Placebo...

[TAO YIN]

I hear this mentioned often with regards to martial arts, and well, just about every kind of physical thing.

I have many questions about it, but I do not want to bore others with posting it here. One question I have though, is when does it stop working and how does the body overcome it and tell it to stop working?

For example, I can run about 2 miles keeping a good 6 minute for each mile, then, something screws up in me, and for the 3rd and 4th mile I'll get 8 minutes, and for the 5th, 10. I work on my running some, but it always seems to be something like this, no matter how hard I push myself in whatever training I am doing.

What causes the placebo to shut down and the body to take over? Is the body taking over, or is it still the placebo telling the body to tell itself to take over?

[taai gihk yahn]

placebo effect is basically utilizing belief systems (conscious or unconscious) to engage and / or augment the body's natural drive towards homeostasis; one of the major effects of this is to decrease systemic inflammatory processes, thereby decreasing pain; it will also typically increase parasympathetic tone throughout the system, improving things like venous / lymphatic return, digestion and tissue healing (of course, these things are very much interelated, so one can inform the other in a variety of different feedback loops);

that's pretty much it, it really doesn't get much more complicated than that;

oh, except when people misunderstand it and attribute it to things like divine intervention and "qi" healing, or when it is diminished by people who think you can only have changes of such a nature through the use of pharmaceuticals (it reall takes a beating on both ends, lol)

[Razaunida]

yi moves qi. This is a basic tenant of qi gong practice. Intention work is rounding up the troops at a cellular level and getting the whole body to work together at a conscious and subconscious level.


intention may run through different brainwave patterns that are associated with a greater degree of wound healing.

[taai gihk yahn]

yi moves qi. This is a basic tenant of qi gong practice. Intention work is rounding up the troops at a cellular level and getting the whole body to work together at a conscious and subconscious level.
you cannot mix paradigms; when you talk about "yi leading qi", it is a metaphor; you cannot talk about anything at the "cellular level" in regards to TCM, because they had NO IDEA about the existence of cells!


intention may run through different brainwave patterns that are associated with a greater degree of wound healing.
that is plausible, but I am not familiar with any objective research in this area;

[Razaunida]

you cannot mix paradigms; when you talk about "yi leading qi", it is a metaphor; you cannot talk about anything at the "cellular level" in regards to TCM, because they had NO IDEA about the existence of cells!


that is plausible, but I am not familiar with any objective research in this area;

Fair enough, I just meant to get all of the body systems working in harmony. Maybe this is what is meant by the six harmonies. Stepping off the brakes.

[faxiapreta]

I hear this mentioned often with regards to martial arts, and well, just about every kind of physical thing.

I have many questions about it, but I do not want to bore others with posting it here. One question I have though, is when does it stop working and how does the body overcome it and tell it to stop working?

For example, I can run about 2 miles keeping a good 6 minute for each mile, then, something screws up in me, and for the 3rd and 4th mile I'll get 8 minutes, and for the 5th, 10. I work on my running some, but it always seems to be something like this, no matter how hard I push myself in whatever training I am doing.

What causes the placebo to shut down and the body to take over? Is the body taking over, or is it still the placebo telling the body to tell itself to take over?

Running 2 miles at 6 minutes per mile and then slowing down that pace has nothing to do with the placebo effect.

The placebo effect would be adding some type of inert substance or training protocol into your program and then either running faster or maintaining that pace for a longer period of time based on the belief of that inert protocol helping you.

[taai gihk yahn]

Fair enough, I just meant to get all of the body systems working in harmony. Maybe this is what is meant by the six harmonies. Stepping off the brakes.

no, Six Harmonies refers to something very specific, nothing to do with what I am talking about

[Razaunida]

what makes you think so?

[taai gihk yahn]

what makes you think so?

nothing; I'm an idiot; just ignore me;

[TAO YIN]

Faxiapreta,

Hello, thanks for the reply. I gave that example as that is kind of how I understood it. As the body taking over the mind or the mind taking over the body. I guess I just read into it that way when I heard people talk about the placebo effect. I have not really ever studied up on it.

A good question though, what does cause me to have that problem in my running???

Cheers

[Scott R. Brown]

Your times during your runs increase due to fatigue. It is a bit unusual that your first two miles are that fast. It usuallly would be the second and third miles that would be the best as the first mile is more of a warm up.

Most likely, however, your times drop so fast because you are running too fast the first two miles. There is nothing wrong with that, however, experienced runners pace themselves. That is, intentionally run slower at the beginning knowing they will be more fatigued towards the end of the run. This allows them to keep a more constant pace throughout the entire run and even have a bit of increase intensity at the end.

What you are doing is rabbiting, as in the tale of the rabbit and the hare. Running all out at the beginning and dying at the end. It is common with inexperienced runners.

[TAO YIN]

Thanks for the advice Scott, I have tried that before but will go back to it and try it again. I generally agree with what you say that it is fatigue. But I don't get why I am fatiguing and why I can't push through it. I am healthy, eat healthy, can do any other kind of training, more or less, equally. Sure can't running though. Maybe I just suck at it, but I'll keep working at it.

[Razaunida]

How are the six harmonies different than what was mentioned earlier?

You seem to have it on some authority as to what the six harmonies are and are not. It should be easy for you to elaborate.

I think you have knowledge, but lack wisdom. Your attachment to your worldview is clouding you.


You say that you can't mix constructs...in other words TCM can't describe cells, yet for some magical reason biomedical can adopt TCM theories as their own and try to explain them. Why isn't it a two way street? This implies that they developed in isolation and that one is superior to the other. On both accounts this is false. Science and technology is not Western Medicine. Medicine is the tradition of patient care. Both Western and Chinese medicine have consistently adopted new knowledge into their respective practices. I saw a TCM museum in Beijing, there were cadaver parts with acupuncture needles going around nerves. Every TCM doctor knows about cells, how can you say that this is mixing a construct?

Are you describing dermatomes? Who invented those? Chiropractic? Osteopathy? Much of it was stolen from East Asian traditions, but not cited as a source because brown people don't count.

So sad, you could be smart, knowledgeable and wise, but at least you are knowledgeable. When you learn to be more than think and know the others will come along as well.

[Scott R. Brown]

Thanks for the advice Scott, I have tried that before but will go back to it and try it again. I generally agree with what you say that it is fatigue. But I don't get why I am fatiguing and why I can't push through it. I am healthy, eat healthy, can do any other kind of training, more or less, equally. Sure can't running though. Maybe I just suck at it, but I'll keep working at it.

It is just human physiology. You only have so much energy. It is not about your ability to push through, it is about the limits of your body. To be sure you will improve over time, but the only way any runner can keep the same times for every mile on any run, even pros, is to pace themselves. No one can go 100%, 100% of the time.

[taai gihk yahn]

How are the six harmonies different than what was mentioned earlier?

You seem to have it on some authority as to what the six harmonies are and are not. It should be easy for you to elaborate.

I think you have knowledge, but lack wisdom. Your attachment to your worldview is clouding you.


You say that you can't mix constructs...in other words TCM can't describe cells, yet for some magical reason biomedical can adopt TCM theories as their own and try to explain them. Why isn't it a two way street? This implies that they developed in isolation and that one is superior to the other. On both accounts this is false. Science and technology is not Western Medicine. Medicine is the tradition of patient care. Both Western and Chinese medicine have consistently adopted new knowledge into their respective practices. I saw a TCM museum in Beijing, there were cadaver parts with acupuncture needles going around nerves. Every TCM doctor knows about cells, how can you say that this is mixing a construct?

Are you describing dermatomes? Who invented those? Chiropractic? Osteopathy? Much of it was stolen from East Asian traditions, but not cited as a source because brown people don't count.

So sad, you could be smart, knowledgeable and wise, but at least you are knowledgeable. When you learn to be more than think and know the others will come along as well.

you are absolutely correct;

[Scott R. Brown]

you are absolutely correct;

Smartest chicken in the coop!:eek:

[faxiapreta]

Thanks for the advice Scott, I have tried that before but will go back to it and try it again. I generally agree with what you say that it is fatigue. But I don't get why I am fatiguing and why I can't push through it. I am healthy, eat healthy, can do any other kind of training, more or less, equally. Sure can't running though. Maybe I just suck at it, but I'll keep working at it.

You can't push through it because you start to develop acidocis and the muscles don't function well in an acidic environment.

Consistent and well-designed training develops the ability to buffer the acid, resulting in less fatigue.

BTW, running is a great practical example of how you can't use "qi" to overcome the physiological processes of the body.

[faxiapreta]

It is just human physiology. You only have so much energy. It is not about your ability to push through, it is about the limits of your body. To be sure you will improve over time, but the only way any runner can keep the same times for every mile on any run, even pros, is to pace themselves. No one can go 100%, 100% of the time.

The human body has three basic energy systems- the phosphocreatine, the glycolytic, and the oxidative. Anything over 45-60 seconds of activity generally relies on the oxidative system.

The primary limiting factor in activities using the oxidative system is acidocis, not energy.

[TAO YIN]

Faxiapreta,

Thanks for the note, and your answer. I was researching some of the terms that you noted. Very interesting.

Not to turn this into a running thread, but do you have any links that could help me out? Any kind of programs that work to buffer the acid?

Although my routine is consistent, I don't think that it is very well designed.

Thanks in advance,

Tao

[Scott R. Brown]

Faxiapreta,

Thanks for the note, and your answer. I was researching some of the terms that you noted. Very interesting.

Not to turn this into a running thread, but do you have any links that could help me out? Any kind of programs that work to buffer the acid?

Although my routine is consistent, I don't think that it is very well designed.

Thanks in advance,

Tao

The body buffers the acid on its own, you don't have to do anything but challenge it and you body willl adapt over time. By pushing yourself your body becomes more efficient, but there will always be limits.

You are already pushing yourself by your description, however most people push harder at the end of the run while you are pushing yourself at the beginning.

How you design a running program depends upon what your goals are. This applies to any training program, including martial arts training, weight lifting, strectching, plyometrics, etc. First decide what your goal or purpose is, then design your training program around your goals.

[Scott R. Brown]

The human body has three basic energy systems- the phosphocreatine, the glycolytic, and the oxidative. Anything over 45-60 seconds of activity generally relies on the oxidative system.

The primary limiting factor in activities using the oxidative system is acidocis, not energy.

First of all, the oxidative system, IS an energy system. Secondly, show off somewhere else. Your explanation is too detailed for a general fitness discussion and un-necessary knowledge for most people. Knowing how the mitochondria converts food into energy is mostly useless information when all someone wants to do is run faster, or longer.

[Razaunida]

Yes stop showing off your book learning.

We caint have that roun heaw.

[TAO YIN]

Scott,

Good to hear from you here again. Tomorrow, after a warm up, I am going to try what you said and try to pace myself a little slower the first 2 miles, then gradually speed up and see what it does. For me that last mile is SO hard to give my all to. Well the last lap isn't but the rest, arggggh. It isn't always like that, but for some reason that my brain just does a meltdown. I haven't been training long distance running long enough though. I did long ago; it's just hard to get back into it full on for an extended period of time.

My friend told me the best thing for me to do would be to get off the track and start running cross country up hills and that, to really break up the routine, and even to develop a new routine on a different surface, then do it on many different surfaces, then go back to the track. I might try that out.

Anyways, cheers.

Tao

[Razaunida]

don't be a wuss.

do some qi gong and get a massage that will make you cry.

Take some electrolytes for your sodium potassium pumps and get back out there.

[TAO YIN]

If I get a massage, probably will just go to sleep, unless I was in China. I could use some electrolytes though.

I like doing Chi Gung and walking backwards at the track, is good for me back.

[Razaunida]

get a real massage...Chinese style.

Or just hire a poor American fatso to walk on you for 10 bucks and a breakfast burrito.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TAO YIN,

You are starting to include some very important information.

1) how long was your lay off?

2) how many days are you running?

3) how far are you running?

4) how old are you?

5) are you monitoring your heart rate?

6) what are your training goals?

All these things will influence how you do in your training.

[faxiapreta]

First of all, the oxidative system, IS an energy system. .

The limitation of the oxidative system is not energy. You don't slow down because you run out of energy. You slow down because you build up lactic acid in the blood stream and in the local environment of the muscles.

.
Knowing how the mitochondria converts food into energy is mostly useless information when all someone wants to do is run faster, or longer.


Training the specific energy systems (which has nothing to do with knowing how the mitochondria converts food into energy) is absolutely vital to understanding which training protocol to use.

[faxiapreta]

Here is what most middle and longer distance runners use.

1- A slow pace base building phase, gradually increasing the distance over the weeks until you are running slightly longer than your goal distance.

2- A tempo phase, in which you shorten the distance back down to your goal distance and gradually start picking up the pace for that entire distance, attempting to keep the pace the same throughout.

3- An interval training phase in which a series of faster paced intervals are combined with slower paces recovery intervals of about a 1:1 time ratio of rest to recovery.

4- Using a rest recovery protocol of hard/easy or long/short any time you run two or more days in a row.

5- During the first two phases, keeping the pace consistent throughout the run, and slowing the pace down in any parts of the run that are significantly faster than the others.


Use this basic training protocol and you will find your running improves significantly.

[Scott R. Brown]

The limitation of the oxidative system is not energy. You don't slow down because you run out of energy. You slow down because you build up lactic acid in the blood stream and in the local environment of the muscles.

.


Training the specific energy systems (which has nothing to do with knowing how the mitochondria converts food into energy) is absolutely vital to understanding which training protocol to use.

No you don't, you slow down because of your body's inability to clear the lactic acid from your system. Which your body will improve over time with a proper training program. It is irrelevant to tell most people too much detail because they don't care, don't need to know it, and many won't understand!

It is not important to know the physiological processes that occur. You do not need to know how a car functions to drive one well.

All it takes is proper training protocols for your goals.

[faxiapreta]

No you don't, you slow down because of your body's inability to clear the lactic acid from your system.

Which results in a buildup of lactic acid... duh.



It is not important to know the physiological processes that occur. You do not need to know how a car functions to drive one well.

All it takes is proper training protocols for your goals.

Give a person a fish and he eats one meal. Teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

[wenshu]

dur, i can has criticuhl brian

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502.abstract



This research led to the assumption that lactic acid production
caused decreases in cellular and blood pH, which in turn caused the symptoms of muscle and body fatigue
during intense exercise. This evidence was not cause-and-affect, but rather guilt by association. Lactic acid
was shown to increase when pH decreased, and fatigue followed. No evidence existed that proved that the
acidic form of lactate (lactic acid) was produced, or that protons released from lactic acid caused the acidosis.
At this time there was no knowledge of how acids and bases interacted chemically, and therefore, no reason to
distinguish between an acid and an acid salt (Figure 1).Once this content is presented, it must be reiterated that there is no scientific evidence for explaining
acidosis by the production of lactate. Furthermore, it is important to express that several scientists have
questioned the explanation of acidosis caused by lactate production (4-10), and that an alternate explanation of
acidosis is therefore supported by numerous academics and scientists. In short, you are not alone in wanting to
provide another, more correct, explanation of the biochemical causes of acidosis.

Finally, it should also be stressed that the assumption that acidosis is caused by the production of
metabolic acids is wrong. Acids are one source of free protons, but free protons can also be released by
chemical reactions. Thus, it is possible to have chemical reactions contribute to acidosis without producing any
acids at all!
http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/TeachingByRobertRobergs.pdf

[Scott R. Brown]

dur, i can has criticuhl brian

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502.abstract


http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/TeachingByRobertRobergs.pdf

OUCH!!!!:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Like I said, it doesn't matter one way or the other. If you have the proper training protocols, you will improve regardless of whether you know what is going on on the cellular level or not!

[faxiapreta]

dur, i can has criticuhl brian

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R502.abstract


http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/TeachingByRobertRobergs.pdf

Possibly there is a mechanism other than lactic acid responsible for the acidosis.

Either way, acidosis is still the limiting factor. Doesn't really matter what the precursor was.

[faxiapreta]

Like I said, it doesn't matter one way or the other. If you have the proper training protocols, you will improve regardless of whether you know what is going on on the cellular level or not!

Training the CP energy system is different than training the glycolytic system is different than training the oxydative.

You don't need to know the cellular mechanisms, but you need to know which system to train.

[Scott R. Brown]

Training the CP energy system is different than training the glycolytic system is different than training the oxydative.

You don't need to know the cellular mechanisms, but you need to know which system to train.

I am pretty sure that is what I have been saying this whole time!

What is most important is to know what his training goals are first, then tailor the training program according to what he wants to accomplish!