How much Hop-Ga is in your Hung-Ga?

[TenTigers]

I personally feel Wong Yun-Lum made a huge contribution to present day Hung-Ga (Wong Fei-Hung line) and I am always researching Hop-Ga to get a better understanding of my art. I don't feel simply saying,"Well, we use gwa,cup, sow, been, etc.." is enough. Hop-Ga is an entire system, and to simply borrow a couple of hands is not the same as really knowing how to best employ these strikes. You must know correct tactics, otherwise the technique is greatly diminished.
How much do you draw from the techniques, training methods of Hop-Ga in your Hung-Ga teaching and training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally feel Wong Yun-Lum made a huge contribution to present day Hung-Ga (Wong Fei-Hung line) and I am always researching Hop-Ga to get a better understanding of my art. I don't feel simply saying,"Well, we use gwa,cup, sow, been, etc.." is enough. Hop-Ga is an entire system, and to simply borrow a couple of hands is not the same as really knowing how to best employ these strikes. You must know correct tactics, otherwise the technique is greatly diminished.
How much do you draw from the techniques, training methods of Hop-Ga in your Hung-Ga teaching and training?

I think that "start big end small" thing is very much Hop-gar, whether it came from it I don't know, but that they share it, yes.
The interception and limb destruction is another thing.

[jdhowland]

TenTigers, I was just about to start a new thread about the crossover in terminology between the Lion's Roar and Hung Ga when I saw this, so I'll throw this question into your topic, instead.

What are the Cantonese terms for basic techniques in the Hung Ga system?

I suspect that much of the terminology for Lama style methods was already in place when it was systematized in the 19th century.

As an example, Hop Ga has:

chyun (piercing)
paau (flinging)
kahp (stamping)
bin (flailing)
chaau (reaping, pulling, gathering)
deng (nailing)
johng (knocking, colliding)
jaau (clawing)
jin (arrow, also called jihk)
chaang jeung (rushing palm)
jin jih (arrow fingers, also called biu)
sou (sweeping)

Kicks include:

daan geuk
paak geuk
tin gong geuk
syuhn fung teui
fuh mei geuk
sou geuk
chat sing teui, etc.,.

Are there more than a few commonalities?

[once ronin]

reverse the position?

How much hung ga did Wong Yan Lum got from his father?

The original Hop in Hop Ga meant a combination of styles.

[lkfmdc]

The original Hop in Hop Ga meant a combination of styles.

NO IT DOES NOT

It means "hero" or "patriot"

俠家

[soulfist]

Wong Yan Lum 王隱林 didnt do Hap Ga 俠家拳, he did Lama 喇嘛派, not the same thing! Wong Yan Lum's disciple Wong Hon Wing 黄漢榮 changed the system and renamed it Hap Ga.

In regards to Hung Ga...

Wong Yan Lum was said to have taught both Wong Kei Ying and Wong Fei Hung.
Wong's teacher Sing Lung 聖龍 was said to have taught Tit Kiu Saam.
So there is that relation.

How much Lama is in Hung Ga?


Technique-wise some. The "chat sing leen waan keun" section of Tiger Crane is basically Lama techniques. The latter half of Ng Ying Ng Hang (5 animals 5 elements) is full of Lama long arm techniques.

Influence-wise much. Lama is most likely what opened up the short tight postures of "old hung ga". You could argue that it was Tit Sin Keun that was the influence, but in my personal opinion Tit Sin Keun was originally not so stretched out, as is found in the many other similar practices in other southern systems.


Wong Fei Hung made a very intelligent system when he combined old hung ga, lama pai, and tit sin keun. Though the techniques are clear from portion to portion the true union is in the posture and way of motion... in my opinion!

[once ronin]

I wasnt there to hear the dialogue when the changes came about but this is what Harry Ng lineage & Chan Dat Fu explained to me:

Wong Yan Lum had these significant student:

Ng Siu Chung & Ng Siu Chan named there forms White Crane Min Lui Jum

His last disciple Choy Yee Gung Lama Loi Batt Moon

Wong Hon Wing Hop Ga Loy Batt Moon

Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

[lkfmdc]

I
Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

俠

That character does NOT mean "combination"

I have seen TONS of actual documents regarding this



For many years, both Wong Yan-Lam and Wong Lam-Hoi used the Lama Pai name and taught essentially the same system. However, the rapid increase in the size of the system inevitably led to divisions. The system also suffered because it was a foreign method. The Republic period was a time of extreme nationalism and few instructors wanted to claim to be teaching a foreign system, especially one the Qing royal guard had practiced.

For this reason, Wong Yan-Lam's number one disciple, Wong Hon-Wing, adopted the name Haap Ga (Knight Family Style) based upon his teacher's nickname and the recommendation of Dr. Sun Yat-Sen. However, most of Wong Lam-Hoi's students did not accept this new name. They simply refused to give more credit to their Si-Baahk (elder uncle) than to their own teacher. In response, Nhg Siu-Chung established the White Crane style (Baahk Hok Pai).



It has NEVER meant "combination"

[lkfmdc]

Also, there are a LOT of lineags that have nothing to do with Choy Yit Gung or Lo Wai Keung who use "Lama Pai"

don't believe the hype

[soulfist]

I wasnt there to hear the dialogue when the changes came about but this is what Harry Ng lineage & Chan Dat Fu explained to me:

Wong Yan Lum had these significant student:

Ng Siu Chung & Ng Siu Chan named there forms White Crane Min Lui Jum

His last disciple Choy Yee Gung Lama Loi Batt Moon

Wong Hon Wing Hop Ga Loy Batt Moon

Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

No, I dont believe this at all. Who ever told you this got their facts confused.

This 合 is Hap meaning combination
This 俠 is Hap meaning knight

The style NEVER was combination, and furthermore is not a combined style!

Same sound but different characters and different meanings, could only be confused by a westerner (no offense)!


Still, Hap Ga is a branch of Lama Pai, and the name Hap Ga simply didnt come into place until Wong Hon Wing 黄漢榮 started using it!

[once ronin]

Not sure of the hype.

The poems in both versions of Loy batt moon verified the lineage to Wong Yan Lum and their level of learning or how much they paid to learn from Wong Yan Lum.

As for Min Loy Jum their is a difference was there with Ng Siu Chan.

Back to the Hung Ga topic, Wong Ping, Wong Yan Lum father was known as Tit Gerk Tung Yan have a more than solid horse stance.

I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.

[jdhowland]

...I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.

It might be enough to say that Wong Yan Lum's approach was eclectic. He had no problem sharing and learning from friends. No one can say what he learned from Wong Ping. But he kept the lama footwork and basic hands.

My estimation is that he was quite conservative in teaching the complete lama fists curriculum, regardless of what he added.

jd

[lkfmdc]

Not sure of the hype.



The "hype" is that Lama Pai comes through Choy Yit Gung's lineage, it does NOT. It is what they were all calling it before the "split"

[lkfmdc]

No, I dont believe this at all. Who ever told you this got their facts confused.

This 合 is Hap meaning combination
This 俠 is Hap meaning knight

The style NEVER was combination, and furthermore is not a combined style!

Same sound but different characters and different meanings, could only be confused by a westerner (no offense)!



THIS!

Please note the characters, note that they don't mean the same thing

[soulfist]

I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.
What does that mean? I thought we determined that Hap Ga has nothing to do with Hung Ga, you are trying to say that Lama is Hap Ga but it isnt.


It might be enough to say that Wong Yan Lum's approach was eclectic. He had no problem sharing and learning from friends. No one can say what he learned from Wong Ping. But he kept the lama footwork and basic hands.
Wong Yan Lum's father was Wong Ping? I thought he learned Lama from Sing Lung... What did he learn from his father?

[jdhowland]

...Wong Yan Lum's father was Wong Ping? I thought he learned Lama from Sing Lung... What did he learn from his father?

As above: "no one can say." Sing Lung was Wong Yan Lum's only known teacher of repute. Anything else is speculation.

[jdhowland]

One thing is clear. As soulfist pointed out, Wong Kei-Ying learned from Wong Yan-Lum. Wong Kei-Ying was also a friend and associate of Wong Yan-Lum. Both retained membership in the Ten Tigers organization. This means to me that Wong Yan Lum had respect for Wong Kei-Ying and his prowess. Kei-Ying wasn't just another student, he was a respected comrade. He did not give up his school to teach Lama Kyuhn, he added to what he already had. It was all good stuff for its time.

[CLFNole]

Not that I have a dog in this fight but "learning" might be over thought as many sifu's exchange ideas & techniques between each other thus "learning" but I don't think anyone would consider Wong Kay Ying a student of Wong Yan Lum. I would venture to guess Wong Kay Ying influenced Wong Yan Lum as well. I think this is universal across syles - CLF, hung fut, jow gar, etc...

[PM]

i have been researching this subject for a long long time - the only sure think is that Hung Ga Kyun is definitelly influenced by Lama paai/Hap Ga/Baak Hok, but when and how, we do not know.

most people quickly assume Wong Yanlam and Wong Keying/Wong Feihung relationship and influence, but so far i have not seen a single reliable Chinese source having a proof. i persdonally think that the Ten Tigers of Gwongdung story is made up much lter by the novelists. Wong Yanlam is such a big name in the South that the bios of Wong Feihung would certainly devote a big part to that - and they do not (just his father Wong Keying and Lam Fuksing are usually mentioned as his teachers, plus the guy who supposedly taught him no shadow kick concept).

old Chinese sources have also no idea- some of them say that the long bridges were adopted by Ji Sin Sim Si after his 3 visits of Gwongdung; the other side of spectrum claims it was Lam Saiwing. one Chinese source even says that Wong Feihung has learned 5 Elements from Lam Fuksing (!) - yes, some of the sources say that one of Tit kiu Saam's Teachers was "Golden Hook"/Bearded Lei, ie. Sing Lung (thnx for Ross sifu for the assistance identifying this person).

in the Tiger and Crane books there is no word about Hap Ga, long bridges are atributed to Fat Ga Lo Hon Kyun (Fat Ga being other name of the so called Tibetan systems? Lo Hon Kyun being a name of the set?)

loads of Hung Kyun masters had some Hap Ga experience - just look at Dang Fong and his sets like Gau Duk Kyun/Gau Ji Lin Waan Kyun, Ho Laptin and Lau Sing Kyun, Lam Saiwing and Sap Ying kyun etc. etc.

Mok Gwailaan lineage has also long bridges in their curriculum, so i personally think that the long bridges were added by Wong Feihung (whenever he has learned them - Chines esources say he has adopted elements of Hap Ga), and later expanded by other masters, who did some Hap Ga here, come CLF there (my sigung told me that our leopard is indeed from CLF). Everything before Wong Feihung is just speculation. i personalyl think that Wong Honwing might have a big influence eg. on Lam Saiwing and othe masters from that place and era.

some other discussion elswhere:

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=904

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1045

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1397

looking forwad to hear more from you guys! research!

[TenTigers]

so..let's take this further.
What drills, training methods, theories, techniques and concepts from
Lama/Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok do you employ in your training?

Personally, I feel it would be wasteful to absorb techniques from such a rich, effective system as this, and only have a few technique that only resemble the art on the surface.
IMHO, there is a lot of wasted potential in Hung-Ga these days. The art has become a mere shadow of its former self.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so..let's take this further.
What drills, training methods, theories, techniques and concepts from
Lama/Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok do you employ in your training?

Personally, I feel it would be wasteful to absorb techniques from such a rich, effective system as this, and only have a few technique that only resemble the art on the surface.
IMHO, there is a lot of wasted potential in Hung-Ga these days. The art has become a mere shadow of its former self.

I agree that HG has become a "shadow" of what it used to be, but I am not sure that just because systems SHARE things that it meas THAT much ( though it does mean something).
I've seen a few different types of Lama/lionsroar and though they obviously share things the are also not "the same".

The one thing that they do share is that they start off "big" and end up "small" ( or long and short if you prefer).

[TenTigers]

agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.

[lkfmdc]

most people quickly assume Wong Yanlam and Wong Keying/Wong Feihung relationship and influence, but so far i have not seen a single reliable Chinese source having a proof.



Lam Jo knew about it, and talked about it a lot, heard that from YC Wong




i persdonally think that the Ten Tigers of Gwongdung story is made up



It certainly wasn't like the Shaw Bros movie and it wasn't really an "organization" but it certainly DID exist

There doesn't seem much controversy in saying well established teacers of the same period influeenced eachother

I had a lot of friends from local NYC traditions that I picked stuff up from (Ying Jow Pai, Chat Sing Tong Long, Bak mei, Siu Lam, etc)




old Chinese sources have also no idea- some of them say that the long bridges were adopted by Ji Sin Sim Si after his 3 visits of Gwongdung; the other side of spectrum claims it was Lam Saiwing. one Chinese source even says that Wong Feihung has learned 5 Elements from Lam Fuksing (!) -



By the time anyone even remotely literate began to care about stuff like this, the true story was long gone and lost

Having done Hung from a Dang Fong lineage and "village" hung from a specifically NON WFH lineage, no doubt the changes came from around the WKY / WFH period

See below for more




yes, some of the sources say that one of Tit kiu Saam's Teachers was "Golden Hook"/Bearded Lei, ie. Sing Lung (thnx for Ross sifu for the assistance identifying this person).



I do believe that Sing Lung was ONE of TKS's teachers. Thus some of the "long bridge" in Hung came from here

Other came from Wong Yan Lam

Other probably came from northern systems, from CLF and stuff that the Wong family had access to




in the Tiger and Crane books there is no word about Hap Ga, long bridges are atributed to Fat Ga Lo Hon Kyun (Fat Ga being other name of the so called Tibetan systems? Lo Hon Kyun being a name of the set?)



politics (and lack of details)

edit: "Faht Ga" means "Buddhist system" and as far as I have seen ,never meant ONE specific system...

Three sequences in Fu Hok come almost move for move from "Siu Lo Han" so maybe you are correct

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.

Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.
There isn't just enough done it seems.
I don't mean competition or that, no ( though that would be the easiest way), I mean taking your HK and using it in a full contact "no rules" environment to see what works and what doesn't ( for you) and why.

[lkfmdc]

Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.



not WHAT you do

it is HOW you do it

[PM]

Ross sifu, thnx a lot, i am saving the info to my Hap Ga & Hung Kyun file

stupid me, i did not ask my sigung (Lam Jou) about it, but next time i will!

[once ronin]

Who these people were can be traced back to the poems in Loy Batt Moon.

Gum Gong gee and Hung ga's kiu sao also telles you who these guys are.

Dang Gum Toe of Guangzhou was a Hung ga teacher, his son leanred his Hung Ga but Dang Gum Toe also was fortunate to have his son learn Hop Ga.

Today Dang Jan Kwong promotes Hop Ga not so much Hung Ga.

Here is talks about the Gum Gong gee hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQkO2H8J2sM&playnext=1&list=PL130EAD7272E425CA

[Violent Designs]

glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers

[David Jamieson]

I believe the answer is zero.

At least for me. I realized the distinct lack of that flavour when I started learning another style of black tiger. It was decidedly more clf and hop gar in flavour.

[TenTigers]

glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers
lookin forward to it :)

[TenTigers]

jeez, it's like pulling teeth....
ok, so...what footwork drills do you use when utilizing the chut sing lien wan kuen?
How do you practice it-I mean, besides verbatim from the set?

to get the ball rolling, when we drill gwa/cup continuously (referred to as figure eight punching)across the floor, we start in a straight line. Once the student has mastered this, we zig-zag the footwork.
Another drill is we surround the student, holding pads, and he attacks with gwa/cup. Each person in turn(randomly)calls out his name and he must turn and strike. The pad holders are moving as he follows.

[Frost]

None in the village hung gar i learned...but then it was blended with CLF so who knows....anyway im just a MMA guy these days so ill learn you TCMA guys to share the fun...........!

[TenTigers]

ok, no responses..wtf is happening with this forum?
ok, here's a question for all you Hop-Ga/Lama,Bak Hok guys.
Do you have any specific "entry techniques," i.e."Bridging the gap" techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?

[Indrafist]

ok, no responses..wtf is happening with this forum?
ok, here's a question for all you Hop-Ga/Lama,Bak Hok guys.
Do you have any specific "entry techniques," i.e."Bridging the gap" techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?

Some Tibetan stylists are more principle led, rather than by technique.
The principle determining the technique. Some but by no means all.
If principle led then Chon (ruthlessness/destruction) is a teleological construct that anticpates its end point: you move to completion - the destruction (ruthlessly) of the 'target'. Chuen is penetration - of a line or of space. It refers to movement into or from a space to break right through. Jeet is interception, before or on the cusp of a change in structure, It arrests, and disrupts. Sim, is evasion and may be passive, away from contact, or active by operating in the gaps in structure and information processing of the opponent. These principles lead the techniques. The end result can look like Hung Kuen, or Lama Pai or anything else.

Indra.

[jdhowland]

...Do you have any specific "entry techniques," i.e."Bridging the gap" techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?

In real situations I'm always reactive because I don't go around attacking people, obviously.

For in-house sparring I like to be aggressive just to get things started. At kicking range a jab is not believable as a means of testing your opponent's response so I like to use the skipping step found in both bak hok and hop ga. I raise one knee as if to kick, then skip from the platform leg to fake a jab (chyun). Whatever follows is based on the reaction I get. It works pretty well sometimes but gets predictable fast. I'm a hair over 6' so I usually attack over the guard. Against someone taller I try to go under and side door.

I also like to jam with the left hand and follow with a straight right backfist (kahm sau/ gwa cheui). Doesn't require so much waist turning and is hard to predict. I learned this originally in hop ga, then was later shown the same thing by my bak sing teacher. A fully extended gwa works okay, too, to get things started. If the range is right I follow immediately with chyun. If not, it's only a feint, anyway.

[jdhowland]

...These principles lead the techniques. The end result can look like Hung Kuen, or Lama Pai or anything else.

Good points.

Indra, it's good to see you posting here again.

jd

[SteveLau]

TenTigers,

As far as Hop Ga techniques, the five elements are included in my HG training. They are good stuffs and important. Some of them (fire, water, earth) are emphasied on formation, others (gold, wood) are on shape.

So I think the following Hop Ga techniques are imported into Wong Fei Hung's style, which is what I am now training:

paau (flinging)

jin (arrow, also called jihk)

chaau (reaping, pulling, gathering)




KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

Do you have any specific "entry techniques," i.e."Bridging the gap" techniques,
I'm not a Hung-Ga guy but I think the following steps are important during entering. Always try to fight battle in your opponent's space and not in your space.

You should:

- build leg bridge first.
- build temporary arm bridge.
- build permanent arm bridge.
- destroy arm bridge, cross arm bridge, enter, and
- do your stuff ...

[once ronin]

Hope things re calmer:

In the Lion's Roar couplet, it specifies, Hop Gar's combinations?

The original Hop was combination changed to hero.

[lkfmdc]

Hope things re calmer:

In the Lion's Roar couplet, it specifies, Hop Gar's combinations?

The original Hop was combination changed to hero.

NO

you can say it over and over again, but that doesn't mean it is true :rolleyes:

[Indrafist]

The confusion might come from Chan Tat Fu's use of 'Hap' to mean Join Together for his branch of Lion's Roar: "Sai Jong Hap-Gar Si Ji Hao" (as a student of Au Wing Ning - TWC and Lama, and a student of two disciples: - one of Wong Yan Lum and one of Wong Hon Wing for Hop-Gar). As far as I know this useage is specific to Chan Tat Fu's line. I haven't heard that Chan Tat Fu says that Hop was originally Hap, only that he uses the term Hap to signify the unity of the branches he learnt from. A student of mine was told this in person by Chan Tat Fu when visiting him in HK.

Indra.

[lkfmdc]

I've looked at as much info on this subject as anyone (oh, come on, let's be real, I've looked at more of the info than 99% of the people on here!) and it is VERY CLEAR that the original "Hop Gar" was "Knight Family" and NEVER "combination". If you say that one particular lineage uses "combination" well OK, but "once ronin" should NOT be saying "oh, it's always been combination" because it is completely untrue and we've politely said that only to have him come back and try to "poo poo" us.....

[Indrafist]

I've looked at as much info on this subject as anyone (oh, come on, let's be real, I've looked at more of the info than 99% of the people on here!) and it is VERY CLEAR that the original "Hop Gar" was "Knight Family" and NEVER "combination". If you say that one particular lineage uses "combination" well OK, but "once ronin" should NOT be saying "oh, it's always been combination" because it is completely untrue and we've politely said that only to have him come back and try to "poo poo" us.....

You need to take that up with Once Ronin.
My post was to try to suggest where his viewpoint may have come from, and an explanation for how (potentially) an error or misunderstanding may have arisen. He has said to me that he visited Chan Tat Fu at his home address in HK and that he was the source of his information. My student also visited him (Chan Tat Fu) and was told what I have said in my previous post. To me there's enough room for a potential misunderstanding. My line originates with Chan Tat Fu, who is a highly respected HK SiFu, and I was told back in 1973 that it was 'Sai Jong Hap Gar Si-Ji-Hao'. The associated or joined family (Hap) not referring to an alternate name for Hop-Gar but to a specific blend of his own learning of the three branches: Lama, TWC and HOP-Gar - that passed thru Chan-Tat-Fu and that, that name was how he wished his people to refer to it. Nothing more, nothing less. The UK branch from him most often call it Hop-Gar, I have done myself, it saves on explanation, and Hop-Gar is a part of it.

[lkfmdc]

You need to take that up with Once Ronin.



Well, HE was the one I've corrected two (three?) times already :D




My post was to try to suggest where his viewpoint may have come from, and an explanation for how (potentially) an error or misunderstanding may have arisen.




Understood completely, but doesn't negate my point. Several of us have tried POLITELY to correct him and he comes off with an "attitude". Maybe that isn't how he intends, but it is how he comes off none the less




To me there's enough room for a potential misunderstanding.



which is why you should always FIRST try to be polite and clear. But when you have explained yourself, posted the characters, etc and someone still retorts in what might be characterized as a "snotty" attitude you have the situation here, am I being clear?




My line originates with Chan Tat Fu, who is a highly respected HK SiFu,



Aware who he is, never said he wasn't respected. Again, NOT the issue here

[Indrafist]

Well, HE was the one I've corrected two (three?) times already :D



Understood completely, but doesn't negate my point. Several of us have tried POLITELY to correct him and he comes off with an "attitude". Maybe that isn't how he intends, but it is how he comes off none the less



which is why you should always FIRST try to be polite and clear. But when you have explained yourself, posted the characters, etc and someone still retorts in what might be characterized as a "snotty" attitude you have the situation here, am I being clear?



Aware who he is, never said he wasn't respected. Again, NOT the issue here


No worries, my bust for trying to offer an explanation for something that had nothing to do with me. The intention was good however.

[lkfmdc]

No worries, my bust for trying to offer an explanation for something that had nothing to do with me. The intention was good however.

understood completely, be well

[once ronin]

Wow.......I have been correct 2 or 3 times by which head of the Hop Gar?

I have my point and fact for all to read. There are couplet philosphy of Hop Gar to read.

[lkfmdc]

Wow.......I have been correct 2 or 3 times by which head of the Hop Gar?



Maybe you don't realize that around 90% of the material available in English about the Lion's Roar tradition comes from ME

Because I spent more than a DECADE translating stuff from Chinese

I have read and seen more documents on this than 99% of the forum, certainly MORE THAN YOU

I've seen copies of the Lama Ching, have you? :rolleyes:

Again, in this tradition you are NO ONE, and I'm one of the primary translators and historians

The fact you have nothing but a childish snotty attitude shows how "deep" your understanding is

[once ronin]

You saying only your information is valid because you read it somehwere?

No one else's information is vaild besides your?

We are nobodies because we are not following your information?

You should put up your teachers name and address so everyone can ask him about your's only vaild information.

[lkfmdc]

You should put up your teachers name and address so everyone can ask him about your's only vaild information.

you have just made a complete fool of yourself

maybe someone will explain it to you :rolleyes:

[Frost]

you have just made a complete fool of yourself

maybe someone will explain it to you :rolleyes:

lol if i knew how to post a face palm id do so right about now

if theres one person on this forum whos teachers are well known and whos lineage cant be questioned its Ross

[jo]

Maybe you don't realize that around 90% of the material available in English about the Lion's Roar tradition comes from ME

Because I spent more than a DECADE translating stuff from Chinese

I have read and seen more documents on this than 99% of the forum, certainly MORE THAN YOU

I've seen copies of the Lama Ching, have you? :rolleyes:

Again, in this tradition you are NO ONE, and I'm one of the primary translators and historians

The fact you have nothing but a childish snotty attitude shows how "deep" your understanding is

Where does Steven "Indrafist" Richards fit in?

-jo

[Mulong]

A simply notion, there is opinion, which granted everyone possesses and then there is knowledge which few possess, because it comes from years of doing research on a particular subject; therefore, the latter is on David side like it or not… ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where does Steven "Indrafist" Richards fit in?

-jo

The southern forum is NOT what it used to be in the past.
Personal attacks, like those that have happened in the past, will not be tolerated here.
Just an FYI for everyone.

[once ronin]

A forum is a place for everyone to share what they experience or knowledge.

Not to take sides and force opinions on each other.

In a arguement between the Catholics and Christians as to who is right and wrong in their history, both are written, who knows who's right and who's wrong?

[lkfmdc]

(watch me make another reference that goes WAY over his head)

Are you going to argue American colonial history with Gordon Wood also? :rolleyes:

(he won't even think to google it)

[Mulong]

Now, now LoL :D