Dian dao ji zhi? Lau Kar Leung quote

[diego]

Cahiers: What do you think of Bruce Lee's kung fu?

Lau K-l: When we were kids, we knew each other very well. Bruce Lee was passionate about kung fu. It was his life. His contribution was recognized by those of us who were doing kung fu. He introduced it to the whole wide world. But he was missing something; That was the "Wude" (martial arts philosophy) and the "Xiu yang" (self-control). He only knew how to fight. He hit to hurt, for the pleasure of the strikes. He was too much a Westerner. The traditional Chinese courtesy was alien to him. When you watch his movies, the violence and the power of his blows can't be missed. For us, the principle is Dian dao ji zhi (to stop when we hit the opponent, to know how to retrain yourself and slow down the strike at the very moment of the hit). Someone is really strong in kung fu only if he's able to do that. Bruce Lee was limited in his knowledge of martial arts: his kicks and his boxing -- that was it. Likewise, his "zhaoshu" (gestures) were also quite limited.

Cahiers: Bruce Lee's kung fu was a blending of many techniques.

Lau K-l: Yes. There were elements derived from Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Western boxing -- all that, with a little of Chinese kung fu. But Bruce Lee was very smart. He applied himself diligently, and when he practiced kung fu, he gave it his all. He was a superb actor. He began to do movies very young.

Where does the concept of "slowing down the strike at the moment of the hit" come from?. I can't find any books on Google and can not read Chinese so I have no idea where to look.. Tai Chi, Wu Dang, or Shaolin Classics, is this a Hung gar thing?. http://changcheh.0catch.com/lau-int.htm

[Hendrik]

点到为止.

means one doesnt strike the full blow. as soon as the strike touch, it stops there to not create damage for the person one strike.



for the old timer, the so called full contact no pull back and proud of KO is no wude.
That is because what is the point to KO someone just to a game?

Thus, choke and another technics are prohibit to be used in friendly match. because it might cause permenant damage or injury. using those type of technics is considered unfriendly and go for real life and dead fight.




this following is ignorance because it could cause longterm serious health problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9dmw-i4M4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNJzov5LA_Q&feature=related

so 点到为止. means one stop before one cause these stuffs to happen. there is no point to make happen what is already obvious.

[ShaolinDan]

It comes from sparring without equipment. At least in my experience.

[Quote probably ties in to the stories I've read here about Lee being rough on his stuntmen. If you can't/don't pull your punches when appropriate...well, that's lame. Sounds to me like that's what LKL is really talking about... ]

Sorry diego, can't help you with any real history, just my impression. Take it with a grain of salt.

[mooyingmantis]

点到为止.

means one doesnt strike the full blow. as soon as the strike touch, it stops there to not create damage for the person one strike.



for the old timer, the so called full contact no pull back and proud of KO is no wude.
That is because what is the point to KO someone just to a game?

Thus, choke and another technics are prohibit to be used in friendly match. because it might cause permenant damage or injury. using those type of technics is considered unfriendly and go for real life and dead fight.

this following is ignorance because it could cause longterm serious health problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9dmw-i4M4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNJzov5LA_Q&feature=related

so 点到为止. means one stop before one cause these stuffs to happen. there is no point to make happen what is already obvious.

Isn't 点 到 为 止 diǎn dào wéi zhǐ, rather than dian dao ji zhi?

[Jimbo]

It comes from sparring without equipment. At least in my experience.

[Quote probably ties in to the stories I've read here about Lee being rough on his stuntmen. If you can't/don't pull your punches when appropriate...well, that's lame. Sounds to me like that's what LKL is really talking about... ]

Sorry diego, can't help you with any real history, just my impression. Take it with a grain of salt.

Hmm. I had actually heard that Lee was pretty good with, and well-liked, by his stuntmen (as reported by some of his stuntmen themselves, including Jackie Chan). Lee had supposedly taught Hwang In-Shik, a Korean Hapkido master, a bit of a lesson for going a bit too hard on his stuntmen/actors on the set of Way of the Dragon.

Sammo Hung was notoriously physically rough on his own stuntmen. I really doubt that Lee was anywhere near as rough on stuntmen as Jackie, Sammo, etc., on the sets of their 1980s films, where actual hard contact levels and dangerous stunts increased dramatically.

The actor I've heard was REALLY bad with stuntmen was Van Damme, who reportedly caused some serious injuries to some guys. Which was truly low, because anyone can be a 'tough guy' when it isn't a real fight and the stuntmen have to react to or take your strike without protecting themselves or fighting back. I remember some litigation taking place years ago regarding the injuries caused.

It does sound like LKL was talking about dian dao wei zhi; pulling one's punches. Maybe LKL did not mean while filming movies, but training in general. Though IMO, over-emphasizing pulling your strikes during training can create bad habits, too.

[Hendrik]

It does sound like LKL was talking about dian dao wei zhi; pulling one's punches. Maybe LKL did not mean while filming movies, but training in general. Though IMO, over-emphasizing pulling your strikes during training can create bad habits, too.


LKL was talking about the Chinese martial artist attitude which Bruce Lee doesnt inherit in Bruce's daily practice.

[SteveLau]

Diego,

It is unlikely one will find where the concept of "slowing down the strike at the moment of the hit", explained specifically. Because it is now part of Chinese culture already. At large, the technique means to fight with self-restraint. It is good martial ethics. That means, a good fellow does not always fight without restraint. And sometimes the only restraint there is our ethics.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[ShaolinDan]

Jimbo,
I know nothing about Lee's treatment of stuntmen except a few comments I've happened to read here, may very well be nothing but rumor.

[SteveLau]

And I believe LKL description of Bruce Lee's attitude and his fighting method in real fight is very much correct. But it does not mean Bruce is always ethically wrong. Yes, he is much westernised. One can also say that he is a product of the Western and Eastern culture. IMHO, Bruce is a practical man. That means if he needs to fight, he will do so well. The way he fights will be efficient and effective for the objective of the occasion. Not harsh enough is unlikely found in his action. Perhaps it is overdone sometimes that causes critism.

All in all, both MA ethics views of LKL and BL are largely correct. The question is where do we draw the line in facing the same situation. My conclusion of the story quoted is that Bruce Lee does not easily make the mistake of being too nice. A glimpse of his character can be seen from the followings:

Is Bruce a good fighter? Yes, he certainly is.

Is he a good fellow? He is likely so.

Is he a saint? Unlikely.



KC
Hong Kong

[extrajoseph]

Isn't 点 到 为 止 diǎn dào wéi zhǐ, rather than dian dao ji zhi?

点到即止 dian dao ji zhi is more to the point of "to stop when we hit", 点 到 为 止 diǎn dào wéi zhǐ can mean "it is the end when we hit".

[CFT]

点到即止 dian dao ji zhi is more to the point of "to stop when we hit", 点 到 为 止 diǎn dào wéi zhǐ can mean "it is the end when we hit".In practical terms they mean the same thing. A cessation of the 'fight' when you make contact.

The issue I have is whether dian/dim (点) really does mean 'touch' or is actually a euphemism for an actual solid hit.

[mooyingmantis]

点到即止 dian dao ji zhi is more to the point of "to stop when we hit", 点 到 为 止 diǎn dào wéi zhǐ can mean "it is the end when we hit".

Extrajoseph,
Thank you for the comment and providing the Chinese character 即 ji. I couldn't figure out which character the "ji" stood for and Hendrik had written 为, which is wei. So, I was confused. Thank you for clearing this up!

[diego]

And I believe LKL description of Bruce Lee's attitude and his fighting method in real fight is very much correct. But it does not mean Bruce is always ethically wrong. Yes, he is much westernised. One can also say that he is a product of the Western and Eastern culture. IMHO, Bruce is a practical man. That means if he needs to fight, he will do so well. The way he fights will be efficient and effective for the objective of the occasion. Not harsh enough is unlikely found in his action. Perhaps it is overdone sometimes that causes critism.

All in all, both MA ethics views of LKL and BL are largely correct. The question is where do we draw the line in facing the same situation. My conclusion of the story quoted is that Bruce Lee does not easily make the mistake of being too nice. A glimpse of his character can be seen from the followings:

Is Bruce a good fighter? Yes, he certainly is.

Is he a good fellow? He is likely so.

Is he a saint? Unlikely.



KC
Hong Kong

I'm trying to find the interview Bruce Lee gave dissing all the "fat belly chi masters" in Hong Kong does any one know the title details?. It seems Bruce created a lot of opinion on himself withtin the CMA world I see LKL was saying Bruce was young and no olympic athlete his gung fu could have been better he just had natural talent and being part German imo that made him strive to do more than those around him...

Most people of Color who do great have a bit of mixed culture in their blood...Bob Marley, Obama wasn't Jimi Hendrix part white?. :) it's like a pop art thing bruce was a fiend for those american dollars i can see how some elders in the Chinese community would see him as a bit of an upstart.

[Jimbo]

Sure BL was a quarter German, but I don't think being mixed blood has much or anything to do with someone doing better in life or not. EVERYONE is mixed-blooded, if you go back far enough.

Certainly, BL's ideas on fighting were heavily influenced by his association with MAists and others he met in the U.S. Many of whom would not have shared the old-style CMA ethics. As already mentioned, that isn't necessarily bad, it's just different. In some instances, holding back might get you in a load of trouble if you're dealing with someone who not only doesn't share that value, but there are folks out there (through size, natural toughness, adrenaline, being "on" something, or crazed) who can take your best shot(s) and will keep on coming. It would seem that BL might have envisioned such a scenario and adjusted his mindset accordingly. Which may have caused misunderstandings when he went back to HK.

Or BL could have just been different, or more open to other ideas. Or simply young and brash. Every group/culture has those in each generation who step outside of the status quo.

OTOH, I can understant what LKL meant by self-control, esp. when you're talking about during training or a friendly match. I read that BL once punched a taiji teacher during a taiji demo, when the teacher asked him to try to push him over, which other teachers had failed to do. Afterwards, BL was quoted as saying, "I don't push; I punch." In such a case, the better thing would have been to simply ignore the taiji teacher's request, or challenge him outright.

As for BL having been saintly or not, I haven't met or seen anyone yet who fits the bill (in MA in general, including elder CMA masters), so he has a lot of company in that respect.

[diego]

I hate to be stereotypical on this forum but I mean Jesse Jackson failed to get elected and he is pretty ghetto his brother got busted for Crack smuggling or something wheras Obama ran a pretty cleancut campaign. Bruce did marry a white girl and even rascist white people feel Bob Marley music..Im just saying bieng mixed can have its own added blessings.

[doug maverick]

I'm trying to find the interview Bruce Lee gave dissing all the "fat belly chi masters" in Hong Kong does any one know the title details?. It seems Bruce created a lot of opinion on himself withtin the CMA world I see LKL was saying Bruce was young and no olympic athlete his gung fu could have been better he just had natural talent and being part German imo that made him strive to do more than those around him...

Most people of Color who do great have a bit of mixed culture in their blood...Bob Marley, Obama wasn't Jimi Hendrix part white?. :) it's like a pop art thing bruce was a fiend for those american dollars i can see how some elders in the Chinese community would see him as a bit of an upstart.

nope full black. and jesse jackson who btw sits on the board for time warner, is not ghetto...doesnt matter if his "brother" got arrested. if your brother gets arrested for smoking crack would that make you ghetto?

[doug maverick]

Where does the concept of "slowing down the strike at the moment of the hit" come from?. I can't find any books on Google and can not read Chinese so I have no idea where to look.. Tai Chi, Wu Dang, or Shaolin Classics, is this a Hung gar thing?. http://changcheh.0catch.com/lau-int.htm

he is talking about holding back, and not going full out.

[diego]

nope full black. and jesse jackson who btw sits on the board for time warner, is not ghetto...doesnt matter if his "brother" got arrested. if your brother gets arrested for smoking crack would that make you ghetto?

if you watch ABC news in the 80's box set they do a good segement on JESSE vs Raegan...jackson is a horrible politician even if he had Melle Mel and the Furious Five sing a song about him...farrakhan had a better chance lol;) anyway enough about the pop facts I feel queasy bringing up racial issues on the forum .



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Does anyone have that interview Bruce gave dissing HK?. I can't remember if it's something online or I read about it in a book?.

[SteveLau]

The original topic of this thread has a synonym - stop when it is appropriate (適 可而 止).

Case in point, I remember the scene at the beginning of a movie I watched a few years ago. The representatives of two ninja clans come to talk about the end of truce between them before the Japanese Emperor. They also demonstrate their ninjitsu skill by fighting against each other. Before the demonstration begins, one side asks the emperor "Can we kill ?" The emperor says "Stop when it is appropriate". The fight is fierce alright. But at the end, no one gets killed or hurt much.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong