Secret of Kung Fu

[瓜娃子]

After doing mma and then learning more in depth internal martial arts and doing years of sparring I have gone back to stances.

Now I do hours of deep stance work. That is the ultimate secret of kung fu...that and medical qi gong and Daoist theory, but you can't embody the theory or tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.

Hung Gar guys know whats up.

[aussie1981]

Definately helps generate power, Chen tai chi guy's are on to it with their stances aswell i recon. :cool:

[David Jamieson]

The actual "secret" of Kung fu is: No secret, just effort and time

[donjitsu2]

The actual "secret" of Kung fu is: No secret, just effort and time


Isn't that from "Kung Fu Panda" ?

[David Jamieson]

Isn't that from "Kung Fu Panda" ?

No. It predates it. By a loooooonnnng time.

But, I suppose the yu gi oh crowd will accept it as kung fu panda wisdom instead of attributing it correctly much in the same way my generation thought Bruce Lee was coming up with all these great philosophical points when in fact he was merely reiterating the sages of his heritage that was at the time pretty unknown in mainstream culture.

:)

Tao is funny that way. :p

also Picasso said, "mediocre artists borrow, great artists steal"

[SPJ]

kung fu panda

what is the secret of father goose noodle soup?

--

panda son: come on, you can tell me.

father goose:---

---

hint: there is no secret, but you make people think that there is one.

:)

[donjitsu2]

SKADOOOSH!

BTW...Kung Fu Panda 2 is much better than the first one.

[Ray Pina]

After doing mma and then learning more in depth internal martial arts and doing years of sparring I have gone back to stances.

Now I do hours of deep stance work. That is the ultimate secret of kung fu...that and medical qi gong and Daoist theory, but you can't embody the theory or tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.

Hung Gar guys know whats up.

I was thinking something similar the other day when training throws.... it's all about stepping into position, getting below the other's hips... essentially a low horse stance. The entering step on many throws is like cat stance or bow and arrow.... depending on if you're throwing over your back or tripping them with weight foreward.

I also think the opening double crossed forearms in many of my early karate katas may be gi chokes instead of front kick blocks. Its a basic choke you'd teach a newbie.

[faxiapreta]

I was thinking something similar the other day when training throws.... it's all about stepping into position, getting below the other's hips... essentially a low horse stance. The entering step on many throws is like cat stance or bow and arrow.... depending on if you're throwing over your back or tripping them with weight foreward.

Doing it with a partner is completely different than doing it by yourself.


I also think the opening double crossed forearms in many of my early karate katas may be gi chokes instead of front kick blocks. Its a basic choke you'd teach a newbie.

It's not a gi choke unless you are doing it on a partner. Otherwise, it's simply crossing your hands in the air.

[Snipsky]

It's not a gi choke unless you are doing it on a partner. Otherwise, it's simply crossing your hands in the air.

Thats a little OVERLY obvious.

[faxiapreta]

Thats a little OVERLY obvious.

Should be, but obviously some people think you can extrapolate it to a gi choke.

[Snipsky]

Should be, but obviously some people think you can extrapolate it to a gi choke.

true. but why wouldn't you be able to turn it into a gi choke especially when the guy doing it intends it that way??

[bawang]

if you have to exptrapolate a technique, it means the original technique doesnt work.


after 10 20 years people are still trying to justify having paid money for sh1tty kung fu and karate lessons

[David Jamieson]

if you have to exptrapolate a technique, it means the original technique doesnt work.

if you believe tai chi people, every single technique is a judo throw.

extrapolation is merely to infer what is known.

It's called breaking it down.

If you see someone throw 5 techniques in one attack and you are interested in the one that produced the KO, then you extrapolate that technique from the 5 used in the attack and focus on it.

Your premise is wrong.

[faxiapreta]

true. but why wouldn't you be able to turn it into a gi choke especially when the guy doing it intends it that way??

Crossing your hands in an "X" type karate block is nowhere near the mechanics used in a gi choke.

[bawang]

having to extrapolate means your teacher didnt explain it to you

there are no ambiguous moves in martial arts

[faxiapreta]

extrapolation is merely to infer what is known.

It's called breaking it down.

If you see someone throw 5 techniques in one attack and you are interested in the one that produced the KO, then you extrapolate that technique from the 5 used in the attack and focus on it.

Your premise is wrong.

That is not extrapolation.

Extrapolation is taking a movement and attempting to apply it to something with completely different mechanics.

[bawang]

american kung fu guys cant stand the thought of having been deceived and taken advantage of for an extremely long period of time by inferior immigrants. so they create defence mechanisms to reduce anxiety and stress.


you guys thought you could harmlessly sample exotic oriental delights but instead were eaten alive by sociopaths who drained your very essence, your very manhood

[David Jamieson]

american kung fu guys have big egos and cant stand the thought of having been deceived and taken advantage of for an extremely long period of time. so they create defence mechanisms to reduce anxiety and stress.

? lol, dude, you are sliding into a racist hodge podge lately.

"american kung fu guys?" Like who? Wong? Lam? So? Eng? Ho? Lee? Li? Ma?

or their students?

lol :p

[bawang]

how am i rasist

[mig]

After doing mma and then learning more in depth internal martial arts and doing years of sparring I have gone back to stances.

Now I do hours of deep stance work. That is the ultimate secret of kung fu...that and medical qi gong and Daoist theory, but you can't embody the theory or tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.

Hung Gar guys know whats up.

It is nice to have low stance to work out your muscles and your dantian but what I've noticed for many years is that people tend to use more their upper body parts, i.e. chest and arms when sparring or punching and lower stances are no longer used.

[David Jamieson]

how am i rasist

It is difficult to see one's own behaviours and words as painted in a dim light.

If you are not aware, I can't make you any more aware. :p

[bawang]

im telling the truth like malcolm x.

american martial artists have the problem of thinking "whatever happens in the dojo stays in the dojo". nothing they learn is carried to practice in real life. it has all been an interactive movie adventure.

its part of the buried colonial mindset to sample the cultures you conquer, but trivializing them and never taking them seriously. to compartmentalize chinese kung fu into a tiny square room white people call a "kewn", and make sure it stays there.

[Snipsky]

american martial artists have the problem of thinking "whatever happens in the dojo stays in the dojo". nothing they learn is carried to practice in real life. it has all been an interactive movie adventure.

are you speaking from personal experience? :)

[bawang]

ya

dfgdfgdfhdf

[Snipsky]

K.........:)

what is this? "dfgdfgdfhdf" i found it on your message.

[SPJ]

abstraction or the reverse of extra polation

we have abstracted some common stances

and make them foundational stances/postures training

when you apply or use them

they are additions or modifications from your abstracted foundational stances/postures.

the abstractions

are your basic/foundational frame or gong jia

or ji ben gong jia.

---

[SPJ]

kung fu panda I

the secret of kung fu scroll

there is no secret

ouch.

:)

[bawang]

there are lots of secrets. chinese kung fu teachers use the language barrier to hide the truth.

language shapes our very view of reality and how we think.

american kung fu people rarely learn more than a few ching chang pow phrases or some fortune cookie sayings.

[David Jamieson]

into the psycho linguistics are ya? lol

what of tactile learning? Aural? Sensual?

More than 75% of all communication is NON-linguistic.

Especially in an environment where tactile is the way.

so, ching chong pai wuzza wuzza doesn't mean anything.

a punch to the head, that means something.

anyone can ching chang po fu duk pong squeeeee all they like, but if they can't be truthful about something, that's their problem.

kung fu is pretty easy to find out if it is what it is.

use it and see. :)

[Lucas]

I learn all my wisdom from fortune cookies! Its ok tho cuz I come from berzerker stock.

[David Jamieson]

FWIW:

ex·trap·o·late   
[ik-strap-uh-leyt]
verb, -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture.
2.
Statistics . to estimate (the value of a variable) outside the tabulated or observed range.
3.
Mathematics . to estimate (a function that is known over a range of values of its independent variable) to values outside the known range.

[bawang]

kung fu is pretty easy to find out if it is what it is.



its easy to find out what it is. to categorize. its hard to become, to understand.

[wenshu]

Crossing your hands in an "X" type karate block is nowhere near the mechanics used in a gi choke.


I can has extrapolate.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1NMjC2FtgVo/0.jpg

[Lucas]

I can has extrapolate.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1NMjC2FtgVo/0.jpg

u has masterful

[SPJ]

stages/phases of progression of learning

"secrets" will reveal or speak to you all in time.

the last photo is kind of dangerous wedding dance move

if one of them is the wed one

--

:)

[bawang]

can a black man understand the kkk? no. he will nevr understand or be part of kkk. this is same with kung uf. we are chinese kkk.

[SPJ]

I can has extrapolate.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1NMjC2FtgVo/0.jpg

it is called golden knife scissors

or jin dao jian

if the top one spins his legs to the side and falls to the side

the bottom one's neck is broken.

--

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

its easy to find out what it is. to categorize. its hard to become, to understand.

to understand, strike and be stricken.

[bawang]

no.

to understand, strike with anger and rage. then you will reach enlightenment.

AWAKEN

[donjitsu2]

can a black man understand the kkk? no. he will nevr understand or be part of kkk. this is same with kung uf. we are chinese kkk.

not true:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wITchV88Gjk

[SPJ]

there are indeed a lot of cultural things

tidbits, axioms, philosophy, way of understanding

--

yes a fight is a fight

but to understand or approach them--

---

[wenshu]

can a black man understand the kkk? no. he will nevr understand or be part of kkk. this is same with kung uf. we are chinese kkk.

Only problem with your analogy is that the KKK actually killed and otherwise successfully harassed and subjugated a substantial population in their terrorization of African Americans in the jim crow south.


The boxer rebellion? Not so much.

Unless you include the emasculation of an already sexually marginalized sub group of oily faced basement dwellers as harrasment, methinks kung fu needs to rethink its subjugation of white people strategy.

[Snipsky]

can a black man understand the kkk? no. he will nevr understand or be part of kkk.

You stand corrected.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7oJRimCtdXTmefjUMXVaI3P714MPfB vFFOEV7WB6J-Aj3NnBpJA

[wenshu]

not true:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wITchV88Gjk

They all stink! And I hate 'em!

If you have hate in your heart let it out!

[pateticorecords]

its easy to find out what it is. to categorize. its hard to become, to understand.
So very true... you must live it...

[Snipsky]

Candaleeza Rice sounds like a Mexican Dish....

[bawang]

The boxer rebellion? Not so much.


the boxer rebellion killed hundreds of missionaries and over ten thousand chinese converts

high five slap hands

[wenshu]

the boxer rebellion killed hundreds of missionaries and over ten thousand chinese converts

high five slap hands

NICE!

knuckle bump

blow it up


*hangs head in white upper middle class shame*

[David Jamieson]

no.

to understand, strike with anger and rage. then you will reach enlightenment.

AWAKEN

anger and rage impede ones ability to properly generate force.

The very best fighters are those who approach it as a task that must be completed. No emotional attachment, just neutral fetch and carry.

When you can do that, you have basically snatched the pebble.
:)

[bawang]

anger and rage impede ones ability to properly generate force.

The very best fighters are those who approach it as a task that must be completed. No emotional attachment, just neutral fetch and carry.

When you can do that, you have basically snatched the pebble.
:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

[wenshu]

The very best fighters are those who approach it as a task that must be completed. No emotional attachment, just neutral fetch and carry.


meh

The mindset of champions.

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

lol, you have learned nothing then... :p

[SPJ]

anger and rage impede ones ability to properly generate force.

The very best fighters are those who approach it as a task that must be completed. No emotional attachment, just neutral fetch and carry.

When you can do that, you have basically snatched the pebble.
:)

yes it is all about inner peace.

quoting kung fu/tai ji panda II dubbed by jack black.

:)

[faxiapreta]

anger and rage impede ones ability to properly generate force.

The very best fighters are those who approach it as a task that must be completed. No emotional attachment, just neutral fetch and carry.

When you can do that, you have basically snatched the pebble.
:)

Anger and rage increase capacity to generate force.

The very best fighters channel their rage because they understand that while this increases power/strength/force generation it also leads to quicker fatigue.

Most people who have competed understand this.

[bawang]

you are right faxiaprata. you are a man of great honor

[wenshu]

Most people who have competed understand this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THHmwQrmUh8

[SPJ]

rage or anger may work at first

but in the long run

it is a uncontrollable or unruly beast.

soon you will be consumed by it. rage and anger control you. you are left with nothing else.

--

quoting star war move III

revenge of sith

anakin went to the dark side

jedi are defending republic/democrasy

anakin wanted to rule the universe all by himself with the force of the dark side

---

:D

[iunojupiter]

Most people who have competed understand this.

You should just make that your signature

[Snipsky]

can you imagine what he's like out in public?

Someone may say "Hey man, have a great day" and instead of saying "thanks man, you too" his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or if he went to church and the preacher says "Peace be with you" again his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or even "hey faxiapreta congratulations on becoming a father he'd shout at them " "Most people who have competed understand this"

he doesn't even realize we can predict what he's gonna say next. LOL

[Lucas]

can you imagine what he's like out in public?

Someone may say "Hey man, have a great day" and instead of saying "thanks man, you too" his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or if he went to church and the preacher says "Peace be with you" again his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or even "hey faxiapreta congratulations on becoming a father he'd shout at them " "Most people who have competed understand this"

he doesn't even realize we can predict what he's gonna say next. LOL

lol we have to admit this is funny

[Lucas]

Anger and rage increase capacity to generate force.

The very best fighters channel their rage because they understand that while this increases power/strength/force generation it also leads to quicker fatigue.



this is the secret of the north. the berzerker fighters used rage and anger most effeciently.

[Snipsky]

this is the secret of the north. the berzerker fighters used rage and anger most effeciently.

Most people who have competed understand this. :D

[Lucas]

Most people who have competed understand this. :D

lol dude ur cracking me up with that, u should make it ur sig

[faxiapreta]

can you imagine what he's like out in public?

Someone may say "Hey man, have a great day" and instead of saying "thanks man, you too" his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or if he went to church and the preacher says "Peace be with you" again his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or even "hey faxiapreta congratulations on becoming a father he'd shout at them " "Most people who have competed understand this"

he doesn't even realize we can predict what he's gonna say next. LOL

Being out in public and having conversations with people is far different than posting on a martial arts forum.

Most people who have competed understand this.

[Snipsky]

I agree that Most people who have competed understand this. :D

[Lucas]

being out in public and having conversations with people is far different than posting on a martial arts forum.

Most people who have competed understand this.

lol!!!!!!!!!

[TenTigers]

Pinan/Heian/Pyong-ahn four-cross hands palms towards you, close into fists, rotate out and forward, turn one fist up
Textbook gi choke.
Totally, and completely textbook.
This is obvious..to those who have actually trained.

[Snipsky]

Pinan/Heian/Pyong-ahn four-cross hands palms towards you, close into fists, rotate out and forward, turn one fist up
Textbook gi choke.
Totally, and completely textbook.
This is obvious..to those who have actually trained.

"Most people who have competed understand this" :D:D:D

[Scott R. Brown]

if you have to exptrapolate a technique, it means the original technique doesnt work.

If you cannot extrapolate, or innovate, you have no Kung Fu!

You may understand the mechanics, but have no understanding of underlying principles!

It is the underlying principles that allow one to innovate on the fly, in the heat of battle, in order to accommodate to unexpected circumstances, and thus prevail!


im telling the truth like malcolm x.

american martial artists have the problem of thinking "whatever happens in the dojo stays in the dojo". nothing they learn is carried to practice in real life. it has all been an interactive movie adventure.

its part of the buried colonial mindset to sample the cultures you conquer, but trivializing them and never taking them seriously. to compartmentalize chinese kung fu into a tiny square room white people call a "kewn", and make sure it stays there.

All cultures do this. Every culture is culturo-centric in favor of itself. Do not think the Chinese are any different.

Chinese are considered VERY racist throughout Asia! In general, they are not very well liked! They are viewed as having a very superior attitude to other Asians and their cultures, even when they immigrate to a different Asian country!

Do not get me wrong, I am not ragging on Chinese, they are no different than anyone else, than any other culture, they are no better and no worse than anyone else!

They also have their own imperialistic past, and plans for the future!


there are lots of secrets. chinese kung fu teachers use the language barrier to hide the truth.

language shapes our very view of reality and how we think.

american kung fu people rarely learn more than a few ching chang pow phrases or some fortune cookie sayings.

There you go! Racism! The only reason to not share is because of one's own racist inclinations. Although there are those who do not fit the mold, just as in EVERY other culture.

My instructor was one of the first Western students of Ark Wong in L.A.

There are no real secrets to those who really introspect into the underlying principles of fighting!

The only reason to pretend there are secrets and keep them from deserving students is for power and control reasons!

[faxiapreta]

Pinan/Heian/Pyong-ahn four-cross hands palms towards you, close into fists, rotate out and forward, turn one fist up
Textbook gi choke.
Totally, and completely textbook.
This is obvious..to those who have actually trained.

BWahaahahaaha!! So all those guys teaching blocks with it got in wrong, huh? Bwhaahaaaa!!!

BTW, with a gi choke, you don't rotate forward. You pull inward. Not to mention the rest of it you got wrong.

Most people who have competed understand this.

Bwaahaahahaa!!

[donjitsu2]

Anger and rage increase capacity to generate force.

The very best fighters channel their rage because they understand that while this increases power/strength/force generation it also leads to quicker fatigue.

Most people who have competed understand this.


I agree. As long as you keep it under control anger can be your friend in a fight.

My old instructor used to talk about the subject but referred to the anger/rage as one's "demon".

He'd always tell us stuff like, "Let your Demon out of the cage, but keep him on a leash", or "In a real fight you're gonna have to use your Demon".


It took me a while to REALLY apply what he was teaching.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[TenTigers]

BWahaahahaaha!! So all those guys teaching blocks with it got in wrong, huh? Bwhaahaaaa!!!

BTW, with a gi choke, you don't rotate forward. You pull inward. Not to mention the rest of it you got wrong.

Most people who have competed understand this.

Bwaahaahahaa!!
two things-yeah, most of the "blocks' were actually strikes. Most of the guys who teach Karate in the states, learned only basics while stationed overseas. Shodan is a student rank, not a Master. When they returned stateside, they opened up schools, and taught what they knew-beginner's understanding.
If you examine the "blocks" and look at the preparatory movements, you will see which is actually the defense, and which is the follow up.

two-there are more than one type of gi collar choke.
Most people who have competed understand this
step...

[TenTigers]

if ignorance is bliss, you must be fukin ecstatic...

[TenTigers]

BWahaahahaaha!! So all those guys teaching blocks with it got in wrong, huh? Bwhaahaaaa!!!
!

in all honesty, I have taught several high ranked Senseis and a few Sifus applications to their own forms, that they were not aware of.
This is not uncommon as you may think. Too many people simply learn what their teachers taught, never think for themselves, never ask questions, never open a book, or do any research on their own styles, other systems, or cross-train.
Really, it's not a big stretch...

[faxiapreta]

two things-yeah, most of the "blocks' were actually strikes. Most of the guys who teach Karate in the states, learned only basics while stationed overseas. Shodan is a student rank, not a Master. When they returned stateside, they opened up schools, and taught what they knew-beginner's understanding.
If you examine the "blocks" and look at the preparatory movements, you will see which is actually the defense, and which is the follow up.

two-there are more than one type of gi collar choke.
Most people who have competed understand this
step...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOI8K7rPkLE

Notice how he explains that you have to pull in to finish the choke.

Also, notice how he explains the way you were talking about is the opposite of what you should do.

[TenTigers]

if ignorance is bliss, you must be fukin ecstatic...
this needs to be said in a Joe Pesci, or Mickey Rourke voice to be truly appreciated..

[SPJ]

you have to compete in the ring or on the street to understand fight.

yes

we have to live to understand life

we have to fight to understand fight

we have to eat or taste the food before we may appreciate/understand the food

but we have to digest and or sometimes regurgitate it, too

--

[faxiapreta]

in all honesty, I have taught several high ranked Senseis and a few Sifus applications to their own forms, that they were not aware of.
This is not uncommon as you may think. Too many people simply learn what their teachers taught, never think for themselves, never ask questions, never open a book, or do any research on their own styles, other systems, or cross-train.
Really, it's not a big stretch...

Teaching things from a form is a waste of time in the first place.

Can you imagine going into a wrestling clinic and they start teaching you wrestling from one of your forms.

Yep, if ignorance is bliss, you must have found nirvanna.

[Snipsky]

you have to compete in the ring or on the street to understand fight.

yes

we have to live to understand life

we have to fight to understand fight

we have to eat or taste the food before we may appreciate/understand the food

but we have to digest and or sometimes regurgitate it, too

of course but Most people who have competed understand this. :D:D:D

[Snipsky]

Teaching things from a form is a waste of time in the first place.

Not true. of course but Most people who have competed understand this.


Can you imagine going into a wrestling clinic and they start teaching you wrestling from one of your forms.

again....Kung Fu people would never go to a wrestling coach to understand kung fu forms..........Most people who have competed understand this.

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOI8K7rPkLE

Notice how he explains that you have to pull in to finish the choke.

Also, notice how he explains the way you were talking about is the opposite of what you should do.
no, he basically said the same thing, I did not say to bring the elbows out.
He is grabbing the lapels and using his forearms to choke-which is the first part of the move.
Turning the hands is twisting the lapels across the throat-which is using the gi itself to choke with, and not the forearms. With a looser garment, this may be a necessary step. BJJ gis are tighter in the arms and body to make it harder to grab-just as shuai jiao tops have short, tighter sleeves and jackets.

[TenTigers]

Teaching things from a form is a waste of time in the first place.

Can you imagine going into a wrestling clinic and they start teaching you wrestling from one of your forms.

Yep, if ignorance is bliss, you must have found nirvanna.
wrestling coaches have textbooks and notes, Martai Artists have forms, which are simply textbooks and notes.
So I guess if I had a notebook, then it would be fine...namaste, douchebag.

[TenTigers]

sorry about the db comment.
but it was freakin funny...couldn't resist.:D

[faxiapreta]

wrestling coaches have textbooks and notes, Martai Artists have forms, which are simply textbooks and notes.
So I guess if I had a notebook, then it would be fine...namaste, douchebag.

And the wrestling coach is sure not going to say, "Let me see your form," and then proceed to extrapolate things from your form into wrestling... which is exactly the thing you were attempting to do with the karate guys.

[瓜娃子]

the karate was just an example.

Karate sucks anyway. Peasant kung fu told as a lie to the Japanese after they finished raping Okinawa..they said, "Teach us your shiri te.

Okay..here is the qi gong...now give yourself a hernia and die young.


Karate sucks


I cum in the mouth of every karate master.

[faxiapreta]

no, he basically said the same thing, I did not say to bring the elbows out.
He is grabbing the lapels and using his forearms to choke-which is the first part of the move.
Turning the hands is twisting the lapels across the throat-which is using the gi itself to choke with, and not the forearms. With a looser garment, this may be a necessary step. BJJ gis are tighter in the arms and body to make it harder to grab-just as shuai jiao tops have short, tighter sleeves and jackets.

Actually, what chokes is both the label and the wrists/forarms.

As far as pulling in, that is required of the choke and is even more important with a looser garment, which is the opposite of what you were claiming.

Anyone who has actually performed this choke on an opponent who is halfway skilled at defending understands this.

[David Jamieson]

can you imagine what he's like out in public?

Someone may say "Hey man, have a great day" and instead of saying "thanks man, you too" his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or if he went to church and the preacher says "Peace be with you" again his reply would be "Most people who have competed understand this" or even "hey faxiapreta congratulations on becoming a father he'd shout at them " "Most people who have competed understand this"

he doesn't even realize we can predict what he's gonna say next. LOL

Most people who have dealt with incessant trolls understand this. lol

i think maxi pad is actually hw108.
knifefighter actually knew stuff about mma. lol this guy or girl is just a wad. :p

[Lucas]

I cum in the mouth of every karate master.

that sounds like quite the task...where do you find the time?

[Scott R. Brown]

Can you imagine going into a wrestling clinic and they start teaching you wrestling from one of your forms.

Any one, two, three, etc., step movement is technically a form!

Wrestlers practice forms, boxers use forms, gymnasts use forms, fencers use forms, etc, so on and so forth.

[Snipsky]

Most people who have dealt with incessant trolls understand this. lol

i think maxi pad is actually hw108.
knifefighter actually knew stuff about mma. lol this guy or girl is just a wad.

LOL.....nice one.

[Lucas]

in cma many call that a 'short form' or we use the same term they do in many other arts 'drill'

i dont understand why people cant get that....

[TenTigers]

And the wrestling coach is sure not going to say, "Let me see your form," and then proceed to extrapolate things from your form into wrestling... which is exactly the thing you were attempting to do with the karate guys.
sorry, I guess this is your hypothetical situation, so you rule...

with the Karate guys, nope, but apparently you know exactly what I was attempting to do..?wtf?

ok, so I think I get it now. Let me know if I'm close here;
You've been to a few schools,
but once the teachers realized that you were mentally ill, they asked you to leave, so now you spend all your time on internet forums, giving your expert opinions.
HA! NAILED IT!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

that sounds like quite the task...where do you find the time?

He makes himself available outside their drinking hangouts....I am sure he pays them for the honor too!:eek:

[pateticorecords]

Any one, two, three, etc., step movement is technically a form!

Wrestlers practice forms, boxers use forms, gymnasts use forms, fencers use forms, etc, so on and so forth.

absolutely correct... you have to learn the basics from somewhere:)

[faxiapreta]

Any one, two, three, etc., step movement is technically a form!

Wrestlers practice forms, boxers use forms, gymnasts use forms, fencers use forms, etc, so on and so forth.

Forms are prearranged and the techniques are based on them. They also look very little like what happens in actual fighting

You are right they are also used by dancers and gymnasts who perform set routines.

The freestyle stuff you see boxers and other fighters use are not prearranged and are based on the techniques that have already been learned and applied. They also look very similar to what happens in actual fighting.

[TenTigers]

Most people who have dealt with incessant trolls understand this. lol

i think maxi pad is actually hw108.
knifefighter actually knew stuff about mma. lol this guy or girl is just a wad. :p
nah, it's mysterious power, same M.O. same signs of mental instability.
hw108 would never argue against TCMA and for MMA.
definitely, definitily mysterious power, definitely mysterious power, yeah..

[Snipsky]

sorry, I guess this is your hypothetical situation, so you rule...

with the Karate guys, nope, but apparently you know exactly what I was attempting to do..?wtf?

its just a ploy to get you to show it working in a full contact match, then he'll ask for you to post a video of it. once you do, what you have done effectively will then be added into his own database of moves. you know what that is.....

but only people who've competed would understand this.

[David Jamieson]

nah, it's mysterious power, same M.O. same signs of mental instability.
hw108 would never argue against TCMA and for MMA.
definitely, definitily mysterious power, definitely mysterious power, yeah..

crikey! I think you're right brother! :eek:

******, my spidey sense is failing me these days...:(

[Snipsky]

Forms are prearranged and the techniques are based on them

What is in a form? if they are not techniques, what are they? it shows that you don't understand forms. Anyone who has done forms understands this.

[Scott R. Brown]

sorry, I guess this is your hypothetical situation, so you rule...

with the Karate guys, nope, but apparently you know exactly what I was attempting to do..?wtf?

ok, so I think I get it now. Let me know if I'm close here;
You've been to a few schools,
but once the teachers realized that you were mentally ill, they asked you to leave, so now you spend all your time on internet forums, giving your expert opinions.
HA! NAILED IT!!!

Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnng!!!!!!:eek:

[David Jamieson]

lol, this is getting better and better :p

[Ray Pina]

Crossing your hands in an "X" type karate block is nowhere near the mechanics used in a gi choke.


This isn't true.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/frontscissorchokeguard12.jpg&imgrefurl=http://slcmma.com/the-cobra-choke-taught-by-the-movie-inception/&usg=__QgE5p076OdDtUEVxT0UhTofCbD4=&h=319&w=424&sz=34&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=JPukbyJ3lt81PM:&tbnh=143&tbnw=146&ei=T7MMTvTLI4KCsgK7qfn-CQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgi%2Bchoke%2Bguard%2Bbig%2Bpic%26hl%3 Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1175%26bi h%3D615%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=574&vpy=75&dur=972&hovh=195&hovw=259&tx=117&ty=137&page=2&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:16

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.markfarnhamtaekwondo.co.uk/gallerymedium/hb5c/ATTACK_Front_kick.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.markfarnhamtaekwondo.co.uk/page/1r7xf/Student_Forms/2_Step_Sparring.html&usg=___OU7nzPhfHtsMj53pS-oD3Xv1yQ=&h=180&w=240&sz=15&hl=en&start=48&zoom=0&tbnid=G5Dw-6YzGuZWvM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=110&ei=sLMMTse1K8OftwfGj7ToDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkarate%2Bfront%2Bkick%2Bblock%2Bform% 2Bpic%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3 Den%26biw%3D1175%26bih%3D615%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3 Divns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=314&page=4&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:48&tx=54&ty=27


The choke makes more sense

[David Jamieson]

What is in a form? if they are not techniques, what are they? it shows that you don't understand forms. Anyone who has done forms understands this.

Anyone who has done forums understands this.

[Lucas]

Anyone who has done forms understands this.

wrong, it goes like this; anyone who has competed understands this!

[瓜娃子]

that sounds like quite the task...where do you find the time?


Only washed up Japanese porn stars count as "Karate masters"

They have a bargain bin brothel in a suburb of Tokyo...I try to make it out there at least once a year.

Now I will do small circle meditation to get fegging enlightened.

[Scott R. Brown]

nah, it's mysterious power, same M.O. same signs of mental instability.
hw108 would never argue against TCMA and for MMA.
definitely, definitily mysterious power, definitely mysterious power, yeah..

Does he only ride on Quantas?

[faxiapreta]

What is in a form? if they are not techniques, what are they? it shows that you don't understand forms. Anyone who has done forms understands this.

They are theoretical techniques. This is exactly why they rarely look like the actual fighting.

Anyone who has actually fought understands this.

[Scott R. Brown]

Only washed up Japanese porn stars count as "Karate masters"

They have a bargain bin brothel in a suburb of Tokyo...I try to make it out there at least once a year.

Is that the same one with the ninjettes you get to keep if you catch one?

[Snipsky]

wrong, it goes like this; anyone who has competed understands this!

oh man, my bad. anyone who has competed understands this! :D:D:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Anyone who understands This, understands this!

And That!

[TenTigers]

yeah, well if he freaks out and shoots me in my school, get his ip addy and track him down. Start collecting evidence now.
This guy's gonna flip out one day, and people are gonna say,
"Wow, never saw it coming..and he was such a quite lad, too. Stayed in all day playing on his computer in his BJJ Gi..."

[Ray Pina]

Training throws by working the mechanics by yourself is not a waste of time.

Working throws with a partner is ideal and eventually necessary to really feel the entering, weight, balance, etc.

I have over 30 years of MA training, the first 10 years was very formed and point sparring based.... I believe that has helped me "get it" much faster than the average newbie when trying new styles. I'm a blue belt in BJJ after 3 years. I regularly tap purple belts in competition and tapped me a brown belt Monday night.

Even BJJ has a kind of form training. We do tons of shrimping, shooting, sprawling drills against the air, zero resistance.

[Scott R. Brown]

yeah, well if he freaks out and shoots me in my school, get his ip addy and track him down. Start collecting evidence now.
This guy's gonna flip out one day, and people are gonna say,
"Wow, never saw it coming..and he was such a quite lad, too. Stayed in all day playing on his computer in his BJJ Gi..."

Don't you mean in his skin tight BJJ shorts and oiled body, talking about how "It LIKES IT!!!!!!!:eek:

[Snipsky]

They are theoretical techniques. This is exactly why they rarely look like the actual fighting.

Anyone who has actually fought understands this.

No one expects you to understand since you possess a huge lack of understanding of forms. I'm sorry you can't comprehend this. I won't judge you for it tho...cause...

anyone who has competed and knows forms understands this!



Even BJJ has a kind of form training. We do tons of shrimping, shooting, sprawling drills against the air, zero resistance.

Shhhhh Don't tell faxiapreta that. it goes against what he believes. but then again....

anyone who has competed and knows forms understands this! :D

[faxiapreta]

http://www.markfarnhamtaekwondo.co.uk/gallerymedium/hb5c/ATTACK_Front_kick.jpg

http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/frontscissorchokeguard12.jpg

Does crossing your hands in that manner make more sense as a choke vs. a block? Of course it does.

Does it make sense to teach a choke in the air that is extended towards the opponent's lower body while standing at distance from your opponent? Nope.

You can't extrapolate a technique taught in a way that makes no sense to one that is taught in a manner that makes sense.

[Scott R. Brown]

Training throws by working the mechanics by yourself is not a waste of time.

Working throws with a partner is ideal and eventually necessary to really feel the entering, weight, balance, etc.

I have over 30 years of MA training, the first 10 years was very formed and point sparring based.... I believe that has helped me "get it" much faster than the average newbie when trying new styles. I'm a blue belt in BJJ after 3 years. I regularly tap purple belts in competition and tapped me a brown belt Monday night.

Even BJJ has a kind of form training. We do tons of shrimping, shooting, sprawling drills against the air, zero resistance.

Ha! I ALMOST posted that wrestlers practice shrimping and that is technically a form!!!!

Good Job Ray!

[pateticorecords]

Forms are prearranged and the techniques are based on them. They also look very little like what happens in actual fighting

You are right they are also used by dancers and gymnasts who perform set routines.

The freestyle stuff you see boxers and other fighters use are not prearranged and are based on the techniques that have already been learned and applied. They also look very similar to what happens in actual fighting.

I help train members high school wrestling team and they are taught moves that they practice solo to perfect angles, their timing, etc. then they try it on each other. Those sets of moves are techniques and a group of techniques becomes a form.

The problem has been that because of the lack of understanding of the combat purposes of forms they have become nothing but a dance anymore.

[TenTigers]

http://www.markfarnhamtaekwondo.co.uk/gallerymedium/hb5c/ATTACK_Front_kick.jpg

http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/frontscissorchokeguard12.jpg

Does crossing your hands in that manner make more sense as a choke vs. a block? Of course it does.

Does it make sense to teach a choke in the air that is extended towards the opponent's lower body while standing at distance from your opponent? Nope.

You can't extrapolate a technique taught in a way that makes no sense to one that is taught in a manner that makes sense.
I agree with you here-the "x-Block" never really made sense to me-
but it does make sense as a choke,(no, not to the lower body, ya dadburned idjit) which again, you would have to be familiar with the Pinan/Heian/Pyongahn forms.
Anyone who practices forms would understand this...step

[pateticorecords]

Training throws by working the mechanics by yourself is not a waste of time.

Working throws with a partner is ideal and eventually necessary to really feel the entering, weight, balance, etc.

I have over 30 years of MA training, the first 10 years was very formed and point sparring based.... I believe that has helped me "get it" much faster than the average newbie when trying new styles. I'm a blue belt in BJJ after 3 years. I regularly tap purple belts in competition and tapped me a brown belt Monday night.

Even BJJ has a kind of form training. We do tons of shrimping, shooting, sprawling drills against the air, zero resistance.

Thanks Ray:)

[Snipsky]

The problem has been that because of the lack of understanding of the combat purposes of forms they have become nothing but a dance anymore.

Not to everyone. some of us have had teachers who knew how to teach you what was in the forms in an effective manner. I know my classmates and I have tried techniques to say "Nah, that doesn't work, lets modify it to make it work right".....nothing wrong with this IMO. you just have to work it out.

[faxiapreta]

Training throws by working the mechanics by yourself is not a waste of time.

It is if you could be using a partner instead. And it would be completely useless if you hadn't already had the feedback of throwing a partner many times before.


Working throws with a partner is ideal and eventually necessary to really feel the entering, weight, balance, etc.

Bingo! You got one right.


I have over 30 years of MA training, the first 10 years was very formed and point sparring based.... I believe that has helped me "get it" much faster than the average newbie when trying new styles. I'm a blue belt in BJJ after 3 years.

Most BJJ guys get their blue in about 1.5 to 2 years, so, if anything, it looks like it held you back a bit.



I regularly tap purple belts in competition

BJJ comps are done by belt. Blues don't compete against purples.



and tapped me a brown belt Monday night.

All upper belts should be getting tapped occasionally by lower belts in training because they should be putting themselves into bad positions against the lower belts.

Lower belts with insecurity issues often brag about this.




Even BJJ has a kind of form training. We do tons of shrimping, shooting, sprawling drills against the air, zero resistance.

Those aren't forms. They are not pre-arranged. They are not strung together in pre-formatted arrangements. They are based on the applications that have already been done with opponents. And they are generally used as warmups to get the body ready for more intense training.

[iunojupiter]

You can't extrapolate a technique taught in a way that makes no sense to one that is taught in a manner that makes sense.

Actually, that's the whole point of "extrapolation". You take a concept, and try to get new ideas out of it. "Hmm.. i cross my hands down here and it's a block. If i do the same movement up here, but I grab with my hands.... whoa, look at that, it's the beginning of a gi grab/choke."

Is it really that hard to go from A to B in your head, or do you just enjoy arguing and saying the same thing over and over again, hoping to make it true?

[pateticorecords]

Not to everyone. some of us have had teachers who knew how to teach you what was in the forms in an effective manner. I know my classmates and I have tried techniques to say "Nah, that doesn't work, lets modify it to make it work right".....nothing wrong with this IMO. you just have to work it out.
Exactly, the way I was taught was to take everything and break down, figure out how to make it work for you based on the principles of the technique.

What most people forget is that a technique is not meant to be executed the way it was taught, because you are taught in the ideal situation. What is meant to do is to develop the muscle memory to be able to use the principles of the technique when you encounter something similar to it.

But you have to practice and train with partners trying different variables.

It is a great when teachers are able to get their students to understand this.

[David Jamieson]

Actually, that's the whole point of "extrapolation". You take a concept, and try to get new ideas out of it. "Hmm.. i cross my hands down here and it's a block. If i do the same movement up here, but I grab with my hands.... whoa, look at that, it's the beginning of a gi grab/choke."

Is it really that hard to go from A to B in your head, or do you just enjoy arguing and saying the same thing over and over again, hoping to make it true?

Extrapolation is key to understanding martial art.

in terms of Kung Fu it is in fact required.

Anyone ever have their sifu say: here is one application to this movement, now you find the others, because they are there.

all history of martial arts has been a great big extrapolation from what is already known.

[Snipsky]

Actually, that's the whole point of "extrapolation". You take a concept, and try to get new ideas out of it. "Hmm.. i cross my hands down here and it's a block. If i do the same movement up here, but I grab with my hands.... whoa, look at that, it's the beginning of a gi grab/choke."

Is it really that hard to go from A to B in your head, or do you just enjoy arguing and saying the same thing over and over again, hoping to make it true?

oh no, you're gonna convert him to Formsism.

[Ray Pina]

http://www.markfarnhamtaekwondo.co.uk/gallerymedium/hb5c/ATTACK_Front_kick.jpg

http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/frontscissorchokeguard12.jpg

Does crossing your hands in that manner make more sense as a choke vs. a block? Of course it does.

Does it make sense to teach a choke in the air that is extended towards the opponent's lower body while standing at distance from your opponent? Nope.

You can't extrapolate a technique taught in a way that makes no sense to one that is taught in a manner that makes sense.

If I was to do that very simple white belt form today, in my mind, I would be standing in low base over someone choking them out. Or in the process of about to drop and spin to my knees to throw them.

The way you view a form will change. Each move will have two or three applications. And usually the application is, not hidden, but disguised a bit. Think of it as a matter of national security at a time when it was.

To be honest, I won't teach my kids "form" when I have them. I'll make them do more Hsing-I like walking to find their connectivity and train them the same way I train: Physical, technical, free play application.

Personally I don't like form but can see their value. Personally, I train so **** hard when I train... I roll. I fight. I beat on people.... that I don't go onto my lawn and do form on my free time. But everyone has to pursue their training the way they think best.

At the same time, this is martial arts. If you open your mouth you should be willing to demonstrate the value of your training method.

[faxiapreta]

Actually, that's the whole point of "extrapolation". You take a concept, and try to get new ideas out of it. "Hmm.. i cross my hands down here and it's a block. If i do the same movement up here, but I grab with my hands.... whoa, look at that, it's the beginning of a gi grab/choke."

Or imagine this. Instead of "extrapolating" a choke from your forms, maybe actually learn that choke from people who have been doing it on live opponents for a couple of centuries now... especially considering the fact that is wasn't even extrapolated until someone saw it being done by the people who were already doing it.

[瓜娃子]

Is that the same one with the ninjettes you get to keep if you catch one?

No the Kinoichi bar is kind of Karaoke. You can catch the girl, but still have to pay a lot of money. Even when I caught the ninja girl I didn't make sex because its expensive.

The bargain bin place is much better because I can find girls I massaged myself to from 10-15 years back. They were once my dream girls..now everyone has forgotten them, but in the right lighting they look the same as they did before. Its really wonderful

[faxiapreta]

The way you view a form will change. Each move will have two or three applications. And usually the application is, not hidden, but disguised a bit. Think of it as a matter of national security at a time when it was.

Really? You still believe this makes sense after training BJJ and MMA?

How many hidden applications are in a triangle? How many hidden applications are in a teep kick? How many disguised techniques are in a single leg takedown.

[Snipsky]

The way you view a form will change. Each move will have two or three applications. And usually the application is, not hidden, but disguised a bit. Think of it as a matter of national security at a time when it was.

He gets it!!!! :D

[Ray Pina]

Most BJJ guys get their blue in about 1.5 to 2 years, so, if anything, it looks like it held you back a bit.

My purple belt exam is next month:)





BJJ comps are done by belt. Blues don't compete against purples.
Absolute division is all weights all belts.



They are based on the applications that have already been done with opponents. And they are generally used as warmups to get the body ready for more intense training.
So are katas.

[iunojupiter]

Or imagine this. Instead of "extrapolating" a choke from your forms, maybe actually learn that choke from people who have been doing it on live opponents for a couple of centuries now... especially considering the fact that is wasn't even extrapolated until someone saw it being done by the people who were already doing it.

Imagine this: Maybe I already know the choke? And my extrapolation from the one technique into another is as simple as: hey... look here, same movement, different application. Never noticed that before.

[David Jamieson]

He gets it!!!! :D

Ray was a kung fu guy who furiously went dojo storming.
Also, it seemed he really liked to fight.
Which is key to being good at fighting actually. :p

[faxiapreta]

Extrapolation is key to understanding martial art.

in terms of Kung Fu it is in fact required.

Anyone ever have their sifu say: here is one application to this movement, now you find the others, because they are there.

all history of martial arts has been a great big extrapolation from what is already known.

Thank you for pointing out one of the main problems with forms. You take a movement and then try to find other movements and applications from that movement.

That's the opposite of the way realistic training happens. In realistic training, you take a problem you are having, dissect what is happening to cause that problem, and then come up with a method to solve that problem.

Forms training = techniques looking for applications.

Realistic training = problems of application looking to be solved.

[TenTigers]

Really? You still believe this makes sense after training BJJ and MMA?

How many hidden applications are in a triangle? How many hidden applications are in a teep kick? How many disguised techniques are in a single leg takedown.

how many ways are there to do a triangle?
How many variations of a front kick are there?
How many variations are there to a single leg t/d?

[Ray Pina]

Really? You still believe this makes sense after training BJJ and MMA?

How many hidden applications are in a triangle? How many hidden applications are in a teep kick? How many disguised techniques are in a single leg takedown.


I didn't say this makes sense. It may have made sense a century or two ago.

[Snipsky]

How many hidden applications are in a triangle? How many hidden applications are in a teep kick? How many disguised techniques are in a single leg takedown.

if you understood forms you wouldn't have to ask that question.

[David Jamieson]

if you understood forms you wouldn't have to ask that question.

dude... it's "Anyone who has competed understands this"

or "anyone who has done forms understands this"

depending on context.

...step

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with forms is that people forgot what they were for.
In a time where people didn't make training manuals ( typically) and had no way to record moves, forms solved that problem.
If a practioner used a technique and it workd, it would go into HIS systems form and be carried down via his students.
The problem is just because it worked for Sifu IronC0ck, doesn't mean i will work for JuniorPussified.

[faxiapreta]

how many ways are there to do a triangle?
How many variations of a front kick are there?
How many variations are there to a single leg t/d?

None of them are "hidden" or "disguised".

[Snipsky]

dude... it's "Anyone who has competed understands this"

or "anyone who has done forms understands this"

depending on context.


dam, dam, dam, i'll get it right. just a few more tries...i should be good.

anyone who has done forms understands this :D I got it.

[faxiapreta]

The problem with forms is that people forgot what they were for.
In a time where people didn't make training manuals ( typically) and had no way to record moves, forms solved that problem.
If a practioner used a technique and it workd, it would go into HIS systems form and be carried down via his students.
The problem is just because it worked for Sifu IronC0ck, doesn't mean i will work for JuniorPussified.

Forms were a method to remember theoretical techniques for people who didn't use those techniques.

[Scott R. Brown]

Innovation is understanding the underlying principles of a choke (technique) and being able to either adapt the choke to an unusual/unpredicted circumstance, and/or adapt your method/process of getting your oppoonent into the choke, and/or moving from an incomplete choke, into another hold, choke, lock, etc. that you CAN apply effectively!

[pateticorecords]

Thank you for pointing out one of the main problems with forms. You take a movement and then try to find other movements and applications from that movement.

That's the opposite of the way realistic training happens. In realistic training, you take a problem you are having, dissect what is happening to cause that problem, and then come up with a method to solve that problem.

Forms training = techniques looking for applications.

Realistic training = problems of application looking to be solved.

You can use the principles of a technique or form in a realistic training setting... again, I am talking of the principle not the pre-arranged movements of a technique.

I use said principles when I train with my BJJ training partners, most who are advanced practitioners, to figure out ways to revert what they are doing or adjust to it so i don't have to tap out;)

[faxiapreta]

So are katas.

Katas are forms and just as much of a waste of time as CMA forms





Absolute division is all weights all belts.

Absolute division is all weights SAME belt.

[pateticorecords]

The problem with forms is that people forgot what they were for.
In a time where people didn't make training manuals ( typically) and had no way to record moves, forms solved that problem.
If a practioner used a technique and it workd, it would go into HIS systems form and be carried down via his students.
The problem is just because it worked for Sifu IronC0ck, doesn't mean i will work for JuniorPussified.

Amen Mr Ronin

[Snipsky]

Forms were a method to remember theoretical techniques for people who didn't use those techniques.

The form did not come before the techniques. Therefore, what is in the form are various techniques. If you knew how to read them, you'd know its like a road map to the destination you seek.

Forms practice is not the reason some kung fu people can't fight. it was the WU DE and the lack of a real threat hence the lack of realistic and effective combat training. when you are not focusing on fighting, people tend to focus on their forms.

Kung fu people who like to fight...fight. win or lose, good or bad, amateur or pro. alot of kung fu is filled with peace loving hippies, but not totally.

[faxiapreta]

Innovation is understanding the underlying principles of a choke (technique) and being able to either adapt the choke to an unusual/unpredicted circumstance, and/or adapt your method/process of getting your oppoonent into the choke, and/or moving from an incomplete choke, into another hold, choke, lock, etc. that you CAN apply effectively!

Yep, and there is a world of difference between doing this on an actual opponent (problem solving- coming up with various ways to apply the choke) and extrapolating a technique from a form (theorizing about what technique might be used for what application).

[David Jamieson]

The problem with forms is that people forgot what they were for.
In a time where people didn't make training manuals ( typically) and had no way to record moves, forms solved that problem.
If a practioner used a technique and it workd, it would go into HIS systems form and be carried down via his students.
The problem is just because it worked for Sifu IronC0ck, doesn't mean i will work for JuniorPussified.

Correct-o-mundo. You may now have a canada day cigar and a scotch/beer/rum/whatever you like.

I observe what follows as a return to a more concise understanding of these few movements (all styles have horse/bow/twist/cat, etc) and use of them in a more focused way. It also follows that as systems meet the demands of people who want to fight in sport venues such as san shou for kung fu or some version of lei tai like events, then that will also change how the system itself is recorded.

Form is the creation of structure in succession and getting your body used to doing things like that until you put the forms behind you and use what's contained within...but I'm repeating you. :p

[faxiapreta]

Here's a challenge for all the people who think a choke is shown in these forms.

Please post links to some images to each of the many choke variations that would necessarily have to be part of these forms.

[Hendrik]

After doing mma and then learning more in depth internal martial arts and doing years of sparring I have gone back to stances.

Now I do hours of deep stance work. That is the ultimate secret of kung fu...that and medical qi gong and Daoist theory, but you can't embody the theory or tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.

Hung Gar guys know whats up.


What is the following means? any one care to explain?


tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.

[Snipsky]

Please post links to some images to each of the many choke variations that would necessarily have to be part of these forms.

what forms? where?

[YouKnowWho]

here is one application to this movement, now you find the others, ...

Agree! The teacher should not spoon feed everything to students. If you show one application, students should be able to figure out other application by following the same principle. By using the "run him down" example, How many different ways can you get your opponent's front leg (M)? How many different ways can you get his back leg (N)? You don't have to show all the M x N combinations. It's not only unnecessary, since you don't allow your students to use their brain, it won't be good for them in the long run.

[Scott R. Brown]

The most beneficial way to use a form is to use it train the body to spontaneously move in specific ways, that is coordination training and entrainment.

It is not used as the sole method of training, but is merely one tool in a tool box. The less, REAL life the movement, the less beneficial the form!

Realistic forms are especially beneficial in weapons training!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms were a method to remember theoretical techniques for people who didn't use those techniques.

Nope, it was a a way to cataloge them, just that simple, what they became after is a different story.
EVERY MA used forms.

[faxiapreta]

what forms? where?

The forms people are claiming they are extrapolating the chokes from.

Show me the form where you are on your back with your ankles crossed and you are doing a palm up label choke, an Ezeckial choke, a mixed grip choke, a collar feed choke and a come around choke.

Show me the forms in which you are on your knees doing the palm up label choke, an Ezeckial choke, a mixed grip choke, and the miscellaneous clock choke variations.

Show me the alligator roll chokes from and all their variations.

Because if you are talking about lapel chokes from standing, they don't really work.

[Ray Pina]

what forms? where?

And why would anyone waste their time?

Train how you want to train. If I think something is being misrepresented, pro or con CMA, I state my opinion. Maybe an example or two.

After that, I don't care. I'm not here to defend any one system or way. I'm here to protect truth and common sense related to CMA and MA in general.

I do agree with one of his ideas though. If you are training regularly you don't need form as a catalog. You know what works for you really well. You know what you're training to adapt into your core "moves."

[Snipsky]

Show me the form where you are on your back with your ankles crossed and you are doing a palm up label choke, an Ezeckial choke, a mixed grip choke, a collar feed choke and a come around choke.

is that something a traditional stand up system does?

[faxiapreta]

Nope, it was a a way to cataloge them, just that simple, what they became after is a different story.
EVERY MA used forms.

Wrestling never used forms. Pankration never used forms. Muay Thai didn't use forms (actually, the non-fighting version did). The Greek, Roman, and middle ages soldiers never used forms. Judo used forms as a holdover from traditional jiujitsu, but put less and less emphasis on them.

Most application oriented combat systems didn't use forms.

[Ray Pina]

Because if you are talking about lapel chokes from standing, they don't really work.

In some form, one hand could be demonstrating one form/idea/application and the other hand another. Meanwhile, the legs are doing something else. This is part of the economy and misdirection.

Again, not saying its necessary or that I agree with it. It's just the way it is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wrestling never used forms. Pankration never used forms. Muay Thai didn't use forms (actually, the non-fighting version did). The Greek, Roman, and middle ages soldiers never used forms. Judo used forms as a holdover from traditional jiujitsu, but put less and less emphasis on them.

Most application oriented combat systems didn't use forms.

Yeah, they did, two man forms and even "shadow boxing".

There were forms in weapons systems too.

[Scott R. Brown]

The forms people are claiming they are extrapolating the chokes from.

Show me the form where you are on your back with your ankles crossed and you are doing a palm up label choke, an Ezeckial choke, a mixed grip choke, a collar feed choke and a come around choke.

Show me the forms in which you are on your knees doing the palm up label choke, an Ezeckial choke, a mixed grip choke, and the miscellaneous clock choke variations.

Show me the alligator roll chokes from and all their variations.

Because if you are talking about lapel chokes from standing, they don't really work.

Extrapolation is context dependent. Sometimes the extrapolation is the method you use to get the person into the choke, sometimes it is varying how the choke is applied because of circumstances.

It is NOT necessarily doing the exact same technique, while hanging upside down, from a trapeze, under water, in a pirana infested river!:rolleyes:

Your view and understanding are way too narrow here!

[David Jamieson]

I do agree with one of his ideas though. If you are training regularly you don't need form as a catalog. You know what works for you really well. You know what you're training to adapt into your core "moves."

True, I spend more time not doing forms during a workout than I do.
In some cases, forms aren't done at all, just work.

[TenTigers]

Wrestling never used forms. Pankration never used forms. Muay Thai didn't use forms (actually, the non-fighting version did). The Greek, Roman, and middle ages soldiers never used forms. Judo used forms as a holdover from traditional jiujitsu, but put less and less emphasis on them.

Most application oriented combat systems didn't use forms.
drills are forms, albeit small ones. Muay Chaya, Muay Boran, which preceded the sport variaty of Muay Thai had forms.

[Snipsky]

I do agree with one of his ideas though. If you are training regularly you don't need form as a catalog. You know what works for you really well. You know what you're training to adapt into your core "moves."

In todays day and age? no. i agree with you 100% on that. But i feel if you're not gonna be entering the fight arena forms practice isn't a huge problem. people get out of forms what they want.


After that, I don't care. I'm not here to defend any one system or way. I'm here to protect truth and common sense related to CMA and MA in general.

Turn on the lights bro. people need to see.

[faxiapreta]

is that something a traditional stand up system does?

If your form "has" them in a realistic manner, they would have to be done in those positional situations.

Of course this leads to another problem with "extrapolating" something like a choke from a standing form.

Chokes are situational. They are rarely effective from standing. They don't even work at all if somoene is mounted on you. They are most effective from the guard, and from the front and back mount.

Pulling chokes randomly from your form, not only is a waste of time, but it can get your arm broken if you don't understand the situational factors that come into play when applying it.

[pateticorecords]

Wrestling never used forms. Pankration never used forms. Muay Thai didn't use forms (actually, the non-fighting version did). The Greek, Roman, and middle ages soldiers never used forms. Judo used forms as a holdover from traditional jiujitsu, but put less and less emphasis on them.

Most application oriented combat systems didn't use forms.


They did however practice a pre-arranged set of movements to learn how to properly and effectively execute what they were taught especially with soldiers who still in this day and age are taught drills to make them move in unison.

[Ray Pina]

Wrestling never used forms. Pankration never used forms. Muay Thai didn't use forms (actually, the non-fighting version did). The Greek, Roman, and middle ages soldiers never used forms. Judo used forms as a holdover from traditional jiujitsu, but put less and less emphasis on them.

Most application oriented combat systems didn't use forms.

Navy Seals use form. Green Beret use forms.

A mock compound was created before the Bin Laden raid. Weeks of walk through form without weapons became weeks of walk through with weapons and then weeks of live fire drills..... no resistance training.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Fast is powerful.

[Lucas]

professional soldiers have always used 'forms' to one degree or another. but oh ya, they cant fight at all.

[Northwind]

Navy Seals use form. Green Beret use forms.

A mock compound was created before the Bin Laden raid. Weeks of walk through form without weapons became weeks of walk through with weapons and then weeks of live fire drills..... no resistance training.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Fast is powerful.

Yeah, but they obviously don't understand reality and are larping :P

[faxiapreta]

Navy Seals use form. Green Beret use forms.

A mock compound was created before the Bin Laden raid. Weeks of walk through form without weapons became weeks of walk through with weapons and then weeks of live fire drills..... no resistance training.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Fast is powerful.

Bwahaahaa!!! Comparing what the special forces do to forms? Give me a break.

What the special forces do are was more along the lines of football drills and scrimage.

Next you are going to try to say football training is forms. Bwhaaaahahaha!!

[David Jamieson]

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/46390979_e77a3c886c.jpg

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/06/4/0/3/1229666288660547.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Beni_Hassan_tomb_15_wrestling_detail.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

They did however practice a pre-arranged set of movements to learn how to properly and effectively execute what they were taught especially with soldiers who still in this day and age are taught drills to make them move in unison.

Which, of course, ARE forms!

Almost all of them practiced forms. What are drills? They are forms! ALL ancient armies drilled. How does anyone think Alexander taught his soldiers to deal with the Persian army's scythe chariots, or Indian elephants?

By repeatedly drilling his army in how to react, avoid, defend and attack WITHOUT scythed chariots or elephants to practice against. That is, they practiced forms!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms = any move that is done in a predetermined routine either solo, in group or VS someone or something.

[pateticorecords]

professional soldiers have always used 'forms' to one degree or another. but oh ya, they cant fight at all.


ahahaha... They don't compete so they don't understand this...hahaha

BTW, Police officers also learn through drills:)

[YouKnowWho]

professional soldiers have always used 'forms' to one degree or another. but oh ya, they cant fight at all.

To me, "a jab followed by a cross" is a form (I prefer to call it drill). It's a way to train solo when you don't have partner. I can repeat this drills 20 times. I can also link:

- jab, cross, hook,
- hammer fist, groin kick, head punch,
- hook punch, back fist, upper cut,
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick,

into a 12 moves short form.

[Lucas]

Bwahaahaa!!! Comparing what the special forces do to forms? Give me a break.

What the special forces do are was more along the lines of football drills and scrimage.

Next you are going to try to say football training is forms. Bwhaaaahahaha!!

your concept of 'forms' is just wrong. sorry, you have this image in your head of kungfu movies. jab, jab, cross, hook, uppercut, over and over is a form. duh

1 -3 movements in the same sequence over and over is a form.

yes some forms are overly involved.

[Scott R. Brown]

Bwahaahaa!!! Comparing what the special forces do to forms? Give me a break.

What the special forces do are was more along the lines of football drills and scrimage.

Next you are going to try to say football training is forms. Bwhaaaahahaha!!

Those drills ARE forms!

These guys even drill, have forms for quickly and effectively drawing their weapons and reloading them!

[Snipsky]

If your form "has" them in a realistic manner, they would have to be done in those positional situations.

Wrong. pre-arranged techniques are taught in the beginning levels to sort of spoon feed you on how the system works. since fighting isn't meant to be carbon copied, its up to the fighting student to comprehend how the techniques would work for them and not the group. the whole idea is to own what you were taught and make it work for you.


Of course this leads to another problem with "extrapolating" something like a choke from a standing form.

why are we stuck on one move?

[Dragonzbane76]

to the original post.

I agree stance work is one of the better tools aquired from KF. Similar story myself of going away from KF for some time and doing MMA and contact fighting, then coming back and finding things again in KF. I don't know if its the "secret" of KF and i'll agree with david that time and effort play the bigger role.

I'm not going to get into the forms debate. I'm not a big fan of them, but they have there place.

[Lucas]

To me, "a jab followed by a cross" is a form (I prefer to call it drill). It's a way to train solo when you don't have partner.

yes, if we use the term 'drill' people are generally ok with it.

[David Jamieson]

combo is suitable as well or i like "sets" as well.

It is a set of data. :)

[Lucas]

c c c c c combo breaker!!

[faxiapreta]

yes, if we use the term 'drill' people are generally ok with it.

OK that's fine. Call it combo, drill... what you want. Still doesn't make trying to extrapolate a choke from it any less stupid.

[Snipsky]

If a fighter is solo practicing and does: a straight punch, hook, uppercut, duck, changed angles and repeats covering at least the four directions he is doing a form. you say tomato i say tomahto

[faxiapreta]

If a fighter is solo practicing and does: a straight punch, hook, uppercut, duck, changed angles and repeats covering at least the four directions he is doing a form. you say tomato i say tomahto

Yep, if he was doing the same exact thing over an over again, he'd be wasting his time as much as if he were doing a traditional form.

Shadow boxing should be the movements done in a fight. If a boxer is doing the same movement over and over again, he's going to get knocked on his @ss in short order.

Still not quite as stupid as trying to extrapolate chokes from his movements.

[pateticorecords]

Which, of course, ARE forms!

Almost all of them practiced forms. What are drills? They are forms! ALL ancient armies drilled. How does anyone think Alexander taught his soldiers to deal with the Persian army's scythe chariots, or Indian elephants?

By repeatedly drilling his army in how to react, avoid, defend and attack WITHOUT scythed chariots or elephants to practice against. That is, they practiced forms!


Thanks;) I was in the military for 8 years... that's how we were taught, as a group. We of course then applied it on each other to test it out.

Funny thing is that most people speak of combat in terms of modern day sport... I speak of combat from a life or death stand point... I have seen perfectly executed pre-arranged techniques pulled in REAL COMBAT that resulted in death of the opponent. The element of surprise and the timing were instrumental in their effectiveness.

[Lucas]

OK that's fine. Call it combo, drill... what you want. Still doesn't make trying to extrapolate a choke from it any less stupid.

i dont recall talking about any cross choke in the slightest.. but also in regards to crossing your arms in that movement....i would never block like that. ever. so you cross your arms and block a groin shot and then you get your face smashed in with the follow up punches to the feint kick that you 100% dedicated your guard to.

i dont go for the cross block ideas. sure it is a strong structure to block with, but it doesnt make sense to me. if i can get both of my arms down there to cross block i would have the time to move or try to catch the kick and move in for a sweep on the support

[Snipsky]

Yep, if he was doing the same exact thing over an over again, he'd be wasting his time as much as if he were doing a traditional form.

everything gets repeated over and over and over till they get it right. the same can be said when we learned our ABC's. So practicing sprawling over and over again is a waste of time?


Shadow boxing should be the movements done in a fight. If a boxer is doing the same movement over and over again, he's going to get knocked on his @ss in short order.

Still not quite as stupid as trying to extrapolate chokes from his movements.

you're still focused on one silly choke.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue of a move not being what it seems to be in a form is one that caught awhile back and one I never care much for.
The fact is:
The majority of attacks to which one blocks in a form are NOT strikes but attempts to grab.
Strikes come to fast and don't "stay" there long enough to be blocked ( typically) but grabs and attempted grabs do.
Many low blocks are actually low hammerfists or low forearm strikes and not blocks to kicks.
The upper block of karate, for example, in the majority of forms is a raising forearm smash, typically done VS an over head strike.
The bunkai of most forms stopped being taught and what was taught was crappy more often than not.
Blame the teachers and their teachers.

[pateticorecords]

i dont recall talking about any cross choke in the slightest.. but also in regards to crossing your arms in that movement....i would never block like that. ever. so you cross your arms and block a groin shot and then you get your face smashed in with the follow up punches to the feint kick that you 100% dedicated your guard to.

i dont go for the cross block ideas. sure it is a strong structure to block with, but it doesnt make sense to me. if i can get both of my arms down there to cross block i would have the time to move or try to catch the kick and move in for a sweep on the support

Standing Cross blocks were also taught to capture/grab the limb of the opponent...

[faxiapreta]

Thanks;) I was in the military for 8 years... that's how we were taught, as a group. We of course then applied it on each other to test it out.

Funny thing is that most people speak of combat in terms of modern day sport... I speak of combat from a life or death stand point... I have seen perfectly executed pre-arranged techniques pulled in REAL COMBAT that resulted in death of the opponent. The element of surprise and the timing were instrumental in their effectiveness.

Now imagine being a trained in your "forms" as an infantry fighter and then trying to "extrapolate" those "forms" as a Navy seal infiltrating the Bin Laden compound.

More than likely those extrapolations would get you killed.

[Snipsky]

The fact is:
The majority of attacks to which one blocks in a form are NOT strikes but attempts to grab.
Strikes come to fast and don't "stay" there long enough to be blocked ( typically) but grabs and attempted grabs do.

When people understand that, the blocks turn into more of a deflection, a shorter more compact version of what you practice in forms. you see it all the time in UFC

[sanjuro_ronin]

The cross block was NEVER a choke.
It was either a block or a strike.
Some forms were taught empty handed but were suppose to be done with a small weapon, many moves in Okinawan forms were to be done with a "tekko" or other small, concealed, handheld weapon.

[瓜娃子]

What is the following means? any one care to explain?


Your Shifu should know. These are common terms in Chinese martial arts.

[Snipsky]

Now imagine being a trained in your "forms" as an infantry fighter and then trying to "extrapolate" those "forms" as a Navy seal infiltrating the Bin Laden compound.

they would already be dissected and extrapolated for you by the time your are finished training.

[Lucas]

Standing Cross blocks were also taught to capture/grab the limb of the opponent...

exactly!!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Now imagine being a trained in your "forms" as an infantry fighter and then trying to "extrapolate" those "forms" as a Navy seal infiltrating the Bin Laden compound.

More than likely those extrapolations would get you killed.

Uh, they did practice on a mock up for a number of days and uh. .....they DID have to extrapolate/innovate on the fly when the helicopter crashed!

That is one of the things special forces train for, the ability to extrapolate based upon changing real world circumstances!

But they still practice, practice, practice and that practice IS a kind of form!

You really have no idea what you are talking about, concerning this whole conversation!

[faxiapreta]

everything gets repeated over and over and over till they get it right. the same can be said when we learned our ABC's. So practicing sprawling over and over again is a waste of time?

Practicing one or two movements over an over again in the manner in which it is to be applied in order to perfect technique is not a waste of time.

Practicing a bunch of moves strung together in a manner that is not the same as will be applied in fighting is not a waste of time.

Extrapolating from either of those situations to situations that are completely different is not only a waste of time, it is counterproductive.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks;) I was in the military for 8 years... that's how we were taught, as a group. We of course then applied it on each other to test it out.

Funny thing is that most people speak of combat in terms of modern day sport... I speak of combat from a life or death stand point... I have seen perfectly executed pre-arranged techniques pulled in REAL COMBAT that resulted in death of the opponent. The element of surprise and the timing were instrumental in their effectiveness.

When I was in Taiwan military, we trained how to fight with riffle in close distance. I still remembered a combo that I used the handler of my riffle to swing horizontally to my opponent's head, followed by a straight handle strike at his face. Oneday during the target training, I used my swing at a target that was designed for straight striking only. When I broke that training target, I could hear my sergeant screamed at me from behind.

[瓜娃子]

The cross block was NEVER a choke.
It was either a block or a strike.
Some forms were taught empty handed but were suppose to be done with a small weapon, many moves in Okinawan forms were to be done with a "tekko" or other small, concealed, handheld weapon.

Peasants taught their Chinese/Okinawan countrymen their peasant tricks to deal with the Samurai.

They were forced to teach the Japanese and did a poor job.

Funakoshi was the only student in his area....had to train in secret and was a nerd.

Pick your dweebiest student. Now teach him at night and in secret when you are an old man.

Then he dumbed it down for schoolchildren

who dumbed it down for US soldiers.

How good can it really be at this stage? Why is anyone even talking about karate? If the US had taken over a dirty village in　Ｎｏｒｔｈｅｒｎ　Ｃｈｉｎａ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｆｏｕｎｄ　ｂｅｔｔｅｒ　ｍａｒ ｔｉａｌ　ａｒｔｓ．　　６０＇ｓ　ａｒｅ　ｏｖｅｒ．．．ｗｈｙ　ａｒｅ　ｙｏｕ　ｓｔｕｃｋ　ｏｎ　ｋ ａｒａｔｅ？

[Snipsky]

Practicing one or two movements over an over again in the manner in which it is to be applied in order to perfect technique is not a waste of time.

Neither is practicing forms, or extrapulating what is found in them and putting them to effective use.

[faxiapreta]

Standing Cross blocks were also taught to capture/grab the limb of the opponent...

LOL... good luck with that. Almost as dumb as trying to use them as chokes.

[pateticorecords]

Now imagine being a trained in your "forms" as an infantry fighter and then trying to "extrapolate" those "forms" as a Navy seal infiltrating the Bin Laden compound.

More than likely those extrapolations would get you killed.


The basics of the training is the same... ALL US Armed Forces use the same drills however, the SEALs, Green Berets, AF Paratroopers & Combat Control, Marine Special Forces get additional training based on their specialties. You then have to put it to the test and figure out what works best for you...

[pateticorecords]

LOL... good luck with that. Almost as dumb as trying to use them as chokes.

Oh, I didn't say I was using them...hahaha just saying they were taught for that purpose;)

[faxiapreta]

Neither is practicing forms, or extrapulating what is found in them and putting them to effective use.

Extrapolate a choke from a form. Do it when someone is mounted on your or you are in his guard. You will get your elbow snapped.

Extrapolate new types of punching variations and do them in the same positional situations and you will find the same thing happening to your arm.

Extrapolate ways to get out of a RNC from your form and you won't escape, but you will get choked out.

[pateticorecords]

When I was in Taiwan military, we trained how to fight with riffle in close distance. I still remembered a combo that I used the handler of my riffle to swing horizontally to my opponent's head, followed by a straight handle strike at his face. Oneday during the target training, I used my swing at a target that was designed for straight striking only. When I broke that training target, I could hear my sergeant screamed at me from behind.


Thanks for sharing this... trust me I had my fair share of being screamed at...hahaha

[Scott R. Brown]

Extrapolate a choke from a form. Do it when someone is mounted on your or you are in his guard. You will get your elbow snapped.

Extrapolate new types of punching variations and do them in the same positional situations and you will find the same thing happening to your arm.

Extrapolated ways to get out of a RNC from your form and you won't escape, but you will get choked out.

Once again, you got it all wrong. You would practice a number of RNC escapes as your form, and then practice them against a partner, you would NOT practice a totally unrelated movement pattern.

[Snipsky]

Extrapolate a choke from a form. Do it when someone is mounted on your or you are in his guard. You will get your elbow snapped.

Extrapolate new types of punching variations and do them in the same positional situations and you will find the same thing happening to your arm.

Extrapolated ways to get out of a RNC from your form and you won't escape, but you will get choked out.

i mean why are we frozen on a CHOKE? there are many more fun techniques in forms other than chokes. and no one ever escaped from a RNC? ever?

New punching variations? there are only so many ways to punch kick and block effectively. and they are indeed found in forms.

[Northwind]

Practicing one or two movements over an over again in the manner in which it is to be applied in order to perfect technique is not a waste of time.

Practicing a bunch of moves strung together in a manner that is not the same as will be applied in fighting is not a waste of time.

Extrapolating from either of those situations to situations that are completely different is not only a waste of time, it is counterproductive.

Yup. Even musicians throughout history have understood what you are saying. I mean, who in their right mind would practice scales? No one wants to hear that, because it makes zero melodic song, i.e., to practice something not in the exact way it is to be performed is simply dumb. You are so right. So happy that scales don't exist, aren't you?

[Lucas]

the real secret of kungfu is the hip action development. we learn how to use our rotations well, and then we please many womens with it. its all in the hips. just ask any of my concubines

[pateticorecords]

i mean why are we frozen on a CHOKE? there are many more fun techniques in forms other than chokes. and no one ever escaped from a RNC? ever?

New punching variations? there are only so many ways to punch kick and block effectively. and they are indeed found in forms.

In the world of MMA the only things that work are the jab, cross, round house, and some ground fighting everything else is sucks:D:D:D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Peasants taught their Chinese/Okinawan countrymen their peasant tricks to deal with the Samurai.

They were forced to teach the Japanese and did a poor job.

Funakoshi was the only student in his area....had to train in secret and was a nerd.

Pick your dweebiest student. Now teach him at night and in secret when you are an old man.

Then he dumbed it down for schoolchildren

who dumbed it down for US soldiers.

How good can it really be at this stage? Why is anyone even talking about karate? If the US had taken over a dirty village in　Ｎｏｒｔｈｅｒｎ　Ｃｈｉｎａ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｆｏｕｎｄ　ｂｅｔｔｅｒ　ｍａｒ ｔｉａｌ　ａｒｔｓ．　　６０＇ｓ　ａｒｅ　ｏｖｅｒ．．．ｗｈｙ　ａｒｅ　ｙｏｕ　ｓｔｕｃｋ　ｏｎ　ｋ ａｒａｔｅ？

I see no point in your post, none.
Just the typical silliness that doesn't contribute to anything.

[Hendrik]

Now I do hours of deep stance work. That is the ultimate secret of kung fu...that and medical qi gong and Daoist theory, but you can't embody the theory or tonify yin or the dai mai without low stance training.


Your Shifu should know. These are common terms in Chinese martial arts.



Could you please explain your version of explanation ?


Thanks!

[faxiapreta]

Once again, you got it all wrong. You would practice a number of RNC escapes as your form, and then practice them against a partner,

You couldn't practice them without a partner, which also applies to the rest of fight training.



you would NOT practice a totally unrelated movement pattern.

Well that's what someone is doing by extrapolating chokes from forms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the real secret of kungfu is the hip action development. we learn how to use our rotations well, and then we please many womens with it. its all in the hips. just ask any of my concubines

Lucas has potato sacked the correct.

[faxiapreta]

Yup. Even musicians throughout history have understood what you are saying. I mean, who in their right mind would practice scales? No one wants to hear that, because it makes zero melodic song, i.e., to practice something not in the exact way it is to be performed is simply dumb. You are so right. So happy that scales don't exist, aren't you?

Listen to the notes in a scale. Then listen to those notes in a musical piece. The notes will sound the same.

Next, watch someone do a form. Then, watch him fight full - contact. There will be very little similarity between the two.

[Northwind]

Listen to the notes in a scale. Then listen to those notes in a musical piece. The notes will sound the same.

And are those notes played right after one another, as they are done in a scale? No.


Next, watch someone do a form. Then, watch him fight full - contact. There will be very little similarity between the two.
LOL...

[faxiapreta]

The cross block was NEVER a choke.
It was either a block or a strike.
Some forms were taught empty handed but were suppose to be done with a small weapon, many moves in Okinawan forms were to be done with a "tekko" or other small, concealed, handheld weapon.

Ya see? When things are practiced in the air, anyone can say they are "meant to be" this or that. The fact is they aren't this or that unless they are applied to the opponent.

Until then they are just dancing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ya see? When things are practiced in the air, anyone can say they are "meant to be" this or that. The fact is they aren't this or that unless they are applied to the opponent.

Until then they are just dancing.

You do realize that they way forms were taught originally was that they were taught AFTER the practioner had practical knowledge and AFTER the practioner was "in shape" to learn, they were the finishing part of MA training, like I mentioned before, the "catalog".
One training was 1-on-1 or in small groups, that is the ideal method.
As the saying goes, "something got lost in the translation" along the way.

[Lucas]

forms are good if you are going to go to prison for a long time. since you cant bring your notes you can have a moving catelog of your techniques that are all arranged. that way you can train your gang to be a killing force and rule the yard.

[faxiapreta]

You do realize that they way forms were taught originally was that they were taught AFTER the practioner had practical knowledge and AFTER the practioner was "in shape" to learn, they were the finishing part of MA training, like I mentioned before, the "catalog".
One training was 1-on-1 or in small groups, that is the ideal method.
As the saying goes, "something got lost in the translation" along the way.

Someone who knew his art wouldn't need the form. Most expert boxers, BJJ, Sambo, MMA fighters and wrestlers don't have catalogs of the thousands of techniques they have learned over the years... same with most skill activities that people learn.

If anything the forms would have been taught because they DIDN'T learn the system well.

[Snipsky]

forms are good if you are going to go to prison for a long time. since you cant bring your notes you can have a moving catelog of your techniques that are all arranged. that way you can train your gang to be a killing force and rule the yard.

yeah, we can name the clique "form kings"....don't fuk wit' us. :D

[Lucas]

yeah, we can name the clique "form kings"....don't fuk wit' us. :D

lol hell ya. lets go to prison man!

[Snipsky]

Someone who knew his art wouldn't need the form. Most expert boxers, BJJ, Sambo, MMA fighters and wrestlers don't have catalogs of the thousands of techniques they have learned over the years... same with most skill activities that people learn.

then how did they learn them? they were born with those skills?

[Snipsky]

lol hell ya. lets go to prison man!

Ok, but I'm the shot caller k?

[Lucas]

Someone who knew his art wouldn't need the form. Most expert boxers, BJJ, Sambo, MMA fighters and wrestlers don't have catalogs of the thousands of techniques they have learned over the years... same with most skill activities that people learn.

If anything the forms would have been taught because they DIDN'T learn the system well.

no the forms were taught generally only to people who planned on passing on the system. this way they have a large variety to offer, not everyone is good at the same stuff, so as a teacher you need to be able to take someone and find what they excell at and work it. thats why you have so much to offer.

[Lucas]

Ok, but I'm the shot caller k?

partners bro! :mad:

anyone who competed would understand this!

[Snipsky]

partners bro!

anyone who competed would understand this!

Ok ok.....parnters....

that should be our Motto ....

Form Kings "anyone who competed would understand this"

[Lucas]

and we can sell moonshine and ciggarettes

[SPJ]

When I was in Taiwan military, we trained how to fight with riffle in close distance. I still remembered a combo that I used the handler of my riffle to swing horizontally to my opponent's head, followed by a straight handle strike at his face. Oneday during the target training, I used my swing at a target that was designed for straight striking only. When I broke that training target, I could hear my sergeant screamed at me from behind.

depending on the years that you were in

you probably were using M-14 Taiwan made, or zhong cheng shi bu qiang/rifle.

it is with a heavier butt

I was using M-16 with a lighter butt in 1980s.

but still you swing it or short stroke/stab (chuo) the butt

both will knock out the opponent, whether hitting chin, temple, or in the nose---

--

[TenTigers]

The cross block was NEVER a choke.
It was either a block or a strike.
Some forms were taught empty handed but were suppose to be done with a small weapon, many moves in Okinawan forms were to be done with a "tekko" or other small, concealed, handheld weapon.
ever wonder why after the cross block, you turn one hand upward?

[Lucas]

this is the most important post of the day: pay close attention;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_TMB9jO5SM

[faxiapreta]

no the forms were taught generally only to people who planned on passing on the system. this way they have a large variety to offer, not everyone is good at the same stuff, so as a teacher you need to be able to take someone and find what they excell at and work it. thats why you have so much to offer.

The real time application systems figured out a long time ago you don't need to pass on a bunch of forms. When you teach people correctly, they teach what works rather than what the teacher tells them should work.

No wonder the forms in traditional systems ended up with so many unrealistic techniques

[Snipsky]

The real time application systems figured out a long time ago you don't need to pass on a bunch of forms. When you teach people correctly, they teach what works rather than what the teacher tells them should work.

No wonder the forms ended up with so many unrealistic techniques.

no, chalk it up to your lack of understanding of forms. if you had a proper teacher, and if you would have competed you'd know this.

one day....one day you will become a forms king too.....

[Lucas]

you misunderstand what i was saying....you dont learn the form then teach the form. you learn the form at the end of your training. when you have a student you teach them techniques and drills, you have them spar and use what you are teaching them, you systematically introduce them to things and narrow down what they can work with best. you dont teach them the form...

ahhh nevermind why am i even responding.

[Snipsky]

ahhh nevermind why am i even responding.

form kings never back down.......

[faxiapreta]

you misunderstand what i was saying....you dont learn the form then teach the form. you learn the form at the end of your training. when you have a student you teach them techniques and drills, you have them spar and use what you are teaching them, you systematically introduce them to things and narrow down what they can work with best. you dont teach them the form...

ahhh nevermind why am i even responding.

Apparently, you don't understand what I am saying.

In the realistic unarmed combat systems, you never have to learn the forms because all the techniques are ingrained in your head. Not to mention the new ones that you continue to learn as long as your are involved in one of these systems.

[Lucas]

I can has extrapolate.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1NMjC2FtgVo/0.jpg


form kings never back down.......

I not back down, I give up!

[Snipsky]

In the realistic unarmed combat systems, you never have to learn the forms because all the techniques are ingrained in your head. Not to mention the new ones that you continue to learn as long as your are involved in one of these systems.

how are they ingrained in your head if you never practice them a million times?

[SPJ]

this is the most important post of the day: pay close attention;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_TMB9jO5SM

talking about over kill or over achiever

i would rather eat the melons and drink the soda

and save the bullet or fire power for something else

--

:eek:

[Lucas]

Apparently, you don't understand what I am saying.

In the realistic unarmed combat systems, you never have to learn the forms because all the techniques are ingrained in your head. Not to mention the new ones that you continue to learn as long as your are involved in one of these systems.

i get what you are saying and I understand you think there is only one way for things.

[pateticorecords]

MMA/BJJ is the end all... no traditional martial artist will ever be able to defend themselves against a MMA fighter. No one can defeat a MMA/BJJ practitioner other than a higher ranking one... accept it, you have been wasting your time with all of this non-sense of tradition (principles of honor & respect, techniques, drills, forms, philosophy, discipline, internal cultivation, confidence, humility)...
Time to move on. I am taking up knitting... anybody want to join me? :D

[YouKnowWho]

MMA/BJJ is the end all... no traditional martial artist will ever be able to defend themselves against a MMA fighter. No one can defeat a MMA/BJJ practitioner other than a higher ranking one... accept it, you have been wasting your time with all of this non-sense of tradition... I finally came to this realization.

Time to move on. I am taking up knitting... anybody want to join me? :D

I am getting a rope, finding a quite place, and hanging myself (too much shame to train TCMA). Anybody want to join me? :D

[Northwind]

how are they ingrained in your head if you never practice them a million times?
That's easy. Best answer from him would be..."None of your business."
:P

[faxiapreta]

MMA/BJJ is the end all... no traditional martial artist will ever be able to defend themselves against a MMA fighter. No one can defeat a MMA/BJJ practitioner other than a higher ranking one... accept it, you have been wasting your time with all of this non-sense of tradition... I finally came to this realization.

Time to move on. I am taking up knitting... anybody want to join me? :D

So forms and extrapolating techniques from those forms = traditional martial arts?

[Northwind]

So forms and extrapolating techniques from those forms = traditional martial arts?

None of your business.

[faxiapreta]

how are they ingrained in your head if you never practice them a million times?

After about 10 to 15 years you have practiced them enough for them to be permanently etched in your brain.

[Snipsky]

After about 10 to 15 years you have practiced them enough for them to be permanently etched in your brain.

My personal experience with kung fu does the same thing.