females in traditional chinese martial arts

[Jian]

hi folks,

the times are changing and as we've seen at the recent tiger claw
tournament in san jose.. a strong presence of female martial artists. i also have a question about how supportive this space is for gay/lesbian folks.

two questions:
1. what do you think is the role of female martial artists in traditional
chinese martial arts?

2. is this a community open to gay/lesbian martial artists?

various opinions i've heard and inferred through observation:

- women are welcome but really it's the men that authentically carry on the lineage of our ancestors
- female martial artists are appreciated because they are feminine and sexy
- women are warriors just like men- take them seriously and promote them if they qualify
- ooh, lesbians with swords. hot.
- gay is fine as long as they stay away from me.
- wish we had more female participants
- who cares about gender and sexual orientation. this is a new era and as long as they care about the art that's all that matters.

any thoughts?

thanks,
jian

[David Jamieson]

1. to be martial artists

2. sexual orientation doesn't come into play in martial arts

:)

[Lucas]

i think the answer will vary depending on who you pose the question to.

here is my answer:

In a martial art training center, the focus is on training your martial art. There is no sexual atmosphere involved (this is how i view things of how i work and how i believe they should be in an environment that i participate in, and of course not how everyone else views or does things). Unless someone is quite very obviously gay or is in the habbit of advertising such, you would never know what sexual orientation your training partners hold. We do not go to the gym to have sexual relations.

Women do indeed have their place within the martial arts world. There have always been females interested in martial arts. Granted the vast majority of practitioners have been and currently are men, you do see a rising amount of women becoming interested in various forms of martial arts. I can share with you one aspect of insight our female counterparts can give us men; When a woman is practicing skill along side men who generally will outweight and out muscle her, she will be required to fall back on proper technique more than men will. And even as such, many times men will 'cheat' when working with a woman, because we can. There is a certain degree of refinement you see in women that is the product of this, often times required, element of training to succeed against a male counterpart in a competative training environment.

[Jian]

thanks for sharing.. i had heard from an acquaintance that she was kicked out of her chinese martial arts school when she "came out" as gay- that was 10 years ago.

that it's a non-issue and that the prime focus is on the art and training is what i thought, as well.

i agree that women (and smaller framed/sized martial artists) do have to rely more on technique as we can't really muscle our way through :)

[-N-]

it's a non-issue and that the prime focus is on the art and training [...]

There you go.

[Razaunida]

Women are great for training kung fu, but men should train with men and women should train with women.

I don't care if this isn't PC or fair, the fact is that a man who is raised as a gentleman won't want to hit the woman. Women rarely have the intention to really train for combat. If they do, then great tremendous respect, but for the most part they weaken the training environment and they cause injuries.

Women don't know they have power and every time I have seen an injury in martial arts it has been from a woman. They overpower because they perceive themselves as weak compared to men.

A woman should train with men only after lots and lots of advanced training. Again..its not fair, but life isn't fair and that is my experience after being in martial arts since I was 5.

[Jian]

razaunida, thanks for sharing. no worries about political correctness.

in my experience, injuries seem to happen more readily when there's not enough monitoring or students forget to "check themselves". also, a beginner or white belt that doesn't know control when executing strikes.. that is also much physically stronger and does not know their own power.. can be quite dangerous. i've seen injuries from training caused by all genders. i find it helpful, when paired up with someone that does not use good control, to communicate what my boundaries are.. and remind them often.

i'm not sure how women, as a whole, weaken the training environment. that seems to be a matter of personal preference and more about the individual.

[Punch.HeadButt]

1. what do you think is the role of female martial artists in traditional
chinese martial arts?

Same as any other practitioner, as dictated by their own motivations and goals.


2. is this a community open to gay/lesbian martial artists?

Asking me? Absolutely. As others have said, sexual orientation has little to no bearing on someone's ability to devote themselves to any particular art form.


- women are welcome but really it's the men that authentically carry on the lineage of our ancestors

Not true at all. Speaking only from an art I practice, Sun Tai Chi, Sun Lu-Tang's daughter Sun Jian Yun was the style's grandmaster before her passing and she indeed passed the art to various disciples. I've heard/read of other styles being carried by female lineage holders, but I'm not educated enough on them to speak definitively.


- female martial artists are appreciated because they are feminine and sexy

**** straight! But implying that's the ONLY reason they're appreciated would be doing them a terrible injustice. Devotion to an art is devotion to an art, regardless of what is or isn't dangling between your legs.


- women are warriors just like men- take them seriously and promote them if they qualify

Not terribly clear on what you mean by "qualify", but if you're saying their standing is dictated by their ability, then I would agree. I'm sure there is still some degree of sexism rearing its ugly head, but I can't think of a single "-ism" to date that's been stamped out completely.


- ooh, lesbians with swords. hot.

Hear that? That's the sound of agreement. :D


- gay is fine as long as they stay away from me.

That's gonna be a very individual view point. I have no problems being around gay/lesbian folks (can I throw out the "I have gay friends" line without it being cliche?). I'll admit, I have felt very uncomfortable in the few instances where gay fellas have attempted flirtation, but they backed off after I made my orientation clear and I don't feel any ill-will or anything.


- wish we had more female participants

Of course. The better the ratio, the better the party. :p


- who cares about gender and sexual orientation. this is a new era and as long as they care about the art that's all that matters.

If you show respect for the art and its practitioners through your actions (we all know talk's easy), then you belong and deserve to have that respect returned.

[Chan Da-Wei]

I’ve trained with my teacher, a woman, for 8 years. I’ve never gone ‘toe to toe’ in a ring with her, but we've 'knocked arms' a lot over the years. The heaviness in her arms along with seamless transfer of power from her legs into her hands results in a fair amount of power, for anyone of any size or gender. The fact that she’s a woman, in her late 50’s and five foot zip makes it all the more interesting for me as a student.

Before I met her, I trained in other arts and encountered male teachers with not much substance to what they did.

Females may not be able to match it physically with their male peers. But there really is not much difference learning from a female vs learning from a male.

[ginosifu]

In my school there is no difference between male and female. Everyone has their their own personal goals. Everyone practices the same way, without gender preferences.

I will tell everyone (male and female) the same thing: " There always uncomfortable situations in class where a technique or drill is aimed at your groin or chest area, if you are unconfortable with this then don't join the school."

On that same note, I will tell everyone when we spar: "Male or Female... when I fight you, be prepared, I will hit or kick in the groin"

Most people realize this is just part of the training. There is no sexual inuendo, there is male macho attitude, This is just the life of a Martial Artist.

Gay / Lesbian:

This has nothing to do with training. No one tells me there sexual preference. (even if they are heterosexual). Sexual activity of any kind is unexceptable in the school. No dating other students in the Kwoon / No Drama.

ginosifu

[Jian]

thanks for your supportive responses. i made the erroneous assumption that there would be more sexism and conservative views on the training floor, especially from traditional chinese sifu's. i'm glad i'm wrong.

[Razaunida]

I really believe that women have higher potential in martial arts than men, but they need to be trained differently.

Women have an easier time ditching the ego, but a harder time with contact.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I really believe that women have higher potential in martial arts than men, but they need to be trained differently.

Women have an easier time ditching the ego, but a harder time with contact.


In my experience women don't have a problem hitting someone hard, they have a problem with getting hit back hard.

[V.O.R.]

Women have an easier time ditching the ego, but a harder time with contact.

There we go with the elitist attitude again......nice going.

[taai gihk yahn]

There we go with the elitist attitude again......nice going.

yeah, if he had couched his remarks in a racist manner, it would have been much better;

otoh, u guys seem awful similar in your posting styles...

[Jian]

some women i've trained with have not been socialized at an earlier age to have a lot of tolerance for contact. my friend who leads classes in choy li fut says that females in his beginning class have a hard time sparring with men (esp the beginner men who hit hard) and tend to drop out easily. the ones that make it to advanced level do fine. being supportive while they become more accustomed to the nature of traditional martial arts training will help with retention.

as for the note about women being able to hit hard but not being able to be hit hard, i've seen that too (with a few exceptions). i think it's largely psychological. it would be of benefit for more women to develop that resiliency (and anyone for that matter, no matter what size).

[David Jamieson]

some women i've trained with have not been socialized at an earlier age to have a lot of tolerance for contact. my friend who leads classes in choy li fut says that females in his beginning class have a hard time sparring with men (esp the beginner men who hit hard) and tend to drop out easily. the ones that make it to advanced level do fine. being supportive while they become more accustomed to the nature of traditional martial arts training will help with retention.

mixed format is the problem.

women shouldn't be sparring with men.
adults should not be sparring with children.
adult learning is completely and utterly different from child learning.

when it gets mixed, you have these problems.

martial arts is specific. It is not always happy fun time and making it so dilutes and actually destroys the value.

[taai gihk yahn]

mixed format is the problem.

women shouldn't be sparring with men.

lol, tell that to Cyborg...

srsly, sum women I kno can hang w guys fine, but when skil and size are not in their favor, have a harder time of it than a guy wud (just IMPE);

what I think is more dangerous than women sparring men, is women playing soccer with them, which is fairly common in HS athletics these days..

[Jian]

i don't agree completely that women shouldn't spar with men. if the reason a female is having a hard time with contact is b/c its a 115 lb vs a 150 lb guy then that is a separate issue. and yes, there are 6 foot tall females in MMA that would beg to differ :).

i don't think it's of benefit to coddle female martial artists when it comes to training.. i think it helps in the beginning for some women, b/c like i said before, many girls just aren't used to being rough in the school yard like the boys and then they grow up with less resilience for contact.

out on the street, the attacker doesn't care...

[sanjuro_ronin]

From a practical stand point it makes sense for women to spar with men, obviously.
I think that, to start, even paring is crucial, but, and this could be my kyokushin side talking, nothing teaches you more about yourself then fighting some guy that is twice your size.

[David Jamieson]

lol, tell that to Cyborg...

srsly, sum women I kno can hang w guys fine, but when skil and size are not in their favor, have a harder time of it than a guy wud (just IMPE);

what I think is more dangerous than women sparring men, is women playing soccer with them, which is fairly common in HS athletics these days..

some women can fight.

maybe "some" is generous. I prefer "few".
Few women can fight.
Few women can hang with a guy in a fight. Even an untrained guy.
Few women do this. Now news there and to try to prop up an illusion taht women are also fighting beasts like men? Nah. They are more rare than gay people and gay people are statistically quite rare. some say 10% of the pop, but stats indicate it's actually less than 5% I wouldn't know what the stats are on female fighters, but they are FEW.

Skill and size and strength and drive to beat the living crap out of someone doesn't have the same level of throb as it does within a man, particularly a young man.

It's a waste of time to have them spar together on the median. I personally don't do it and won't do it. women fight women, kids fight kids and men fight men and the better they all get at it the more you can narrow it into more and more egalitarian aspects that will help to continue to improve the skills in all until the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

a woman facing a man in sparring all the time will not likely succeed in the median sense.

That which doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Sometimes it cripples you, or seriously effects your mind in such a way that you can't go on.

Bravado counts for nothing when you are up against a superior opponent contextually on every level.

[taai gihk yahn]

i don't agree completely that women shouldn't spar with men. if the reason a female is having a hard time with contact is b/c its a 115 lb vs a 150 lb guy then that is a separate issue. and yes, there are 6 foot tall females in MMA that would beg to differ :).

i don't think it's of benefit to coddle female martial artists when it comes to training.. i think it helps in the beginning for some women, b/c like i said before, many girls just aren't used to being rough in the school yard like the boys and then they grow up with less resilience for contact.

out on the street, the attacker doesn't care...

agreed; what u may need is more of an acclimation process to counteract the socialization and biological differential (which of course may not apply in many cases); in other words, you need to increase the pressure at a more incremental rate, but ultimately, womean needs MUST be exposed to sparring men with a significant weight / size difference, because that's what they may encounter for r3alz one day, and they need to b as prepared for it as possible;

altho I remember one time in my old TKD school, there were these two black belts, one male, one female; the gal had come from a kyokushin school, and she was tiny; and when I say tiny, I mean like 5' -2" or something; so, she was sparring the guy BB, and he basically was toying w her w his kicks, keeping her out of range - his whole atitude was like "I don't take u seriously at all"; at one point, he whacked her good w a hook kick, which ****ed her off; now she was small, but tough, and she could move well; so on his next head level kick, she ducked in and under, and uppercutted him in the balls; fight over...

[Razaunida]

women should be in the NFL, but would get destroyed if they tried.


just sayin...no matter how much people might think it should be...men and women are not the same.


Now maybe the nerds at your dojo are equal in size and physical ablility to women. Both can play pretend equally, but if you want something more realistic, you need to turn up the heat and women generally can't handle that.


Either can nerds...so its probably best that they stick together.

[taai gihk yahn]

some women can fight.

maybe "some" is generous. I prefer "few".
Few women can fight.
Few women can hang with a guy in a fight. Even an untrained guy.
Few women do this. Now news there and to try to prop up an illusion taht women are also fighting beasts like men? Nah. They are more rare than gay people and gay people are statistically quite rare. some say 10% of the pop, but stats indicate it's actually less than 5% I wouldn't know what the stats are on female fighters, but they are FEW.

Skill and size and strength and drive to beat the living crap out of someone doesn't have the same level of throb as it does within a man, particularly a young man.

It's a waste of time to have them spar together on the median. I personally don't do it and won't do it. women fight women, kids fight kids and men fight men and the better they all get at it the more you can narrow it into more and more egalitarian aspects that will help to continue to improve the skills in all until the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

a woman facing a man in sparring all the time will not likely succeed in the median sense.

That which doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Sometimes it cripples you, or seriously effects your mind in such a way that you can't go on.

Bravado counts for nothing when you are up against a superior opponent contextually on every level.
good points, I guess my bias is that in the world of MA, by the time most women get around to sparring seriously, the self selective aspect has been engaged, so it's typicaly those "few" of whom you speak that are there to begin with; so yes, i agree that to pair up some "barbie doll" type w a guy may not b prudent, but if u have a woman athlete who has played competative semi-contact sports like soccer, field hockey, etc., and she's motivated to learn to fight, then who is she going to learn from more sparring? another woman in the school who is not as skilled / motivated , or a guy who is? I mean, I guess it boils down to individual characteristics, as a teacher one has to weigh the pros and cons of each pairing...

[Jian]

thanks for posting, david, i appreciate your honest opinion.

this is not a competition for who is stronger male or female. i don't think what makes a martial artist great or ability to give honor to our ancestors by carrying on the lineage is all about who would win in an all out brawl based on who has more testosterone, power and aggression. if that were the case then, at least on just sparring (only one aspect of martial arts), you might as well eliminate all the weight classes and let the heavyweights rule. i give more credence to technique.

my main point in the beginning is learn how folks on the forum view females' role in traditional chinese martial arts

i agree it boils down to individual characteristics. i know a rail thin guy in my martial arts class who would not last in the ring... does this mean he's no good? perhaps he can make the most of his physical body.

[taai gihk yahn]

my main point in the beginning is learn how folks on the forum view females' role in traditional chinese martial arts
from a "traditional" Chinese Martial Arts perspective, you should all be at home making babies...(the whole female equality thing comes from the Commies, sorry to say...)

[bawang]

i agree it boils down to individual characteristics. i know a rail thin guy in my martial arts class who would not last in the ring... does this mean he's no good?
he is no good.

[Jian]

nice one. but i have found that what constitutes as "tradition" is ever changing and fortunately women can choose to make babies and/or participate in martial arts:rolleyes:

[Razaunida]

yes technique is good and ideal, but ultimately it comes down to this....Are you strong enough to keep from being defeated and seeing your women dragged off and dishonored only to late commit suicide?

Its a yes or no question.


Vandame beat up Tiger Li, but Tiger Li had already known that his girlfriend was a good lay. Not his gf has Tiger Li's baby.

Vandame lost.

[bawang]

thats where you are wrong. tradition is inflexible as diamond, and tradition never changes.

in modern times you can do whatever you want, but dont try to force your beliefs unto tradition.

[JamesC]

There's a reason that weight classes exist. Just sayin'.

[Razaunida]

nice one. but i have found that what constitutes as "tradition" is ever changing and fortunately women can choose to make babies and/or participate in martial arts:rolleyes:


No, they can and should train in martial arts, but should train with other women. Men who train with women turn into women. Women who train with men stay women.

Because men are nice to women.

Want this to stop?

[goju]

[QUOTE=Jian;1104740]
- who cares about gender and sexual orientation. this is a new era and as long as they care about the art that's all that matters./QUOTE]

I generally have this attitude. The few female students ive encountered were treated like everyone else by me. If we sparred i hit them but i keep the level of contact appropriate for my sparring partners skill level. If they are at my level we both go hard . If im better than them i ease back but still challenge them with out injuring them, this applied to women or men.

As far as sexual orientation goes its not important.I never knew any of my class mates orientation nor was i interested in discovering it.

[bawang]

in modern times women can train martial arts alongside men. in modern times you can also fuk another man up the ass , legally commit adultery, and abort fetuses, so what.

[taai gihk yahn]

in modern times women can train martial arts alongside men. in modern times you can also fuk another man up the ass , legally commit adultery, and abort fetuses, so what.

it IS a beautiful time to be alive, isn't it?

[David Jamieson]

thanks for posting, david, i appreciate your honest opinion.

this is not a competition for who is stronger male or female. i don't think what makes a martial artist great or ability to give honor to our ancestors by carrying on the lineage is all about who would win in an all out brawl based on who has more testosterone, power and aggression. if that were the case then, at least on just sparring (only one aspect of martial arts), you might as well eliminate all the weight classes and let the heavyweights rule. i give more credence to technique.

my main point in the beginning is learn how folks on the forum view females' role in traditional chinese martial arts

i agree it boils down to individual characteristics. i know a rail thin guy in my martial arts class who would not last in the ring... does this mean he's no good? perhaps he can make the most of his physical body.

It's not that I won't teach women and I think women can hold martial roles and be quite effective at doling out violence.

Just not pugilistically for the most part.

With women, treachery works a lot better in the areas of self defense and self preservation.

small weapons and soft targets are the effective teachings to give women and children. perhaps escape is big on the curriculum too.

Athletic women who can fight are extremely rare. Atletic women who can fight an athletic man...I don't know if such creatures actually exist with any ubiquity in our society. I have not observed that.

I also think TV contributes to a lot of delusion and when that delusion is shattered by a bip bop bink on the face...it all comes tumbling down for the woman.

I have observed this TOO many times to count in my 30+ years of hanging in Kwoons, dojos, fight clubs, etc. I have to accept it as a simple truth.

Don't hit girls. < why does this phrase even exist if we were remotely similar in physical capabilities on teh median.

The woman that wants to and actually can go h2h with a dude her size and skill? Ok? Let me know when you see her!

[Jian]

raz, nah, keep it going.. i knew what i was getting into when i entered the forum.

bawang, you're hilarious. i still disagree with your "analysis" on "tradition".. look over a span of thousands of years of history and then go into the future. very black and white thinking. but anyway, i won't get caught up on semantics.. more importantly just gathering opinions, which i have still found in general supportive.

[bawang]

china did have female generals. one of them was personally met by the emperor.

the difference is those women were huge and strong, had a small mustache, personally killed hundreds of men and commanded armies that killed thousands

[Razaunida]

Yes, Bulldyke lesbians are often good fighters.

There was a video with lucy liu with a transgenered girl/guy who can box very well. This is a different case. That was Mulan.

[ShortBridge]

So, I'm learning through this forum that I don't think I know or understand this "TCMA" community that we keep talking about. With respect to our club and the clubs we're related to in other cities that I've visited, we have a tradition of strong women. We put them through the same thing as we do men. It's hard, some of them break, some of the men break. Some of the women who do not, can and will hurt you and it makes me proud.

I completely disagree with segregating men and women in training. As for culture, I grew up a chivalrous southerner, but I smack the women in our club around every week and they smack me. I think from a self defense standpoint, women are much more likely to need to defend themselves against men than another women, so, they need to train that way. I can't speak for all styles, but if it really just comes down to who is bigger and stronger, why are we doing this? Your fate is written, no need to train.

As for cheating, yeah, absolutely, always cheat in a fight, man or woman. It's a fight, you're trying to win and not get hurt. We are expert cheaters.

Gays? Sadly I think rather than a question for the TCMA Community, it's a question of time and geography. I live on the west coast of the US in the year 2011 and almost no one has a hangup about ****sexuality here. I know it's not that way everywhere. I think some day it might be, but it's going to take a long time in some places. Again, women need to be able to defend themselves, sadly so do gays, especially gay men, who still are subject of bashing sometimes, even on the west coast. Why wouldn't you want to train them if they and you thought it might help? I realize we could argue about that, but those are my views and it's not worth trying to convince me otherwise.



- women are welcome but really it's the men that authentically carry on the lineage of our ancestors


I don't see that glass ceiling in my circles.



- female martial artists are appreciated because they are feminine and sexy


Well....yeah. Was that in question?



gay is fine as long as they stay away from me.


You know, I don't know if this is a martial arts question or not. I'm a married, straight male and before I knew gay men and women personally, I had some fears associated with them. Now that I do, I understand how unfounded they are. Gay men like gay men, they don't feel attraction to women or straight men. Same with gay women, it's got nothing to do with me. I have plenty of friends/coworkers etc in each camp and my relationship with them is exactly the same as it is with straight men and women. Certainly reason not to train with someone on this point. My personal views, probably not that uncommon on the west coast, I realize it's not that way everywhere.

There is no telling how many closeted football/baseball/basketball players, actors, politicians, pop stars etc there are or for that matter friends and family members we each have. Someday they won't be and we'll have to deal with the fact that people we like, were comfortable with yesterday, who are good at their jobs and maybe even great UFC fighters have a fondness for members of their own gender.

So, i was just lamenting that I get attacked on this forum for posting things about kung fu training that I don't think should be controversial and here I am posting something that I know some people will take strong exception to. Flame on if you must.

I'm sorry about your friend's negative experience.

[Jian]

No, they can and should train in martial arts, but should train with other women. Men who train with women turn into women. Women who train with men stay women.

Because men are nice to women.

Want this to stop?

we're not talking about training in all women or all male schools :). when i was an upper level training with a beginner i'd work on different techniques than when i was paired up with an advanced martial artist. for example, if i was much stronger i'd experiment more and try my weaker side. also, when sparring against people of different sizes i found it helpful to work on different stuff. then i'd get paired up with someone of my weight class and same level and could go all out... i did enjoy the synchronicity of that pairing.

so i think it is possible for a male to train with a female (and benefit) even if he's much physically stronger and could outpower her... but if it's a matter of personal preference, sure, you don't have to work with women if you don't find it helpful.

[Razaunida]

One time I did a full contact rape prevention class.

I invited some ex cons to teach how they would rape so that the women would know how real rapists go about it.

Then came the partner work.

One guy did get hurt and the woman got away. The rest didn't. Needless to say that things really didn't go as planned.


I had to change my name and move.

[bawang]

when i spar with womans it give me boner

[Razaunida]

we're not talking about training in all women or all male schools :). when i was an upper level training with a beginner i'd work on different techniques than when i was paired up with an advanced martial artist. for example, if i was much stronger i'd experiment more and try my weaker side. also, when sparring against people of different sizes i found it helpful to work on different stuff. then i'd get paired up with someone of my weight class and same level and could go all out... i did enjoy the synchronicity of that pairing.

so i think it is possible for a male to train with a female (and benefit) even if he's much physically stronger and could outpower her... but if it's a matter of personal preference, sure, you don't have to work with women if you don't find it helpful.

I agree, particularly with sensitivity training, but there is a degree where you need to kick things up a notch and women usually opt to watch at that point.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4LcLvdNWk

[David Jamieson]

so i think it is possible for a male to train with a female (and benefit) even if he's much physically stronger and could outpower her... but if it's a matter of personal preference, sure, you don't have to work with women if you don't find it helpful.

yep, I agree. Men and Women can share some aspects of training together.

sometime the learning environment we create for ourselves as martial artists is contradictory to what an environment of learning should be for a martial artist.

ergo, no women sparring men and vice versa and no kids with adults.
It takes too long for anyone to get halfway proficient when they are not working wit the best possible materials.

Some say "poor is the carpenter who blames his tools"
But I say : "poor is the carpenter who's only tool is a hammer and who can only see every project as nails to be banged in".

Not all aspects of martial arts can be serviceable in a cross gender way.

[Jian]

thanks! i appreciate your sentiments (below)... i also train in the west coast and have found folks here very open-minded. i personally prefer training at schools with mixed genders too. i've read some comments in other threads and actually expected folks to be more conservative, and have been surprised to find support for both women and gay folks.


So, I'm learning through this forum that I don't think I know or understand this "TCMA" community that we keep talking about. With respect to our club and the clubs we're related to in other cities that I've visited, we have a tradition of strong women. We put them through the same thing as we do men. It's hard, some of them break, some of the men break. Some of the women who do not, can and will hurt you and it makes me proud.

I completely disagree with segregating men and women in training. As for culture, I grew up a chivalrous southerner, but I smack the women in our club around every week and they smack me. I think from a self defense standpoint, women are much more likely to need to defend themselves against men than another women, so, they need to train that way. I can't speak for all styles, but if it really just comes down to who is bigger and stronger, why are we doing this? Your fate is written, no need to train.

As for cheating, yeah, absolutely, always cheat in a fight, man or woman. It's a fight, you're trying to win and not get hurt. We are expert cheaters.

Gays? Sadly I think rather than a question for the TCMA Community, it's a question of time and geography. I live on the west coast of the US in the year 2011 and almost no one has a hangup about ****sexuality here. I know it's not that way everywhere. I think some day it might be, but it's going to take a long time in some places. Again, women need to be able to defend themselves, sadly so do gays, especially gay men, who still are subject of bashing sometimes, even on the west coast. Why wouldn't you want to train them if they and you thought it might help? I realize we could argue about that, but those are my views and it's not worth trying to convince me otherwise.



I don't see that glass ceiling in my circles.



Well....yeah. Was that in question?



You know, I don't know if this is a martial arts question or not. I'm a married, straight male and before I knew gay men and women personally, I had some fears associated with them. Now that I do, I understand how unfounded they are. Gay men like gay men, they don't feel attraction to women or straight men. Same with gay women, it's got nothing to do with me. I have plenty of friends/coworkers etc in each camp and my relationship with them is exactly the same as it is with straight men and women. Certainly reason not to train with someone on this point. My personal views, probably not that uncommon on the west coast, I realize it's not that way everywhere.

There is no telling how many closeted football/baseball/basketball players, actors, politicians, pop stars etc there are or for that matter friends and family members we each have. Someday they won't be and we'll have to deal with the fact that people we like, were comfortable with yesterday, who are good at their jobs and maybe even great UFC fighters have a fondness for members of their own gender.

So, i was just lamenting that I get attacked on this forum for posting things about kung fu training that I don't think should be controversial and here I am posting something that I know some people will take strong exception to. Flame on if you must.

I'm sorry about your friend's negative experience.

[V.O.R.]

Here is Sifu Gus's female student sparring a man in Wong Peoples tournament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JwYlluTOEI

[Jian]

I agree, particularly with sensitivity training, but there is a degree where you need to kick things up a notch and women usually opt to watch at that point.

fine, fine, i think you've made your point :). i still think that among all women and men there's a great diversity that is not being acknowledged. there is always the barbie doll woman and rail thin guy as well females such as the Cyborg and Lana Stefanac. my guess is you'd rather spar with lana stefanac.

[David Jamieson]

Here is Sifu Gus's female student sparring a man in Wong Peoples tournament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JwYlluTOEI

Nice! How many like her in Gus' school?

[Jian]

cool, thanks for sharing


Here is Sifu Gus's female student sparring a man in Wong Peoples tournament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JwYlluTOEI

[David Jamieson]

fine, fine, i think you've made your point :). i still think that among all women and men there's a great diversity that is not being acknowledged. there is always the barbie doll woman and rail thin guy as well females such as the Cyborg and Lana Stefanac. my guess is you'd rather spar with lana stefanac.

Jian - Be careful.

Cyborg and other woman fighters are outliers. There are so few of them, that is the only category they fit into.

[MasterKiller]

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/1a/2f/1a2fec_178105.gif

[Jian]

Jian - Be careful.

Cyborg and other woman fighters are outliers. There are so few of them, that is the only category they fit into.

it doesn't matter if they are currently outliers given the present involvement of female martial artists.they are still women. to even have a woman participate thousands of years ago, period, was an outlier too.. but times have changed. this is why i'm curious about the current sentiment and intention of chinese martial artists here.. and whether there is support.

that being said, i think the thread as moved far from chinese martial arts and focused excessively on sparring ability, fighting and brute strength (male vs female). i'm going to focus my attention back on the original thread.

thanks to everyone for posting!

[Razaunida]

that is good, she must have had to overcome lots of conditioning.


Or she is low class and was never taught to be soft or refined.

The Tanya Hardings and Latina Cholos don't count in my assesment of women fighting.

Just middle class white girls which is the majority of American ladies.

[V.O.R.]

that is good, she must have had to overcome lots of conditioning.


Or she is low class and was never taught to be soft or refined.

The Tanya Hardings and Latina Cholos don't count in my assesment of women fighting.

Just middle class white girls which is the majority of American ladies.

Latina Cholo's? I thought female cholo's were called "CHOLA's"?

so i guess "UNITED RACE" is really talking about the WHTIE race by using a latin name.

Elitists have little penuses

[bawang]

what should i do if i do push hand with a lady and i get bonner

[ShortBridge]

If the goal of your school is to train fighters for competition, then I think there is some validity to the "women shouldn't spar with men" rule.

If the goal of your school is to train people in personal self defense, they must if they are training to defend themselves against men. Same with weight classes, if your goal is real world self-defense, you don't get to pick the size or gender of your opponent, so you shouldn't train that way.

[Razaunida]

Once I was at a temple doing push hands with a hot female monk. I touched her nai nai by accident and I got a boner. I kept going high and she would do liu to contract and pull back into her nai, I think she liked it. Her nipple got hard.


Good for her and good for me.

[Jian]

that is good, she must have had to overcome lots of conditioning.


Or she is low class and was never taught to be soft or refined.

The Tanya Hardings and Latina Cholos don't count in my assesment of women fighting.

Just middle class white girls which is the majority of American ladies.


so, by your analysis...
-- if they are feminine, soft, and refined (which by definition is tied in with less "ability" or "nature" to fight or take a hit).. that constitutes "femaleness". since those females can't fight, therefore they should not train with men.

-- if they are strong and can fight, then therefore they are not truly ladies and are not women, and don't count in the assessment of women fighting.

you've already defined the parameters to make your argument.

yes, yes, some of the posters here see women as sexual objects not as martial artists, i expected that. nice.

[bawang]

r u a sexy womans

i like the ones with the yellow hairs

[Razaunida]

so, by your analysis...
-- if they are feminine, soft, and refined (which by definition is tied in with less "ability" or "nature" to fight or take a hit).. that constitutes "femaleness". since those females can't fight, therefore they should not train with men.

-- if they are strong and can fight, then therefore they are not truly ladies and are not women, and don't count in the assessment of women fighting.

you've already defined the parameters to make your argument.

yes, yes, some of the posters here see women as sexual objects not as martial artists, i expected to see some guys with that opinion.



Yes, yes, everyone is equal in la la land. Asians can slam dunk, Latinos get Nobel Prizes and Jews dominate in team sports. Oh what? This is reality!??! Thats not fair!

I was also talking about social class and culture. Middle class white women are not good at fighting.

[David Jamieson]

If the goal of your school is to train fighters for competition, then I think there is some validity to the "women shouldn't spar with men" rule.

If the goal of your school is to train people in personal self defense, they must if they are training to defend themselves against men. Same with weight classes, if your goal is real world self-defense, you don't get to pick the size or gender of your opponent, so you shouldn't train that way.

somewhat agree.

However, I would tend to teach much more deceptive and treacherous stuff to women and kids even in those circumstances. And NOT focus on male v female, brute strength vs non-brute strength etc.

I wouldn't want a small women boxing a large man, I'd want her to make a short sharp shock and escape before she got done. Sparring in a kickboxing format? Not cross gendered. It's not productive in a big sense.

[Lucas]

If you teach martial arts, you are looking for exceptional students. male or female. there is a large amount of guys that quit. if you find an exceptional individual, male or female, you are blessed as a teacher. these are the people you seek as a teacher. when they find you, teach them. everyone else, male or female, that cannot hack it, is just fodder to train on.

if you have a woman that is serious about training all the way, why hold them back and put them with women who arent? of course keep the women who dont want to train with men away from the men, but if a woman says i want to fight men, let her. otherwise dont train any women at all in any way.

this is all my opinion.

[David Jamieson]

sounds more appropriate

Personally, i feel a female should train to deal with strong men. they will need it when a man attacks them. but some men just can't handle a strong woman. :rolleyes:

And Sifu Gus K's student is HOT. i find a strong woman to be very sexy. :D

I agree. Females should train to deal with strong men attacking them.

But by dueling them?

Non. Je ne peux pas accepter moins. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This comment on the You Tube page VOR posted speakes volumes on what many "Kung Fu" people believe.:rolleyes:

"Im sorry dont mean to be disrespectful but I hate seeing Kung Fu practitioners fight like kick boxers. If she applied the Kung Fu that she was taught then she would be cleaning house!"

[Razaunida]

Why are people so brain washed into believing that men and women should be equal that they actually believe that they are.

This puts a lot of useless pressure on women.

Why must a woman be a woman and a man and a man only has to be a man?

Men and women are not equal. Women are far above in some ways and men are far above in other ways.

The myth of equality is just that. No one really believes it and it is a huge waste of time and energy to try to pretend that everyone is the same.

What I said about white women having a hard time hitting is what many white women (middle class) have told me.

Latinas, Indian girls, and trailer white girls have no problem fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Why are people so brain washed into believing that men and women should be equal that they actually believe that they are.

This puts a lot of useless pressure on women.

Why must a woman be a woman and a man and a man only has to be a man?

Men and women are not equal. Women are far above in some ways and men are far above in other ways.

The myth of equality is just that. No one really believes it and it is a huge waste of time and energy to try to pretend that everyone is the same.

What I said about white women having a hard time hitting is what many white women (middle class) have told me.

Latinas, Indian girls, and trailer white girls have no problem fighting.

A pound of gold weighs as much as a pound of lead. they have many of the same properties as well.

[ShortBridge]

somewhat agree.

However, I would tend to teach much more deceptive and treacherous stuff to women and kids even in those circumstances. And NOT focus on male v female, brute strength vs non-brute strength etc.

I wouldn't want a small women boxing a large man, I'd want her to make a short sharp shock and escape before she got done. Sparring in a kickboxing format? Not cross gendered. It's not productive in a big sense.

Actually we train men in treachery and deception as well.

[Razaunida]

If we didn't, there would be far fewer pregnant women.


Hey sexy..I'm a rich man...and I'm hardworking and nice to everyone....that is treachery.

muahhahahah.

[Razaunida]

1. Elitist? no.

2. Samoan/Tongan girls can fight. They are also good in bed.

3. Middle and upper class black girls can't fight. Low class black girls can.



Class is a better indicator of values than race. Values and upbringing determine behavior more than skin colour.

[MasterKiller]

r u a sexy womans

i like the ones with the yellow hairs

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/transformersfailp1.gif

[ShortBridge]

Why are people so brain washed into believing that men and women should be equal that they actually believe that they are.

This puts a lot of useless pressure on women.

Why must a woman be a woman and a man and a man only has to be a man?

Men and women are not equal. Women are far above in some ways and men are far above in other ways.

The myth of equality is just that. No one really believes it and it is a huge waste of time and energy to try to pretend that everyone is the same.

What I said about white women having a hard time hitting is what many white women (middle class) have told me.

Latinas, Indian girls, and trailer white girls have no problem fighting.

"Equality" is a very broad topic that I'd like to avoid debating outside of the context of women training in self defense. If they come to me because they want to be able to defend themselves, I would not tell them they were "equal" to their unknown assailant. I don't think I would tell a man that either. I would try to help them develop the skills that improved their chances of avoiding and surviving an attack.

If a woman is uncomfortable hitting someone and she wants to develop those skills (and I agree that this is common), I would work with her on getting comfortable with it and then take her as far as she was able and willing to go, rather than say "welcome, I'm going to put you in the delicate flower group where I think you'll be more comfortable".

[Razaunida]

true, but on the other hand the men will always train differently with a woman than a man. Sometimes for the better when it is training techniques, but once things become live putting men and women together is not a good idea.

[bawang]

There are many poor people out in the world that will know more true happiness than what your money can bring you. shallow as$ weaklings.
i use manay to buy kfc every day and play on xbox. i am too many happy

i love the manays

[Razaunida]

Come on now. you reak of "I'm ELITE"......

and i doubt you know about tongan or samoan lovers. i really doubt it.

On earth, there's only one race. HUMAN. all the rest are just Ethnicities. People who judge you based off of class are ELITIST SCUM. no better than anyone on any level you just think you're better than others.



yeah you're right. When you think you're high class, all others are just peasants. But its the peasants who laugh and point their fingers at the weak elitests who can and love to dish out hatred to anything they feel is beneath them which i find ironic as no ELITIST would turn down the assistance of a "COMMONER" if his life were on the line.

There are many poor people out in the world that will know more true happiness than what your money can bring you. shallow as$ weaklings.



Why do you have a chip on your shoulder? Why do you fantasize that being poor and powerless is good. I started out as poor and powerless and changed my situation. I don't care if you say elitist, I say free. Education, money and power give me freedom. Stay proud and caged. KFC is awesome...Today for lunch I had 2 steaks with plum wine. When I was young I got malnutrition. I am so happy now.

[David Jamieson]

There are two things I never want to be:

1. rich

2. famous

I don't understand why people want these things. They seem like a royal pain in the arse to the people that do have them.

Stability, contentment, friends and family are more than enough for this cat. I don't hate money, but I'll be screwed if I'm gonna chase it. lol

Being impoverished is no easy street either. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Have moved on, long ago.

[Razaunida]

There are two things I never want to be:

1. rich

2. famous

I don't understand why people want these things. They seem like a royal pain in the arse to the people that do have them.

Stability, contentment, friends and family are more than enough for this cat. I don't hate money, but I'll be screwed if I'm gonna chase it. lol

Stability and money is freedom.


People only become famous to get rich. The wealthy can afford middle class comfort. They don't need large displays of wealth and fame because they have social connections and education that will ensure that their kids can also have comfort. Rags to riches billionaires are not as well off as middle class US families where everyone has education. The first generation money without education and a stable government can blow away too easily.

[David Jamieson]

Stability and money is freedom.


People only become famous to get rich. The wealthy can afford middle class comfort. They don't need large displays of wealth and fame because they have social connections and education that will ensure that their kids can also have comfort. Rags to riches billionaires are not as well off as middle class US families where everyone has education. The first generation money without education and a stable government can blow away too easily.

What about the large group of complete and utter morons who inherit their wealth over many generations?

You are defending wealthy people? I never attacked them. They are not all stable and content. IN fact, I would say that this is quite the opposite in many cases.

mo money= mo problems

mo fame = mo problems

Money is no shield. Your dollar could have no value as of tomorrow if the winds of commerce change.

Fame is no shield, even the best are forgotten.

Many people who are wealthy do flaunt it with vehicles, houses, travel, leisure time and so on.

I don't put a lot of stock in monetary wealth. I personally know more than a few millionaires just by chance of life, and have even met a few billionaires through lines of work.

It seemed like the richer they got, the more their wealth management activities sucked the life from them.

I don't begrudge a man his wealth either. I am just not interested in it.
Money has a weird effect on people. Especially those with a love for it.

After all, the love of money is the root of all evil. :)

[Razaunida]

the chip on my shoulder must be from the dust of the Boulder that sits on yours. I got some overspill from you.

Free means you are not bound by ethnicity, class, appearance, or any other shallow idea that comes with it. Free is not having to worry about paying rent, taxes, and living with ELITISTS who are nothing more than weak individuals in the first place.

The Free do not oppress others to maintain their own freedom. and the fact that you had two steak and plum wine means you are an alcoholic who uses MEALTIME to get your drink on. But you still look malnutritioned.

I'd rather be broke and happy than Rich and Miserable.



The world is not what you wish it to be. And it isn't one or the other.

[bawang]

i was broke and for some reasons it did not make me happy

i will investigate further

[Razaunida]

That is because only people who have safety and wealth idealize being poor. Poor means that you can't stop oppression. Justice is expensive.

I remember once getting ripped off when I was a kid and no one would do anything because we were just Mexicans. It ****ed me off and motivated me to have a position in society that would grant me equal status.

Happiness has everything to do with getting your basic needs met...after that if you can't be happy its a mental disease.

You can be aloof and spiritual Guru in India, but when your mom has to be a ***** to get enough food you don't seem so spiritual, you become a d-bag. A real holy man would bust his ass to make enough money to buy women and children out of prostitution. I do that. I bust my ass to make business opportunites for people who have no chance. I don't give handouts, I make roads. It takes an elitist mindset to do that. I could just care about myself and be content and poor in the US (rich by world standards) but I'm not a d-bag. I care about people in 3rd world countries who happen to be my family. I am connected to them so my success is there chance at getting the necessities of life.

[David Jamieson]

i was broke and for some reasons it did not make me happy

i will investigate further

money won't make you happy either!

it will make your misery somewhat more bearable though. :)

good relationships, good health, contentment in accomplishments.
This is what makes me happiest.

[bawang]

i disagree

on the east coast a bucket of 15 piece kfc cost 17.99, 16.99 with coupons

in ontario it costs 30 dollars and i am unable to find or procure coupons

this is has caused significant lowering of my happy

[David Jamieson]

i disagree

on the east coast a bucket of 15 piece kfc cost 17.99, 16.99 with coupons

in ontario it costs 30 dollars and i am unable to find or procure coupons

this is has caused significant lowering of my happy

why don't you take a job at kfc?
total win/win for you!
:)

[Razaunida]

It is a misconception that black people alone love fried Chicken.

Every city block in China has a KFC and in Guangzhou they have bruce lee chicken. I don't think there is anything more afrocentric than Bruce Lee chicken.

[bawang]

why don't you take a job at kfc?
total win/win for you!
:)

kfc do not offer free meals or large discounts to employees

if i posessed more monays i can procure more kfc which will result in increased happy


and in ontario they salt the chickens up to try to make me buy a drink. instead i take a napkin and wipe off the salt. fuk em.

[David Jamieson]

kfc do not offer free meals or large discounts to employees

if i posessed more monays i can procure more kfc which will result in increased happy


and in ontario they salt the chickens up to try to make me buy a drink. instead i take a napkin and wipe off the salt. fuk em.

take a job as a cook and degrade yourself by taking the "spillage".
Also, video tape of yourself crying as you eat this spillage would be cool! We could make a documentary and you could buy more chicken?

too much all at once?

[bawang]

you guys dont seem to understand.


when i was a kid in china i ate kfc a total of two times.

one time my mother bought me a hamburger, she waited in line for over half an hour, and it cost 50 dollars.

the other time i got invited to a rich friends birthday party, it cost them 350 dollars total. when they were playing i took a sack and gathered all their leftovers.


you guys will never understand the gift of kernel sanders. praise him.

[Razaunida]

I understand bawang. When I was a kid a girl gave me a KFC leg. I ate it and started to eat the bones and marrow and another boy took it and threw it away.

I cried.


I love KFC, so much nourishment. At the time I was underweight and my bones broke easily.

Now I can have KFC and I love it. Chinese KFC doesn't have buscuits..its bull****.

[Razaunida]

no, his values demonstrate that he is Chinese.


Yours show that you are middle class and white. Both are good, but you can tell where people are from by their values.

[bawang]

Fuk to you

i am a warrior

[David Jamieson]

Fuk to you

i am a warrior

so, you'll take the job then, get us chicken, make the doc and buy more chicken?

[bawang]

msg is hell of a drug


Snooty Snob Elitists ALWAYS get the as$ses beaten by poor folk which is the main reason why Elitists hate those who pretend to be ELITE.

having money or being white doesn't make you elite.

take a look in the mirror

[Razaunida]

you just don't hear that about mexicans. you are lying.

I'm Mexinese. Mexican Mom, Chinese Dad.

That means that I can fight, feck, dance and think. Hybrid vigor. I can pass for both after a month in each country. At first I look like a lao wai, but later they think I am a minority from Yunnan.

Actually Mexicans and Chinese have a long history.

Why do you hate white people so much? You are some kind of Italian, but you can still pass for white. Use your white power to benefit the world, not just yourself.

[bawang]

so, you'll take the job then, get us chicken, make the doc and buy more chicken?

im going to stay in skoos, make 100k a year, then buy lifetime supply

[taai gihk yahn]

the other time i got invited to a rich friends birthday party, it cost them 350 dollars total. when they were playing i took a sack and gathered all their leftovers.

in tribute I shall send my son to bed with no diner tonite with no explanation...

[bawang]

it actually happened, she never spoke to me after that

[Jian]

getting to responses...


Yes, yes, everyone is equal in la la land. Asians can slam dunk, Latinos get Nobel Prizes and Jews dominate in team sports. Oh what? This is reality!??! Thats not fair!

I was also talking about social class and culture. Middle class white women are not good at fighting.

well, if you want to live according to stereotypes and sentiments of the mainstream, it's your life, who am i to argue? btw, u keep bringing up the "equality" argument. no one is making that argument so you're just setting yourself up.



somewhat agree.

However, I would tend to teach much more deceptive and treacherous stuff to women and kids even in those circumstances. And NOT focus on male v female, brute strength vs non-brute strength etc.

I wouldn't want a small women boxing a large man, I'd want her to make a short sharp shock and escape before she got done. Sparring in a kickboxing format? Not cross gendered. It's not productive in a big sense.

definitely. i think the "deceptive and treacherous stuff" and what my shifu would call "secrets" is what i love about martial arts.



sounds more appropriate

Personally, i feel a female should train to deal with strong men. they will need it when a man attacks them. but some men just can't handle a strong woman. :rolleyes:

And Sifu Gus K's student is HOT. i find a strong woman to be very sexy. :D

i think women can definitely benefit from training with stronger men. and it's true that some men can't handle strong women. to each their own.



If you teach martial arts, you are looking for exceptional students. male or female. there is a large amount of guys that quit. if you find an exceptional individual, male or female, you are blessed as a teacher. these are the people you seek as a teacher. when they find you, teach them. everyone else, male or female, that cannot hack it, is just fodder to train on.

if you have a woman that is serious about training all the way, why hold them back and put them with women who arent? of course keep the women who dont want to train with men away from the men, but if a woman says i want to fight men, let her. otherwise dont train any women at all in any way.

this is all my opinion.

right on, lucas. totally agree.



No, when i train females i train them to effectively defend themselves. i don't expect them to go toe to toe with a man. its like man vs grizzly imho. but giving a female the sense of confidence to know she really can protect herself is a liberating thing for them.

At home, i randomly (and not too hard) try to smack my girl in the face when she's not looking...sometimes with more than three strikes at one time. at first she hated it. next she started blocking them... She thought i was bullying her only to realize i was training her to protect herself from hands she didn't want touching her. (yes not even my hands hardy har..)

Today, she is my private student.

I think that's great training for a woman, and anyone to build resilience.

[taai gihk yahn]

it actually happened, she never spoke to me after that

then I shall also forbid my son from seeing one of his friends ever again (I'll let him pick which one)

[Razaunida]

Full of sh1t! you are neither. you are WHITE

I wish, I could make money so much easier. I do have a lot of white culture having lived so long in the US. My Mexican cousins call me a gringo.

I guess that is me being elitist huh? Am I sounding white?

Well my parents were actually poor so we were clean and I had to study a lot.

White trash are really rich so they can afford to be lazy dirty pigs.

That is why Mexicans and Chinese will be the new elite. We will go to Iowa for sex tourism.

[taai gihk yahn]

i think women can definitely benefit from training with stronger men. and it's true that some men can't handle strong women. to each their own.
my wife is Russian; she speaks 6 languages; she started med school at 15, is an OB/GYN and works up to 80 hrs/week sometimes; she trained sambo; she jumped out of airplanes (with a parachute, c'mon); she drives a black STI she calls "Kali the Beast"; she's an RYT and French-trained DO; she paints / draws / makes her own perfumes;

I clean the bathrooms...

;)

[bawang]

wow that is a nice wife. from what website can i purchase please?

[Razaunida]

my wife is Russian; she speaks 6 languages; she started med school at 15, is an OB/GYN and works up to 80 hrs/week sometimes; she trained sambo; she jumped out of airplanes (with a parachute, c'mon); she drives a black STI she calls "Kali the Beast"; she's an RYT and French-trained DO; she paints / draws / makes her own perfumes;

I clean the bathrooms...

;)


I'm sorry I insulted you wife, please don't tell her. You are smart to marry a woman like her. Much respect.

[Razaunida]

you haven't proven otherwise. :rolleyes:

Can I borrow some money?

[taai gihk yahn]

Does your wifey beat you for not doing it? :p

no, she just has to look at me a certain way when I don't...:p

[taai gihk yahn]

wow that is a nice wife. from what website can i purchase please?

lol, we actually did "meet' online, it was a forum for osteopaths (I was studying in Toronto at the time - mayb I saw u on "Spadeena" St. once...:eek:)

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm sorry I insulted you wife, please don't tell her. You are smart to marry a woman like her. Much respect.

I'm sorry, and you are...?

[Razaunida]

King of the motha ficking mountian.

[taai gihk yahn]

King of the motha ficking mountian.

is that what they r calling the Randall Ave projects these days?

[bawang]

frank, you need to calm down and do some squats. it will make a man out of you

[bawang]

dont utter another word about my mother, you son of a beech.

[Razaunida]

why are you guys so mean?

Your wife is great and works 80 hours a week.

This is why you post many times. You need a concubine. Get a black one, they are better for your kidneys. Black chickens are the best. Black concubines aren't as pretty and really hard to find when the lights are out, but they have endurance and are good for your kung fu.

Russians are great, but they grow on you.

[taai gihk yahn]

frank, you need to calm down and do some squats. it will make a man out of you

http://www.naturesplatform.com/images/sitting%20vs%20squatting.gif

soundtrack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64)

[V.O.R.]

Lol Bawang is a test tube bebee!!!!

[Jian]

other responses i never got to... although it looks like the tangent has taken off completely by now.


i think the answer will vary depending on who you pose the
Women do indeed have their place within the martial arts world. There have always been females interested in martial arts. Granted the vast majority of practitioners have been and currently are men, you do see a rising amount of women becoming interested in various forms of martial arts. I can share with you one aspect of insight our female counterparts can give us men; When a woman is practicing skill along side men who generally will outweight and out muscle her, she will be required to fall back on proper technique more than men will. And even as such, many times men will 'cheat' when working with a woman, because we can. There is a certain degree of refinement you see in women that is the product of this, often times required, element of training to succeed against a male counterpart in a competative training environment.

lucas, i have a shifu in praying mantis style that told me about this subtlety that women have. i do think as the climate for females changes and more women participate, we'll begin to see even more awesome female martial artists (and they'll be less seen as outliers). thanks for your comment!



I really believe that women have higher potential in martial arts than men, but they need to be trained differently.

Women have an easier time ditching the ego, but a harder time with contact.

i'm glad you see this "higher potential"... even though you've completely digressed by now.



from a "traditional" Chinese Martial Arts perspective, you should all be at home making babies...(the whole female equality thing comes from the Commies, sorry to say...) plus, re my response to bawang bout traditional...

finally,
"traditional chinese values and culture" is used by some folks to explain the role of women in the past and how men (generally speaking) are the ancestors of traditional chinese martial arts. really, you only have ownership, under traditional values, if you were chinese and in the elite class. it was only fairly recently when white folks and common people were invited.

so, if you're going to talk about how women traditionally would be making babies and not doing martial arts, from a "traditional" CMA perspective, all non-chinese and non-elite class folks are also not invited... i think this would mean the vast majority of us.

[bawang]

from a "traditional" CMA perspective, all non-chinese and non-elite class folks are also not invited... i think this would mean the vast majority of us.

it was mandatory for chinese farmers to practice martial arts

you got us chinese people confused with them samurais


it was only fairly recently when white folks and common people were invited.


white people were invited to kung fu like the natives invited you to america

[Razaunida]

It doesn't matter, if people's minds are blocked you can show them diamonds and they think that is sand.

You show many whites American how things work and they either say, "no its about Atlantis and Mayas or they say, "Its savage bs" Cultural conditioning can get in the way of knowledge for everyone..

I saw a lady cure some serious diseases with chicken blood and a black egg. I don't know what the hell she did, but it worked. I still think it can't be true, but another part says, "hey stupid you saw it with your own eyes." I'm no different. This lady has diamonds and I'm unsure if its sand.

Did a European way of thinking free me or make me blind?

[bawang]

in traditional chinese training the teacher brutally beats his students. thats why women dont train kung fu

in the ancient chinese army if you lose in sparring too much you are tied up and whipped then expelled. how the hell can you expect women to train that?

general qijiguang wrote that his soldiers were so eager to cut the heads off of the fallen enemy he had to discipline them and assign specific people for head cutting. you think women can survive that world?

[Jian]

it was mandatory for chinese farmers to practice martial arts

you got us chinese people confused with them samurais



white people were invited to kung fu like the natives invited you to america

ok, so the problem with broad terminology like "traditional chinese martial arts" is in making any general statement with sweeping generalizations there will always be a wide variety of histories that is not included... i made the mistake myself. i'll hear you that there are grassroots arts and those that emerged from the common folk (just like the capoeristas who practiced secretly while slaves). thanks for sharing that piece of history.

in that case, then "traditional chinese martial arts" broadly speaking can't be spoken of to exclude women to the home... who can really speak to true history. i don't think men, as a whole, own traditional chinese martial arts any more than women or any other group. i happen to be chinese myself actually... there is a part of me that is likes to see chinese sifu's (male and female) leading the art of our ancestors. some folks from other groups do it justice. anyway, it's complicated.

i'm no historian, but my main point is that there was some exclusivity to some of the chinese martial arts in the past (shaolin KF) and that it has been more accessible to the broader public than in the past.

[Jian]

in traditional chinese training the teacher brutally beats his students. thats why women dont train kung fu

in the ancient chinese army if you lose in sparring too much you are tied up and whipped then expelled. how the hell can you expect women to train that?

general qijiguang wrote that his soldiers were so eager to cut the heads off of the fallen enemy he had to discipline them and assign specific people for head cutting. you think women can survive that world?

one of the reasons some brutal training strategies were modified and rules were made to make competitions safer is b/c people who were training were simply getting dis-abled and killed.

bawang, would YOU or many of the guys you train with be willing to go through that kind of training today? if you say yes, then hats off to you, you are truly a badass. if not, then does this mean you are not a real manly man?

i don't think cutting off heads is a tradition we want to hold onto, do you?

my guess is that many men in the "modern world" of today would not train in chinese KF either if this were still the case. it's a new generation as my shifu would say.... on a broader scale, most people (including men) don't train to the same extent as they used to like the ancient times. so the concern among traditional chinese martial artists, at least from what i've read, is that the quality of our art is diminishing.. most of us have day jobs and simply don't have the time either. so, you'll have sifu's like dr. yang jwing-ming who creates a camp of disciples, a 10 year program, with the intent of training like they did in the ancient times... but it will never match the brutality of the training of the past.

[bawang]

.

i'm no historian

then i will enlighten you.

do you know the punishment for talking outloud while marching? beheading. . failure to salute battalion elder leads to behedaing.

misplacing gunpowder for mountain piercing rifle, multi rifle and dutch rifle is beheading.

if the squad elder dies in battle the entire squad is beheaded. if the battalion elder dies in battle every squad elder is beheaded.

if you hesitating an order for more than a few seconds the squad elder must cut off your ear. after the battle anyone with missing ears is to be beheaded.

you think women can survive in that world?

[Razaunida]

Yes they can.

Sun Zi proved it.

Of course he killed one of them to make his point.

[bawang]

bawang, would YOU or many of the guys you train with be willing to go through that kind of training today? does this make you any less of a martial artist? hmm.

my guess is that many men in the "modern world" of today would not train in chinese KF either if this were still the case. it's a new generation as my shifu would say.... on a broader scale, most people (including men) don't train to the same extent as they used to like the ancient times. so the concern among traditional chinese martial artists, at least from what i've read, is that the quality of our art is diminishing.. most of us have day jobs and simply don't have the time either. so, you'll have sifu's like dr. yang jwing-ming who creates a camp of disciples, a 10 year program, with the intent of training like they did in the ancient times... but it will never match the brutality of the training of the past.

im sorry to inform your pasty white ass but yes, traditional teachers beat their students all the time in china.

you can often hear shaolin tourists complain of "child abuse" when they visit near denfeng.

yang jwing ming doesnt do it because hes a conman, and even if he did it his students would sue him to kingdom come.

[bawang]

this is modern times and you can do whatever you want. but dont push your moral decay and cultural void onto old world cultures.

chinese martial art is a contest of manliness

[Jian]

im sorry to inform your pasty white ass but yes, traditional teachers beat their students all the time in china.

you can often hear shaolin tourists complain of "child abuse" when they visit near denfeng.

yang jwing ming doesnt do it because hes a conman, and even if he did it his students would sue him to kingdom come.

again, u keep talking about whether "women" can survive that. and my question is would YOU survive that.

[bawang]

yes i would. my teacher beat me and thats the way its suppsoed to be done. it toughens you up

my iranian friend did zurkaneh, his sufi teacher beat him. my indian friend did pahlawani and his guru also beat him. its a way of life for MEN.

[Jian]

this is modern times and you can do whatever you want. but dont push your moral decay and cultural void onto old world cultures.

chinese martial art is a contest of manliness

hey, i'm not here to convince you to change your mind, nor anyone who doesn't see the value of women in martial arts. it's ur choice who you choose to train with.

as for pushing my "moral decay" and "cultural void", i don't think you get to define what is moral and cultural when it comes to chinese culture.. and you certainly don't get to define it from someone like me who who comes from that culture.

whether you like it or not, the general trend in this country is more women are participating in chinese martial arts than in the past, that number is growing, and there aint nothing you, bawang, can do about it, dude.

[bawang]

as for pushing my "moral decay" and "cultural void", i don't think you get to define what is moral and cultural when it comes to chinese culture.. and you certainly don't get to define it from someone like me who who comes from that culture.


you are chilese? where you from?



whether you like it or not, the general trend in this country is more women are participating in chinese martial arts than in the past, that number is growing, and there aint nothing you, bawang, can do about it, dude.

i dont know if you noticed but kung fu is a joke in the entire world, its been dead for decades

[Jian]

you are chilese? where you from?



i dont know if you noticed but kung fu is a joke in the entire world, its been dead for decades

i'm from taipei.

[Razaunida]

Jian is not Chinese. Period.

Doesn't think like a Chinese man and maybe is a she and her family came from guangzhou a hundred years ago.

香蕉人。

[bawang]

i'm from taipei.

this is the reason i get to decide what is chinese culture, what is chinese martial art, and you dont.


i am from the hometown of northern shaolin teacher guruzhang. i am from the countryside. you are a uppity city chinese from taiwan, and its debatable that you are even chinese at all.


i know my provinces sanda champion and my provinces ex wushu chairman. you know yang jwing ming.

[Razaunida]

this is the reason i get to decide what is chinese culture, what is chinese martial art, and you dont.


I am from the hometown of northern shaolin teacher guruzhang. I am from the countryside. You are a uppity city chinese from taiwan.

我真的不相信你是华人。 你的想法像美国同性恋的想法。 肯定不是男人。

[bawang]

whether you like it or not, the general trend in this country is more women are participating in chinese martial arts than in the past, that number is growing, and there aint nothing you, bawang, can do about it, dude.

im sorry to tell you but tradition is very much alive. there are people that still wouldnt teach people outside their province, their town even. theres places where its more important to train martial arts than to read.

white lotus is alive, plum flower is alive, all the old trappings and superstitions are alive. you are not continuing their legacy, they are not your ancestors . they have nothing to do with you. you are not even part of their world.

[Razaunida]

more women are doing wushu. And Taiwanese men count as women.

Performance beauty contests are not manly they are geh and disgraceful.


What district are you from in Taipei? I have family in Taipei and TaiZhong. I dont' believe you are really Chinese at all, I believe that you majored in sociology and wymins studies at berkley where you joined the wushu prancing club.

[Jian]

this is the reason i get to decide what is chinese culture, what is chinese martial art, and you dont.


i am from the hometown of northern shaolin teacher guruzhang. i am from the countryside. you are a uppity city chinese from taiwan, and its debatable that you are even chinese at all.


i know my provinces sanda champion and my provinces ex wushu chairman. you know yang jwing ming.

nah, i'd actually rather argue that no one person gets to decide. ultimately it doesn't matter what you as an individual, bawang, thinks no matter how authentically chinese you claim to be. it is clear who you want to work with and who you want to exclude, and on my end.. there are plenty of folks who will build community with me. you sound like you have a lot of anger issues and seem to enjoy instigating on these forums and being antagonistic. it's a reflection of who you are as a human being. enjoy your life :).

[bawang]

nah, i'd actually rather argue that no one person gets to decide. ultimately it doesn't matter what you as an individual, bawang, thinks no matter how authentically chinese you claim to be. it is clear who you want to work with and who you want to exclude, and on my end.. there are plenty of folks who will build community with me. you sound like you have a lot of anger issues and seem to enjoy instigating on these forums and being antagonistic. it's a reflection of who you are as a human being. enjoy your life :).

im speaking to you honestly as a man speaks to another man.

[Razaunida]

You are not speaking to a man.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUsixfMLMUM&feature=related

if a woman is willing to receive training like this she can train whatever she wants

[Razaunida]

Yes training must be severe to be useful. Not like reiki

[Jian]

Bawangs real mom traditionally had him stand on his head in Elephant dung which would explain why he's so fully of sh1t

hey, it's fine, hskwarrior, thanks for the support, but it's fine. i think bawang and raz's true values have come out.

i only came to the forum to gather opinions and i'd rather hear the raw and real opinion from folks than the politically correct stuff i get in person. and yes, raz, i read baby chinese and don't have to convince some guy on the internet that i'm chinese and don't care to get into a discussion defining "american values".

that being said, i think i've gathered enough info.

[goju]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUsixfMLMUM&feature=related

if a woman is willing to receive training like this she can train whatever she wants

Whats manly about it? If that guy slapped him back he likely would **** himself

[Razaunida]

you must be one of those angry gay guys that hates the world cause you are not as FIERCE as you wish to be.

What are you talking about?

[Razaunida]

I am talking about the martial arts.

[bawang]

jian, if you couldnt even handle a verbal argument with a man, how can you spar or train with a man.

[Razaunida]

She can't.


Which is what every man reads when he sees a feminist going on and on with some hysterical tirade. We think, "She can't" Not that women can't...just that woman is an incapable.

blah blah blah patriarchy

Translation: I suck...I can't...I'll blame half the world.

[bawang]

my name steve. steve johnson.

[Jian]

more interesting discussions going on in other forum threads. i'll check back again later for responses though, but somehow i think this thread is dead. know when to redirect attention :rolleyes:

[Razaunida]

台湾人看不懂汉字。 什么可能？

[Jian]

台湾人看不懂汉字。 什么可能？

ok since you just wrote a very interesting thread on rape prevention, albeit dark, i'll entertain you for a sec. yes taiwanese people can understand chinese. there.

it's a beautiful language.

[Razaunida]

你才是。 你是功夫掌门但是你却不懂中文。

[Razaunida]

ok since you just wrote a very interesting thread on rape prevention, albeit dark, i'll entertain you for a sec. yes taiwanese people can understand chinese. there.

it's a beautiful language.



You can use google translate. Your have power.

[Jian]

You can use google translate. Your have power.

nope! sure didn't. i can read at an "advanced level" according to formal studies although i'd say it's more intermediate. verbal fluency is fine but do have to look up more advanced vocab words. so far everything you've written is fairly elementary so i can understand it fine without looking stuff up.

[Jian]

Jian,

I apologize this thread of your got sidetracked.

i know! but i think a lot of folks shared before that happened so that was helpful. that and i think my boredom keeps me coming back here. sheesh.

[Razaunida]

are you doing this for a paper in your women's studies class?

That won't help you get a job unless your employer is a lesbian at an NGO, but then they will ask you to work for free and you could save yourself time by just getting a lesbian tattoo on your neck.

[Jian]

bumping original post..

hi folks,

the times are changing and as we've seen at the recent tiger claw
tournament in san jose.. a strong presence of female martial artists. i also have a question about how supportive this space is for gay/lesbian folks.

two questions:
1. what do you think is the role of female martial artists in traditional
chinese martial arts?

2. is this a community open to gay/lesbian martial artists?

various opinions i've heard and inferred through observation:

- women are welcome but really it's the men that authentically carry on the lineage of our ancestors
- female martial artists are appreciated because they are feminine and sexy
- women are warriors just like men- take them seriously and promote them if they qualify
- ooh, lesbians with swords. hot.
- gay is fine as long as they stay away from me.
- wish we had more female participants
- who cares about gender and sexual orientation. this is a new era and as long as they care about the art that's all that matters.

any thoughts?

thanks,
jian

[taai gihk yahn]

Jian,

I apologize this thread of your got sidetracked.
Frank is, at bottom, a gentleman!


i know! but i think a lot of folks shared before that happened so that was helpful. that and i think my boredom keeps me coming back here. sheesh.
this is what makes this forum very Taoist - no good thread will go un-sidetracked; and the neat thing is, to make it all ok, all you have to do is...

STEP!

[SPJ]

bumping original post..


two questions:
1. what do you think is the role of female martial artists in traditional
chinese martial arts?

2. is this a community open to gay/lesbian martial artists?


any thoughts?

thanks,
jian

1. yes, female instructor may teach kids class and female class.

such as female teaches female for bjj and mma

guys tumble with guys etc

2. none of our business.

:)

[ShortBridge]

Jian,

What about where you train? What has been your observation/experience on these issues?

[SPJ]

in history, there were also female generals.

such as hua mu lan.

and grand mother grand marshall mu gui yin of song dynasty.

--

something to think about.

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh6Wiq3ubyQ&feature=related

female generals of yang family.

etc etc.

:)

[SPJ]

for people that do not know pe king opera.

there is a horse whip, representing you are riding a horse.

there is a short spear, representing you are using a long spear.

the command flags are on your back.

each flag representing an army.

you have the command flag, you may give order to that army.

etc etc.

:)

[SPJ]

my point is that this is not new.

1. there are female fighters before.

2. there are gay people ever since there are people.

so what is new?

:D

[YouKnowWho]

I have to admit that without a female training partner, I would never have interest in ground game.

[Razaunida]

You are a rapist

[Jian]

1. yes, female instructor may teach kids class and female class.

such as female teaches female for bjj and mma

guys tumble with guys etc

2. none of our business.

:)

cool, thanks for sharing.


Jian,

What about where you train? What has been your observation/experience on these issues?

in my experience, shifus and students don't make any issue out of gay/lesbian and don't talk about it. but i do observe among TCMA folks some gayphobic teasing, most of which is light and schoolyard stuff that boys may do. also one of the ways folks are dissed is by calling them sissy or basically any other word that represents femaleness in a negative way. calling someone "gay" also to mean "weak". i have observed this on the forums here, as well.

what i find ironic (particularly if they are asian men doing this), is that in the U.S. media asian men are not portrayed well and in fact feminized (they are portrayed as weak, feminine, nerdy, and have small *feet*.. except in kung fu movies.. and yet still, the predominant stereotype is not positive). they don't realize that their way of degrading others is actually also the very same language in mainstream U.S. which put asian men in a subservient or "feminized" position. being asian myself, i find the language problematic, but i get used to it.

most don't really get into the games and just focus on training. i think the primary focus is on transmitting our beautiful art and culture and during these moments of training gender and everything else disappears. it's just the martial arts.

i have had both excellent male and female instructors. if someone is detail oriented and can break down and explain things well, i thk they are qualified whatever the gender. in my exp, most schools in TCMA are majority male with a few females in the class.

[Jian]

Frank is, at bottom, a gentleman!


this is what makes this forum very Taoist - no good thread will go un-sidetracked; and the neat thing is, to make it all ok, all you have to do is...

STEP!

yeah, we decide where we put our energy. our intention feeds the direction

[Jian]

in history, there were also female generals.

such as hua mu lan.

and grand mother grand marshall mu gui yin of song dynasty.

--

something to think about.

:cool:

very true. tx for bringing in historical context

[bawang]

what i find ironic (particularly if they are asian men doing this), is that in the U.S. media asian men are not portrayed well and in fact feminized (they are portrayed as weak, feminine, nerdy, and have small *feet*.. except in kung fu movies.. and yet still, the predominant stereotype is not positive). they don't realize that their way of degrading others is actually also the very same language in mainstream U.S. which put asian men in a subservient or "feminized" position. being asian myself, i find the language problematic, but i get used to it.


and instead of fighting the stereotype you dance in silk pajamas

[Jian]

and instead of fighting the stereotype you dance in silk pajamas

not gonna bicker with you, bawang :). we're on the same team.

[bawang]

i am fighting against asian stereotype. i bicep curl over 25 pounds, and my penus 7 cm long

[Razaunida]

She is fighting an Chinese stereotype...by thinking like a white soc major from the 80s.



Hey everybody...love love, equality love....men and women are all the same. Every race has equal pros and cons...equal equal equal.

That all sounds good...until the test scores come out, and kids complete playing basketball...and you get out into the world and see how things really are.

Nature does not care for your ideals or how they blind you scientifically or academically. Nature just is.. Adapt or perish.

[Jian]

i am fighting against asian stereotype. i bicep curl over 25 pounds, and my penus 7 cm long

bawang, it's an interesting way to fight the stereotype, by choosing to highlight some hyper masculine standard to define masculinity... but i don't think it's necessary. for example, just b/c it's cool by some standards to be a big buff football player doesn't mean we asians have to do the same. chinese martial arts is both masculine/feminine, graceful, poetic and beautiful.. the chinese language as well. kick ass with grace. i think asian martial artists can be just as masculine by being their fit selves with normal body sizes.. just think in the history the leaders and fighters in chinese history.. do they really have to be tall and big bulky wrestler types to be masculine?

i think actually east asian masculinity would appear more androgynous in some circles, and i think that is awesome. we don't have to conform.

have you ever seen those short asian guys that make up for a lack of height by working out obsessively in the gym?they'll never be able to compete and bench press more and i think it's ridiculous, in my opinion. then they walk around acting all brutish and stuff. not impressive. when i think of masculine i think of kazushi sakuraba.. super modest and dignified.. he aint large (middleweight) compared to his opponents but fights with smarts and can use his intelligence to win over guys heavier than him. i'm sure there are other examples. i prefer that type of masculinity.. not beefcake, dumb, and brutish... get what i'm saying?

[omarthefish]

台湾人看不懂汉字。 什么可能？
To which Jian responded:

ok since you just wrote a very interesting thread on rape prevention, albeit dark, i'll entertain you for a sec. yes taiwanese people can understand chinese. there.

Taiwanese can but I'm not sure about Razaunida. . .

Raza is a Latino who studied Chinese? I mean, his Chinese is decent but it still reads like it was written by a westerner. Handle mean "one race" or something like that so I'm going with American born Mexican who's Chinese on the inside, a Chinese tea-egg, brown on the outside and yellow in the middle.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/food/121492068_231n.jpg

[Jian]

To which Jian responded:

Taiwanese can but I'm not sure about Razaunida. . .

Raza is a Latino who studied Chinese? I mean, his Chinese is decent but it still reads like it was written by a westerner. Handle mean "one race" or something like that so I'm going with American born Mexican who's Chinese on the inside, a Chinese tea-egg, brown on the outside and yellow in the middle.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/food/121492068_231n.jpg

thanks for confirming. living in the U.S. and based on my exposure too... most native speakers of chinese i know, or those immigrate from chinese speaking countries later in life don't go around bragging that they know chinese.. to them it's just normal. it's easy to tell when one's level of chinese is "elementary".

just a general comment about trolling and how i chose to handle it..

a troll can be someone who got banned previously, a completely new member, a current established member who wants to take more risks through an alias.. it can be anyone and any made up identity.

but anyway, once i've determined that someone's main purpose for posting is to make personal attacks and not contribute usefully to a discussion, i chose to ignore it. don't even bother reading past their name. once we've established who is a troll, i think personal attacks towards them is then a waste of time. it's too easy to for them to create a new name and do the same thing over again under a new alias. giving a troll more attention is exactly what they want. that's probably all i need to say about that. thanks for posting.

[bawang]

chinese martial arts is both masculine/feminine, graceful, poetic and beautiful.. the chinese language as well.

the culture today constantly being presented and advertise as "chinese" is remnant of the parasitic merchant class. the military and farming cultures have always been hypermasculine.

[Jian]

reposting my last two comments...

regarding my own experience to my original post (the first one)...

in my experience, shifus and students don't make any issue out of gay/lesbian and don't talk about it. but i do observe among TCMA folks some gayphobic teasing, most of which is light and schoolyard stuff that boys may do. also one of the ways folks are dissed is by calling them sissy or basically any other word that represents femaleness in a negative way. calling someone "gay" also to mean "weak". i have observed this on the forums here, as well.

what i find ironic (particularly if they are asian men doing this), is that in the U.S. media asian men are not portrayed well and in fact feminized (they are portrayed as weak, feminine, nerdy, and have small *feet*.. except in kung fu movies.. and yet still, the predominant stereotype is not positive). they don't realize that their way of degrading others is actually also the very same language in mainstream U.S. which put asian men in a subservient or "feminized" position. being asian myself, i find the language problematic, but i get used to it.

most don't really get into the games and just focus on training. i think the primary focus is on transmitting our beautiful art and culture and during these moments of training gender and everything else disappears. it's just the martial arts.

i have had both excellent male and female instructors. if someone is detail oriented and can break down and explain things well, i thk they are qualified whatever the gender. in my exp, most schools in TCMA are majority male with a few females in the class.[/QUOTE]


about definitions of masculinity...


bawang, it's an interesting way to fight the stereotype, by choosing to highlight some hyper masculine standard to define masculinity... but i don't think it's necessary. for example, just b/c it's cool by some standards to be a big buff football player doesn't mean we asians have to do the same. chinese martial arts is both masculine/feminine, graceful, poetic and beautiful.. the chinese language as well. kick ass with grace. i think asian martial artists can be just as masculine by being their fit selves with normal body sizes.. just think in the history the leaders and fighters in chinese history.. do they really have to be tall and big bulky wrestler types to be masculine?

i think actually east asian masculinity would appear more androgynous in some circles, and i think that is awesome. we don't have to conform.

have you ever seen those short asian guys that make up for a lack of height by working out obsessively in the gym?they'll never be able to compete and bench press more and i think it's ridiculous, in my opinion. then they walk around acting all brutish and stuff. not impressive. when i think of masculine i think of kazushi sakuraba.. super modest and dignified.. he aint large (middleweight) compared to his opponents but fights with smarts and can use his intelligence to win over guys heavier than him. i'm sure there are other examples. i prefer that type of masculinity.. not beefcake, dumb, and brutish... get what i'm saying?

[SimonM]

bawang, it's an interesting way to fight the stereotype, by choosing to highlight some hyper masculine standard to define masculinity...

Jian, a word to the wise, Bawang is constantly, as they say in Britain, taking the ****. Take his words with a grain of salt (or asprin).

[Jian]

china has different subcultures. the dominant culture today is remnant of the parasitic merchant class. the military and farming cultures have always been hypermasculine.

true. the thing about using labels we're trying to deconstruct is that ultimately all labels are simply that.. limited definitions of something with perhaps some partial truth. and yet still, even if we take the hypermasculine stereotype in the east asian way and looking back into history.. east asian men were simply not that big brutish bulky types.. it's still different. my main point though is that masculinity can be redefined in the modern day and doesn't have to be able how much one can bench press or penus size...

[bawang]

chinese martial arts is both masculine/feminine, graceful, poetic and beautiful..

whats so feminine and beautiful about this style?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA4OTkyNjg=.html



do they really have to be tall and big bulky wrestler types to be masculine?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU_HKb74FAY

[Razaunida]

thanks for confirming. living in the U.S. and based on my exposure too... most native speakers of chinese i know, or those immigrate from chinese speaking countries later in life don't go around bragging that they know chinese.. to them it's just normal. it's easy to tell when one's level of chinese is "elementary".

just a general comment about trolling and how i chose to handle it..

a troll can be someone who got banned previously, a completely new member, a current established member who wants to take more risks through an alias.. it can be anyone and any made up identity.

but anyway, once i've determined that someone's main purpose for posting is to make personal attacks and not contribute usefully to a discussion, i chose to ignore it. don't even bother reading past their name. once we've established who is a troll, i think personal attacks towards them is then a waste of time. it's too easy to for them to create a new name and do the same thing over again under a new alias. giving a troll more attention is exactly what they want. that's probably all i need to say about that. thanks for posting.


What exactly have you contributed? BTW I never took a class of Chinese in my life. I see many ABC's who claim all sorts of Asian pride and can't say a word of Chinese. They don't think the culture. That is fine, they are American, but when the same people try to set themselves apart and try to represent themselves as Chinese I always feel like they are more Amy Tan. Good, but they often idealize the old country culture according to modern western norms. This is what is happening here.

[omarthefish]

thanks for confirming. living in the U.S. and based on my exposure too... most native speakers of chinese i know, or those immigrate from chinese speaking countries later in life don't go around bragging that they know chinese.. to them it's just normal. it's easy to tell when one's level of chinese is "elementary".

.

Actually, all I needed was this:

台湾人看不懂汉字。 什么可能？


My first hint was that his Chinese language posts were a little too easy for me to understand. As a non-native speaker of Chinese, I usually have to put a little effort into reading comments from native speakers when I brows actual Chinese language boards. His comments felt like the sort of thing I would write. So I ran a few of his Chinese posts past my wife (actual Chinese person) and the post shown above really jumped out. She yelled at me that I used to always make that mistake. I've grown out of it but it's really a classic foreigner grammatical error up there. It's not the kind of error a native speaker would make. Once she (my wife) pointed it out to me I was embarrassed not to have noticed it myself.

[dirtyrat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU_HKb74FAY

that vid on the Chinese stone lock was cool! :cool:

[Jimbo]

cool, thanks for sharing.



in my experience, shifus and students don't make any issue out of gay/lesbian and don't talk about it. but i do observe among TCMA folks some gayphobic teasing, most of which is light and schoolyard stuff that boys may do. also one of the ways folks are dissed is by calling them sissy or basically any other word that represents femaleness in a negative way. calling someone "gay" also to mean "weak". i have observed this on the forums here, as well.

what i find ironic (particularly if they are asian men doing this), is that in the U.S. media asian men are not portrayed well and in fact feminized (they are portrayed as weak, feminine, nerdy, and have small *feet*.. except in kung fu movies.. and yet still, the predominant stereotype is not positive). they don't realize that their way of degrading others is actually also the very same language in mainstream U.S. which put asian men in a subservient or "feminized" position. being asian myself, i find the language problematic, but i get used to it.

most don't really get into the games and just focus on training. i think the primary focus is on transmitting our beautiful art and culture and during these moments of training gender and everything else disappears. it's just the martial arts.

i have had both excellent male and female instructors. if someone is detail oriented and can break down and explain things well, i thk they are qualified whatever the gender. in my exp, most schools in TCMA are majority male with a few females in the class.

Hi, Jian.

A big part of the problem of the U.S. media's view of Asian men is that so many Asian men willingly help promote the weak, nerdy, subservient, "feminized" stereotype in American TV and film. If called on it, they often state that it's not true, or they reason that they must take what they can get in Hollywood. So the problem continues to perpetuate itself. Even the Asian MAist stereotype isn't an upgrade, since in American TV/movies, the Caucasian or black character will almost always be shown as 'better' if they face off against him. I'm Asian, but I realized a long time ago that you can only represent yourself. Regardless of what may be the general media image out there.

As to someone's preferences, IMO it shouldn't matter, and I've never seen an issue come up as to someone's sexuality in a MA environment. That is, except in one example many years ago, overseas, when one guy displayed very exaggerated feminine mannerisms, where he would grin in a creepy way and try to grab guys inappropriately. He didn't last too long in training. But every group has its bad examples. Otherwise it should be no one else's business.

IMO, sometimes women become better students than males, though it all depends on the individual and how interested/inclined they are toward the MA.

[Razaunida]

Its not the media.

All the nerds come over. They are good students. They guys from shop class don't. Lots of man's men in the mainland. They drink bai jiu and beat down wimps. In the US we only see the ****s. It is the same with white people. You don't see the manly men in ivy league schools, you see them building monster trucks and working construction or felling trees with their peni.

As a result many people think Chinese are all smart, not really true, but a social division.

If the only Mexicans you saw were the top scholars you would think the same of Latinos.

My uncle won a scholarship for South America for winning a math contest. He's really, really smart. Social skills...not so much. If the only Latinos you saw were like that, people who can't build a shelving unit in their home it would change your perception of everything.

[Jian]

Hi, Jian.

A big part of the problem of the U.S. media's view of Asian men is that so many Asian men willingly help promote the weak, nerdy, subservient, "feminized" stereotype in American TV and film. If called on it, they often state that it's not true, or they reason that they must take what they can get in Hollywood. So the problem continues to perpetuate itself. Even the Asian MAist stereotype isn't an upgrade, since in American TV/movies, the Caucasian or black character will almost always be shown as 'better' if they face off against him. I'm Asian, but I realized a long time ago that you can only represent yourself. Regardless of what may be the general media image out there.

As to someone's preferences, IMO it shouldn't matter, and I've never seen an issue come up as to someone's sexuality in a MA environment. That is, except in one example many years ago, overseas, when one guy displayed very exaggerated feminine mannerisms, where he would grin in a creepy way and try to grab guys inappropriately. He didn't last too long in training. But every group has its bad examples. Otherwise it should be no one else's business.

IMO, sometimes women become better students than males, though it all depends on the individual and how interested/inclined they are toward the MA.

the problem i think in american film is there are not enough opportunities for asian men to participate.. i think of all the films "airbender" etc, where they still pick white actors to play asian roles. in terms of mainstream film, the control is just not premdominately in our hands. i do think that in alternative film and media asian men can create their own images..

thanks for sharing about sexuality in MA environment... whether he's acting in an exaggerated girly way or not i think is irrelevant. grabbing dudes in class is creepy on its own.

i think women can become good students in MA. i also feel like a sifu in TCMA classes that is personally invested in supporting the female students is much needed.. in my experience those schools tend to be majority male which can be tough for some women esp if they're the only one.

[Razaunida]

the problem i think in american film is there are not enough opportunities for asian men to participate.. i think of all the films "airbender" etc, where they still pick white actors to play asian roles. in terms of mainstream film, the control is just not premdominately in our hands. i do think that in alternative film and media asian men can create their own images..

thanks for sharing about sexuality in MA environment... whether he's acting in an exaggerated girly way or not i think is irrelevant. grabbing dudes in class is creepy on its own.

i think women can become good students in MA. i also feel like a sifu in TCMA classes that is personally invested in supporting the female students is much needed.. in my experience those schools tend to be majority male which can be tough for some women esp if they're the only one.

American films do that? Asian films worship white people. So do advertisements.