The end goal?

[Jubei1]

I'm sure the majority of ppl here have heard that the end goal of a martial art is to not fight.
To further this belief I have heard stories of a great martial artist who witnessed a man talk another man down from fighting then stating that "that was martial arts."

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc Would it not be better to study communication, conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques?

[lance]

I'm sure the majority of ppl here have heard that the end goal of a martial art is to not fight.
To further this belief I have heard stories of a great martial artist who witnessed a man talk another man down from fighting then stating that "that was martial arts."

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc Would it not be better to study communication, conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques?

Jubel1 hello , okay when you really learn martial arts you know how to hurt or kill right ? Because of the fact that you practice when you when time allows . now it ' s also good to talk yourself out of fighting with anybody which is right , but if the person does ' nt want to comply with you , and he attacks you for example for no reason at all . Then you by all means have the right to defend yourself . Which is what I would do myself . And I do have to admit too , talking yourself out of fighting does ' nt always work , but you can try , warning the person . But other than that we do have the right to defend ourself . Because Jubel , whatever I ' m telling you now is the samething I would do myself too . and continue to practice your drills . The forms are for traditional purposes , but it ' s the applications
that ' s going to really save your life . Depending on what kind of martial arts
you ' re practicing . If the person is just going to attack you , then you have to do what you really need to do to really defend yourself . No one has the right to attack you for no reason at all , so just use your own judgment in any situations .

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm sure the majority of ppl here have heard that the end goal of a martial art is to not fight.
To further this belief I have heard stories of a great martial artist who witnessed a man talk another man down from fighting then stating that "that was martial arts."

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc Would it not be better to study communication, conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques?

The end goal of MA is to SURVIVE a fight.

[ShortBridge]

The end goal of MA is to SURVIVE a fight.

Well, said. Whether by avoidance or domination.

That statement always bugged me when I was younger "when you learn, you won't have to fight". Still does a little bit, but here's what I've noticed, through training I develop a comfort level with things like range and position. Where I might have reached "fight or flight" before, now I think "I've got time" and maybe I can change or control those parameters enough that we never get there.

But, in the deepest, darkest part of my soul, I'm fine with fighting if it comes to that. I know myself well enough to know that it won't unless it needs to, in which case, no regrets.

[k gledhill]

Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced. So, avoid rather than check...etc.

[wtxs]

Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced. So, avoid rather than check...etc.

In the event your chance of survival is zip, and maim is not an option, you must resort to kill in order to survive, than kill.

[Tom Kagan]

I'm sure the majority of ppl here have heard that the end goal of a martial art is to not fight.
To further this belief I have heard stories of a great martial artist who witnessed a man talk another man down from fighting then stating that "that was martial arts."

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc Would it not be better to study communication, conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques?

The opponent in front of you is a red herring. When you understand this, you will understand how you constructed a strawman (wooden man?).

Fighting is the context, not a means to the end to which you refer.

[Jubei1]

Thanks everyone for contributing to my post, you have given me much food for thought.

Tom,
" u will understand how you constructed a strawman (wooden man?)."
"

That’s a very interesting statement. Can you please help me to understand the meaning.

p.s. did you train in the main Ny branch? I have met Sifu Pajil & Sifu Chan and I am impressed by their kindness and knowledge of VT. You are lucky to have trained in that environment.

[chusauli]

Martial arts is study of conflict - to contain it, to finish it, stop it before it starts, or even avoid it, as well as looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the body and weapons.

If you survive, your martial art survives, provided you can transmit it to others.

[Hendrik]

the end goal of couse is destruction.
and destruction is a new beginning of construction.


Thus, martial art is = the art of Destroy.
Thus, no matter how effective it is it is not something worth to boast because the world is a world of construction.


It is not the end goal which is the issue. it is to know when destruction is appropriet to carry out is the issue. For we dont want to play GOD to dictate the world. or subject to the karma of destruction we evoke.

[ShortBridge]

I love the book "Strong on Defense" and recommend it to everyone.

One of his main points is that unless you are military or law enforcement doing your job, your goal is always escape and survival. That doesn't mean you don't fight, he advocates that you do, viciously. But your goal is escape and survival. I'm on board.

[wolf3001]

Just my view on this but I feel training gives us the ability to survive a physical confrontation without serious injury. Someone who is good at it could avoid physically being injured by an attacker and if well trained could also use other techniques to subdue the attacker without to much harm. This to me is the highest form of martial art. You can't always talk people out of a fight and although communication skills are a good part of self defense I don't label them as martial in nature.

I was told Shaolin teaches and not in these exact words it is better to cause a bit of pain rather than maim. Better to maim than to kill and better to kill then be killed or allow others to be. I usually wont go out of my way to fight someone but im not all spiritual or philosophical about martial arts.

"I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me." - Archilochus, 650 B.C.

[Jansingsang]

Martial arts is study of conflict - to contain it, to finish it, stop it before it starts, or even avoid it, as well as looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the body and weapons.

If you survive, your martial art survives, provided you can transmit it to others.

Your Spot on the money Mr Chu. Reading it i immediately identified and visaulised from my own experience what you poetically conveyed Five stars, as the saying goes.. He who feels it knows it ;)

[anerlich]

Just my view on this but I feel training gives us the ability to survive a physical confrontation without serious injury.

It might tip the odds more in your favour, but guarantees nothing.

Best avoid fighting, defeat is not the sole province of non martial artists.

[YouKnowWho]

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc?

There is a big difference between "不為(Bu Wei) - you can do it but you don't want to do it" and "不能(Bu Neng) - you want to do it but you can't do it".

[mjw]

It's Karma, keeping positive energy plus a lot of taoist and confucist influence of CMA plus other things.

Why train all the punches etc?
I would say for preparedness discipline, confidence and health benefits of the exercise or that you like to do it????

[Tom Kagan]

Tom,
" u will understand how you constructed a strawman (wooden man?)."
"

That’s a very interesting statement. Can you please help me to understand the meaning.

What don't you understand about it?

[TenTigers]

There is a big difference between "不為(Bu Wei) - you can do it but you don't want to do it" and "不能(Bu Neng) - you want to do it but you can't do it".
aye, there's the rub.
Learning martial arts gives you the ability to deal with a confrontation, without your ego getting you in trouble.
When a child tries to hurt you, you don't go down to his level and smack him, you out maneuver him, mentally and/or physically. Likewise, when you have the ability to defend yourself, you don't need to prove anything, and it is easier to walk away.
There was a movie in the 70's interviewing various Martial Artists. it may have been called'Weaponless Warriors." Not sure, but there was a quote from a Martial Arist named Chakazulu, which I still use to this day;
"You can call me names, "pu$$y," Fa@@ot" whatever. I don't care. You put your hands on me, you're going to get hurt-bad."
I used to do personal protection, and I carried concealed. I never had to draw on anyone. Knowing that I had a gun, gave me the self-control not to use it, and use other means (my brain) not to resort to violence..

[YouKnowWho]

Learning martial arts gives you the ability to deal with a confrontation, without your ego getting you in trouble.

Learning MA is like to have a Walther PPK in your pocket. You know that you can gun down your opponent anytime you want to (you can do it). But since you may have to go to jail for the rest of your life for that, you just walk away (you don't want to do it).


I used to do personal protection, and I carried concealed. I never had to draw on anyone. Knowing that I had a gun, gave me the self-control not to use it, and use other means (my brain) not to resort to violence..
I did that once in my life. I told myself that in case any gun fight starts, I would run faster than the bullets. I had no intention to die for my temporary job that only paid $5 an hour (back in 1971). :D

[TenTigers]

I did that once in my life. I told myself that in case any gun fight starts, I would run faster than the bullets. I had no intention to die for my temporary job that only paid $5 an hour (back in 1971). :D
yep, it's not as glamorous as it sounded. My boss was working parties with Rod Stewart and Elton John, while I was stuck babysitting some rich ****** in his house in the Hamptons.
Oh well, it looked good on the resume'...

[Jubei1]

ten tigers,
"Learning martial arts gives you the ability to deal with a confrontation, without your ego getting you in trouble."

very well explained.

Tom,

I just never heard that statement before. what does it mean to make a "strawman?"

[CFT]

I just never heard that statement before. what does it mean to make a "strawman?"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Jubei1]

Thank you CFT.

[metrosonus]

I personally just don't like the connotations of "so you don't have to fight". I was never the kind of person to get into a fight over being cut in line or something and I was fortunate enough not to have to grow up in an environment where it was necessary.

So in essence I think the phrase has an air of implying that something was wrong with you and you needed martial arts as some sort of juvie boot camp for an attitude adjustment.

And that's honestly where I think the phrase comes from, the 70's. Factories closed and suddenly urban social programs sprung up that tried to keep kids busy and it just happened to coincide with a flourishing interest in martial arts.

I think really it's one of those nuggets of folk sayings that we wrongly attribute to some credible source. The first time I ever heard the phrase was in the karate kid and then from people that saw the movie. I've never heard it spoken in a school or from someone else that practiced martial arts.

Quite rightly, the end point is to survive a fight. But it's also about the journey and what we learn about ourselves along the way in the process.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have had things said to me that would cause the average man to attemp to kill you. Ego is strong, but it is not the real problem. Fear, and the feeling of insecurity is what makes a person appear aggressive. It is a cover, a showing that you are not afraid, or that you are willing to fight. This can occur on both sides and a fight is imminent because there are no checks. If you feel secure in the fact that you can defend yourself you are a lot less likely to become loud and defensive. One must however show at least some self confidence or he will be construed as fearful or cowardly, which then attracts a more aggressive afront from an antagonist. We train and study our art in the case that we can not have a rational dialog with said antagonist. And rather than wait until things have escolated to the point to where your opponent has actually squared off at you, and you have lost all advantage of surprise at this point, and he is in full fight mode, you simply take the initiative and crush his skull at the very first hint that he is going to carry it to a higher level.
In reality, you should only concern yourself with your own welfare. If he is insistant upon carrying it to that higher level, then it is on him and not you. You have to do what you have to do, yet you must also cover your own behind. You have to know just how far to go. Remember, leave no witnesses.

[EternalSpring]

I'm sure the majority of ppl here have heard that the end goal of a martial art is to not fight.
To further this belief I have heard stories of a great martial artist who witnessed a man talk another man down from fighting then stating that "that was martial arts."

My question is if the end goal of a martial art is not to fight and use any other method to avoid a physical conflict then why do we spend countless hours performing forms, stepping, punching, shifting, sensitivity drills…etc Would it not be better to study communication, conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques?

I look at it as similar to the reasons why countries have armies and other fighting forces. The goal of having such forces is not to simply just kill mass amounts of people, but if the need to fight arises, we want to be more than ready to take what comes our way. Communication skills, conflict resolution, and de-escalation techniques are good, but are not always guaranteed to work, especially if the aggressor is mentally and/or emotionally unstable. It is for these cases that we learn martial arts as well.

I once read that the "mar" in "martial arts" is in reference to Mars, the God of war. We always try to avoid war, but we know that it is inevitable at times. Once war/conflict begins, those who are unprepared will perish. In this sense, martial arts definitely is the art of sustaining and surviving oneself as well. Martial arts is best for use once the conflict has escalated to the level of a physical threat. All techniques of avoiding fights or de-escalating conflicts are manly best used before the physical threat has manifested in the form of combat.

That's my opinion on it

[YiQuanOne]

I would say a punch and a kick are a means to smash and crush your own ego.

Once you have done that then you do not need to prove anything to yourself or to anyone else because you are secure with yourself.

[anerlich]

There is no "end goal". You can follow a philosophy or religion, and apply that to training, but it isn't a necessary part of it.

My goals with training change and have changed from year to year. Becoming a Bhodisattva is not one of them. If I had an "end goal" and achieved it, what would I do then?

This stuff, and humans, if they view themselves realistically, operate on multiple levels, from basic and brutish to cerebral and "spiritual", if that means anything in the context.

You get confidence and self-control, and a realistic self-image from challenging yourself, and dealing successfully with challenging situations.

Martial skill is arguably one of the least important attributes for surviving a violent crime.

Touch wood, I've been able to deal with recent potential violence through engaging with the agressors verbally and in one recent case via non-verbal posturing. I guess I must have achieved the OP's end game. No way I've finished MA though, not even close.

MA training, TCMA, ITCMA, or whatever, is not sufficient to become a better person.

What do you think the "end game" is for a professional warrior, say a member of the armed forces or police?

[jesper]

There is no "end goal". You can follow a philosophy or religion, and apply that to training, but it isn't a necessary part of it.

What do you think the "end game" is for a professional warrior, say a member of the armed forces or police?

To get safely home in time for tea

[anerlich]

To get safely home in time for tea

Good answer.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Most people start into martial arts to learn to fight. If you train in a good school that goal will be satisfied rather quickly. Your martial arts should go on to mean many things for you.
Since I have learned to defend myself martial arts has given me:
A sense of community
health
Confidence
A systematic way to raise children
A way to give to others in the community

On the way to learning to defend yourself, your martial arts should be a vehicle to many things in your life. Defending myself was just a small start.

[nasmedicine]

The end goal of MA is to SURVIVE a fight.

Agreed. .

[nasmedicine]

I have had things said to me that would cause the average man to attemp to kill you. Ego is strong, but it is not the real problem. Fear, and the feeling of insecurity is what makes a person appear aggressive. It is a cover, a showing that you are not afraid, or that you are willing to fight. This can occur on both sides and a fight is imminent because there are no checks. If you feel secure in the fact that you can defend yourself you are a lot less likely to become loud and defensive. One must however show at least some self confidence or he will be construed as fearful or cowardly, which then attracts a more aggressive afront from an antagonist. We train and study our art in the case that we can not have a rational dialog with said antagonist. And rather than wait until things have escolated to the point to where your opponent has actually squared off at you, and you have lost all advantage of surprise at this point, and he is in full fight mode, you simply take the initiative and crush his skull at the very first hint that he is going to carry it to a higher level.
In reality, you should only concern yourself with your own welfare. If he is insistant upon carrying it to that higher level, then it is on him and not you. You have to do what you have to do, yet you must also cover your own behind. You have to know just how far to go. Remember, leave no witnesses.

well said, and I concur