Changes to 7 Star Mantis?

[chaz71]

I am yet again looking for answers to questions I have in regard to my research into 7 Star Mantis.
From my general enquiries I understand that traditional forms of martial art were shunned and actively discouraged by the Chinese Government in the 1950's. This I believe led to teachers being persecuted for their art and as a result of being ' requested ' by the Chinese government they had to develope ' modern ' versions of the traditional sets.
This happened and I am interested to know how this effected mantis boxing and especially 7 Star.
It is a subject that I have never come across being mentioned in 7 Star yet other Chinese martial arts acknowledge this happening.
If this is the case are these ' new generation forms' listed and acknowledged as such? Are the original versions of the forms still taught?
I am not looking to be con-traversal in this but I am generally interested. To me if this happened then these are a genuine addition to the style and should be credited to the masters who created them.
I apologise if this subject has already been asked but any constructive comments would be much appreciated.
Many thanks

[mooyingmantis]

Chaz71,
Communism came to power in China starting in 1949. By this time, Qixing Tanglangquan had already spread throughout Asia. So, the effects of Communism on 7* as a system would be minimal.

[chaz71]

Hello,
I am getting the feeling that the Chinese Government at that time implemented more changes than we realise, even the traditional qigong exercises were standardised along with Chinese Medical practices, traditional martial art was pretty much outlawed so for it to survive and still be taught during that time there must have been changes.
As it went south and out of China it changed so we can assume that a lot of changes happened in the last 60 years or so both inside and outside of China.
Even LGY students play it differently and in the mainland areas of Shandong it is played differently from yantai, qindao and Dalian yet they are all from the same source?
As I understand it the original LGY shanghai branch play it differently than the HK branches do.
My original training was HK origin yet it was played different to the Malaysian origin school yet both are from the same source?
My point is what generated these changes to a style that is only 120 years old?

[iunojupiter]

Changes are made in martial arts every time the lineage is passed from generation to generation.
Every student is different, so look at it this way. 3 students from same teacher do the same form. All 3 forms will not be played exactly the same. Each student has their own strength and weakness, and those can be observed in the form. Is each form the same form? yes. Is the way it's played the same? No.

This generally translates into differences in forms within the same style. I wouldn't say it's because of Communist China, it's just how things evolve.

[EarthDragon]

what difference does it make as long as you know the applications as they will never change.

If you focus too much on forms and the way they are "supposed" to be or look like you loose the intention. Forms are just poems to remember the application if you know that the form is usless.

[chaz71]

I agree that different classmates will play the form slightly differently depending on size and athletic ability but with that in mind you can still see that they are from the same school as the emphasis in the way the form is played will be the same as this comes from your teacher. If not there is a problem with the instruction!

Forms are important, without them there is no style, it is form playing that helps train your body to move and to generate the qi required for the techniques to work by directing it correctly through your meridian channels but this is another subject in it's own right.

Are all applications from the forms the same?

They may look the same but there are differences in application from form to form.
That is the biggest mistake in interpretation and always shows those who have been taught forms by an instructor and those who have learnt from books or film clips.
That is why there is a range of forms in 7 Star, otherwise why keep learning the same techniques but in different orders, it makes no sense?

Yes elements get altered over time but why? As most of us have done when we cannot remember a move or technique we go and ask our instructor or a senior classmate or both rather then just leaving it out, this I fear is why there is such a variance of the style IMHO.
Thanks guys for the input.

[EarthDragon]

Forms are important, without them there is no style,
why would you say this? there are plenty of MA that have no forms, are you saying that they are not considered styles?



it is form playing that helps train your body to move and to generate the qi required for the techniques to work by directing it correctly through your meridian channels but this is another subject in it's own right.

kind of but not quite, qi generation/cultivation is not directed or enhanced by performing a form expect for the argument that excersize develops qi, however for the applications to work properly you must train the applications. plain and simple


Are all applications from the forms the same?

yes they outta to be, the application does not change only the person who teaches them incorreclty by not understanding them changes.

a power cut is a power cut a joint lock or a throw is a joint lock or a throw, the move in the form is to remerber and train the body to move towards this performance, however it remains the same indefinatly.



They may look the same but there are differences in application from form to form.there should not be


That is the biggest mistake in interpretation and always shows those who have been taught forms by an instructor and those who have learnt from books or film clips.

if you learn forms from a books or a video we should not have this discussion

[chaz71]

Ok,
if forms arnt important why have them?
Even Japanese arts have forms?
If they are not important why have so many?
If the applications are all the same no matter what, again why have lots of forms with the same moves repeated in a different order?
Because if you know the technique then why learn it again? It makes no sense in that line of thinking!
I understand your point but it also makes the point of why have forms if other styles don't and are effective?
As to qi not being focused through the forms then that blows away Chen Taijiquan that I also train in as the whole purpose of the forms is to develope and generate the qi through the body inorder to apply it through the technique. I shall mention it to my teacher and my Grandmaster on his next visit to the UK because that is totally against my understanding of Taiji.
So if qi is not generated by the correct movements of the form then where does the power come from? If it's just from muscle power then why are the older generation of masters so powerful in there application?
As to learning from books and film we all know this goes on mainly because important information is always left out or altered on purpose so that those who then claim to have been taught it are caught out but that is modern life and an area I am not interested in. The whole point of learning a martial art is to be taught it by somebody who knows what they are doing.
I appreciate your input and just to clear up any issue I have been a 7 Star student and teacher for well over 20 years at an officially recognised school and have competed both nationally and internationally while promoting this style, I learnt a syllabus of over 60 forms including weaponry so I am not on here to upset or troll.
I am researching and have been for over 10 years and I am still looking for answers that my own personal studies have created.
Many thanks again for your views.

[mooyingmantis]

Hello,
I am getting the feeling that the Chinese Government at that time implemented more changes than we realise, even the traditional qigong exercises were standardised along with Chinese Medical practices, traditional martial art was pretty much outlawed so for it to survive and still be taught during that time there must have been changes.

Outlawed does not equal exterminated. If it was exterminated, from what did Wushu develop? Also, the fact that Wushu did not entirely replace the traditional styles shows the dedication that practitioners had, even during times of persecution.


As it went south and out of China it changed so we can assume that a lot of changes happened in the last 60 years or so both inside and outside of China.
Even LGY students play it differently and in the mainland areas of Shandong it is played differently from yantai, qindao and Dalian yet they are all from the same source?

I would agree with this.



My point is what generated these changes to a style that is only 120 years old?

My answer would be personal choice and development. Today many teach the same forms a tad bit differently. For example, I have seen three different ways to move from Tiger Riding, Slanting Insert Strike to Straddle Tiger, Catch Cicada Pattern (movements two and three) in the Beng Bu form of Seven Star Praying Mantis.

I think the similarities between styles is more interesting than the differences.

[chaz71]

Hi Mooying

I appreciate your thoughts and your time in replying to this thread, I really do but I am now off this forum as I find hostility from some members uncalled for.
Good luck in your training and thankyou again.

[-N-]

That is why there is a range of forms in 7 Star, otherwise why keep learning the same techniques but in different orders, it makes no sense?
.

It might not make sense if people look at techniques out of context.

Forms document strategies and concepts aside from individual techniques.

But you don't need forms to learn any of those.

[EarthDragon]

if forms arnt important why have them?
Even Japanese arts have forms?If they are not important why have so many?
I didnt say they wernt important they have thier place but you do not ned forms to have a style.


If the applications are all the same no matter what, again why have lots of forms with the same moves repeated in a different order?
we have 5 forms some styles that lack substance have 100's hpowever the applications are reason for the form, without app's the form is dance and excersize


Because if you know the technique then why learn it again? It makes no sense in that line of thinking!

for pratice
I understand your point but it also makes the point of why have forms if other styles don't and are effective?

becuse forms were taught by illeterate teachers that could not read nor write so these forms are poems to remember the application, nothing more.



As to qi not being focused through the forms then that blows away Chen Taijiquan that I also train in as the whole purpose of the forms is to develope and generate the qi through the body inorder to apply it through the technique. I shall mention it to my teacher and my Grandmaster on his next visit to the UK because that is totally against my understanding of Taiji.

taiji is not a form. if you dont understnad then pleae ask lets not assume indifference


So if qi is not generated by the correct movements of the form then where does the power come from? If it's just from muscle power then why are the older generation of masters so powerful in there application?

qi is generated through proper breathing, visualization and proper body mechanics as well as intention, not a form...... even standing still generates qi, perhaps you are not sure about your question




As to learning from books and film we all know this goes on mainly because important information is always left out or altered on purpose so that those who then claim to have been taught it are caught out but that is modern life and an area I am not interested in. The whole point of learning a martial art is to be taught it by somebody who knows what they are doing.
agreed, I was fortunate enough to be taught by the chinese


I appreciate your input and just to clear up any issue I have been a 7 Star student and teacher for well over 20 years at an officially recognised school and have competed both nationally and internationally while promoting this style, I learnt a syllabus of over 60 forms including weaponry so I am not on here to upset or troll.
I didnt mean to offend you atr all chaz, but your questions seem like that of one who is just starting to learn, not a shifu

PS 60 forms are usless if you are not focused on the application more than 10 is ridiculous the rest is rubbish

[chaz71]

Yes I think you do mean to offend earthdragon,
Interesting reading your old posts on this forum and how much you learned about mantis boxing from others input who train in other mantis styles!
Isn't that what your teacher is for?
Your style only has 10 forms, good for you.
By the way have you learnt the other 5 forms yet because back in 2005 you state you only knew 5 and yet you had been training for 16 years at that time.
But this is now getting stupid and I am getting as offensive as you.
I agree the majority of people do not need masses of forms, to me it was a waste.
I have not knocked your style and I am quite frankly shocked that you openly knock as style like 7 Star. One that has been around longer than yours although not by much. You have obviously never fully studied 7 Star and as this thread was aimed at 7 Star practitioners I do not see why you wanted to put your 5 dollars worth in?
IMHO if you know nothing about a subject then don't comment.
7 Star does have a vast array of Sets both hand and weapon that have been created and added by the founder of the style and past masters and I'm sorry that you feel these Masters knew nothing more after a lifetime of study and training.
On that note I will bow to your superior knowledge of 7 Star and after a long period off this forum because of attitudes like yours I will again say goodbye.