Afghanistan

[dimethylsea]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/asia/05afghan.html?ref=world&pagewanted=print

"U.S. Admits Role in February Killing of Afghan Women
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

KABUL, Afghanistan — After initially denying involvement or any cover-up in the deaths of three Afghan women during a badly bungled American Special Operations assault in February, the American-led military command in Kabul admitted late on Sunday that its forces had, in fact, killed the women during the nighttime raid.

The admission immediately raised questions about what really happened during the Feb. 12 operation — and what falsehoods followed — including a new report that Special Operations forces dug bullets out of the bodies of the women to hide the true nature of their deaths.

A NATO official also said Sunday in an interview that an Afghan-led team of investigators had found signs of evidence tampering at the scene, including the removal of bullets from walls near where the women were killed. "

"NATO military officials had already admitted killing two innocent civilians — a district prosecutor and local police chief — during the raid, on a home near Gardez in southeastern Afghanistan. The two men were shot to death when they came out of their home, armed with Kalashnikov rifles, to investigate.

Three women also died that night at the same home: One was a pregnant mother of 10 and another was a pregnant mother of six. NATO military officials had suggested that the women were actually stabbed to death — or had died by some other means — hours before the raid, an explanation that implied that family members or others at the home might have killed them.

Survivors of the raid called that explanation a cover-up and insisted that American forces killed the women. Relatives and family friends said the bloody raid followed a party in honor of the birth of a grandson of the owner of the house. "

[Drake]

There's going to be some field grades going down over that one. I watched a full bird and a general be destroyed over Abu Ghraib. It's not a pretty sight, and they usually take people with them.

[dimethylsea]

The general consensus seems to be this was a clusterf*ck of amazing proportions.

I really really hope this other report I read turns out not to be true though...

"survivors of the raid said that the special operations forces denied the wounded medical treatment and prevented survivors from going to get medical help for an extended period of time, during which one of the women and one of the men who were mortally wounded died."

[Drake]

Karzai is locking our asses down! Hehehe.... while it might not make the brass all too happy, I'm glad he's finally stepping up and being a leader.

[David Jamieson]

We are the worst generation to ever walk this earth.

Our leaders are all worthless with not an upright and righteous man or woman among them anywhere.

I am at a loss for how it can be corrected, but it certainly won't be politics and it sure as heck ain't war, or religion either.

[SanHeChuan]

Now there is supposedly a video of U.S. Military killing two Reuter’s reports along with some civilians. As reported by the Christian Science montor by wikiLeake.


We are the worst generation to ever walk this earth.

War is just harder than it was in WWII, if you are making a comparison to the greatest generation. The enemy doesn’t wear uniforms and face you on the field of battle anymore. It’s a lot harder to tell who the bad guys are.

Shouldn't be trying to cover up our mistakes though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rule number 1:
NEVER, EVER, cover anything up !

Rule number 2:
NEVER, EVER forget rule number 1 !!

[1bad65]

War is just harder than it was in WWII, if you are making a comparison to the greatest generation. The enemy doesn’t wear uniforms and face you on the field of battle anymore. It’s a lot harder to tell who the bad guys are.

Shouldn't be trying to cover up our mistakes though.

Very true.

And no matter how we feel politically, we should give thanks to those who put their lives on the line so we are able to enjoy the freedoms we have.

[1bad65]

Rule number 1:
NEVER, EVER, cover anything up !

Rule number 2:
NEVER, EVER forget rule number 1 !!

What's that old saying? Something about the cover-up is often worse than the crime...

[Drake]

Is dangerous.

[Cdr.Instigator]

Thank you for your enlightening us with this thread, Capt. Obvious!


So, does this mean that practicing Wing Chun out in the open, could get you stoned to death or just get your hands and feet chopped off? :eek:

[Syn7]

how long are you there for???


any good stories???


edumacate us....

[Drake]

- I'm here for a year

- Nothing I can talk about

- I am really just trying to keep people alive long enough for them to change things, and giving them what they need to know to act against the threat (which is EVERYWHERE)


It's a very dangerous place here, and there are a lot of moving pieces by other "players".

[David Jamieson]

- I'm here for a year

- Nothing I can talk about

- I am really just trying to keep people alive long enough for them to change things, and giving them what they need to know to act against the threat (which is EVERYWHERE)


It's a very dangerous place here, and there are a lot of moving pieces by other "players".

Say hello to my countrymen and tell them we're sorry about the postal strike, cookies will resume as soon as possible!

[Cdr.Instigator]

Drake, I apologize for my previous post above..

I thank you for your service to our country, for putting your life on the line in the most hostile of countries. Now I know, something new about you and I'm humbled. Thanks for your service again and give the enemy Hell!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

- I'm here for a year

- Nothing I can talk about

- I am really just trying to keep people alive long enough for them to change things, and giving them what they need to know to act against the threat (which is EVERYWHERE)


It's a very dangerous place here, and there are a lot of moving pieces by other "players".

It's a **** hole, always has been and probably always will be.

[Syn7]

- I'm here for a year

- Nothing I can talk about

- I am really just trying to keep people alive long enough for them to change things, and giving them what they need to know to act against the threat (which is EVERYWHERE)


It's a very dangerous place here, and there are a lot of moving pieces by other "players".

was restrepo an accurate portrayal of what its like there??? way diff than iraq huh???

[Drake]

was restrepo an accurate portrayal of what its like there??? way diff than iraq huh???

I just spent the last week living down at the city police headquarters. No, no movie will EVER get this crap down right.

[Syn7]

I just spent the last week living down at the city police headquarters. No, no movie will EVER get this crap down right.

wasnt a movie... you guys abandoned that valley right??? do you know the camp restrepo story?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just spent the last week living down at the city police headquarters. No, no movie will EVER get this crap down right.

I understand where you are coming from.
No movie or documentary ever got Bosnia right.
Watch your six bro.

[David Jamieson]

Drake are you doing logistics on the withdrawal for the year?

[Drake]

Drake are you doing logistics on the withdrawal for the year?

I don't touch logistics. I have a much different job.

[SanHeChuan]

- I am really just trying to keep people alive long enough for them to change things,


What changes do you think are being made that wont be swept away as soon as we leave?

[David Jamieson]

What changes do you think are being made that wont be swept away as soon as we leave?

who says we're leaving?

I don't doubt there will be mercs/private contractors present for the foreseeable future.

[Drake]

who says we're leaving?

I don't doubt there will be mercs/private contractors present for the foreseeable future.

What are you talking about? I've been in town every day... not a single "merc" in sight. It's all Afghan-led here. This isn't Iraq. The ABP, ANA, and ANP are holding their own, and then some. Sad that the amazing things they do never make the news, and instead we get overinflated, pretty much lies about what really happened. Guess tragedy sells better than triumph.

[SimonM]

The SEO fully intends to step into Afghanistan the second the NATO types leave. Considering the two biggest motives of the SEO are regional stability and profit I expect they'll try to keep a lid on things.

[Drake]

Everyone here is thinking western-style...what western entities will do, and how western entities will profit. It isn't going to work like that, unless of course, some key Afghan players get a cut.

Everyone is forgetting that these Afghan powerbrokers have their own plans for the country, and most of them have international, and VERY powerful connections. Even NATO is getting punched in the pee pee when they go against the flow. That includes US forces.

[David Jamieson]

What are you talking about? I've been in town every day... not a single "merc" in sight. It's all Afghan-led here. This isn't Iraq. The ABP, ANA, and ANP are holding their own, and then some. Sad that the amazing things they do never make the news, and instead we get overinflated, pretty much lies about what really happened. Guess tragedy sells better than triumph.

You saying Xe isn't in there? Karzai got kiboshed on kickin them out in March of this year, they are still there.

I have no doubt we are fed steaming piles of crap from our western propo machines. :)

Not to mention, Xe aren't the only merc org there. there are others, some have been disbanded due to nepotism etc.

this is recent:

Karzai had already conceded that embassies and Nato, which rely on private guards to protect supply convoys, could continue to use security companies. But questions remained over development projects, such as road construction, that the US regard as essential for winning over ordinary Afghans.

Under the new plan companies guarding reconstruction projects will be able to have 500 of their own guards, or up to 1,000 if they pay a one-off fine.

For contracts requiring more than that the companies will be expected to recruit, train, arm and pay new APPF guards who will then take control of the contract after 12 months.

If the APPF proves not up to the job the private company will continue to be in control, according to the draft proposal. Many officials think that is likely.

Is APPF just a safe blanket for a lot of mercs?

[SimonM]

Everyone here is thinking western-style...what western entities will do, and how western entities will profit. It isn't going to work like that, unless of course, some key Afghan players get a cut.


Um... You do know who the SEO are right?

You know that Afghanistan asked for observer status in the SEO this year right? And that most predictions is that it'll be a gimmie for them to get that status.

[Drake]

I don't care what the news says. At all. Convoy security? What convoys? NATO hangs out on KAF, spending most of their days on the Boardwalk.

If there is a private security firm making $$, it's more PAK than AFG. Every contractor here is either for training or for logistical support. They are making a ton of money, but it isn't through security.

Again... I don't care what the news says. I only see ABP, ANA, and ANP. And I see them everywhere. And it's cheaper to get local security here anyway... ie what we use for KAF.

Really... don't trust the news. They are wrong.

[SimonM]

Again with the point I was trying to make - the SEO is categorically NOT a Western power.

[Syn7]

what is it... to me SEO means search engine optimization... from what you say i imagine SEO is some sort of security or logistics firm??? what country are they based in or started from???

[SimonM]

Acronym used in sources like Al Jazeera to describe the Shanghai Economic Cooperation Organization.

It's China, Russia and the central Asian "stans" at the moment but Iran, India, and Pakistan want in and Afghanistan wants observer status.

Think massive economic bloc set to dominate Asia (and probably Africa too) for the next century. I've been bringing them up since about 2005 as the coming thing but they don't let the USA join so the media over on this side of the Pacific has a tendency to stick fingers in ears and go "lalalala I don't hear you."

[Drake]

This confirms it... the rest of the world has absolutely no idea what's going on down here. This isn't a jab at anyone... you guys just aren't getting the honest truth. When it comes to Iran and Pakistan, though, their involvement with the SEO is the LEAST of our worries here.

[SimonM]

My point was that the SEO, not a Western power player at all, wants to get involved in Afghanistan in a big way and their model is regional security, economic ties and sovereignty of partners. Players in Afghanistan who are tired of NATO will likely see it as a very viable alternative - though they'll have to reign in the drug trade probably if they want to be granted full involvement.

A lot of people could stand to make a lot of money and there won't be threats of drones / soldiers / etc. just a big carrot.

I'm curious to see what it does myself. It's a very different way of approaching Afghanistan from what has been tried before this century.

[Drake]

My point was that the SEO, not a Western power player at all, wants to get involved in Afghanistan in a big way and their model is regional security, economic ties and sovereignty of partners. Players in Afghanistan who are tired of NATO will likely see it as a very viable alternative - though they'll have to reign in the drug trade probably if they want to be granted full involvement.

A lot of people could stand to make a lot of money and there won't be threats of drones / soldiers / etc. just a big carrot.

I'm curious to see what it does myself. It's a very different way of approaching Afghanistan from what has been tried before this century.

You won't disrupt the narcotics trade when everyone has their hands in it. EVERYONE. And as long as Pakistan continues to harbor, train, and supply terrorists across and within the borders, as well as facilitate them, you won't see anything good from them. Iran isn't much better.

[SimonM]

You won't disrupt the narcotics trade when everyone has their hands in it. EVERYONE. And as long as Pakistan continues to harbor, train, and supply terrorists across and within the borders, as well as facilitate them, you won't see anything good from them. Iran isn't much better.

Well that depends. If China and Russia manage to put a deal in front of the regional powers that would let them get more rapaciously rich than drug trade allows for you might see a shift.

And the energy market is one of the few where getting disgustingly rich is easier than in the drug market.

[mawali]

Is dangerous.

No ****!
Just got back from BAF as part of FP element. They do get all the **** (literally and figuratively).

[Drake]

No ****!
Just got back from BAF as part of FP element. They do get all the **** (literally and figuratively).


Yeah, that came up today during my meeting with my Afghan counterparts. Kabul tends to give us the cold shoulder on a lot of things.

[Syn7]

This confirms it... the rest of the world has absolutely no idea what's going on down here. This isn't a jab at anyone... you guys just aren't getting the honest truth.

i dont think many here needed you to tell us that, bro. haha.

which is why i ask the questions i ask. i have a million questions, but i figured i would wait till you came back to ask. by then you will prolly have a more complete picture of what its like there and prolly more likely to talk when youre back than you are now.

anyways, the reason i asked about restrepo was coz i thpought it was a really well done doc. i would love to hear from somebody who was actually in that valley. the doc really showed the cultural struggles in dealing with the villiagers. but i wasnt there so i have no way of knowing if it was realistic or not. i mean, i have to assume that there atre some things they were not allowed to show the public... and i mean for political reasons, not the security reasons they cite over and over...

i'd love to really pick your brain about it.

the last cat i spoke to about it was a marine and he was wonky. i got more from his actions and what he didnt say than from what he did say...

[mawali]

Yeah, that came up today during my meeting with my Afghan counterparts. Kabul tends to give us the cold shoulder on a lot of things.


Funny thing is that at BAF, they always recommended Intercontinental Hotel snice it was the safer of all the hotels in the area. I am surprised anyone got as far as they did. So much for vigilence on the part of ANA and ANP!

[David Jamieson]

So Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan had a bit of a shock yesterday when his Brother Wal, was killed by the Taliban.

This will put a severe dent in the heroin shipments as that was his area of trade mostly.

sorry junkies, your dealer is dead.

[Drake]

You really shouldn't talk about things that you know absolutely nothing about. It was today, not yesterday, as it happened about four hours ago, and the news has completely screwed up the real story.

I am very close to placing you on ignore. Our entire region was just destabilized by this, and we're looking at some bad things happening very soon, and you spout off at the mouth based off your limited and cursory "e-research".

Always fun to make fun of this **** when it has nothing to do with your frappucino-sipping ass, and it isn't your family and those around you dying, isn't it?

You know what? Forget it. You are on ignore.

[Cdr.Instigator]

Kill them all with FIRE!!!


;)

[David Jamieson]

You really shouldn't talk about things that you know absolutely nothing about. It was today, not yesterday, as it happened about four hours ago, and the news has completely screwed up the real story.

I am very close to placing you on ignore. Our entire region was just destabilized by this, and we're looking at some bad things happening very soon, and you spout off at the mouth based off your limited and cursory "e-research".

Always fun to make fun of this **** when it has nothing to do with your frappucino-sipping ass, and it isn't your family and those around you dying, isn't it?

You know what? Forget it. You are on ignore.

waaahhh waaahhhh how does this canuck know?

whatever Drake. Go pose in the desert for your adoring fans. lol

ignore away.

what am I getting wrong?

Is he not Hamid Karzais Brother?
Was he not killed by his own bodyguard who was a taliban insider?
Was he not involved in drug dealing on a large scale in Afghanistan?

You tell me?

I'm not getting it wrong. I'm guessing as you claim to be in intel that you are merely frustrated because you guys can't seem to keep a lid on this stuff and everyday we get exposed for the d-bags we are in regards to this fight.

also, stuff your patriotic nonsense up your ass. I don't want to hear it, or read it. It's crap.

[Drake]

Kill them all with FIRE!!!


;)


It'll start getting very unpleasant for the TB here over the next few weeks. They'll be taking the kid gloves off a certain individual, and letting him do what he does best.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It'll start getting very unpleasant for the TB here over the next few weeks. They'll be taking the kid gloves off a certain individual, and letting him do what he does best.

You don't really think that it will make any difference in the long term, do you?
I mean, history in that area is pretty clear.
Eventually we all will leave and it will go back to how it was.

[SimonM]

That's why the best way to support our troops is to support them coming home!

[Drake]

Oh, and yeah... the news is full of crap. The only honest thing from them is that AWK is dead, and it was by bullets.

[SimonM]

No offence intended but I find this to be a more reliable source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14118884) than a random person on a kung fu forum.

[Drake]

No offence intended but I find this to be a more reliable source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14118884) than a random person on a kung fu forum.

Check my location... and have fun trusting BBC. You are free to believe what you like.

[SimonM]

1) I'm not saying you AREN'T in Afghanistan. I'm just saying that your "location" on KFM doesn't count as proof that you are. For ref, check my location.

2a) Assuming you are in Afghanistan that is no indication you are better informed than career journalists also in the region.

2b) Assuming you are in Afghanistan that is no indication you are more trust-worthy than career journalists also in the region.

[David Jamieson]

al jaz has the story as well, so does everyone else.

This is a 10 year long failure we've engaged in and wasted money on.
the russians failed there, we failed there, for pete's sake there hasn't been an army in all of history that has succeeded in afghanistan.

Yes, get our people out of there and let them get back to their backwards tribal crap that they enjoy so much.

seriously, we need to get our heads out of our asses and get out of dodge.

we also need to cut military budgets and get off the war junk.

[SimonM]

You are forgetting David, no journalist anywhere is trustworthy. The military, unlike untrustworthy journalists would never mislead the public about what was happening at the front.

Oh wait... (http://wmtc.blogspot.com/2010/04/afghanistan-you-are-being-lied-to.html) :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

You are forgetting David, no journalist anywhere is trustworthy. The military, unlike untrustworthy journalists would never mislead the public about what was happening at the front.

Oh wait... (http://wmtc.blogspot.com/2010/04/afghanistan-you-are-being-lied-to.html) :rolleyes:

Yeah, I don't trust much that the military command has to say.
They are there for 10 years, can't win and seem to be just sucking tax dollars out of us all and seriously impeding our economy.

the least reliable source of information for the public is any sort of "official" channel. they've been collectively lying to their paymasters for years! :p

why start trusting em now?

[Drake]

1) I'm not saying you AREN'T in Afghanistan. I'm just saying that your "location" on KFM doesn't count as proof that you are. For ref, check my location.

2a) Assuming you are in Afghanistan that is no indication you are better informed than career journalists also in the region.

2b) Assuming you are in Afghanistan that is no indication you are more trust-worthy than career journalists also in the region.

Again, believe whatever you like. It doesn't matter, I suppose, if you are lied to or not.

And while I don't feel the need to prove anything myself, Gene at least knows for a fact where I'm at, because I have some stuff being shipped to here from Martialartsmart, and had to do some wrangling due to the APO address.

But again... you've made it clear that it doesn't matter if you know what happened or not, because your mind is clearly set. And ultimately, it only really affects me, my command, and our Afghan partners out here. It's just a story to you.

[SimonM]

Again, believe whatever you like. It doesn't matter, I suppose, if you are lied to or not.

And while I don't feel the need to prove anything myself, Gene at least knows for a fact where I'm at, because I have some stuff being shipped to here from Martialartsmart, and had to do some wrangling due to the APO address.

But again... you've made it clear that it doesn't matter if you know what happened or not, because your mind is clearly set. And ultimately, it only really affects me, my command, and our Afghan partners out here. It's just a story to you.

:rolleyes:

My mind isn't, in fact, made up about much. However when a single, semi-anonymous person claims that EVERY JOURNALIST IN THE WORLD is lying and ONLY HE is telling the truth the sceptic in me doubts.

And the sceptic in me is a pretty powerful part of me.

Also I can't stand the argument of exclusive knowledge.

"I am right because only I know," is a weak argument. Especially when followed by "everybody is wrong but I can't tell you what really happened." :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

simon, drake claims he works in military intel.
If this is so, then that stands as is as far as reliable about any information. especially in context to his statements about his info is good and theirs is bad when we know the state of intel on the ground in afghanistan IE: it's almost always wrong. lol (I learned that from the CBC! hahahahahaha.)

[Drake]

:rolleyes:

My mind isn't, in fact, made up about much. However when a single, semi-anonymous person claims that EVERY JOURNALIST IN THE WORLD is lying and ONLY HE is telling the truth the sceptic in me doubts.

And the sceptic in me is a pretty powerful part of me.

Also I can't stand the argument of exclusive knowledge.

"I am right because only I know," is a weak argument. Especially when followed by "everybody is wrong but I can't tell you what really happened." :rolleyes:

Well, to be fair, CNN largely straightened out their story. Their initial reports were complete garbage.

And I really can't disclose anything. Because I would really go to jail.

I'm just saying that just because the media says something, doesn't make it true, legitimate journalist or not. Again, you can believe what you want, and it really makes no difference in your life if it's true or not.

I feel like I am slowly becoming HW108... only without the weird conspiracy theories.

[mawali]

The quicker the US exit, the better!
And these are the people Karzai want to negotiate with! Let him do it let Him sort it out!

[BJJ-Blue]

You really shouldn't talk about things that you know absolutely nothing about. It was today, not yesterday, as it happened about four hours ago, and the news has completely screwed up the real story.

If he didn't speak on things he knows nothing about, he would never post.


Well, to be fair, CNN largely straightened out their story. Their initial reports were complete garbage.

Looks like you were indeed correct. ;)


But again... you've made it clear that it doesn't matter if you know what happened or not, because your mind is clearly set.

He has proven to be that way on other issues as well. In some ways he is just like those fools who follow Harold Camping (the rapture guy). No amount of evidence will sway him from his predecided viewpoints.

It just took you longer to figure that out than it took me. ;)

[Drake]

The quicker the US exit, the better!
And these are the people Karzai want to negotiate with! Let him do it let Him sort it out!

I agree. We aren't getting much out of this anymore.

[Drake]

If he didn't speak on things he knows nothing about, he would never post.



Looks like you were indeed correct. ;)



He has proven to be that way on other issues as well. In some ways he is just like those fools who follow Harold Camping (the rapture guy). No amount of evidence will sway him from his predecided viewpoints.

It just took you longer to figure that out than it took me. ;)

He is the second person I ever put on ignore. I haven't seen the other person on here in years.

[SimonM]

And I really can't disclose anything. Because I would really go to jail.


There are two equally likely possibilities here:

1) You are telling the truth, can disclose nothing, would go to jail if you did, in which the wise course of action would be for you is to say absolutely nothing.

2) You are not telling the truth, because you are misinformed, trolling, lying as instructed, or trying to bolster your reputation with wild claims of secret knowledge in which case the wise course of action for US is to ignore you.

Either way your position, whether based on legitimate legal concerns or trolling is one that makes any likelihood of communicating anything of merit on this point null.

Now, I don't know you from Adam. As I said before, your location tag is NOT proof of your location. Even if you are, in fact, in Kabul right now that still doesn't mean you know any better than anybody else what happened here - plenty of the journalists this story comes from being in Kabul too.

I have two options: To believe you without proof or to doubt you when there is a chance you may know what you are talking about.

My natural predisposition is toward doubt in the absence of evidence. And so I doubt you.

Now note: this is not a "belief" rather this is a state of mind wherein, in the absence of evidence, I choose to cleave in the direction of the preponderance of available evidence.

[rett]

However when a single, semi-anonymous person claims that EVERY JOURNALIST IN THE WORLD is lying and ONLY HE is telling the truth the sceptic in me doubts.


I think you're being unreasonable. It happens all the time that the first news reports from some event are inaccurate and someone at the scene can correct it. Seriously, this is an everyday occurrence.

It's not like saying EVERY JOURNALIST IN THE WORLD IS LYING because very few journalists are actually there. The vast majority of news outlets are just re-reporting the same initial story from some wire agency.

Seriously, you must just be harping for the sake of harping. But don't pretend you're making any kind of sense. You aren't. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Journalists are notorious for NOT knowing what is going on, that is why when one of them does get it right it is such a huge thing.
The military is notorious for giving them bad intel.
That said, military intel is notorious for fuking up too, so...
Been on both sides of the fence on this one and one thing I do know:
Tribalisim is alive and well and nothing will ever change that.
The Stan will be what it always has been.

[SimonM]

Journalists are notorious for NOT knowing what is going on, that is why when one of them does get it right it is such a huge thing.
The military is notorious for giving them bad intel.
That said, military intel is notorious for fuking up too, so...
Been on both sides of the fence on this one and one thing I do know:
Tribalisim is alive and well and nothing will ever change that.
The Stan will be what it always has been.


A good summation. However, in an unclear situation, it is best to operate under a balance of probability. When dealing with BBC and AJ (both gold-standard media sources) saying one thing and a random guy on the Internet saying the other I'm going to err on the side of the journalists.

There aren't any perfect sources, but BBC and AJ together are a better source than Drake, who might be in military intelligence, who can provide no details and who, if in military intelligence, may very well be actively attempting to deceive.

[Drake]

A good summation. However, in an unclear situation, it is best to operate under a balance of probability. When dealing with BBC and AJ (both gold-standard media sources) saying one thing and a random guy on the Internet saying the other I'm going to err on the side of the journalists.

There aren't any perfect sources, but BBC and AJ together are a better source than Drake, who might be in military intelligence, who can provide no details and who, if in military intelligence, may very well be actively attempting to deceive.

Doesn't matter. The news agencies backtracked on their story, because, like I said, the initial reports were extremely inaccurate. They'll do a bit more before it's all said and done.

If anyone is attempting to deceive anyone, it would be the TB for claiming responsibility for this.

[SimonM]

Doesn't matter. The news agencies backtracked on their story, because, like I said, the initial reports were extremely inaccurate. They'll do a bit more before it's all said and done.

If anyone is attempting to deceive anyone, it would be the TB for claiming responsibility for this.

That may very well be the case, it may not. The point is I'm not inclined to take your word as proof.

I do hope you understand my point.

[Drake]

That may very well be the case, it may not. The point is I'm not inclined to take your word as proof.

I do hope you understand my point.

I do understand you, and you are perfectly within your bounds to be skeptical.

However... the story broke, I said their facts were all screwed up... they revised their report, I said they were closer to the truth. These are factual events.

[David Jamieson]

Bottom line:

Afghanistan is a waste of time, blood and treasure at this point.

OBL is gone.

The Taliban simply will not go away, democracy will not be adopted with open arms and a mixed form of theocratic tribal mish mash will occur and people will still tote kalashnikovs around.

I know for sure Drake's intel is no better than any newsy because what happened, happened away from eyes that would be considered "ours".

A war journalist is not generally some nincompoop and can often get closer than ever to any enemy than any military dude can. Whose kidding who? Pretty sure no american soldiers were in the room with the victim. Unless of course they did him and this is an elaborate scam. lol

I think these guys have ignored me for one reason and one only. Truth.
I mean come on? lol :p A texan bigot and an milintel guy?

who hates the truth more?

[bawang]

take care of yourself out there, drake

[Drake]

No offence intended but I find this to be a more reliable source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14118884) than a random person on a kung fu forum.

At least it was written better than CNNs article.

[David Jamieson]

I didn't even read CNN. I don't watch American news for the most part, unless something is on fire as i flip channels past the stations! lol

I find it interesting that Drake seemed to be upset that I made this factual statement.

why?
Because he's there, or so he says, I have no idea that he is not a fat german kid in his mom's basement, but that's here nor there. :p

[BJJ-Blue]

However... the story broke, I said their facts were all screwed up... they revised their report, I said they were closer to the truth. These are factual events.

Exactly. And yet some people are still skeptical of you. It's crazy. You said the news reports were wrong right off the bat. Then CNN had to admit they were indeed incorrect. And yet some people here are still questioning you. :confused:

[David Jamieson]

Exactly. And yet some people are still skeptical of you. It's crazy. You said the news reports were wrong right off the bat. Then CNN had to admit they were indeed incorrect. And yet some people here are still questioning you. :confused:

you two drink funny water.

no one said anything about cnn. I certainly wasn't watching or listening to cnn so i have no idea what their story said.


what is said in my original post is 100% true. It happened.
YOu tell me where the error is in my statement.

I think you 1bad/bjjblue and drake are both net shills for the most part pushing an agenda.
It makes you two less reliable as far as information goes than even that taoverse guy! lol

rubes. eff ya! :p

[Drake]

Exactly. And yet some people are still skeptical of you. It's crazy. You said the news reports were wrong right off the bat. Then CNN had to admit they were indeed incorrect. And yet some people here are still questioning you. :confused:

I mean, to be fair, nearly everyone was wrong right off the bat, but we waited until we got more information before saying this or that was true. The whole thing stinks, though, and it isn't a Taliban stink.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I mean, to be fair, nearly everyone was wrong right off the bat, but we waited until we got more information before saying this or that was true. The whole thing stinks, though, and it isn't a Taliban stink.

Journalists live to jump the gun and we all know why:
The ONE story or ONE photo that is out before everyone else, that is what makes a journlists name.

[SimonM]

Journalists live to jump the gun and we all know why:
The ONE story or ONE photo that is out before everyone else, that is what makes a journlists name.

That's why a media literate person seeks multiple sources and a variety of viewpoints.

I have an example I often use to explain this:

If you want to find out about the truth of an event in China read what BBC says, read what China Daily says. Where they agree you find truth. Where they disagree the truth is likely 1/2 way between the conflicting statements.

[David Jamieson]

Top body guard.

One to the gut, one to the chest followed by bodyguard getting done.

Taliban states he was a sleeper.

he (karzai) for sure was a drug lord and for sure was a corrupted piece of work.

I don't see any conflict in what I originally stated and what is now coming out as the truth of the matter.

I don't see war journalists in that light of desperate for ratings, that would be their sales and marketing people. Journalists, especially war journalists tend to try and fight out the w5 of conflict.

They are often at odds with the army they find themselves embedded with or onside with because of course no one wants to have a bad light shed on themselves. So, they tend to cover things up and lie a lot when things look bad.

slags writing about tv shows and celebs? they are not the same animal, not even close.

btw, Drakes argument of being there is like saying: "as a member of te toronto police force i have a pretty intimate understanding of the crime problems in vancouver.

It's a freaking big country after all and being in it doesn't make anyone all that much wiser to what is happening away from them than anyone else really.

[BJJ-Blue]

If you want to find out about the truth of an event in China read what BBC says, read what China Daily says. Where they agree you find truth. Where they disagree the truth is likely 1/2 way between the conflicting statements.

When they disagree, I'd believe the BBC without question. The BBC has free speech, while the press in China is censored by the Government.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's why a media literate person seeks multiple sources and a variety of viewpoints.

I have an example I often use to explain this:

If you want to find out about the truth of an event in China read what BBC says, read what China Daily says. Where they agree you find truth. Where they disagree the truth is likely 1/2 way between the conflicting statements.

The age old adage of :
His side, Her side and the Truth.

[Drake]

Let's see how much longer they use the word "assassination".

[David Jamieson]

Let's see how much longer they use the word "assassination".

The word "killed" is being used up here.

[David Jamieson]

Jamieson' political agenda comes first and the 'news' is fuel for it. It's not as if he was searching for 'truth', he already has his own 'truth'.

Poor Afghanis. They are only pawns in the political agendas and political ambitions of domestic Imperialists such as Jamieson in so far away countries such as Canada.
Who knows? Did the NDP hire the assassin to kill the guy to further their domestic political ambitions? They appear to have common goals. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

People will do anything for political power, especially leftist politicians and their minions.

Leftists seem the worst betrayers of humanity. They will sell out anyone on earth for a little domestic power.something like political cannibals - their world is always small and always shrinking. First in rabid nationalism and last in defense of their actual physical country - such strange creatures - their definition belongs in a modern Bestiary. I imagine a caricature of the Jamieson in such a tome complete with bat wings.

The fact that you focus on a nobody like me makes you ...well, mentally ill. Why do you let people like me bother you so much? Does it hurt that bad that you need to rant and rave and spout vitriol about others because of some perceived slight?

weirdo, take your pills and **** off already. lol :p

[SimonM]

The fact that you focus on a nobody like me makes you ...well, mentally ill. Why do you let people like me bother you so much? Does it hurt that bad that you need to rant and rave and spout vitriol about others because of some perceived slight?

weirdo, take your pills and **** off already. lol :p

He's got ****ty aim too. Everybody knows I'm the forum's resident commie. :D

[ducks]

[SoCo KungFu]

I like cookies

[David Jamieson]

An interesting colourful stream of personal attack.
So you don't have any rational response? I let the cat out of the bag and you don't like to have your motivations examined. Sounds like I hit the nail flat on the head.

Aren't you in the above paragraph actually describing your own attitudes and writings in regard to one named drake here and in regard to your Afghanistan Agenda?

You are a good case study - typical of a trend or group process. Society needs cure and you are part of the illness.
If you are going to do the talk , you gotta do the walk - you have to expect critical response - well that is, a rational or non deceitful person would.

a rational response to a personal attack?

truly, you are a nutbar.

again, meds up ****up.

You don't honestly expect me to address you in any respectful manner after your crap here do you? lol you're laughable. get a life. If you ever make a point worth talking about I'll address it. You haven't said anything that requires responding to in context to what we're talking about here. :rolleyes:

weirdo.

[Drake]

I predict another news story about Kandahar arriving on your news shortly.

[rett]

I predict another news story about Kandahar arriving on your news shortly.

Hey Drake, stay safe.

There's a silent majority here that appreciate your efforts and those like you.

[Drake]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14151048


Well slap my ass and call me Nostradamus...

[David Jamieson]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14151048


Well slap my ass and call me Nostradamus...

Gee, a war zone and and there was some killing. :rolleyes:

you're a regular visionary! not. lol

[Drake]

Hey Drake, stay safe.

There's a silent majority here that appreciate your efforts and those like you.

Yeah, it sucks that you are trying your **** best to help these folks, and you keep running into setbacks, corruption, etc. But some of these guys are good folks, and they just want to see all this stuff come to an end.

The normal, run of the mill Afghan sees the TB as animals. Nothing more. They keep trying to assure me that the TB are not Islamic, and that they start quoting the Quran to show me how the TB are doing exactly the opposite of what it tells them to do.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, it sucks that you are trying your **** best to help these folks, and you keep running into setbacks, corruption, etc. But some of these guys are good folks, and they just want to see all this stuff come to an end.

The normal, run of the mill Afghan sees the TB as animals. Nothing more. They keep trying to assure me that the TB are not Islamic, and that they start quoting the Quran to show me how the TB are doing exactly the opposite of what it tells them to do.


Holy Crap.

Care to explain how a standing army from a foreign nation waging war on your people for a decade is helping them? I don't care much for criminal in my country either, I'm sure you don't care for yours and you have millions in your american jails right now, but....

We went to :

1- hunt bin laden and destroy al qaida
2-?
3- profit?

such a messed up perspective. There's nothing righteous or just about any of this.
You can't paint it as such with stupid empty platitudes and bs about how you care about afghans.

what a load.

[SimonM]

The normal, run of the mill Afghan sees the TB as animals. Nothing more. They keep trying to assure me that the TB are not Islamic, and that they start quoting the Quran to show me how the TB are doing exactly the opposite of what it tells them to do.

The majority of Christians live in opposition to the teachings of the Bible too. Religion, regardless of denomination, is inherently hypocritical.

And Jamieson seriously, what the hell? You're stealing my commie, anti-american thunder! How come all the crazy pseudo-anarchists think YOU are the evil northern leftist in these parts? Dude, next people will be coming at you for unflinching criticism of all religion and superstition!

[SimonM]

Ah, Wolfen, you petty little anarchist child.

Apparently you have never heard of Godwin's law.

-10000 internets for you, you lose.

Go back to daycare.

[David Jamieson]

Ah, Wolfen, you petty little anarchist child.

Apparently you have never heard of Godwin's law.

-10000 internets for you, you lose.

Go back to daycare.

He puts a lot of effort into his trolling. lol. tl:dnr

As for the whole commie/left thing, I don't really think like that. I think more about what I perceive to be right, righteous, just.

I value truth over rhetoric, patriotism, principle, pretty much everything.

Only truth has value for me in the highest sense.

Everything else s superfluous by comparison.

[Drake]

The thing is, western civilization doesn't get the fact that they are part of a very small minority. Most of the rest of the world is living in hovels, struggling to survive. It's foolish to think that just because everything in your field of knowledge has 3G iPads and hybrid cars, the rest of the world has to AT LEAST have running water, AC, and a nice front yard.

We have people living in huts, shacks, and anything else that provides shade. We have folks living in shells of buildings that were bombed before many of you were born, and look like they'll collapse at any moment.

And we also have those who just lie on the ground, looking like they are just waiting to die.

Awful lot of graveyards out here too...

[BJJ-Blue]

Jamieson' political agenda comes first and the 'news' is fuel for it. It's not as if he was searching for 'truth', he already has his own 'truth'.

People will do anything for political power, especially leftist politicians and their minions.

Leftists seem the worst betrayers of humanity. They will sell out anyone on earth for a little domestic power.

You hit Jamieson's nail on the head. If some liberal came out and said 2+2=5 and a conservative said 2+2=4, he would spend the rest of his life explaining to all who would listen that 2+2=5. He is completely incapable of looking at actual facts and drawing conclusions from said facts. Why do you think he hardly ever sources his allegations?

And yes, leftists do indeed do that. They've kept one demographic riled up and in a cylcle of poverty simply by calling the other side racists. And the leftist are doing everything in their power to keep that group uneducated and poor. Why do you think the worst schools are in the inner cities, yet the Party who claims to be on their side won't vote for vouchers which would give that group equal education instead of a sub-par education? Simple, because if those people make something of themselves, they won't vote Democrat anymore. So the Democrats make sure they get just enough entitlements to survive, reproduce, and pull the (D) lever every 2 years.


An interesting colourful stream of personal attack.
So you don't have any rational response? I let the cat out of the bag and you don't like to have your motivations examined. Sounds like I hit the nail flat on the head.

Par for the course for him. Expect to be called a racist and/or a Neocon soon enough. When Drake puts someone on ignore, that says alot.


I predict another news story about Kandahar arriving on your news shortly.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14151048

Looks like you were right, AGAIN. So now Jamieson has to make even more unsourced assertions to try and prove you were actually wrong. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

That's true. I didn't even put HW108 on ignore....

[David Jamieson]

The thing is, western civilization doesn't get the fact that they are part of a very small minority. Most of the rest of the world is living in hovels, struggling to survive. It's foolish to think that just because everything in your field of knowledge has 3G iPads and hybrid cars, the rest of the world has to AT LEAST have running water, AC, and a nice front yard.

We have people living in huts, shacks, and anything else that provides shade. We have folks living in shells of buildings that were bombed before many of you were born, and look like they'll collapse at any moment.

And we also have those who just lie on the ground, looking like they are just waiting to die.

Awful lot of graveyards out here too...

"western civilization" :rolleyes:
YOu're pretty insulated dude.

Of course it's a dump where you are, it's been in a state of constant war for decades!

Get this in you soldier boy in plywood shack:

in the last decade 200 million people have been lifted straight up out of poverty and now have a decent standard of living in China.

India is fast on track to this state as well and in fact has more people than CHina above the poverty line.

Many middle eastern countries have great wealth and the people who reside in them are fairly ok and not anything like you say at all.

right now, we have 7 billion people on this planet. Better than Half of us are doing ok for the most part. I'm pretty sure we aren't all "western".

what a charming provincial view you have though.

also lol@bjboy. as soon as he can get a felllow attack puppy, he jumps in.
True mark of low intelligence/ high shill factor. :p

[KC Elbows]

I always find agreeing with people who agree with crazy people in the same post always adds to my point.:p:D

[David Jamieson]

I always find agreeing with people who agree with crazy people in the same post always adds to my point.:p:D

That's crazy, but I agree.

[BJJ-Blue]

That's true. I didn't even put HW108 on ignore....

Nor did you put me on ignore. ;)

[KC Elbows]

That's crazy, but I agree.

Exactly right.

[rett]

The normal, run of the mill Afghan sees the TB as animals.

My mom sat next to an Afghan refugee woman on a long-haul flight back in the 1990s some time. They talked for hours. I just heard a small part of their conversation about when the Taliban took over the first time.

The TB did the kinds of things that hurt just to hear. Unspeakably vicious things. They had no boundaries or decency at all, anywhere, in any way. You dont' need to be told that of course.

Anyhow I totally understand wanting to be there to keep them from returning to power and taking their revenge on everyone who has opposed them.

As I understand it, sure foreign armies are there helping the Afghans resist the TB. But the TB also are supported by foreign actors interfering for their own purposes. For example Pakistan, but it doesn't end there. There are even jihad-tourists coming in paying money to tribes for a chance to take potshots at military outposts. All I mean is that the "foreign interference" argument you hear from Jamieson cuts both ways.

[Drake]

My mom sat next to an Afghan refugee woman on a long-haul flight back in the 1990s some time. They talked for hours. I just heard a small part of their conversation about when the Taliban took over the first time.

The TB did the kinds of things that hurt just to hear. Unspeakably vicious things. They had no boundaries or decency at all, anywhere, in any way. You dont' need to be told that of course.

Anyhow I totally understand wanting to be there to keep them from returning to power and taking their revenge on everyone who has opposed them.

As I understand it, sure foreign armies are there helping the Afghans resist the TB. But the TB also are supported by foreign actors interfering for their own purposes. For example Pakistan, but it doesn't end there. There are even jihad-tourists coming in paying money to tribes for a chance to take potshots at military outposts. All I mean is that the "foreign interference" argument you hear from Jamieson cuts both ways.

Pakistan is the absolute worst. Everything else can be dealt with.

You see most of the potshots coming out of Zharay and Panjwa'i. The Noorzai feel slighted in the food chain, and thus, we get what we get.

[BJJ-Blue]

My father said recently he can tell that in Iraq, alot of people are on our side and want democracy. I asked how he could tell. He said if you watch video taken that shows Iraqi civilians, you will notice women wearing dresses, skirts, etc. Things that bare skin. He said they could not do that before we came in. So to him, he says that shows we have alot of average Iraqis who want us there so they can enjoy new freedoms, that do not hate our way of life, and do not want to return to how it was before we came over there.

Would you agree with that Drake? I'm really curious if his theory holds water.

[rett]

if you watch video taken that shows Iraqi civilians, you will notice women wearing dresses, skirts, etc. Things that bare skin. He said they could not do that before we came in.

Maybe they were more afraid of being noticed by Uday than any religious extremists...;)

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I realize you were asking Drake...

[sanjuro_ronin]

My father said recently he can tell that in Iraq, alot of people are on our side and want democracy. I asked how he could tell. He said if you watch video taken that shows Iraqi civilians, you will notice women wearing dresses, skirts, etc. Things that bare skin. He said they could not do that before we came in. So to him, he says that shows we have alot of average Iraqis who want us there so they can enjoy new freedoms, that do not hate our way of life, and do not want to return to how it was before we came over there.

Would you agree with that Drake? I'm really curious if his theory holds water.

Almost sounds like when Saddam was in power, LOL !