For Gene and the mods...

[KC Elbows]

I'm not one to report people. Nor am I a big practitioner of many types of ip. However, I have found some interest in the topic from some recent posts by various constructive members, and, given that this is a kung fu forum, it seems like we should be able to discuss it without all of us having to answer for any one practitioner's views on it.

That said, it has been some time since we could discuss the topic without someone against it trolling to attract the more extreme people, and derailing the topic.

There are currently five or so threads on the topic. One already saw the reasonable members opting out and the thread starter closing the thread due to faxiawhatever. Who is now working on another one.

I am not placing demands, I am simply stating that this topic on the whole has been trolled to death in the last year, such that most reasonable members who know anything useful are forced to opt out of the thread, and this isn't good for the forum.

I will not be able to be on most of this week. I just want you let you know about what's going on. If the threads stay civil and don't get derailed from one or two member's agendas, great. But I really would love to check in when my work schedule lays off and be able to read more cool stuff about this practice in kung fu, and it's been a loooooong time since that was even an option on an ip thread.

I do not have a problem with them starting new topics off of tangents that come up in the threads at hand, no big deal. I also think its great that faxiawhatever was able to raise so much interest in ip on the forum.:D

With this renewed interest, I think it would be good if some threads were driven by those who actually practice it.

Have a good one.

KC Elbows

[lkfmdc]

Just to clarify, but you find the idiot talking about people's wives ok because he's a so called "traditional kung fu person"? :confused:

[KC Elbows]

Just to clarify, but you find the idiot talking about people's wives ok because he's a so called "traditional kung fu person"? :confused:

I missed this, but he might be an arsehole.

Does this seem accurate?

[faxiapreta]

With this renewed interest, I think it would be good if some threads were driven by those who actually practice it.

Really, you think only threads can be started about something if the person practices that something?

How about if that person actually practices what is probably a much more effective method than what the "traditional" practitioners practice of that method that is being brought up? Is he then allowed to bring it up, or does he have to only do it the way the "traditional" people say it is supposed to be done?

[KC Elbows]

Just to clarify, what I said above, plus there appears to be a traditionalist arsehole troll who lkfmdc can fill you in on, and Water-Quan is needy like a kitten taken off of mother's milk too soon.

Additionally, I think BJJ forgot to cite newsmax twice in a recent post.

Also, I have on good authority that Lucas is buying ninja gear from a competitor of the superior purveyor of products, martial arts mart.

[KC Elbows]

Really, you think only threads can be started about something if the person practices that something?

How about if that person actually practices what is probably a much more effective method than what the "traditional" practitioners practice of that method that is being brought up? Is he then allowed to bring it up, or does he have to only do it the way the "traditional" people say it is supposed to be done?

If someone wants to discuss Chinese iron body, on a kung fu forum, and you can start threads about other methods, why don't you?

[faxiapreta]

That said, it has been some time since we could discuss the topic without someone against it trolling to attract the more extreme people, and derailing the topic.

BTW, didn't you recently admit to posting in a trolling manner?

Also, are there rules somewhere that explain what specific things are considered derailing a topic that would be bannable offenses?

Or is this something else you are making up?

[faxiapreta]

If someone wants to discuss Chinese iron body, on a kung fu forum, and you can start threads about other methods, why don't you?

Last time I checked, responding to posters responding to other posters or the the topic is part of how forums work.

Like I said, if there are specific guidelines on what is "unacceptable derailment" please point those of us whom you think are guilty of this to those guidelines.

[KC Elbows]

BTW, didn't you recently admit to posting in a trolling manner?

Me no never.


Also, are there rules somewhere that explain what specific things are considered derailing a topic that would be bannable offenses?

I mentioned that, in practice, the guys who follow people around, as you threatened to do, get banned. This has largely been the case.

[bawang]

just take a break from internet and do some squats

[KC Elbows]

To clarify, the mods and Gene seem to be fairly moderate on bans. But, this is a kung fu foum, so its pretty unlikely that they're gonna be able to justify keeping people around who do not allow discussion of kung fu to be civil. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like I've been wrong on who is gonna get banned lately.

[YouKnowWho]

How about we TCMA lovers all unit together (hope WC guys can join in too). If anyone shows any dis-respect to TCMA, we will all be on that guy's ass, and show that person what a real trolling suppose to look like.

[lkfmdc]

its pretty unlikely that they're gonna be able to justify keeping people around who do not allow discussion of kung fu to be civil.



Plenty of so called TCMA people on this board fit this description. Just so it rains on both sides of the ball, can we ban them also

[faxiapreta]

Plenty of so called TCMA people on this board fit this description. Just so it rains on both sides of the ball, can we ban them also

Exactly... and, gasp, maybe even from the original complainer about the same thing he is complaining about.

[faxiapreta]

Me no never.

Of course that thread was deleted so you can now lie about that without being proven wrong.

Interesting doing the very things you are complaining about.

[Razaunida]

Its not that you are a jerk, its also that you are not smart. I hope you go away. I hope David Ross also goes away. In this way we can have real discussions.

[faxiapreta]

Its not that I am a jerk, its also that I am not smart. I should go away.

Fixed to reflect reality.

[Dragonzbane76]

Like I said, if there are specific guidelines on what is "unacceptable derailment" please point those of us whom you think are guilty of this to those guidelines.

when you signed up for the forum you accepted the rule statement about "civil" discussion.

[taai gihk yahn]

Personally, if sumone starts to derail a thread i find it pretty easy tomignore what they post; sure it can b inconvenient, but it's a public forum: the price u pay for a diverse base of opinion is to hav to tolerate things like that;

What I don't get is why sumone who doesn't practice or believe in IP wud come onto a TCMA forum to belabor the point; im not saying they r wrong, I just don't get the motivation; it's not like they practice IP and hav sum issues w it and so r arguing about how to advance IP training - they just dismiss it; again, mayb they make a good case, but why? What possible benefit cud they derive?

Similarly, those who come on here to "defend"'tradition and route the sell outs: they need to get their heads out of the 13th c and realize that things evolve in ways they may not like,'but that doesn't mean it's a negative thing - but they r just too wrapped up in their ba gua diagrams to notice...

[KC Elbows]

Plenty of so called TCMA people on this board fit this description. Just so it rains on both sides of the ball, can we ban them also

Yes.
987655

[SPJ]

How about we TCMA lovers all unit together (hope WC guys can join in too). If anyone shows any dis-respect to TCMA, we will all be on that guy's ass, and show that person what a real trolling suppose to look like.

there are 2 main reasons for me to be on line

1. listen to music from youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR7Ceb5TP58

2. post some info tidbits in kung fu related forums.

after staying and reading any forums for a while

you learn to sieve thru all the posts and find something constructive or informative to post.


---

:)

[lkfmdc]

I am a jerk, I am also not smart. I should go away.
In this way we can have real discussions.

fixed for truth

PS: if you think I am going away HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH

it isn't going to happen

[Lucas]

also, i have on good authority that lucas is buying ninja gear from a competitor of the superior purveyor of products, martial arts mart.

LIIEEESS!!! (http://www.martialartsmart.com/16-09.html)

[wenshu]

Wait, so you mean Bruce Lee didn't actually teach Manny Pacquaio how to Wing Chun?

I am so confused.

[Lucas]

Wait, so you mean Bruce Lee didn't actually teach Manny Pacquaio how to Wing Chun?

I am so confused.

it was the ghost of bruce lee and he taught him iron palm

[Razaunida]

fixed for truth

PS: if you think I am going away HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH

it isn't going to happen



Clearly, you have nothing else.

[wenshu]

I'm not one to report people. Nor am I a big practitioner of many types of ip. However, I have found some interest in the topic from some recent posts by various constructive members, and, given that this is a kung fu forum, it seems like we should be able to discuss it without all of us having to answer for any one practitioner's views on it.

That said, it has been some time since we could discuss the topic without someone against it trolling to attract the more extreme people, and derailing the topic.

There are currently five or so threads on the topic. One already saw the reasonable members opting out and the thread starter closing the thread due to faxiawhatever. Who is now working on another one.

I am not placing demands, I am simply stating that this topic on the whole has been trolled to death in the last year, such that most reasonable members who know anything useful are forced to opt out of the thread, and this isn't good for the forum.

I will not be able to be on most of this week. I just want you let you know about what's going on. If the threads stay civil and don't get derailed from one or two member's agendas, great. But I really would love to check in when my work schedule lays off and be able to read more cool stuff about this practice in kung fu, and it's been a loooooong time since that was even an option on an ip thread.

I do not have a problem with them starting new topics off of tangents that come up in the threads at hand, no big deal. I also think its great that faxiawhatever was able to raise so much interest in ip on the forum.:D

With this renewed interest, I think it would be good if some threads were driven by those who actually practice it.

Have a good one.

KC Elbows


Who comes to a martial arts forum to avoid hostility?

The one redeeming quality about this place is that amidst all the chaos the disccusion still manages to be, at times, informative, civil, erudite to the point of pedantry and moderately humorous. That is, for a bunch of figure skating, sequined silk wearing, glorified kickboxing, sexually marginalized Asian fetishist LARPERs.



http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfaFNHYXDqmeDK1l1Lt7WLdckPELaAU WcobUx6bH2x3A2fiPQlkw

[Lucas]

figure skating, sequined silk wearing, glorified kickboxing, sexually marginalized Asian fetishist LARPERs.


is that an official title? and can you make me a patch for my gi?

[Cdr.Instigator]

All parties involved in this latest forum squabble should realize that, ever since Al Gore invented the Internets... crap around similar forums have noticed some weird anomalies , surges and spikes of "From behind the monitor death ninjas and rabid trolls. Please, let's all take a deep breath, count to 10 and sing Kumbaya!!






and now for something completely different!! :D

[David Jamieson]

when did storm start sporting a mullet?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can honestly tell you guys that MY patience is running short about some of the crap that is happening so, YES, it would be in everyone's best interest to troll less and post substance more.

If posts have merit they don't need trolling and insults to make their point.

[lkfmdc]

I very good member just PM'ed me that they are GONE.... I have seen forums become ghost towns, and I think this one may be heading in that direction

[Brule]

Clearly you're just a glorified k-boxing wife beater wearing phoenix eye fist silk pyjama homemade wine making newb. So go post in the wing chun forum :D

Step!

It truly is unfortunate that there some people here who make valid points and add a lot to conversations without getting personal. I just hope they won't let one or two bad eggs push them away.

Step!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I very good member just PM'ed me that they are GONE.... I have seen forums become ghost towns, and I think this one may be heading in that direction

Yeah, got that PM too.

[wenshu]

is that an official title? and can you make me a patch for my gi?

Patches are only awarded to those who reach 9th dan 12th stripe of Colostomy-ryu lineage Mouth Boxing quan.

[taai gihk yahn]

Yeah, got that PM too.

Ditto

A real shame, I learned a lot from his posts.

The storm-off / back-an-hour-later drama queens could learn a thing or two about how someone takes their leave in a classy manner...

[Scott R. Brown]

just take a break from internet and do some squats

Doin those now......I suck at them too!:mad:


Wait, so you mean Bruce Lee didn't actually teach Manny Pacquaio how to Wing Chun?

I am so confused.

You are confused? All this time I thought it was Wang Chung......tonight!

Step

[GeneChing]

I don't need the opinions of lkfmdc or sanjuro_ronin as they've already voiced theirs privately. Is it time to form a lynch mob? :rolleyes:

[Razaunida]

I know many people who won't post here anymore because of Ross. Very little to add, but a lot of hate to go around.

[GeneChing]

Things would get real quiet around here for a spell. A little time-out might be pleasant.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't need the opinions of lkfmdc or sanjuro_ronin as they've already voiced theirs privately. Is it time to form a lynch mob? :rolleyes:

I have never been an advocate of banning anyone!

All that needs to be done is to ignore the person you don't want to interact with. No one is making anyone read or post!

[wenshu]

I nominate myself for execution by ban hammer.

Maybe I'll finally manage to get some work done.

[GeneChing]

Scott R. Brown - I feel ya. I'm always amazed at how personally some members take comments here. Are our members really that thin-skinned. They wouldn't be able to stand a good minute of locker room smack talk.

wenshu - recite xiaohong once for each post. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

I nominate myself for execution by ban hammer.

Maybe I'll finally manage to get some work done.

OH! You have a job???:eek:

Well THAT explains a lot!:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

Things would get real quiet around here for a spell. A little time-out might be pleasant.

Razamundo posts almost exactly like Mysterious Power, who was banned once already, if that means anything; otherwise, It minds not me if u ban him or not (despite thera t that he has posted several attacks on menstating that my wife is being infaithful to me, which is beyond juvenile, but whatever); my real issue is that he obviously knows Dave personally, and attacks him without being man enuf to say who he is - this is "class A" douche-baggery, regardless of whether he makes any valid points or not;

[Razaunida]

Look at the posts of any substance in the last few days.

One was moved about the i ching and kung fu theory because someone thought it must have to do with bagua or internal arts.

If you look at my posts you will find that I pack more value as a contributor than Ross the hater.

I know many people wanted to post more in depth topics here but feel that it is a waste because Ross will post sexy girl pictures. The rest of the internet is for that.

Maybe instead we can focus on real discussion and start to attract higher level folks.

[Razaunida]

Razamundo posts almost exactly like Mysterious Power, who was banned once already, if that means anything; otherwise, It minds not me if u ban him or not (despite thera t that he has posted several attacks on menstating that my wife is being infaithful to me, which is beyond juvenile, but whatever); my real issue is that he obviously knows Dave personally, and attacks him without being man enuf to say who he is - this is "class A" douche-baggery, regardless of whether he makes any valid points or not;

Although I don't always like you, I respect your posts on biomechanics, you are too close to Ross to see clearly what he has allowed himself to become.

[GeneChing]

...although at over 11K posts, we all know Dave personally. Seriously, anyone who puts that much out there on this forum is open to attack. I have tons of people who talk to me as if they know me - and in fact, they do know a lot about me because I'm pretty translucent here on the web.

Given that a lot of the fight is between Razaunida & lkfmdc - let's do it this way - the next one to mention the other's name gets banned.

Man, it's like separating little kids on the playground. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Clearly Dave was posting this as I was posting the post above.

Alright, you two. Go to your separate corners now.

[GeneChing]

I respect that. Thanks Dave.

Clean break, gentlemen, clean break.

[Lucas]

if u ban me u just have to let me compete in ninja star!!! :mad:

im going for the win this year for realz!

[Razaunida]

Gene Ching = King Solomon

[GeneChing]

...that or subscribing (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html). :rolleyes:

I'm starting to think I should just ban everyone.

Should I ban Dave now for his barrage of provoking posts? Maybe I should do so for all the PMs he's sending me? :p

[David Jamieson]

...that or subscribing (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html). :rolleyes:

I'm starting to think I should just ban everyone.

Should I ban Dave now for his barrage of provoking posts? Maybe I should do so for all the PMs he's sending me? :p

Just threaten to cut the baby in half.
Which ever mother is ok with that, ban her! lol

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe instead we can focus on real discussion and start to attract higher level folks.

Maybe start by setting an example we can all admire and wish to follow then?

Novel idea, huh?


Should I ban Dave now for his barrage of provoking posts? Maybe I should do so for all the PMs he's sending me? :p

You could stun everyone here into silence and ban yourself!:eek:

[Lucas]

I read online one time that if you dont take internet as zerious bidnizz u might die from brain a hemmorhage...

i say dont ban anyone. just let me modify their posts it will be more fun that way

[Razaunida]

Maybe start by setting an example we can all admire and wish to follow then?

Novel idea, huh?



You could stun everyone here into silence and ban yourself!:eek:


I did start that way and then the *******es came out of the woodwork to bray in my direction.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Gene could ban everyone and put automated bots in thier place. Response ideas are:

LKFMDC: You all are still wrong and the six people who sign up tomorrow to argue with me are wrong as well.

Sanjuro Ronin: Who wants to look at hottie pics?

David Jameison: Ross, you are wrong. How do I know this? Because I am going to keep writing and responding to you, (even though you have had me on ignore for the past five years) until you man up and admit it.

Lucas: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Razaunida: Ross, I will not rest until I have laid my vengeance upon thee.

Bawang: Wu De is good and justifiable. Chilese rapes white womans and behead traitors till good.

Problem solved, Gene.:D

[lkfmdc]

Should I ban Dave now for his barrage of provoking posts?



so now starting discussion on the discussion forum is a banable offense? :rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

I did start that way and then the *******es came out of the woodwork to bray in my direction.

I did notice your thread on forms and meditation, so far so good! It is libel to be a short thread though. The ones with real conversations usually are!


Gene could ban everyone and put automated bots in thier place. Response ideas are:

LKFMDC: You all are still wrong and the six people who sign up tomorrow to argue with me are wrong as well.

Sanjuro Ronin: Who wants to look at hottie pics?

David Jameison: Ross, you are wrong. How do I know this? Because I am going to keep writing and responding to you, (even though you have had me on ignore for the past five years) until you man up and admit it.

Lucas: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Razaunida: Ross, I will not rest until I have laid my vengeance upon thee.

Bawang: Wu De is good and justifiable. Chilese rapes white womans and behead traitors till good with mayonnaise.

Problem solved, Gene.:D

Fixed it for you!

No need to thank me! I am altruistic and never do anything for thanks or the attention or anything like that!

[GeneChing]

But there will always be trolls. It's a forum, open to the public, on the web. To expect a forum of this magnitude to be troll-free is like a ring-fighter imagining his street fight opponent won't be armed.

Obviously, I'm okay with the trolls, for the most part. The average member is a poor writer, and as a professional writer, that gives me the same advantage as being a professional martial artist here.

What has always struck me as amusing about these flame wars is how crude the manner of combat is. Perhaps it's because most people are poor writers. However, most attacks are simply attack>counterattack. There's no parry/riposte, no countertime, no second intention. I would expect more from the martial arts community. I find this rather disappointing.


so now starting discussion on the discussion forum is a banable offense? :rolleyes:In all honesty, bothering me when I have to get work done is a bannable offense. I have several things I must get off my desk today and I haven't been able to get things going with all this kerfuffle. If I have more time, I'd get things more sorted, but when I'm pressed for time, I just ban whoever is in my face and sort it out later.

[lkfmdc]

In all honesty, bothering me when I have to get work done is a bannable offense.



you need a sign, like "gone fishing" but more like "gene is buried in papers"

[GeneChing]

you need a sign, like "gone fishing" but more like "gene is buried in papers"
How about 'Gene's gone out for nachos'? ;)

Actually, I'm always pretty busy here. My position isn't an honest living. No rest for the wicked. :o

[Dale Dugas]

Let me know if there is anything I can do.

[Lucas]

Lucas: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?



Actually, wrong. By comparing the European Swallow with bird species of similar body mass, we can estimate that the swallow beats its wings 18 times a second with an amplitude of 18 cm:


Species Body mass Frequency Amplitude
Zebra Finch 13 g 27 Hz 11 cm
European Swallow 20 g ≈ 18 Hz? ≈ 18 cm?
Downy Wood****** 27 g 14 Hz 29 cm
Budgerigar 34 g 14 Hz 15 cm

Note that even the tiny Zebra Finch flaps its wings no more than 27 times a second while cruising.

If we ignore body mass and look only at bird species with a similar wingspan, we can estimate an average frequency of 14 beats per second and an amplitude of 23 cm:

Species Wingspan Frequency Amplitude
Budgerigar 27 cm 14 Hz 15 cm
European Swallow ≈ 28–30 cm ≈ 14 Hz? ≈ 23 cm?
Downy Wood****** 31 cm 14 Hz 29 cm
European Starling 35 cm 14 Hz 26 cm

By averaging all 6 values, we can estimate that an average European Swallow flies at cruising speed with a frequency of roughly 15 beats per second, and an amplitude of roughly 22 cm.

[GeneChing]

Let me know if there is anything I can do.
Can you spank Lucas? He's been a very naughty ninja. Very naughty.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gene, you know my views on banning, I don't agree with it.
That said when thread after thread is contaminated by personal issues then, what choice do we have?

[Lucas]

Can you spank Lucas? He's been a very naughty ninja. Very naughty.

dale better grow some boobs lose the johnson shrink to half his size and get some hair before he can spank this ninja!! :eek:

[ShortBridge]

I'm not a major contributor to this forum, it's something I wanted to try out this year and I haven't decided yet if it's something that is useful to me or not.

I did sign up though because I was interested in getting to know people who did what I do and things that are parallel to it. I have a tiny bit to share and a lot to learn. I've been training in various forms since the 1970s, if you count boxing, which most people do. I saw the first 5 UFCs when they used to be single round, no weight class mixed martial arts tournaments and they changed my thinking to a great degree. I spent some time following in a nationally respected MMA gym who trained some of that second batch of UFC fighters. I spend a few years doing Muay Thai and JuJitsu.

Somehow, I discovered and was surprised by Wing Chun at a small, non-commercial school with no sign in a city that I used to live in. It became the center of what I have been doing since 1999. I've met and branched out a bit into what I consider to be related southern styles. I love it and it's what I do. I would love to exchange with other people who share my interest.

Here's the problem, I join Kung Fu Magazine forums for that purpose, I see that there are sub-fora for Kung Fu, Southern Chinese Martial Arts, Wing Chun and MMA and street fighting. I go to the appropriate forums and either start or jump into a discussion that interests me. Seems reasonable, right? But, every one of those threads ends up with someone confronting us from and MMA standpoint. What we do is bull****, we're llarpers, we're lying, we're somehow perpetrating crimes against the innocent and unsuspecting public and must be stopped. I'm just ignorant about the profound truths of MMA training.

So, I could argue that I'm not, but that doesn't work, someone once claimed that I was lying about having ever boxed. How do I respond to that? Pictures from a 1980 Golden Gloves tournament, what would that prove it could be anyone, right? You want said picture, give me a minute on google and I'll find something that will work. Now will you let me ask questions about Southern Mantis in peace?

The bottom line is this. I'd love to have an international forum to exchange ideas on kung fu with other people rather than just the people in my club. If this isn't that place, where is? My leaving is no big loss, some of you guys have been here for years. But, there is no reason to come here if I can't read about and discuss TCMAs.

One more comment: I'm not suggesting that who I am is important or relevant. I assure you all that it's not and I'm not, but the point is that no one knows. Some of the people confronting me and people like me weren't alive when I was in my first ring or on my first mat. Some of the worst offenders have been training for a year. One guy HAVEN'T STARTED YET, he was just watching TV and then confronting people about their life's work. I've chosen the path that I've chosen and I'm not selling anything, so it's confusing and disappointing to me that on a forum that seems to have been build for people just like me that my choices are somehow received as a affront to decency.

The fact is, I've not logged on in a while for these exact reasons. Last weekend, I traveled with my sifu and some training partners to train with the head of our linage. I came home really inspired and excited and decided to give these forums another try. 3 days later I'm in a wing chun discussion and I get confronted about the "truths" of MMA and why won't I just admit that there is no value to how I train?

If it is somehow offensive to talk about wing chun in the wing chun forum, then there's no reason for me to go there. I never talk about wing chun in the MMA forum. If you knew me in real life, you'd know that I'm not the type to push my beliefs on people or spend any time letting someone push theirs on me. I'm not going to do it on-line either.

[GeneChing]

Jon_Ray_Brooks, there are plenty of decent discussions here, not to mention a lot of archived news. You just need to have a high noise filter because it's an open forum with some very noisy members.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Jon_Ray,

Just don't respond to those who don't interest you or you find too immature or argumentative.

I understand that you can start discussing something with someone and you think it will be a fine, informative, discussion and then all of a sudden you find that you have been drawn into an argument and trying to explain your views to someone who you will never reach! When you find that happening, just stop responding to that person. If necessary ignore them the next time they try to engage you in conversation.

Since most of us here are martial artists of some kind, there is an inherent competitive, testosterone drive under current.

I've been here about 11 or 12 years now and you will rarely find me engaging in any conversation in a meaningful manner. I used to, but I have found it to be mostly unproductive, so I just goof off now!

I am not saying you should goof off like I do, I am just giving a little personal background. Now this forum is mostly a pastime for me. Something to do and hang out with like minded people. I'll argue from time to time too, but I consider it part of my training and never take it seriously. Most of these guys are good guys even if you disagree and argue at times. If we met each other we would have a great time training and goofing off making fun of each other. That is what guys do! ;)

[GeneChing]

Most of these guys are good guys even if you disagree and argue at times. If we met each other we would have a great time training and goofing off making fun of each other. That is what guys do! ;)
Well said, Scott. I've had the honor of meeting many of the members here face-to-face, even the psycho ones like uki :p, and in person, they are almost always good people, serious about their practice but willing to have fun here. I look forward to meeting more forum members. Yes, yes, even the psycho ones. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Well said, Scott. I've had the honor of meeting many of the members here face-to-face, even the psycho ones like uki :p, and in person, they are almost always good people, serious about their practice but willing to have fun here. I look forward to meeting more forum members. Yes, yes, even the psycho ones. ;)

Hey EVERYBODY!!! (said in Elmo's voice)

GENE CHING knows who I am!:eek:

Now I'm famous! Expect to see my own monthly article in the magazine real soon!

(Sorry:o I can't be serious and thoughtful for too long or my head will explode! And I don't have a lot of confidence I can count on TGY to come clean up the mess!)

[mawali]

But there will always be trolls. It's a forum, open to the public, on the web. To expect a forum of this magnitude to be troll-free is like a ring-fighter imagining his street fight opponent won't be armed.

What has always struck me as amusing about these flame wars is how crude the manner of combat is. Perhaps it's because most people are poor writers. However, most attacks are simply attack>counterattack. There's no parry/riposte, no countertime, no second intention. I would expect more from the martial arts community. I find this rather disappointing.

Mr Gene Ching
You are a scholar of the highest calibre!

Your description is the best I have see in that I have been on a few forums to the extent that I was made a troll (anointed as it were) because I happened to disagree with a few of the characters on their training while being respectful and humble in my responses. Never once did I disparage any of the personalities but I am reminded of the adage that because one is a vegetarian one does not expect that the bull will charge!

[YouKnowWho]

But, every one of those threads ends up with someone confronting us from and MMA standpoint.
I feel exactly the same way as you do.

I don't argue with those MMA guys any more. I'll just response with the following "cut and paste":
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all know that everything that

- TCMA does is bad.
- MMA does is good.

We TCMA guys should all get some ropes, find a quite place, and hang ourselves.

Anything else?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do I respond to that? Pictures from a 1980 Golden Gloves tournament,...
The problem is those people who asked your prove had never proved themselves. If you find a

- demo youtube clip, people will say that your demo partner just let you to beat him up.
- tournament youtube clip, people will say that tournament is not the same as street fight.
- street fight youtube clip, people will say that since you didn't kill your opponent, your IP is weak.
- street fight youtube clip and you did kill your opponent, people won't say anything but cops will knock on your door soon.

If you don't post any youtube clips, people will want your prove. If you do, people will say that you are showing off and trying to advertise yourself online. It's a lose-lose situation.

In this forum, it's better to just touch the surface of any subjects and move on. For example,

A: What's 6DFV?
B: 6DFV is the force that can be used to beat the sh!t out of you.

If people interest in more detail, you can then go a bit deeper. If people just want to argue against you no matter what you have said, this surface level discussion should be just good enough for this forum.

[taai gihk yahn]

Although I don't always like you, I respect your posts on biomechanics, you are too close to Ross to see clearly what he has allowed himself to become.
lol; the last post you made in regards to my writing about biomechanics was that it was useless, or something to that effect; which is fine, don't care, but at least don't say it with a straight face; then, of course, was the whole thing about my wife getting it from the postman (or milkman, whichever); again, who cares, but hardly the Hand of Friendship there; then, after ur grudging back-handed "compliment", u assert that I am a mindless follower of Ross; again, whatever, but really now, get ur ducks in a row already!


Look at the posts of any substance in the last few days.

One was moved about the i ching and kung fu theory because someone thought it must have to do with bagua or internal arts.

If you look at my posts you will find that I pack more value as a contributor than Ross the hater.

I know many people wanted to post more in depth topics here but feel that it is a waste because Ross will post sexy girl pictures. The rest of the internet is for that.

Maybe instead we can focus on real discussion and start to attract higher level folks.
no, see, the problem is not what u post but how u post it, with this subtext of smug superiority - as if the topics u start r the ones truly worthy of posting on the forum, in other words, u r trying to dictate what we shud b talking about here; true, it is a kung fu forum, but just because that sets the context, it doesn't set the content! otherwise, it's just about control and limitation - not very Taoist of u at all!

in fact, ur initial posts just list a bunch of factoids: pre/post natal this, lo river map that - and u insist on how critical they r - but then u don't discuss at all ur own personal experiences that give u any sort of legitimate insight into what these archetypes mean, either in the abstract, or more importantly, in practical application;

I think that u r a dull and boring person, who discovered this stuff and now uses it as a means of being "instresting" (as my 6 y/o likes to say); try reading something ike Trungpa's essays on spiritual materialism, it may give u some insite into ur own situation

[GeneChing]

this subtext of smug superiority
Like that's unique?

[taai gihk yahn]

Like that's unique?

There is no subtext to my smug superiority, it's right out there!

[GeneChing]

i'll give you that one. score one for tgy.

[KC Elbows]

I think my original point was not clear enough.

If someone desires to come on here specifically to down ip threads and turn them into the same flamefest, they can, irrespective, and even because of, the choice of ignoring such threads. The deleted ip thread was exactly that. Sanjuro does ignore those who are clueless or trolling, and yet he had to opt out. As did each and every one of the most experienced people on here in ip that were originally posting on that thread. Because no one can really hold a useful convo when there is a nut ascribing extreme views to them with every post.

We can say it's not this way, but it is. All it requires is the desire to outright kill the thread to drive all the people in the know on the thread's topic off of it. And ip has been one that has been derailed every time in the last, what, six months, eight?

The reality is that those people get banned. Because they are the one group that must get banned, if they do not allow conversation. We can say that they shouldn't but they do, because there isn't exactly an option.

As for the troll following Ross, while all the flaming is stupid, most people ignore it. However, he did derail a thread where Ross was announcing an event he was hosting on behalf of others who organize the event, and it's a good event. That's just lame. Serious wife cracks are lame, too. I see Ross' point.

I didn't accent banning on purpose in my original post. My point was that a topic related to kung fu on this forum was, up until this week, largely impossible to discuss, and that the last instance was not sensitive people not able to take trolling, but moderate, reasonable people who had expertise in the topic matter being forced out without flaming in response for the most part, by a numbskull. Being neither moderate nor responsible, I opted to put out chum in the form of multiple ip threads, with the knowledge that it would, as Wenshu might say, drive them into impotent apoplexy at three people liking ip, unless they trolled them all. Plus, it was a good excuse to hear about more ip experiences.

But the problem with the original thread WAS NOT thin skinned people, the problem was a numbskull driving off the qualified people and continuing a default on the forum where ip threads must all end that way.

If there is another solution than banning to allow such conversation, fine.

[GeneChing]

But there will always be numbskulls. We're an open forum. There's no way to even begin to keep track of all the numbskulls. We all know that. The fault really lies within the qualified people who feed the trolls. Those of us who've been here for some time, well, it's up to us to set examples and not get sucked into such flame wars. It takes two to tango - that's a fundamental martial concept really.

The expectation of civility in others is fallacious. The expectation of civility in oneself is paramount.

[KC Elbows]

But there will always be numbskulls. We're an open forum. There's no way to even begin to keep track of all the numbskulls. We all know that. The fault really lies within the qualified people who feed the trolls. Those of us who've been here for some time, well, it's up to us to set examples and not get sucked into such flame wars. It takes two to tango - that's a fundamental martial concept really.

The expectation of civility in others is fallacious. The expectation of civility in oneself is paramount.

A troll simply plays a game that requires people buy into it. Technically, these people are netnannies trying to save people from ip and kungfu, and are forced to be trolls because you keep having to ban them and/or using a regular long term screen name would actually become ignored even by the extreme nuts and regular flamers due to their sanctimonious behavior, so either way, they make a lot of handles, but do not require anyone buy into their game, interjecting themselves as would be saviors into any topic that is central to their cause.

Arguing doesn't win the game for them, flamewars are merely a bonus. Reduction of all ip discussion to the least qualified and most ridiculous is a total win for them if ip is their hangup. So the qualified avoiding the discussion is a prerequisite for total victory.

Fortunately, you always ban them in the end.:p:D

[David Jamieson]

Curses, foiled again!...:(

[GeneChing]

Fortunately, you always ban them in the end.:p:D
Still haven't banned David yet. I keep considering it and then he makes up by plugging my book (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1)... if you call that plugging. I'm sure there's a more colorful term for that. ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

But there will always be numbskulls. We're an open forum. There's no way to even begin to keep track of all the numbskulls. We all know that. The fault really lies within the qualified people who feed the trolls. Those of us who've been here for some time, well, it's up to us to set examples and not get sucked into such flame wars. It takes two to tango - that's a fundamental martial concept really.

The expectation of civility in others is fallacious. The expectation of civility in oneself is paramount.

this should be the first paragraph of the "terms of use" agreement...

[KC Elbows]

Still haven't banned David yet. I keep considering it and then he makes up by plugging my book (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1)... if you call that plugging. I'm sure there's a more colorful term for that. ;)

I don't think there is.:D

[lkfmdc]

Still haven't banned David yet.



Did G'd ban Satan? No, he gave him his own domain. I should have a sub forum or something. we could also use it to plug your book

[GeneChing]

Did G'd ban Satan? No, he gave him his own domain. I should have a sub forum or something. we could also use it to plug your bookThat's the best comment so far.

You know, you can always host your own forum. The internet is yours to command. I'd join that. Maybe I'd even post photoshopped pix of me molesting your DVDs while wearing an lkfmdc mask. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Truth of the matter Gene is that, no matter how much Dave gets on our nipples, his good contributions far outweigh the bad/silly stuff, much like the majority of us here.
Since I was given permission to post this, I will give an example as to why a poster decided that this is no longer the right fit got him:


I find that I'm not contributing anymore because it's meaningless in this uncivil environment; Razaunida's behavior kinda cinched it for me, but it's more than that.

On May28, there was a "KungFu" tourney here in Ottawa. I hadn't been to one in a while, so I decided to go, as a way to network w/ the local Kung Fu community. Sunny Tang showed up, and he brought a guest: a gentleman by the name of Sun Wen Yuan, who ended up giving a wonderful demo and lecture on the state of Wushu/Kung Fu and where he's taking it. He was very polite, didn't disrespect anyone, yet simultaneously shared and promoted his views about such things as realistic training in Kung Fu - the importance of basics, the value of play, sparring, multiple rulesets, etc. I was blown away, because here was a high level guy sharing stuff that I (and a bunch of us on the forum) have been trying to share for some time; although it pleased me, it was VERY poorly received by the crowd.

I had the good luck of speaking with Sun Wen Yuan personally after he'd done/said his bit: he's a bright, enthusiastic guy who really wants to share Kung Fu. I thanked him for sharing what I thought was something that N.A. TCMAists really needed to hear, and let him know my views were the same. Surprised, he smiled excitedly and we sank deep into conversation. I have no illusions about my "status" in the Kung Fu community (especially compared to this guy) and felt really honored and lucky to spend time with him. On a few occasions, people came up to him to kowtow and give him face in the weird way that North American Larpers do, and he was courteous to them... but he always returned to our conversation with a "now, where were we..." kind of attitude. He wasn't interested in lecturing me: he was actually interested in my views. He'd make a point, and then ask "what do you think?" It was a great conversation, and we even did a few drills.

Looking at the forum, I realized that it was, for the most part, exactly like the club I had just visited, or the people at the tourney who dismissed his talk: It would just become another ignorant, secret-handshake troll-fest. It's at this point that I started thinking about leaving - whereas at one time a post like that would have sparked decent discussion, I felt that these days, the level of rigid, absolutist, narcissistic chest-thumping would just bury what I thought was valuable to the Kung Fu community as a whole. Add to this the recent spate of members who have arrived to quite simply lecture and/or attack the forum, and you begin to see not only my disinterest but also my increasing unwillingness to be associated with this community (as a whole, I mean.. of course there are some great members but the ratio is mega-messed up, at least in terms of posting.)

Anyway, that was long-winded. I wish you and the remaining members well, and hey, who knows, the forum might change for the better some day... at which point, I'd be happy to return, contribute, and even suffer through the trolls and Larpers, so long as there weren't too many of them. For now, though, I'm taking my leave, disassociating myself from this place, and having productive Kung Fu discussions via email with people I've met on this forum - not to mention, I'm training more too.


I left out the part about me being the most uber of moderators :D.


On a serious note, this post says a lot.

[lkfmdc]

On May28, there was a "KungFu" tourney here in Ottawa. I hadn't been to one in a while, so I decided to go, as a way to network w/ the local Kung Fu community. Sunny Tang showed up, and he brought a guest: a gentleman by the name of Sun Wen Yuan, who ended up giving a wonderful demo and lecture on the state of Wushu/Kung Fu and where he's taking it. He was very polite, didn't disrespect anyone, yet simultaneously shared and promoted his views about such things as realistic training in Kung Fu - the importance of basics, the value of play, sparring, multiple rulesets, etc


A LOT of people who are self appointed "defenders of the faith" would be shocked to learn how many high level people with very advanced knowledge of TCMA have views more akin to the so called "MMA people" / "Kickboxing knuckleheads"

Back in the 1990's I met Xia BaHua. He was president of the Chinese Wushu Association and had been a professor at the Beijing Physical Culture Institute. Among the classes he taught was "sanshou/san da"

A few remember this story, Professor Xia only speaks Mandarin, he gave a lecture and for a variety of reasons a pseudo "Shaolin monk"/person of questionable character ended up translating

I was really annoyed because Professor Xia was sharing important ideas and concepts and the "translator" turned it into pre packaged kung fu theatre. In this case, I told the Americans that what was being said in English was NOT what Prof Xia was saying and later I told Prof Xia the same thing

But far too much stuff like this has probably happened and no one was the wiser

[David Jamieson]

Truth of the matter Gene is that, no matter how much Dave gets on our nipples, his good contributions far outweigh the bad/silly stuff, much like the majority of us here.


I dunno, I give him 50/50

Most of his diatribes on cma are self hating in some respects.
Most of his posts on mma are buck basic stuff.
Most of his other posts are taunts, bile and vitriol.

Also, I personally think he's one of the biggest jerks here in his online persona.
To be fair, I've never met the guy. I find him loopy and struggling with his love for his master, his ego and how he hides his kf love by getting into angry smash fests on a padded floor.

meh. :) I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way about our forum nonsensical biting dog.

Maybe it's because i see my own mess ups in his behaviours? That's usually what I don't like most. That is, seeing my own poor behaviours in someone else. lol :D

[md1]

For what it is worth I have been on the forum for years now and really like it. I see no real reason to ban anyone unless things are way out of control personal... hell what's wrong with a little smack talk? If you can't take it don't respond to it or start it.

The debate will forever continue who is the best or which art or system is the best.... who cares, i'm to old for that ****. The points most of the guys who don't agree with kung fu are valid and in general kf has gotten soft and has been filled with to much bull ****.

In the end I like the fact that these guys call people out or bring up valid points, great... It will make us all step up our games and that is a very good thing.

[lkfmdc]

You know, you can always host your own forum. The internet is yours to command. I'd join that.



I'd like to thank Gene for the hook up

[Lucas]

That PhotoShop is the rad!

We all need our views challenged. That is an important part of development via self evaluation.

I offer online courses for posting on KFM. Very cheap!

Just pm me ur credit card information and your mothers maiden name and the city you were born in :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Everyone has an agenda, but the real humor is why anyone would care. Has there really been anyone that completely changed what they do because someone on a Kung Fu forum told them they suck and should do something differently?

I'm sure there has been, but no one would ever admit to it. You have to take things with a sense of humor and not so serious to really get anything out of this or any other public forum. Hell, when the Bullshido dingleberries came over for the April Fools prank they spent a lot of time and effort on fooling a whole 3 people. Was it worth it? I don't know, I guess if it gave them a laugh it did.

I train how I train and do what I do because of my experiences in real life and in training in different areas in real life, not what big bad chest puffer forum member tells me to. There are several members on here I like and enjoy their insight, there are others I wouldn't p**iss on if they were on fire. But someone changing their viewpoints because you hassle them over the net is beyond idiotic in it's concept.:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

You have to take things with a sense of humor



that's an exceptional idea (I'll have to try and stop being so serious all the time)














































































:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

that's an exceptional idea (I'll have to try and stop being so serious all the time)

I wish you would, that way we could go back to making fun of Wing Chun, photoshopping Gene, talking about MMA knuckleheads, (oh wait.....:D)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you guys may be missing the issues, as point out in the PM I posted.
When a forum puts out a vibe that, decent and deep discussion about the subject matter it (the forum) was developed for, what does that show?

I like silly threads as much as the next guy, but the fact is, we get far too many decent threads derailed because of "trolls" that don't have the experience in the subject matter BUT still deem it appropriate to continue to derail the thread even after thei view has been shown to be irrelevant.
Case in point the IP thread that was derailed because of the constant "show that IP works in a fight" when it was stated that IP skill has nothing directly to do with fighting skill.

That is like criticizing HIIT or strength training because it doesn't directly develop on fighting skill.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think you guys may be missing the issues, as point out in the PM I posted.
When a forum puts out a vibe that, decent and deep discussion about the subject matter it (the forum) was developed for, what does that show?

I like silly threads as much as the next guy, but the fact is, we get far too many decent threads derailed because of "trolls" that don't have the experience in the subject matter BUT still deem it appropriate to continue to derail the thread even after thei view has been shown to be irrelevant.
Case in point the IP thread that was derailed because of the constant "show that IP works in a fight" when it was stated that IP skill has nothing directly to do with fighting skill.

That is like criticizing HIIT or strength training because it doesn't directly develop on fighting skill.

Honestly though Ronin the ones who cry post video are the same ones who would never post a video themselves because they know they would be laughed off the forum. Either that or they are hiding their true selves and just continue to poke and prod and p**iss people off to get a rise. I personally wish more people would post vids of themselves training or doing whatever the discussion is. I remember posting mine in bag work and not what other member posted any of theirs.:confused:

But that's not my concern so much as if you start blasting people to post a vid, do it yourself and set an example. Tell them to put up or shut up. I know it's not going to work, but in all honesty why can't we ask to see who the big mouths are and if they have the adequate skill to critisize someone and/or their training methods? It's a double edged sword, my friend.;)

[David Jamieson]

Everyone has an agenda, but the real humor is why anyone would care. Has there really been anyone that completely changed what they do because someone on a Kung Fu forum told them they suck and should do something differently?

I'm sure there has been, but no one would ever admit to it. You have to take things with a sense of humor and not so serious to really get anything out of this or any other public forum. Hell, when the Bullshido dingleberries came over for the April Fools prank they spent a lot of time and effort on fooling a whole 3 people. Was it worth it? I don't know, I guess if it gave them a laugh it did.

I train how I train and do what I do because of my experiences in real life and in training in different areas in real life, not what big bad chest puffer forum member tells me to. There are several members on here I like and enjoy their insight, there are others I wouldn't p**iss on if they were on fire. But someone changing their viewpoints because you hassle them over the net is beyond idiotic in it's concept.:rolleyes:

I've physically met people from a few forums and exchanged with them and CHANGED what I do because of it.

That is the whole thing about interchange/exchange/Grow works.
Forum is like a door, meeting people in reality from it is walking through the door, learning from that is adding more stones and mortar to the temple that is you. :)

[Lucas]

I tend to agree with SR. There is ignoring the trolls, but only so far because what happens is they don't only derail the thread, but more importantly, they tend to derail people who would otherwise be posting information pertinent to the topic at hand. Instead ww find thesepeople responding to thetrolls.which can suck for someone trying to pick up some thing.

if the trolls could just cut back some...like maybe get a woman or something so the trolling time is less.

Lets start a troll dating service.

Is there a way to simply lock someone out of a particular thread?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I've physically met people from a few forums and exchanged with them and CHANGED what I do because of it.

That is the whole thing about interchange/exchange/Grow works.
Forum is like a door, meeting people in reality from it is walking through the door, learning from that is adding more stones and mortar to the temple that is you. :)

You missed my point though, Dave. You met with them in REAL LIFE, their advice over the internet did not change you, they did in a real context. That is the point I'm trying to make.

[bawang]

david ross completely changed my view of martial arts and i never met him in person

[sanjuro_ronin]

Honestly though Ronin the ones who cry post video are the same ones who would never post a video themselves because they know they would be laughed off the forum. Either that or they are hiding their true selves and just continue to poke and prod and p**iss people off to get a rise. I personally wish more people would post vids of themselves training or doing whatever the discussion is. I remember posting mine in bag work and not what other member posted any of theirs.:confused:

But that's not my concern so much as if you start blasting people to post a vid, do it yourself and set an example. Tell them to put up or shut up. I know it's not going to work, but in all honesty why can't we ask to see who the big mouths are and if they have the adequate skill to critisize someone and/or their training methods? It's a double edged sword, my friend.;)

A valid point, I always say to people that say breaking stiff is a trick and anyone can do it, when will we see YOUR videos?
We never do.

That said though we must realise that CONTEXT doesn't always demand the video that something things they should see.
Using the IP as an example.
A video of me KO'ing people doesn't prove that IP works, I KO'd lots of people before I did IP , some of them even deserved it :D.
The point is that, far too often, the "show me video" thing is not so much show me evidence of what you say, as much as it is, show me evidence that you can fight.

[lkfmdc]

I like silly threads as much as the next guy, but the fact is, we get far too many decent threads derailed because of "trolls" that don't have the experience in the subject matter BUT still deem it appropriate to continue to derail the thread even after thei view has been shown to be irrelevant.



I agree and also disagree. Well, better put, this is the REAL issue as I see it

Read Brian Kennedy's books. Read the intro to "Chin Na" that was recently released. Listen the two stories that were posted earlier in this very thread

Questioning the effectiveness of TCMA training methods
Questioning the real origins of TCMA
Questioning the purpose to TCMA

All this stuff not only has a LONG History, I would also argue it is important and significant to keep discussing it

What you get here, what motivates a lot of the trolls, is a desire to kill this discussion.

If you don't jump 110% on the TCMA fan wagon, you must be stupid, you don't know the real stuff, you're bald, you're fat, I heard a rumor about you, I heard a rumor about your sifu, blah blah meaningless ranting

Look, I started doing TCMA as a kid, I did it for like three decades.
I have studied with some very well respected sifu
I have studied with some very closed door sifu
I have a masters' degree in Chinese history
I am a published author on the subject (journal articles)
I speak a few dialects and have basic literacy

I welcome anyone, everyone, and their cat, to refute anything I post. I have certainly created a great number of threads that are very substantial not only in their premise but in the information provided.

But the reality is, yes, call me an elitist and a snob, but trolling is what people who can't keep up with the discussion do to try and derail it and distract people from the real issues

If Gene ever wants to ban me, it's certainly within his power and right, but at least some will know that if I get banned its a victory for trolling, ie if you don't like what someone says all you have to do is disrupt the forum enough that daddy Gene only wants quiet....

So, again, the "challenge" is, if you disagree with what I say put together a logic counter argument backed by EVIDENCE...

[bawang]

have you ever thought of teaching kung fu again, maybe somewhere balanced between traditional and modern

after your generation there is no more old school guys, its finished. i think you should help restore kung fu. you have the money and resources and reputation

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

banging on his drum again...

[lkfmdc]

have you ever thought of teaching kung fu again



I always respond to this the same way, I've raised the same question MANY TIMES, and yet I don't seem to remember anyone every really trying to answer it, in fact, it's a GREAT example of how trolling derails discussion here

Who says I am not teaching "kung fu"?

[bawang]

im saying what if you can combine the traditional aspects with the modern. thais play traditional music in their fights and have pre fight dance.

[Lucas]

I am of the mind Ross is actually teaching people what works, I including things he learned from CMA. He just isn't advertising as such.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree and also disagree. Well, better put, this is the REAL issue as I see it

Read Brian Kennedy's books. Read the intro to "Chin Na" that was recently released. Listen the two stories that were posted earlier in this very thread

Questioning the effectiveness of TCMA training methods
Questioning the real origins of TCMA
Questioning the purpose to TCMA

All this stuff not only has a LONG History, I would also argue it is important and significant to keep discussing it

What you get here, what motivates a lot of the trolls, is a desire to kill this discussion.

If you don't jump 110% on the TCMA fan wagon, you must be stupid, you don't know the real stuff, you're bald, you're fat, I heard a rumor about you, I heard a rumor about your sifu, blah blah meaningless ranting

Look, I started doing TCMA as a kid, I did it for like three decades.
I have studied with some very well respected sifu
I have studied with some very closed door sifu
I have a masters' degree in Chinese history
I am a published author on the subject (journal articles)
I speak a few dialects and have basic literacy

I welcome anyone, everyone, and their cat, to refute anything I post. I have certainly created a great number of threads that are very substantial not only in their premise but in the information provided.

But the reality is, yes, call me an elitist and a snob, but trolling is what people who can't keep up with the discussion do to try and derail it and distract people from the real issues

If Gene ever wants to ban me, it's certainly within his power and right, but at least some will know that if I get banned its a victory for trolling, ie if you don't like what someone says all you have to do is disrupt the forum enough that daddy Gene only wants quiet....

So, again, the "challenge" is, if you disagree with what I say put together a logic counter argument backed by EVIDENCE...

I agree and believe that Brian's books are a MUST read for anyone in TCMA.
That said, my point in regards to videos is that, asking for a video of ones fighting ability in a thread that is NOT about fighting ability is like asking someone how much they bench press and demand video proof, in a thread about skipping rope.

[bawang]

I am of the mind Ross is actually teaching people what works, I including things he learned from CMA. He just isn't advertising as such.

that doesnt change poeples percpetion of kung fu, and it doesnt challenge the position of the corrupt

[Lucas]

that doesnt change poeples percpetion of kung fu, and it doesnt challenge the position of the corrupt

ur right it doesn't. But is that a concern of ross's ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am of the mind Ross is actually teaching people what works, I including things he learned from CMA. He just isn't advertising as such.

I think in that way Ross and I are on the same page:
Teach what people WANT to learn.
Granted I don't teach or coach anymore but the point is that, IF someone wants to learn TCMA then I am sure Dave will teach them, IF it is worth his time.
I know that the few people that have asked me to teach them TCMA, have NOT been worth my time and I have sent them to local TCMA schools because, deep down, that is they type of TCMA they want to learn.

[bawang]

ur right it doesn't. But is that a concern of ross's ?

its a concern of mine


I know that the few people that have asked me to teach them TCMA, have NOT been worth my time and I have sent them to local TCMA schools because, deep down, that is they type of TCMA they want to learn.

its possible to change people. my first teacher slowly weaned me off it when i was a kid obsessed with jet li movies. it takes time

[lkfmdc]

RE Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5wzaDgYQZA&feature=related

This is very famous footage. This is Mike Patterson's team. They are the most successful Kuo Shu Lei Tai team EVER.



This short video of just less than 10 minutes in length attempts to capture the essence of what the Kuoshu full contact fighting contests were in the 1990's and to then portray the efforts of Mike Patterson's Internal Martial Arts teams to utilize true Hsing I (xingyi), Pa Kua (bagua) and Tai Chi (taiji) principles within the context of those contests.


According to Shihfu Patterson, these guys are trained in classical internal arts and what is shown in the video IS classical internal technique for fighting

Does anything in that video , I mean the techniques used there, look fundamentally different than San Da footage? Or even MMA cage fighting?

And does it, pardon the language, look like a "shaw brothers'" movie?

[V.O.R.]

that doesnt change poeples percpetion of kung fu, and it doesnt challenge the position of the corrupt

Whoa, really? This sounds like Mandarins Vs Canto's or Good Vs. Evil.

Is the Elitist mindset in kung fu any better than the "corrupt" & "the questionable"??? In my opinion, elitists are equal to the devil.

[lkfmdc]

I know that the few people that have asked me to teach them TCMA, have NOT been worth my time and I have sent them to local TCMA schools because, deep down, that is they type of TCMA they want to learn.

"the type"? Are there really different "types" of TCMA?

We're jumping into the deep end of the pool (again) - and this is usually when the trolls show up to derail

that IS the point, isn't it?

[bawang]

Whoa, really? This sounds like Mandarins Vs Canto's or Good Vs. Evil.

Is the Elitist mindset in kung fu any better than the "corrupt" & "the questionable"??? In my opinion, elitists are equal to the devil.

if you are not a fraud and dont exploit asian culture you are not elitist, you are normal

[sanjuro_ronin]

its a concern of mine


its possible to change people. my first teacher slowly weaned me off it when i was a kid obsessed with jet li movies. it takes time

You know me, you know my kung fu, it is simple, direct, brutal even and not flowery.
It involves sweating, A LOT OF IT, strength training and lots of pain.
People looking for a TCMA are NOT looking for that.
I taught kung fu for a limited time at a local club, it wasn't highly publicised or what not, but do you knwo what types ended up in my class?
The ones that did MMA and MT.
The ones that started to learn "kung fu", left because it wasn't "kung fu".

[bawang]

i know man and i deeply respec u for that. but tahts not enough to turn the tide of the cultural struggle. people like you need to advertise and be vocal and speak out. otherwise what you do will be in vain

[lkfmdc]

You know me, you know my kung fu, it is simple, direct, brutal even and not flowery.
It involves sweating, A LOT OF IT, strength training and lots of pain.
People looking for a TCMA are NOT looking for that.
I taught kung fu for a limited time at a local club, it wasn't highly publicised or what not, but do you knwo what types ended up in my class?
The ones that did MMA and MT.
The ones that started to learn "kung fu", left because it wasn't "kung fu".

This is why "kung fu" is dead

[David Jamieson]

People who tell me that bagwork, mittwork and vigorous calisthenics have nothing to do with Kung Fu development make me laugh.

I have actually had people approach me while doing bag work in a gym and asking me how Long I've been boxing. I tell them I haven't boxed in years, I am maintaining my Kung Fu.

responses are:

"that's not kung fu is it?"

or

"ha, that's pretty funny!"

or

"power ranger styles yeah"

People who don't do Kung Fu don't really understand what it is. Many people who are active members in clubs...also don't understand what it is. But at least they will come to understand faster than judgmental non practitioners.

[ShortBridge]

You know me, you know my kung fu, it is simple, direct, brutal even and not flowery.
It involves sweating, A LOT OF IT, strength training and lots of pain.
People looking for a TCMA are NOT looking for that...

Not holistically true. I guess it depends on your tradition.

[bawang]

This is why "kung fu" is dead

do you want it to be dead. if yes, why talk about it. if no, what do you plan to do about it.

[taai gihk yahn]

I always respond to this the same way, I've raised the same question MANY TIMES, and yet I don't seem to remember anyone every really trying to answer it, in fact, it's a GREAT example of how trolling derails discussion here

Who says I am not teaching "kung fu"?


depends how you define Kung-Fu....


I cut the quote from TT from another thread (the one on the sad Tiger Crane form);

but i think this is what it comes down to, really; how does one define "kung fu"? in fact, CAN one definitively do so? herein lies the problem, because there is no standard definition for it; also, there is a difference btw TCMA and kung fu, because the former is a socio/cultural based definition, the latter is a methodological one; each is fraught with inconsistencies, and you can have one without the other - many would argue that wushu is a TCMA, but that it is NOT kung fu;

so when people accuse Dave of being a sell-out, I laugh, because they think what they do is so sacrosanct? that somehow Dave's actions has sullied thousands of years of chicanery, intentional watering-down / witholding of teachings, revisionism and outright fabrication? what has he "sold out"? he is honest about what he does, how he does it, where it came from; he delivers the product that he advertises and he makes a good living; he does NOT ride on the coatails of CTS, because no where does he mention him (at the same time, he does have an "altar" of sorts in his school, so he is not forgotten; actually, I luv this last bit: if you use your sifu's name to promote yourself, you are riding on his coatails; if you don't mention him, and do your own thing on it's own merits, you have disowned and dishonored him - lol, frickin TMA-ists...)

this whole argument is ridiculous - and at this point, doesn't matter; there has been enough published by reputable scholars to debunk the tired out TCMA myths that many still perpetuate; there has been enough "research" on hand-to-hand combatives in the modern age to clearly delineate what sort of approaches, including techniques and training methodologies, are the most applicable in terms of consistently generating desired results; at the same time, if people want to practice their respective arts in a "traditional" manner, hey, that's their purvue, but the question is, are they doing so out of free choice based on awareness of current understanding, or are they burying their heads in the proverbial sand?

the conversation needs to evolve...

[bawang]

he left because he got pushed out by petty chinatown politics.

im saying maybe one day you can confront and destroy it, tear it all down and rebuild.

if you leave it be the corruption is not gonna go away. if you avoid it then it won.

im not saying right now, but maybe one day.

[David Jamieson]

In the end, it's all good. Less is more.
Quality, not quantity.

I'll go out on a limb and say that of those mma schools that teach the hardcore for realz sport fighting systems of the universe™ could have 200 students and maybe. MAYBE 12 of them will be involved in amateur fights and even less in pursed fights.

In Kung Fu schools, out of 200 students, we are often lucky to find 1 or 2 who would actual;ly consider testing their stuff in a ring against an unknown beyond weight/height/reach etc. LUCKY!

And that is why Kung Fu is struggling and at the same time. NOT struggling.


there will always be people who have Kung Fu, even when it can''t be found in schools that claim to teach it! :p

You don't find good boxing instruction inside of a typical gym wth multi course format either. Quite often it's like an IRL version of experts village. Seriously!

But if you go to an exclusive boxing hole in the wall, hey wait, there's a few formidable guys in there!

Also Kung Fu venues MUST get rid of old puss man face saving games and get on with the bloodletting.

Separate the kids and women out as well. You can have group focus classes, but for the fighting arts there has to be gender segregation and adults training with children is a waste of time for the adult. Don't do that to adult students.

Kids classes should be 100% separate. Women's classes for fighting should be separate. Group classes should be just exercise.

etc etc. there are a lot of problems with formats to deliver the knowledge, shortcuts and time wasting are huge problems. and this is why for 10 years, it's been invite only private training.

[Razaunida]

word.


I find that the best kung fu students are either snowboarders or those who have done wrestling or muay thai.


Those that did wushu, I beat with my fists everyday until they leave or change their mentality.

I don't use the term "Kung fu" I call it Chinese Martial Arts. It attracts a less nerdy crowd. Less nerdy correlates with better hand eye coordination, ability to work hard and raise the overall level of athleticism.

[lkfmdc]

he left because he got pushed out by petty chinatown politics.


Absolutely NOT TRUE

We left Chinatown because we didn't want to be in a slum, were tired of the BS politics and also were tired to the gang nonsense

We were not the first nor the last to realize that trying to pretend you are in Guangzhou by staying in a tenement in Chinatown made no sense

[bawang]

sorry man i dont know much about it, i just assumed from reading some of your posts.

im just saying think about it. if you spent a big part of your life doing something you liked, why abandon it because someone else ruin it.

[lkfmdc]

im just saying think about it. if you spent a big part of your life doing something you liked, why abandon it



in my mind I haven't

[bawang]

if those people drove you to disassociate yourself from chinese martial arts, i think they won.

im just saying think about it

[taai gihk yahn]

he left because he got pushed out by petty chinatown politics.
no, it was bec he was tired of all the silliness; similarly, my current sifu did the same thing: he saw the BS from the get go and established his school in another part of NYC; he is teaching more "classically" than 99.9% of what is out there, but he is virtually unknown within the TCMA community;


im saying maybe one day you can confront and destroy it, tear it all down and rebuild.

if you leave it be the corruption is not gonna go away. if you avoid it then it won.

im not saying right now, but maybe one day.

it's a pipe dream; that is because "corruption" is a relative concept - one man's purity is another's corruption; you can't make sweeping changes because it will always erode itself by the very self-nature of that change (this is Taoism 101 man, srsly); whatever ideal you adhere to, contains the seeds of its own destruction; if things are as such, then not only is there no such thing as purity, there is no such thing as corruption either!

this is why, I think, the conversation needs to change - away from what is right and wrong, what is traditional and what is not, but rather what is the nature of practice as such? whether for fighting or health (or both), what "matters" is the nature of one's relationship to that practice - only in this way can one be free, free from preconception, from relativistic criteria; anything else is just delusional...

[Razaunida]

hmm...that makes sense. Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..>Chairmen Mao did that....lots of advancement, but not all for the best. Tai Gigh is right. What matters is the results from the practice. External traditions can be created anytime, but efficacy is what is the most valuable.

[bawang]

this is why, I think, the conversation needs to change - away from what is right and wrong, what is traditional and what is not, but rather what is the nature of practice as such? whether for fighting or health (or both), what "matters" is the nature of one's relationship to that practice - only in this way can one be free, free from preconception, from relativistic criteria; anything else is just delusional...


for you when you walk out the school door you are a normal white man again. for me the thought of them stays with me. for me its personal.

it's a pipe dream; that is because "corruption" is a relative concept -

corruption within chiense martial arts is not relative, its clearly stated in many documents what is wrong and what is right, what is corruption and degredation.

[lkfmdc]

Did the Yang family "sell out"? was what they were doing "fake"?

Or did they just realize that the people around them wanted a cool esoteric exercise, had no interest in real fighting and were willing to pay for the fantasy?

Tons of people play raquet ball, I have no problem with them, they do it for fun and exercise. If someone told me that due to their raquet ball training, they'd be deadly with a giant axe on a medieval battlefield, I'd suggest to them they are insane

I have NO problem in the least with contemporary wushu, it is what it is and it is honest about what it is. And "strangely" :rolleyes: those guys think of themselves as athletes and don't think of themselves as deadly warriors

[Razaunida]

Yang family sold out, but if they hadn't only 2 or 3 people in the world would be practicing Chen village boxing. Because they sold out that number is much higher.

I really think you should sell out a bit, especially with the Tibetan stuff, people would eat that up.

[bawang]

Did the Yang family "sell out"? was what they were doing "fake"?

Or did they just realize that the people around them wanted a cool esoteric exercise, had no interest in real fighting and were willing to pay for the fantasy?


yang didnt understand the repercussions of his actions, he didnt know how he would be important in the future. he didnt know the very reality of the old chinese world would be destroyed

modern teachers are fully aware of what they are doing

[taai gihk yahn]

for you when you walk out the school door you are a normal white man again. for me the thought of them stays with me. for me its personal.

it's true I am a "white man" (normal? well, that's up to debate...);

as far as what stays with you, because of your cultural heritage, this is your delusional attachment to the artificial, relativistic projection of ethnicity; while this produces very strong emotional feelings, it is still illusory, and living up to the demands it generates creates suffering; it's not easy to let go of these things though: for example, I will share with you something that was said to me once by the Abbot of Chuang Yen monastery during private "Ch'an" interview: I am adopted; I had at that time recently tracked down my biological mother; initially, we had an amicable relationship, but over time, it just didn't take - no conflict, just there was nothing really there to hold us together beyond the initial discovery period; as such, I did not feel the desire to continue maintaining communication with her, but what I was not clear was whether my motivation was being colored by a desire to "get back" at her (she "abandons" me, so I do so in turn) - i wanted to be very clear that I was seeing things as such, not projecting onto them; so after listening to my dilemma, he looks me squarely in the eyes and says "you have no father and mother";

do you get it?

[bawang]

for you to step away from the public image chinese martial arts is exactly what those people want, because they were intimidated by you.

im not saying right now, but in the future, think about it

[Razaunida]

It was already pretty antiquated....guns.


He knew what he was doing just like people do today..making bank.


I was taught to essentially run two schools...a public and indoor school. Many traditional schools are like this. The losers pay the bills and get flowery stuff that makes them feel cool and you beat the ****e out of the disciples who can really tear people up.

What is new with Yang? It went from a private family style to a public style.

[bawang]

as far as what stays with you, because of your cultural heritage, this is your delusional attachment to the artificial, relativistic projection of ethnicity;
do you get it?

last week someone just tried to back his car onto me when i tried to cross the street, while staring at me. one time a guy was biking past me and told me to get back on the boat.

last month in an elevator a kid said "daddy, theres too many chinamen around here", his dad said "yep" and i just stared at the floor.

so no, i dont get it.

[Razaunida]

last week someone just tried to back his car onto me when i tried to cross the street, while staring at me. one time a guy was biking past me and told me to get back on the boat.

when i was a kid i tried to help an old lady pick up her fallen groceries and she started beating me with her purse.

last month in an elevator a kid said "daddy, theres too many chinamen around here", his dad said "yep" and i just stared at the floor.

so no, i dont get it.

are you ugly?

[lkfmdc]

There was a time when we treated disease with leeches

there was a time when we had no indoor plumbing

there was a time when due to lack of medical attention, people routinely died around late 40's

That world is dead and gone, do we morn it and try to recreate it?

[taai gihk yahn]

Yang family sold out, but if they hadn't only 2 or 3 people in the world would be practicing Chen village boxing. Because they sold out that number is much higher.

I really think you should sell out a bit, especially with the Tibetan stuff, people would eat that up.
people would; my sifu teaches some Tibetan "yoga" that he learned and it's good stuff - in fact, it was an independent verification of what CTS taught us...

in fact, I have taken CTS's ling gong stuff and reorganized it in a way that would make it more learnable / teachable; so it's all set to be "sold out"; but no one has taken me up on it yet...

[David Jamieson]

last week someone just tried to back his car onto me when i tried to cross the street, while staring at me. one time a guy was biking past me and told me to get back on the boat.

last month in an elevator a kid said "daddy, theres too many chinamen around here", his dad said "yep" and i just stared at the floor.

so no, i dont get it.

You don't get racism?
I get racism.

I get it when some group of old hen men smoking too much on the corner selling cabbages and coconuts calls me a gwai lo!

A gwai lo in my own country! :rolleyes:

I get it when some traditional teacher tells me I don't know "real" kung fu because I'm not Chinese.

I get racism. It comes from all angles. It's not your unique burden, everybody can carry that bag of crap if they want to.

I just walk on. lol

[bawang]

old androgynous chinamen calling gwai lo is comical and pathetic. its not the same when people in power do it.
you can walk on out of chinatown in five minutes. i walk on and it doesnt end.

[David Jamieson]

old androgynous chinamen calling gwai lo is comical and pathetic. its not the same when people in power do it.

perspective is all it is man.

[Razaunida]

I get the racism Bawang, both in the US and when I visit relatives in China. It wears on you.

You want to see Chinese culture respected and yet what Tai Gihk said is also true, losing attachment to form is a way of respecting Chinese tradition.

Another side of me believes it is important to burn money for martial anscestors.

[taai gihk yahn]

last week someone just tried to back his car onto me when i tried to cross the street, while staring at me. one time a guy was biking past me and told me to get back on the boat.

last month in an elevator a kid said "daddy, theres too many chinamen around here", his dad said "yep" and i just stared at the floor.

so no, i dont get it.

it's not quite what I was talking about, in terms of your own attachments to cultural identity driving you; but in regards to the ethnic prejudice you experience, that is other people's delusion driving their habitual neurotic behavior; nothing much you can do about changing that, unfortunately - they need to come to an awareness of their own perceptual bias, and most never will;

my "point" was that by framing my dilemma in terms of my distinctions between "mother / not mother", I was operating out of the false assumption of reactivity towards my projection of "mother" , which is an arbitrary delineation when seen in the larger context of things such as they are; similarly, your attachment to the arbitrary notion of cultural / ethnic tradition is what drives you (you may or may not see this as such, of course, and it is not my desire to insult you, so please do not take offense);

and just because something is written down, doesn't make it absolute, even if it's been around for 10,000 years - this is just repetition, not authentication

but dude, all this stuffs I'm talking about, it's from YOUR cultural heritage, taught to me by a Chinese man; isn't that ironic?!?

[bawang]

my point is everybody complains but ross actually has the money and resources and connections to make a difference in chinese martial arts. im saying think about it man. lets say in 10 years. what if, why not

[taai gihk yahn]

I get the racism Bawang, both in the US and when I visit relatives in China. It wears on you.

You want to see Chinese culture respected and yet what Tai Gihk said is also true, losing attachment to form is a way of respecting Chinese tradition.

Another side of me believes it is important to burn money for martial anscestors.

given your sudden shift away from bat-shiit crazy trolling towards a more reasonable stance, I can assume that either you've started taking your meds again or someone has hacked your account...

[lkfmdc]

my point is everybody complains but ross actually has the money and resources and connections to make a difference in chinese martial arts. im saying think about it man

1. no, no one can make a difference in "chinese martial ats"

and

2. even assuming I could, why would I want to?

[bawang]

2. even assuming I could, why would I want to?
out of love and respect for chinese martial arts and chinese culture

[V.O.R.]

The REAL problem too many Hak Gwai look down on Chinese and feel they can better the chinamens art better than they can.

[taai gihk yahn]

The REAL problem too many Hak Gwai look down on Chinese and feel they can better the chinamens art better than they can.

um, you do know what "hak gwai" refers to, right? and that it's not really a nice thing to say at all...

[David Jamieson]

The REAL problem too many Hak Gwai look down on Chinese and feel they can better the chinamens art better than they can.

lol, so the problem is Black people?

yeah, this is gonna go well....

...step!

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: TCMA and certain behaviour.
When I started HK a few years ago with my current Sifu, it was as a private student.
The "ba si" ceremony was mentioned, by me, and he said:
"I know that you are a Christian and from my nephew I understand that you are a good person and I recall from when we first met, many years ago, that you were young and brash but always good and never got yourself into too much trouble".
He continued:
" If you want to, we can discuss it, but I don't think it's for you".
I voiced my concerns about how I would be treated and looked upon by the other students and he said, " Since you cna kick their ass, why do you care?".
After laughing WITH him, I explained my feelings and we agreed that, indeed, it wasn't for me but that Me and his students woudl train and MA brothers if not "hung brothers".
He never kept anything from me.
His brother, the SPM guy, was even more liberal, focusing only on how much I could give to the training, as well as take from it.

The point being that, not everyone that is old school is totally old school ( They were from Macao so maybe that mattered).

[bawang]

its not really about authentic or old school, its about dignity man. the dignity is gone.

[V.O.R.]

The REAL problem too many Hak Gwai and [B]Bak GwaIi/B] look down on Chinese and feel they can better the chinamens art better than they can.

tis' ohso true. Bareeve it!

[Razaunida]

in all fairness Bawang...so can you.


Ross is correct in that he teaches foundation as the most important aspect. That is a great way to have a school, but his teacher had much more to offer and so does he, but it has to come out of that foundation. There are some things that seem stupid on a one on one encounter which make perfect sense when fighting many people.

[David Jamieson]

its not really about authentic or old school, its about dignity man. the dignity is gone.

Depends where you go.

Your own dignity need never be lost for instance.

an object has no dignity. It's a thing. It is people who embody something that make that something what it is.

The mindset to succeed through difficult effort is what is lacking in my observation.

Especially here. I could give a few examples of how the "take a pill" thinking in western society has blossomed into willful ignorance about how to maintain one's body.

Look at all the stupid and useless diet books and the lies they promise. All the ******* machines that'll rip your abs, and all the other target marketed nonsense aimed directly at dummies and the unsuspecting.

There really is a mentality of "I tried it, but I wasn't really good right away, so I decided it wasn't for me".

Kung Fu isn't crumbling, but western civilization sure is.

[taai gihk yahn]

RE: TCMA and certain behaviour.
When I started HK a few years ago with my current Sifu, it was as a private student.
The "ba si" ceremony was mentioned, by me, and he said:
"I know that you are a Christian and from my nephew I understand that you are a good person and I recall from when we first met, many years ago, that you were young and brash but always good and never got yourself into too much trouble".
He continued:
" If you want to, we can discuss it, but I don't think it's for you".
I voiced my concerns about how I would be treated and looked upon by the other students and he said, " Since you cna kick their ass, why do you care?".
After laughing WITH him, I explained my feelings and we agreed that, indeed, it wasn't for me but that Me and his students woudl train and MA brothers if not "hung brothers".
He never kept anything from me.
His brother, the SPM guy, was even more liberal, focusing only on how much I could give to the training, as well as take from it.

The point being that, not everyone that is old school is totally old school ( They were from Macao so maybe that mattered).

of course you know, this was his way of keeping you "out the door", so he coud keep the "true" teachings from you, right? :rolleyes:

with my sifu it was the same way - he has eschewed the "traditional " bai see convention for something else, in terms of his relationship with his students; it's not neat and defined, but it allows for a dynamic evolution over time, in terms of students' comings and goings; as a Taoist, I think he appreciates this much more than superimposing a cultural artifact onto his students, and it actually is very freeing;

[bawang]

in all fairness Bawang...so can you.


Ross is correct in that he teaches foundation as the most important aspect. That is a great way to have a school, but his teacher had much more to offer and so does he, but it has to come out of that foundation. There are some things that seem stupid on a one on one encounter which make perfect sense when fighting many people.

im training hard and im trying to contact people in my hometown. but ross has decades of experience and connectinos and money. he can do way more than i can.

[sanjuro_ronin]

its not really about authentic or old school, its about dignity man. the dignity is gone.

Perhaps.
I just know that, as the years go by, the less I want to do with the whole "TCMA" stygma.
I am not chinese, never will be, nor do I want to be.
I don't care about the clothes or traditions that much, I am a simple guy when it cames to MA. You won't see me part of a lion dance or doing a demo or part of a "sect", it is not me and never will be.
And personally I think that those are the things that give TCMA a "bad name" and make to many round eye think that are "chinese".

[taai gihk yahn]

The REAL problem too many Hak Gwai and [B]Bak GwaIi/B] look down on Chinese and feel they can better the chinamens art better than they can.

tis' ohso true. Bareeve it!

ok, so you've moved from stupid and racist to stupid and more racist; yep, like what you did there :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course you know, this was his way of keeping you "out the door", so he coud keep the "true" teachings from you, right? :rolleyes:

with my sifu it was the same way - he has eschewed the "traditional " bai see convention for something else, in terms of his relationship with his students; it's not neat and defined, but it allows for a dynamic evolution over time, in terms of students' comings and goings; as a Taoist, I think he appreciates this much more than superimposing a cultural artifact onto his students, and it actually is very freeing;

Even if that were true, keeping the true teachings away ( I know you were kidding by the way), who's at the lost?
I do my best, give my all, including helping my fellow students in making themselves better (sometimes by beating on their asses), I do my best for them ( Both Sifu's) and if that is not enough, then so be it.

[V.O.R.]

ok, so you've moved from stupid and racist to stupid and more racist; yep, like what you did there

Oh you silly man. tis really not that bad. I'm completely confident you'll move on from this.

[taai gihk yahn]

Even if that were true, keeping the true teachings away ( I know you were kidding by the way), who's at the lost?
I do my best, give my all, including helping my fellow students in making themselves better (sometimes by beating on their asses), I do my best for them ( Both Sifu's) and if that is not enough, then so be it.

of course; but you know, no matter what, you can never be certain that he is not holding that last little bit of "secret" info back from you...and this little doubt will gnaw and gnaw at you until you break down and go seek out the "teacher-in-the-jungle" ;)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The sad part is many of us have come to the realization that we don't care how Kung Fu is perceived anymore. We train, we do as we do, and we just don't give a sh**it. Because the well has been poisoned one too many times. This is absolutely the wrong attitude but it is what it is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course; but you know, no matter what, you can never be certain that he is not holding that last little bit of "secret" info back from you...and this little doubt will gnaw and gnaw at you until you break down and go seek out the "teacher-in-the-jungle" ;)

STOP THAT !!!
LMAO !!

One of the good things about having been around the block is that you KNOW, there are NO secrets.

[ShortBridge]

Going to give the forums a try with a healthy ignore list activated. See if it works a little better that way.

[Dragonzbane76]

probably your best bet.

[bawang]

this song is dedicated to you mighty david ross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJH82SPhiZM

you walk away from kung fu, but one day you come back i have faith

[V.O.R.]

walked away from your MOM
just like your mom that song has no soul at all.

got nothing to say now cause you are a huge sissy boy.

Frank, don't let Bawang and the other two jokers get under your skin.

It's clear they have no honour. Its clear that razanunida, bawang and Ross are just a bunch a whiney kids with illusions of elitenicity. personally i think they are the same person. what a shame.

[taai gihk yahn]

Ross (is) just...a whiney (kid) with illusions of elitenicity. what a shame.

you should speak more respectfully of your Si Bahk!

[Scott R. Brown]

Frank, don't let Bawang and the other two jokers get under your skin.

It's clear they have no honour. Its clear that razanunida, bawang and Ross are just a bunch a whiney kids with illusions of elitenicity. personally i think they are the same person. what a shame.

Once again, and just how is your comment any different than anything they have said?

They are children for voicing their unpopular opinions, or perhaps stating opinions that are unpopularly voiced, but your opinions are better stated or perhaps more true?

Isn't that just your opinion, which makes your opinions just as elitnoquacious as theirs?

Sour puss!:p

Step

[bawang]

no one can defecate the mighty david ross

he is champion

[V.O.R.]

Once again, and just how is your comment any different than anything they have said?


you're right. i had to sleep on it and put myself in the corner. I was caught up in the flow of hatred and swept away like a babe on a leaf.


no one can defecate the mighty david ross

he is champion

Yes indeed, David Ross is the Defacate Champion. a true defecawarrior.

[bawang]

you are voice of gay

[taai gihk yahn]

you're right. i had to sleep on it and put myself in the corner. I was caught up in the flow of hatred and swept away like a babe on a leaf.

Yes indeed, David Ross is the Defacate Champion. a true defecawarrior.

again, you disrespect your Si Bahk; is this how you embody and uphold the tradition of your style and art?

[Scott R. Brown]

you're right. i had to sleep on it and put myself in the corner. I was caught up in the flow of hatred and swept away like a babe on a leaf.

Wasn't there supposed be be some self-flagellation in there somewhere, or would that be too enjoyable?:eek:

[V.O.R.]

Im a no flagellate and tell kind of Flagellator.

[Scott R. Brown]

Im a no flagellate and tell kind of Flagellator.

I think that is a bomb or something! Quick, throw it in the trough!

......or did I dream it?:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

Im a no flagellate and tell kind of Flagellator.

you study in a traditional school, with a traditional Sifu; to bad-mouth your Si Bahk disrespects your school, your Sifu and your Sigung, and is shameful; if you cannot uphold the precepts of "mo duk", you had best hold your tongue...

[lkfmdc]

you study in a traditional school, with a traditional Sifu;



NO HE DOESN'T and you know it LOL

[V.O.R.]

Si Bak Gwai? Have ya ever watched BULLETPROOF MONK? I learned my kung fooey from watching Chop Suey.

[lkfmdc]

I learned my kung fooey from Chop Suey.

oh the irony :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Si Bak Gwai? Have ya ever watched BULLETPROOF MONK? I learned my kung fooey from watching Chop Suey.

your Sifu is a todai of Sigung Chan; your Si Bahk is his senior in the tradition; say whatever you want, if you show disrespect to your seniors, regardless of what might have transpired between them, you are acting shamefully according to the tenets of "mo duk"; is that what you are intending to do?

[taai gihk yahn]

NO HE DOESN'T and you know it LOL

regardless of your opinion of his school / sifu, it stands to reason that HE is of the belief that his school is traditional; and as such, certain conventions go along with that; however, his behavior is contradictory to that which would be expected of a student in that sort of school; it seems that he wants to have it both ways: he wants to fly the flag of "tradition: when it is convenient, but as soon as that tradition is in conflict with his personal desire to talk shiite about you, he puts it aside; if he is doing this knowingly, this makes him a hypocrite and an asz; if he is unable to see that, it makes him an idiot; the ONLY honorable, "traditional" option he has is to apologize for disrespecting his gung fu elder; in the old days, he would also get his asz whipped by his teacher for bringing shame to the school by his actions;

[bawang]

is he the green penus temple choy lee fut

[Scott R. Brown]

...... the ONLY honorable, "traditional" option he has is to apologize for disrespecting his gung fu elder; in the old days, he would also get his asz whipped by his teacher for bringing shame to the school by his actions;

How about seppuku?

Oh wait......wrong tradition.......unfortunately!

I was confusing "city wok" and "city sushi"!

[David Jamieson]

is he the green penus temple choy lee fut

http://marc.merlins.org/perso/bm/2006/Pix/3345_Day.jpg