Short Bridges in Hung-Ga

[TenTigers]

what do you consider the short bridging in Hung-Ga, and how do you train them?

[YouKnowWho]

The bridge is your body part touches your opponent's body part. The bridging concept exists in all TCMA styles and not just Hung-Ga. What do you mean "short"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I work "inside" his elbows.

[YouKnowWho]

When I work "inside" his elbows.
As far as I know, the "mantis arm" is the best "inside" bridging that you touch your fore-arms on top of your opponent's for-arms, and your hands on top of your opponent's elbow joint. It also exists in many southern CMA systems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As far as I know, the "mantis arm" is the best "inside" bridging that you touch your fore-arms on top of your opponent's for-arms, and your hands on top of your opponent's elbow joint. It also exists in many southern CMA systems.

Indeed it does :D

[TenTigers]

wow..that's all the replies?
C'mon, guys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I tend to train it in this way:
On the dummy I work inside the "elbow" of the dummy, where you are "suppose" to work.
On the bag I put my elbows in front and work my strikes with them in front and from minimal distance.
And when I spar and want to focus on them, I do basically the same thing:
Elbows in front, hands "in the way" and spar that way.

[Indrafist]

wow..that's all the replies?
C'mon, guys.

There's a deep question here about just what a style is?
If it's an informational set, analogous to genetic material, then how do you use what you've got? If you read the structures etc as presented, then they're abstract. If you apply what they 'imply', directly, then you get a specific bandwidth limited by the abstract structures. If however you make them work for you, as Sanjuro does, then you have a living relationship to the 'form' of the art, within you. This will mean that one man's Hung Gar short bridge is very different from someone else's which, I think, is how it should be.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's a deep question here about just what a style is?
If it's an informational set, analogous to genetic material, then how do you use what you've got? If you read the structures etc as presented, then they're abstract. If you apply what they 'imply', directly, then you get a specific bandwidth limited by the abstract structures. If however you make them work for you, as Sanjuro does, then you have a living relationship to the 'form' of the art, within you. This will mean that one man's Hung Gar short bridge is very different from someone else's which, I think, is how it should be.

Indra.

An excellent point.
Add to that explaining in words what tends to be best demo'd in moves and you have a tricky subject Rik.

[Subitai]

There's a deep question here about just what a style is?
If it's an informational set, analogous to genetic material, then how do you use what you've got? If you read the structures etc as presented, then they're abstract. If you apply what they 'imply', directly, then you get a specific bandwidth limited by the abstract structures. If however you make them work for you, as Sanjuro does, then you have a living relationship to the 'form' of the art, within you. This will mean that one man's Hung Gar short bridge is very different from someone else's which, I think, is how it should be.

Indra.

Hey Ten.... Indra kinda just said your quote: My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.

Didn't he??? :)

I realize that you may just be trying to get a good discussion going so Kudos for that.

IMO, if you want a Textbook A typical example from HG i'd say: The lance piercing hand. Basically the guy grabs you and you Crowd, Settle down and stabb. I shouldn't need to explain it further for someone like you. Anyone who knows Hung should know this basic move.


Short can also be a timing issue other than just physical limitation.
I guess another thing to consider is Actual distance and timing. For example, it isn't easy to elbow someone who "Floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee" from a distance.

So what do you do? Especially if that's your bread and butter? Well, I'm always a fan of the saying you cannot force what isn't given to you. So that pretty much answers that question.

But patience and allowing the other person to get closer is another view. As you get older, you realize you don't chase a younger fighter down...(that's HIS game) you let him make the mistakes. Then you make him pay big!!

[YouKnowWho]

wow..that's all the replies?
C'mon, guys.

Since this is a Hung-Ga thread, only Hung-Ga guys are qualified to comment. Even I'm interesting in the "bridging" concept, I'm afraid to dirve this discussion outside of the Hung-Ga system.

Don't want to act like a MMA guy and try to hang around in area that he should not hang around in the 1st place. :D

[Indrafist]

Since this is a Hung-Ga thread, only Hung-Ga guys are qualified to comment. Even I'm interesting in the "bridging" concept, I'm afraid to dirve this discussion outside of the Hung-Ga system.

Don't want to act like a MMA guy and try to hang around in area that he should not hang around in the 1st place. :D

Hi YouKnowWho, I am a Hung-Gar guy (36 years training in that style).
I'm not known particularly for it but it's a style for which I have a lot of respect and affection. My point re bridges was that you can't avoid making the art a part of you, based on your personal experience. That experience will show thru, not so much in how the forms are done (there's always variation in this both within and between schools) but in how they are applied. A good traditional teacher has very well refined san-sau. This will come from experience and not (only) from the repetition and grooving of forms. The forms, will inform the san-sau, but at a certain point, they no longer determine it.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi YouKnowWho, I am a Hung-Gar guy (36 years training in that style).
I'm not known particularly for it but it's a style for which I have a lot of respect and affection. My point re bridges was that you can't avoid making the art a part of you, based on your personal experience. That experience will show thru, not so much in how the forms are done (there's always variation in this both within and between schools) but in how they are applied. A good traditional teacher has very well refined san-sau. This will come from experience and not (only) from the repetition and grooving of forms. The forms, will inform the san-sau, but at a certain point, they no longer determine it.

Indra.

Quoted for the truth.

[YouKnowWho]

My point re bridges was that you can't avoid making the art a part of you, based on your personal experience. That experience will show thru, not so much in how the forms are done (there's always variation in this both within and between schools) but in how they are applied.

I find the bridging concept is very unique in TCMA. Depending on your goal, you try to use your bridge to reduce your risk to the minimum. A Hung-Ga guy may want to use his bridge to create a head on collusion strike. Others may want to use his bridge to get into clinch.

[Indrafist]

I find the bridging concept is very unique in TCMA. Depending on your goal, you try to use your bridge to reduce your risk to the minimum. A Hung-Ga guy may want to use his bridge to create a head on collusion strike. Others may want to use his bridge to get into clinch.

My point is that Hung Gar practitioners are not stereotypes, as indeed those of other styles are not. Hung Gar is not a rule-set that allows you to predict what a given practioner will do. Many people like to believe that kind of thing: it's the basis of generic style 'put-downs' (I'm not suggesting this of you BTW). Styles find their expression thru individuals. In the end it's the differences between practitioners that determine what stage of development they're at. A style is a starting point, the end goal is something personal and unique.
As for head on or clinching, both are entirely possible with a 'Hung Gar guy'.
Ask Subitai.

Indra.

[YouKnowWho]

As for head on or clinching, both are entirely possible with a 'Hung Gar guy'.

I'm glad to hear that Hung-Ga guys are more open minded. In some style discussion thread, when you mention the word "clinch", people will think that you are tring to drive the discussion away from the original subject.

[hasayfu]

Interesting topic TT. In general, bridging is best defined by the classic poems. "Build a bridge and walk over it."

For Hung Gar, this is a key concept. I don't claim it is the only style to have this concept but it should drive almost all contact. This implies that HG is not a "hit and run" style or a "mainly counter attack" style. If you look at the 12 bridges, it is a model for all connections. Chuen Kiu (inch/short bridging) is just one of the 12.

If you are asking about the one bridge, distinct from the others, then subitai gave a decent example. But training the bridges should not happen in isolation. In abstract, bridging is a connection. Usually discussed when the arms make contact but it actually starts the moment there is any connection. Body position, posture, distance all come into play.

In this sense, you could call short bridging, the moment there is contact. As Subitai has also mentioned in previous posts, our sifu condensed the concept of bridging into one word. "Follow" It doesn't mean keep constant contact but more follow the energy/opportunity. I think a twist on a classic poem applies. "Find the door and walk in"

I like this metaphor because if the door is open, you just walk in. If the door is automated, you must wait for it to open. In some cases, it can close on you (like an elevator door). Some doors require you to open them yourself. For these, some you can open and leave open while others need you to hold them open. Some doors are locked. In this case, you must decide to break the door or find another. If you look at the 12 bridges, they discuss various ways to find and utilize a door. Focusing on one of the bridging concepts is only training for one type of door.

So what were you looking for?

[TenTigers]

I agree. Short bridging can manifest within all the twelve bridges. The twelve bridges are qualities of energy, not necessarily techniques. Putting them into twelve bridges is more of an attempt to transmit into words, what is taught through feel. It is a learning aid that unfortunately has become dogma. The finger, rather than the moon.
Of course this is my experience, your mileage may vary.

[TenTigers]

what am I looking for? a discourse, an exchange of knowledge, opinions, experiences.
A few interesting topics to challenge the thoughts and views of the forum members and stimulate intelligent conversation.
To bring this forum back on track, to what it once was.

[Indrafist]

I agree. Short bridging can manifest within all the twelve bridges. The twelve bridges are qualities of energy, not necessarily techniques. Putting them into twelve bridges is more of an attempt to transmit into words, what is taught through feel. It is a learning aid that unfortunately has become dogma. The finger, rather than the moon.
Of course this is my experience, your mileage may vary.

Agreed the 'Bridges' are more like qualities and principles.
Principles give rise to techniques in the same way as Plato's theory of Perfect Form gives rise to specific instantiations of 'form', in this case: short bridges.

[hasayfu]

what am I looking for? a discourse, an exchange of knowledge, opinions, experiences.
A few interesting topics to challenge the thoughts and views of the forum members and stimulate intelligent conversation.
To bring this forum back on track, to what it once was.

I guess my question was, did I meet your goal? We could write a book on "short bridging".

I like this topic because in much of the sparring I see on the internet, I don't see bridging used often. Is it because it isn't effective in the ring or because it isn't trained well? In the short clip of Subitai, you see it but his opponent went down to quick to easily notice.

As a side note, a few times in light sparring, I get the comment, "I'm crowding them." This is the result of proper bridging (as I understand it in HG). While opening doors for yourself, you close them for your opponent. So in sparring, while I may not see a tiger claw or a crane beak, I should see the gap bridged and the closeness maintained. Closing the gap, attacking and then getting out is not bridging. Waiting for your opponent to initiate contact is not (typically) bridging.

[Indrafist]

I guess my question was, did I meet your goal? We could write a book on "short bridging".

I like this topic because in much of the sparring I see on the internet, I don't see bridging used often. Is it because it isn't effective in the ring or because it isn't trained well? In the short clip of Subitai, you see it but his opponent went down to quick to easily notice.

As a side note, a few times in light sparring, I get the comment, "I'm crowding them." This is the result of proper bridging (as I understand it in HG). While opening doors for yourself, you close them for your opponent. So in sparring, while I may not see a tiger claw or a crane beak, I should see the gap bridged and the closeness maintained. Closing the gap, attacking and then getting out is not bridging. Waiting for your opponent to initiate contact is not (typically) bridging.

It may be time to extend the understanding of 'bridging' to include 'target acquisition'. In contact or not, enagement starts the moment you detect a threat, your movements, and the opponents, are part of the 'virtual' but still real bridge between you.

Indra.

[hasayfu]

It may be time to extend the understanding of 'bridging' to include 'target acquisition'. In contact or not, enagement starts the moment you detect a threat, your movements, and the opponents, are part of the 'virtual' but still real bridge between you.

Indra.

Exactly. For me, bridging encompasses all connections. "short bridging" is the moment of contact. In Hung Gar, we have concepts for "long bridging" prior to contact as well. The strike/block techniques are the most common (not only) method to go from long to short.

Note that my use of long and short are my own. As far as I have been taught, it is all "Kui" or bridge.

Going back to my analysis of Subitai's fight vid, the subtle move to his opponent's outside was making use of the "virtual" bridge. If he had attacked from his original position, it would have been easier to be countered. If he had made a large move to the outside, it could have caused an immediate reaction rendering the move moot. This is a fighting concept drilled by Sifu.

[TenTigers]

I guess my question was, did I meet your goal? We could write a book on "short bridging".

yes,
and yes-I'm working on it!:)