Fascia Training vs. Bodybuilding vs. Weightlifting?

[TAO YIN]

Fascia Training vs. Bodybuiilding bs. Weightlifting?

I have read a few articles of Iron Body practitioners talking about Fascia training, both in the sense of Hei and Noi Gung.

My big questions is, what does this type of Fascia training do that Bodybuilding and Weightlifting doesn't? About the only thing that I have ever read is, some have said that it is more "internal" than Bodybuilding and Weightlifting, and that the last two are "external." I guess meaning something like they have big muscles but bad insides???

What are the physiological differences, besides just simply saying isometric and weighted pressure?:confused:

[Razaunida]

yes....................................

[TAO YIN]

Yes, um......Yes what?:)

[Razaunida]

strong meat gets tough


tenderize the meat like you would a chicken breast.


Supple and strong.

As to qi and piezoelectricity it is simple. Bone stress and blood flow. That is it.

[JamesC]

I've never even heard of fascia training. What is it?

[TAO YIN]

James C,

I wish that I could tell you objectively. I have heard people say that it occurs from the type of Noi Gung that they do, and I have heard people say that it occurs from the type of Hay Gung that they do.

If it is for example, tense isometric exercises, I don't see what the difference is between it and bodybuidling.

More later I hope?

[taai gihk yahn]

I've never even heard of fascia training. What is it?

more make-believe fantasy, from the same people that brought you qi=bioelectricity...

[JamesC]

Gotcha.

At least someone will make money teaching/selling it to all the ruhtards out there.

[Razaunida]

everything can be trained or altered if it is growing.

Bone, tendon, muscle.


What do they say they are doing to train fascia? Fascia isn't well known to most people and is often sued to explain connections in the body.

Personally I think blood makes more sense as a great connector. Fascia maybe as well, but I'm a fan of the most simple solution.

[Dragonzbane76]

sounds like an exotic term for lifting or dynamics to me. :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

everything can be trained or altered if it is growing.
yes, but to varying degrees of directness...


Bone, tendon, muscle.
What do they say they are doing to train fascia? Fascia isn't well known to most people and is often sued to explain connections in the body.
people have a lot of fantabulous ideas about it, without really understanding it; I personally blame the osteopaths for this, lol...


Personally I think blood makes more sense as a great connector. Fascia maybe as well, but I'm a fan of the most simple solution.
fascia is one aspect of deep connective tissue; bone marrow is another; so there is an interelationship; read the link in my signature about connective tissue as a proposed medium for full-body "communication"

[taai gihk yahn]

sounds like an exotic term for lifting or dynamics to me. :rolleyes:

fascia is generally non-contractile (CT does demonstrate sum contractile properties, but not in the way muscle does); it responds to mechanical force, mostly load over time, which alters the lines of tension along which fibroblasts lay down new cells; so you can have deformation of fascia / connective tissue which can limit mobility; you can also "train" it by loading it over time - yoga is an excellent and straightforward method of "aligning / realigning" CT - you don't need any new-fangled jingoisms...

[Dragonzbane76]

sounds a little like negative lifting. Positive being the way you generally see most people lifting in the gym.

Negative would be the opposite direction in a tense slow manner.
the compression in the opposite direction at a very slow invert.

hard to find the wording for it. :o

[Razaunida]

blood nourishes the tendons


My Shifu always says that we should nourish blood to have strong tendons and use herbs for nourishing blood in wines for "tendon wine" Is this association between bone marrow and tendon be an explanation of this?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w3157x6237336143/

This makes me think of bone marrow washing in a new light.

[TAO YIN]

What I have read about "Fascia" training for the most part, is that it is related to Soft Chi Gung like bone marrow washing and tendon changing. The fascia is under the skin and connects to the muscles? Or something like.

Apparently (apparently only and according to pseudo-science I have read), over time, with Noi Gung practice, the fasica gets filled with "qi," and then drains it into the muscles, tendons, and finally bones.

I don't get how that could possibly occur.

But then again, I don't get how Shi Guolin (apparently) for his "Iron Body" mainly did Noi Gong practices?

[taai gihk yahn]

blood nourishes the tendons


My Shifu always says that we should nourish blood to have strong tendons and use herbs for nourishing blood in wines for "tendon wine" Is this association between bone marrow and tendon be an explanation of this?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w3157x6237336143/

This makes me think of bone marrow washing in a new light.

your sifu's idea of tendon is different than what is described anatomically; in TCM, "tendon's" are considered analagous to muscle and ligament, all falling under the general heading of "sinews"; ask your sifu to explain the physioogica properties of "tendon", and see if he gives you an answer anywhere near what is known about them physiologically;

in other words, you are mixing and matching TCM and contemporary anatomical / physiological terms, and it just doesn't work, because one is largely metaphorical while the other is not;

stop trying to appear "intelughunt" because you are just apeing what you have heard and have no capacity to discern independently what is what;

[Razaunida]

I think you don't know. Its hard to say isn't it "I don't know"

I appreciate what you do know, but its okay to say that you don't.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think you don't know. Its hard to say isn't it "I don't know"
you might want to start practicing really hard then


I appreciate what you do know,
no, actually you don't; you have not understood a singe thing I am talking about;


but its okay to say that you don't.
I am the first to say that I don't know something when it is demonstrated to me by people of greater understanding than me that I don't; the only thing, you are not one of those people; and never will be;

[faxiapreta]

blood nourishes the tendons


My Shifu always says that we should nourish blood to have strong tendons and use herbs for nourishing blood in wines for "tendon wine" Is this association between bone marrow and tendon be an explanation of this?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w3157x6237336143/

This makes me think of bone marrow washing in a new light.

Whew boy... more reasons most people think of kung fu as a bunch of huey.

[taai gihk yahn]

Whew boy... more reasons most people think of kung fu as a bunch of huey.

the thing is, TCM per se is not a bunch of huey, as long as it is practiced in a comprehensive and internally consistent manner; the problem is that you get amateurs like Razamundo who toss off a few snippets and think they are experts; but this is actually the same thing as has happened historically in China - you get TCMA sifu who throw out a few TCM terms, and people think they are great doctors...honestly, it's pretty much impossible to be both a great fighter and a great healer - you just don't have enough time to train both...

[taai gihk yahn]

Just to a cap on this whole discourse:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=%2Fchronicle%2Farchive%2F2000%2F0 1%2F18%2FMN73840.DTL

[TenTigers]

I had been taught that iron body/impact training strengthens fascia and connective tissue.
There have been studies that show that people who were involved in contact sports (rugby, football, hockey, martial arts, wrestling, etc) had a higher survival rate in impact related auto accidents, due to the strengthening of the fascia and connective tissue supporting the organs.
We're not talking about head through windshield, or being impaled on the steering column, but the injuries from massive trauma, where the internal organs were ruptured.
Think, shaken baby syndrome, in a Chevy.
In many methods of iron body, the breath is "packed," or compressed-held with muscular tension. In this manner it wraps and surrounds, and puts pressures on the organs, strengthening the tissue.

[JamesC]

I had been taught that iron body/impact training strengthens fascia and connective tissue.
There have been studies that show that people who were involved in contact sports (rugby, football, hockey, martial arts, wrestling, etc) had a higher survival rate in impact related auto accidents, due to the strengthening of the fascia and connective tissue supporting the organs.
We're not talking about head through windshield, or being impaled on the steering column, but the injuries from massive trauma, where the internal organs were ruptured.
Think, shaken baby syndrome, in a Chevy.
In many methods of iron body, the breath is "packed," or compressed-held with muscular tension. In this manner it wraps and surrounds, and puts pressures on the organs, strengthening the tissue.

Doesn't proper squat form do this too...?

Honest question. I'm clueless about this fascia stuff.

Proper squat form includes full lungs in the low squat(past parallel) position. Is this similar?

[faxiapreta]

Doesn't proper squat form do this too...?

Honest question. I'm clueless about this fascia stuff.

Proper squat form includes full lungs in the low squat(past parallel) position. Is this similar?

Proper squat technique = valsava maneuver = increased stability and support due to increased intra-thoracic pressure.

[faxiapreta]

I had been taught that iron body/impact training strengthens fascia and connective tissue.
There have been studies that show that people who were involved in contact sports (rugby, football, hockey, martial arts, wrestling, etc) had a higher survival rate in impact related auto accidents, due to the strengthening of the fascia and connective tissue supporting the organs.
We're not talking about head through windshield, or being impaled on the steering column, but the injuries from massive trauma, where the internal organs were ruptured.
Think, shaken baby syndrome, in a Chevy.
In many methods of iron body, the breath is "packed," or compressed-held with muscular tension. In this manner it wraps and surrounds, and puts pressures on the organs, strengthening the tissue.

taai gihk yahn would best explain this.

[TenTigers]

Proper squat technique = valsava maneuver = increased stability and support due to increased intra-thoracic pressure.
valsalva maeuver is performed during many forms of saamjien/sanchin/iron body training.
-although I wouldn't want to be pressure tested, (punched, pounded, shocked, etc) while doing squats.

[TenTigers]

taai gihk yahn would best explain this.
agreed. Where's TGY? We'll get to the bottom of this....

[taai gihk yahn]

I had been taught that iron body/impact training strengthens fascia and connective tissue.
There have been studies that show that people who were involved in contact sports (rugby, football, hockey, martial arts, wrestling, etc) had a higher survival rate in impact related auto accidents, due to the strengthening of the fascia and connective tissue supporting the organs.
We're not talking about head through windshield, or being impaled on the steering column, but the injuries from massive trauma, where the internal organs were ruptured.
Think, shaken baby syndrome, in a Chevy.
In many methods of iron body, the breath is "packed," or compressed-held with muscular tension. In this manner it wraps and surrounds, and puts pressures on the organs, strengthening the tissue.

it's probably a more reasonable perspective than most; CT does respond to both compression and tension loading, and it does so in context of tensegrity principles, so concussive input would work on force dissipation via property of discontinuous compression, whereas the breath holding could activate the continuous tension aspect; I think the idea of incremental input over time is valid in regards to how CT seems to adapt to applied forces in terms of remodeling; again, i'm just conjecturing here...

and yes, valsalva does increase core stability;

[faxiapreta]

valsalva maeuver is performed during many forms of saamjien/sanchin/iron body training.
-although I wouldn't want to be pressure tested, (punched, pounded, shocked, etc) while doing squats.

Then it would be different than most forms of contact activities. In which breath is forcibly exhaled on contact.

Maybe taai gihk yahn can speak to the potential effectiveness of both forcible exhalation vs. the valsava.

[bawang]

catch wrestling does internal massage and breathing excercises

[TenTigers]

Then it would be different than most forms of contact activities. In which breath is forcibly exhaled on contact.
.
hmm. don't know about that. When you get hit, blindsided by a tackle, body check etc, you are not forcibly expelling air. You usually contract and hold your breath at impact on instinct. Just going by personal experience.

[faxiapreta]

hmm. don't know about that. When you get hit, blindsided by a tackle, body check etc, you are not forcibly expelling air. You usually contract and hold your breath at impact on instinct. Just going by personal experience.


Most athletes will do a combination of tensing the musculature while doing a forcible exhalation if they are aware of a hit coming. Boxers often learn to do body shots while the opponent is inhaling vs. exhaling and also learn to exhale as part of taking and delivering a punch.

My personal experience is that this combination of contracting the muscles while forcibly exhaling seems to work the best.

[bawang]

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/scans/burns02-03-01.jpg
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/scans/burns02-03-04.jpg
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/scans/burns02-03-05.jpg

[faxiapreta]

My bet is, that, although I'm not aware of any research involving this, that the valsalva maneuver is better for strength activities, while the forcible exhalation is better for power activities (i.e. delivering a punch or kick) as well as for shock absorption.

[Frost]

Proper squat technique = valsava maneuver = increased stability and support due to increased intra-thoracic pressure.

this..............

[JamesC]

Proper squat technique = valsava maneuver = increased stability and support due to increased intra-thoracic pressure.

Thanks. I couldn't think of the **** word earlier

[sanjuro_ronin]

You body adapts, it adapts to the stress that it is put through.
That is why the body changes and the degree of change is dependent on the degree of stress.

Having done "internal" body work like the IW and "external" one like Sanchin and the typical "hard contact" that goes on in full contact MA systems, I can say that BOTH methods have merit, but that the "hands on direct" one done in FC gyms is quicker, though it can have some adverse side effects which are obvious because of the training.
Both methods are preferred for a "well developed and complete" system.
Strength building wise, the most effective and efficient methods is the typical ST protocols that we have with weights.

RE: The Valsava maneuver-
It is pretty natural to do when we, even the untrained, try to move or lift any heavy object.
It is crucial for squats and DL's and even heavy overhead lifting.
It is used in some forms of "iron body", but there are some dangers in using it that way - Holding breath and getting hit is never a good thing, but then again the valsava is NOT done to get hit that way, but to develop the "internals" so that if you do get hit, you have the added benefits of strong core along with the attributes of the typical "exhale when hit" training.

[gareththomasnz]

I recently did a blog post on this

http://www.freefitnessguru.com/blog/bodybuilding-2/lessons-from-extreme-military-athletes-joint-centric-training/.php

Basically most people either train body parts...

Chest
arms
legs

Or they train exercises...

Bench press
squat
running
MA


But your body then has a weakness as it is designed to respond best to functional training.

Anaerobic and aerobic are physiological fitness that the two types of training can provide.

What the do not provide is anatomical fitness - joint development

Really we should build a foundation of fascia training as well as anaerobic & aerobic.

Then there is longevity of athleticism, less injury and greater development.

I call it "Joint Centric Training"

[IronWeasel]

fascia is generally non-contractile (CT does demonstrate sum contractile properties, but not in the way muscle does); it responds to mechanical force, mostly load over time, which alters the lines of tension along which fibroblasts lay down new cells; so you can have deformation of fascia / connective tissue which can limit mobility; you can also "train" it by loading it over time - yoga is an excellent and straightforward method of "aligning / realigning" CT - you don't need any new-fangled jingoisms...


This is the most concise description of Iron Body/fascia training that I've read so far.

Thank you.

[wenshu]

http://isaacloo.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/rr-2.jpg?w=590