stance and preheaven bagua

[Razaunida]

Preheaven bagua is the foundation

Postheaven is the application.


Preheaven comes inside to out

Postheaves comes outside to in



How do you apply the two trigrams to your kung fu practice? This is profound and yet is the basis for most kung fu systems if they have numerology in them related to Daoism. Everyone has 108 this, 36 that, 8 stances, yet few know why? Did they think it was magic? No there is a reason. How do you apply this to change in combat?

Responses like "Don't matter" just mean "I am neandratol who never learned it."

[hskwarrior]

Are you still drunk? just askin

[Razaunida]

not yet, but if there is any topic that can draw all Chinese martial arts into a common discussion this is it. This is the root, this the foundation, this is the heart of Chinese culture and its everything. I hope it generates some serious discussion about Chinese martial arts if anyone on this forum does that sort of thing.

[David Jamieson]

Adding cosmology to fighting tactics does little for the fighting tactics and less for the understanding of cosmology.

[Razaunida]

David:

Responses like "Don't matter" just mean "I am neandratol who never learned it."

[taai gihk yahn]

Are you still drunk? just askin
it IS hard to tell the difference w him, right?


The 2 trigrams you speak of are not called "Preheaven" and "Postheaven," they are merely associated with those two ideas - Chinese Metaphysics is syncretic and inclusionist, so the ideas were fused together along with Yinyang, Qi and such.

Moreover, which trigrams are considered preheaven and postheaven depends on which sequence is being followed - the older sequence of Fu Xi (often called a "preheaven" sequence in and of itself) or the newer sequence King Wen (often called a "postheaven" sequence.)

Which are you referring to?

please, PLEASE do not attempt to engage him in intelligent dialogue - it will cause his head to explode and get cortex all over his keyboard, which will make it messy for the next user

[Razaunida]

it IS hard to tell the difference w him, right?



please, PLEASE do not attempt to engage him in intelligent dialogue - it will cause his head to explode and get cortex all over his keyboard, which will make it messy for the next user

I see as usual you have nothing to contribute. This is that Chinese stuff you seem to think so little of....quick..talk about biomechanics...that way you will be wrong, but at least you can think that you have been clever.

[Razaunida]

Okay savages, I'll make this simple.

This is the root of Chinese culture and YOUR kung fu. If you don't have any idea what is going on that is okay, you may learn something.

[David Jamieson]

David:

Responses like "Don't matter" just mean "I am neandratol who never learned it."

Raz: Not understanding what I just wrote there is indicative of your own not getting it.

What are you looking for anyway? Validation? Confirmation? Of what?
Or is it just a place to vent bold statements of beliefs you cling to and those who counter that become a focal point of what you despise and ridicule?

Cryptic and highly allegorical cosmological references to fighting tactics, strategies and training methods doesn't cut it. Especially not in the realm of pugilism, which if anything is not properly delivered in that particular modality anymore.

Also, it's Neanderthal. :)

[Razaunida]

I get it, you don't know....next?

[David Jamieson]

I get it, you don't know....next?

right back atcha. :)

[Razaunida]

lol, I wonder if you realize that "Savage" is a compliment to a Daoist.

Happily ignorant is Jerry Springer good viewing.

[taai gihk yahn]

I see as usual you have nothing to contribute. This is that Chinese stuff you seem to think so little of....quick..talk about biomechanics...that way you will be wrong, but at least you can think that you have been clever.

no no no: "you're stupid because I say so" is just boring; really, PLEASE come up with something more interesting; we're all rootin' fer ya!

[Razaunida]

The first worthwhile topic on KFO descends to this. Does anyone here know anything? I t seems not. Maybe you can go on a tour of a Daoist temple in China...and instead of taking pictures ask a question....maybe someone will tell you.

You have to know the right questions to ask and work hard. But....its easier to pretend that you know everything..and that is all you ever get.

[taai gihk yahn]

I see as usual you have nothing to contribute. This is that Chinese stuff you seem to think so little of....quick..talk about biomechanics...that way you will be wrong, but at least you can think that you have been clever.


Wow, did you use google translate to come up with that or something?

EDIT: Why do I get the feeling that you're the pizzed off alter ego of foiling fist.

his "style" (if one reaches to use that word) are reminiscent of someone who used to post here, who was banned many moons ago; could be the weed grows anew;

but why, WHY can't he come up with anything good material-wise?

[bawang]

the patient hunter catches the prey

[Razaunida]

ever notice that everything in YOUR system has to do with Daoist numerology.

Ever wonder why? Oh...you think its superstition of dark savage people? Oh...how cute.

Okay, you can think that. Think that while your friends pick fleas out of your back hair.

[hskwarrior]

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your back hairs.

[taai gihk yahn]

lol, I wonder if you realize that "Savage" is a compliment to a Daoist.

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/bunch-of-savages-in-this-town-93881.jpg?1190662126

[hskwarrior]

stop following me wierdo

[Razaunida]

The first worthwhile topic on KFO descends to this. Does anyone here know anything? I t seems not. Maybe you can go on a tour of a Daoist temple in China...and instead of taking pictures ask a question....maybe someone will tell you.

You have to know the right questions to ask and work hard. But....its easier to pretend that you know everything..and that is all you ever get.



This is the topic, try to stay on it. On your other threads you can talk about how Chinese high block is superior to Japanese high block and kung fu vs. mma. This is a real topic for real Chinese Martial Artists, please don't pollute this board and try to respectfully stay on topic.

[Dragonzbane76]

Who's the egotistical idiot? :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm very disappointed that no one has commented on my semi-obscure cultural reference...

[lkfmdc]

The topic is

Why is razaunida such a bone head and why can't he put together a decent troll? And why is his anus seeping Brian Gray's seed?

[Dragonzbane76]

clerks? what kind of comment are you looking for? ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

And why is his anus seeping Brian Gray's seed?

wow a very disgusting mental image...:)

[Razaunida]

This is the topic, try to stay on it. On your other threads you can talk about how Chinese high block is superior to Japanese high block and kung fu vs. mma. This is a real topic for real Chinese Martial Artists, please don't pollute this board and try to respectfully stay on topic.

Again, this is the topic. how can you do qi gong with so little focus?

[lkfmdc]

real discussion, why did razaunida's mom play basket ball with him as a kid and use him as the ball....

[taai gihk yahn]

real discussion, why did razaunida's mom play basket ball with him as a kid and use him as the ball....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RVLfSMIB7K0/SwKNIOERO0I/AAAAAAAAbu8/aygbHFRRM-s/s1600/WalmartBaby.bmp

[taai gihk yahn]

clerks? what kind of comment are you looking for? ;)

acknowledgement; a little validation maybe; is that SO MUCH to ask?!?

[Dragonzbane76]

acknowledgement; a little validation maybe; is that SO MUCH to ask?!?

I acknowledged, a slight tip of my head in consideration of your cult classic pick. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

I acknowledged, a slight tip of my head in consideration of your cult classic pick. :)

I really just want people to like me, is all...:(

[David Jamieson]

Anybody else think this pretentious little whelp is just another manifestation of HW108? Sure reads like his papsmear nonsense anyway. lol

"I'm an authority!" lol...awesome.

[RenDaHai]

Can I just chime in to say that 'Pre-Heaven' is a very bad translation. That means nothing in english and is very misleading.

THe term 'XianTian' is literally the character 'before' and 'heaven' put together, but means something completely different. Straight translations rarely work.

XianTian refers to the time before you are born and are still in the womb. At this point your mind is unpolluted by the illusion of the world. At this time your potencial is at its maximum. Xin and Yi are together.

In Taoist kung fu the goal is to return to this state of maximum potencial, to bring Xin and Yi together, to return in a sense to the prenatal state. To understand your INSTINCTS. To rid yourslef of preconceptions and illusion.

There is no translation for Xian tian. but 'Prenatal' would be close. Preheaven means nothing in english and I just hate to see it.

[Water-quan]

Preheaven bagua is the foundation

Postheaven is the application.


Preheaven comes inside to out

Postheaves comes outside to in



How do you apply the two trigrams to your kung fu practice? This is profound and yet is the basis for most kung fu systems if they have numerology in them related to Daoism. Everyone has 108 this, 36 that, 8 stances, yet few know why? Did they think it was magic? No there is a reason. How do you apply this to change in combat?

Responses like "Don't matter" just mean "I am neandratol who never learned it."


Thanks - I'm fascinated by these types of questions, where, to prove oneself smart, or truly knowledgeable, one has to either confirm your 'knowledge' by agreeing with it (or by chance guessing at the same meaning that you also hold), or confirm - in you mind - that they don't also have 'superior knowledge' by admitting they don't also 'know' it. It's such a clever little trick to play on oneself - no matter what anyone responds to it, you come out as in the know.

In truth, even if you do have some superior, little known knowledge, all you're doing is using it to try and make others look stupid in your own mind, to yourself, in comparison to you.

OH and PS - go on, DO show me your video of you doing martial arts. Do... do.....

[SPJ]

1. pre and post (shaping/forming)

Pre: foundation drills to shape up the basic skills

post: application oriented practices

just categorization, no thing mystical or profound.

2. Pre 8 gua is another categorization, can be directional, related to internal organs (lung, liver---), power categorization (where power produced, transfered and expressed)--

you may also use 5 elements classifications

post 8 gua is grouping your applications or related to limbs and body parts (elbow, fist, knee---)

nothing better or worse

just binominal groups or octo digrams categorizations

---

[David Jamieson]

can I just say that all this pseudo-scientific, occult, cerebral, cryptic bull**** has no place in fighting arts instruction and IS the singular reason why many people who can actually dance think that these versions of martial arts are total shyte.

And, they are, because the arts in general cannot seem to front a fighter of any merit, cannot put an end to any argument about training values etc etc and in the meantime... thousand of people with listless stares wave their arms around like lost people fighting ghosts in the air and never once getting hit upside the head with any real force that would smack some sense into their stupid and dull faces.

This kind of nonsense talk is what you do when you're old and looking back on things as you sip tea and smoke ganja from a hooka.

there is no place for crap like this in training people to fight. period.

[RenDaHai]

can I just say that all this pseudo-scientific, occult, cerebral, cryptic bull**** has no place in fighting arts instruction and IS the singular reason why many people who can actually dance think that these versions of martial arts are total shyte.

And, they are, because the arts in general cannot seem to front a fighter of any merit, cannot put an end to any argument about training values etc etc and in the meantime... thousand of people with listless stares wave their arms around like lost people fighting ghosts in the air and never once getting hit upside the head with any real force that would smack some sense into their stupid and dull faces.

This kind of nonsense talk is what you do when you're old and looking back on things as you sip tea and smoke ganja from a hooka.

there is no place for crap like this in training people to fight. period.

The philosophy of XianTian has nothing to do with Martial arts, its part of a meditative concept. The 'Xin' and 'Yi' of this Kung Fu is relatable to the Conscious and Unconscious mind of Jungian Psychoanalysis. Its interesting stuff philosophically and is a major part of Wudang and Shaolin, but has little to do with the combat skills.

Although I confess I have no idea what that Raza is on about, I'm just talking about the concept of XianTian Gong Fu (gong fu used in chinese sense not western). And the translation of the word.

[Scott R. Brown]

While I agree that mumbo jumbo has no place in fighting, it is not quite correct to say that philosophical principles do not have a place.

Some Samurai, the Yagyu to be specific, and a few other noted historically known Samurai, found the principles of Zen to be very beneficial in developing a high level of skill.

Zen allowed them to get beyond conceptual thought and spontaneously respond to phenomena.

One noted Zen Master named Sho-ju even defeated a group of Samurai Masters all attacking him at once. When asked how he could accomplish such a feat with no sword training, he stated, "If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!"

[Hendrik]

While I agree that mumbo jumbo has no place in fighting, it is not quite correct to say that philosophical principles do not have a place.

Some Samurai, the Yagyu to be specific, and a few other noted historically known Samurai, found the principles of Zen to be very beneficial in developing a high level of skill.

Zen allowed them to get beyond conceptual thought and spontaneously respond to phenomena.

One noted Zen Master named Sho-ju even defeated a group of Samurai Masters all attacking him at once. When asked how he could accomplish such a feat with no sword training, he stated, "If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!"



Do you really believe those Zen myth?

I dont believe those as it was told.

I love to be convinced but
the principles of Zen to be very beneficial in developing a high level of skill.
needs to be cleary define what is it one develop.

"If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!" how to get to this state? or it is just a saying.


These Zen stuffs is 1000000000000X even more distance then Qi....

[Scott R. Brown]

Do you really believe those Zen myth?

I dont believe those as it was told.

I love to be convinced but
the principles of Zen to be very beneficial in developing a high level of skill.
needs to be cleary define what is it one develop.

"If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!" how to get to this state? or it is just a saying.


These Zen stuffs is 1000000000000X even more distance then Qi....

That is because you are still a novice!

However, I would not expect, or even want, anyone to believe anything they cannot do for their self. You do not believe, and that is okay, because you have no experience that comes close to these kinds of stories. I have had these experiences, more than once, in many different circumstances. Not just within the martial arts.

Also, there is nothing magical about it. It is nothing special when you can do it. It is something along the lines of a novice basketball player looking on in amazement at the skills of Michael Jordan, while to Michael Jordan, they are just second nature.

Also, these abilities are more of a side effect of Zen training and not really something one should "TRY" to accomplish. These are things that happen, "of themselves" spontaneously! :)

[YouKnowWho]

found the principles of Zen to be very beneficial in developing a high level of skill.
When I trained my marathon, I notices that many marathon runners went to Japan to train Zen. When you run the 1st 16 miles, it's all about "physical". When you run the rest of 8 miles, it's all about "mental".

[Hendrik]

That is because you are still a novice!

However, I would not expect, or even want, anyone to believe anything they cannot do for their self. You do not believe, and that is okay, because you have no experience that comes close to these kinds of stories. I have had these experiences, more than once, in many different circumstances. Not just within the martial arts.

Also, there is nothing magical about it. It is nothing special when you can do it. It is something along the lines of a novice basketball player looking on in amazement at the skills of Michael Jordan, while to Michael Jordan, they are just second nature.

Also, these abilities are more of a side effect of Zen training and not really something one should "TRY" to accomplish. These are things that happen, "of themselves" spontaneously! :)


I dont buy these totally.

As I told you before, even Samadhi or alter state has different level.
All these Zen stuffs as the story told above are just "blind believe".

EVen in the Shurangama sutra, the 52 states of alter state attainment is laying out clearly.
what happen and what could be extected when one reaches each state. even the buddha has to do it that way. instead of " oh, i am a buddha, you dont know." It is a causal system world with cause and effect. even the buddha has to follow, no exception.

http://www.amazon.com/Shurangama-Sutra-Fifty-Skandha-Demon-States/dp/0881394017#reader_0881394017

So, again, all these ZEN and Samurai stuffs are fairy tale out of no where.




See, Qi and medirian's are tangible practice in TCM disregards of how one likes to called it biomechanics, bioelectric......etc.



However, these Zen story are just totally out of the reality. not to mention even the Buddha himself has to explain things clearly instead of all the jump to conclusion.


it is very interesting to see you opposing Qi in one way based on physical and accepting Zen unconditionally totally ignore physical.
if you have experience on Zen then share with us what it is and how is it useful for daily living. not to mention, so out of the 52 states of Shurangama sutra, which state have you attained?

Dont give me the Zen... Silence.....etc, which of the 52 States?

if your really knows the non dual and being there, instead of taking "sleeping" and enligtement and silence , then you could go to the first few of the 52 states and scan for the Qi or energy or chakra layers. can you do that?

if you cant. According to the Shurangama sutra which is the core of Chan or Zen practice or China you have broken the precept of lying. meaning falsely claim your attainment which you have never attained.

[Hendrik]

When I trained my marathon, I notices that many marathon runners went to Japan to train Zen. When you run the 1st 16 miles, it's all about "physical". When you run the rest of 8 miles, it's all about "mental".


I dont buy those at all. how can one seperate physical and mental?

in your previous post, your hold on to there is no internal art. Now, you switch totally and take these ZEN myth as real.

[YouKnowWho]

I dont buy those at all. how can one seperate physical and mental?

in your previous post, your hold on to there is no internal art. Now, you switch totally and take these ZEN myth as real.

After you have run 16 miles, your body are so tired. If you try to think about anything besides your body, you can take your mind away from your physical pain. When I get tired in my running, I start to count every 4 steps as 1. When I reach my count to 1,000, I'm already 2 miles away.

This concept is so simple that when you make love to your love one, if you can put your mind somewhere else, you can make your love one to have multiple orgasms without even realized.

This is just "mind over body". It has nothing to do with "internal".

[Hendrik]

After you have run 16 miles, your body are so tired. If you try to think about anything besides your body, you can take your mind away from your physical pain. When I get tired in my running, I start to count every 4 steps as 1. When I reach my count to 1,000, I'm already 2 miles away.

This concept is so simple that when you make love to your love one, if you can put your mind somewhere else, you can make your love one to have multiple orgasms without even realized.

This is just "mind over body". It has nothing to do with "internal".


you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

[Scott R. Brown]

I dont buy these totally.

As I told you before, even Samadhi or alter state has different level.
All these Zen stuffs as the story told above are just "blind believe".

EVen in the Shurangama sutra, the 52 states of alter state attainment is laying out clearly.
what happen and what could be extected when one reaches each state. even the buddha has to do it that way. instead of " oh, i am a buddha, you dont know." It is a causal system world with cause and effect. even the buddha has to follow, no exception.

http://www.amazon.com/Shurangama-Sutra-Fifty-Skandha-Demon-States/dp/0881394017#reader_0881394017

So, again, all these ZEN and Samurai stuffs are fairy tale out of no where.




See, Qi and medirian's are tangible practice in TCM disregards of how one likes to called it biomechanics, bioelectric......etc.



However, these Zen story are just totally out of the reality. not to mention even the Buddha himself has to explain things clearly instead of all the jump to conclusion.


it is very interesting to see you opposing Qi in one way based on physical and accepting Zen unconditionally totally ignore physical.
if you have experience on Zen then share with us what it is and how is it useful for daily living. not to mention, so out of the 52 states of Shurangama sutra, which state have you attained?

Dont give me the Zen... Silence.....etc, which of the 52 States?

if your really knows the non dual and being there, instead of taking "sleeping" and enligtement and silence , then you could go to the first few of the 52 states and scan for the Qi or energy or chakra layers. can you do that?

You are WAY over complicating a very simple ability. If you can't do it you don't know anything about it other than what you have read. I have done it many times probably hundreds of times in the past 30-40 years so it is no big deal to me.

It has got nothing to do with samadhi or 52 stages of mud used to cloud your mind. When you over complicate it with opinions and theories and what Buddha said, you lose it.

But if you are not interested in learning it or developing it, that is your choice. I know it is possible because I do it all the time.

To be clear, not like Shoju, but in a minor ways, on random occasions, in daily life AND in martial arts training.

My experiences give me confidence. Since you either have not had the experience, or have not recognized it when you have had it, you lack the confidence I have!

And that is not meant to be a criticism, just a simple statement of fact!

[Scott R. Brown]

you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

Once again, you are commenting upon something you have no direct experience with. Your mind can push your body beyond the wall. This is not only anecdotally experienced with marathoners, but other athletes. Once again I have done this a number of times in my life. The mind controls the body. At a certain point, it is true, the mind cannot push the body any further, but there is no way to know just where that specific point is for any particular person at any particular time until it occurs.

[YouKnowWho]

you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

How long can you hold your horse stance? If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes. Will your body shut down after 5 minutes of horse stance? I don't think so. Why most people could not hold their horse stance to pass 5 minutes marker? Because their body tell their mind that "There is so much pain and their body can't continue any more". This is "body over mind".

Again, when we are talking about "mind over body", we still don't need to bring the word "internal' into the discussion. I'm very allergy to the word "internal".

[Scott R. Brown]

When one has no attachment to the body, form, or the pain, the body is free to achieve a fuller potential of its abilities, "of itself". In the modern world the ones who come closest to experiencing this principle first hand are elite athletes.

For most people it is the mind that interferes with performance. If you can learn to let the body perform without the mind inteferring then seemingly unbelievable results occur!

[Scott R. Brown]

If we just accept the word "internal" refers to the mind, or mental training, it takes away all the baggage that tends to get attached to the word.

[Hendrik]

You are WAY over complicating a very simple ability. If you can't do it you don't know anything about it other than what you have read.

I have done it many times probably hundreds of times in the past 30-40 years so it is no big deal to me.

It has got nothing to do with samadhi or 52 stages of mud used to cloud your mind. When you over complicate it with opinions and theories and what Buddha said, you lose it.

But if you are not interested in learning it or developing it, that is your choice. I know it is possible because I do it all the time.

To be clear, not like Shoju, but in a minor ways, on random occasions, in daily life AND in martial arts training.

My experiences give me confidence. Since you either have not had the experience, or have not recognized it when you have had it, you lack the confidence I have!

And that is not meant to be a criticism, just a simple statement of fact!


No offending means, but straight talk.


I really dont buy what your idea.
If you have done it hundreds of times, done what? attack by a group of samurai ?


have done the following hundreds of times?
"If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!"



if you have done it for hundreds of times why dont you share it with all of us here with details. how do you do it?

What is
if your eye is true and your mind unobstructed,?

how to do it how to get there? mind which mind? unobstructed? what is obstructed?
eyes? which eyes? true what true what false?






See, the Buddha, in the Shurangama sutra, clearly address the 52 states of attainment.

so, the expectation is the same, you have done hundreds of time? does what? how? how many samurai attack you? unbostructed mind?.....? clearly share with us. otherwise anyone can make any claim. that is just a gimmic of a cult preaching.

[Hendrik]

How long can you hold your horse stance? If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes. Will your body shut down after 5 minutes of horse stance? I don't think so. Why most people could not hold their horse stance to pass 5 minutes marker?

Because their body tell their mind that "There is so much pain and their body can't continue any more". This is "body over mind".

Again, when we are talking about "mind over body", we still don't need to bring the word "internal' into the discussion. I'm very allergy to the word "internal".


You seems to think if you cant do it the rest of the world is wrong.

1,
I really dont buy your idea on


If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes.

anyone who is a beginner or amature for not more then a year old training, who train internal art could hold the stance with ease for more then 20 mins with the mind fully aware the body.

for example

Here at MIT where the top intelligent humans goes to school there.

http://web.mit.edu/kungfu/Testimonials.html


2, Chinese Internal art is something needs to be learn similar to a technology.
you can be allegy to the word "internal" and that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I can be allegy to anything but that is just me.

[YouKnowWho]

who train internal art could hold the stance with ease for more then 20 mins with the mind fully aware the body.
Can you find any youtube clip to prove it?

[Hendrik]

If we just accept the word "internal" refers to the mind, or mental training, it takes away all the baggage that tends to get attached to the word.


The following is internal.

it is not a mental training; it is going beyond mental and physical and energy or Qi....


If your Zen cant get you here, you dont even have the penetration power of penetrating the First Aggregate, so forget about penetrating all Five aggregate and attaining the non dual.

lots of people in the past/present/future think they are enligtent.....
but actually they dont even reach or just reach the first state of first aggregate but deluding themselve thinking they know it all.

read the 52 states and see for oneself where one is. instead of deluding oneself in one's day dreaming and going the wrong path.



http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf


Page 280.


The Ten States Affected by the First Aggregate of Form (Rupa)

‘ânanda, when you sit in meditation, if your thoughts are
wiped out, the state (of your mind), now free from them, will
be clear, and will not be changed by either stillness or disturbance.
In this state, both remembrance and forgetfulness are
one undivided whole.

While in it and before realizing samà-
dhi, you are like a man whose eyes are clear but who is still in
the dark, for though your mind is clear, it does not yet shine.
This is the aggregate of form that conditions your meditation.
If your mind radiates, you will clearly perceive all the ten directions
of space. This disappearance of darkness is called the
ending of råpa and you will then leap over and beyond the turbid
kalpa, the main cause of which is your wrong thinking.

1. ‘ânanda, in this profound and clear state of your
penetrating mind, the four elements cease to hinder you, and
after a little, your body will be free from all hindrance. This is
your clear mind spreading to its objects and shows the
effectiveness of your meditation, the temporary achievement
of which does not mean that you are a saint. If you do not
regard it as such, it is an excellent progressive stage, but if
you do, you will succumb to demons.


2. ‘ânanda, in this profound and clear state of your
penetrating mind, you will be able to discern everything
clearly in your body and will suddenly see lively tape-worms.
This is your clear mind spreading in your body and shows its
effective functioning, the temporary achievement of which
does not mean that you are a saint. If you do not regard it as
such, it is an excellent progressive stage, but if you do, you
will succumb to demons.


3.’ ‘Further, in this state of mind which penetrates both
within and without, your spirit and faculties, though not your
body, will intermingle as principals (hosts) and accessories
(guests) and suddenly you will hear a voice in the air preaching
the Dharma or proclaiming its secret meaning in the ten
directions.




In conclusion, there are lots of indepth training and states we the modern man doesnt know and cant reach... using a modern man thinking pattern to grasp is very missleading.

[Hendrik]

Can you find any youtube clip to prove it?


sure, one cant B$ing in MIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9G4KOO_Wdk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkEnxm0juY&feature=player_embedded


http://www.yelp.com/biz/mit-qigong-club-cambridge

[YouKnowWho]

sure, one cant B$ing in MIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9G4KOO_Wdk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkEnxm0juY&feature=player_embedded


http://www.yelp.com/biz/mit-qigong-club-cambridge

Are you pulling my legs? :eek:

That's not "horse stance". I could stand like that for 2 hours if I want to.

This is "horse stance".

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sai-ping-ma-horse-stance1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/%3Fp%3D1533&usg=__MHAO626Yis9pxi4t_uzehLBW0bY=&h=209&w=288&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=nyKt-8TtfpWJoM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=171&ei=R672Tf-YApGusAOP98HRBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhorse%2Bstance%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26r lz%3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1659%26bih%3D734 %26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=297&page=1&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0&tx=144&ty=66

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeUDl6uMIjc

[Hendrik]

Are you pulling my legs? :eek:

That's not "horse stance". I could stand like that for 2 hours if I want to.

This is "horse stance".

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sai-ping-ma-horse-stance1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/%3Fp%3D1533&usg=__MHAO626Yis9pxi4t_uzehLBW0bY=&h=209&w=288&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=nyKt-8TtfpWJoM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=171&ei=R672Tf-YApGusAOP98HRBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhorse%2Bstance%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26r lz%3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1659%26bih%3D734 %26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=297&page=1&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0&tx=144&ty=66

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeUDl6uMIjc


OK.

You have youtube to proof you can stand for 1hour?
just 1 hour, not even two.

how about 20 mins straight similar to the MIT guys. just 20 mins. can you do it? show us.

[Razaunida]

wrong it has everything to do with Chinese martial arts.

this got moved to the internal forum because the moderators don't know what the 8 basic stances are.

no wonder people resort to bad kickboxing...the root has been cut. Pathetic and shameful. My rest is over, back to training.

[YouKnowWho]

This thread just remind me the WC thread "Knife Edge Concept" (That whole thread is gone now).


just 20 mins. can you do it? show us.

No interest to do that. It's not my cup of tea.

[Water-quan]

wrong it has everything to do with Chinese martial arts.

this got moved to the internal forum because the moderators don't know what the 8 basic stances are.

no wonder people resort to bad kickboxing...the root has been cut. Pathetic and shameful. My rest is over, back to training.

The world is full of things people don't know. How have you used that fact? As a weapon, to put others down and elevate yourself. All of your arcane fraud is meaningless, anyway - hence the smoke and mirrors, to make it seem secret and special.

Just video yourself showing the real wushu - if you really want to promote truth. I mean, by all means, point out what frauds pretty much everyone who says they do bagua is - I agree - but I don't know what real bagua is, if anything, because I've yet to see anyone actually use it convincingly. Believe me - If I could do it, I'd video it and show you. So, I'd like to see it. Let me guess - you're invisible to cameras.

[Water-quan]

While I agree that mumbo jumbo has no place in fighting,


Then stop there.

[Scott R. Brown]

Then stop there.

How about do a little reading instead? You can actually read what the Yagyu's wrote about their philosophy of fighting and their integration of Zen principles. Then if you still think its mumbo jumbo ask yourself why they are considered by many to be some of the greatest swordmasters in history, for a few generations in a row. Then when you are done take a moment to read Takuan's letter to them concerning the integration of Zen and swordsmanship!

Then, when you are done with that read a little bit about yamaoka tesshu, and maybe D.T. Suzuki's book on Zen and Japanese Culture! If you need more to read after those I'll be happy to find a few more for you.

You know just a thought......educate yourself FIRST, THEN make an informed and thoughtful comment on the subject, instead of a meaningless and ignorant one!

[Scott R. Brown]

I dont buy these totally.

As I told you before, even Samadhi or alter state has different level.
All these Zen stuffs as the story told above are just "blind believe".

EVen in the Shurangama sutra, the 52 states of alter state attainment is laying out clearly.
what happen and what could be extected when one reaches each state. even the buddha has to do it that way. instead of " oh, i am a buddha, you dont know." It is a causal system world with cause and effect. even the buddha has to follow, no exception.

http://www.amazon.com/Shurangama-Sutra-Fifty-Skandha-Demon-States/dp/0881394017#reader_0881394017

So, again, all these ZEN and Samurai stuffs are fairy tale out of no where.




See, Qi and medirian's are tangible practice in TCM disregards of how one likes to called it biomechanics, bioelectric......etc.



However, these Zen story are just totally out of the reality. not to mention even the Buddha himself has to explain things clearly instead of all the jump to conclusion.


it is very interesting to see you opposing Qi in one way based on physical and accepting Zen unconditionally totally ignore physical.
if you have experience on Zen then share with us what it is and how is it useful for daily living. not to mention, so out of the 52 states of Shurangama sutra, which state have you attained?

Dont give me the Zen... Silence.....etc, which of the 52 States?

if your really knows the non dual and being there, instead of taking "sleeping" and enligtement and silence , then you could go to the first few of the 52 states and scan for the Qi or energy or chakra layers. can you do that?

if you cant. According to the Shurangama sutra which is the core of Chan or Zen practice or China you have broken the precept of lying. meaning falsely claim your attainment which you have never attained.

Don't care what you buy or sell. No one said anything about enlightenment or samadhi or the shurangama sutra or Buddha or the 52 states of mud you use to coat your vision and confuse your mind with preconceived rainbow robot dreams!

You can't do it apparently, so you can't make an informed comment about what you don't know and can't do!

Your preconceived notions cloud your mind. They are obstructions that bind you and limit your perception which colors your understanding. They are yours to treasure and the consequences that result from them are your own just reward.

Feel free to limit your own perceptions and understanding according to your preconceived notions, but stop trying to pull others down into to the mud with you!

[Razaunida]

why do people think I am talking about baguazang? This is inclusive of all Chinese martial arts that ....for some reason use number like 36, 108, 8 in them.

This isn't an "I know something so I'm special" post. It was intended to sew the underlying theories of all Chinese martial arts together.

I had no idea that no one understands the underlying theory of their system. Everyone on here claims to have been training for 20 years, so it wasn't a stretch to think that they knew the foundations of their systems.


If they did, then this single discussion could have created 10,000 styles and brought 10,000 back to one.

But..instead it chimped out. Too bad.

[Scott R. Brown]

why do people think I am talking about baguazang? This is inclusive of all Chinese martial arts that ....for some reason use number like 36, 108, 8 in them.

This isn't an "I know something so I'm special" post. It was intended to sew the underlying theories of all Chinese martial arts together.

I had no idea that no one understands the underlying theory of their system. Everyone on here claims to have been training for 20 years, so it wasn't a stretch to think that they knew the foundations of their systems.


If they did, then this single discussion could have created 10,000 styles and brought 10,000 back to one.

But..instead it chimped out. Too bad.

While it may be interesting to you, has it ever occurred to you that most people don't care because it isn't knowledge that will make one a better fighter?

These things are combined with numbers as a means to remember them and to try to tie the principles into Chinese cosmology!

Once again, while interesting, it is not necessary knowledge. Sure I learned a bunch of that stuff.....30 years ago. I forgot it all cuz it doesn't matter! That doesn't mean you can't share what is important to you, but to imply it is NECESSARY knowledge is the opinion of a neophyte!

[YouKnowWho]

Responses like "Don't matter" just mean "I am neandratol who never learned it."
You start a thread and you just want to hear what you like to hear. Not only you are not willing to accept other's opinions, you don't even accept "Don't matter" opinion.

[taai gihk yahn]

You start a thread and you just want to hear what you like to hear. Not only you are not willing to accept other's opinions, you don't even accept "Don't matter" opinion.

he is the best; a giant amongst men; he hears what he likes, and that is his way; do not question it;

[YouKnowWho]

he is the best; a giant amongst men; he hears what he likes, and that is his way; do not question it;

A: I have something to share ...

B: I don't agree with you because ...
A: I'm sharing my valuable information with you online for free. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

C: Your view is not quite right ...
A: Shut up and just listen, if you don't open your mouth, I won't assume you are mute.

D: I agree with you 100% on this. Thanks for shearing your excellent knowledge ...
A: I'm glad you like it. You are the only person here who understands what TCMA is.

[Scott R. Brown]

He hasn't even shared anything!

He just came on the board and used the vaguest cosmological concept after YinYang, Qi and Wu Xing to phish.

I'd be happy to discuss Trigram associations w/ relation to Kung Fu, if I knew what sequence he was trying to be clever about. He still hasn't answered, so...

@ Razaunida (http://www.fbi.gov/houston/press-releases/2010/ho111010.htm): Fu Xi (http://www.caiwenyu.com.br/logo/Fu-Xi-Xian.gif) or King Wen (http://www.livingiching.com/images/Ken_Wen_Bagua.png?1298824863) - which is it you are using?

Truly said, so far you have had the most informative post on this topic on this thread and he completely ignored it!

[Hendrik]

How about do a little reading instead? You can actually read what the Yagyu's wrote about their philosophy of fighting and their integration of Zen principles. Then if you still think its mumbo jumbo ask yourself why they are considered by many to be some of the greatest swordmasters in history, for a few generations in a row. Then when you are done take a moment to read Takuan's letter to them concerning the integration of Zen and swordsmanship!

Then, when you are done with that read a little bit about yamaoka tesshu, and maybe D.T. Suzuki's book on Zen and Japanese Culture! If you need more to read after those I'll be happy to find a few more for you.

You know just a thought......educate yourself FIRST, THEN make an informed and thoughtful comment on the subject, instead of a meaningless and ignorant one!


So, what is that ZEN principles which get integrate ? what does the ZEN principle train and do for the swordsman?

[Scott R. Brown]

Geez Louise Hendrik,

Here is a thought and comment about your request and a fine example of your preconceived notions coloring your judgment:

While your post here "appears" reasonable, I have your REAL reaction in my e-mail. You know, the one you posted that demonstrates you are an A$$HOLE!

For your information, I did type a response to your questions, but my internet connection was down last night so all my posting today has been off my cell phone. I wasn't about type out the whole thing on my phone.

If you weren't such an A$$HOLE I would've posted it sometime tonight!

But right now I am inclined to post snippets from the post you made, and then erased once you calmed down, and reply to THOSE comments.

There is ample discussion, in Japan on this topic. There is much written about it, and even references to this ability in Chuang tzu. Further, there is scientific research and discussion on this topic relating to Olympic athletes.

So at the moment, rather than kindly explaining to you, once again, your eyes/judgment are cover with 52 kinds of mud and taking the time to explain myself to you I am inclined to tell you to do your own research on a subject you are clearly ill informed about and have formed an ignorant opinion about.

Proving something to you is impossible because your ignorance clouds your judgment. Try being more civil to the people you want something from and they will be more inclined to accommodate you and tolerate your ignorant disgregard of their comments!

[Hendrik]

There is ample discussion, in Japan on this topic. There is much written about it, and even references to this ability in Chuang tzu. Further, there is scientific research and discussion on this topic relating to Olympic athletes.



how is those words applied to action?

[Scott R. Brown]

P.S. "Measure twice, and cut once!"

An old proverb meaning, in this case, think before you post. Calm down and measure what you want to say BEFORE you post it. I get instant notification. So, I get your REAL comments, before your reason takes over and you think more rationally.

When you post A$$HOLE comments and then erase them, you just come off as two-faced!

[Scott R. Brown]

how is those words applied to action?

Why would I want to respond to you Hendrik, you pretended to be interested in the subject, but then got caught showing your true colors.

I told you, read the information out there and figure it out for yourself, like I did. Try not to let your preconceived notions of Buddha's 52 levels of mud misguide you!

[Hendrik]

You cant take this and get angry?

Simple, if you dont want to answer them dont. Why bother to get angry? it just shows you like others to take your words as truth and cant take any slight disagreement. That is not ZEN.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1103372&postcount=59

[Hendrik]

Why would I want to respond to you Hendrik, you pretended to be interested in the subject, but then got caught showing your true colors.

I told you, read the information out there and figure it out for yourself, like I did. Try not to let your preconceived notions of Buddha's 52 levels of mud misguide you!



it doesnt matter what is my colors, if you know your stuffs you know if you dont you dont.

[Scott R. Brown]

You cant take this and get angry?

Simple, if you dont want to answer them dont. Why bother to get angry? it just shows you like others to take your words as truth and cant take any slight disagreement. That is not ZEN.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1103372&postcount=59

Another preconceived notion! What do you do, take pills that give you "super" ignorance?

I am not angry, I am straight to the point with people like you! Unlike you, I don't pretend to be civil after I've already acted like an A$$HOLE!

Neither do I pretend to have a preconceived notion of what I think Zen behavior is or should be!

I expalined to you why I haven't posted anything and you still act like a jerk! How is that going to get you a discussion on the subject?

Why would I spend the time last night typing up a reasonable response to you to not post it? Because you are acting like a jerk! You reap the consequences of your poor social skills. If you want information stop acting like an A$$HOLE!

[Scott R. Brown]

it doesnt matter what is my colors, if you know your stuffs you know if you dont you dont.

Apparently you think you know what you don't know about others, however.

You want others to prove to you, but you can't prove to others, you obfuscate!

You know for a fact I can expalin myself, because I have done so in conversations with you many times in the past. And I have done so using my own words and metaphors with and without reference to established authorities on the subject, while all yuo are able to do is serve the dregs from someone else's meal!

You don't seem to have any original thoughts on the subject. This indicates you limited understanding.

You steal the thoughts of others and merely ape them without understanding. You have even stolen my own metaphors and used them without attribution!

[SPJ]

there are a lot of myths surrounding fu xi.

some legends even said that he is a god, or demi god.

---