Jow for iron palm conditioning- needed, waste of time, or counterproductive?

[faxiapreta]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am 66 years old, and for most of my life I have been exposed to Chinese Medicine in one form or another. I have found accupuncture and accupressure to work in many cases. Sometimes immediately, and sometimes over time. The one thing that I have always been skeptical of has been jow. I do not believe anything can prevent you from bruising or barking the skin from your hands if you strike hard or rough surfaces. It is not really necessary to abuse the hands to make them into strong weapons. I have on several occasions told how I trained my hands for strong and hard strikes, and the only thing I used was something called Corn Husker's Lotion. It is a glycerin based lotion that will indeed make large callouses form at the point of impact. I can not say what it does to the bones, but I know that my hands can cause injury, and I have never abused them to that extent.

[TenTigers]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?
it was dangerous and stupid. According to my Sifu, that formula is used as a sort of "tempering" agent, used in advanced stages, after the hand has already been conditioned.
That being said, after my experience, I threw the formula down the drain.
I am doing standard IP training, now, much more gradually, and with a better jow formula. So far, no problems.

[Razaunida]

here is an idea.


Look at the individual herbs in the formula.......and research them.

Anything people on here will only allow you an opportunity to waste everyone's time by saying, "Says who" or "prove it"

Go ahead...pubmed..medline...google scholar. Use it and draw up your own conclusions.

Or better yet, don't use it, and get arthritis...happy day!

[Razaunida]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

[faxiapreta]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

Speaking of stupid...

Maybe, gasp, putting herbs on your skin has absolutely nothing to do with bone remodeling.

[mooyingmantis]

I have practiced iron palm for decades. For years I did the striking without the use of jow. Over the last decade I have done the training with the use of a few different formulas.

I switched to using jow because I am older (mid 50s) and I am more careful about my health.

Can I prove that it works? No
Can I say with certainty that it increases healing? No
Have I noticed a difference in my hand's toughness? No
Will I still continue to use it? Yes

So, if I have not really noticed a difference why continue using it?

First, it is simply a part of the tradition of iron palm and I find cultural traditions interesting.
Second, people who know far more about Chinese medicine and herbalism than I do recommend it.
Finally, I make my own at little cost and have received gifts of jow from a few friends. So, my idea is that if it doesn't hurt and may help (even if only a placebo effect) why not use it.

I am honest about these things with my students who practice iron palm and provide jow, if they want it, for just the cost of the herbs.

I have not experienced ANY negative effects from iron palm training. Though I also must admit that I do not train it more than two 100 day training cycles per year. Unlike most, I take a few months off in between training cycles to promote healing. This is not the traditional method, but it is what I feel comfortable with and what works best with my schedule.

[ginosifu]

Is there real proof one way or they other that Jow works or not? Think of your skin, it has pores right? sweat comes out yes? is there any way that liquids can go in? People of all cultures massage liquids / oils / creams on thier skin to promote some type of affect yes?

Massaging any alcohol into your skin will help disapate blood clots and bruising if the skin can absorb it, yes? Part of the effect of jow is to disburse blood clots and move blood.

If TCM is correct, then adding other herbs into the alcohol will be absorbed into the skin as well. I can not prove that any thing has worked or not worked but, I will have many people that have know me for more than 15 years will back me up when I say that my hands are thicker, way thicker. The lady at the hospitol who tried to put an IV into the back of my hand will swear that my hand was made of leather. She could not get the needle into my skin and had to move to the fold of my arm. All of my students will tell you that when I hit them, my hands feel denser than a normal persons hand hitting them. Like having a roll of quarters in my hand when I hit them.

Faxiapreta:

In a controlled environment, If you would let me hit you (just a light hit, no fighting), I can demonstrate what my hands feel like (agiain just a demonstration not trying to hurt you). I guarrantee you will say that there is something different about my hands and how they felt.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

In a controlled environment, If you would let me hit you (just a light hit, no fighting), I can demonstrate what my hands feel like (agiain just a demonstration not trying to hurt you). I guarrantee you will say that there is something different about my hands and how they felt.

I guarantee your hits won't be nearly as hard as a pro boxer.

BTW, if you hit me, I will absolutely be hitting you also.

[faxiapreta]

Is there real proof one way or they other that Jow works or not? Think of your skin, it has pores right? sweat comes out yes? is there any way that liquids can go in? People of all cultures massage liquids / oils / creams on thier skin to promote some type of affect yes?

Speaking of snake oil...

Fortunately for most people's health, few substances are able to penetrate the skin in a very effective manner. If the skin/blood barrier was easily penetrated, many dangerous substances would be constantly entering the blood stream in toxic amounts.

But I tell you what. Take something that does pass easily though the skin like DMSO and start mixing it in with other substances to get them to penetrate the skin. You'll soon find out the toxic effects of what would happen if things were easily passing through the skin barrier.




Massaging any alcohol into your skin will help disapate blood clots and bruising if the skin can absorb it, yes? Part of the effect of jow is to disburse blood clots and move blood.

You must be joking, right? Disbursing blood clots with rubbing alcohol? Give me a break. You want to know what it would be like if alcohol was actually passing through the skin. Put some alcohol on an open wound and you'll see the effect of alcohol passing through the skin.

Better yet, drink it. That will pass right through the lining of the stomach and intestines, which is what you are claiming is happening through the skin. Post your results after you get out of the emergency room.


If TCM is correct, then adding other herbs into the alcohol will be absorbed into the skin as well.

Try putting your various substances into DMSO and get back to me in a few years when you have kidney and liver failure.

Do you understand why you cannot eat many substances? Obviously, you don't. Because the stomach and intenstines don't have the same barrier the skin does. If the skin did not have that barrier, coming into contact with toxic substances would have the same effect of ingesting them orally.

Go back to high school and pay attention in basic science classes this time, or at least develop some critical thinking and common sense.

[TenTigers]

look, if you are going to condition your hands, you need to do it on a regular basis. Gradual and continuous stress placed upon the bone will increase its density.
(wolf's law)

That being said, jow serves two purposes;

one, it promotes quicker healing, dispersing clots, stagnation, increases circulation, etc. In this way, you can maintain your training/conditioning regimen without interruption due to bruising.

Two-there are also other herbs that nourish the bone and tissue, aiding in not only the healing process, but the strengthening process as well.

(there are other aspects of TCM in jow such as tonifying organs affected by the training, ch'i circulation, etc but I don't want to go into that, rather concentrate on IP on a basic level. Save the other stuff for the herbal experts like plumdragon and Dale Dugas, and others more qualified to speak on that.

It's not magic, or snake oil, it's simply traditional practice.
Does it work? Well, it certainly seems to.
Of course, IP is only one small part of the whole pie-actually part of a part-tool development.
Is it necessary? Nope. Not every style practiced IP. Just like not every style practiced using iron rings. It's a personal choice.

[TenTigers]

Speaking of snake oil...

Fortunately for most people's health, few substances are able to penetrate the skin in a very effective manner. If the skin/blood barrier was easily penetrated, many dangerous substances would be constantly entering the blood stream in toxic amounts.












If the skin did not have that barrier, coming into contact with toxic substances would have the same effect of ingesting them orally.

Go back to high school and pay attention in basic science classes this time, or at least develop some critical thinking and common sense.


Our skin, the largest eliminatory organ in the body and our first line of immunity, is permeable to all chemicals. Medical research shows that significant amounts of cosmetic ingredients, including carcinogenic substances, penetrate the skin and end up in the blood stream. Many chemicals in cosmetics don’t cause obvious signs of toxicity on the skin but slowly poison us thorough repeated use.
This makes perfect sense too:
Today, the administration of drugs and medicines is often through transdermal skin patches. This has been shown to be up to 95% more effective than oral medication. .
This is both good and bad for us. Good because it means our skin can be fed, nourished and treated from the outside with some wonderful substances.
such as dit da jow.

;-p

[faxiapreta]

Our skin, the largest eliminatory organ in the body and our first line of immunity, is permeable to all chemicals. Medical research shows that significant amounts of cosmetic ingredients, including carcinogenic substances, penetrate the skin and end up in the blood stream. Many chemicals in cosmetics don’t cause obvious signs of toxicity on the skin but slowly poison us thorough repeated use.
This makes perfect sense too:
Today, the administration of drugs and medicines is often through transdermal skin patches. This has been shown to be up to 95% more effective than oral medication. .
This is both good and bad for us. Good because it means our skin can be fed, nourished and treated from the outside with some wonderful substances.
such as dit da jow.

;-p

You think dermal absorption of substances is more efficient that oral ingestion? Is that what you are saying?

If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Of course you can easily prove this. Start ingesting all the substances that come into contact with your skin. See how long it takes for you to develop liver or kidney failure.

Here's a great experiment and I'll do it with you. We'll both take a quart of radiator antifreeze. I will douse my skin with that quart. You drink it. Then we'll see which mechanism allowed for absorption.

[TenTigers]

You think dermal absorption of substances is more efficient that oral ingestion? Is that what you are saying?

If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Of course you can easily prove this. Start ingesting all the substances that come into contact with your skin. See how long it takes for you to develop liver or kidney failure.

no, of course not, and that is not what we're saying. Of course, if you want to run off on a tangent, enjoy.
Jow is absorbed into the skin, at the location of the injury. You bruise your hand, you rub jow into your hand.
You have sore muscles, you rub Jeng Guat Soi or icy hot, or arnica gel into that affected area. You certainly don't ingest it.
Congratulations, you started an intelligent topic, and by your involvement in it, brought it right down to stupid again.
Attaboy.

[TenTigers]

dude, up your meds....seriously.
You need to stay on topic. You seem so intent on "being right," that you take things out of context and harp on it, and go off on tangents.
The subjects you bring up are interesting, but you need to chill a bit and allow for an intelligent discourse.
It seems we've had this identical conversation before with Mysterious Power.
hmmm.....

[faxiapreta]

no, of course not, and that is not what we're saying. Of course, if you want to run off on a tangent, enjoy.
Jow is absorbed into the skin, at the location of the injury. You bruise your hand, you rub jow into your hand.
You have sore muscles, you rub Jeng Guat Soi or icy hot, or arnica gel into that affected area. You certainly don't ingest it.
Congratulations, you started an intelligent topic, and by your involvement in it, brought it right down to stupid again.
Attaboy.

Jow is does not pass through the skin in anything more than negligible amounts at the most.

Of course you don't ingest them. That's because they would pass into the bloodstream and start to shut down the kidneys and liver.

Same reason you wouldn't inject them at the site of the injury.

Same reason they don't poison you when you rub them on the skin, because they stay outside.

[faxiapreta]

dude, up your meds....seriously.
You need to stay on topic. You seem so intent on "being right," that you take things out of context and harp on it, and go off on tangents.

No, what I do is take things to their logical conclusion. Then you start calling it stupid because your argument falls apart.

It's called logical reasoning and critical thinking. You should try it some time instead of blindly following "tradition" because some ancient and ill-informed people hundreds or thousands of years ago thought they knew the way the world worked.

[TenTigers]

Jow is does not pass through the skin in anything more than negligible amounts at the most.
.
Good point- Which is why, when you have a bruise or soft tissue injury, you rub the jow (along with the proper massage techniques) several times a day, for several days-until the injury is healed. You don't simply dab it on once like cologne and expect it to work.

[faxiapreta]

Good point- Which is why, when you have a bruise or soft tissue injury, you rub the jow (along with the proper massage techniques) several times a day, for several days-until the injury is healed. You don't simply dab it on once like cologne and expect it to work.

The jow has nothing to do with the healing.

[TenTigers]

The jow has nothing to do with the healing.
and you say this why?

[faxiapreta]

and you say this why?

Because it is not being absorbed. Any "healing" effect comes from the massage (and even that is negligible) and placebo effects.

Healing time is the same without these treatments, other than what you are going to see from the massage and any placebo effect.

[IronWeasel]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?



Not dangerous for the several generations that have trained this (our) way.

Proven by many to be safe and successful.

The right "jow" and proper training are necessary.

Our teacher has trained his hane without medicine (Karate), and then with medicine and a better method (Iron Palm). The difference is night and day.

[TenTigers]

Because it is not being absorbed. Any "healing" effect comes from the massage (and even that is negligible) and placebo effects.

Healing time is the same without these treatments, other than what you are going to see from the massage and any placebo effect.
ok, we already "discussed" how jow does in fact get absorbed, what the herbs in it do, and now you are saying that the massage methods don't have any effect on healing?(new tangent coming..)
Hmmm. Ok, I'll bite. What are you basing this on-any personal experience? You sound so convinced.
Before you answer, let me mention that when I say, "massage, " I am not speaking of simply rubbing it in. There are specific tui-na methods used to properly apply and massage the jow, depending on the type of injury.

[Razaunida]

Speaking of stupid...

Maybe, gasp, putting herbs on your skin has absolutely nothing to do with bone remodeling.

You know...because you assume to know, yet have not researched the topic. You want the opinion of others so you can tell them that they are wrong.

Perhaps you are a waste of oxygen and in person I bet you are a bitach. I bet you cower and hold the pockets of better men.

[faxiapreta]

ok, we already "discussed" how jow does in fact get absorbed, what the herbs in it do, and now you are saying that the massage methods don't have any effect on healing?(new tangent coming..)
Hmmm. Ok, I'll bite. What are you basing this on-any personal experience? You sound so convinced.
Before you answer, let me mention that when I say, "massage, " I am not speaking of simply rubbing it in. There are specific tui-na methods used to properly apply and massage the jow, depending on the type of injury.

Jow does not get absorbed in any appreciable amounts... which is probably a good thing.

I don't believe I've ever seen one peer-reviewed scientific study showing that massage increases healing time.

Please point me to any you have seen.

[faxiapreta]

You know...because you assume to know, yet have not researched the topic. You want the opinion of others so you can tell them that they are wrong.

Perhaps you are a waste of oxygen and in person I bet you are a bitach. I bet you cower and hold the pockets of better men.


Methinks the person who simply sits back and snipes is the cowardly beotch, but I digress.

[Razaunida]

I don't believe I've ever seen one peer-reviewed scientific study showing that massage increases healing time.

Please point me to any you have seen.


Go look by yourself you lazy ass. You have google. I have seen many such articles...you don't look and don't read.

[faxiapreta]

Go look by yourself you lazy ass. You have google. I have seen many such articles...you don't look and don't read.

Sure, I'll do the work. Give me the specific search terms that you are looking for.

[IronWeasel]

ok, we already "discussed" how jow does in fact get absorbed, what the herbs in it do, and now you are saying that the massage methods don't have any effect on healing?(new tangent coming..)
Hmmm. Ok, I'll bite. What are you basing this on-any personal experience? You sound so convinced.
Before you answer, let me mention that when I say, "massage, " I am not speaking of simply rubbing it in. There are specific tui-na methods used to properly apply and massage the jow, depending on the type of injury.



Well....I posted before I read the entire thread.

So....for everyone else reading this semi-troll thread:

1) Jow (or IP medicine, rather) is protective. Use it.

2) Some people have trained BOTH ways and have concluded that a gradual IP method with proper IP medicine (not Dit Da Jow) is better.

3) Alcohol DOES enhance permeability of compounds through the skin. (Research transdermal patches.)

4) IP delivers a harder hit than non-IP.

5) I will demonstrate #4 on OP anytime within my tri-state area.

6) Ask Dale Dugas, Plumdragon or Teetsao about herbs.

7) OP, what is the name of your female World of Warcraft character?

[Razaunida]

Sure, I'll do the work. Give me the specific search terms that you are looking for.

gu sui bu, ru xiang, mo yao, hong hua, They are in almost every jow recipe.

Transdermal application information is in the people's pharmacopeia and there are copies available in English and many patches put out through pharmaceutical companies..I would assume they follow the same pharmaceutical guidelines.

There is also internal and external training wine. I used one to heal a joint injury.

[faxiapreta]

4) IP delivers a harder hit than non-IP.

5) I will demonstrate #4 on OP anytime within my tri-state area.

How will this demonstration work? What are the guidelines?

[IronWeasel]

How will this demonstration work? What are the guidelines?



I'm going to give you about five minutes to compose youself.

Then I'm going to bridge into your personal space, strike you for effect, break your balance, attempt a throw, then wreck your atlas vertebrae.

In that order.

You'd better show up after PM ing me.

[faxiapreta]

I'm going to give you about five minutes to compose youself.

Then I'm going to bridge into your personal space, strike you for effect, break your balance, attempt a throw, then wreck your atlas vertebrae.

In that order.

You'd better show up after PM ing me.

Oh, it's a full-on fight. Lots of bone-breaking. Sounds good.

[IronWeasel]

Oh, it's a full-on fight. Lots of bone-breaking. Sounds good.



I can travel within reason....

[B.Tunks]

at this point I'd just like add: 'never going to happen'. please refer back to this post for reassurance as required...

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Good jow has lots of stuff going on with it. Jow isn't meant to strengthen bone though, that is what the actually Iron Palm is supposed to be for. Jow is meant to "pull away" the soreness. Basically, and basically mind you, like any other Analgesic cream for such injuries...Icy-Hot, Tiger Balm, Bengay, Aspercream, or heell even some different kinds of vasolines...

For example the "hot" sensation, from lets say Camphor, relaxes and opens up the blood vessels around the affected area, new blood circulates through, and the bruise flows out with the 'non-stagnant' blood flow. While the Eucalyptus numbs the pain with its 'cold' sensation.

That isn't the best scientific explanation, but jow does work.

We do a somewhat similar treatement here in the 'West' for basic sports injuries. Hot- cold treatement...Put your hand in hot water, then put a ice pack on it, and so on...

A lot of Chienese teachers believe that this causes arthritis though, from "Fung Sup."

[ginosifu]

I guarantee your hits won't be nearly as hard as a pro boxer.BTW, if you hit me, I will absolutely be hitting you also.

You sound just like Dale (Knifefighter). You'ere acting like a Baby. What is wrong with a scientific experiment to help you understand IP. The idea is not to see if I can hit harder that a boxer, the idea is to let you feel my hand. I would not try and hurt you, I would hit with a small amount of force.

Have you ever heard of the Ciggarette patch: Absorbs thru the skin.

Have you ever heard of Female contrception patch: Absorbs thru the skin.

The idea is not that skin absorbtion is better that oral ingestion, the idea is the skin CAN absorb products.

Your initial querry: Is Jow needed or not?

I do not have any scientific proof that it is effective, but I have a whole communty of people that claim it has worked for them.

ginosifu

ps don't call me a "DUDE" you sound like a teenager.

[IronWeasel]

at this point I'd just like add: 'never going to happen'. please refer back to this post for reassurance as required...


You heard it here first, folks.:)

[Dale Dugas]

Interesting to have yet another net ghost drone on and on about nothing but keeps posting.

Let me know how I can be of service.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stop the silly internet challenges guys.

As for this thread:

Look, it's an honest question.
Nowadays is IP training valid anymore, outside of tradition?
The answer is NO.
Why?
Simple:

In the past, because of lack of protective gear and lack of softer substances for hitting, excessive conditioning of the hand was needed.
That is NOT the case anymore.
IT IS NOT NEEDED.
Pro fighters currently, and typically, hit harder than fighters of the past ( exceptions aside of course).
They are better trained and because of protective gear, can develop their striking power and fighting skills better and quicker than in the past.

That said, is their a place for IP training?
YES.
The typical answer is tradition and there is nothing wrong with that.
The other answer is that, for some, they want a type of condtioning that is "beyond" the standard, for whatever reason.
And IP training COUPLED with typical bag.pad and sparring training, will do just that.

To each their own.

As for Jow:
Yes, it works, anyone that has used it KNOWS it works.
Their are even "jows" used in the FMA to help with the bruises from stick fighting.
Arnaica Gel is an example of a "jow" that most people are familiar with.

[Brule]

Me being naive here but is Arnaica Gel mentioned by SR readily avaliable or is this another homemande type of jow?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Me being naive here but is Arnaica Gel mentioned by SR readily avaliable or is this another homemande type of jow?

Its a bruise/soar muscle gel you can get at any pharmacy or homeopathic store.

[David Jamieson]

Me being naive here but is Arnaica Gel mentioned by SR readily avaliable or is this another homemande type of jow?

arnica tincture can be procured easily. It is arnica montana or leopards bane and it has bruise healing qualities. It will relieve a bruise in 1/3 the time.

It is super toxic. do not ingest.

as an aside. a typical hematoma takes about 10-14 days to clear naturally and without medicine or massage will leave behind the scar tissue from healing the wound.

with dit da jow or tinctures etc, the bruise will clear in a few days only and will not leave the scar tissue behind because the herbs, massage and alcohol help to re-absorb the dead blood into the body.

[Brule]

Is it useful in getting rid of scar tissue from surgery?

[faxiapreta]

Good jow has lots of stuff going on with it. Jow isn't meant to strengthen bone though, that is what the actually Iron Palm is supposed to be for. Jow is meant to "pull away" the soreness. Basically, and basically mind you, like any other Analgesic cream for such injuries...Icy-Hot, Tiger Balm, Bengay, Aspercream, or heell even some different kinds of vasolines...

For example the "hot" sensation, from lets say Camphor, relaxes and opens up the blood vessels around the affected area, new blood circulates through, and the bruise flows out with the 'non-stagnant' blood flow. While the Eucalyptus numbs the pain with its 'cold' sensation. "

I think if you read most college level textbooks on human physiology, you will find that putting external rubs does nothing to change blood flow.

[David Jamieson]

Is it useful in getting rid of scar tissue from surgery?

not your daily use bruise medicine no.

how old is the scar?

[wenshu]

I think if you read most college level textbooks on human physiology, you will find that putting external rubs does nothing to change blood flow.


I didn't know Devry offered courses in Pharmacokinetics.

[Brule]

not your daily use bruise medicine no.

how old is the scar?

9 months...

[faxiapreta]

Have you ever heard of the Ciggarette patch: Absorbs thru the skin.

Have you ever heard of Female contrception patch: Absorbs thru the skin.

The idea is not that skin absorbtion is better that oral ingestion, the idea is the skin CAN absorb products.

Are some things absorbed through the skin? Absolutely. I mentioned DMSO as one. Some medications (far from all) are absorbed.

Most things are not in any appreciable amounts.

[faxiapreta]

You sound just like Dale (Knifefighter). You'ere acting like a Baby. What is wrong with a scientific experiment to help you understand IP. The idea is not to see if I can hit harder that a boxer, the idea is to let you feel my hand. I would not try and hurt you, I would hit with a small amount of force.

This does beg the obvious question:

Why don't you simply step into an MMA gym close to you and post a clip of you going a few rounds of boxing with one or two of the fighters there? It should be a simple thing for you to demonstrate your power punching in a few rounds of that.

That's the simplest, quickest and easiest way for you to show a realistic demo of your IP abilities.

Having someone standing there while you hit them without hurting them doesn't show anything.

[faxiapreta]

Here's an interesting clip of guy who was claiming he could hit especially hard and was supposedly able to avoid being hit himself. He decided to do what I am suggesting anyone do who feels the need to demonstrate their abilities in this area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0

It usually doesn't take long for people find out, their "hard punching" wasn't quite as hard as they thought is was.

[TenTigers]

you can pick up a good arnica gel at GNC. It comes in a plastic squeeze bottle or tube-it's orange. I use it on sore muscles, bruises, strains, etc.

[ginosifu]

This does beg the obvious question:

Why don't you simply step into an MMA gym close to you and post a clip of you going a few rounds of boxing with one or two of the fighters there? It should be a simple thing for you to demonstrate your power punching in a few rounds of that.

That's the simplest, quickest and easiest way for you to show a realistic demo of your IP abilities.

Having someone standing there while you hit them without hurting them doesn't show anything.

You're not getting it. Whether I can fight or not, is not the question. If I have no MMA / San Shou skills, when I get in ring I will get killed whether I have IP or not. We are not trying to determine how well I can fight.

Just because a person learns IP does not necessarily make them a good fighter. You can have the hardest hands in the world and if don't know how to fight, you will still get beat up.

Getting back to my point... just to demonstrate that a persons hands are denser does not mean getting in the ring....

small example:

One time I was in a seminar with Sifu Wing Lam. We were talking about training and arm conditioning. To demonstrate, Wing Lam took his forearm and whacked my arm a little. It felt like his arm was made of a lead pipe wrapped in rubber. It was so thick, I could feel the power. Right then and there I knew if I would be hit by this arm it "Could" cause damage. We did not have to get into the ring and fight. There was no death match. He proved his point just with a demonstration. Again why is so hard for you to except a demonstration like this? I have no need to hurt you. Why must you get all defensive and act like a wuss?

If you take 2 fighters with equal ability / same size / same strength (approximately) and they both train in any MA ( whether it be boxing, Kung Fu, MMA). They both do bag work, both do ring ring time, both are taught good structure and how to punch properly. However 1 is adds additional IP training, the IP will have a bit more punching power because his hands are a bit more denser than the other.. Common sense.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

Here's an interesting clip of guy who was claiming he could hit especially hard and was supposedly able to avoid being hit himself. He decided to do what I am suggesting anyone do who feels the need to demonstrate their abilities in this area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0

It usually doesn't take long for people find out, their "hard punching" wasn't quite as hard as they thought is was.

Here's one for you.

All humans, to the last are weak, small, defenseless in their natural state.
The only thing a human can box or fight is another human.

Humans are for the most part physically incapable of effective combat on any level in their natural state.

Mind is key.

Contest fighting is actually the equivalent of a form of masturbation. It gives pleasure to some, is boring for others and has no result, no real benefit and no real world changing outcome.

when we really make war on each other, we don't box or make contest. We look for the most devastating and decisive attack we can and apply it. These days, that comes in the forms of shelling and bombing.

Use of swords or sticks or throwing items is quaint and thoroughly antiquated.
sport fighting is meaningless.

I train because it is something that interests me as I pass my time here in this world. That's the only real reason for training. Anything else is deluded in many ways.

I make no apologies for that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's an interesting clip of guy who was claiming he could hit especially hard and was supposedly able to avoid being hit himself. He decided to do what I am suggesting anyone do who feels the need to demonstrate their abilities in this area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0

It usually doesn't take long for people find out, their "hard punching" wasn't quite as hard as they thought is was.

I wonder how much he could bench press?

[faxiapreta]

One time I was in a seminar with Sifu Wing Lam. We were talking about training and arm conditioning. To demonstrate, Wing Lam took his forearm and whacked my arm a little. It felt like his arm was made of a lead pipe wrapped in rubber. It was so thick, I could feel the power. Right then and there I knew if I would be hit by this arm it "Could" cause damage. We did not have to get into the ring and fight. There was no death match. He proved his point just with a demonstration. Again why is so hard for you to except a demonstration like this? I have no need to hurt you. Why must you get all defensive and act like a wuss?

If you take 2 fighters with equal ability / same size / same strength (approximately) and they both train in any MA ( whether it be boxing, Kung Fu, MMA). They both do bag work, both do ring ring time, both are taught good structure and how to punch properly. However 1 is adds additional IP training, the IP will have a bit more punching power because his hands are a bit more denser than the other.. Common sense.

ginosifu

I've already agreed that punching hard things makes ones hands harder. You'll get no argument from me there.

You want to condition your hands to break things or to have harder bones? Fine. I have no debate with that.

However, as you said, it doesn't translate to fighting. In a fighting context, the guy who does IP training is not going to have more punching power. Punching power in a fighting context comes from the guy who has better technique for developing and delivering power in that context.

[faxiapreta]

One time I was in a seminar with Sifu Wing Lam. We were talking about training and arm conditioning. To demonstrate, Wing Lam took his forearm and whacked my arm a little. It felt like his arm was made of a lead pipe wrapped in rubber. It was so thick, I could feel the power. Right then and there I knew if I would be hit by this arm it "Could" cause damage. We did not have to get into the ring and fight. There was no death match. He proved his point just with a demonstration.

That proved nothing, other than the fact that he had you "convinced" about something there was no real evidence for, other than the fact that he had a hard forearm... it's called the psyche-out and people have been using since the beginning of time.

I've seen plenty of people who were "hard" and intimidating in "demonstration mode", who couldn't apply anything in a full-contact setting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've already agreed that punching hard things makes ones hands harder. You'll get no argument from me there.

You want to condition your hands to break things or to have harder bones? Fine. I have no debate with that.

However, as you said, it doesn't translate to fighting. In a fighting context, the guy who does IP training is not going to have more punching power. Punching power in a fighting context comes from the guy who has better technique for developing and delivering power in that context.

The point, as it relates to fighting, is that the conditioned hand fighter ( or IP guy if you prefer) will have less concern about hitting hard without protection.
Now, that said I know many boxers that I bounced with that had no concerns about doing that either, LOL !

[faxiapreta]

The point, as it relates to fighting, is that the conditioned hand fighter ( or IP guy if you prefer) will have less concern about hitting hard without protection.

Now, that said I know many boxers that I bounced with that had no concerns about doing that either, LOL !

The second part of your statement kind of disqualifies the first part, don't you think.

I've never known any boxer or mma guy who had any concern about hitting hard without protection in a street fight. Most people hit as hard as they can in that situation. The last thing they are worried about is if their hand might hurt afterwards.

[ginosifu]

However, as you said, it doesn't translate to fighting. In a fighting context, the guy who does IP training is not going to have more punching power. Punching power in a fighting context comes from the guy who has better technique for developing and delivering power in that context.

Yes this is true... Punching power is derived thru proper training, structure etc etc. However, punching power can be increased if you're hands are denser (If you already know how to hit properly). And Mean denser thru IP training.

All styles should teach proper punching structure. All styles should have some type of bag work. All styles have ring time. I don't care if you are doing Boxing, Kung Fu, MMA, Karate, BBJ whatever.

Not every style needs to add IP to there system but, don't knock peeps who put it in theirs. It is basically a different type of Conditioning.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

Yes this is true... Punching power is derived thru proper training, structure etc etc. However, punching power can be increased if you're hands are denser (If you already know how to hit properly). And Mean denser thru IP training.

All styles should teach proper punching structure. All styles should have some type of bag work. All styles have ring time. I don't care if you are doing Boxing, Kung Fu, MMA, Karate, BBJ whatever.

Not every style needs to add IP to there system but, don't knock peeps who put it in theirs. It is basically a different type of Conditioning.

ginosifu

I'm not knocking anyone who puts IP training into their system.

I'm knocking people who make claims (i.e. ruptured organs, splitting skulls, having extra punching power) with zero evidence of these claims.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The second part of your statement kind of disqualifies the first part, don't you think.

I've never known any boxer or mma guy who had any concern about hitting hard without protection in a street fight. Most people hit as hard as they can in that situation. The last thing they are worried about is if their hand might hurt afterwards.

I agree, most sport combat guys hit as hard as they can and worry about the rest later.
Of course that is until they bust up their hand.
Which is still pretty rare, though it does happen.
IP just address that issue rather than ignores it.

The real issue is does IP give you some sort of "super punch" that gives you that extra edge.
Deep down that is THE point, isn't it?

[faxiapreta]

I agree, most sport combat guys hit as hard as they can and worry about the rest later.
Of course that is until they bust up their hand.
Which is still pretty rare, though it does happen.
IP just address that issue rather than ignores it.

The real issue is does IP give you some sort of "super punch" that gives you that extra edge.
Deep down that is THE point, isn't it?

Actually, there's another point, which is the claim that boxers, MMA guys, etc break their hands in fights, but people who do IP training don't.

This is simply another one of those baseless, zero-evidence based claims.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, there's another point, which is the claim that boxers, MMA guys, etc break their hands in fights, but people who do IP training don't.

This is simply another one of those baseless, zero-evidence based claims.

Well, to be honest, most IP people I know tend to use the open hand so...
That said, I know of at least on that did break his hand in a fight.
Of course Ip does NOT = unbreakable and there are many types of IP, just as there are many types of hand conditioning.
You know Tak Kubota right?
Prime example of hand conditoning in the JMA venue, that type I used to do in Kyokushin.
I can honestly say that the IP type is better, less damaging and more effective, BUT longer in the process.

[faxiapreta]

Well, to be honest, most IP people I know tend to use the open hand so...

Which would tend to increase the probability of finger dislocations, which, I don't believe IP addresses.

[Northwind]

I'm so surprised you guys are actually discussing with this guy. There will never, and I mean NEVER, be a time when people like this will say anything remotely close to "Oh, I see. You're right. Thank you - I've learned something new and have a new perspective." unless it's complete sarcasm. These idiots are out to troll, and whatever you say will never be enough - they are out to say you're wrong about anything that does not measure up to their pre-established personal beliefs about any given topic.

I'm going through a similar battle over on MAP (martialartsplanet), where they're going on and on about nothing within TCM works - prove it, double-blind studies, mysticism yadda yadda bs. It's nothing but an effort in frustration.

[faxiapreta]

I'm so surprised you guys are actually discussing with this guy. There will never, and I mean NEVER, be a time when people like this will say anything remotely close to "Oh, I see. You're right. Thank you - I've learned something new and have a new perspective." unless it's complete sarcasm. These idiots are out to troll, and whatever you say will never be enough - they are out to say you're wrong about anything that does not measure up to their pre-established personal beliefs about any given topic.

I'm going through a similar battle over on MAP (martialartsplanet), where they're going on and on about nothing within TCM works - prove it, double-blind studies, mysticism yadda yadda bs. It's nothing but an effort in frustration.

Asking for evidence is part of what makes a person able to think critically.

Of course there will be a time when a person will say you are right. Simply show some convincing evidence. Showing convincing evidence usually changes a logically thinking person's mind.

Not being able show evidence simply provides evidence that your argument is based on smoke and mirrors.

[Northwind]

Asking for evidence is part of what makes a person able to think critically.

Of course there will be a time when a person will say you are right. Simply show some convincing evidence. Showing convincing evidence usually changes a logically thinking person's mind.

Not being able show evidence simply provides evidence that your argument is based on smoke and mirrors.

LMAO
Spoken like a true troll in a TCMA forum doing the science dance. My @$$ about the "of course there will be a time when a person will say you are right". If they even come close to seeing the fault of their view, they will simply vanish from the forum.

How bout you just take up any of the offers to get your "EVIDENCE" first-hand? Even then, you'd be getting up, dusting yourself off and saying something idiotic like "well, it's placebo" etc...

[TenTigers]

Tak Kubota's hand is a foot.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tak Kubota's hand is a foot.....

Indeed.
As for why I discuss things with faixa or anyone:
To learn from them and, if possible, for them to learn from me.

[faxiapreta]

How bout you just take up any of the offers to get your "EVIDENCE" first-hand? Even then, you'd be getting up, dusting yourself off and saying something idiotic like "well, it's placebo" etc...

Been there, done that.

The fact is, I already know from experience people with IP training do not hit harder than a boxer or mma fighter, although they like to believe they do.

Rather than "offering to do demonstrations", the obvious and simple thing to do is for them to step into a mma or boxing gym and show themselves knocking people down.

This would be simple and easy, and much easier to do that trying to meet with annonymous people from the internet.

Of course, any thinking person can clearly see why they don't do this.

[bawang]

john f springer did iron palm and got ground pounded by bullshido guys

[sanjuro_ronin]

john f springer did iron palm and got ground pounded by bullshido guys

One guy, just to be clear.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3HcgR2_vA

[faxiapreta]

One guy, just to be clear.

Please reference any other IP guy who stepped up to the plate and demonstrated his "abilities" against someone who was fighting back.

[Razaunida]

iron palm is good, but if that is your whole thing it is just like an uncoordinated guy that is really into sharpening a knife. He will still get killed by someone who focuses on skill.

Give that coordinated guy the knife and he is more powerful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please reference any other IP guy who stepped up to the plate and demonstrated his "abilities" against someone who was fighting back.

Currently and in sport combat?
None that I know of.

[faxiapreta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3HcgR2_vA


Gotta appreciate the irony of saying "I'm going to effing kill you" while in the midst of getting pounded.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gotta appreciate the irony of saying "I'm going to effing kill you" while in the midst of getting pounded.

From what I recall, it was Jordan that admited to say that.

[faxiapreta]

From what I recall, it was Jordan that admited to say that.

Obviously, you didn't watch the clip that was just posted.

Nevermind. Hard to tell, but you might be right about that.

Seemed a little incongruous. Makes more sense coming from the guy giving the beating after getting his head out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously, you didn't watch the clip that was just posted.

Like I said, IF I recall correctly, Jordan admitted that was him, which I also found odd.
I have no interest in watch that sad display on all sides, any more than I already have.

[faxiapreta]

Like I said, IF I recall correctly, Jordan admitted that was him, which I also found odd.

I just rewatched it. I think you are right, that it was him. Makes sense, considering the guy on the bottom was trying to eye gouge him.

[faxiapreta]

I have no interest in watch that sad display on all sides, any more than I already have.

You should check out the comments just to get a laugh.

This description of the fight was my favorite: "Black guy defending a tranny gives bald traditionalist a grappling lesson."

Seems like could have been an episode right out of the Jerry Springer show. Maybe he's his brother.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just rewatched it. I think you are right, that it was him. Makes sense, considering the guy on the bottom was trying to eye gouge him.

Don't even go there with the freaking eye gouge crap.
Funny that it's the MMA guy that delivers the "too deadly" bite !
LMAO !

[alchemist]

Speaking of snake oil...

But I tell you what. Take something that does pass easily though the skin like DMSO and start mixing it in with other substances to get them to penetrate the skin. You'll soon find out the toxic effects of what would happen if things were easily passing through the skin barrier.



Can't say much about Jow in that I have never seen any solid scientific study of its properties (I am aware there are 5000 different recipes so my statement is over-generalising) though my teacher's herbal remedies work on other things so why wouldn't his jow be as good?

But DMSO... Ahhh... My good friend DMSO... Now that is an amazing medicine. For any kind of inflammation, it is sovereign. I used it on a herniated disc. Chinese herbs are pretty awesome, but I am not sure they compare with courses of DMSO along with magnesium and high dosage vitamin C supplementation for healing from a sports injury. (and a proper diet!!!)

[David Jamieson]

Tis a dumb question actually that really was asked in a dumb way.

Jow speeds healing and therefore increases training time and therefore is highly useful.

as the faxia character likely doesn't use it or understand it and has what seems to be a completely different methodology, It is odd that it should be so vehemently criticized from beneath a cloak of such stifling ignorance.

some of us know, some of us apparently do not know.

nuff said.

[Dale Dugas]

DMSO is not all that safe, and if it was, you would see it used more. It is controversial to say the least.

I am a little nervous as certain new members keep posting about it.

NEVER mix DMSO with anything as it will take whatever has been dissolved in it and help it cross through the skin into the blood.

This is extremely dangerious, and needs to be addressed here.

Never use DMSO to make Dit Da Jow, period. The herbs dissolved in alcohol and water are a much better, and safer medium to use than DMSO.

You cannot control how much of a substance/chemical/substrate will be absorbed through the skin into the blood stream.

For the people who keep posting its uses, stop. You are not health care professionals.

[David Jamieson]

Can't say much about Jow in that I have never seen any solid scientific study of its properties (I am aware there are 5000 different recipes so my statement is over-generalising) though my teacher's herbal remedies work on other things so why wouldn't his jow be as good?

But DMSO... Ahhh... My good friend DMSO... Now that is an amazing medicine. For any kind of inflammation, it is sovereign. I used it on a herniated disc. Chinese herbs are pretty awesome, but I am not sure they compare with courses of DMSO along with magnesium and high dosage vitamin C supplementation for healing from a sports injury. (and a proper diet!!!)

are you saying you had to read solid scientific studies about dmso before deciding that it was the sovereign of of inflammation relief?

DMSO has been spoken of and is expected to be used very cautiously and with the guidance of a health care professional.

The efficacy of jow is see-able in real time. Two bruises, one treated with jow, the other not. The untreated hematoma will remain for 10--14 days. The treated hematoma is gone in less than 5 in most cases and barring outliers like anemics etc (who probably should be doing too much martial arts really anyway)

It is self evident. The science was done in a different format ages ago.

[faxiapreta]

DMSO is not all that safe, and if it was, you would see it used more. It is controversial to say the least.

I am a little nervous as certain new members keep posting about it.

NEVER mix DMSO with anything as it will take whatever has been dissolved in it and help it cross through the skin into the blood.

This is extremely dangerious, and needs to be addressed here.

LOL @ throwing out cautions regarding DMSO, but then thinking jow is somehow absorbed through the skin and calling it completely safe.

Pick one. Can't have it both ways.



Never use DMSO to make Dit Da Jow, period. The herbs dissolved in alcohol and water are a much better, and safer medium to use than DMSO.

You cannot control how much of a substance/chemical/substrate will be absorbed through the skin into the blood stream.

And how, pray tell, do you control it in the first place whether or not you are using DMSO?


For the people who keep posting its uses, stop. You are not health care professionals.

For the people who keep posting about using jow, stop. You are not health care professionals.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used DMSO when I was doing physio on my left shoulder for an "inpingement" and this was a couple of years ago.
It worked well and made the recovery quicker, but **** did it stink, LOL !
and I even got a "burn" on my skin from it.

[teetsao]

"health care" professionals dont know anything about jow. nor anything about natural health and healing,only "drugs". doctors kill 1000s of people every year. pharmacists kill 1000s people every year. i dont need info from them on my daily health and training practices.
man,you are the worst example of someone trying to prove a point, and point is,you can prove nothing.
china has done many researches on the efficacy of jow.do the research.

[faxiapreta]

"health care" professionals dont know anything about jow. nor anything about natural health and healing,only "drugs". doctors kill 1000s of people every year. pharmacists kill 1000s people every year. i dont need info from them on my daily health and training practices

Just as many, if not more, people die from self and quack-prescribed herbs and medications.


man,you are the worst example of someone trying to prove a point, and point is,you can prove nothing.
china has done many researches on the efficacy of jow.do the research.

I'd say someone talking about exploding organs and skulls would the worst example of trying to prove a point.

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes: Lord where to start...

actually, a couple of the people who advocate use of dit da jow are indeed health care professionals here on this forum.

Some are western medical pros and others are eastern medical pros with their proper certs et al.

so how about faxiapreta just stop posting your provocative and unwarranted blatherings?

please?

[Razaunida]

So foxy....how did your research come on the herbs I mentioned? All of it is in English and I believe that you speak English.

[Dale Dugas]

spreading false information here could influence someone who knows nothing to try something in the hopes it works, but it could cause harm.

that in itself is reprehensible.

stop with the false information from a net ghost.

time to put this troll persona to bed.

really.

[faxiapreta]

spreading false information here could influence someone who knows nothing to try something in the hopes it works, but it could cause harm.

Bingo! Thank you.

DMSO = false information that could cause harm.

jow = false information that could cause harm.

[David Jamieson]

Bingo! Thank you.

DMSO = false information that could cause harm.

jow = false information that could cause harm.

faxiapreta = half wit causing trouble. :p

[TenTigers]

here's a simple solution:
you don't like jow? Don't use it.
You don't like TCMA methods? Don't practice them.
You don't like Howard Stern? Don't listen to his show.
I don't like sea urchin. Guess what? I don't order it.
Freakin genius isn't it?
Now stfu, and gtfo.
Have a nice day.

step...

[faxiapreta]

So foxy....how did your research come on the herbs I mentioned? All of it is in English and I believe that you speak English.

Pretty much as I suspected. No scientific evidence for the claims being made here regarding rubbing them into the skin, other than the occasional placebo effect.

[ginosifu]

I'd say someone talking about exploding organs and skulls would the worst example of trying to prove a point.

I think you are the only one who believes in exploding organs / Dim Mak / Cracked skulls.. No kung fu Teacher that I know of has ever made claims to able to explode organs. Dale (KnifeFighter aka Fraxiapreta)... you are the only who has the problem.

What you need to do is; Do a bit more detailed research on Chinese Medicine, Herbal remedies out of China and the history of Jow. You will find that almost every household in China has some type of jow as basic remedy for bruises, aches and pains.

Just because YOU do not recognize Chinese Medicine as a credible healing path, does mean it does not work.

This example is probably the best way to see if Jow works:

1 of my children bumped their head... bamm a nice goose egg on their head. My wife and I put ice on it... that was it. It went away in about 2 or 3 days.

A different child of mine did the same exact thing. Bamm a nice goose egg in the same spot. This time my wife asked me to try some Jow on it (There was no cut or open wound). I took a regular bandage and put some jow right in the white cloth area of the bandaid and put it to their goose egg. The very next day the swelling and bruising were gone. Magic.... no. TCM.... Yes

ginosifu

ps fraxiapreta you need to get a life man! None of your *****in and moaning about how wrong TCM and or JOW is, will change the fact that it works. In your little world, you may believe it does not work. Just because you believe something can not make it true.

[faxiapreta]

I think you are the only one who believes in exploding organs / Dim Mak / Cracked skulls.. No kung fu Teacher that I know of has ever made claims to able to explode organs.

In the thread that teetsao deleted, those are the types of things he was saying.



This example is probably the best way to see if Jow works:

1 of my children bumped their head... bamm a nice goose egg on their head. My wife and I put ice on it... that was it. It went away in about 2 or 3 days.

A different child of mine did the same exact thing. Bamm a nice goose egg in the same spot. This time my wife asked me to try some Jow on it (There was no cut or open wound). I took a regular bandage and put some jow right in the white cloth area of the bandaid and put it to their goose egg. The very next day the swelling and bruising were gone. Magic.... no. TCM.... Yes

The best way to see if jow works is to do controlled studies with statistical analysis published in peer-reviewed journals.

Your idea of proving the efficacy of a treatment by using bumps and bruises on your kids heads as proof pretty much shows how backwards your thinking is on this.

[ginosifu]

The best way to see if jow works is to do controlled studies with statistical analysis published in peer-reviewed journals.


It's already been done in China. Again do a bit more research before you speak.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

You will find that almost every household in China has some type of jow as basic remedy for bruises, aches and pains.

And you will find most Western households have things things like Icy/Hot as basic remedy for bruises, aches and pains. Doesn't mean they actually work.

[faxiapreta]

It's already been done in China. Again do a bit more research before you speak.

ginosifu

Please point to the peer reviewed studies in Chinese scientific literature showing the efficacy of rubbing jow on the skin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pretty much as I suspected. No scientific evidence for the claims being made here regarding rubbing them into the skin, other than the occasional placebo effect.

I have used bruise medicine of various sorts of the 30+ years I have been doing MA, some of them worked, most didn't.
I have used two different types of Jow, one from Steven Hamp and as of late, from Dale.
I can say this, IT WORKS.
Don't ask me how, I don't know, but I do know this, in the first years I experiements with using it and not using, to see if there was a difference.
There is.

[ginosifu]

Please point to the peer reviewed studies in Chinese scientific literature showing the efficacy of rubbing jow on the skin.

Sorry but I am not your lacky. You will need to research this on your own. There are several martial art journals (most written in Chinese, some in English) that detail the studies that were done. I don't know the names nor do I remember where you can find them. This was something I researched some 15 years or more ago and I did it before I put Jow on my kids head (Idiot)

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

I have used bruise medicine of various sorts of the 30+ years I have been doing MA, some of them worked, most didn't.

Quoted for truth.

[faxiapreta]

Sorry but I am not your lacky. You will need to research this on your own. There are several martial art journals (most written in Chinese, some in English) that detail the studies that were done. I don't know the names nor do I remember where you can find them.

I find it interesting that the none of people who moan and complain about my opinion on this can point me to some actual peer-reviewed studies on this.

You want me to shut up about this? No problem. Simply point me to the science that shows rubbing jow on skin has internal medicinal effects.

People who actually had the evidence you are claiming would have no trouble pointing to the specific research.

Once again, claims, but no actual real evidence other than heresay.

[Razaunida]

you haven't looked. You want the info..its on you. I posted the leads, but you don't want to know.

[David Jamieson]

I find it interesting that the none of people who moan and complain about my opinion on this can point me to some actual peer-reviewed studies on this.

You want me to shut up about this? No problem. Simply point me to the science that shows rubbing jow on skin has internal medicinal effects.

show me where science says it's ok to consume butter.

SHOW ME!!!!

lol at the braying ass here.

Do you go to the grocery store and shout at the clerk to show you the cow from which your milk came from so that you can personally confirm that it was a healthy cow?

The more you post, the bigger an idiot you appear to be!

keep posting dummy! yay for dumb ass fooking idiots on the forum hooray for you, you are so smart! You must know everything! We love you! keep posting dummy, we love you dummy! You can be our dummy and we will cherish your dumbness and hold it and call it our own!

[faxiapreta]

you haven't looked. You want the info..its on you. I posted the leads, but you don't want to know.

Didn't see it. If it's there, simply show me the studies in the journals. You are one of the people moaning that you don't like my opinion. If that's the case, show me.

[Razaunida]

keep your opinion. And to Helll with you.

[faxiapreta]

show me where science says it's ok to consume butter.

Butter, like all foodstuffs (unlike herbs), are controlled by the FDA and have to meet standards and have regular inspections.

As far as research on butter, here's some:

http://www.cdrf.org/content.asp?contentID=374

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2001.tb16082.x/abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030270862774

[ginosifu]

I find it interesting that the none of people who moan and complain about my opinion on this can point me to some actual peer-reviewed studies on this.

You want me to shut up about this? No problem. Simply point me to the science that shows rubbing jow on skin has internal medicinal effects.

People who actually had the evidence you are claiming would have no trouble pointing to the specific research.

Once again, claims, but no actual real evidence other than heresay.

Lets go to the other side of the coin. You show me your evidence that Jow (or any other alcohol related products) do not penetrate the skin and are not absorbed into the blood stream. All we have is just your heresay.

Again I go back to the cigarette patch: it is absorbed thru the skin. The female contraception patch: it is absorbed thru the skin. Although they have oral medications to do the same job, why would they offer dermal patches?

Again, your an Idiot and you research your topics very well.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

Lets go to the other side of the coin. You show me your evidence that Jow (or any other alcohol related products) do not penetrate the skin and are not absorbed into the blood stream. All we have is just your heresay.

Again I go back to the cigarette patch: it is absorbed thru the skin. The female contraception patch: it is absorbed thru the skin. Although they have oral medications to do the same job, why would they offer dermal patches?

Some medication pass through the skin and some don't. Medications are heavily researched and have to pass rigorous studies and tests, so that the exact mechanisms are known. There is a wealth of peer reviewed scientific studies and tests regarding each of these medications.

Herbs, on the other hand, have no such requirements. There efficacy and mechanisms are mostly heresay. Do they pass through the skin? Maybe, maybe not. Are they harmful? Maybe, maybe not.

And that's the problem.

[Razaunida]

Some medication pass through the skin and some don't. Medications are heavily researched and have to pass rigorous studies and tests, so that the exact mechanisms are known. There is a wealth of peer reviewed scientific studies and tests regarding each of these medications.

Herbs, on the other hand, have no such requirements. There efficacy and mechanisms are mostly heresay. Do they pass through the skin? Maybe, maybe not. Are they harmful? Maybe, maybe not.

And that's the problem.

No that is your problem. The information is there and I can sell it to you. It took me a long time to find and I am using it in a book I am writing. I'm not giving it to you for free. I gave you some hints and you are too worthless to follow up.

[faxiapreta]

Again, your an Idiot and you research your topics very well.


Gino,
I don't believe I've called you any names. Please leave the name calling out of your posts to me.

[faxiapreta]

No that is your problem. The information is there and I can sell it to you. It took me a long time to find and I am using it in a book I am writing. I'm not giving it to you for free. I gave you some hints and you are too worthless to follow up.

That's fine. You are welcome to your opinion regarding the efficacy, just as I am welcome to my opinion regarding the lack thereof and having no inclination to spend money for what I consider to be snake oil.

[TenTigers]

That's fine. You are welcome to your opinion regarding the efficacy, just as I am welcome to my opinion regarding the lack thereof and having no inclination to spend money for what I consider to be snake oil.

there ya go!
problem solved. Now go on your merry way, and stop wasting bandwidth.

[faxiapreta]

there ya go!
problem solved. Now go on your merry way, and stop wasting bandwidth.

It's my thread. If you don't like my opinion that jow is a bunch of huey hocus pocus sold to the gullible, stay out of the thread.

It's pretty simple.

[David Jamieson]

Butter, like all foodstuffs (unlike herbs), are controlled by the FDA and have to meet standards and have regular inspections.

As far as research on butter, here's some:

http://www.cdrf.org/content.asp?contentID=374

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2001.tb16082.x/abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030270862774

Aspartame is sanctioned by the FDA because Donald Rumsfeld had it pushed through while he headed that org. It isn't exactly what can be call proven, tested or safe and yet the FDA has allowed it on the market for years.

You want more examples of half thought out egregious decisions by government bureaucracies? Cause you can dig that all day long every day for days and days...

Have you considered that your lack of ability to read Chinese may be your greatest stumbling block to understanding? Why would you look to the FDA for Chinese medical knowledge? Surely you can't be that stupid? Or can you? :p

also, where do you think standard drugs come from? You do realize that most are found in herbs and such right? Oh you don't? Ok. Why didn't you say so?

[ginosifu]

Herbs, on the other hand, have no such requirements. There efficacy and mechanisms are mostly heresay. Do they pass through the skin? Maybe, maybe not. Are they harmful? Maybe, maybe not.

With the above statement I rest my case. You don't have any real proof that Jow does or does not work. Please don't harp on anyone unless you find some real evidence. This is the first intelligent statement you've made.

ginosifu

[donjitsu2]

Personally I don't use any jow for my "Iron Hand (http://www.uncagedfighter.com/2010/10/this-article-is-re-write-of-another.html)" (if you can even call it that) training.

I've used it in the past and it seemed to help with bruising a little. But I find that witch hazel and rubbing alcohol (I like the winter green) work about as well.

The best method, for me, is to run my hands under hot for a minute or two then switch to cold water for a minute or two. I'll alternate between the two several times.

Great thing about the hot/cold water method is...it's free. Which means I can do it several times a day over the course of a day - or a few days depending on how bad I bang my hands up.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[faxiapreta]

Aspartame is sanctioned by the FDA because Donald Rumsfeld had it pushed through while he headed that org. It isn't exactly what can be call proven, tested or safe and yet the FDA has allowed it on the market for years.

You want more examples of half thought out egregious decisions by government bureaucracies? Cause you can dig that all day long every day for days and days...


Please start your own thread if you want to harp on imagined government conspiracies.

[David Jamieson]

Please start your own thread if you want to harp on imagined government conspiracies.

Please go away and find a quiet place to consider your stupidity and incongruous thinking that you present here.

also, work on calming your mind somewhat. You are a negative person with negative output and that will effect YOU more so than anyone else you would like to project it on.

just sayin...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok guys, enough with the personal insults.
Make your case but stop with personal insults, got it?

[donjitsu2]

Please start your own thread if you want to harp on imagined government conspiracies.

http://anonymouslefty.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/x-files-believe1.jpg

[faxiapreta]

With the above statement I rest my case. You don't have any real proof that Jow does or does not work. Please don't harp on anyone unless you find some real evidence. This is the first intelligent statement you've made.

ginosifu

I don't think I ever said I had proof it worked or didn't work, although I think it's a bunch of malarky hoisted on the gullible and I made a case for why it's probably not absorbed through the skin (and if it is, that's not necessarily a good thing).

And that's the whole problem. There is no proof. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims based on anecdotal evidence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In this day and age, faixapreta makes a valid point.
If there is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Jow, then there is no reason for anyone to believe it works, outside of personal experience.

[faxiapreta]

In this day and age, faixapreta makes a valid point.
If there is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Jow, then there is no reason for anyone to believe it works, outside of personal experience.

Question for you. You said you have a history of using jows. Have you paid someone money for these or for the recipes for these or were they given free of charge to you?

[Razaunida]

what percentage of things that you know and believe to be true are in truth facts...laws of nature?

[JamesC]

If you use a jow, believe it works, and it does(placebo effect), is it still a waste of money?

[TenTigers]

Aspartame is sanctioned by the FDA because Donald Rumsfeld had it pushed through while he headed that org. It isn't exactly what can be call proven, tested or safe and yet the FDA has allowed it on the market for years.

You want more examples of half thought out egregious decisions by government bureaucracies? Cause you can dig that all day long every day for days and days...

Have you considered that your lack of ability to read Chinese may be your greatest stumbling block to understanding? Why would you look to the FDA for Chinese medical knowledge? Surely you can't be that stupid? Or can you? :p

also, where do you think standard drugs come from? You do realize that most are found in herbs and such right? Oh you don't? Ok. Why didn't you say so?
aspartame has been linked to autoimmune dysfunctions such as MS, Lupus, etc.
Not to mention sacharrin, and don't even get me started on the ban of laetrile....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question for you. You said you have a history of using jows. Have you paid someone money for these or for the recipes for these or were they given free of charge to you?

Both cases.
I have gotten Jow for free to show how good it is, paid a small sum for samples, ordered some online and so forth.
I Have used them from TCM and some from TJM and even from the Filipino systems.

[faxiapreta]

If you use a jow, believe it works, and it does(placebo effect), is it still a waste of money?

That is a GREAT question.

Is something that provides a placebo effect a waste of money?

I would say, if it causes damage, it is.

We've already seen one person tout the dangers of using jow with DMSO. If jow is absorbed though the skin, it could have the same dangers.

Another person said it made his bones brittle.

If these things are true, then, despite the positive placebo effect, I'd say it is potentially more than a waste of money.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have placebo effects been known to reduce bruises and speed up their healing ?

[faxiapreta]

aspartame has been linked to autoimmune dysfunctions such as MS, Lupus, etc.
Not to mention sacharrin, and don't even get me started on the ban of laetrile....

If you want to talk about artificial sweeteners, start your own thread as a spinoff, as I did with this one.

[faxiapreta]

Both cases.
I have gotten Jow for free to show how good it is, paid a small sum for samples, ordered some online and so forth.
I Have used them from TCM and some from TJM and even from the Filipino systems.

So, people and companies sell this and have a financial interest in its effectiveness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, people and companies sell this and have a financial interest in its effectiveness.

I would think so.
Of course, as with many things, the proof is in the pudding right?
A company can cite tones of research on their product, but if it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work, right?

[Northwind]

Have placebo effects been known to reduce bruises and speed up their healing ?

A good troll will ignore any statement by the opposition that even hints that their lunacy is flawed.

[JamesC]

Have placebo effects been known to reduce bruises and speed up their healing ?

That I don't know.

I know that they have been shown to heal injured knees faster than a corrective knee surgery.

It was a group of people that all suffered from the same injury(running with incorrect form, overly padded shoes, etc.). All were sedated. Half were given the surgery, half weren't, but where given the incisions to look like they had.

All went through the same physical therapy and the people who did NOT recieve the surgery completely healed at the same rate, and faster as the ones that recieved it.

If it can heal an injured knee, why not a bruise?

If you'd like I can cite the source. It'll have to wait until I get home, though, since that is where the information is.

[faxiapreta]

Have placebo effects been known to reduce bruises and speed up their healing ?



A good troll will ignore any statement by the opposition that even hints that their lunacy is flawed.

Just because someone misses a post doesn't mean they are trolling. But thanks for bringing up a very good point regarding placebos and medicinal effectiveness.

There are volumes and volumes of research on the placebo effect of healing. There are also volumes and volumes of research on the healing effects of medication separated from the placebo effect.

Most studies of drugs have to be done in conjunction with a placebo.

Is there any scientific evidence for the healing effect of jow other than only the placebo effect?

NOPE, SORRY!

[David Jamieson]

There are volumes and volumes of research on the placebo effect of healing. there is ZERO on healing scar tissue in this way, hematoma or other types of wounds open or subcutaneous.


There are also volumes and volumes of research on the healing effects of medication separated from the placebo effect. Most studies of drugs have to be done in conjunction with a placebo. Most times there is no placebo effect with many drugs. IN cases where there is neuralgia etc, you see placebos work the most. But with active disease or wounds? yeah, they don't work.


Is there any scientific evidence for the healing effect of jow other than only the placebo effect?

NOPE!
Wrong. You must learn to do your homework and you have to stop going to pick apples off of the orange tree. It is an orange tree, it will not give you apples.

[Northwind]

faxia,

Do you think anyone here cares about your opinion? You've proven to be NOTHING but a TROLL. Well perhaps maybe an annoying @$$ as well, but hey.

[faxiapreta]

there is ZERO on healing scar tissue in this way, hematoma or other types of wounds open or subcutaneous.

Nor is there any scientific evidence for healing these things with jow.


Most times there is no placebo effect with many drugs. IN cases where there is neuralgia etc, you see placebos work the most. But with active disease or wounds? yeah, they don't work.

Whether the effect is working or not in a particular case, because the placebo effect is proven and well-known, drugs are compared with placebos to ensure the mitigation of this effect.



Wrong. You must learn to do your homework and you have to stop going to pick apples off of the orange tree. It is an orange tree, it will not give you apples.

Interesting how not one single person has been able to point to a peer reviewed scientific study comparing the healing properties of jow to a placebo.

You are simply another in that long line.

[faxiapreta]

faxia,

Do you think anyone here cares about your opinion? You've proven to be NOTHING but a TROLL. Well perhaps maybe an annoying @$$ as well, but hey.

Apparently they do. They keep arguing their unsupportable points with me.

Heck, I even have a thread made about me now. Who wuudda thunk so many people care about my opinion, huh?

[Northwind]

Apparently they do. They keep arguing their unsupportable points with me.

How about you do our work for us then and be a real value? If you think that it needs to be proven via whatever science you deem necessary, then YOU go prove it.

For us, it simply works and we need no other proof than that.

[David Jamieson]

Apparently they do. They keep arguing their unsupportable points with me.

Heck, I even have a thread made about me now. Who wuudda thunk so many people care about my opinion, huh?

uh, actually, they keep presenting you with the same content again and again because you reject it and get repetitious with your narrow and silly agenda to save us all from ourselves or some other misplaced intention. :p

This is in the hopes you aren't some troll.
But, somehow, I doubt it. lol

you reek of trollshido and knifefighter BS. reek of it. :rolleyes:

[faxiapreta]

How about you do our work for us then and be a real value? If you think that it needs to be proven via whatever science you deem necessary, then YOU go prove it.


That would be a waste of my time, considering the fact that most of it cannot be proven, because it more than likely doesn't work.


For us, it simply works and we need no other proof than that.

There's a guy downtown where I live who wears a foil helmet that he claims keeps the xrays from the sun from giving him brain tumors. That's all the proof he needs also. Works for him and it's good that the jow works for you. Congratulations on having all the proof you need also.

[David Jamieson]

That would be a waste of my time, considering the fact that most of it cannot be proven, because it more than likely doesn't work.



There's a guy downtown where I live who wears a foil helmet that he claims keeps the xrays from the sun from giving him brain tumors. That's all the proof he needs also. Works for him and it's good that the jow works for you. Congratulations on having all the proof you need also.

case in point.

[taai gihk yahn]

to date I have not seen a single valid or reliable study that supports the use of dit da jow for having accelerated or any effect on bruise healing; even if this could be demonstrated, the difficulty is that it would be difficult if not impossible to isolate the component(s) which are actually working to clear the bruise, as each jow contains many ingredients; also, the fact that the 'instructions" for jow use include vigorous and sustained massage of the jow into the bruise compounds the difficulty, as this could be the primary factor in the bruise healing more quickly;

of course, there has been a great deal of anecdotal reports of jow working but these cannot be generalized;

finally, as far as placebo, what has been shown is that placebo effect can impact systemic inflammation / pain, so it's not inconceivable that this might have an effect in regards to a bruise, if one's belief influences one's system overall to be predisposed towards parasympathetic tone...in other words, it's not a direct effect, but it's a two-step indirect...

[faxiapreta]

case in point.

Case in point that the people arguing for the effectiveness of a substance think the onus of proving that point is upon the person questioning the effectiveness.

The fact is, the onus is on the people making the claim to provide the proof.

[taai gihk yahn]

for those who say "it works and that's all the proof I need", that's fine, but you can't generalize, nor can you rule out the belief-predisposition; and that includes being told by your sifu "it works' before you try it - you are predisposed to his belief system; and this is fine, btw - if it works for you in that particular circumstance, it's great; but it may not be the actual jow (or it mayb - we just don't know for certain)

of course, chemical analysis on the various constituents of jow would be useful to determine things like analgesic properties, anticoagulant properties - this could b done rather easily, and would go a step in the right direction vis a vis determining the biochemical versus psychosomatic effects...

[teetsao]

the "placebo" effect on most dit da jows is very strong. it "placeboed" my aunts major bruises off her arms where she had fallen in 36hr.
it has placeboed my hands to be much thicker and harder than normal persons hands.
i just recently placeboed a guy who is a local mma practitioner into studying iron palm after he came to my house for a demo. when he first got here he was very uncertain,but as we are friends he kept an open mind and let me present myself. long story short,he left my house with a bottle of jow our dvd and the promise that i would sew him a bag to add steel shot to. he is excited to start and can see the placebo effect (read effectivness) of iron palm and dit da jow. he came over yesterday and the jow i had given him, "placeboed" away a knot on his shin he got in a recent grappling match. he then asked me why i dont set up shop at grappling and mma matches selling jow, i said,
"faxiapreta", when he questioned me about what i meant, then i showed him the threads on here,now remember he is a mma practitioner and competitor he said 1 word, "jacka$$", LOL,LOL,LOL
so from now on "faxiapreta" is my new word for anything "effed up,stupid,gay or otherwise just dumb". feel free to us it anyone as i will not charge.

[faxiapreta]

to date I have not seen a single valid or reliable study that supports the use of dit da jow for having accelerated or any effect on bruise healing; even if this could be demonstrated, the difficulty is that it would be difficult if not impossible to isolate the component(s) which are actually working to clear the bruise, as each jow contains many ingredients; also, the fact that the 'instructions" for jow use include vigorous and sustained massage of the jow into the bruise compounds the difficulty, as this could be the primary factor in the bruise healing more quickly;

of course, there has been a great deal of anecdotal reports of jow working but these cannot be generalized;

finally, as far as placebo, what has been shown is that placebo effect can impact systemic inflammation / pain, so it's not inconceivable that this might have an effect in regards to a bruise, if one's belief influences one's system overall to be predisposed towards parasympathetic tone...in other words, it's not a direct effect, but it's a two-step indirect...


http://www.farinofitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/up-arrow.jpg

This.

Finally. Another person who thinks with his brain.

[taai gihk yahn]

Case in point that the people arguing for the effectiveness of a substance think the onus of proving that point is upon the person questioning the effectiveness.

The fact is, the onus is on the people making the claim to provide the proof.

if they are attempting to generalize, yes; if they are speaking terms of their own subjective experience, no

[faxiapreta]

the "placebo" effect on most dit da jows is very strong. it "placeboed" my aunts major bruises off her arms where she had fallen in 36hr.
it has placeboed my hands to be much thicker and harder than normal persons hands.
i just recently placeboed a guy who is a local mma practitioner into studying iron palm after he came to my house for a demo. when he first got here he was very uncertain,but as we are friends he kept an open mind and let me present myself. long story short,he left my house with a bottle of jow our dvd and the promise that i would sew him a bag to add steel shot to. he is excited to start and can see the placebo effect (read effectivness) of iron palm and dit da jow. he came over yesterday and the jow i had given him, "placeboed" away a knot on his shin he got in a recent grappling match.

Case in point.



"faxiapreta", when he questioned me about what i meant, then i showed him the threads on here,now remember he is a mma practitioner and competitor he said 1 word, "jacka$$", LOL,LOL,LOL
so from now on "faxiapreta" is my new word for anything "effed up,stupid,gay or otherwise just dumb". feel free to us it anyone as i will not charge.

Maybe you missed the new rules for posting. They include not making personal insults. Please refrain from this in the future.

[David Jamieson]

Case in point that the people arguing for the effectiveness of a substance think the onus of proving that point is upon the person questioning the effectiveness.

The fact is, the onus is on the people making the claim to provide the proof.

The proof is this:

If I don't use jow on a bruise, it takes 10-14 days to dissipate.
I I do use jow on a bruise, it takes less than 5 days to heal completely and less depending on how deep and large the bruise is.

By observation, this is true of my classmates who use(d) it, my current training partners who use it and so on.

It is not a great secret medicine and there are alternatives. there's always alternatives.

Because of my own observations, the observations of my sifu, his sifu, and his kung fu brothers, all my classmates who ever got anywhere with pugilism and more than a few guys who practice other martial arts, I can say that dit da jow indeed works.

You claim it doesn't work. Prove to me that it doesn't work, because what is science but observation and measurement which is exactly what I used to come to my conclusion.

How did you ever arrive at yours? You must have gone through years of failed bruise healing to determine it ineffective right? That's what you did? And now, the millenium of tcm is invalidated because you did this right?

[taai gihk yahn]

the "placebo" effect on most dit da jows is very strong. it "placeboed" my aunts major bruises off her arms where she had fallen in 36hr.
again, belief markedly influences systemic inflammatory response; your aunt may have simply had a better than typical effect because of your giving her the jow, showing concern, and telling her it would help her; this increased her parasympathetic tone, and helped her body clear the bruise more quickly; or it may have been the biochemical effects of the jow; but u don't know which one until u test under conditions where each is factored out;


it has placeboed my hands to be much thicker and harder than normal persons hands.
no, ur continualy hitting a hard surface with your hands has done that


i just recently placeboed a guy who is a local mma practitioner into studying iron palm after he came to my house for a demo. when he first got here he was very uncertain,but as we are friends he kept an open mind and let me present myself. long story short,he left my house with a bottle of jow our dvd and the promise that i would sew him a bag to add steel shot to. he is excited to start and can see the placebo effect (read effectivness) of iron palm and dit da jow.
again, an anecdotal instance that you can hold true in and of itself, but cannot use to generalize to anything;


he came over yesterday and the jow i had given him, "placeboed" away a knot on his shin he got in a recent grappling match.
how much time did u spend rubbing in the jow? u can't discount that the physical application may have had the primary effect


he then asked me why i dont set up shop at grappling and mma matches selling jow, i said,
"faxiapreta", when he questioned me about what i meant, then i showed him the threads on here,now remember he is a mma practitioner and competitor he said 1 word, "jacka$$", LOL,LOL,LOL
so from now on "faxiapreta" is my new word for anything "effed up,stupid,gay or otherwise just dumb". feel free to us it anyone as i will not charge.
u r arguing from an emotional perspective, insofar as u have deep personal investment of your self-image vis a vis ur practice; while this is fine, it renders your ability to reason objectively practically non-existant;

[goju]

I came from a point like sanjuro . i was doing Makiwara training for a while before i used jow. When i finally decided to use it i noticed a big difference and i wasn't influenced by a belief predisposition.I found out about it on my own and decided to give it a try and see if it was any use. so i came in with a lets see if it works or not attitude.


I have since recommended it to family and friends of friends who have arthritis problems and they have raved about it after using it.

[taai gihk yahn]

The proof is this:

If I don't use jow on a bruise, it takes 10-14 days to dissipate.
I I do use jow on a bruise, it takes less than 5 days to heal completely and less depending on how deep and large the bruise is.

By observation, this is true of my classmates who use(d) it, my current training partners who use it and so on.

It is not a great secret medicine and there are alternatives. there's always alternatives.

Because of my own observations, the observations of my sifu, his sifu, and his kung fu brothers, all my classmates who ever got anywhere with pugilism and more than a few guys who practice other martial arts, I can say that dit da jow indeed works.

You claim it doesn't work. Prove to me that it doesn't work, because what is science but observation and measurement which is exactly what I used to come to my conclusion.

How did you ever arrive at yours? You must have gone through years of failed bruise healing to determine it ineffective right? That's what you did? And now, the millenium of tcm is invalidated because you did this right?

ur system may b predisposed to healing faster when u put the jow on - sort of a pavlovian effect; u may hav become conditioned on an autonomic level to clear inflammation more effectively when u put on jow

OTOH, it may b the jow that is actually working;

this is very simple to test: the next time u hav a bruise, have someone apply randomly a bottle of actual jow or a bottle of fake jow; have them blindfold you so u can't c if there is a color difference, and have them hold a bottle of something strong smelling (some essential oil or such) under your nose so u cant tell by the smell;

I think u can figure out the rest...

[faxiapreta]

again, belief markedly influences systemic inflammatory response; your aunt may have simply had a better than typical effect because of your giving her the jow, showing concern, and telling her it would help her; this increased her parasympathetic tone, and helped her body clear the bruise more quickly; or it may have been the biochemical effects of the jow; but u don't know which one until u test under conditions where each is factored out;


no, ur continualy hitting a hard surface with your hands has done that


again, an anecdotal instance that you can hold true in and of itself, but cannot use to generalize to anything;


how much time did u spend rubbing in the jow? u can't discount that the physical application may have had the primary effect


u r arguing from an emotional perspective, insofar as u have deep personal investment of your self-image vis a vis ur practice; while this is fine, it renders your ability to reason objectively practically non-existant;

Quoted to show what critical thinking entails.

[faxiapreta]

this is very simple to test: the next time u hav a bruise, have someone apply randomly a bottle of actual jow or a bottle of fake jow; have them blindfold you so u can't c if there is a color difference, and have them hold a bottle of something strong smelling (some essential oil or such) under your nose so u cant tell by the smell;

I think u can figure out the rest...

Yes, and then do this a variety of other times with a variety of other people and you have the beginnings of some actual fact-based evidence.

Of course you do have to make sure the bruises are about the same size and color each time.

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.farinofitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/up-arrow.jpg

This.

Finally. Another person who thinks with his brain.

well, it's one side of it; u r convinced it doesn't work, without gathering evidence to support ur assertion - absence of proof is not proof of absence; the best we can say right now is "we don't know"; meaning that if the jow users are happy to go with their subjective beliefs that what they r doing works for themselves, then fine, let them have it, they are getting a valid effect, but it's not because of what's actually in the jow - if they r satisfied enough not to want to discern which one it is, whatever; BUT if they want to generalize reliably and validly, they can't (meaning that they can't say that it will work on someone who does not believe in it, or who doesn't have a personal association with the person appiying the jow, like teesao's aunt);

otoh, we can't say that it's NOT biochemically having an effect, becuase we haven't tested it one way or the other;

u simply need to do chemical analysis and then double blind random testing to see what's what;

THAT is thinking with the brain; whoesale accpetance OR rejection at this point is not;

the problem is that most people can't stand living with ambiguity, and so gravitate towarsd one point of "certainty" or the other...and then they yell at those on the other end of the spectrum (and when they read what i write, they take in only the parts that support their perspective and throw me over to the other side as well, lol)

[David Jamieson]

ur system may b predisposed to healing faster when u put the jow on - sort of a pavlovian effect; u may hav become conditioned on an autonomic level to clear inflammation more effectively when u put on jow

OTOH, it may b the jow that is actually working;

this is very simple to test: the next time u hav a bruise, have someone apply randomly a bottle of actual jow or a bottle of fake jow; have them blindfold you so u can't c if there is a color difference, and have them hold a bottle of something strong smelling (some essential oil or such) under your nose so u cant tell by the smell;

I think u can figure out the rest...

...

I started with fencing, moved to Karate, then boxing, then tkd, then kickboxing and finally Kung Fu. I have plenty of time in questioning and trying things.

I do know for a fact that my bruise heal in 10-14 days without jow, less than 5 with it.

about 7 or so with just vigorous massage combined with heat following the drop in any swelling.

jow is quick. I'm not going to do faxia's "science for him. lol I already did my science for me. :)

why on earth would I go through trying placebo tests with something I know works. I don't do it with aspirin and I don't do it with anti-biotics. Oh! THere's one you could try faxia, see how placebos act on pus filled infections!

report back.

seriously, placebos? talk about wander down the garden path.

fax- go to your club if you have one. Get your standard bruises, if you bother to tussle. get some jow. try it on your bruise.

report back.

..step!

[faxiapreta]

taai gihk yahn- can you speak to dermal absorption of jow and the potential positive and negative effects of this?

[taai gihk yahn]

Yes, and then do this a variety of other times with a variety of other people and you have the beginnings of some actual fact-based evidence.
ok, yes, this is "brain thinking" :D


Of course you do have to make sure the bruises are about the same size and color each time.

to some degree - you would have to come up with some set of relatively objective criteria to assess efficacy - it could b a number of different things, size, shape, color, tenderness - it would be interesting; if u have a baseline for each individual bruise, then you could have a range of various sizes and shapes and intensities and would still have valid results as u would compare the change within a given bruise to ones that don't get the jow;

it woud be an intersting study

[David Jamieson]

taai gihk yahn- can you speak to dermal absorption of jow and the potential positive and negative effects of this?

why do you avoid every solution offered you and return to your same question?

[faxiapreta]

why on earth would I go through trying placebo tests with something I know works. I don't do it with aspirin and I don't do it with anti-biotics. Oh! THere's one you could try faxia, see how placebos act on pus filled infections!

You don't have to test aspirin and antibiotics. The FDA and the drug manufacturers have already done that for you.

[faxiapreta]

why do you avoid every solution offered you and return to your same question?

Because someone with some critical thinking ability showed up to post and can give some actual insight into the matter. I thought it might be interesting to revisit the question with someone who has this thinking ability.

I'd like to know what someone who seems to have an actual grasp of the matter, as well as a health-field background could offer in terms of a well-thought-out opinion.

[taai gihk yahn]

...

I started with fencing, moved to Karate, then boxing, then tkd, then kickboxing and finally Kung Fu. I have plenty of time in questioning and trying things.

I do know for a fact that my bruise heal in 10-14 days without jow, less than 5 with it.

about 7 or so with just vigorous massage combined with heat following the drop in any swelling.

jow is quick. I'm not going to do faxia's "science for him. lol I already did my science for me. :)

why on earth would I go through trying placebo tests with something I know works. I don't do it with aspirin and I don't do it with anti-biotics. Oh! THere's one you could try faxia, see how placebos act on pus filled infections!

report back.

seriously, placebos? talk about wander down the garden path.

fax- go to your club if you have one. Get your standard bruises, if you bother to tussle. get some jow. try it on your bruise.

report back.

..step!

placebo effect does one thing - it engages the system's drive towards homeostasis and boosts it; on somethings this works fine, on other things it doesn't; it also works better in some people than it does in others - so it is a demonstrated effect, but it is inconsistent from one person to another, as it is impacted by things like degree of belief, dgree of baseline state, including intrinsic constitutional type, etc.; so it is present, but inconsistent in it's manifestation;

as far as why u wud want to do it, hey, that's up to u - if u personally don't feel the need to "prove" it to urself, and if u don't feel the need to GENERALIZE the effects, then absolutely, there woud be no reason at all for u to engage in the experiement; it's just a suggestion if u wanted to c if ur personal results cud b generalized to a situation that doesn't involve placebo effect;

what u do for urself is empirical, but it's not scientific; there's a difference...

[David Jamieson]

You don't have to test aspirin and antibiotics. The FDA and the drug manufacturers have already done that for you.

I have already tested teh jows I've used.

I find a couple of behind the counter varieties to be of little value.

What is uncritical about my approach?

and are you going to try using jow?

You seem to be claiming you're a see it to believe type person.

I'm sure you can access several different types , qualities and strengths of jow.
heck DD can hook you up with several varieties.

[taai gihk yahn]

taai gihk yahn- can you speak to dermal absorption of jow and the potential positive and negative effects of this?

not really, as I am not biochemist; what I do know is that in PT dermal absorbtion of anti-inflammatory chemicals (e.g. - dexamethazone) is usually aided by phonophoresis or iontophoresis, meaning that topical application is supposedly not enough to get anything more than superficial effect; to drive something below the surface u need some assistance beyond what rubbing it in would do (in fact, it was something I was talking about w a prof in school years ago as a way to factor out the mechanical massaging in aspect to see if jow had an effect on its own...)

but then again, there is a lot of stuff used in PT that is still questionable (ike ultrasound - seems like people r finally waking up to the fact that it doesn't do shiite, lol)

[Dale Dugas]

I can send you several samples to use in your experiment.

Just post up a snail mail address and it shall be done.

[David Jamieson]

placebo effect does one thing - it engages the system's drive towards homeostasis and boosts it; on somethings this works fine, on other things it doesn't; it also works better in some people than it does in others - so it is a demonstrated effect, but it is inconsistent from one person to another, as it is impacted by things like degree of belief, dgree of baseline state, including intrinsic constitutional type, etc.; so it is present, but inconsistent in it's manifestation;

as far as why u wud want to do it, hey, that's up to u - if u personally don't feel the need to "prove" it to urself, and if u don't feel the need to GENERALIZE the effects, then absolutely, there woud be no reason at all for u to engage in the experiement; it's just a suggestion if u wanted to c if ur personal results cud b generalized to a situation that doesn't involve placebo effect;

what u do for urself is empirical, but it's not scientific; there's a difference...

the process of elimination is fairly similar. when I use more ineffective jows, it is obvious that I should not buy that particular brand. lol.

placebo effect is still an anomaly.

It will never work with sever infection, open wounds etc.
It is in a smaller realm of medicine that placebos see usage.

also, lets talk ingredients specifically instead of the colloquial term "dit da jow".

It is commonly in liniment form. Do you suppose muscle, and anti neuralgic with blood flow increase liniment would be more understandable for people? Or is it because it's a foreign language, used in a foreign activity that it is rejected by individuals such as fax?

I'm sure he doesn't hang at the A5-35 forum and tell them their ointment doesn't relieve pain and isn't absorbed through the skin! lol

So, ingredients in a common jow and what their efficacy is may help him understand. how alcohol allows herbs through skin is something he needs to understand and also how massage combined with the vehicle lets the herbs into the skin quicker.


maybe it's just the terminology that is tripping him up?

[faxiapreta]

not really, as I am not biochemist; what I do know is that in PT dermal absorbtion of anti-inflammatory chemicals (e.g. - dexamethazone) is usually aided by phonophoresis or iontophoresis, meaning that topical application is supposedly not enough to get anything more than superficial effect; to drive something below the surface u need some assistance beyond what rubbing it in would do (in fact, it was something I was talking about w a prof in school years ago as a way to factor out the mechanical massaging in aspect to see if jow had an effect on its own...)

Based on what you know regarding dermal absorption, what is your opinion of the ability of jow to be absorbed through the skin to provide a healing effect for an underlying tissue injury?

Also, based on your knowledge of dermal absorption, what is your opinion of the ability of jow to be absorbed through the skin to provide an effect that increases bone density?

[faxiapreta]

placebo effect is still an anomaly..

I'll let taai gihk yahn speak to that fallacy.

[Northwind]

for those who say "it works and that's all the proof I need", that's fine, but you can't generalize, nor can you rule out the belief-predisposition; and that includes being told by your sifu "it works' before you try it - you are predisposed to his belief system; and this is fine, btw - if it works for you in that particular circumstance, it's great; but it may not be the actual jow (or it mayb - we just don't know for certain)

of course, chemical analysis on the various constituents of jow would be useful to determine things like analgesic properties, anticoagulant properties - this could b done rather easily, and would go a step in the right direction vis a vis determining the biochemical versus psychosomatic effects...

I would be the one who says that.
The point you're missing is that I, for one, do not care whatsoever about any sort of chemical analysis of it; I do not care whatsoever if it's just cuz my sifu says it works; nor do I care if it's the beloved placebo. I use it and it works.

[David Jamieson]

I'll let taai gihk yahn speak to that fallacy.

fallacy?

you tell me the bodies of medicine that use it?

research in pharmacological studies.

and as tgy is not a biochemist, why leave it to him. He's not a pharmacologist either, why leave it to him? Are you attempting to cozy to someone who has given you a break? (I personally think a few guys are being to easy on you and your repetitions, but I attribute that to them having spent too much time with Dave Ross :p )

TCM is not conventional medicine, in fact, it falls more in line with what is commonly called "heroic medicine" which is mostly around stressing an already stressed body, so why try to fit that round peg into the square hole you have created for yourself?

Why don't you simply take dale up on his offer and try it for yourself and see for yourself. It's all too obvious you don't believe what we are telling you or what our experiences are.

If you are not comfortable with that, I'm sure anyone can direct you to several different brands that have a good track record that you can buy from behind the counter and try.

You can have your own empirical evidence within a matter of days if you chose to do so! It can happen! you CAN understand! :)

Seems simple enough right?

[faxiapreta]

I would be the one who says that.
The point you're missing is that I, for one, do not care whatsoever about any sort of chemical analysis of it; I do not care whatsoever if it's just cuz my sifu says it works; nor do I care if it's the beloved placebo. I use it and it works.\

That's pretty much what the tin foil hat guy downtown says when I ask him about how is hat works.

[faxiapreta]

fallacy?

you tell me the bodies of medicine that use it?

Here are some of the things that have been shown to be affected by the placebo effect.


Asthma
Benign prostatic enlargement
Crohn's disease
Depression
Epilepsy
Erectile dysfunction
Food allergy
Gastric and duodenal ulcers
Headache
Heart failure, congestive
Herpes simplex
Hypertension
Irritable bowel syndrome
Migraine prophylaxis
Multiple sclerosis
Nausea
Pain
Panic disorders
Parkinson's disease
Psoriatic arthritis
Reflux esophagitis
Rheumatic diseases
Molar extraction swelling
Ulcerative colitis




60% of Israel physicians found have used placebos in their medical practice.

50% of American doctors use placebos.

20% of Canadian doctors use placebos.

48% of Danish general practitioners have prescribed a placebo antibiotics for viral infections, and vitamins for fatigue.




and as tgy is not a biochemist, why leave it to him. He's not a pharmacologist either, why leave it to him?

He simply discredits your arguments a bit more eloquently that I do.



Why don't you simply take dale up on his offer and try it for yourself and see for yourself. It's all too obvious you don't believe what we are telling you or what our experiences are.

Because I understand all the effort and trouble I would need to go through to attempt to validate something I wouldn't even need to use in the first place.



You can have your own empirical evidence within a matter of days if you chose to do so! It can happen! you CAN understand! :)

It takes more than a few days and is far from simple.

[David Jamieson]

Here are some of the things that have been shown to be affected by the placebo effect.


Asthma
Benign prostatic enlargement
Crohn's disease]
Depression
Epilepsy
Erectile dysfunction[
Food allergy
Gastric and duodenal ulcers[
Headache
Heart failure, congestive
Herpes simplex
Hypertension
Irritable bowel syndrome
Migraine prophylaxis[
Multiple sclerosis
Nausea
Pain
Panic disorders
Parkinson's disease
Psoriatic arthritis[
Reflux esophagitis
Rheumatic diseases
Molar extraction swelling
Ulcerative colitis




60% of Israel physicians found have used placebos in their medical practice.

50% of American doctors use placebos.

20% of Canadian doctors use placebos.

48% of Danish general practitioners have prescribed a placebo antibiotics for viral infections, and vitamins for fatigue.

You do realize this is a drop in the bucket right. Also, because it was used has ZERO bearing on efficacy or consistency of efficacy.






He simply discredits your arguments a bit more eloquently that I do. He discredited nothing I said. He pointed out his observations and stated his opinions based on what he knows. Yes he is an eloquent species of svelt bear isn't he? A lovely man I am certain. No offense TGY, I mean that in a strictly platonic way. :D





Because I understand all the effort and trouble I would need to go through to attempt to validate something I wouldn't even need to use in the first place. wow, just wow! And yet you demand it of people here even though right here you reject it outright without ever having tried it. Hmmmn, it's gonna be hard for you to credit anything, never mind discredit. This isn't critical, it's lazy and abusive.





It takes more than a few days and is far from simple. No, it doesn't take long, yeah, probably more than a few days, but otherwise quite simple. Would you like directions for templates on how to quickly organize a control group and how to conduct a test? that is readily available. Most of us learned how in high school or earlier.

If you just want empirical evidence, then yeah, it only takes a few days and a couple of bruises and maybe three varieties of jow.

[Northwind]

\
That's pretty much what the tin foil hat guy downtown says when I ask him about how is hat works.

Great! Maybe you should go debate with him then.
Or maybe you should prove that you are not the result of a placebo effect to us. We've seen nothing about who you are at all, so, mr. tin foil hat, prove your existence, you annoying little gnat.

[David Jamieson]

Great! Maybe you should go debate with him then.
Or maybe you should prove that you are not the result of a placebo effect to us. We've seen nothing about who you are at all, so, mr. tin foil hat, prove your existence, you annoying little gnat.

It's Dale Gribble the Lawn Jockey that was formerly the non-artist known as knife fighter.

Mind you, it might not be either.

This guy "seems" a little more well educated.

But then, it could be a chick too.

who knows. Just a net ghost being all drama for the most part.
Certainly freed me from a boring drag through SQL queries today though. :)

[faxiapreta]

wow, just wow! And yet you demand it of people here even though right here you reject it outright without ever having tried it. Hmmmn, it's gonna be hard for you to credit anything, never mind discredit. This isn't critical, it's lazy and abusive.

I never said I've never tried it. I've tried it plenty.

I said I'm not interested in going through the rigamarole of doing an objective testing protocol that involves a decent sample size.



No, it doesn't take long, yeah, probably more than a few days, but otherwise quite simple. Would you like directions for templates on how to quickly organize a control group and how to conduct a test? that is readily available. Most of us learned how in high school or earlier..

If you just want empirical evidence, then yeah, it only takes a few days and a couple of bruises and maybe three varieties of jow.

A few days for an injury to heal time several different injuries of roughly the same type and severity times each protocol plus a number of different subjects = far more than a few days.

[ginosifu]

Fraxiapreta:

I am going to help you the best I can for right now. Like I said before I don't remember all the old stuff I researched years ago but I will give you leads on researching some of this stuff your self.

This is a list of common herbal products found in Jow. There Chinese name + there english name and links to where you can find info about them.

CHINESE NAME - ENGLISH NAME - LINKS

San Qi - Panax Notogensing http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/bulkherbs/notoginseng.htm

Hong Hua - Safflower http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/safflower.html

Moyao - Myrrh http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/23/products_id/41

Dang Gui - Angelica http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories&category=11&vendor=&product=161&pg=

Zhang Nao - Camphor http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/23/products_id/100

Ru Xiang - Frankencence http://alternativehealing.org/ru_xiang.htm

This can be a start to research TCM and herbalism. Another product of research can be types of alcohol used. The traditional Chinese alcohol was Ring Wine (Liquor). I use Vodka it's a bit cheaper but not quite as viscuous as Rice Wine.

I also gave you several different websites and there are plenty more out there.

ginosifu

[Razaunida]

thread closed

[faxiapreta]

Fraxiapreta:

I am going to help you the best I can for right now. Like I said before I don't remember all the old stuff I researched years ago but I will give you leads on researching some of this stuff your self.

This is a list of common herbal products found in Jow. There Chinese name + there english name and links to where you can find info about them.

CHINESE NAME - ENGLISH NAME - LINKS

San Qi - Panax Notogensing http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/bulkherbs/notoginseng.htm

Hong Hua - Safflower http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/safflower.html

Moyao - Myrrh http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/23/products_id/41

Dang Gui - Angelica http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories&category=11&vendor=&product=161&pg=

Zhang Nao - Camphor http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/23/products_id/100

Ru Xiang - Frankencence http://alternativehealing.org/ru_xiang.htm

This can be a start to research TCM and herbalism. Another product of research can be types of alcohol used. The traditional Chinese alcohol was Ring Wine (Liquor). I use Vodka it's a bit cheaper but not quite as viscuous as Rice Wine.

I also gave you several different websites and there are plenty more out there.

ginosifu

Those are links to herbs I got from the other guy, which I looked into.

Like I said, I was unable to find scientific evidence for what you guys are claiming.

[David Jamieson]

I never said I've never tried it. I've tried it plenty.

I said I'm not interested in going through the rigamarole of doing an objective testing protocol that involves a decent sample size. ...then why do you rag on people to present you with it? Seems a bit arbitrary, seems a bit of a ghost chase, seems like you are wasting our time here looking for scientific evidence we've told you doesn't exist in the format you are asking for it in.

However, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence and reams of empirical data to support the truth of it.

Can you prove the sky is blue? Scientifically and if so, what shade is it? Why is it that particular shade sometimes but not others. You see, some of that you could totally prove with scientific method and a lot of it is empirical or self evident through direct observation. Why do you think that self evidential evidence is unacceptable. Also, if you are convinced that jow doesn't work, may I ask what types you used and what for?





A few days for an injury to heal time several different injuries of roughly the same type and severity times each protocol plus a number of different subjects = far more than a few days. I believe I already spoke to that point at the end of my last post. Gee thanks for paying attention! :mad:



Do you know that they use drugs that are FDA approved and in active use that they do NOT know how they work at all and are just happy that they do through pleasant surprise!


How do drugs prevent seizures? Strange to say, most of the drugs used in treating epilepsy today were discovered to have anti-epileptic properties by chance. We have used these drugs with great benefit for years without really knowing how they work.

drugs such as; Dilantin, Tegretol, Epilim.
They've been studied and they know that these drugs work but they do NOT know why they work.

So, that's a major affliction, far beyond something such as minor as a bruise or microfracture.

The world is not black and white. Your entire premise is off and your meaning for being here in this forum is suspect.

[faxiapreta]

...then why do you rag on people to present you with it?

Because they are the ones using it and making claims for it.

I have no interest in using it unless there is some actual scientific evidence. Even then, my injuries heal fine and my bones are plenty strong enough.



Also, if you are convinced that jow doesn't work, may I ask what types you used and what for?

I have no idea what the ingredients were. I got them from people who swore by them. I used them for tissue soreness, bruises, sprains, scars, and injuries.



Do you know that they use drugs that are FDA approved and in active use that they do NOT know how they work at all and are just happy that they do through pleasant surprise!

And they test them first in controlled studies, often against placebos.

[David Jamieson]

Because they are the ones using it and making claims for it.

I have no interest in using it unless there is some actual scientific evidence. Even then, my injuries heal fine and my bones are plenty strong enough.




I have no idea what the ingredients were. I got them from people who swore by them. I used them for tissue soreness, bruises, sprains, scars, and injuries.




And they test them first in controlled studies, often against placebos.

Now you are in circles. I just told you that they worked by surprise. They were accidents and TO DATE have no explanation for how they work. Why you trying to change that point?

your argument is getting more and more invalid.

better get geordy laforge working on your shields there cap'n!
before the romulans de-cloak and shoot some common sense into your bulkheads. :p

[faxiapreta]

Now you are in circles. I just told you that they worked by surprise. They were accidents and TO DATE have no explanation for how they work. Why you trying to change that point?


"Working by surprise" is irrelevant. Lots of things "work by surprise". What is relevant (and telling compared to the jow arguement) is that they are tested to flesh out whether or not they have the ability to "work" consistently and in a reproducible manner and to determine the extent of any dangerous side effects.

[David Jamieson]

"Working by surprise" is irrelevant. Lots of things "work by surprise". What is relevant (and telling compared to the jow arguement) is that they are tested to flesh out whether or not they have the ability to "work" consistently and in a reproducible manner and to determine the extent of any dangerous side effects.

And after hundreds of years of Jow production and use, suddenly you are born, somehow grow up and make it all the way into this forum to proclaim that it is all wrong and we are all stupid because we can't give you what doesn't exist in the format which you are demanding it.

You're not making any sense at all now.

You excuse one hand whilst allowing the other.

I wonder what sort of relationships you have in real life. I have a sneaking feeling that some of them are pretty strained due to your bullheadedness. :p

[Dale Dugas]

So you will not use anything unless its backed up by scientific proof, yet you are worried about side effects. Western Pharmaceticals are rampant with various drugs that in the beginning work wonders, and then people start having serious problems with them.

Big Pharma has ridiculous amounts of drugs that are proven to do many things, and then people start dying, have rather serious side effects, and then the drugs are taken off the market.

So where is your argument here? You cannot have it both ways.

No one has died using my liniments, nor any that I know of in the USA.

Bextra has killed more people than Dit Da Jow.

You, sir, have something seriously wrong with you.

good luck in life, you are seriously going to need it.

[faxiapreta]

So you will not use anything unless its backed up by scientific proof, yet you are worried about side effects. Western Pharmaceticals are rampant with various drugs that in the beginning work wonders, and then people start having serious problems with them.

Big Pharma has ridiculous amounts of drugs that are proven to do many things, and then people start dying, have rather serious side effects, and then the drugs are taken off the market.

So where is your argument here? You cannot have it both ways.

No one has died using my liniments, nor any that I know of in the USA.

Bextra has killed more people than Dit Da Jow.

You, sir, have something seriously wrong with you.

good luck in life, you are seriously going to need it.

As I stated in the earlier, more than likely your liniments are doing nothing other than giving a placebo effect.

That being said, if we were to assume that your treatments did have some type of medicinal effect, they more than likely do have some type of side effects, maybe of the longer-term variety. If this is the case, you may very well be doing significant damage over the long term.

By not doing scientific testing in an attempt to determine these side effects you are essentially acting in an immoral manner.

Fortunately for the people using these products, they are probably simply inert and have no effect one way or the other.

[Dale Dugas]

I have had enough of this fool.

David, leave it be.

This net ghost is not worth the trouble.

Good luck in life, you are going to need it.

Watch out for those Western drugs as the side effects will get you.

[faxiapreta]

I have had enough of this fool.

I don't believe I called you any names. Don't call me any in the future.


Watch out for those Western drugs as the side effects will get you.

Thanks, but I try to stay away from those, also.

[faxiapreta]

Big Pharma has ridiculous amounts of drugs that are proven to do many things, and then people start dying, have rather serious side effects, and then the drugs are taken off the market.

Actually, that brings up another good point.

The Big Phama vs. the small time quacks.

Does Big Pharma have political influence and market drugs which sometimes turn out to be unsafe. Yes, without a doubt. However, it is at least under public scrutiny and is subject to testing and recall of damaging products.

Meanwhile, the small time quacks are not regulated and sneak under the radar, prescribing unsafe or ineffective remedies and cause more serious complications that then have to be treated by the drugs from Big Pharma.

Here's betting the small time quacks are responsible for more damage than Big Pharma.

[wenshu]

http://www.pharmer.org/files/images/fentanyl%20patch1.JPG

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1705000/images/_1706805_nicorette300.jpg

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/images_81830/T_BC_the-patch.gif

http://blog.mjbud.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/hashOil.jpg


Important Safety Information

Some people have had changes in behavior, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions while using CHANTIX to help them quit smoking. Some people had these symptoms when they began taking CHANTIX, and others developed them after several weeks of treatment or after stopping CHANTIX. If you, your family, or caregiver notice agitation, hostility, depression, or changes in behavior, thinking, or mood that are not typical for you, or you develop suicidal thoughts or actions, anxiety, panic, aggression, anger, mania, abnormal sensations, hallucinations, paranoia, or confusion, stop taking CHANTIX and call your doctor right away. Also tell your doctor about any history of depression or other mental health problems before taking CHANTIX, as these symptoms may worsen while taking CHANTIX.

Do not take CHANTIX if you have had a serious allergic or skin reaction to CHANTIX. Some people can have serious skin reactions while taking CHANTIX, some of which can become life-threatening. These can include rash, swelling, redness, and peeling of the skin. Some people can have allergic reactions to CHANTIX, some of which can be life-threatening and include: swelling of the face, mouth, and throat that can cause trouble breathing. If you have these symptoms or have a rash with peeling skin or blisters in your mouth, stop taking CHANTIX and get medical attention right away.

The most common side effects include nausea (30%), sleep problems, constipation, gas and/or vomiting. If you have side effects that bother you or don't go away, tell your doctor. You may have trouble sleeping, vivid, unusual or strange dreams while taking CHANTIX. Use caution driving or operating machinery until you know how CHANTIX may affect you.

CHANTIX should not be taken with other quit-smoking products. You may need a lower dose of CHANTIX if you have kidney problems or get dialysis.

Before starting CHANTIX, tell your doctor if you are pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or if you take insulin, asthma medicines, or blood thinners. Medicines like these may work differently when you quit smoking.


Gabapentin
you should know that your mental health may change in unexpected ways and you may become suicidal (thinking about harming or killing yourself or planning or trying to do so) while you are taking gabapentin for the treatment of epilepsy, mental illness, or other conditions. A small number of adults and children 5 years of age and older (about 1 in 500 people) who took antiepileptics such as gabapentin to treat various conditions during clinical studies became suicidal during their treatment. Some of these people developed suicidal thoughts and behavior as early as one week after they started taking the medication. There is a risk that you may experience changes in your mental health if you take an antiepileptic medication such as gabapentin, but there may also be a risk that you will experience changes in your mental health if your condition is not treated. You and your doctor will decide whether the risks of taking an antiepileptic medication are greater than the risks of not taking the medication. You, your family, or your caregiver should call your doctor right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: panic attacks; agitation or restlessness; new or worsening irritability, anxiety, or depression; acting on dangerous impulses; difficulty falling or staying asleep; aggressive, angry, or violent behavior; mania (frenzied, abnormally excited mood); talking or thinking about wanting to hurt yourself or end your life; withdrawing from friends and family; preoccupation with death and dying; giving away prized possessions; or any other unusual changes in behavior or mood. Be sure that your family or caregiver knows which symptoms may be serious so they can call the doctor if you are unable to seek treatment on your own.


MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX may cause you to fall asleep without warning during daily activities, including talking, eating, and driving, which may result in accidents. Tell your doctor if you feel new or increased sleepiness while taking MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX. Do not drive a car, operate a machine, or do anything that needs you to be alert until you know how MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX affects you.
Before taking MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX, talk to your doctor about all of your medical conditions, including if you feel sleepy during the day. Tell your doctor if you drink alcohol or take other medications that make you drowsy, as these can increase the chance that MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX will make you feel sleepy or fall asleep when you should be awake.
When taking MIRAPEX ER or MIRAPEX, hallucinations (unreal visions, sounds or sensations) may occur and you may sometimes feel dizzy, nauseated, faint or sweaty when you sit up or stand quickly.
Some patients taking certain medicines to treat PD, including MIRAPEX ER and MIRAPEX, have reported problems, such as gambling, compulsive eating, compulsive buying, and increased sex drive. If you or your family members notice that you are developing unusual urges or behaviors, talk to your doctor.
The most common side effects in people taking MIRAPEX ER for early PD are sleepiness, nausea and vomiting, constipation, dizziness, tiredness, hallucinations, dry mouth, muscle spasms, and edema (swelling of the feet and ankles).
The most common side effects in people taking MIRAPEX ER who have later-stage PD are abnormal movements, nausea, constipation, hallucinations, headache, and anorexia.
The most common side effects in people taking MIRAPEX for PD are nausea, dizziness, sleepiness, constipation, hallucinations, insomnia, muscle weakness, confusion, and abnormal movements.

[alchemist]

DMSO is not all that safe, and if it was, you would see it used more. It is controversial to say the least.

I am a little nervous as certain new members keep posting about it.

NEVER mix DMSO with anything as it will take whatever has been dissolved in it and help it cross through the skin into the blood.

This is extremely dangerious, and needs to be addressed here.

Never use DMSO to make Dit Da Jow, period. The herbs dissolved in alcohol and water are a much better, and safer medium to use than DMSO.

You cannot control how much of a substance/chemical/substrate will be absorbed through the skin into the blood stream.

For the people who keep posting its uses, stop. You are not health care professionals.

Yes... I did not mention, as I should have, that the external usage of DMSO increases the ability of anything mixed with it to be absorbed by the skin. So for example, if you added some kind of skin lotion to it (because DMSO smells weird) then you would be absorbing all the nasty chemicals in the lotion far more efficiently. And no... Mixing it with jow would be a risky venture...

Having said that, there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence for its benefits when being externally used as an anti-inflammatory. It has never been tested in a double-blind study because it is too difficult to formulate a placebo with the same smell and taste. I imagine that there is little interest in it pharmaceutically because it is an unpatentable basic chemical compound.

There have been less rigorous studies of it and no appreciable toxicity level has ever been found.

Perhaps I was too enthusiastic in my mention of it.

I don't think though we have to be health care professionals to talk about a positive or negative health-related experience. If so, this entire thread would not exist.

I think anecdotal evidence is valid. It is part of the power of Chinese herbs. They have been keeping written records for so long that a great deal of empirical knowledge about what works and what doesn't has been stored. So...

Some Jow formulas do work and rather well. We don't need a pharmaceutical double-blind study because we have thousands of years of written case studies in Chinese herbal medicine literature to back up the uses of Chinese herbs.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why is everyone having so much trouble finding scientific writings on Jow?

I googled ONE ingredient common to most Jows and in 0.19 seconds, a scientific review popped up at the top of page one.

In that published review, the conclusion was that Gu Sui Bu does in fact have potential effects on the bone cells culture

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12099280

My search was "Topical Gu Sui Bu"

Need I say more?

[David Jamieson]

Why is everyone having so much trouble finding scientific writings on Jow?

I googled ONE ingredient common to most Jows and in 0.19 seconds, a scientific review popped up at the top of page one.

In that published review, the conclusion was that Gu Sui Bu does in fact have potential effects on the bone cells culture

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12099280

My search was "Topical Gu Sui Bu"

Need I say more?

No not at all.
I think what's at issue is that this guy is just a troll making statements and avoiding truth.
nothing new really is it? :)

[faxiapreta]

Yes... I did not mention, as I should have, that the external usage of DMSO increases the ability of anything mixed with it to be absorbed by the skin. So for example, if you added some kind of skin lotion to it (because DMSO smells weird) then you would be absorbing all the nasty chemicals in the lotion far more efficiently. And no... Mixing it with jow would be a risky venture....

Mixing jow with DMSO would be a risky venture, but rubbing it on the skin so that it will be absorbed into the skin is not a risky venture?

Do you see the problem with this line of thinking?

[faxiapreta]

Why is everyone having so much trouble finding scientific writings on Jow?

I googled ONE ingredient common to most Jows and in 0.19 seconds, a scientific review popped up at the top of page one.

In that published review, the conclusion was that Gu Sui Bu does in fact have potential effects on the bone cells culture

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12099280

My search was "Topical Gu Sui Bu"

Need I say more?

LOL... did you actually read the abstract and understand what they were doing?

They were adding Gu-Sui-Bu directly to rat bone cells in a culture. Do you understand what that means? That means they took rat bone cells, put them in a culture dish and added Gu-Sui-Bu into that culture.

Adding a chemical to a bone cell culture is 180 degrees different that rubbing in on human skin as part of a jow mixture. If you wanted to extrapolate and use this study as a basis for application, you would have to inject Gu-Sui-Bu directly into your bones.

This study shows zero correlation to rubbing Gu-Sui-Bu into a human's skin.

Critical thinking folks. Something that should be taught in high school, but apparently isn't.

[hskwarrior]

They were adding Gu-Sui-Bu directly to rat bone cells in a culture. Do you understand what that means? That means they took rat bone cells, put them in a culture dish and added Gu-Sui-Bu into that culture.

LOL at repeating yourself.

[faxiapreta]

LOL at repeating yourself.

Just a little repetition to make it sink in. Considering he seemed to miss it in the abstract.

[wenshu]

You overestimate your own critical thinking abilities.

The fundamental basis of critical thinking is the ability to question one's own assumptions, prejudices and motivations.

Fanatical adherence to a predetermined agenda precludes critical thinking of any sort.

Be clear, it does not matter what "proof" anyone offers you, you will reject it outright all the while pontificating about "skeptical critical thinking" in order to conform to your own agenda.

You can cloak yourself in the language of Pyrrhonistic skepticism all you want, but you are just as misguided and fanatical as Wong Kiew Kit and his followers.
You're entire argument is predicated on some presumed infallibility of the scientific method.

Seriously though, what happened? Did a TCM specialist finger **** your cat or something?

Why are you consumed with this need to convince the 4 or 5 people who read this forum that you are some champion of skepticism? Especially with regards to something as minuscule and obscure as IP?

Maybe PTSD from being repeatedly choked out with your face buried in some other dude's fermented urine, feces and sweat reeking taint?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Seriously though, what heppened? Did a TCM specialist finger **** your cat or something?

Classic :D

[David Jamieson]

You overestimate your own critical thinking abilities.

The fundamental basis of critical thinking is the ability to question one's own assumptions, prejudices and motivations.

Fanatical adherence to a predetermined agenda precludes critical thinking of any sort.

Be clear, it does not matter what "proof" anyone offers you, you will reject it outright all the while pontificating about "skeptical critical thinking" in order to conform to your own agenda.

You can cloak yourself in the language of Pyrrhonistic skepticism all you want, but you are just as misguided and fanatical as Wong Kiew Kit and his followers.
You're entire argument is predicated on some presumed infallibility of the scientific method.

Seriously though, what happened? Did a TCM specialist finger **** your cat or something?

Why are you consumed with this need to convince the 4 or 5 people who read this forum that you are some champion of skepticism? Especially with regards to something as minuscule and obscure as IP?

Maybe PTSD from being repeatedly choked out with your face buried in some other dude's fermented urine, feces and sweat reeking taint?

To be fair, you are gonna have him using a dictionary just to try and absorb that...

lol

[JamesC]

To be fair, you are gonna have him using a dictionary just to try and absorb that...

lol

No kidding. I'm on dictionary.com right now trying to decipher. Too highbrow for me:eek:

[wenshu]

To be fair, you are gonna have him using a dictionary just to try and absorb that...

lol

For all my effort at being Grandiose-ier than you and Ross, I still managed to mistake "you're" for "your".

Doh.

[alchemist]

Mixing jow with DMSO would be a risky venture, but rubbing it on the skin so that it will be absorbed into the skin is not a risky venture?

Do you see the problem with this line of thinking?

No... Do you see the problem with yours? Of course not...

If we accept that DMSO is non-toxic (which we don't have to but it is another issue), then there is no problem with applying it. The point is that whatever is mixed with it enters the skin and the bloodstream much more effectively.

Assuming that jow is safe and effective (again... which we don't have to but that is not my point) according to its traditional delivery method, we still cannot assume that increased absorption IS safe.

This is not a mysterious, unknown concept. Some things that are healthy at certain levels are poisonous at others.

It seems like your concept of critical thinking lacks discernment and subtlety. You might want to read this article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL

[Dragonzbane76]

I can't believe there are 200 some post in this thread. :eek: