell them if they really want that information, then they need to go to those who specialize in it.

And interestingly enough, most of the tcma folks I've met do the same thing....

its nice you say that, however the expereince on this board and the clips posted are somewhat different we can only go by the evidence we see, william cheungs clips against takedowns that were posted a while ago were laughable, as were these, i have yet to see one posted out side some of the chinese wrestling clips and the sanda clips thats any good, yet how often do we hear people say wait i dont know i suggest you go elsewhere to learn what you are asking...........

[Northwind]

its nice you say that, however the expereince on this board and the clips posted are somewhat different we can only go by the evidence we see, william cheungs clips against takedowns that were posted a while ago were laughable, as were these, i have yet to see one posted out side some of the chinese wrestling clips and the sanda clips thats any good, yet how often do we hear people say wait i dont know i suggest you go elsewhere to learn what you are asking...........

Yeah you may be right in that regard. I mean we have people on both sides of the fence that get crazy with "claims" etc. from time to time. I dunno. I guess since I am a tcma guy, I initially jump to protect.

It may be the same if we put forth a scenario wherein the mma practitioner asks his teacher/coach/(what do they call them? I honestly don't know) what to do in a situation wherein tma may have a decent answer and yet they are not pointed in that direction as well.

I guess it boils down to ego/whatever you want to call the "I", not wanting to admit not having an answer - regardless of camp. In either situation it's not good.

[Frost]

Yeah you may be right in that regard. I mean we have people on both sides of the fence that get crazy with "claims" etc. from time to time. I dunno. I guess since I am a tcma guy, I initially jump to protect.

It may be the same if we put forth a scenario wherein the mma practitioner asks his teacher/coach/(what do they call them? I honestly don't know) what to do in a situation wherein tma may have a decent answer and yet they are not pointed in that direction as well.

I guess it boils down to ego/whatever you want to call the "I", not wanting to admit not having an answer - regardless of camp. In either situation it's not good.

ive had 2 main tcma teachers, who tried to come up with ways to deal with attacks he didnt know about....the other sent me on a wrestling seminar and ive never looked back, so i agree there are good tcma guys, its juat seems all the clips posted are from the bad ones trying to look like they know more than they do, maybe the good ones dont care

[Frost]

Goodness, feeling feisty today...

Ok, so the 'plum' I knew that, the word just failed me.

And what you did was basically agree with me, and demonstrate its not a unique concept to use this twitchy, shocky kind of grappling.

My point is simply that some people are better at it than others. And while they may generally be strikers, we can apply it wrestling, trapping, grappling, as well, if we train it.

Now, the fact you don't see the power base and structural differences in their exercises, say 25 to 40 seconds in the first video, the two man exercise, suggests you are either unimpressed or uninformed.

If you are unimpressed, I I'm just saying its an example, it demonstrates the power, regardless of fighting skill, they have exceptionally good coordination and focus. I would believe that they can hit hard when called for.

If you are uninformed, then look at the way the complete focus of the movement coordinates into each power move. The fiddly stuff is just training flotsam and jetsam, but the power moves show the coordination, balance and focus.

Now, this kind of power and technique falls apart if its not mobile, and that's where a lot of sport guys take advantage, but it is good for a knife fight in a telephone booth. Learn mobility and its a lot more applicable.

I think we could agree, if you grab that guy by the shirt and he feeds you one of those elbows, he wins?

looked again and still not impressed, its the same kind of whole body power i did when doing tai chi, southern arts etc, its like the one inch demos of breaking it looks good but show me you doing it against a moving target thats hitting back, because his structure: no guarding hand, hands down typically winding up for the strikes (even if its just loading the hips in the opposite direction) is just asking to get put on him backside. I also really doubt he can stay that relaxed and focused (which is needed for that kind of power) when his opponent is hitting back, even if we were in a telephone booth.

Its not just about learning to be mobile with it its also about learning to do it under pressure and i cant see any demos of him doing that, and the way he stands and loads doesnt fill me with confidence that he has ever pressur tested what he is doing

if i gab him and he feeds me an elbow it will probably hurt, will he be able to do it if im snapping him around using shocking power and whole body power.....i doubt it :)

[Northwind]

...maybe the good ones dont care
It's awesome to hear that you actually had "some" good experience with tcma guys tho.
I think this is key on both camps...We get pulled in and get addicted to this cr@p. It's fun yet annoying yet fun yet informative yet...etc...Some of the "stronger" ones you won't find typing this stuff out tho - the grapplers, the mixed-bag, the traditionalists.

You mainly see those here in the camps that are 25-75%. On the rare numbers, we are blessed with those that have BTDT. And though we may disagree, we still have respect.

The old kung fu man saying ahh we got it all, to the mixed bag going I can handle it all to the grappler who says we bring it all on down...

Nobody wants to say they are wrong and yet...That seems to be where most learning happens.

It's one thing to say that there is this whole other body of knowledge out there that I can learn, yet I choose not to, simply because I have no interest or it does not apply, and another to say - I don't care what it is, mines better and humph! :P

[Frost]

It's awesome to hear that you actually had "some" good experience with tcma guys tho.
I think this is key on both camps...We get pulled in and get addicted to this cr@p. It's fun yet annoying yet fun yet informative yet...etc...Some of the "stronger" ones you won't find typing this stuff out tho - the grapplers, the mixed-bag, the traditionalists.

You mainly see those here in the camps that are 25-75%. On the rare numbers, we are blessed with those that have BTDT. And though we may disagree, we still have respect.

The old kung fu man saying ahh we got it all, to the mixed bag going I can handle it all to the grappler who says we bring it all on down...

Nobody wants to say they are wrong and yet...That seems to be where most learning happens.

It's one thing to say that there is this whole other body of knowledge out there that I can learn, yet I choose not to, simply because I have no interest or it does not apply, and another to say - I don't care what it is, mines better and humph! :P

I have no problem with a lot of TCMA< my first master taught full contact fighters in the UK for decades, My CLF and yung ying coach who took me to the grappling seminar also took up judo and submission wresting in his 50's, would love to go train with him again but as you grow older your free time gets less

It probably why i am so hardon somethings, thers attitude rubbed off on me

[Northwind]

I have no problem with a lot of TCMA< my first master taught full contact fighters in the UK for decades, My CLF and yung ying coach who took me to the grappling seminar also took up judo and submission wresting in his 50's, would love to go train with him again but as you grow older your free time gets less

It probably why i am so hardon somethings, thers attitude rubbed off on me

I hear ya. Sounds like we agree on some stuff then :) Btw tho...do you mean lung ying (as in s. dragon shape style) or is there a yung ying I never heard of? Not being an @$$ here - an honest question. Tough to tell "attitude" online, now that I think about it.

[Frost]

I hear ya. Sounds like we agree on some stuff then :) Btw tho...do you mean lung ying (as in s. dragon shape style) or is there a yung ying I never heard of? Not being an @$$ here - an honest question. Tough to tell "attitude" online, now that I think about it.

lol i could never spell that put it down to dylexia, he taught lung ying and bak mei (now i know i spelt that right) as well as CLF :)

[Northwind]

lol i could never spell that put it down to dylexia, he taught lung ying and bak mei (now i know i spelt that right) as well as CLF :)
Cool. I have a buddy down here in Atl., who is a member on the forums but almost never shows up (hoping this will call him out) who has had experience in that same triage. I know jack about any of em but have much respect for hakka hands, from the bits I've picked up here and there.

Have you noticed that these 3 tend to go together, or is it just coincidence? I ask, as I haven't seen such a cohesive coincidence in northern styles, personally. I can understand where they should logically show up, but just have not experienced it yet.

[Frost]

Cool. I have a buddy down here in Atl., who is a member on the forums but almost never shows up (hoping this will call him out) who has had experience in that same triage. I know jack about any of em but have much respect for hakka hands, from the bits I've picked up here and there.

Have you noticed that these 3 tend to go together, or is it just coincidence? I ask, as I haven't seen such a cohesive coincidence in northern styles, personally. I can understand where they should logically show up, but just have not experienced it yet.

The guy I trained with (for not than long mind you) taught a village art which combined CLF, and old frame hung gar (this was his masters main family style) once you were advanced enough he would teach the hakka arts as well (I mainly learned CLF and hung gar from him, with some hakka stuff, but my other master taught a family hakka art which I trained in for about a decade so a lot of it was familiar)

Bak mei and dragon have I think always been taught together in certain areas, CLC and the founder of dragon were cousins who opened schools together and shared the same base hakka art so they go together well. AS for the CLF element, well I always liked swinging punches and found they mixed well with the close range stuff I did, of course the energies were different, CLF was more whipping, wider stances circular, whilst dragon was move folding at the waist, sinking and raising (bak mei was more twitchy for me….but I was really a beginner in those styles, but as I said I had a decade in another hakka family art) Looking back I was an MMA guy back then just didn’t realise it.

These days I am more inclined to Thai box and wrestle than anything else, although it does surprise people when you angle off and start throwing wider hooks and uppercuts, or you start slamming in hammer fists in the clinch…and I was just thinking how the forward leaning lower dragon stance is so much like the wrestling position I am taught its not funny

[Kevin73]

No in one of his fights in 1995 rickon got picked up, amazingly rode the lift spun out of it and landed on his feet, please get your facts rightAs for the knee touching the floor on the double leg, guess what in wrestling you have to do this because of the low stance, in MMA and on the street you can hit a blast double ie penetrate without the knee ever touching the floor, because of the higher stances..and guess what the action on the takedown is exactly the same, back straight penetrate deeply between the legs with your closet leg and blast through your opponent, everything is the same you just don’t touch your knee down

Oh and no one smacks the knee down it rolls down as you lower your level and push your hip through, to be honest l have seen plenty of guys use this double on the shreet and in training without mats, as soon as someone says oh look the knee is smacking I know they have never grappled

I know the fight you are talking about, here is a small clip of it at 6:24. The fight I am referencing was a very low takedown attempt and he rolled over the guy. Two different fights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTdk7Id3Rhc&feature=fvst

"No one smacks the knee", my experience is different. The school I went to won state my senior year and I was friends with alot of the guys on the team. The ones that liked to get into fights on more than one occassion complained about their knees because they occasionally smacked down in the fight. Does it happen all the time? No, but it is common. Also, related to the guy I knew who smacked it on the terazzo (sp?) floor and broke his kneecap. Things happen, just as a person punching to the head might break their hand because it lands wrong. Doesn't mean it happens everytime, but happens enough that you need to be aware of it.

[faxiapreta]

"No one smacks the knee", my experience is different. The school I went to won state my senior year and I was friends with alot of the guys on the team. The ones that liked to get into fights on more than one occassion complained about their knees because they occasionally smacked down in the fight. Does it happen all the time? No, but it is common. Also, related to the guy I knew who smacked it on the terazzo (sp?) floor and broke his kneecap. Things happen, just as a person punching to the head might break their hand because it lands wrong. Doesn't mean it happens everytime, but happens enough that you need to be aware of it.

Your knees also get scraped up when you are mounted. Doesn't make that a non-viable position.

Any time you get in a physical altercation on the street some things are going to get banged up.



I know the fight you are talking about, here is a small clip of it at 6:24. The fight I am referencing was a very low takedown attempt and he rolled over the guy. Two different fights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTdk7Id3Rhc&feature=fvst

LOL.... that's what happens when you get some guy who knows nothing about grappling trying to explain what he thinks is going on.

That wasn't a "counter" to the takedown. That was Rickson applying a guillotine and his opponent lifting Rickson up and over to relieve the pressure on the neck.

The "countering" going on in the "lift and flip" was that being done by the opponent to Rickson, not the other way around.

You won't see Rickson demonstrating that as a takedown counter. What you might see him doing is demonstrating that as a mistake he made in applying the guillotine too soon, thus allowing his opponent to lift him up and over.

[Kevin73]

LOL.... that's what happens when you get some guy who knows nothing about grappling trying to explain what he thinks is going on.

That wasn't a "counter" to the takedown. That was Rickson applying a guillotine and his opponent lifting Rickson up and over to relieve the pressure on the neck.

The "countering" going on in the "lift and flip" was that being done by the opponent to Rickson, not the other way around.

You won't see Rickson demonstrating that as a takedown counter. What you might see him doing is demonstrating that as a mistake he made in applying the guillotine too soon, thus allowing his opponent to lift him up and over.

Uhhhh, what? Never said what was shown in that video was a takedown counter. I watched a fight of Rickson where a guy shot in low and Rickson literally rolled over the guys back while he was hands and knees on the ground due to missing his takedown attempt.

Frost then claimed that I was getting "my facts" wrong and then pointed to another fight altogether (the one you just gave a breakdown for). I only showed that fight to show that I know what he was talking about and it wasn't the same one.

[faxiapreta]

Uhhhh, what? Never said what was shown in that video was a takedown counter. I watched a fight of Rickson where a guy shot in low and Rickson literally rolled over the guys back while he was hands and knees on the ground due to missing his takedown attempt.

Frost then claimed that I was getting "my facts" wrong and then pointed to another fight altogether (the one you just gave a breakdown for). I only showed that fight to show that I know what he was talking about and it wasn't the same one.

OK, show the link to the first fight you were referencing.

[Frost]

OK, show the link to the first fight you were referencing.

yep id like to see it too, ive seen most of his stuff and never seen what you are referencing, so id appreciate it to