Wing Chun and Meditation

[Andy]

If I'm not mistaken there are two major types of meditation. One is concentration - focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The other is mindfulness - tying to be aware of everything at once. I believe that it was mindfulness that Sun Lu Tang practiced.

I was wondering which type of meditation is traditional for WC? Does it come from the Ermei or Shaolin tradition?

I would also like to hear your thoughts on sitting as opposed to standing meditation. From what I've read of the aikido master Ueshiba, he seemed to do a lot of sitting meditation.

I think that meditation is something that many martial artists don't have the patience for.

Andy

[Graham H]

You're on the wrong forum mate. There must be a yoga forum out there somewhere. No meditation in ving tsun!

[Hendrik]

Since the core of SLT practice is in fact a " moving meditation" , one needs to enter the state with the two doors --- silence mind and loose body.


using Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit on opening the YJKYM for SLT



1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the spirit in the Equal Shoulder stance

5, 气聚丹田督脉降
Collect Qi in Dan Dien, handing the Du Medirian, while the spine is loosely discending.




the following are
Meditation basic which applied to decode the above kuit and aids practice ; for those who likes to know


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1105041&postcount=10

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1105667&postcount=30

[Graham H]

more twaddle!!!! so now there is meditation in WC???? SLT is moving meditation???? This forum gets worse I'm sure!!

GH

[Hendrik]

more twaddle!!!! so now there is meditation in WC???? SLT is moving meditation???? This forum gets worse I'm sure!!

GH

Zhan Zhuang is meditation. Doing SLT for 20 mins is meditation. Zhan Zhuang is "still meditation" Cin Kung and Doing SLT for 20 mins is "moving meditation" Dong Kung.

the western term meditation is not a precise term to communicate what is practiced in WCK china 1850.

Undeniable, Ancient WCK always has a Nei Gong part which deal with mind, body, breathing, Qi flow, power generation. Those are the technology embedded within the long SLT set or/ and the three sets.

So, if one want to understand the content of ancient WCK, why the sets are designed the way it is, and the training result of the set. one has no choice but to dig into the Chinese Nei Gong tradition ; and thus the study of "meditation" is un avoidable.


if the assumption is learning "application in fighting" is WCK as some thought in the modern day, then there is a big assumption in this class of thinking. The assumption is the handling of the body/mind/power generation.

But, those who design the WCK doesnt take this assumption because all of these are taken into consideration when the sets are design.

Thus, in the ancient, set training is called Lien Kung or training in kung fu. it is not san sau or application but a mind/body training. and that training result in Kung Fu.


So, how to drop the fear under pressure? how to handle the body structure at an impact? ... those are all within the realm of Nei Gong. and if one doesnt have the part of "meditation" to enter state training, then one doesnt have the switch state training. with able to quiet the mind, one will be able to drop fear. with able to hold on to a structure standing in Zhan Zhuang one will be able to handle/sustain a momentum impact.



it is my view that , one needs to know what is what and how the big picture sum up to know what is going on. Some might interested in it , and some might not. However, what is a fact within WCK in the past, no one can changed because it was as it was.

[Hendrik]

If I'm not mistaken there are two major types of meditation. One is concentration - focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The other is mindfulness - tying to be aware of everything at once. I believe that it was mindfulness that Sun Lu Tang practiced.

I was wondering which type of meditation is traditional for WC? Does it come from the Ermei or Shaolin tradition?

I would also like to hear your thoughts on sitting as opposed to standing meditation. From what I've read of the aikido master Ueshiba, he seemed to do a lot of sitting meditation.

I think that meditation is something that many martial artists don't have the patience for.

Andy



Different type of meditation has different goal.

In general,
standing meditation is for cultivate the body/mind unity, body structure. body structure is emphasis in standing. IE Zhan Zhuang, standing post.

sitting meditation is for cultivate the mind settling and Qi accumulation. mind goes deeper in silence in sitting. IE transcendantal meditation.

moving meditation is for cultivating the body/mind/qi in dynamic. body/mind dynamic coordination and Qi channeling is emphasis in moving. IE: Taiji real silk, SLT, Emei 12 Zhuang...ect

[Vajramusti]

the western term meditation is not a precise term to communicate what is practiced in WCK china 1850.

Undeniable, Ancient WCK always has a Nei Gong part which deal with mind, body, breathing, Qi flow, power generation. Those are the technology embedded within the long SLT set or/ and the three sets. ((hendrik))

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good statement Hendrik. But given the frequent flow in non- conversations, I don't expect everyone to understand that.

joy chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

This forum gets worse I'm sure!!

Only if you continue.

Here's a question for you: What is in your thoughts and what thoughts do you return to when you invariably are distracted when you practice not only SiuLimTao, but also ChumKiu and BilGee?

[trubblman]

I believe there is meditative aspects inherent in the chinese martial arts that come from the Temples. So it seems that without question there is meditation in VT. It is said that Yip Man took up to 1 hour to do VT. If that is correct then he was clearly meditating. Nowadays I dont think meditation is practiced for the most part. However, IMO, meditation is easy when doing VT forms; for starters, focus on the breathe and breathing from the abdomen.

[Vajramusti]

I believe there is meditative aspects inherent in the chinese martial arts that come from the Temples. So it seems that without question there is meditation in VT. It is said that Yip Man took up to 1 hour to do VT. If that is correct then he was clearly meditating. Nowadays I dont think meditation is practiced for the most part. However, IMO, meditation is easy when doing VT forms; for starters, focus on the breathe and breathing from the abdomen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different kinds of meditation and the concept(s) is/are often mistranslated.

joy chaudhuri

[trubblman]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different kinds of meditation and the concept(s) is/are often mistranslated.

joy chaudhuri

Absolutely. There are different methods of meditation. That's why I said for starters. IMO the easiest method of meditation for Westerners is breathing into the stomach and focusing on the breathe. There are other methods but I think that's the easiest. Science has shown that meditation affects the structure of the brain and the parasympathetic nervous system in a positive way.

[Graham H]

Only if you continue.

Ha! Well at keast we share a mutual opinion of each other!


Here's a question for you: What is in your thoughts and what thoughts do you return to when you invariably are distracted when you practice not only SiuLimTao, but also ChumKiu and BilGee?

I don't get distracted and what I'm thinking about varies from form to form. Whilst in essence all forms are part of a complete package in the beginning the focus is on the elbow and the development of certain ideas and strucuters for the Ving Tsun punch. In Chum Kiu I put those ideas into practice in order to develop the correct behaviour for Ving Tsun movement. My attention is spent correcting errors. The dummy further develops these ideas. In Bil Jee the focus in on minimizing potential danger and injuries should they occur in a fight. I think about perfecting my Ving Tsun. Simple thinking, intelligent fighting.

Take your yogafied WC and blow it out your a$$!! :p:D

GH

[Hendrik]

For anyone who is interested in the old ways of doing WCK.



Technically, according to the TCMA Nei Gong practice, there is no different between race and nationality. It is a human technology.




The following are some general basic for the practice.



A, lower abs breathing is evoked naturally,
meaning effortless and let it resonance without any intention. any using of effort to do deep breathing, prolong breathing, shortern breathing, or unnatural forcing is the wrong way.

most people cant do effortless lower abs without proper training and proper breathing structure.

breathing is the bridge between body and mind, thus one needs a proper body structure and a quiet mind to induce a proper deep breathing.

Lower abs breathing is a transformation and not a using to mind to control activity. any using of mind and effort to control is trouble will cause stagnation.

Thus, it is damaging if one control the breath to be a long as the movements....etc. anything doesnt come naturally is problem and must stop the practice immediately.

one time the movement according to the length of the natural breathing, one dont disturb the breathing is the way.


If Ip Man can do it for 1 hours, he might have done it for only 5 mins the first year of his practice. and 10 mins second years based on his body's transformation. That is the fact of all Neigong practice. Doing what the body cant do it naturally is not proper.





B, one might aware of one's breathing in still meditation.

however, focusing in breathing is not the natural way of practice when it comes to practicing the long SLT or the WCK's three sets.


passed down according to Yik Kam of the red boat era;
The full instruction on how to practice the long SLT set or the 3 sets is as the following 4 kuits.



1, 眼對手 Eyes track your hand
2, 手對心 Hand / movement is in sync with intention
3, 手從心發 Hand / movement begin from the intention
4, 一絲不苟 it has to be a clear and solid coordination


#3 is the famous WCK kuit ---- hand issue from heart.


Thus,
The way of WCK set "meditation" practice is ----
using the aware/attention/ tracking of mind body coordination to sync and flow with movement, while quiet down the mind.

This is the training process of how to achieve " come accept, goes return... using silence to lead action." quiet down the mind is silence.




C, Since this is not physical exercise or cardio exercise or sport training,

in any practice of Neigong including the sets of WCK, one must not feel strain or sweat alots/too much . that is the wrong way. one must not feel tired after the practice, one needs to feel relax and energetic and mindfull after the practice.

the feeling has to be relax, warm, and light weight. the increase plenty generation of saliva is a key to know one is doing it properly. if the mouth is dry the practice is wrong.

one also dont do this before one go to bed to prevent over energetic body mind which stay alert.


D, never do the sets in a windy place, Wind is like an arrow which can penetrate one's body, that cause damage and internal injury. only drink cool drink 30 mins after the practice, to prevent temperature shock and stagnation in the internal organs flow.



E, this is an excellent reference on the posture and breathing and fundamental needed for the three sets. it is simple and natural stuffs. the reasoning is complex but the practice is simple and brainless transformation. otherwise, one cant use it spontaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKI6mH3Ij8&feature=related




if you dont have a sifu to show you what is the Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit on opening the YJKYM for SLT means.


1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the spirit in the Equal Shoulder stance

5, 气聚丹田督脉降
Collect Qi in Dan Dien, handing the Du Medirian, while the spine is loosely discending.


The above youtube said it petty much. after you watch the clip carefully, re read the kuits and you know.

and there is no rooting but "levitate". if you do it "rooting" that become Hung gar or White Crane or other Southern art. then later, when you want to do fajing. your practice doesnt fit well and cant work well with the WCK three sets.

so the notion is to gradually condition the body properly accord to the characteristics of the style; the snake engine, the WCK way of fajing will come naturally when one practice the set.

So, again, no secret, all technology. it is simple brainless practice for transformation.


BTW. the utube's clip's is the basic of Goulin Qigong . Goulin Qigong is also Emei 12 Zhuang influence so its fundmental applied to WCK practice when it comes to internal kung or nei kung.

[lance]

If I'm not mistaken there are two major types of meditation. One is concentration - focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The other is mindfulness - tying to be aware of everything at once. I believe that it was mindfulness that Sun Lu Tang practiced.

I was wondering which type of meditation is traditional for WC? Does it come from the Ermei or Shaolin tradition?

I would also like to hear your thoughts on sitting as opposed to standing meditation. From what I've read of the aikido master Ueshiba, he seemed to do a lot of sitting meditation.

I think that meditation is something that many martial artists don't have the patience for.

Andy

Andy , read Hendriks topic post on wing Chun and Meditation , it ' s the exact method which I was going to share with you , until Hedrik post it already . Anyway , this method is emphasized by Sifu Augustine Fong and GM William Cheung . The only thing is that you need to practice it every day or whenever you have time very slowely like your doing tai chi . This excercise is what circulates the internal energy through your accupuncture meridian points in your body . Get GM Cheung ' s Chi Power book or his instructional DVDs . And Sifu Austine Fong in one of his DVD materials he conducts a seminar about wing chun in genral and he talks about the SLT form and how it benefits you with chi orovided that you practice the SLT set consistantly .

Ip Man used to practice this form for 1 hour a day , just to get the internal benefits .

[Tom Kagan]

Ha! Well at keast we share a mutual opinion of each other!



I don't get distracted and what I'm thinking about varies from form to form. Whilst in essence all forms are part of a complete package in the beginning the focus is on the elbow and the development of certain ideas and strucuters for the Ving Tsun punch. In Chum Kiu I put those ideas into practice in order to develop the correct behaviour for Ving Tsun movement. My attention is spent correcting errors. The dummy further develops these ideas. In Bil Jee the focus in on minimizing potential danger and injuries should they occur in a fight. I think about perfecting my Ving Tsun. Simple thinking, intelligent fighting.

Take your yogafied WC and blow it out your a$$!! :p:D

GH

Guess what? You are describing a form of meditation. Sucks to be you.

(Quick: call your mindfulness and guided imagery something else so you can maintain your illusion)

[Graham H]

Guess what? You are describing a form of meditation. Sucks to be you.

(Quick: call your mindfulness and guided imagery something else so you can maintain your illusion)

Am I really??? Maybe I will meditate on top of your head if I get to NY you muppet!!!

GH xxx

[GlennR]

Am I really??? Maybe I will meditate on top of your head if I get to NY you muppet!!!

GH xxx

Nice to see you embracing your inner self Graham......

[Graham H]

Nice to see you embracing your inner self Graham......

Thank you Glenn! ;):D

[Tom Kagan]

Am I really??? Maybe I will meditate on top of your head if I get to NY you muppet!!!

GH xxx

Gee, what a shocker! Losing an online argument causes you to puff out your chest.

The forms in the style are a solitary, inwardly focused activity. If you are not being mindful of what you are doing, then what are you doing? The Phillip Bayer robot dance? I hope you're smarter than that because I don't like to pity people.

[Graham H]

Gee, what a shocker! Losing an online argument causes you to puff out your chest.

The forms in the style are a solitary, inwardly focused activity. If you are not being mindful of what you are doing, then what are you doing? The Phillip Bayer robot dance? I hope you're smarter than that because I don't like to pity people.

Losing an online argument??? When did that happen?? :confused:

So you are saying that I am actually meditating when practicing my Ving Tsun?? Reflecting? contemplating? thinking about spiritual matters? I'd rather say I'm learning how to hit people very hard, very fast and with as little injury to my self as possible. You say tomato and I say tomarrrrrrrrrrto is it?? I don't think so! I don't agree with you and if you are pushing that sh!t on to people I feel sorry for them because it makes you a charlatan like the rest of those esoteric a""holes!;)

Chin up bro!

GH

[Tom Kagan]

Losing an online argument??? When did that happen?? :confused:

So you are saying that I am actually meditating when practicing my Ving Tsun?? Reflecting? contemplating? thinking about spiritual matters? I'd rather say I'm learning how to hit people very hard, very fast and with as little injury to my self as possible. You say tomato and I say tomarrrrrrrrrrto is it?? I don't think so! I don't agree with you and if you are pushing that sh!t on to people I feel sorry for them because it makes you a charlatan like the rest of those esoteric a""holes!;)

Chin up bro!

GH

Boy, you sure must get a lot of pleasure ranting against strawman.

You said "Ving Tsun". I said "forms". So, unless forms are all your Ving Tsun consists of, you fail yet again. Try to keep up next time because at least your rants will make logical sense.

[GlennR]

Am I really??? Maybe I will meditate on top of your head if I get to NY you muppet!!!

GH xxx



Actually Graham, theres something to the whole meditation thing i think

I did a lot of Yoga for about 4 years (bloody good for you AND bloody hard) and obviously meditation is involved in that. Actually, youd say the whole class you are meditating ,its more than just standing/sitting/stretching whatever.

Its constantly being aware of what your body is doing, all the very minor details, which i think relates really well to WC training. Especially in your mindset whilst doing the forms.
And it works in reverse as well.
My Yoga Teacher asked me straight away if i did some form of martial art or something similar as he said i was very "aware" of my body. I absolutely put that down to my WC.

So whilst im not a huge fan of sitting in a corner chanting for hours, i do acknowledge its the mindfullness that can be nurtured, which can translate to helping with your forms and ultimately your WC

[Tom Kagan]

Actually Graham, theres something to the whole meditation thing i think

I did a lot of Yoga for about 4 years (bloody good for you AND bloody hard) and obviously meditation is involved in that. Actually, youd say the whole class you are meditating ,its more than just standing/sitting/stretching whatever.

Its constantly being aware of what your body is doing, all the very minor details, which i think relates really well to WC training. Especially in your mindset whilst doing the forms.
And it works in reverse as well.
My Yoga Teacher asked me straight away if i did some form of martial art or something similar as he said i was very "aware" of my body. I absolutely put that down to my WC.

So whilst im not a huge fan of sitting in a corner chanting for hours, i do acknowledge its the mindfullness that can be nurtured, which can translate to helping with your forms and ultimately your WC

His whole "red jersey wearing, drunken soccer fan after his team loses who has come across a blue jersey wearing fan" act aside, a lot of people do tend to overthink it (*cough* *cough* Hendrik *cough* *cough*). That isn't exactly being mindul, either. I would not be surprised if Graham Cracker's frequent taking of an extreme and obstinate position is an attempt to be the devil's advocate against that. Unfortunately, it appears he has the handicap of being British not very funny.

[anerlich]

Inspiring to see all you spiritual masters bickering like a bunch of fishwives :p

[Graham H]

Actually Graham, theres something to the whole meditation thing i think

I did a lot of Yoga for about 4 years (bloody good for you AND bloody hard) and obviously meditation is involved in that. Actually, youd say the whole class you are meditating ,its more than just standing/sitting/stretching whatever.

Its constantly being aware of what your body is doing, all the very minor details, which i think relates really well to WC training. Especially in your mindset whilst doing the forms.
And it works in reverse as well.
My Yoga Teacher asked me straight away if i did some form of martial art or something similar as he said i was very "aware" of my body. I absolutely put that down to my WC.

So whilst im not a huge fan of sitting in a corner chanting for hours, i do acknowledge its the mindfullness that can be nurtured, which can translate to helping with your forms and ultimately your WC

I also did Yoga for some time and I did meditate. I still do meditate from time to time but that has nothing to with my forms or anything. They are two sperate things. If Tommy Ti!s wants to meditate whilst doing his WC then that's fine for him but not for me.

I have met too many people in Wing Chun with this mindset and they have all been useless fighters. They are only good bossing around their own students. The people who I have met who I consider to be good use Ving Tsun as I do. It's a skill in punching people. Not a martial art as such but a skill. All this nonsense of "sinking the chi into the dantien" and using SLT as some sort of meditation is just that.......nonsense!

Hari Christna

[Graham H]

Inspiring to see all you spiritual masters bickering like a bunch of fishwives :p

What else am I meant to do in my lunch break??? Bickering is good! ;):D

[anerlich]

What else am I meant to do in my lunch break??? Bickering is good!

Fair enough, I've done enough of that myself :p

[GlennR]

Inspiring to see all you spiritual masters bickering like a bunch of fishwives :p

Go stick it up your dantien! ;)

[anerlich]

Its constantly being aware of what your body is doing, all the very minor details, which i think relates really well to WC training.

Most of us have at least dabbled in this stuff.

An internal focus and mindfullness can be good for solo training.

For fighting or sparring, try that and you'll get your clock cleaned. Your focus needs to be braod and external.

[Tom Kagan]

Most of us have at least dabbled in this stuff.

An internal focus and mindfullness can be good for solo training.

For fighting or sparring, try that and you'll get your clock cleaned. Your focus needs to be braod and external.

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

[Graham H]

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Can't argue with that! ;)

Strawman

[Hendrik]

For those who is interested in ancient WCK :



Let's look into these in details?



The whole
1, "spiritual",
2, "dan tien" stuff?
3, More overthinking



1, spiritual?

is it spiritual as in religion?

Fact:

For those who learn and practice NeiGong, it is a practical mind and emotion handling training, conditioning, and transformation. nothing to do with religion or new age thinking or philosophy.



2, "dan tien" stuff ?

Fact:

for those who can sink Qi to Dan tien, be able to sink Qi to Dan tien means one increase one's breathing intake 2 to 5 times.



3, overthinking ?

Fact:

Those who could do the above #1 and #2 actually dont think.

it is just a natural phenomenon of Letting Go and Letting the body -mind handle itself.

For, there is no way one could think to make one's breathing intake to increase 4 X or more. also, there is no way one could drop the thinking via thinking.

Speculating what is beyond one's mind capable to know or handle, is the true overthinking. and that is not the case in the ancient training.

[chusauli]

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Tom,

You bring up many good points.

As for "blue print", I would say the Chinese culture looks at it more like a memory aid - and the culture is permeated with tools like that. For example, we recite the San Zi Jing to teach Confucianism, and there is a San Zi Jing for medicine. There are poems galore in Chinese for forms, herbs, acupuncture, etc. Forms are a mnemonic device to help you remember things you would have ordinarily forgotten, as there are too many details for a left brain thinking mind to hold at one time. By melding it with the right brain artistic mind, the brain has a chance to store and load it into the body. There is the technical, and there is the art. So the SNT set helps you attempt to balance these out.

Personally, for me, for a long time, it was harder for me to remember Gu Lao WCK, as it had many short sequences, but I could easily remember 3 sets, Jong set and pole and knives sets. But in application, it was easier to express Gu Lao WCK, as it was closer to combat than forms based WCK.

[Hendrik]

Robert,

Excellent points!

We need to be careful so that we dont throw the water and baby.


For me, in the mean time, I rather keep everything as much as possible. it is better that way then censor it now and find out we throw the baby out later.


The mind-emotion handling, the breathing, the structure, the momentum transportation, the power generation engine, the applications.....etc. lots of stuffs to look into. the more one examine the details the more one could see the art clearly without over simplify or over complicated WCK. over simplify or over complicated will not work properly.

[GlennR]

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Im with you on the overthinking bit Tom. Just wants to overcomplicate things for the sake of it.

Ok , forms are for what then?

[WC1277]

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

I agree with you to a degree but there is quite a bit in the forms that you'll miss if you don't create a decent drill to compensate for it.

For instance, in SLT a very overlooked detail is the equal tension between each arm so that you develop "hitting/parrying with both sides" even when using just one arm, hence proper structure. Most people when doing the first part of the form just hold their arm in a relaxed state on their side while their other arm is doing tan/fook. You accomplish nothing doing it this way other than knowing what your centerline is, which a 5 year old could learn in 5 min. The correct way is to pull that neutral arm back an equal amount of tension that you're pushing out with your active hand. I don't mean force it or muscle, I mean just equal tension. This will create proper structure and doing SLT everyday this way will make it second nature, which is what you want, right?

Then there's Chum Kiu. This one you could make mostly drills to compensate for but really, why, when it's already all there for you? This one I don't think needs to be done everyday but you should do it as much as possible at least until you perfect your footwork which is really what this form is all about. Well, let me restate that, footwork with a unified body structure. Yes, a lot of it will come naturally eventually, but practicing can help speed up the process.

Biu Jee - probably the least important form of the 3 empty hands IMO. I found that the majority of the stuff found in this one came naturally to me over time during Chi Sao, plus some parts of it are just silly.

Wooden Dummy - I think this one is priceless IMO. If done right and you're entire focus is on perfecting right distancing then this one you should not go without. Too many people cross hands and get hits in, but if you really look at those hits they're useless, why, because of lack of proper distancing.

Two weapon forms - Cool but definitely don't need to do these ones other than once in a blue moon.

So in the end, yeah, in a lot of respects they're useless, but there's certain parts of them that are incredibly important to do over and over and over again. IMO SLT and Wooden Dummy are most important and one should never go without for too long. Chum Kiu is important too but can be learned entirely through drills with a competent teacher.

But at the end of the day, unless you know why you're doing what you're doing or how to do it properly, then, yes, all forms would be useless then

[theo]

For anyone who is interested in the old ways of doing WCK.



Technically, according to the TCMA Nei Gong practice, there is no different between race and nationality. It is a human technology.




The following are some general basic for the practice.



A, lower abs breathing is evoked naturally,
meaning effortless and let it resonance without any intention. any using of effort to do deep breathing, prolong breathing, shortern breathing, or unnatural forcing is the wrong way.

most people cant do effortless lower abs without proper training and proper breathing structure.

breathing is the bridge between body and mind, thus one needs a proper body structure and a quiet mind to induce a proper deep breathing.

Lower abs breathing is a transformation and not a using to mind to control activity. any using of mind and effort to control is trouble will cause stagnation.

Thus, it is damaging if one control the breath to be a long as the movements....etc. anything doesnt come naturally is problem and must stop the practice immediately.

one time the movement according to the length of the natural breathing, one dont disturb the breathing is the way.


If Ip Man can do it for 1 hours, he might have done it for only 5 mins the first year of his practice. and 10 mins second years based on his body's transformation. That is the fact of all Neigong practice. Doing what the body cant do it naturally is not proper.





B, one might aware of one's breathing in still meditation.

however, focusing in breathing is not the natural way of practice when it comes to practicing the long SLT or the WCK's three sets.


passed down according to Yik Kam of the red boat era;
The full instruction on how to practice the long SLT set or the 3 sets is as the following 4 kuits.



1, 眼對手 Eyes track your hand
2, 手對心 Hand / movement is in sync with intention
3, 手從心發 Hand / movement begin from the intention
4, 一絲不苟 it has to be a clear and solid coordination


#3 is the famous WCK kuit ---- hand issue from heart.


Thus,
The way of WCK set "meditation" practice is ----
using the aware/attention/ tracking of mind body coordination to sync and flow with movement, while quiet down the mind.

This is the training process of how to achieve " come accept, goes return... using silence to lead action." quiet down the mind is silence.




C, Since this is not physical exercise or cardio exercise or sport training,

in any practice of Neigong including the sets of WCK, one must not feel strain or sweat alots/too much . that is the wrong way. one must not feel tired after the practice, one needs to feel relax and energetic and mindfull after the practice.

the feeling has to be relax, warm, and light weight. the increase plenty generation of saliva is a key to know one is doing it properly. if the mouth is dry the practice is wrong.

one also dont do this before one go to bed to prevent over energetic body mind which stay alert.


D, never do the sets in a windy place, Wind is like an arrow which can penetrate one's body, that cause damage and internal injury. only drink cool drink 30 mins after the practice, to prevent temperature shock and stagnation in the internal organs flow.



E, this is an excellent reference on the posture and breathing and fundamental needed for the three sets. it is simple and natural stuffs. the reasoning is complex but the practice is simple and brainless transformation. otherwise, one cant use it spontaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKI6mH3Ij8&feature=related




if you dont have a sifu to show you what is the Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit on opening the YJKYM for SLT means.


1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the spirit in the Equal Shoulder stance

5, 气聚丹田督脉降
Collect Qi in Dan Dien, handing the Du Medirian, while the spine is loosely discending.


The above youtube said it petty much. after you watch the clip carefully, re read the kuits and you know.

and there is no rooting but "levitate". if you do it "rooting" that become Hung gar or White Crane or other Southern art. then later, when you want to do fajing. your practice doesnt fit well and cant work well with the WCK three sets.

so the notion is to gradually condition the body properly accord to the characteristics of the style; the snake engine, the WCK way of fajing will come naturally when one practice the set.

So, again, no secret, all technology. it is simple brainless practice for transformation.


BTW. the utube's clip's is the basic of Goulin Qigong . Goulin Qigong is also Emei 12 Zhuang influence so its fundmental applied to WCK practice when it comes to internal kung or nei kung.

great post hendrik! its a continual process, where we let things unfold naturally.

[Graham H]

I agree with you to a degree but there is quite a bit in the forms that you'll miss if you don't create a decent drill to compensate for it.

For instance, in SLT a very overlooked detail is the equal tension between each arm so that you develop "hitting/parrying with both sides" even when using just one arm, hence proper structure. Most people when doing the first part of the form just hold their arm in a relaxed state on their side while their other arm is doing tan/fook. You accomplish nothing doing it this way other than knowing what your centerline is, which a 5 year old could learn in 5 min. The correct way is to pull that neutral arm back an equal amount of tension that you're pushing out with your active hand. I don't mean force it or muscle, I mean just equal tension. This will create proper structure and doing SLT everyday this way will make it second nature, which is what you want, right?

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!



Then there's Chum Kiu. This one you could make mostly drills to compensate for but really, why, when it's already all there for you? This one I don't think needs to be done everyday but you should do it as much as possible at least until you perfect your footwork which is really what this form is all about. Well, let me restate that, footwork with a unified body structure. Yes, a lot of it will come naturally eventually, but practicing can help speed up the process.

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!


Biu Jee - probably the least important form of the 3 empty hands IMO. I found that the majority of the stuff found in this one came naturally to me over time during Chi Sao, plus some parts of it are just silly.

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!


Wooden Dummy - I think this one is priceless IMO. If done right and you're entire focus is on perfecting right distancing then this one you should not go without. Too many people cross hands and get hits in, but if you really look at those hits they're useless, why, because of lack of proper distancing.

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!


Two weapon forms - Cool but definitely don't need to do these ones other than once in a blue moon.

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!


So in the end, yeah, in a lot of respects they're useless, but there's certain parts of them that are incredibly important to do over and over and over again. IMO SLT and Wooden Dummy are most important and one should never go without for too long. Chum Kiu is important too but can be learned entirely through drills with a competent teacher.

But at the end of the day, unless you know why you're doing what you're doing or how to do it properly, then, yes, all forms would be useless then

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!

Best quote????................some things in Bil Jee are silly. :eek::eek::eek:


That has to be one of the worse posts on VT ever in the history of the universe!!!

GH

[k gledhill]

Hendrik can you post clips of some ancient vt ?
Gor sao ? Action....

[k gledhill]

At Robert,
The idea of short verse to help memorize is a great method for any subject. I recently watched a tv show on ecucational pitfalls of our current system. They had a bit on a teacher who used hip hop to reach her students math tables...she said it dramaticaly
Improved her students.

[Tom Kagan]

Im with you on the overthinking bit Tom. Just wants to overcomplicate things for the sake of it.

Ok , forms are for what then?

Question: Why did the chicken cross the road?
Response: Why does a chicken need to have a reason to do anything?


I agree with you to a degree but there is quite a bit in the forms that you'll miss if you don't create a decent drill to compensate for it.

For instance, in SLT a very overlooked detail is the equal tension between each arm so that you develop "hitting/parrying with both sides" even when using just one arm, hence proper structure. Most people when doing the first part of the form just hold their arm in a relaxed state on their side while their other arm is doing tan/fook. You accomplish nothing doing it this way other than knowing what your centerline is, which a 5 year old could learn in 5 min. The correct way is to pull that neutral arm back an equal amount of tension that you're pushing out with your active hand. I don't mean force it or muscle, I mean just equal tension. This will create proper structure and doing SLT everyday this way will make it second nature, which is what you want, right?

Then there's Chum Kiu. This one you could make mostly drills to compensate for but really, why, when it's already all there for you? This one I don't think needs to be done everyday but you should do it as much as possible at least until you perfect your footwork which is really what this form is all about. Well, let me restate that, footwork with a unified body structure. Yes, a lot of it will come naturally eventually, but practicing can help speed up the process.

Biu Jee - probably the least important form of the 3 empty hands IMO. I found that the majority of the stuff found in this one came naturally to me over time during Chi Sao, plus some parts of it are just silly.

Wooden Dummy - I think this one is priceless IMO. If done right and you're entire focus is on perfecting right distancing then this one you should not go without. Too many people cross hands and get hits in, but if you really look at those hits they're useless, why, because of lack of proper distancing.

Two weapon forms - Cool but definitely don't need to do these ones other than once in a blue moon.

So in the end, yeah, in a lot of respects they're useless, but there's certain parts of them that are incredibly important to do over and over and over again. IMO SLT and Wooden Dummy are most important and one should never go without for too long. Chum Kiu is important too but can be learned entirely through drills with a competent teacher.

But at the end of the day, unless you know why you're doing what you're doing or how to do it properly, then, yes, all forms would be useless then

*facepalm*

Sidestepping almost all of what you wrote, I'll spell out the one flaw in your premise: If you take a movement out from a form to apply it within a different context, you aren't practicing that form anymore.


2, "dan tien" stuff ?

Fact:

for those who can sink Qi to Dan tien, be able to sink Qi to Dan tien means one increase one's breathing intake 2 to 5 times.

Not only is there no objective way to measure the process of which you write, but so called experts on such subject matter cannot even agree on how to define it. As such, it is not anywhere near "fact". It is, at best, a form of a visualization aid rooted in not the style, but a cultural folklore.

But what is as close to fact as possible is that a majority of athletes use some form of meditation (no matter what the drunken soccer fan wishes to call it) to improve their performance. And, a significant body of research exists to support the notion that meditation has a positive effect on performance - even if its method of spurring such an indirect process is not yet understood. I would go so far as to say meditation is an intrinsic component to training an athletic endeavour to any high level.

[Graham H]

(no matter what the drunken soccer fan wishes to call it)

Pet names now eh?? Amazing stuff! A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

I should remember the differences in humour between the Brits and the Yanks!!! It can get lost in translation. One lot has a sense of humour and the other lot has a kinda cocoa cola, big mac, 12 sandwhiches at a time eating, holering, whoop whoop, downtown, holy guacamole batman, mud guts sense of humour! :D

GH

[Tom Kagan]

Pet names now eh?? Amazing stuff! A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

I should remember the differences in humour between the Brits and the Yanks!!! It can get lost in translation. One lot has a sense of humour and the other lot has a kinda cocoa cola, big mac, 12 sandwhiches at a time eating, holering, whoop whoop, downtown, holy guacamole batman, mud guts sense of humour! :D

GH

Americans don't have a sense of humour. Many do, however, have a sense of humor.

(I am probably one of the few Americans who understands that British conversation involves an inherent trolling methodology which demands a contradicting rebuttal to any position, and that it is impossible to actually have a conversation with one unless I respond in kind or a bit more.)

[LoneTiger108]

Two weapon forms - Cool but definitely don't need to do these ones other than once in a blue moon.

I've avoided this thread so far, but I found this post the most concerning :eek: being a weaponry enthusiast.

Both the knife work and pole drills within Wing Chun NEED to be studied continuously for a long period of time, both to have their specific natures drawbn into the body and for the experience of understanding the hand/weapon relationship.

To even suggest that these can be sidelined like you say here is just ridiculous. A Sifu would probably say that if a) he didn't know the sets or b) had no respect for our weaponry! Either way, avoid that particular Sifu and move on ;)


But at the end of the day, unless you know why you're doing what you're doing or how to do it properly, then, yes, all forms would be useless then

There it is.

Question is, how do you know you know? ;) And if you actually don't know, are the forms still useless?

[LoneTiger108]

A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

:D 'Ere!! Leave me out of your beer swilling hooligan banter

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1107394]Pet names now eh?? Amazing stuff! A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

I should remember the differences in humour between the Brits and the Yanks!!! It can get lost in translation. One lot has a sense of humour and the other lot has a kinda cocoa cola, big mac, 12 sandwhiches at a time eating, holering, whoop whoop, downtown, holy guacamole batman, mud guts sense of humour! :D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just experience and not an attempt at stereotyping::I am originally form India -born under British rule, lived In the UK briefly and have been an American longer than most folks on this list- humor?
Not much among the Brits I met in India or the UK(exceptions of course)- but yes some Brit humor in the media can be funny. American humor has grown on me much more and because of the diversity(ethnic, regional, cultural, international, linguistic) of America there are more varieties of humor..not just in the media but in everyday life.
Even in this forum the Aussies and the Americans are generally more humorous than the Brits.

joy

[trubblman]

......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!

That has to be one of the worse posts on VT ever in the history of the universe!!!

GH

Maybe your understanding of VT is different than his. Unless you have ever sparred or fought with this person, this conclusion is wholly without foundation.

[Tom Kagan]

Even in this forum the Aussies and the Americans are generally more humorous than the Brits.

While that may be true, what also appears to be true is that, of my sample of one, Indian born Americans (un-American Indians?) could stand to learn how to use the "
... " bbcode tags.

;)

[Graham H]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1107394]Pet names now eh?? Amazing stuff! A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

I should remember the differences in humour between the Brits and the Yanks!!! It can get lost in translation. One lot has a sense of humour and the other lot has a kinda cocoa cola, big mac, 12 sandwhiches at a time eating, holering, whoop whoop, downtown, holy guacamole batman, mud guts sense of humour! :D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just experience and not an attempt at stereotyping::I am originally form India -born under British rule, lived In the UK briefly and have been an American longer than most folks on this list- humor?
Not much among the Brits I met in India or the UK(exceptions of course)- but yes some Brit humor in the media can be funny. American humor has grown on me much more and because of the diversity(ethnic, regional, cultural, international, linguistic) of America there are more varieties of humor..not just in the media but in everyday life.
Even in this forum the Aussies and the Americans are generally more humorous than the Brits.

joy

Like Family Guy right?:D

[Hendrik]

Hendrik can you post clips of some ancient vt ?
Gor sao ? Action....

Check Koo Loo or YKS clips.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
2, "dan tien" stuff ?

Fact:

for those who can sink Qi to Dan tien, be able to sink Qi to Dan tien means one increase one's breathing intake 2 to 5 times.

Not only is there no objective way to measure the process of which you write, but so called experts on such subject matter cannot even agree on how to define it.

As such, it is not anywhere near "fact".

It is, at best, a form of a visualization aid rooted in not the style, but a cultural folklore.





Qi Sink to Dan dien is not a Visualization for anyone who is trained and could do it.
it is a body handling action.



The increasing of the breathing in take and related body influence of Lower abs breathing,
or Qi sink to Dan dien type of breathing ,
is a fact which could be measured objectively and studied in China and Japan.



5.36 is a good way to explain to the westerners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKI6mH3Ij8&feature=related

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1107394]Pet names now eh?? Amazing stuff! A little sterotypical don't you think? Assuming that all English geezers are beer swilling football hooligans then you would be............right!!! (apart from Spencer of course) ;)

I should remember the differences in humour between the Brits and the Yanks!!! It can get lost in translation. One lot has a sense of humour and the other lot has a kinda cocoa cola, big mac, 12 sandwhiches at a time eating, holering, whoop whoop, downtown, holy guacamole batman, mud guts sense of humour! :D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just experience and not an attempt at stereotyping::I am originally form India -born under British rule, lived In the UK briefly and have been an American longer than most folks on this list- humor?
Not much among the Brits I met in India or the UK(exceptions of course)- but yes some Brit humor in the media can be funny. American humor has grown on me much more and because of the diversity(ethnic, regional, cultural, international, linguistic) of America there are more varieties of humor..not just in the media but in everyday life.
Even in this forum the Aussies and the Americans are generally more humorous than the Brits.

joy

Joy just reminded me of that long list of Indian comedians, like,...er..and hmmm, errhhh...wait theres...errhhh ? I know Joy sad attempt at humo/ur , but at least its not snowing, pokety, poke,poke,poke :D

[k gledhill]

The increasing of the breathing in take and related body influence of Lower abs breathing or Qi sink to Dan dien type of breathing is a fact which could be measured and had been measured and studied in China and Japan.

Try running 5 miles a day for some cardio, SLT wont give your cardio a work out.

[Tom Kagan]

The increasing of the breathing in take and related body influence of Lower abs breathing,
or Qi sink to Dan dien type of breathing ,
is a fact which could be measured objectively and studied in China and Japan.


5.36 is a good way to explain to the westerners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKI6mH3Ij8&feature=related

It can be objectively proven that changes in breathing technique can increase breathing efficiency. But objectively proving the "Qi sink[s] to Dan Tien"? Only via shoddy research. As I said before: it is at best a visualization aid rooted in cultural folklore.


Check Koo Loo or YKS clips.


Out of curiosity, do you have objective evidence such branches more closely match what is "ancient"?

[Hendrik]

Try running 5 miles a day for some cardio, SLT wont give your cardio a work out.


it is a different type of training.
Cardio is not suitable for the weak or people with illness.


SLT if doing it properly will increase the breathing intake helping the internal organs, regulating BP, and not stress the internal organs such as cardio.



One cannot using the Western way of thinking to look into the SLT design. it is a different system which work in a different way.

[Hendrik]

It can be objectively proven that changes in breathing technique can increase breathing efficiency.

But objectively proving the "Qi sink[s] to Dan Tien"? Only via shoddy research.


As I said before: it is at best a visualization aid rooted in cultural folklore.



Qi sink to Dan Tien is just another way of saying " Natural Lower Abs breathing" in Chinese. You dont like to call it Qi sink to Dan Tien, Call it Natural Lower abs breathing.

where is Visualization involved?




Out of curiosity, do you have objective evidence such branches more closely match what is "ancient"?


Because Koo lo and YKS have shorter direct / less evolved connection to Red Boat era compare with lots of other lineages which has been evolved.


This is the grand student of Leung Jan, his sifu is the student of Leung Jan, so, how far could his sifu divert from Leung Jan? how far could his art divert from Leung Jan keep in the time capsule in a small distance village?

http://www.apricotforesthall.com/AKWCtree.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7vjAqAvjg

[Tom Kagan]

where is Visualization involved?

Are you serious? Practically the entire video series of the person you posted is one big visualization aid for a specific methodology.

... From a balding guy with a slight paunch, no less. lol!



Because Koo lo and YKS have shorter direct / less evolved connection to Red Boat era compare with lots of other lineages which has been evolved.


That is a postulate, not evidence.

[k gledhill]

it is a different type of training.
Cardio is not suitable for the weak or people with illness.


SLT if doing it properly will increase the breathing intake helping the internal organs, regulating BP, and not stress the internal organs such as cardio.



One cannot using the Western way of thinking to look into the SLT design. it is a different system which work in a different way.


hmmmm, I see. :D

[WC1277]

.......................shows your complete lack of understanding about Ving Tsun!!!

Best quote????................some things in Bil Jee are silly. :eek::eek::eek:


That has to be one of the worse posts on VT ever in the history of the universe!!!

GH

Why don't you please enlighten all of us on the purpose and application of the first part of SLT Graham, specifically the hand movements and how to do them properly. You've seriously never heard of the concept of hitting/parrying with both sides? Please address the purpose and application of the other forms as well.

Lonetiger108, wasn't bashing the weapons forms, just think they're more reinforcement of empty hands, so therefore not really necessary in the scheme of things, more personal choice....

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1107429]

Joy just reminded me of that long list of Indian comedians, like,...er..and hmmm, errhhh...wait theres...errhhh ? I know Joy sad attempt at humo/ur , but at least its not snowing, pokety, poke,poke,poke :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try not to be funny- you ain't good at it.

joy

[Tom Kagan]

Try not to be funny- you ain't good at it.

joy

If I'm not mistaken, I met Kevin in the late nineties. If I recall correctly, Kevin is also British. This lends more credence to your theory.

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1107603]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try not to be funny- you ain't good at it.

joy

Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit.

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1107387]Question: Why did the chicken cross the road?
Response: Why does a chicken need to have a reason to do anything?


That was worth waiting for............ thanks again

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1107387]Question: Why did the chicken cross the road?
Response: Why does a chicken need to have a reason to do anything?


That was worth waiting for............ thanks again
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

does not need a reason because--


A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

joy

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1107663]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

does not need a reason because--


A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

joy



Hahaha........ taht was eggcellent Joy

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1107663]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

does not need a reason because--


A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

joy

yeah, stick to writing articles....

[Graham H]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1107663]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

does not need a reason because--


A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

joy

Well that one will go down in history!!! :D:D:D

GH

[Graham H]

Why don't you please enlighten all of us on the purpose and application of the first part of SLT Graham, specifically the hand movements and how to do them properly. You've seriously never heard of the concept of hitting/parrying with both sides? Please address the purpose and application of the other forms as well.

.


....for training the punch and structure for the punch....the small idea!!

Simple stuff eh???

Maybe you have another idea. There are loads of conflicting ones on this forum for sure and they are all very entertaining just like our new found comedians!! :D:D:D

GH

[k gledhill]

If I'm not mistaken, I met Kevin in the late nineties. If I recall correctly, Kevin is also British. This lends more credence to your theory.

When was that ? At VK seminar in Mott st NYC ?

[k gledhill]

....for training the punch and structure for the punch....the small idea!!

Simple stuff eh???

Maybe you have another idea. There are loads of conflicting ones on this forum for sure and they are all very entertaining just like our new found comedians!! :D:D:D

GH

read Joys articles , there is a new comedian ;)

[Graham H]

read Joys articles , there is a new comedian ;)

I have better things to do like watch paint dry!!! ;):D:D

GH

[Vajramusti]

read Joys articles , there is a new comedian ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear failed comedian-since you keep choosing to be personal-

you have other problems besides a lack of humor( putting smileys- is not enough), apparent memory lapses-shown in some of your posts, obvious reading difficulties, spelling problems for sure.lack of at least some civil respect for the teacher you apparently have been associated with the longest,jumbled verbosity in many posts, repetitious dogma after seeing the light on the road to a Tarsus-long distance learning and more.

Why don't we move on and put each other on ignore? Ditto for your compadre.

Joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear failed comedian-since you keep choosing to be personal-

you have other problems besides a lack of humor( putting smileys- is not enough), apparent memory lapses-shown in some of your posts, obvious reading difficulties, spelling problems for sure.lack of at least some civil respect for the teacher you apparently have been associated with the longest,jumbled verbosity in many posts, repetitious dogma after seeing the light on the road to a Tarsus-long distance learning and more.

Why don't we move on and put each other on ignore? Ditto for your compadre.

Joy chaudhuri

The bit about failed comedian, thats low. :D ...but reading the articles cheers me up again.

as for my spelling mistakes , eh, only Anal types really go there, Hello Joy ;) !

As for the memory lapses ? lapse , what lapse ? :D can you be more specific...

Jumbled verbosity to those who , like yourself, just don't understand, others DO ! wow Joy doesn't, so its all a jumbled diatribe of a guy who's seen the light on the road.

I dont profess to being as capable as you are at writing or punctuation, but everyone has strengths and weakness.

And as for being an ex-instructor to the renowned 'King of Chi-sao' and now being an avid student of Philipp Bayer a student of the 'King of VT fighting'....you only have to meet PB. ;)

[anerlich]

being an avid student of Philipp Bayer a student of the 'King of VT fighting'....you only have to meet PB.


You needed a :rolleyes: instead of a ;)

[k gledhill]

You needed a :rolleyes: instead of a ;)

thanks :rolleyes:;):D:cool:

[Vajramusti]

If I'm not mistaken there are two major types of meditation. One is concentration - focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The other is mindfulness - tying to be aware of everything at once. I believe that it was mindfulness that Sun Lu Tang practiced.

I was wondering which type of meditation is traditional for WC? Does it come from the Ermei or Shaolin tradition?

I would also like to hear your thoughts on sitting as opposed to standing meditation. From what I've read of the aikido master Ueshiba, he seemed to do a lot of sitting meditation.

I think that meditation is something that many martial artists don't have the patience for.

Andy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Threads end up zig zagging all over the place. There are many different kinds of meditation.
Mindfully doing the sil lim tao is a good start for wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

The bit about failed comedian, thats low. :D ...but reading the articles cheers me up again.

as for my spelling mistakes , eh, only Anal types really go there, Hello Joy ;) !

As for the memory lapses ? lapse , what lapse ? :D can you be more specific...

Jumbled verbosity to those who , like yourself, just don't understand, others DO ! wow Joy doesn't, so its all a jumbled diatribe of a guy who's seen the light on the road.

I dont profess to being as capable as you are at writing or punctuation, but everyone has strengths and weakness.

And as for being an ex-instructor to the renowned 'King of Chi-sao' and now being an avid student of Philipp Bayer a student of the 'King of VT fighting'....you only have to meet PB. ;)

For being an "instructor" yourself you should be able to express yourself more clearly when speaking WC theory/technique.

Victor Kan was not really the "king of Chi Sao", a title he obtained from who knows where that he used to commercialize himself. I know you saw his students first hand be walked all over a few times by a system that you've claimed over and over is just chasing hands.... you don't know what you're talking about and have chosen a new system that you now feel powerful with, yet misses the big picture. If you can make it work, then good for you, but it's watered down for people exactly like you and Graham.

[Graham H]

Watered down? classic! LOL

[k gledhill]

For being an "instructor" yourself you should be able to express yourself more clearly when speaking WC theory/technique.

Victor Kan was not really the "king of Chi Sao", a title he obtained from who knows where that he used to commercialize himself. I know you saw his students first hand be walked all over a few times by a system that you've claimed over and over is just chasing hands.... you don't know what you're talking about and have chosen a new system that you now feel powerful with, yet misses the big picture. If you can make it work, then good for you, but it's watered down for people exactly like you and Graham.

What didn't you understand in my posts ?

VK isn't the king of chi-sao ? really ? :D

As for the rest, I am not sure what you're on about. :confused:

[anerlich]

There are many different kinds of meditation.
Mindfully doing the sil lim tao is a good start for wing chun.


This......

[WC1277]

What didn't you understand in my posts ?

VK isn't the king of chi-sao ? really ? :D

As for the rest, I am not sure what you're on about. :confused:

You take your experience with VK, just take a look at his website, explains everything, and gauge all of WC as the representation of that! Normally, I don't disrespect the old school, but IMO he disrespects his own Sifu, Ip Man, which rubs me wrong.

What you don't remember or appreciate is that, just like Joy brought up a long time ago, yourself and VK's students had their butts handed to them down there in Tucson. You in particular, who couldn't maintain your ego or your control. How'd you like your escort outside by the way?

You've had a sore spot against Joy since you found out he was associated. And even worse, against that system, which you entirely misunderstand. I've lurked here for a long time and have heard your ridiculous claims about changing a students mind from that lineage, with whom you have never stated that guys name and/or experience. You've made comments about Grados. Let me tell you something about Grados. He's not really a student and never really was. Just a name dropper who went to a few seminars and had correspondence. Kind of like you do with Mr. Bayer. What's that say about you?

You and Graham both drive me nuts. You both sound like you're reciting notes that you jotted down at your latest seminar with PB. Graham, I don't really care about, even though I guess you're British too, at least you're an American now which automatically gives you +10 in my book. You should of opened your mind down there in Tucson man, because you will never find anything even remotely close to authenticity like that again. I've looked, I've seen and felt the WSL way, I've seen and felt most of the ways, but one thing they all lack is a deeper understanding....Everyone's stuck with Chan Wah Sun basic WC without the refinement of Leung Bik....

What you never thought about was that the kind old gentleman who hosted that seminar for you guys started training very shortly after WSL and not only was under one of the most respected students of Ip Man's, but was alive and well and fighting and winning and testing during the same time as your dear grandmaster. He is respected for a very good reason and is possibly the only one to correctly translate the theory from chinese to english in its entirety. I don't mean the Kuen Kuit, I mean real genuine understanding. When I say you have no idea what you're talking about, about anything, I mean it. Very few have the method or knowledge to teach WC correctly and I'm sorry, but while PB himself is ok in his skill, he's not conveying the right concepts to his students and it shows. It's obvious to this observer that only a portion of the pie was digested with that one.

Now, you or all of you, can say I'm just going on a rant, saying I'm just ego-tripping myself. That's fine because I don't care. In my experience, I'd say there's only about 4 true real "masters" of wing chun left alive right now in this world. WC is going to h#ll fast on a hand basket unfortunately. Kevin, it's a shame your eyes weren't open when they should of been......

[Graham H]

Ha! Excelent! Top drawer stuff that mate! :rolleyes:

I must run off to get my seminar notes before I post again!!! lmfao :D:D:D:D:D

GH

[k gledhill]

Wc1277 your obviously biased so nothing I can say , nor would I want to change your thinking, stay wherever you are and indulge yourself.
:D

[GlennR]

Wc1277 your obviously biased so nothing I can say , nor would I want to change your thinking, stay wherever you are and indulge yourself.
:D



Gee, i was hoping for a much more fiery response from the waterboys!

[Hendrik]

In my experience, I'd say there's only about 4 true real "masters" of wing chun left alive right now in this world.



care to share who do you think is the 4 true real masters of wing chun left right now in this world?

[WC1277]

care to share who do you think is the 4 true real masters of wing chun left right now in this world?


Those who know, know. I didn't put a single name in that post towards Kevin to name drop. He knows what I'm talking about.

[k gledhill]

Gee, i was hoping for a much more fiery response from the waterboys!

I was going to but realized that wc1277 doesnt know what he is talking about. Kinder to let it go...

[Hendrik]

Those who know, know. I didn't put a single name in that post towards Kevin to name drop. He knows what I'm talking about.


please share your view, got nothing to do with Kevin.

[Vajramusti]

please share your view, got nothing to do with Kevin.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No point in arguing over names.

joy

[Hendrik]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No point in arguing over names.

joy



sharing what one think is sharing.
No need to argue over names.


saying half but not saying the other half just confuse everyone.

[Vajramusti]

sharing what one think is sharing.
No need to argue over names.


saying half but not saying the other half just confuse everyone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-


Should not be any confusion. He seems to think that 1. There a very few really knowledgeable people on the subject of wing chun and 2. a little knowledge of wing chun is being mixed with
quite a bit of non wing chun materials.

No problem. It is what it is... labels not withstanding.

I think that reading much of kfo threads points towards similar conclusions. What is there to argue
about?

My 4 would be Shawn T and Larry. Mo and Curly <G>

Besides-confusion is not all bad- could be the beginning of knowledge- some say..

joy