Training/fighting in a rule set

[ShaolinDan]

"If you can't fight within a rule set, then you're sure going to be in trouble when there isn't one."

I've been seeing a lot of versions of this statement, coming up in the dreadful MMA vs. TCMA battles that go on here, and I wanted to bring attention to it.

Here is the problem I see...Yes, if you train Martial Arts you should be able to handle yourself under any sparring rule set, HOWEVER, you will never handle yourself as well as someone who trains for that particular rule set (unless you're just incredibly awesome :p).

A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set.

Just as an MMA guy should be able to box, but in a boxing rule set, he's not going to be as good as the competitive boxer.

He won't be winning any TKD point sparring matches either...

To demand a level of skill in an MMA format from CMA's is fair...to demand the same level of skill you demand from an MMA is not fair.

If I keep 'wasting' afternoons training with a spear, I'll never be able to keep up with the guy who trains for the ring... 'Course, my spear-work is bound to be better... :)

Well, just had to get that off my chest, thanks for reading. :)

[bawang]

"if"



hjhjhjhjhhj

[SimonM]

If you really want to master the spear though you should be getting together with like-minded spear users to do resistive drills using staffs or boffer spears or something though.

I mean, I'm like that with the Jian, I love me a good fencing match. It's still the same principle. If you want to learn to do the thing you have to do it as close to real as possible.

[ShaolinDan]

If you really want to master the spear though you should be getting together with like-minded spear users to do resistive drills using staffs or boffer spears or something though.

I mean, I'm like that with the Jian, I love me a good fencing match. It's still the same principle. If you want to learn to do the thing you have to do it as close to real as possible.

Well, I just started with the spear recently...solo work is fine for me for now...I just said spear 'cause it's what I was doing right before I came online...

Anyway, not many (if any) posters on here (including me) who don't think you should train (close to) full-contact with an MMA type rule set once in a while, but to win at MMA you have to train that rule set practically all the time.

I just don't think it's sensible to ask TCMA guys to post vids of themselves winning MMA matches... Or to say they obviously can't fight if they can't win in that venue...

Things are more complicated than that, there are lot's of different kinds of fights. :)

[SimonM]

Getting hung up on the rules set is a trap.

The specifics of the rules really don't matter. If you are happier with san da / shuai jiao rules do that. If you are happier with no rules at all use none. What matters is training your skills against something harder than air.

It isn't about rules. If you think the debate is rules vs no rules you have set up a false dichotomy

It's about training to fight vs. training to do an elaborate ritual dance.

Which do you want to do? When you decide do that.

[ShaolinDan]

Ahh well, this is what always happens... You, Simon, have too much skill with the written English language to misread me like that... there's no excuse for you. :p

I don't think the debate is about rules or no rules...I'm just pointing out that to win in a competitive venue you have to train specifically for that venue, and MMA is one of those venues. That's all. :)

[David Jamieson]

Hi ShaolinDan-

You noticed that little strawman argument too eh? lol

When Alex Gong (rip) was shot and killed I wonder if he thought he should have trained for the street instead?

Yes, it is a meaningless thing to say that those prone to giving buy in to cliches will be just fine with.

Of course, it's a crock because reality actually dictates that the most dangerous killers don't do much training at all.

Many of these mentally lacking individuals who spout such thing are lacking a firm grasp of reality and have somehow come to believe that only mma training in a ufc type of atmosphere prepares people for real conflict.

That is about as far from truth as anyone can get without overlapping back onto their own crap. lol

But hey, if it gets some guy into the gym, so be it. Sell em whatever line you want I guess. It does seem to be about selling something.

[faxiapreta]

Of course, it's a crock because reality actually dictates that the most dangerous killers don't do much training at all.


Be sure to mention that to the military and special forces, Swat Teams, and police departments.

Whowuddathunk they could not have to go through training and still be dangerous to those opposing them.

Only in the kung fu bizarro world will you hear fantasy statements like this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"If you can't fight within a rule set, then you're sure going to be in trouble when there isn't one."

I've been seeing a lot of versions of this statement, coming up in the dreadful MMA vs. TCMA battles that go on here, and I wanted to bring attention to it.

Here is the problem I see...Yes, if you train Martial Arts you should be able to handle yourself under any sparring rule set, HOWEVER, you will never handle yourself as well as someone who trains for that particular rule set (unless you're just incredibly awesome :p).

A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set.

Just as an MMA guy should be able to box, but in a boxing rule set, he's not going to be as good as the competitive boxer.

He won't be winning any TKD point sparring matches either...

To demand a level of skill in an MMA format from CMA's is fair...to demand the same level of skill you demand from an MMA is not fair.

If I keep 'wasting' afternoons training with a spear, I'll never be able to keep up with the guy who trains for the ring... 'Course, my spear-work is bound to be better... :)

Well, just had to get that off my chest, thanks for reading. :)

Actually, while you bring out a valid point, it only goes as far has highly SPECIALISED rule sets and doesn't apply to MMA or:

If you are a striker it doesn't apply to MT / KB or any striking systems that is full contact.
If you are a grappler it doesn't apply to submission grappling.

The simple fact is that the once you state that you are "too deadly" for sport fighting or that you train for the "real fighting", you then should be able to function in a limited and controlled environment.
Notice I didn't say WIN, but you should at least "hold your own".

[sanjuro_ronin]

On a side note, even NOW you can still find a venue that will cater to YOUR ruleset.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think the debate is about rules or no rules...I'm just pointing out that to win in a competitive venue you have to train specifically for that venue, and MMA is one of those venues. That's all. :)

Of course, that is only logical.
YET, like I mentioned above, one can easily find the ruleset that most closely resembles the type of "fighting" one trains for.

[SimonM]

Of course, that is only logical.
YET, like I mentioned above, one can easily find the ruleset that most closely resembles the type of "fighting" one trains for.

Which, linguistic chicanery aside, was sort of my point too. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

The whole point is NOT about ruleset anyways.
The whole point is that, if one can't be effective within an environment that is designed for a "level playing field", how do you expect to be effective on a non-level playing field?
The issue is that.
If you can't beat a guy when all he can do is punch and kick, and that is your specialty, how will you beat him when he outweights you by 50lbs AND can do anything he wants?

[brothernumber9]

To a degree the point is very much about rule sets.
Many, if not most people, create rulesets for themselves, even in lethal situations. Some of us may have a rule to not kill, or to not maim. Some may have a rule that they will not continually attack a person down. Some have a rule that they will not attack first, etc. Some people actually don't have, or abide by any rules, I just don't think such people are the majority.
I believe common sense, morality, and even logic play into peoples' own rules about violence. I think most of us will relent at some point. Maybe I'm wrong. But these figurative lines in the sand marginalize what our own rules are in a given situation.

[David Jamieson]

The whole point is NOT about ruleset anyways.
The whole point is that, if one can't be effective within an environment that is designed for a "level playing field", how do you expect to be effective on a non-level playing field?
The issue is that.
If you can't beat a guy when all he can do is punch and kick, and that is your specialty, how will you beat him when he outweights you by 50lbs AND can do anything he wants?

Well having read Sun Tzu, and still referencing him regularly, you don't want to be on a level playing field. You want to be superior in every way.

contests like sports combat have as much value as a movie or going out to a car race.

No one can say they will be effective in a 50/50 environment.

But the USA can expect to walk into Libya and put it under the gun inside of a short period of time.

Superiority negates the conditions where competition is seen as a way.

In martial arts competition produces a false sense of what the real meaning of martial arts is. That is to say to defeat your opponent in as quick a manner as possible.

If my opponent is stronger and greater than I, then I must resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

competition? It's martial, not contest for who get's a belt.

I want the guy to be down and out. I may not want to kill him, But I'm not going to compete with him, I will seek out the superior way to defeat his ass and use it pronto.

what's not to get?

[ShaolinDan]

Actually, while you bring out a valid point, it only goes as far has highly SPECIALISED rule sets and doesn't apply to MMA or:

If you are a striker it doesn't apply to MT / KB or any striking systems that is full contact.
If you are a grappler it doesn't apply to submission grappling.

The simple fact is that the once you state that you are "too deadly" for sport fighting or that you train for the "real fighting", you then should be able to function in a limited and controlled environment.
Notice I didn't say WIN, but you should at least "hold your own".


"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

[faxiapreta]

Well having read Sun Tzu, and still referencing him regularly, you don't want to be on a level playing field. You want to be superior in every way.

contests like sports combat have as much value as a movie or going out to a car race.

No one can say they will be effective in a 50/50 environment.

But the USA can expect to walk into Libya and put it under the gun inside of a short period of time.

Superiority negates the conditions where competition is seen as a way.

In martial arts competition produces a false sense of what the real meaning of martial arts is. That is to say to defeat your opponent in as quick a manner as possible.

If my opponent is stronger and greater than I, then I must resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

competition? It's martial, not contest for who get's a belt.

I want the guy to be down and out. I may not want to kill him, But I'm not going to compete with him, I will seek out the superior way to defeat his ass and use it pronto.

what's not to get?

This is exactly what happens when someone who has never competed tries to pontificate about competition.

Competition is all about superiority. The main strategy for most competitors is to develop superiority by playing to their own strengths, minimizing their own weaknesses, exploiting their opponents' weaknesses, and avoiding their opponents' strengths.

Anyone who has competed knows that the idea is to overpower the opponent with your superiority as fast as possible.

[Lucas]

as we can see, even from sanshou champions, transfering to mma takes some time and effort to do so successfully. adjusting to the rules can take time.

[David Jamieson]

"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

That "im too deadly for sport" thing is another strawman brought to you by the same people who think your kung fu is BS.

they are of course wrong.

Most mma guys can't hold their own in fencing. They totally suck at it and look like fools flailing around with the epee.

Most mma guys can't deal with a forms competition. Mostly because they haven't invested any time into learning them and certainly don't practice them.

Most mma guys haven't got a clue of how to properly beat someone with a rattan staff. they don't know how to employ an entering strategy against one either and wind up all covered in welts when they try.

See how stupid it looks when you reverse the context?

yeah, the fluffy little cloud says "yeah". :p

[faxiapreta]

as we can see, even from sanshou champions, transfering to mma takes some time and effort to do so successfully. adjusting to the rules can take time.

It's not about adjusting the rules, it's about developing the skills needed to compete with the increased skills of the opponents who compete under that rule set.

[David Jamieson]

^ I wonder if moron above has bumped hip to the fact he's on my ignore list. lol

Hiya goofball, I can't read your vitriol, so best shove it up your ass instead. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well having read Sun Tzu, and still referencing him regularly, you don't want to be on a level playing field. You want to be superior in every way.

contests like sports combat have as much value as a movie or going out to a car race.

No one can say they will be effective in a 50/50 environment.

But the USA can expect to walk into Libya and put it under the gun inside of a short period of time.

Superiority negates the conditions where competition is seen as a way.

In martial arts competition produces a false sense of what the real meaning of martial arts is. That is to say to defeat your opponent in as quick a manner as possible.

If my opponent is stronger and greater than I, then I must resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

competition? It's martial, not contest for who get's a belt.

I want the guy to be down and out. I may not want to kill him, But I'm not going to compete with him, I will seek out the superior way to defeat his ass and use it pronto.

what's not to get?

What's not to get?
That the opponent will also:
resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

YOU brought it up, YOU tell US.

[faxiapreta]

That "im too deadly for sport" thing is another strawman brought to you by the same people who think your kung fu is BS.

they are of course wrong.

Most mma guys can't hold their own in fencing. They totally suck at it and look like fools flailing around with the epee.

Most mma guys can't deal with a forms competition. Mostly because they haven't invested any time into learning them and certainly don't practice them.

Most mma guys haven't got a clue of how to properly beat someone with a rattan staff. they don't know how to employ an entering strategy against one either and wind up all covered in welts when they try.

See how stupid it looks when you reverse the context?


A fencer who could not fence full out would never be as good as one who simply did fencing in the air or with a compliant partner.

A forms competitor who didn't actually go through the forms would never be able to compete with a forms competitor who practiced the forms as they would be performed in a competitive setting.

The person who only does drills and forms with the staff will never be as good as the person who does full contact training with the staff.

The argument stands in any activity from chess to running to swimming to fighting.

[SimonM]

Familliarity with rules in a competition certainly make a difference. Back when I was fighting I got talked into doing a strongman competition, only the unscrupulous person who convinced me to do it misled me, said it was an NHB event (he knew I was a grappler). I trained a lot of grappling, a bit of boxing and kicking, expecing that sort of event and, yeah, I got moked.

But that's not the argument that's being set up. The argument is one of validity.

We can approach validity from two perspectives - the first is the question of the wholistic validity of an art. That gets complicated because people approach art for a multitude of reasons and an artist who has no interest in fighting needs not learn how to fight to have validity.

For wholistic validity what really matters is self-truth, self-honesty and enough introspection to understand the reasons why a person has come to an art.

The second perspective is one of martial validity. This is a small sub-set of validity within the art but, as many people who come to martial arts are concerned with it, martial validity sometimes eclipses wholistic validity.

To be martially valid an art must be tested. "Sportive Combat" is one way to test this validity. It's not the only way but it is a good way.

The biggest trap we all fall into on occasion is to conflate wholistic validity with martial validity. When a TCMAist does this it often becomes a matter of defending martial validity because it is seen as necessary for the art to be valid wholistically.

When an anti-TCMAist does this it often becomes a matter of maligning wholistic validity because of a perceived lack of martial validity.

And both of these perspectives make me want to chew nails. If martial validity matters to you, it doesn't matter what style of martial art you do, find some partners and spar!

Honestly the Boffer LARPers may be better fighters than some weapon users who never develop tools to practice their weapons in a resistive environment.

If martial validity doesn't matter to you follow your passion. If anybody attacks you for being in an art for general health benefits, for spiritual practice, for aesthetics or out of a sense of cultural appreciation I'd be one of the first to jump to your defense! But don't sink to the level of those who would conflate your experience, the reasons you do your art, with their own.

[David Jamieson]

I have a boxing record, I wrestled through HS.

It just ain't the same/same.

Judo is fun to compete in.

Putting an argument up to try and force Kung Fu people to train like mma as if that will make any difference is just a whiney little mugs excuse to get away from teh fact that he doesn't belong in a kung fu forum if he wants to play mma.

you can get stuff from mma training for your fighting, but, you get it from kung fu too.

You don't have to compete, but you can.

These guys that hold one model over another are just stupid plain and simple.
They can't understand how is it possible that there are many paths and that there is lot about martial arts that is interesting, not just ring fighting.

It's just the dumbest argument to be put forth. It's highly assumptive for one thing.

If you are going to enter into a venue, the YOU TRAIN TO THAT VENUE.

don't ask a hobby guy who wants to learn butterfly knives to fall in line with mma training, That is brain dead and simply a stupid line of reasoning.

If someone says: I wanna fight like Randy Couture, then it is good advice to send that person to go train in such a manner that he can do that. Why should he learn a form? Why should he learn Lion dance? Why should he learn a cultural style? Why should he learn how to handle a sword? It doesn't make sense.

Same as it doesn't make sense to try to proclaim that mma is the only way for martial arts. It's not, it won't be.

mma is it's own thing. you can do it, or not. It's not better or worse than kung fu practice, it is what it is.

I guess some people are TOO STUPID to understand that and their little tiny pea sized over concussed cell mass they call a brain gets overloaded at the very idea of people and pursuits being different, not to mention the literally hundreds of ways to skin a cat.

lol

[faxiapreta]

I have a boxing record, I wrestled through HS.

It just ain't the same/same.

Judo is fun to compete in.

Putting an argument up to try and force Kung Fu people to train like mma as if that will make any difference is just a whiney little mugs excuse to get away from teh fact that he doesn't belong in a kung fu forum if he wants to play mma.

you can get stuff from mma training for your fighting, but, you get it from kung fu too.

You don't have to compete, but you can.

These guys that hold one model over another are just stupid plain and simple.
They can't understand how is it possible that there are many paths and that there is lot about martial arts that is interesting, not just ring fighting.

It's just the dumbest argument to be put forth. It's highly assumptive for one thing.

If you are going to enter into a venue, the YOU TRAIN TO THAT VENUE.

don't ask a hobby guy who wants to learn butterfly knives to fall in line with mma training, That is brain dead and simply a stupid line of reasoning.

If someone says: I wanna fight like Randy Couture, then it is good advice to send that person to go train in such a manner that he can do that. Why should he learn a form? Why should he learn Lion dance? Why should he learn a cultural style? Why should he learn how to handle a sword? It doesn't make sense.

Same as it doesn't make sense to try to proclaim that mma is the only way for martial arts. It's not, it won't be.

mma is it's own thing. you can do it, or not. It's not better or worse than kung fu practice, it is what it is.

I guess some people are TOO STUPID to understand that and their little tiny pea sized over concussed cell mass they call a brain gets overloaded at the very idea of people and pursuits being different, not to mention the literally hundreds of ways to skin a cat.

lol

Actually, the reality is that the people with the pea brains are the ones who feel so threatened by the MMA model that they fail to recognize that the MMA model proponents (also known as the MMA trolls by those who are so insecure and feel threatened) make no arguments with the CMA crowd who wants to do lion dances and jump around like bugs.

Most of the time it is the insecure CMA crowd who bring up the whole comparison to MMA. Often they claim to have boxing, wrestling, or BJJ backgrounds when it is abundantly clear they do not.

What the insecure CMA crowd refuses/pretends not to recognize is that the pro-MMA crowd simply wants evidence when the insecure CMA crowd makes claims as to their methods affecting fighting ability.

I think most of the MMA supporters will happily say, "Dance around and pretend to fight as much as you want," but we will ask for evidence when the claims of that dancing turns to claims of being better than or as good as "just a sport with rules."

[SimonM]

Notwithstanding that I think a lot of people here question your right to attack their history. Pretty much everybody here has at least some sort of a background in the martial arts.

You've all but indicated that you are a spectator only. I think some of the hostility that you have felt comes from the fact that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Dragonzbane76]

train how you wanna train, what ever that venue be. Who cares what some people on the net think. State it and leave it. This fuking horse is dead. ;)

[David Jamieson]

train how you wanna train, what ever that venue be. Who cares what some people on the net think. State it and leave it. This fuking horse is dead. ;)

the fact you think this horse is dead is...wait.. you're right. :p

[goju]

This is exactly what happens when someone who has never competed tries to pontificate about competition.

Competition is all about superiority. The main strategy for most competitors is to develop superiority by playing to their own strengths, minimizing their own weaknesses, exploiting their opponents' weaknesses, and avoiding their opponents' strengths.

Anyone who has competed knows that the idea is to overpower the opponent with your superiority as fast as possible.

^^This this this

[wenshu]

This is exactly what happens when someone who has never competed tries to pontificate about competition.

Competition is all about superiority. The main strategy for most competitors is to develop superiority by playing to their own strengths, minimizing their own weaknesses, exploiting their opponents' weaknesses, and avoiding their opponents' strengths.

Anyone who has competed knows that the idea is to overpower the opponent with your superiority as fast as possible.

They have competitive Hot Pocket eating now?

[David Jamieson]

^^This this this

is nonsense nonsense nonsense.

because of: provenance which means equality in weight classes

sport fighting eliminates superiority.

except where one guy doesn't belong, otherwise, an unequal race is boring to watch.

Superiority= guy brings gun to knife fight. No sport about it at all.

That's not to say that Kung Fu isn't trained just for fitness. It addresses a lot of maybes and probables in scenarios and settings, concepts etc. It drills, it does a lot of the same things you'll find anywhere else. It is simply different and it isn't likely to change over to the modality these chaps seem to be advocating. Which is another thing altogether.

[HumbleWCGuy]

My general thought is that it is necessary to train with some rules in order to avoid permanent injury. Also, training with rules allows the action to be faster and harder which helps people to develop timing. Moreover, this type of training encourages attribute training.

Having said that, most sport oriented schools train with more rules than they need. You can certainly train in real time and pull hair, groin kick, or work weapons. With a little more equipment, you can also train eye jabs and and such in real time. The sport schools tend to forgo that sort of training and assume that they will do it all when the time comes which just isn't the case.

People have this idea that training to fight with less rules is always LARPING and training with timing and power is purely the domain of schools that tend to run a lot of guys to smokers. Neither is true and I get tired of hearing it.

Bottom line if you are only training to the rules of a sport or doing slow motion LARPING, your school has a problem. Ideally, a school should be striving to do as much in real time as possible even if that expands beyond the domain of competition. All things being equal, a person who has trained to go beyond competition rules in real time has an advantage over a strict competition fighter.

I don't want to down play the competition experience though. There is something to going into a ring or cage in front of God and everybody where there is no retreat or surrender. But, let's also not pretend that a school has all the answers just because it tends to run guys to smokers regularly.

[goju]

is nonsense nonsense nonsense.

because of: provenance which means equality in weight classes

Have you ever trained in a fighters camp? There's an assortment of guys bigger than you and smaller than you to spar therefore preparing you to fight size differences. if you are attacked outside of the ring

[David Jamieson]

Have you ever trained in a fighters camp? There's an assortment of guys bigger than you and smaller than you to spar therefore preparing you to fight size differences. if you are attacked outside of the ring

I've trained in a lot of different scenarios. With people of all sorts of shapes and sizes and levels of skill.

Bottom line is that when you are in it, you're in it and it has everything to do with that and nothing to do with this.

all fighters camps are not the same.
all training halls are not the same.
but, it's a safe bet if you train to a venue, that's what you train to.

even in places where the skillsets taught are wide, if members are going to actively compete they train in a different fashion than others. Especially in a Kung Fu school that gets involved in san shou for instance.

mma is mma. It's not traditional chinese martial arts and one doesn't diminish the other. You have to go train in mma if that's what you desire and if you want to learn traditional chinese martial arts, you won't find it there.

that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[Lucas]

mma is mma. It's not traditional chinese martial arts and one doesn't diminish the other. You have to go train in mma if that's what you desire and if you want to learn traditional chinese martial arts, you won't find it there.



i know some people dont like you or what ever, but this is just plain truth here.

besides, people kill people with guns, not fists.

[Yum Cha]

I think the error is to always take it back to style. To me its about weight and power. Being able to make a totally committed move, with full weight and power. So often, the only difference between a 'deadly' move and a standard one is an adjustment, using a finger or phoenix instead of a fist, or targeting a more vulnerable point in the same region, stuff like that. You can do a lot with body protection and gloves, head hunting becomes a field in itself.

This is where you gain from full contact experience, live sparring, but it doesn't have to be MMA, or even without rules. If you never train to pull your strikes, you strike hard. I find that hitting isn't the problem. Getting into proper range, having the right timing, anticipation and footwork more important in making an excellent fighter from a good one, or even a poor one. Ringcraft. This is why I like 'live' practice, but I also like controlled practice too. Building the components towards a complete fighter.

The "Straw Man" or the 'begged question", depending on your point of view, is that MMA is the only way to get this training, because a lot of good fighers come from MMA (?). A lot of good fighters go into MMA too...

The proof of the pudding has to be in the taste. How well does a student defend themselves on the street, and in what manner. My boys have always done as advertised when attacked on the street, dropping the opponent in seconds and getting away, or almost....one guy got caught by bouncers and accused of being the culprit, but the other guys's knife was out and chained to his belt, so it kinda gave it away.

You fight like you train, end story. In real fights street violence you almost never see the opponent until they hit you, two guys squaring off outside a bar....pulllleeeeze, a couple of hard guy wankers hardly represent, its almost always fast and furious, and by surprise.

[Lucas]

its almost always fast and furious, and by surprise.

yep. in almost every fight ive seen or been involved in one party was thoroughly suprised for at least a moment. most people have got into a fight and didnt even have any idea wtf was going on until the fight was over, as to the who and why. sometimes you dont find out.

and in your post you really just nail it imo. if you train to deal with violence, and to deal violence, then you do. to one degree or another you will deal with it.. in real life, thats all that matters. is competition important? i believe so. but there is also no need to try and make a career out of it.


as for mma or tma...you know i really laugh, all this time on this forum ive seen all these arguments and debates about tma, mma, cma, etc.. there has been a lot of traffic here over the years, and it always just makes me want to lower my head, close my eyes and shake my head. there really is no point. the more you learn and figure things out the more you realize that. you will never see me take a side and say cma is better than this or that or mma is better than this or that, because thats not the reality of the situation. now...which one do i think is cooler..totally different question. kungfu, no contest. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA, as it WAS in the past ie: a testing venue was great.
It was a way to put what you know to the test in an environment as close as possible to the "real thing".
It lose that when it became "something else".
I disagree that TCMA is not MMA.
TCMA is the original MMA mindset, we see that in the history of all those systems that are combination of other systems.
What TCMA is NOT is the MMA that most here have come to dislike and that is the marketing of the MMA sport.

Most TMA want more out of their system then just "self defense" and they don't see that in the MMA that is marketed to the masses.
Of course if you got to a MMA gym you will see what you typically see in most any MA dojo:
People of all types doing MA for various reasons.

What gives MMA a bad name in TMA are those MMA nutriders that seem to want to make it clear that if you are not doing MMA, you are doing something inferiour and that is incorrect.

That said, one can't deny the effect that MMA has had in the world of MA and to attempt to do so makes no sense.

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/N5nW4.jpg

[wenshu]

http://www.foreskinman.com/images/foreskin-man-no-1-front-cover-400.jpg

[Northwind]

Although I am totally not getting the foreskin joke, those images are hella funny.

[Ray Pina]

Something to consider:

If you love baseball, devote your time to it, you may be in an organized league. You may play pick up games with friends. You may play stick ball with your nephews. Soft ball at the company picnic.... you enjoy swinging your bat at pitches. Fielding hits. Etc.

If you are a chessman, consider yourself good, you seek out games with other likeminded players.... to compare. To demonstrate your knowledge but also to learn, expose your own weakness.


Whatever venue it may be martial artists should be striking, throwing, sweeping, submitting and generally "fighting" with other like minded people. Yes, there's room for everything else. But what separates martial arts from Yoga and dance in the fighting.

Youtube Kung FU champion 2010 and Youtube MMA champion 2010... that demonstrates the huge reality gap.

[wenshu]

Flinch in the ring?

Flinch in the street.

[Snipsky]

Youtube Kung FU champion 2010 and Youtube MMA champion 2010... that demonstrates the huge reality gap.

I think if the above would have been done along time ago, we wouldn't be arguing about this today. What an eye opener right there. So simply stated, so effectively received. Nice job.

[Northwind]

I think if the above would have been done along time ago, we wouldn't be arguing about this today. What an eye opener right there. So simply stated, so effectively received. Nice job.

Assuming Youtube and competitive sport fighting are the only validation tests, one simply must agree to this BTDT idea.

[David Jamieson]

SR - You disagree that tcma isn't mma. But nobody said that.

I said, if you go to an mma club, you will not find traditional chinese martial arts there, but vice versa may very well be the opposite.

I know HW 108 or whoever the bi-polar troll monkey is hates me.
I figure it has to be because I'm right.

bwahahahahaha.

Hey you know what I don't do? I don't use my fingerless gloves for bagwork.
You know what else I don't do, I don't go to sailboat forums and start talking about cruise ships. :p

[ShaolinDan]

This is not a thread about TMA vs. MMA.
This is not a thread about whether or not martial artists should spar full contact.

It's a thread about one reason why it's not sensible to ask for video of people's full contact competitive fights every time they make a post about technique...

At least that was my humble intention... :)

If you really need another TMA vs. MMA thread, go ahead and have fun. maybe I'll chime in. But, "All the dude really wants is his rug back." (er I mean, to be able to talk kung fu without having to talk MMA all the time.)

[Lucas]

This is not a thread about TMA vs. MMA.
This is not a thread about whether or not martial artists should spar full contact.

It's a thread about one reason why it's not sensible to ask for video of people's full contact competitive fights every time they make a post about technique...

At least that was my humble intention... :)

If you really need another TMA vs. MMA thread, go ahead and have fun. maybe I'll chime in. But, "All the dude really wants is his rug back." (er I mean, to be able to talk kung fu without having to talk MMA all the time.)

do you have a vid of a full contact fight to proove to me that is what this thread is about? :p

[Snipsky]

BTDT idea

sorry, what is that?

[Northwind]

...snip... "All the dude really wants is his rug back." (er I mean, to be able to talk kung fu without having to talk MMA all the time.)

That's all the majority of tcma folks on here want...Could you imagine one in depth thread about TCMA where that's all it was? No mma folks butting in with their insults, prove-its, placebos, youtubes, etc.? Only in our dreams my friend, only in our dreams.

[Northwind]

sorry, what is that?

Been There, Done That
Things that have been discussed, argued, ranted, debated, etc. about over and over again until all of the regulars who've been here a while are extremely tired of it - and all of that content is still available to search and read through...

[Lucas]

the internal forum is the secret hiding spot to avoid mma derailers! they never make it through a TGY post!

[ShaolinDan]

the internal forum is the secret hiding spot to avoid mma derailers! they never make it through a TGY post!

Yes, but neither do I. :D

[Snipsky]

Been There, Done That
Things that have been discussed, argued, ranted, debated, etc. about over and over again until all of the regulars who've been here a while are extremely tired of it - and all of that content is still available to search and read through...

Thanks, i was wracking whatever i have for a brain which isn't much for an answer to that. So, yeah, i agree. the whole subject is old.

[David Jamieson]

I made it through a TGY post once.

I lost 300 of my expeditionary forces, 80 head of camel, 6 horses and 5 ox carts by the time I was finished.

Several of the char women had died by the time I understood what it said.

A TGY post is not something to be taken lightly.
If you read it whilst on the loo, surely you'll suffer an aneurysm if you read 6 multi-syllabic words in a row while pushing a turd.

true story!

also, black bears died.

[Northwind]

Now it's your turn to help me - what is TGY?

Here's what I found:
The Grave Yard
Todd Gregory Young
The Golden Years
The Growing Years
The Guradian Years
Tryptone Glucose Yeast
Twenty Good Years
Ten Great Years
The Global Youth
The Great Years
Terasil Golden Yellow
The Glory Years
The Guevarist Years

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a thread about one reason why it's not sensible to ask for video of people's full contact competitive fights every time they make a post about technique...

Personally I think that is one of the silliest things to ever rear its head on forums.
But you know what?
Ridiculous claims call for ridiculous conditions.
If someone claims something that can easily be proven on video, in this day and age, there is no reason NOT to show it.

[ShaolinDan]

Personally I think that is one of the silliest things to ever rear its head on forums.
But you know what?
Ridiculous claims call for ridiculous conditions.
If someone claims something that can easily be proven on video, in this day and age, there is no reason NOT to show it.

Of course, Sanjuro. But also you are one of the people who's been using the original argument that made me start this thread. :):D:p:o

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course, Sanjuro. But also you are one of the people who's been using the original argument that made me start this thread. :):D:p:o

Because the argument is valid, the video thing is just trolling.
The arguement is a vaild one:
If you can pull of something under the best of circumstances, what makes you think you can pull it off under the worse?
And that is what too many people state when they say:
I don't train for the ring ( where its safe), I train for the street ( where it's dangerous).
I point out that if you can't make it work where its safe, its less likely to work were its dangerous.
And there is ample evidence of that.

[ShaolinDan]

The ring is not the best of circumstances...the guy in the ring is far more skilled than the guy in the street. In my short life I have been able to absolutely toy with some people...others can absolutely toy with me. I probably won't beat the guy in the ring, but I can certainly beat a lot more guys than I could before I started training.

how do you prove a technique can work on video, for this crowd? Have someone attack you all out over and over until you pull off the one specific technique you happened to mention on a thread 'cause you thought someone might appreciate it?


I do spar, and have been ever since I was a little kid...however, I don't do it three times a week and I know I'm not up to a competition level. And I don't videotape it...that's not why I do it.

I've also been in several fights (though none since I started kung fu, and most as a kid). I've also been in several real self-defense situations (not as a kid)...nothing like being in a fight...not the same thing at all. Also none since I started kung fu.

[Best thing about training martial arts, ANY martial art, is that you no longer get chosen as a target...not 'cause anyone knows you train, but because your carriage tells them to chose someone else.]

Now, as someone who has an idea of the dynamics of fighting, I feel capable of judging a technique for myself...I don't need someone else to prove it for me.

As someone who's not an amazing fighter or athlete (to say the least), I also know there are plenty of techniques which work...but not for me. My teacher can do things I can't do...should I never share things he's taught me, just because I can't do them? I have some big brothers in law enforcement and they sure seem to find what he teaches useful...No video of them in action either. Do you really want to make video mandatory for sharing?

Why not use your own experience as the criteria instead? And why make a fuss...if you see a problem state it, let your problem be addressed...if you have a problem with the answer, reply to that...no need for a video to prove...lack of video proves nothing. Be here to learn/discuss, not to police the learning/discussion for others...we can police our own learning, and if we can't, well, that's evolution, baby. Let it go.

[David Jamieson]

Now it's your turn to help me - what is TGY?

Here's what I found:
The Grave Yard
Todd Gregory Young
The Golden Years
The Growing Years
The Guradian Years
Tryptone Glucose Yeast
Twenty Good Years
Ten Great Years
The Global Youth
The Great Years
Terasil Golden Yellow
The Glory Years
The Guevarist Years

it's Tai Gak Yin (sp?) KFM's PT and competitive erudition contender.
aka Chris...

[Lucas]

He's one of them learned folk

[ShaolinDan]

also...I know you don't want to admit it, but the ring is not the street.
An ma who spends all his time training for the ring will beat the ma who only spends part of his time training for the ring...in the ring.

If weapons are involved, you use a longer guard...if multiple opponents are involved, mobility is much more important than ground fighting...if if if. In my school we train for everything...maybe we won't be the best at anything, but it certainly keeps it interesting...

I remember once arguing with Knifefighter about the validity of the standing armbar...he said it's cr*p, then I see a dog bros. vid he posted where 1/4 of techs shown are armbars...he says, well, dynamics of knife fight are diff then MMA fight. No sh*t...that's the point. You can't be the best at one if you learn both...but really, for survival and for fun, it's better to learn both. So sorry, I'll never have a vid of my MMA fight.:p Actually I have plantar fascitis (sp?)...need my arch support, only full-contact venue I'll probably ever be able to enter is boxing...probably won't...does that really prove anything?

[David Jamieson]

also...I know you don't want to admit it, but the ring is not the street.
An ma who spends all his time training for the ring will beat the ma who only spends part of his time training for the ring...in the ring.

If weapons are involved, you use a longer guard...if multiple opponents are involved, mobility is much more important than ground fighting...if if if. In my school we train for everything...maybe we won't be the best at anything, but it certainly keeps it interesting...

I remember once arguing with Knifefighter about the validity of the standing armbar...he said it's cr*p, then I see a dog bros. vid he posted where 1/4 of techs shown are armbars...he says, well, dynamics of knife fight are diff then MMA fight. No sh*t...that's the point. You can't be the best at one if you learn both...but really, for survival and for fun, it's better to learn both. So sorry, I'll never have a vid of my MMA fight.:p Actually I have plantar fascitis (sp?)...need my arch support, only full-contact venue I'll probably ever be able to enter is boxing...probably won't...does that really prove anything?


knifefighter wasn't ever a knifefighter. he's a blowhard with a short guy complex

[faxiapreta]

That's all the majority of tcma folks on here want...Could you imagine one in depth thread about TCMA where that's all it was? No mma folks butting in with their insults, prove-its, placebos, youtubes, etc.? Only in our dreams my friend, only in our dreams.

That's easy. Simply don't bring up MMA. Of course that never happens because the TCMA crowd can't seem to not bring it up. Of course, after they bring it up and show their wrong assumption, they have to complain when the MMA crowd tries to explain that they really don't know what they are talking about.

[goju]

also...I know you don't want to admit it, but the ring is not the street.
An ma who spends all his time training for the ring will beat the ma who only spends part of his time training for the ring...in the ring.

But the techniques you work in the ring are high percentage regardless of where you are using them for one and two your training them against guys who are highly skilled.Youre assuming the ring fighter wont be able to adapt to these situations.

I think they have a far better chance to do it than someone whos doing his deadly techniques in the air and doing all these unrealistic scenarios that are so far removed from the reality of street fighting.


I spend my time training in a ring style fashion and haven't seen it negatively affect me when ive had to defend myself in a f street ight.


If anything the fact that i grew up in a bad neighbour hood taught me the most as far as street confrontations go.I learned how to be savvy and avoid trouble since trouble was always around.Going to a kwoon and working on these "street drills" wasn't going to do a **** thing for me.

[ShaolinDan]

You people continue to amaze me. Some of you are so smart and serious, SJ, G, yet you continue to pretend to who? that you can use the same techniques against a guy with a knife as you can in a sportfight...If you are in a sport fight, absorbing blows while moving in to finish works...absorbing knives is more difficult...this means you change your guard and blocking methods... (If you believe Knifefighter, standing joint locks suddenly become effective too) Grappling changes drastically when a knife's involved... Psychological situation changes drastically too...

There are lots of skills to learn...everybody has their own path. some are specialists, others prefer to be inter-disciplinary...we can all learn from/assist each other.

The whole notion that kung fu practitioners spend all their training time doing strikes in the air is fallacious, which, when recognized, makes this whole endless and stupid debate an entirely moot point.

[goju]

I believe frost was the one who brought up a well regarded grappler whos knife defense was based on clinching and smothering( in other words what you learn in ring training gee! :eek:)


If we want to claim standing joint locks work again a grappling competitor has those too :eek:

Thats the whole issue YOU are not getting it you make it seem like shifting from the ring to street fighting is such an difficult task for these guys.:rolleyes:


Further it always involves the highest risk situation in the street scenario.Apparently all the time you get in a street fight the guy attacking you is brock lesnar and hes armed with a katana.:rolleyes:


Where are these drills and techniques that we that they are missing or would benefit from? There should be videos of them being demonstrated and in live environment too since you can test this safely with rubber knifes and guns

[Lucas]

all kungfu guys do is attack the air...

its an elaborately laid plan, put into implimentation many years ago, following on aspect of the art of war, we make ourselves appear to be weak and frail in the attempt to discount ourselves in the eyes and minds of our adversaries. As such we are able to appreciate the slight edge we may be able to entertain due to the fact our opponent has us underestimated.

oh wait, nevermind....im bull$hitting u

[ShaolinDan]

Thats the whole issue YOU are not getting it you make it seem like shifting from the ring to street fighting is such an difficult task for these guys.:rolleyes:


see that's the joke... all I've done is say that MMA is good and useful, but that while TCMA can benefit from MMA, they are not the same. That's all I've ever said and yet over and over I keep hearing responses to my comments on how TCMA is superior to MMA.

"You People" are so eager to find an argument, that you can't even read what's in front of you. And if I wasn't drinking tonight, I'd ignore you all...but this is my friday night(ah the life of a breakfast cook!). Anyway...you might be smart, but you can't read properly, because of your attachments...Sun Tzu would not approve.

[goju]

Because you're passive aggressively starting an argument.Some of you have a chip on your shoulder over MMA and construct this paranoid delusion that ends up turning into this us against them attitude even though you try to bang on how youre not doing it :rolleyes:

Of course ring fighting isnt street fighting but ring fighters are the best prepared to handle themselves outside of the ring out of all martial artists

[Lucas]

Because you're passive aggressively starting an argument.Some of you have a chip on your shoulder over MMA and construct this paranoid delusion that ends up turning into this us against them attitude even though you try to bang on how youre not doing it :rolleyes:

Of course ring fighting isnt street fighting but ring fighters are the best prepared to handle themselves outside of the ring out of all martial artists

unless its a gambling den with 3 armed men weilding handguns :p

sorry couldnt helmp myself bu ti would ahve survived that incident.

[ShaolinDan]

Hahahaha!!!

[Lucas]

and its not a mma vs tma thing i just simply cannot avoid easy set ups.

i know, if there is a hell, i'll probably get a invitation.

[ShaolinDan]

Because you're passive aggressively starting an argument.Some of you have a chip on your shoulder over MMA and construct this paranoid delusion that ends up turning into this us against them attitude even though you try to bang on how youre not doing it :rolleyes:

Of course ring fighting isnt street fighting but ring fighters are the best prepared to handle themselves outside of the ring out of all martial artists

I'm not HW108. You're projecting...My attitude is that MMA doesn't make kung fu invalid.

And no, I don't think ring fighters aren't the best prepared. Those who practice for 'ring fighting' (read full-contact sparring) in combination with training other useful skills are the best prepared...IMO.

[Lucas]

we are all in agreement here.

[ShaolinDan]

Sorry if I'm being tough...but I started this thread and so I feel responsible for it...usually I keep my mouth shut and just absorb. Not here.

I don't mind of you disagree with things I've said, but disagreeing with things you only imagine I've said is really more than I can bear (tonight anyway--tomorrow I will probably realize I should have just said my piece and ignored all responses :) )

[Northwind]

it's Tai Gak Yin (sp?) KFM's PT and competitive erudition contender.
aka Chris...

Ahhh Okay. lol I was just a wee-bit off the mark there eh? :P

[Northwind]

That's easy. Simply don't bring up MMA. Of course that never happens because the TCMA crowd can't seem to not bring it up. Of course, after they bring it up and show their wrong assumption, they have to complain when the MMA crowd tries to explain that they really don't know what they are talking about.

Totally @$$-backwards

[Northwind]

ShaolinDan, you gotta understand that the main crowd you're addressing will NEVER change their tune, regardless of what you say. It will always be insults, prove-its, placebos, youtubes, etc.

Even if you were able to do the impossible, of actually hiring a camera guy follow you around to record you for hours of nut-hugging-video-pleasure - these guys STILL would not be satisfied; they'd insult the video and you with all sorts of things.

You're fighting a silly battle with these people that unfortunately will never go away. The drive me batty from time to time too, but on my best moments I either ignore or just respond with silly banter.

[ShaolinDan]

I know, Northwind, but it's not really the trolls I'm trying to communicate with...It's the serious posters who come on with that attitude...they're the ones I'd hope would hear me--though in truth probably the same could be said for them...still, it's my duty as a Shaolin practitioner, I MUST be their MA messiah. lol :)

[goju]

unless its a gambling den with 3 armed men weilding handguns :p

sorry couldnt helmp myself bu ti would ahve survived that incident.

lol:D:D:D:D:D

[faxiapreta]

ShaolinDan, you gotta understand that the main crowd you're addressing will NEVER change their tune, regardless of what you say. It will always be insults, prove-its, placebos, youtubes, etc.

Even if you were able to do the impossible, of actually hiring a camera guy follow you around to record you for hours of nut-hugging-video-pleasure - these guys STILL would not be satisfied; they'd insult the video and you with all sorts of things.

You're fighting a silly battle with these people that unfortunately will never go away. The drive me batty from time to time too, but on my best moments I either ignore or just respond with silly banter.

Bulloney. Once again, for the umteenth time, you don't see the MMA guys criticizing the CMA people who actually provide some evidence for their claims.

And, once again for the thick headed people, it's mostly the CMA guys who are putting down their own brother CMA people when they show the clips of themselves or their students fighting.

We're not the ones saying, "Oh, they aren't internal practioners." That's the CMA crowd.

[faxiapreta]

Totally @$$-backwards

Nope... you are wrong again.

Do a search on MMA. You'll find in the majority of cases the MMA threads were started by the traditional crowd. For those threads that didn't start out as MMA, but veered off in that direction, you find that the same crowd were the first to post about it.

[Northwind]

Bulloney. Once again, for the umteenth time, you don't see the MMA guys criticizing the CMA people who actually provide some evidence for their claims.

Bull back atcha. Once again, for the umpteenth time, you don't see the CMA guys rolling into grappling forums and doing this crap to them. You're annoying anonymisimo, but at least you're fast. No swatting will make you go away. This is fun for you. Good for you.


And, once again for the thick headed people, it's mostly the CMA guys who are putting down their own brother CMA people when they show the clips of themselves or their students fighting.

And, once again for the annoying anonymisimos out there, please provide scientific evidence that this effect is not just placebo. I mean straw man. I mean...Umm...Oh, so now CMA people do put up videos? I thought they didn't.
Sorry, your intellect drowns me in my own sorrowful stupidity.


We're not the ones saying, "Oh, they aren't internal practioners." That's the CMA crowd.
Really? Okay. Then GTFO of the Kung Fu forum and let the CMA crowd do what the CMA crowd does.

[Northwind]

:p
Nope... you are wrong again.

Do a search on MMA. You'll find in the majority of cases the MMA threads were started by the traditional crowd. For those threads that didn't start out as MMA, but veered off in that direction, you find that the same crowd were the first to post about it.

Not at all. You're referring to threads that are complaining about mma-fanatics who presently & previously do what I just mentioned. Go away, troll.

[faxiapreta]

:p

Not at all. You're referring to threads that are complaining about mma-fanatics who presently & previously do what I just mentioned. Go away, troll.

Wrong again. Nice try. Actually, it wasn't even a nice try.

[Northwind]

Wrong again. Nice try. Actually, it wasn't even a nice try.
Whatever dude.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a few things:
What works in the ring, works in the street, simply because they tend to be high percentage basic moves.
In regards to weapons, the context is basically the same, what works with and VS weapons against a resisting opponent in "the ring" will work outside of the ring.
Basically because of the same thing - core, high percentage moves.
I have fought in the ring:
Judo, Boxing, MT, MMA and even fought full contact with sticks and aluminum knoves and even the "shock knives".
I have also have the dubious pleasure of fighting outside the ring and have bounced in places such as:
Night clubs: Monopoly, G-spot, Venus, Meow, The world, etc
Strip clubs: Jilly's, Brassrail, Flamengo road, Million dollar, etc.
I have gone one-on-one, 2 and even 3-on-one, I have had knives, bottles and even a machette pulled on me, even been shot at.

IME, what I learned and tested in the ring served me very well outside of it and while my life was never "in danger" in the ring, I never got challenged outside of it like I was inside of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and its not a mma vs tma thing i just simply cannot avoid easy set ups.

i know, if there is a hell, i'll probably get a invitation.

It is NOT and never has been a MMA vs TMA thing, as much as people WANT o make it so.
It is a sport VS "too deadly" thing more than anything else.
The very small group that believes that sport doesn't prepare you for the street VS the very small group that believes that TMA doesn't prepare you for the street.
They are both right and both wrong.

Sport combat systems Of the FC/Full resistence type) prepare you for full contact and all that goes with it, and they do it on a level playing field ( physically).
The attributes you develop - speed, power, the ability to hit and hit while being hit, etc, serve you very well on "the street", BUT are limited to the ruleset one competes in.
TMA training has " no rules" but unless FC training is done. they don't build the attributes to be successful in "the street".


The point is that, if a person can't pull off their fighting in a controlled environment, ( no surprises, no outside interference, basically same weight class, etc) they will have less likely hood of doing it when the conditions are NOT level -
bigger opponent, multiple opponent, obstacle rich environment, lava ;)

[David Jamieson]

"Too deadly". I would think that would be the meathead faction of Kung Fu.
It's easier to just say, I"m not interested in your sport. lol
Nothing wrong with being disinterested in sport.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Too deadly". I would think that would be the meathead faction of Kung Fu.
It's easier to just say, I"m not interested in your sport. lol
Nothing wrong with being disinterested in sport.

Absolutely, totally agree.

[David Jamieson]

The tags are awesome!

sweet lord when did i return to kindergarten? :rolleyes:

:p

[pateticorecords]

You are spot on...

You must always train like you life depends on it.

I have visited numerous schools (Kung Fu, Karate, BJJ, Jui Jitsu) through out my local area and what I learned was that most people become complacent with their training and what they are learning.

You must always keep an open mind and learn from everything available to you.

Thank you all for the fun reads, btw:p





It is NOT and never has been a MMA vs TMA thing, as much as people WANT o make it so.
It is a sport VS "too deadly" thing more than anything else.
The very small group that believes that sport doesn't prepare you for the street VS the very small group that believes that TMA doesn't prepare you for the street.
They are both right and both wrong.

Sport combat systems Of the FC/Full resistence type) prepare you for full contact and all that goes with it, and they do it on a level playing field ( physically).
The attributes you develop - speed, power, the ability to hit and hit while being hit, etc, serve you very well on "the street", BUT are limited to the ruleset one competes in.
TMA training has " no rules" but unless FC training is done. they don't build the attributes to be successful in "the street".


The point is that, if a person can't pull off their fighting in a controlled environment, ( no surprises, no outside interference, basically same weight class, etc) they will have less likely hood of doing it when the conditions are NOT level -
bigger opponent, multiple opponent, obstacle rich environment, lava ;)

[TenTigers]

growing up as a kid, most of the schools did not engage in full contact. Contact, yes, but full contact, rarely.
I know plenty of people who trained with less than full contact who, when forced to use it in street encounters, faired very well. They had distance, timing, and still had impact training.
just sayin..

[sanjuro_ronin]

growing up as a kid, most of the schools did not engage in full contact. Contact, yes, but full contact, rarely.
I know plenty of people who trained with less than full contact who, when forced to use it in street encounters, faired very well. They had distance, timing, and still had impact training.
just sayin..

Of course, some contact is always better than no contact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is one thing that we should be aware of though and that is the increase in "people fighting with some skill".
Granted they don't even come close to being "trained fighters" or even fighters, but there is a growing number that will try to "mma" your ass.

EX:
My BIL loves UFC, never trained, but he and his circle of friends love it and they fight all the time, in that silly, pathetic, wannabe way of theirs.
Just 20 something year olds being stupid.
YET, you can see the obvious attempts at mimicking their "mma idols", the take downs, the GNP's that arm bars and chokes, they all try to do it.
I just found out that a couple of them even did MMA for a few months.

The point being that it is an issue that wan't years ago.

[TenTigers]

There is one thing that we should be aware of though and that is the increase in "people fighting with some skill".
Granted they don't even come close to being "trained fighters" or even fighters, but there is a growing number that will try to "mma" your ass.

EX:
My BIL loves UFC, never trained, but he and his circle of friends love it and they fight all the time, in that silly, pathetic, wannabe way of theirs.
Just 20 something year olds being stupid.
YET, you can see the obvious attempts at mimicking their "mma idols", the take downs, the GNP's that arm bars and chokes, they all try to do it.
I just found out that a couple of them even did MMA for a few months.

The point being that it is an issue that wan't years ago.

good point. I tell my students that before the 70's nobody had really seen much kicking to the head. Most of you were born after Bruce Lee's death, grew up with Chuck Norris, Jacky Chan has his own cartoon show, Power Rangers, Mortal Combat, etc.
Everybody and their uncle has seen and even tried to kick to the head.
Everyone has taken Martial Arts, whether in their school, or at the Y, or a summer camp, whatever.
Don't think that just because you study Martial Arts, that you have some sort of surprise technique.
Now, MMA is the same way. everybody and their uncle will try to take you down and GnP.
The adage that all fights go to the ground may not have been true ten years ago, but you can bet it is now.

[JamesC]

There is one thing that we should be aware of though and that is the increase in "people fighting with some skill".
Granted they don't even come close to being "trained fighters" or even fighters, but there is a growing number that will try to "mma" your ass.

EX:
My BIL loves UFC, never trained, but he and his circle of friends love it and they fight all the time, in that silly, pathetic, wannabe way of theirs.
Just 20 something year olds being stupid.
YET, you can see the obvious attempts at mimicking their "mma idols", the take downs, the GNP's that arm bars and chokes, they all try to do it.
I just found out that a couple of them even did MMA for a few months.

The point being that it is an issue that wan't years ago.

As a jailer, this absolutely blows for us sometimes.

Even if they can't fight, most of the college kids think they can and try us anyways. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

Even if they can't fight, most of the college kids think they can and try us anyways. :rolleyes:

do you make them cry and taste their sweet tears

[Lucas]

do you make them cry and taste their sweet tears

5 oz jar of jock tear sell for $45 on ebay.

[donjitsu2]

There is one thing that we should be aware of though and that is the increase in "people fighting with some skill".
Granted they don't even come close to being "trained fighters" or even fighters, but there is a growing number that will try to "mma" your ass.

.

Very true.

There are a lot more BJJ blue belts walking around then there used to be.

Best to be prepared to deal with one should the situation arise.

Though it would most likely be a ****ty bar fight or something - it's not like you've got roving bands of mma-trained muggers or rape squads on the loose in most of the major cites in America.

Just saying.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Ray Pina]

growing up as a kid, most of the schools did not engage in full contact. Contact, yes, but full contact, rarely.
I know plenty of people who trained with less than full contact who, when forced to use it in street encounters, faired very well. They had distance, timing, and still had impact training.
just sayin..

This is true. Even point sparring trains timing and distancing... Kung Fu would improve dramatically if sparring was incorporated into every class. The first 1/4 of class: strength/conditioning/agility second 1/2 of class: technique or form last 1/4 of class: sparring.

[Ray Pina]

Very true.

There are a lot more BJJ blue belts walking around then there used to be.

Best to be prepared to deal with one should the situation arise.

Though it would most likely be a ****ty bar fight or something - it's not like you've got roving bands of mma-trained muggers or rape squads on the loose in most of the major cites in America.

Just saying.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner


There are a lot of armchair MMA guys who understand the basics. There are also kids who never stepped inside a dojo or school, but pull the moves off with friends from the internet. Some of them are surprisingly competent, though they tend to be week on important but not glamorous things like escapes. Not knowing escaped will get you killed.... learning to escape real side control by someone who understands it what initially got me into MMA/BJJ

[pateticorecords]

growing up as a kid, most of the schools did not engage in full contact. Contact, yes, but full contact, rarely.
I know plenty of people who trained with less than full contact who, when forced to use it in street encounters, faired very well. They had distance, timing, and still had impact training.
just sayin..

You are correct, you can learn about timing, distance, gaps, speed, from point sparring, continuous sparring, etc. it does serve as a good learning tool... but you have to do/experience it in order to better understand the dynamics of combat.

I am an advocate of cross-training in as many forms of combat as possible to understand the principles of their movements... you can incorporate into your own arsenal and also learn how to counter the attacks.

You also try to look for ways to reverse the techniques/applications...

[pateticorecords]

There are a lot of armchair MMA guys who understand the basics. There are also kids who never stepped inside a dojo or school, but pull the moves off with friends from the internet. Some of them are surprisingly competent, though they tend to be week on important but not glamorous things like escapes. Not knowing escaped will get you killed.... learning to escape real side control by someone who understands it what initially got me into MMA/BJJ


Yup, some people have the innate ability to learn things by viewing and can be very proficient.
That's is where traditional training put at an advantage, if you were taught and trained correctly, because for the most part you will have better understanding of what to do, what not to do, and when to do it.

BTW, Ray nice videos... de Jobos... yo vivi frente a la playa de jobos, antes de eso vivia en la Urbanizacion Medina... tambien tenia una escuela de Choy Lay Fut en Isabela. Saludos