Wude: Anywhere to be found?

[Minghequan]

I know I am going to cop grief and "S#@t" for this but here goes:

Is there such a thing as "Wude" here?

Gene?

[Snipsky]

No.........

[faxiapreta]

Yes...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wude

[Minghequan]

Hmmmm. It would seem so.

But why is that?

[YouKnowWho]

You may have it before you come to this forum. The longer that you stay, the less your will have any left. The reason is simple. You may not want to hurt a tiger but the tiger does want to eat you alive. In order for you to survive, you have to be just like that tiger. Soon, you will no longer be a human being but an animal, and you may not even notice your own changing. There is a contagious diseases spread badly in this forum. :(

A: Will someone be kind enough to ... Thanks in advance.
B: Go to fu*k yourself ...
C: You are a clueless idiot ...
D: You must be retarded ...
A: You SOB, BMF, I fu*k you 8 generation ancestor, @#$%, &^$*. If you dare to come to ... I'll beat the sh!t out of you guys. :mad: :mad: :mad:

A nice person can turn into an as*hole just in few online discussions. :D

[Minghequan]

True, true. But only if you are not personally vigilant and stop looking within.

YouKnowWho, Why are you still here if this is the case and truth of this forum and how can this forum truly be representative of the Chinese Martial Arts if Wude is absent, neglected or not evident at all?

[goju]

Wude not here man

[Minghequan]

That's so sad. Why not?

[Lebaufist]

We de is wu jia to most here.

[Minghequan]

Why is that? Just trying to get a handle on how this forum operates. What can we do to apply Wude here?

Gene Ching,

Would you like to see a movement more towards Wude here?

[Water-quan]

People love the idea that wu de means either 1. A self righteous right to judge other people over not having wu de - quite a circular argument. Or 2. Not criticising. Actually, the primarily important aspects of wu de refer to yourself - your own honesty, commitment, and belief in yourself over when it's better to remain quiet, and when it's important to speak out.

I notice the original intent of this thread seems to be 'Hey wu de means not criticising anyone' - it doesn't mean that at all; quite the opposite: it means knowing when to criticise.

[pazman]

Wude is kind of a modern fiction.

Wude as it existed long ago has less to do with being a good guy and more to do with doing your job on the battlefield: being a vicious killer with no remorse. We don't live in those times, and I hope nobody on this forum is trying to develop that kind of wude.

Wude as you see being promulgated by many TCMA masters today was a creation of gongfu masters just over a century ago in an attempt to add legitimacy to their place in society. You can see the same sort of stuff going on in Japan during the Edo period. The samurai class, rising to power, were no longer warriors and had to struggle to adapt to their new roles as bureaucrats. Thus, you can read in books all sorts of nonsense about the Samurai code. The Hagakure is a fun read, with many "laugh out loud" moments.

A lot of what we understand in the West as wude most likely stems from Jigoro Kano's development of Judo and his impact on Japanese martial arts. Chinese martial arts never really had a single innovator like Kano. Most traditional Chinese martial artists of old were never interested in promoting their skills as a physical education, or modernizing, adapting, and improving their skills. Likewise, sharing your art to improve the human condition or honestly criticizing yourself or others was not and is not at the heart of Chinese martial arts.

Minghequan, what is YOUR working definition of wude?

[David Jamieson]

those who use it use it.
No one is obligated to use it because they are here and no one is obligated to use it with
anyone who refuses to reciprocate.

[bawang]

wude is applied to warfare

[SPJ]

if you are a sheep, you are a sheep.

if you are a wolf, you are a wolf

guess what they both flock or gather together as a group

such as sheep herd

and wolf pack

--

there is wu de among sheep herds

there is wu de among wolf pack

--

guess what there is no wude between the sheep and wolf

one is prey; the other is predator

one is food; the other is eater

--

one may ask and wonder

where is the wu de for sheep and wolf

--

none.

---

[David Jamieson]

if you are a sheep, you are a sheep.

if you are a wolf, you are a wolf

guess what they both flock or gather together as a group

such as sheep herd

and wolf pack

--

there is wu de among sheep herds

there is wu de among wolf pack

--

guess what there is no wude between the sheep and wolf

one is prey; the other is predator

one is food; the other is eater

--

one may ask and wonder

where is the wu de for sheep and wolf

--

none.

---

However, wolf and sheep both are incapable of abstract thought and exist with primordial awareness only.

wude is for humans only. we are all humans.
some may act like wolves and others may act like sheep, but they are all human and they all have potential to behave like one o the other and STILL possess wude towards each other.

[SPJ]

post away what you like to share

stop wasting time to preach to wolf how not to eat a sheep.

--

wolf is only interested in how to kill and how to eat

--

actually there is wu de sort of

kill only what you eat

b/c kill too many no food tommorrow

there is eco balance

--

again wu de is among something similar or equal power

--

there is a different dependent balance if one is weak, the other is strong.

---

1 so where is wu de?

when you are strong and in dealing with the weak

2 when you are weak; may you ask for wu de from the strong?

probably not

--

[bawang]

the subject of wude in america has the taint of japanese budo.

japanese separate combat and spiritual health aspects into bujutsu and budo. so when people hear about martial morality they think its some sort of "spiritual path".


chinese martial art do not separate personal spiritual journey and war. war is the path to enlightenment.


wu de is a set of beliefs and codes that try to justify war. martial morality = morality in killing

[SPJ]

I personally more like characters development or cultivation

when you practice your MA

there are so certain things you would uphold or follow

1. you do not fight when some one is hurt or drunk

spirit of fairness

2. you help the weak, the sick and the needed

spirit of benevolence

3. you fight or help when your kung fu brothers/classmates in trouble or in need

spirit of compatriots

4. you stand by the weaker but in the right

spirit of justice

on and on

wu de is not about preaching to stranger and asking them to behave

wu de is about what you would do or wound not do when you is you

and you practicing the principles along with your MA

---

unless of course

you are the father or the teacher

and you ask your kids and students to behave

---

[bawang]

wu de is a series of beliefs and practices that dehumanize the enemy.

just like most other aspects of chinese martial arts, wu de does not fit into modern society. its alien and terrifying and unknowable to the white man.

[SPJ]

yes.

1 rule of the jungle

the weak got eaten, the strong gets to eat: ruo rou qiang shi 弱肉强食

2 rule of darwin ism

the survival of the fittest

--

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho, Why are you still here if this is the case and truth of this forum and how can this forum truly be representative of the Chinese Martial Arts if Wude is absent, neglected or not evident at all?
We can all try to help to bring the Wude back here. If we start to do that within ourselves, we may influence others. After all this forum may be the only TCMA forum that's still interest in "combat" and not just "tuck the tail bone".

The day that we find out this forum is "hopeless - beyond repair", the day that we should all leave and never come back. :(

Here are my suggestions:

- Try not to convert a christian into a muslim (or the other way around).
- Try not to be the person with the last words.
- Try not to use "YOU" and "I" in the discussion (use general WE or general YOU instead).
- Try not to use words such as "retard", "crueless", "loser", ....
- Accept other's different opinions and move on.
- Something work for you may not work for others (or the other way around).
- There is no black and white but different degree of grey.
- Internet discussion is not fighting, tiger spirit has no place here.
- ...

Is that too much to ask for?

[wenshu]

I think a lot of people erroneously conflate wu de with etiquette. Etiquette is ostensibly a part of it; the idea that you can judge someone's character by their outward behavior. What a simplistically naive worldview; a horrible person is not in any way incapable of acting polite and virtuous nor is a virtuous person incapable of acting like a complete *******.

It is patently ridiculous to try and apply a several centuries old code of ethics onto internet banter and name calling. A code of ethics with an obtuse history and cultural background. We should not be looking to impose personal behavioral values onto others, rather pay attention to why it is we should take such trivialities personally. An inflated, inflexible, brittle ego is in need of constant defending and always sees attackers on all sides.

bawang is on the right track by attempting to bring the discussion to the cultural background out of which codified warrior ethics originated. Outwardly wu de is passed down as Confucian ethics, but at it's core is Chinese Legalism. 儒表法裡
It is really a way to control a potentially dangerous population. Unarmed modern Martial Arts practitioners aren't really all that dangerous to society. Martial arts practitioners armed with the internet? Well that's only dangerous to your ego.

[YouKnowWho]

The word "Wude" may have different meaning to different people. To me "Wude" is:

- One should not bad mouth his teacher and his ancestor.
- One should not disrespect ancient TCMA masters.
- One should not pretend something who he is not.
- One should not try to cause trouble.
- We shoul be loyality to our country, honest to our friends, patient in our daily life.

[dillman]

famous story about a famous zen sword master who was fleeing a flood with rest of the vilage. the master running ahead of the crowd saw that the bridge was washed out and that the villagers would fall into the river and drown. he turns pulls out his sword and cuts down the first villager. the vilagers turn and run in fear and he saves the villagers lives. his apprentice turns to him and says "the buddha teaches that we should not kill" the master says "it would not have been compassionate not to kill". this is the true meaining of wude.

[Lokhopkuen]

I know I am going to cop grief and "S#@t" for this but here goes:

Is there such a thing as "Wude" here?

Gene?


I enjoyed reading this thread
thank you all.

[瓜娃子]

Wude means that when someone leaves your clan, you kill them.

It means that when someone sees you practicing taiji, you murder them.

[SPJ]

1 you do not reveal your fighting methods or training

publicly

to a stranger

wu de number 1

2 you do not use your teacher's name or style in vain

wu de number 2

---

[donjitsu2]

I know I am going to cop grief and "S#@t" for this but here goes:

Is there such a thing as "Wude" here?

Gene?


Wu De (http://www.uncagedfighter.com/2010/09/wu-de-will-make-you-better-fighter.html)

Shameless self promotion...does that demonstrate "Wu De"?

:D


Train Hard,

Josh Skinner

[SimonM]

However, wolf and sheep both are incapable of abstract thought.


Are you sure? Wolves employ strategy when hunting deer, establishing traps and manipulating herding strategies.

Do you really know what thoughts wolves have? :p

[Snipsky]

Do you really know what thoughts wolves have?

David wouldn't, BUT, the Pet Psychic would. :eek: What? :D Just sayin!

[David Jamieson]

Are you sure? Wolves employ strategy when hunting deer, establishing traps and manipulating herding strategies.

Do you really know what thoughts wolves have? :p

Nope, but brain functions such as abstract thought do not exist in animals that do not have the brain structure to support it, namely a fairly robust neocortex.

Wolves don't think so much as act in an instinctual manner and behave according to the impressions they received as cubs.

It's foolish to anthropomorphize with animals, that is for sure. :)

[Snipsky]

Nope, but brain functions such as abstract thought do not exist in animals that do not have the brain structure to support it, namely a fairly robust neocortex.

Wolves don't think so much as act in an instinctual manner and behave according to the impressions they received as cubs.

It's foolish to anthropomorphize with animals, that is for sure.

A parrot has the mental capacity of a four year old child.

[David Jamieson]

A parrot has the mental capacity of a four year old child.

and?

This means nothing really.
A parrot is not a four year old child and cannot do what a 4 year old child can do and the 4 year old will outstrip mental capacity in a year.

so...

Animals to the last, each and every one are subjicated by man.

[Snipsky]

Animals to the last, each and every one are subjicated by man.
OK OK...But animals can bring happiness to old people....what can you do? LOL JK

[sanjuro_ronin]

Always enjoy reading what people outside of the asian culture think about asian notions like "wude" and "bushido", we tend to convert them into our western "chivalry" and that, is not what they are.
Heck, even chivalry isn't what it was.
That said, anyone that has been around enough old school TMA teachers knows that the romantacisied notions of wude and bushido have very little to do with them.

[bawang]

westerners like wu de as long as it is an optional suggestion, or an ambiguous guideline to improve your life as a middleclass office worker.

[Ray Pina]

Wude? Everyone is a fraud and lying to themselves and perpetuating falsehoods... either consciously or subconsciously.

[Snipsky]

Wu De is missing a letter i think. I've heard "wu... det was some gooooood sh1t!" :D

[David Jamieson]

Wude? Everyone is a fraud and lying to themselves and perpetuating falsehoods... either consciously or subconsciously.

pffft. speak for yourself.
You don't know anything about anyone else.

[David Jamieson]

westerners like wu de as long as it is an optional suggestion, or an ambiguous guideline to improve your life as a middleclass office worker.

I'm gonna have you deported you ungrateful skunk.

[bawang]

im scare pls no

[David Jamieson]

im scare pls no

give me fajitas from taco bell and ill call off the dogs.

seriously, taco bell beats the crap out of kfc now!

[bawang]

i think david ross has wu de.

give me fajitas from taco bell and ill call off the dogs.


dont call off your dogs. i havent eaten for 2 days.

[Snipsky]

I like womins who have Bu De.

[David Jamieson]

i think david ross has wu de.


dont call off your dogs. i havent eaten for 2 days.

I think he has a lacuna in his brain.

You leave my dogs alone. Wait, they're hungrier than you!

and eat something, quit dropping e and going to those crappy raves.

[Lucas]

I will join bawang to devour your dogs. I have spicy pepper sauce ready

[SPJ]

wu and de are actually 2 characters/words.

wu is fighting

de is character/personalities/ethics

we may practice fighting methods

we may cultivate our characters

as 2 separate things

ethics about life in general and not just about or surrounding fighting alone.

:)

[David Jamieson]

wu and de are actually 2 characters/words.

wu is fighting

de is character/personalities/ethics

we may practice fighting methods

we may cultivate our characters

as 2 separate things

ethics about life in general and not just about or surrounding fighting alone.

:)


I think it's understood that ethics do not only apply to fighting.

I think it's also understood that despite them being two characters, that in context they are ONE meaning when combined.

[SPJ]

wu de

the most important ones are zhong and yi

1 zhong loyalty

2. yi justice/fairness

the representative examples are yei fei and guan yun chang

guan switched loyalty from cao cao to liu bei and never went back. but he did let cao cao go as yi example.

so business people worship guan gong.

yei fei was loyal to southern song.

---

[SPJ]

sheep and wolf analogy

civilians are sheep

soldiers, warlords are wolves

---