is this facts?

[YiQuanOne]

There are numerous people willing to stand up and say that thay guy is a really great yiquan master.

I say he isn't.
You think he is.

Once you've decided that the video itself is evidence enough, then there's no point in arguing about the video- as, the same video is both evidence to me that he doesn't know yiquan, and evidence to you that he does.

It doesn't really matter. Whichever one of us is true will get the most benefit from what we saw in the video - so at least one of us will get something out of the discussion!


Who cares what someone wants to call it.

I thought the thread is more along the line of what's going on?

It just looks like he is neutralizing, borrowing, and giving back with interest.

[Scott R. Brown]

All you're saying is that it's possible to push someone over if they're off balance. Apart from that, all we see in the video is a kid jumping backwards of his own volition.

That's it - that's all there is in that video.

Duh! I have already said that before!

You said you couldn't explain it!

I explained it in terms of biomechanics! The specifics of why it works instead of simply stating the conclusion!

That is what is under discussion! Is it biomechanics or magic (Qi)? It is biomechanics! And I presented an argument for WHY it is biomechanics as was requested!

[YiQuanOne]

Where do you think the programme is, if not in the internal??

Program can be anywhere, I did not say program was in the internal, only that internal has access to it, it could be on a cloud.

[Scott R. Brown]

who cares for opinions? who cares if it is in youtube or not, who cares who is great or poor, who cares on name dropping? I dont.
what is the facts based on technical principle that is the bottom line. that is always my view.

So, when one says it is good, one also needs to say based on what technical principle? so when one says it isnt, one also needs to say based on what technical principle. it is just simply describe the facts.

And THAT is what I just did!

[Hendrik]

nite rains are cold, raindrops penetrated the pictures.

turing my head (trying to remember the past) is like a dream, I may not move (with so much emotion).

I look at you with fascination, you are in the color fading picture.

like a flower not yet turns red, like ice not yet frozen

like there are so many words but I may not understand any of them.

--

I would prefer that just say I miss you, and that is it.

:D


it is not the miss, it is sad that things fades this fast.

and most dont even know those stuffs exist and how it is in real life. but keep arguing something totally off....


故人已散 留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

[YiQuanOne]

Duh! I have already said that before!

You said you couldn't explain it!

I explained it in terms of biomechanics! The specifics of why it works instead of simply stating the conclusion!

That is what is under discussion! Is it biomechanics or magic (Qi)? It is biomechanics! And I presented an argument for WHY it is biomechanics as was requested!

It s done with the "Yi mind" leading the "Qi", I don't think our science is a a level to explain what allows this to manifest.
Just like science knows there is gravity, but cannot find the medium used by gravity.

Science can't find the medium of the mind.

[Scott R. Brown]

It s done with the "Yi mind" leading the "Qi", I don't think our science is a a level to explain what allows this to manifest.
Just like science knows there is gravity, but cannot find the medium used by gravity.

Science can't find the medium of the mind.

Technically EVERYTHING we do is from the mind!

It is accomplished with simple biomechanics as I have illustrated above. I have done similar things myself many times against inexperienced people!

It is easy against the inexperienced and the compliant. Not so easy against an experienced opponent. That is because they can listen to your force and redirect it away. My friends and I used to mess with each other all the time when we were practicing these kinds of things!

It is fun trying to mess up your partner while he is trying to accomplish the skill. It becomes a chess game! We used to laugh so hard cuz it is so fun to do!

[Miqi]

It s done with the "Yi mind" leading the "Qi", I don't think our science is a a level to explain what allows this to manifest.
Just like science knows there is gravity, but cannot find the medium used by gravity.

Science can't find the medium of the mind.

Actually, it's just a kid jumping backwards because he thinks that's what he's supposed to do.

The idea of 'yi leads the qi' is quite a simple physical thing, very down to earth, and not at all anything that would lead to kids flying up in the air like that.

I'm sorry - I know you have appointed a lot of expectations about what yiquan and CMA theory really means, but to progress at all you need now to steadily dis-appoint all those expectations.

The yi leads the qi, translated in to yiquan theory, simply means that your focus, your intent, and very often your visualisation, is employed to intensify and engage hunyuan li and movement. In other words, from the description I gave you of hunyuan li, which you didn't recognise, you begin to move in basic movements - arms lifting, etc. - at the same time maintaining the 'feeling' of resistance. Imagination, focus and intent intensify the activity.

That's it. But it's implications are more profound than the fancy theory that you've appointed. Your theory sounds fancy, but it's dead - it leads no where - it gives no skills. And I think we're going to find that out - if we dare take all this to the next level. You film yourself making a bag move with your method, and I'll film me making a bag move with mine. Talk us through the method,and I'll talk us through mine - and then there will be less to take on board in terms of words, and some solid demonstration of what we're talking about.

My experience is that the Cheuk Fungs of this world simply won't do this, because they simply can't - but they'll call it vulgar and pointless, and so on.

But you're not Cheuk Fung. Your just someone trying to honestly find out the truth. So, dare to do it?

[Hendrik]

just edited

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113225&postcount=245

[Miqi]

Hendrik you too. And Scot as well! Let's see where we really all stand, in terms of our power generation theory in practical terms - if anyone of you guys who have been arguing for weeks without showing yourselves finally dares, then so do I!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik you too. And Scot as well! Let's see where we really all stand, in terms of our power generation theory in practical terms - if anyone of you guys who have been arguing for weeks without showing yourselves finally dares, then so do I!


to answer you, I dont dares at all. since in Kung fu world, one mountain always has another mountain higher.



for me, I am looking at if things is implementable with basic principle.

and until the basic principle is clear and could be implemented.

Youtube doesnt show the core.

and up to now, non has talk about the basic power generataion principle but all kinds of opinions.


BTW.

for me,
what Cheuk Fung shows in his demo is not just six directional forces or hun Yuan li but more, more which his body tell. and unless one could get to this details and pin point those extra the rest is not meaningful.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hendrik you too. And Scot as well! Let's see where we really all stand, in terms of our power generation theory in practical terms - if anyone of you guys who have been arguing for weeks without showing yourselves finally dares, then so do I!

It is rather inconvenient for me to do such a thing since I no longer train at a school or have any training partners. If you think it is valuable in contributing to this discussion, why wait for us to post a video? Step up to the plate and provide an example for us yourself.

I do have an open door policy for anyone who would like to come for a visit and train with me to our mutual benefit!

If you would like you may educate me on the principles you apply to your martial arts. I will start by being compliant so that you may demonstrate your principles and then as we progress I will become more resistant so we may examine how the principles hold up under more and more realistic conditions, Then we may learn and grow together.:)

[Scott R. Brown]

to answer you, I dont dares at all. since in Kung fu world, one mountain always has another mountain higher.



for me, I am looking at if things is implementable with basic principle.

and until the basic principle is clear and could be implemented.

Youtube doesnt show the core.

and up to now, non has talk about the basic power generataion principle but all kinds of opinions.

Not true! Years ago I posted a rather detailed description of how do generate power. It was in this section too, so feel free to perform a search and bring it forward into this thread for discussion!:)

[Hendrik]

Not true! Years ago I posted a rather detailed description of how do generate power. It was in this section too, so feel free to perform a search and bring it forward into this thread for discussion!:)



ok. to you all experts.

so how Cheuk Fung generate his power?

dont tell me it is biomechanics or Hun Yuan Li or Qi.. :D
Those doesnt said anything at all.

what is the mechanics? and how many of them? how to evoke?

[Scott R. Brown]

ok. to you all experts.

so how Cheuk Fung generate his power?

dont tell me it is biomechanics or Hun Yuan Li or Qi.. :D
Those doesnt said anything at all.

what is the mechanics? and how many of them? how to evoke?

Did you even read my post above where I parsed the first push?

[Hendrik]

Did you even read my post above where I parsed the first push?


sure,

ask Miqi and everyone how their view on your post.

[Miqi]

to answer you, I dont dares at all. since in Kung fu world, one mountain always has another mountain higher.



for me, I am looking at if things is implementable with basic principle.

and until the basic principle is clear and could be implemented.

Youtube doesnt show the core.

and up to now, non has talk about the basic power generataion principle but all kinds of opinions.


BTW.

for me,
what Cheuk Fung shows in his demo is not just six directional forces or hun Yuan li but more, more which his body tell. and unless one could get to this details and pin point those extra the rest is not meaningful.

So one is out. Youtube can't show the core - but it can show what you can really do and how you make a bag move, much more effectively than just talking about it. It's not sparring, just a simple demonstration of your body mechanics.

I don't want to embarrass you - you are out, that's that.

[Miqi]

It is rather inconvenient for me to do such a thing since I no longer train at a school or have any training partners.


I didn't say 'on a training partner' - for the very good reason that none of us can agree whether the training partners in these videos are compliant and jumping back or not. I said 'on a bag'. So, unless it's inconvenient for you to hit a bag...




If you think it is valuable in contributing to this discussion, why wait for us to post a video? Step up to the plate and provide an example for us yourself.

I will. If eryone dares, I dare. If no one else dares, I dare.

However, the issue I was trying to get us all round was that people can still just hide behind closed doors and criticise and, even after I post a video, still say 'but that's not the qi power that I do...' and we're actually no better off. Only when everyone is forced to be honest can we get to the heart of this discussion.

No matter - two are out already. I don't want to embarrass you - it doesn't matter.




I do have an open door policy for anyone who would like to come for a visit and train with me to our mutual benefit!

If you would like you may educate me on the principles you apply to your martial arts. I will start by being compliant so that you may demonstrate your principles and then as we progress I will become more resistant so we may examine how the principles hold up under more and more realistic conditions, Then we may learn and grow together.:)

If only that were possible, but we live many thousands of miles apart. We can just as easily explain our principles in a video. But, doesn't matter.

Yiquanone, how about you? Dare or not dare?

[YiQuanOne]

Actually, it's just a kid jumping backwards because he thinks that's what he's supposed to do.

The idea of 'yi leads the qi' is quite a simple physical thing, very down to earth, and not at all anything that would lead to kids flying up in the air like that.

I'm sorry - I know you have appointed a lot of expectations about what yiquan and CMA theory really means, but to progress at all you need now to steadily dis-appoint all those expectations.

The yi leads the qi, translated in to yiquan theory, simply means that your focus, your intent, and very often your visualisation, is employed to intensify and engage hunyuan li and movement. In other words, from the description I gave you of hunyuan li, which you didn't recognise, you begin to move in basic movements - arms lifting, etc. - at the same time maintaining the 'feeling' of resistance. Imagination, focus and intent intensify the activity.

That's it. But it's implications are more profound than the fancy theory that you've appointed. Your theory sounds fancy, but it's dead - it leads no where - it gives no skills. And I think we're going to find that out - if we dare take all this to the next level. You film yourself making a bag move with your method, and I'll film me making a bag move with mine. Talk us through the method,and I'll talk us through mine - and then there will be less to take on board in terms of words, and some solid demonstration of what we're talking about.

My experience is that the Cheuk Fungs of this world simply won't do this, because they simply can't - but they'll call it vulgar and pointless, and so on.

But you're not Cheuk Fung. Your just someone trying to honestly find out the truth. So, dare to do it?


The kid is not jumping because he thinks he should, watch the video, he shows that when he does not do it right the kid goes nowhere, that is not him not having room, he is showing that the kid won't go if he does not do it correctly.

If you think this is fake, it is because you have never had this done to you.

[Hendrik]

So one is out.


Youtube can't show the core - but it can show what you can really do and how you make a bag move, much more effectively than just talking about it.

It's not sparring, just a simple demonstration of your body mechanics.


I don't want to embarrass you - you are out, that's that.



Great.

I let you guys shows up in the youtube and learn from you all.

[YiQuanOne]

Technically EVERYTHING we do is from the mind!

It is accomplished with simple biomechanics as I have illustrated above. I have done similar things myself many times against inexperienced people!

It is easy against the inexperienced and the compliant. Not so easy against an experienced opponent. That is because they can listen to your force and redirect it away. My friends and I used to mess with each other all the time when we were practicing these kinds of things!

It is fun trying to mess up your partner while he is trying to accomplish the skill. It becomes a chess game! We used to laugh so hard cuz it is so fun to do!

So what are you listening for?

[Hendrik]

But you're not Cheuk Fung. Your just someone trying to honestly find out the truth.

So, dare to do it?



My view is simple,

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113093&postcount=207

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113260&postcount=264


if one cant even read what Cheuk Fung does,
what is the point of placing one in youtube and explain Yiquan body mechanics?
one doesnt know anyway?



if one can read what Cheuk Fung does, then there is no need for the making of any youtube and explain body mechanics, because one can clearly using Cheuk Fung's youtube to describe what it is to very specific.




what do you think?

[Scott R. Brown]

I didn't say 'on a training partner' - for the very good reason that none of us can agree whether the training partners in these videos are compliant and jumping back or not. I said 'on a bag'. So, unless it's inconvenient for you to hit a bag...

I will. If eryone dares, I dare. If no one else dares, I dare.

However, the issue I was trying to get us all round was that people can still just hide behind closed doors and criticise and, even after I post a video, still say 'but that's not the qi power that I do...' and we're actually no better off. Only when everyone is forced to be honest can we get to the heart of this discussion.

No matter - two are out already. I don't want to embarrass you - it doesn't matter.

If only that were possible, but we live many thousands of miles apart. We can just as easily explain our principles in a video. But, doesn't matter.

Yiquanone, how about you? Dare or not dare?

Come and hang a bag in my apartment and I'll provide you with a demonstration of hitting the bag using biomechanics then


So what are you listening for?

Listening is a metaphor for feeling your opponent force vectors. The more sensitive your listening skills the quicker your reactions will be to the slightest movement and resistance of your opponent.

For example: if I push against your shoulder and you resist, you were listening to my push and responded with resistance. If I push one your shoulder and you give way, you listened to my force and emptied space, gave way.

When a pair are engaged in physical touching as in push hands or similar exercises, you are "feeling" for the resistance and the non-resistance of your opponent and responding to it as he is responding to yours. That is why it is like a chess match, or a game of strategy, you are trying to get your opponent to over commit his force in order to take advantage of it to your benefit. But you must "feel" for the opponent's commitment and respond with an appropriate techniques as well. It is generally most efficient to attack a weakness, rather than a strength, of your opponent.

Every movement creates a weakness somewhere, if your opponent is skilled he will know where to attack when you commit yourself!

[Scott R. Brown]

Certain physical responses are good "tells" for your opponent being in a vulnerable position. Anything you do that can get him to raise a shoulder backward or dip a shoulder forward means his center is beginning to move into instability. If you encourage that movement with a follow through you will unbalance your opponent.

[YiQuanOne]

Come and hang a bag in my apartment and I'll provide you with a demonstration of hitting the bag using biomechanics then



Listening is a metaphor for feeling your opponent force vectors. The more sensitive your listening skills the quicker your reactions will be to the slightest movement and resistance of your opponent.

For example: if I push against your shoulder and you resist, you were listening to my push and responded with resistance. If I push one your shoulder and you give way, you listened to my force and emptied space, gave way.

When a pair are engaged in physical touching as in push hands or similar exercises, you are "feeling" for the resistance and the non-resistance of your opponent and responding to it as he is responding to yours. That is why it is like a chess match, or a game of strategy, you are trying to get your opponent to over commit his force in order to take advantage of it to your benefit. But you must "feel" for the opponent's commitment and respond with an appropriate techniques as well. It is generally most efficient to attack a weakness, rather than a strength, of your opponent.

Every movement creates a weakness somewhere, if your opponent is skilled he will know where to attack when you commit yourself!

Yes, I agree, thanks for the post.

[Scott R. Brown]

The kid is not jumping because he thinks he should, watch the video, he shows that when he does not do it right the kid goes nowhere, that is not him not having room, he is showing that the kid won't go if he does not do it correctly.

If you think this is fake, it is because you have never had this done to you.

It looks like a jump because he is pushing himself back in an awkward position. His butt is in front of this shoulders in the backward direction. In order to not land on his butt he must jump with the push, except he is pushing himself after the instructor gets him started!

This is something you can try yourself as well. Bend over about 45*, or a little less, and have someone shove you, if you do not move your feet by stepping backwards and lowering your center of gravity, you must jump in order to keep from landing on your butt. Again, simple biomechanics!

Edit: BTW you must stay in the bent position after the shove or the demonstration does not work. If you just allow the shove to stand you up, you have adsorbed the energy, the energy must be transferred down into the hips!

[wenshu]

Apparently Yi Quan is very popular in the NBA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlFMT88acHw&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wI0TV9hyw&feature=player_embedded#at=40


Pay attention at 0:31 and the 1:00, the student obviously lifts his lead foot in anticipation of the "technique" thereby allowing himself to be pushed backwards. Jumping back also adds a little dramatic flair.


Is that real?

why can he do that?

What is the mechanics?
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/filmgirl84/tumblr_lixxtuox681qd3url.gif?t=1305640113

[Scott R. Brown]

Pay attention at 0:31 and the 1:00, the student obviously lifts his lead foot in anticipation of the "technique" thereby allowing himself to be pushed backwards. Jumping back also adds a little dramatic flair.

Yes! My first pic is just before he raises his front foot. I attribute that to the instructor pushing him. As the instructor moves forward he starts the student's momentum backwards and of course the first thing you will do is raise that front foot.

Here are the immediate four frames in sequence:

[YouKnowWho]

allowing himself to be pushed backwards. Jumping back also adds a little dramatic flair.

If you can control your opponent's legs, not only your oppponent cannot step back, he will fall right below your knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR__poILX0

My question are:

Why do you want to push your opponent back instead of to throw him down?

[Scott R. Brown]

If you can control your opponent's legs, not only your oppponent cannot step back, he will fall right below your knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR__poILX0

My question are:

- Why do you want to push your opponent back instead of to throw him down?
- Why do we hardly see any "internal" master used his leg to control his opponent's legs?

This same demo setup may be used to throw him to the ground.

Suppress the student's left elbow pulling it slightly forward, elevate the right elbow along the line of the bone to the shoulder which will elevate the shoulder, step back with your right foot as you perform these two movements and turn to your right by pivoting and the opponent will go down on their head, or into a roll if they know what they are doing!

[Miqi]

The kid is not jumping because he thinks he should, watch the video, he shows that when he does not do it right the kid goes nowhere, that is not him not having room, he is showing that the kid won't go if he does not do it correctly.

If you think this is fake, it is because you have never had this done to you.

Enough. Do you dare show your level or not?

[rett]

Interesting isnt it? hahaha

so why is that?

Why I can't apply it? Not enough practice time under my belt.

When I look at that video it's pretty easy to understand what's happening and how it works (in general physical terms) if you've been in a situation where people are training that way. However actually applying it is like the difference between knowing that the strings vibrate on a guitar and being able to play.

[donjitsu2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb5UJgLVz84&feature=fvwrel

2:23 - 2:46

[rett]

internal ism

is saying yes to soft power.

but not saying good bye to hard power.


I like that.:)

[rett]

All you're saying is that it's possible to push someone over if they're off balance.

The skill is in getting the other person off balance. What we're seeing in that video, IMO, is a drill. Just a way of practicing receiving an opponent and changing the force so that the opponent is off balance.

I agree that the kid pushing himself away. He's not jumping away, it's more like he pushes against a wall or a springy ball and the energy reflects.

It's a way to train keeping your good structure and breaking opponents structure. Of course the opponent is compliant. It's a cooperative drill to train a specific skill. It's not fight training, just skill training.

[Miqi]

My view is simple,

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113093&postcount=207

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113260&postcount=264


if one cant even read what Cheuk Fung does,
what is the point of placing one in youtube and explain Yiquan body mechanics?
one doesnt know anyway?



if one can read what Cheuk Fung does, then there is no need for the making of any youtube and explain body mechanics, because one can clearly using Cheuk Fung's youtube to describe what it is to very specific.




what do you think?

When I meet Cheuk Fung, then I'll deal with Cheuk Fung.

It's ok - I don't want to embarrass you or anyone - I know you are searching honestly, and trying to find the meaning of a lot of information, video and otherwise.

We are all embarrassed to show our level, me too. We all believe that CMA has so much more to offer than ourselves - we believe in it, beyond ourselves, and don't want to suggest ourselves as its representatives.

It doesn't matter. I'll show you what I mean.

[Miqi]

Come and hang a bag in my apartment and I'll provide you with a demonstration of hitting the bag using biomechanics then



I see. Please don't be embarrassed - many of us enjoy just shooting the breeze on a forum and don't really want to show ourselves 'in action'.

[Miqi]

The skill is in getting the other person off balance. What we're seeing in that video, IMO, is a drill. Just a way of practicing receiving an opponent and changing the force so that the opponent is off balance.

I agree that the kid pushing himself away. He's not jumping away, it's more like he pushes against a wall or a springy ball and the energy reflects.

It's a way to train keeping your good structure and breaking opponents structure. Of course the opponent is compliant. It's a cooperative drill to train a specific skill. It's not fight training, just skill training.

No. It's simply a hoax. Everyone wants their unreasonable expectations to be true - but if you want the real truth, you must be ruthlessly honest, and disappoint your expectations. This is not real yiquan.

[Hendrik]

Why I can't apply it? Not enough practice time under my belt.

When I look at that video it's pretty easy to understand what's happening and how it works (in general physical terms) if you've been in a situation where people are training that way.

However actually applying it is like the difference between knowing that the strings vibrate on a guitar and being able to play.



my view is,

you know, going direct to the point,



up to now, all the reply posted here about Fung's demonstration is scratching the surface only.

you cant apply it because you were not shown the keys of what Fung is doing. it is in the video but you dont see it.

So, you could put lots and lots of time and based on what you think you see, you all not be able to do it because the missing keys.

That is a classical case of the mind think it knows but it doesnt. the mind think it is totally logical but it is wrong.

These types of things putting lots of time doesnt help at all and infact is wasting of time.

[Scott R. Brown]

I see. Please don't be embarrassed - many of us enjoy just shooting the breeze on a forum and don't really want to show ourselves 'in action'.

When I have something impressive enough to show the world I will "consider" posting it! Hitting a bag is rather basic. When I can do 10 pullups with 100# sometime next year I might be willing to post that, or if I ever get my kicks back up to 4 per second, maybe. You know, something impressive. Hitting a bag is not impressive! Even an amateur boxer can hit a bag better than most MAists can.

Although I have not hit a bag in years, I have had times in my life where I have hit the bag 10 rounds a day. So, feel free to show us your bag hitting skills if you wish. I will be happy to correct any form flaws I perceive!

[Hendrik]

No. It's simply a hoax.

Everyone wants their unreasonable expectations to be true - but if you want the real truth, you must be ruthlessly honest, and disappoint your expectations.

This is not real yiquan.




For decades now,
I always saw Fung when I go to City of Ten Thousand buddhas, we both are Buddhist brothers.

I actually disagree with you on your saying Fung is not doing real Yiquan.


In fact, Fung is using Yiquan power generation in the youtube. eventhough it is a demo with his student without real figthing exchanging, Fung is demonstrating Yiquan in an authentic way, as in China.

Fung has handle in many things in additional to the Hu Yuan Li. those can be clearly seen in his demo.

I wonder why have you not comment on these keys even I keep asking everyone to comment in my previous three posts?

[Hendrik]

The skill is in getting the other person off balance. What we're seeing in that video, IMO, is a drill. Just a way of practicing receiving an opponent and changing the force so that the opponent is off balance.

I agree that the kid pushing himself away. He's not jumping away, it's more like he pushes against a wall or a springy ball and the energy reflects.

It's a way to train keeping your good structure and breaking opponents structure. Of course the opponent is compliant. It's a cooperative drill to train a specific skill. It's not fight training, just skill training.



What you missed is the key of Yiquan power generation with multi-dimensional force vectors and fast acceleration.

Sure, the demo is not like fighthing the Iceman in MMA, but one needs to identify those Yiquan engine to know what is it and its power capability.

until you know what engine, your reasoning would be off.

[Scott R. Brown]

my view is,

you know, going direct to the point,

up to now, all the reply posted here about Fung's demonstration is scratching the surface only.

you cant apply it because you were not shown the keys of what Fung is doing. it is in the video but you dont see it.

So, you could put lots and lots of time and based on what you think you see, you all not be able to do it because the missing keys.

That is a classical case of the mind think it knows but it doesnt. the mind think it is totally logical but it is wrong.

These types of things putting lots of time doesnt help at all and infact is wasting of time.

Once again you are fantasizing about what others can and cannot do! Just because you can't do it doesn't mean no one else can.

While I haven't done this particular stunt, I have done related stunts, both as teacher and as student. So speak for your own ineptitude, and avoid making ridiculous, ignorant and uninformed comments concerning people you don’t know in the least bit!

[Hendrik]

When I meet Cheuk Fung, then I'll deal with Cheuk Fung.

It's ok - I don't want to embarrass you or anyone - I know you are searching honestly, and trying to find the meaning of a lot of information, video and otherwise.

We are all embarrassed to show our level, me too.

We all believe that CMA has so much more to offer than ourselves - we believe in it, beyond ourselves, and don't want to suggest ourselves as its representatives.

It doesn't matter. I'll show you what I mean.



You have not embarrass me since you are entitle to your logic and mind set.

[Hendrik]

Once again you are fantasizing about what others can and cannot do! Just because you can't do it doesn't mean no one else can.

While I haven't done this particular stunt, I have done related stunts, both as teacher and as student.

So speak for your own ineptitude, and avoid making ridiculous, ignorant and uninformed comments concerning people you don’t know in the least bit!




hahaha, you just cant take I know what it is? hahaha


fantasized?
anyone who knows the subject can scan the video and others reply, and based on different angles and data to verify what one is very likely to be, know it or not, can and can not do.

BTW. seriously, it is not a stunt but a very unique momentum generation with fast accelartion capability, support by 4 types or more core generators.

Does Qi involve? yes. if your body is not condition to a certain way, you cant do it well.

[Scott R. Brown]

hahaha, you just cant take I know what it is? hahaha

Ha ha ha ha?


I have no idea what you are talking about, but then neither do you!

You are so irrational and illogical in your comments you mostly spew nonsense!

As always, you criticize people for doing what you do yourself, make presumptions about people you do not know, fail to explain anything in an objective manner, change the subject, answer questions or make comments about what others have said by changing the context, etc so on and so forth!

That is why I have suspicions that you have some mental problems. I have worked around people like you in a therapeutic enviroment for years, people that have trouble expressing a clear thought are usually off their medication.

I posted a clear description parsing the first trick in the demo, what have you posted? Nothing but nonsense, Lao Tzu quotes you do not understand, chinese quotes only a few people can read, songs.........!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh yeah...AND......in your true hypocritical form, criticize people for criticizing what you feel free to criticize yourself!

[Hendrik]

Ha ha ha ha?


I have no idea what you are talking about, but then neither do you!

You are so irrational and illogical in your comments you mostly spew nonsense!

As always, you criticize people for doing what you do yourself, make presumptions about people you do not know, fail to explain anything in an objective manner, change the subject, answer questions or make comments about what others have said by changing the context, etc so on and so forth!

That is why I have suspicions that you have some mental problems. I have worked around people like you in a therapeutic enviroment for years, people that have trouble expressing a clear thought are usually off their medication.

I posted a clear description parsing the first trick in the demo, what have you posted? Nothing but nonsense, Lao Tzu quotes you do not understand, chinese quotes only a few people can read, songs.........!:rolleyes:



you sure spend a great respectable honest effort on that post. however, you didnt know the key, so you run into a wrong conclusion.

you logic doesnt taking account for fast acceleration momentum handling beyond your body use to do and can do. so, it tooks off from the proper path.

[YiQuanOne]

Enough. Do you dare show your level or not?

I don't know why you guys want somebody to post a video showing internal.

The one you are talking about is internal and you still can't see it, if you had any internal it would look fine, and you could do it without any practice.

You try to make into a muscle reason exercise, if you did it using external muscle nothing would happen , the guy will not go any where.

I do this kind of thing all the time, I show with muscle, don't work , then do internal way and works. Looks the same, new video will also look the same.
Students can try to counter but does no good.

You can't see it because it is internal happening, and you don't know what that is.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know why you guys want somebody to post a video showing internal.
If you think that "internal" is superior than "external", just hit on the heavy bag 5 times and let someone to use his cell phone to make a clip out of it. How hard can that be?

I think to post "internal" bag striking clip is an excellent idea.

[YiQuanOne]

If you think that "internal" is superior than "external", just hit on the heavy bag 5 times and let someone to use his cell phone to make a clip out of it. How hard can that be?

I think to post "internal" bag striking clip is an excellent idea.

Who said internal strike will move bag more?.

You guys have the internal clip, I don't think it shows a huge strike force, just something that the other guy can't defend against very well.

[Scott R. Brown]

you logic doesnt taking account for fast acceleration momentum handling beyond your body use to do and can do. so, it tooks off from the proper path.

Your "fast acceleration momentum" confirms that biomechanics is what causes the student to move backwards, since momentum is a function of mass and affects the biomechanics.

And my explanation HAS taken that into account, because from the first I explained that the instructor moving forward into the student is what causes him to start moving backwards, then a slight push accelerates him, followed by the student pushing himself backwards by this autonomic response to the instructor's force coming into him.

Anyone who has played football for any length of time knows what I am taking about, because the exact same resopnse occurs frequently when one is blocked! Especially by a heavier opponent! :)

[rett]

No. It's simply a hoax. Everyone wants their unreasonable expectations to be true - but if you want the real truth, you must be ruthlessly honest, and disappoint your expectations. This is not real yiquan.

Okay I didn't mean to say anything about whether it's real yiquan or not. I just mean to shoot the breeze by opining that the ideas about receiving force, listening, and changing it to disrupt the opponent's balance are real. And that exercises where the guy playing the attacker keeps pushing after his balance is broken and looks like he "flys off" or jumps back can be legit practice.

[rett]

you cant apply it because you were not shown the keys of what Fung is doing. it is in the video but you dont see it.

I'm not really all that interested in what Fung is doing because he is continents away from me. I can meet people who doing training that looks fairly similar to this video but who I believe are better at it.

The problem isn't that they don't explain the keys to me. They are very generous about explaining it. The problem is that it's just like all other training. You can't really understand and apply what they're telling you until you've practiced to where your body-mind is ready to understand. Then you get an aha moment and think you found something amazing, but realize oh this is what they were trying to tell me for years.

[Miqi]

When I have something impressive enough to show the world I will "consider" posting it!


This is not about being impressive, or about embarrassing anyone. Just the idea of showing one another our honest level.




Hitting a bag is rather basic.

In this case, hitting a bag is the most important thing - because we can't agree on how much the reaction of the 'opponent' is involved in the 'feat'. So if our 'power generation' theories are true, they should work on a bag - which is similar to the suggestion posted in the thread about grappling dummies.



When I can do 10 pullups with 100# sometime next year I might be willing to post that, or if I ever get my kicks back up to 4 per second, maybe. You know, something impressive. Hitting a bag is not impressive! Even an amateur boxer can hit a bag better than most MAists can.

See how we worry about our reputation! 'I can't show anything until I can do something great...'

I can't do anything impressive either - except try my best to be honest.

We are martial artists, regardless of anything else. What could be better than to see the skill sets of other martial artists we are talking to? It's always interesting to us, to see that - no matter how much we deny it, every one of us in this argument would love to see the others doing their stuff!




Although I have not hit a bag in years, I have had times in my life where I have hit the bag 10 rounds a day. So, feel free to show us your bag hitting skills if you wish. I will be happy to correct any form flaws I perceive!

Well, I'm sure you will. I'm sure also that I don't know the slightest thing about IMA and qi power and correct generation of power. The only thing I'm more sure of is that the people criticising won't show me how it's really done.

Which is dumb, isn't it? Really, it's ridiculous. Honesty is the only impressive thing any of us could do in this situation.

Anyway, rather than 'bag work' as in hitting the bag, my suggestion is that we do what'sshown in the previous videos - i.e. pushing - pushing the bag - to show how the types of force generation we're each talking about work in practice. If you haven't got a bag, you could just talk us through it in a non-bag demonstration.

[Miqi]

For decades now,
I always saw Fung when I go to City of Ten Thousand buddhas, we both are Buddhist brothers.

I actually disagree with you on your saying Fung is not doing real Yiquan.


In fact, Fung is using Yiquan power generation in the youtube. eventhough it is a demo with his student without real figthing exchanging, Fung is demonstrating Yiquan in an authentic way, as in China.

Fung has handle in many things in additional to the Hu Yuan Li. those can be clearly seen in his demo.

I wonder why have you not comment on these keys even I keep asking everyone to comment in my previous three posts?


Fung is just an old hoaxer. There are no keys to what he does. I'm sorry - I know that's very dis-appointing. But it's also a first step towards real skill and knowledge.

[Miqi]

I don't know why you guys want somebody to post a video showing internal.

The one you are talking about is internal and you still can't see it, if you had any internal it would look fine, and you could do it without any practice.

You try to make into a muscle reason exercise, if you did it using external muscle nothing would happen , the guy will not go any where.

I do this kind of thing all the time, I show with muscle, don't work , then do internal way and works. Looks the same, new video will also look the same.
Students can try to counter but does no good.

You can't see it because it is internal happening, and you don't know what that is.

So, that's a no then.

It doesn't matter. I don't want to embarrass you.

[Miqi]

Who said internal strike will move bag more?.

You guys have the internal clip, I don't think it shows a huge strike force, just something that the other guy can't defend against very well.

Let's be clear - Tam and Fung both use a tiny amount of force to obtain a very large reaction in their 'opponent'.

That means that it doesn't, actually 'look the same' as an 'external' movement, and it's not just about what's 'on the inside'. We can 'see' a tiny movement leads to a massive effect.

Are you saying now that this can only be done against an opponent, and not against a bag?

Because, this isn't about moving the bag 'more' - this is about moving the bag massively with just a light, small push.

Are you saying that it can't be done on a bag?

[Miqi]

Okay I didn't mean to say anything about whether it's real yiquan or not. I just mean to shoot the breeze by opining that the ideas about receiving force, listening, and changing it to disrupt the opponent's balance are real. And that exercises where the guy playing the attacker keeps pushing after his balance is broken and looks like he "flys off" or jumps back can be legit practice.

It is not legit. Cheuk Fung... I want to meet him very much.

[Hendrik]

I'm not really all that interested in what Fung is doing because he is continents away from me. I can meet people who doing training that looks fairly similar to this video but who I believe are better at it.

The problem isn't that they don't explain the keys to me. They are very generous about explaining it. The problem is that it's just like all other training.

You can't really understand and apply what they're telling you until you've practiced to where your body-mind is ready to understand.

Then you get an aha moment and think you found something amazing, but realize oh this is what they were trying to tell me for years.



I have a totally different experience with you.

Momentum generation and handling is not a Zen satori ; anyone when shown the keys and get the tune up will be able to do it right a way; even if at the begining one doesnt do it very well.

[Hendrik]

Fung is just an old hoaxer. There are no keys to what he does. I'm sorry - I know that's very dis-appointing.

But it's also a first step towards real skill and knowledge.



that is your personal opinion,

I have been asking you to analize what Fung does in his video demo, but you have not come up with any technical reasons with mechanics instead of jumping into conclusion.

There is no dis-appointment toward Fung because he did what he did honestly. and it is the Yiquan way.


What is analyzing and describing what is Yiquan momentum mechanics in Fung has anything to do with disappointment?


could you share with us who is your sifu in Yiquan?

[Hendrik]

Let's be clear - Tam and Fung both use a tiny amount of force to obtain a very large reaction in their 'opponent'.





1, Tam and Fung using very different mechanics.


2, Fung's power is authentic Yiquan

3,Fung does in deed did a fajing in his video because his mechanics clearly shown. The resultant force/momentum of Fung is large even it may look like not using effort for those who is not familiar with Yiquan fa li.








That means that it doesn't, actually 'look the same' as an 'external' movement,

and it's not just about what's 'on the inside'.

We can 'see' a tiny movement leads to a massive effect.



every internal movement has an external expression if one knows where and what to look.








Are you saying now that this can only be done against an opponent, and not against a bag?


the outcome of against an opponent and bag are different.




Because, this isn't about moving the bag 'more' - this is about moving the bag massively with just a light, small push.

Are you saying that it can't be done on a bag?


moving a bag massively with just a light, small push doesnt show the same momentum handling type and what happen with the penetration.

unless one has a force vectors sensors monitoring to see if the same type of momentum is generated, it doesnt tell much.

not to mention, whatever happen doesnt say relation with if it is Yiquan or Taiji or Baji or Wing Chun power generation technology.


my bottom line is if one cannot describe the keys of Yiquan momentum handling/generation in words then one doesnt know it.



Miqi,

you have described the basic of standing stake but I have not seen you describe how Yiquan fa li. standing stake and fa li are two different things.


in this case you keep saying Fung is fake but doesnt have an explanation technically.
until you could clearly explain what Fung does you have not shown you know Yiquan power generation and Fung.

so, i hope you tell us what is Yiquan fa ji. until then bad mouthing Fung just drop your credit.

[rett]

I have a totally different experience with you.

Momentum generation and handling is not a Zen satori ; anyone when shown the keys and get the tune up will be able to do it right a way; even if at the begining one doesnt do it very well.

What does Zen satori have to do with this? Do you think that's what I was saying? Then I really need to write more clearly.

It has happened to me time and again that I am taught movement principles but it takes me a lot of practice to be able to work them into my body-mind. That's what I'm talking about with aha moments. Nothing mystical.

It doesn't matter if I try to apply the "keys" that I've been shown. Sure, I can start playing right away but against a more experienced student (which is pretty much all of them, where I practice) I'll still be the one getting uprooted. Once I did have the enjoyable experience of playing a guy who was more out of touch with his center than I am. There was nothing he could do to me within the paramaters we were playing at. I could basically break his balance at will with a single finger with my eyes closed over and over. But really, him and I would probably sort in the same newbeginner level.

[Hendrik]

Your "fast acceleration momentum" confirms that biomechanics is what causes the student to move backwards, since momentum is a function of mass and affects the biomechanics.

And my explanation HAS taken that into account, because from the first I explained that the instructor moving forward into the student is what causes him to start moving backwards, then a slight push accelerates him, followed by the student pushing himself backwards by this autonomic response to the instructor's force coming into him.

Anyone who has played football for any length of time knows what I am taking about, because the exact same resopnse occurs frequently when one is blocked! Especially by a heavier opponent! :)



sure everything including I am typing here is biomechanics. the issue is to identify which mechanics which lead to fast acceleration?

[Miqi]

that is your personal opinion,

I have been asking you to analize what Fung does in his video demo, but you have not come up with any technical reasons with mechanics instead of jumping into conclusion.

There are no technical reasons, it's just a hoax.





There is no dis-appointment toward Fung because he did what he did honestly. and it is the Yiquan way.

You don't even do yiquan.



What is analyzing and describing what is Yiquan momentum mechanics in Fung has anything to do with disappointment?

One of the first things I told you is the most valuable thing I can tell you - to dis-appoint your expectations. You can search Fung's videos all day long, applying theory. The one real truth you need to see is the dis-appointing fact that it's just a hoax.




could you share with us who is your sifu in Yiquan?

I trained in yiquan, traditional and contemporary wushu, Chen taiji and Shaolin wushu with Master Chen De Qing. However, my opinions have nothing to do with Master Chen, who is extremely private and closed lipped on such issues, for the most part. Any opinions I express are completely independent - Master Chen was just my sports coach, nothing more. I don't - and can't - speak for him or anyone else.

Although he has stated publicly, in a magazine, that there are many frauds in the West pretending to Chinese martial arts experts, and people only believe it because they don't really know the truth. He's talking about one of us two.

I've never, to my knowledge, heard Master Chen talk about Tam or Fung - I don't suppose he even knows they exist, not do I suppose he cares Nor do I, really - I care more about you, because you seem to be genuinely searching.

[Miqi]

1, Tam and Fung using very different mechanics.


2, Fung's power is authentic Yiquan

3,Fung does in deed did a fajing in his video because his mechanics clearly shown. The resultant force/momentum of Fung is large even it may look like not using effort for those who is not familiar with Yiquan fa li.


You mean like you?



every internal movement has an external expression if one knows where and what to look.

Just like Wang Xiang Zhai, I don't know what internal or external mean.



the outcome of against an opponent and bag are different.

moving a bag massively with just a light, small push doesnt show the same momentum handling type and what happen with the penetration.


So, he can penetrate a human being with a light push, but not a bag? So, if I want to fight Fung, I should wear a suit made out of the same stuff bags are made out of?



unless one has a force vectors sensors monitoring to see if the same type of momentum is generated, it doesnt tell much.


Force vectors is the big 'buzz phrase' in yiquan with some folks right now. If you only knew what a basic thing it actually referred to! Force vectors... that's a good one. Fear my force vectors!





Not to mention, whatever happen doesnt say relation with if it is Yiquan or Taiji or Baji or Wing Chun power generation technology.

Well, if none of these can make a bag move, what's the point of them?



my bottom line is if one cannot describe the keys of Yiquan momentum handling/generation in words then one doesnt know it.

No - I was right all along: if you can't, or couldn't ever have, shown it, then you don't really know it.




Miqi,

you have described the basic of standing stake but I have not seen you describe how Yiquan fa li. standing stake and fa li are two different things.


'Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are actually all the same thing.' That's a direct quote from Wang Xiang Zhai. Aren't you even a little worried that most things you think are yiquan theory are almost the direct opposite of what Wang taught?




in this case you keep saying Fung is fake but doesnt have an explanation technically.
until you could clearly explain what Fung does you have not shown you know Yiquan power generation and Fung.

Fung is a hoaxer, so there's nothing to explain. No matter what I 'say' I haven't 'shown' that I 'know' anything. Onlyby actually showing will we show what we know. Talk is cheap.





so, i hope you tell us what is Yiquan fa ji. until then bad mouthing Fung just drop your credit.

My credit is too low to worry about dropping it. I'm just an ingoramous - please, do carry on explaining what yiquan is all about.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is not about being impressive, or about embarrassing anyone. Just the idea of showing one another our honest level.


So, that's a no then.

It doesn't matter. I don't want to embarrass you.

You are the only one worried about embarrassment that I can see! You keep bringing it up, no one else does. You may THINK others are afraid of being embarrassed, but more likely it is your own projection!


In this case, hitting a bag is the most important thing - because we can't agree on how much the reaction of the 'opponent' is involved in the 'feat'. So if our 'power generation' theories are true, they should work on a bag - which is similar to the suggestion posted in the thread about grappling dummies.

Who is we? I know what I know, because I have done it. I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me or not. I know my power generation abilities because I have done it for years!

Since my analysis of the first stunt involves the student participating in his own backwards projection, it is most certainly NOT the same thing as hitting a bag.

The mass and movement of a bag is different. How will you fold the bag's arms into its chest in order to disturb its center? How will a hanging bag set up with a poor stance prior to me hitting it? How will something secured to the ceiling move the same as a person standing on the ground and able to step and jump backwards? How will a bag adjust its center in order to allow me to take advantage of it?

You haven't considered ANY of this? And you think that hitting a bag will be related to a dynamic interaction between two people? You are truly a novice!


See how we worry about our reputation! 'I can't show anything until I can do something great...'

You might worry about your reputation, but I don't worry about mine! If I was afraid for my reputation, I certainly wouldn't be posting on an internet BB!

For me it is about the cost benefit ratio! The effort it would cost to do so is not outweighed by the benefits obtained! In fact, I can think of no benefit obtained, since I don't care what you or Hendrik have to say about anything I can do!

Although I do have respect for YouKnowWho! His opinion might be of benefit, your's and Hendrik's certainly won't have any meaning to me!

So basically, it isn't worth my effort!


I can't do anything impressive either - except try my best to be honest.

We are martial artists, regardless of anything else. What could be better than to see the skill sets of other martial artists we are talking to? It's always interesting to us, to see that - no matter how much we deny it, every one of us in this argument would love to see the others doing their stuff!/

You must still be a beginner then! Once you have been around the block for oh say, over 30 years, you care much less what others are doing than when you were younger in age and younger in the MA!


Anyway, rather than 'bag work' as in hitting the bag, my suggestion is that we do what'sshown in the previous videos - i.e. pushing - pushing the bag - to show how the types of force generation we're each talking about work in practice. If you haven't got a bag, you could just talk us through it in a non-bag demonstration.

I have been on this BB for something over 10 years now, I have already ridden that horse, on this section of the BB too. If you feel like taking the time do a search, and find it. Otherwise if I have time later and am so motivated I will post a few exercises that anyone can do that demonstrate how easy biomechanics can move someone. I don't do the push the guy back move however, I don't see much practical benefit in it!


sure everything including I am typing here is biomechanics. the issue is to identify which mechanics which lead to fast acceleration?

Uh huh! I already addressed that too when I parsed the first stunt, and it IS a stunt! The guy is skilled at the STUNT, but it is still a STUNT! What makes it a STUNT is that there is virtually NO direct martial benefit to what he is demonstrating.

Do the same thing against an active, aggressive and knowledgeable opponent, and defeat him, THEN it won't be a stunt, it will be actual Martial Skill!

[Hendrik]

There are no technical reasons, it's just a hoax.

This is where a communication is breaking down. when personal guessing become dominate without technical.



You don't even do yiquan.



I dont do Yiquan doesnt mean I dont know Yiquan or have never studied it.

Not to mention, one of my sifu in Qigong/internal art is a student of late Wang Xuan Jie in YiQuan.

http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/wangxuanjie.htm







One of the first things I told you is the most valuable thing I can tell you - to dis-appoint your expectations.

You can search Fung's videos all day long, applying theory.

The one real truth you need to see is the dis-appointing fact that it's just a hoax.



Yiquan is a technology not a philosophy. technology means there are technics to makes things happen.

The facts on Fung is simply identify if Fung's practice accord to the technics of YiQuan, in this case, if Fung's practice is accord with Wang Xuan Jie and others first and second generation Wang Xiang Zai's students.

The result is, Fung's practice does accord with Wang Xiang Zai's students' practice.


you like to be dis-apointing that is your free will. However, that doesnt applied to Yiquan practice.

not to mention, I dont have to search for Fung's video all days and apply theory. I was train to do what Fung does, so I know it is what it is.







I trained in yiquan, traditional and contemporary wushu, Chen taiji and Shaolin wushu with Master Chen De Qing.


So, is this Master Chen De Qing?

http://www.jin-long.co.uk/martial-arts/master-chen-de-qing/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JHZIaVmRKk&feature=related

how is he supposed to teach Yiquan? who does he learn Yiquan from? not to mention his body type is certainly not Yiquan type.

and how do you learn Yiquan?

where is your lineage or Yiquan family tree from Wang Xiang-Zai?







However, my opinions have nothing to do with Master Chen, who is extremely private and closed lipped on such issues, for the most part. Any opinions I express are completely independent - Master Chen was just my sports coach, nothing more. I don't - and can't - speak for him or anyone else.



No one question about him.






Although he has stated publicly, in a magazine, that there are many frauds in the West pretending to Chinese martial arts experts, and people only believe it because they don't really know the truth. He's talking about one of us two.


That is his view.





I've never, to my knowledge, heard Master Chen talk about Tam or Fung - I don't suppose he even knows they exist, not do I suppose he cares Nor do I, really - I care more about you, because you seem to be genuinely searching.




My advise to you is stop playing expert on what you have never really practice.

Fung is a legitimate Yiquan practioner. one can see his Yiquan family lineage.

http://www.ttem.org/forum/index.php?topic=1900.0


and his demo youtube shows he practice Yiquan.

[Hendrik]

'Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are actually all the same thing.' That's a direct quote from Wang Xiang Zhai.

Aren't you even a little worried that most things you think are yiquan theory are almost the direct opposite of what Wang taught?


is it?

the above just tell,
you have never really practice YiQuan.




Fung is a hoaxer, so there's nothing to explain.

No matter what I 'say' I haven't 'shown' that I 'know' anything. Onlyby actually showing will we show what we know.

Talk is cheap.



That shows your Wude isnt it?







My credit is too low to worry about dropping it. I'm just an ingoramous - please, do carry on explaining what yiquan is all about.


everyone has a good credit until one abuse it.

[YiQuanOne]

Uh huh! I already addressed that too when I parsed the first stunt, and it IS a stunt! The guy is skilled at the STUNT, but it is still a STUNT! What makes it a STUNT is that there is virtually NO direct martial benefit to what he is demonstrating.

Do the same thing against an active, aggressive and knowledgeable opponent, and defeat him, THEN it won't be a stunt, it will be actual Martial Skill!

What he is demonstrating is that he is neutralizing the incoming force and using it to also unbalance the other guy.

I don't know, but in my experience whenever some one is off balance they are not able to defend themselfs with much of an offense.

So instead of being friendly and pushing the guy far away, he can just disrupt his balance and then do any offensive move he wants to do while the person is off balance.

I have found that developing defense takes a lot more skill than developing an offense, most people just develop offense.

I think the reason you don't see internal videos is just for this reason here, no one believes it. I don't want to put a video up, what for, most of these external guys that put up videos do so because they have inflated egos, some don't and want to share, but you can't share internal in a video, you need to feel it.

If I meet someone and I like them and think they are of good heart, I will share the experence, but not for my ego.

Bags are not people, do not loose balance or have energy that goes out and in along different path structures.

The guy that wants to be like a punching bag, if you can give the effect of soft whereever the guy touches you, you will have a better defense. But you still need to effect him.

The classics describe the warrior as "Steel wrapped in cotton".

[Scott R. Brown]

What he is demonstrating is that he is neutralizing the incoming force and using it to also unbalance the other guy.

I don't know, but in my experience whenever some one is off balance they are not able to defend themselfs with much of an offense.

So instead of being friendly and pushing the guy far away, he can just disrupt his balance and then do any offensive move he wants to do while the person is off balance.

The problem is the student didn't present much of an offense to begin with! With that kind of attack, you could just have punched the guy in the nose from the start and ended it with much less effort or time or opportunity for a second 'attack', except there was no attack from the first.

Secondly, there are more effective methods to unbalance a person than the one demonstrated and these methods will also contribute more directly to neutralizing the opponent than pushing him directly backwards.

[Miqi]

You are the only one worried about embarrassment that I can see! You keep bringing it up, no one else does. You may THINK others are afraid of being embarrassed, but more likely it is your own projection!



Who is we? I know what I know, because I have done it. I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me or not. I know my power generation abilities because I have done it for years!

Since my analysis of the first stunt involves the student participating in his own backwards projection, it is most certainly NOT the same thing as hitting a bag.

The mass and movement of a bag is different. How will you fold the bag's arms into its chest in order to disturb its center? How will a hanging bag set up with a poor stance prior to me hitting it? How will something secured to the ceiling move the same as a person standing on the ground and able to step and jump backwards? How will a bag adjust its center in order to allow me to take advantage of it?

You haven't considered ANY of this? And you think that hitting a bag will be related to a dynamic interaction between two people? You are truly a novice!



You might worry about your reputation, but I don't worry about mine! If I was afraid for my reputation, I certainly wouldn't be posting on an internet BB!

For me it is about the cost benefit ratio! The effort it would cost to do so is not outweighed by the benefits obtained! In fact, I can think of no benefit obtained, since I don't care what you or Hendrik have to say about anything I can do!

Although I do have respect for YouKnowWho! His opinion might be of benefit, your's and Hendrik's certainly won't have any meaning to me!

So basically, it isn't worth my effort!



You must still be a beginner then! Once you have been around the block for oh say, over 30 years, you care much less what others are doing than when you were younger in age and younger in the MA!



I have been on this BB for something over 10 years now, I have already ridden that horse, on this section of the BB too. If you feel like taking the time do a search, and find it. Otherwise if I have time later and am so motivated I will post a few exercises that anyone can do that demonstrate how easy biomechanics can move someone. I don't do the push the guy back move however, I don't see much practical benefit in it!


'No' would have been quite enough, Scott. In situations like this, it's not like you become more convincing the more you say.

[Miqi]

This is where a communication is breaking down. when personal guessing become dominate without technical.





I dont do Yiquan doesnt mean I dont know Yiquan or have never studied it.

Not to mention, one of my sifu in Qigong/internal art is a student of late Wang Xuan Jie in YiQuan.

http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/wangxuanjie.htm








Yiquan is a technology not a philosophy. technology means there are technics to makes things happen.

The facts on Fung is simply identify if Fung's practice accord to the technics of YiQuan, in this case, if Fung's practice is accord with Wang Xuan Jie and others first and second generation Wang Xiang Zai's students.

The result is, Fung's practice does accord with Wang Xiang Zai's students' practice.


you like to be dis-apointing that is your free will. However, that doesnt applied to Yiquan practice.

not to mention, I dont have to search for Fung's video all days and apply theory. I was train to do what Fung does, so I know it is what it is.






So, is this Master Chen De Qing?

http://www.jin-long.co.uk/martial-arts/master-chen-de-qing/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JHZIaVmRKk&feature=related

how is he supposed to teach Yiquan? who does he learn Yiquan from? not to mention his body type is certainly not Yiquan type.

and how do you learn Yiquan?

where is your lineage or Yiquan family tree from Wang Xiang-Zai?








No one question about him.






That is his view.







My advise to you is stop playing expert on what you have never really practice.

Fung is a legitimate Yiquan practioner. one can see his Yiquan family lineage.

http://www.ttem.org/forum/index.php?topic=1900.0


and his demo youtube shows he practice Yiquan.

Well, all that's left is for you to convince people.

[Scott R. Brown]

'No' would have been quite enough, Scott. In situations like this, it's not like you become more convincing the more you say.

I don't write comments in order to please you! No one makes you read it! If you don't like it, don't read it!

[Miqi]

is it?

the above just tell,
you have never really practice YiQuan.

'Zhang Zhuang, shi li and fa li are really all the same thing' is a direct quote of Wang Xiang Zhai - so you're not even saying that I never practised yiquan, you're saying Wang didn't. This is what I asked you at first - how credible can what you say be in this case?



That shows your Wude isnt it?


I'm a very bad person - and worse in person. I can't deny it.



everyone has a good credit until one abuse it.

Oh, I abuse it, I abuse it.

[Miqi]

I don't write comments in order to please you! No one makes you read it! If you don't like it, don't read it!

I didn't say you were making me read it. I don't even say you're trying to convince me. If you were, you'd just give one reason. In my experience - which is actually just as long as yours - when people give ten different excuses its because they're trying to find a way of convincing themselves.

You can keep arguing with me - even keep insulting me - but it's all just part of the process of convincing yourself. Heck - all I suggested was that you show me what you mean in a video. You'd think I'd asked you to enter the UFC.

[Miqi]

I don't know, but in my experience whenever some one is off balance they are not able to defend themselfs with much of an offense.


You've clearly never heard of BJJ.

[Scott R. Brown]

I didn't say you were making me read it. I don't even say you're trying to convince me. If you were, you'd just give one reason. In my experience - which is actually just as long as yours - when people give ten different excuses its because they're trying to find a way of convincing themselves.

You can keep arguing with me - even keep insulting me - but it's all just part of the process of convincing yourself. Heck - all I suggested was that you show me what you mean in a video. You'd think I'd asked you to enter the UFC.

You have a narrow perspective, I suppose it has never dawned on you that some people just happen to think things through more than others!

Calling you a novice is insulting only if you think you know more than you do! You have already demonstrated you don't think things through very well and you project your own issues onto others!

But no you wouldn't consider that because you are too concerned with the "dis-appointment" and "embarrassment" you THINK others are feeling!

Yet you refuse to put forward a demonstration of yourself, until everyone else does it FIRST! Who is afraid here?

Attend to yourself, before concerning yourself with others!

I took the time to parse the first push! What have you done? Worry about the dis-appointment you THINK everyone else feels because they don't see things the same way you do?

[Hendrik]

'Zhang Zhuang, shi li and fa li are really all the same thing' is a direct quote of Wang Xiang Zhai -


so you're not even saying that I never practised yiquan, you're saying Wang didn't.



This is what I asked you at first - how credible can what you say be in this case?




1, you are not Wang Xiang Zhai. Shows us where did Wang Xiang Zhai said it with its full article. instead of you say something and expect others to take it as the saying of Wang Xiang Zhai.


if Zhang Zhuang is shi li and fa li, then Wang Xiang Zhai will not have to teach shi li , fa li, and Yang Shen Zhuang differently. instead, all Yiquan practitioner has to practice shi li, and fa li, beside Zhang Zhuang.

That a look at authentic Yiquan practice.

This is different Zhang Zhuang fa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXSkJFYX2mg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBUs66Lq_EA


This is Shi li
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kVPV7Wj1_Y&feature=related

how can they be the same?


due to you have never study Yiquan properly and not able to fa li, thus you missed qoute Wang Xiang-Zai out of the blue. and when Fung shows true Yiquan fali in front of you, you could not recognized it. and turn around to call Fung as a fake.





2, I am waiting for you to show which lineage under Yiquan's family tree and sifu you study Yiquan. could you provide us?

[YiQuanOne]

The problem is the student didn't present much of an offense to begin with! With that kind of attack, you could just have punched the guy in the nose from the start and ended it with much less effort or time or opportunity for a second 'attack', except there was no attack from the first.

Secondly, there are more effective methods to unbalance a person than the one demonstrated and these methods will also contribute more directly to neutralizing the opponent than pushing him directly backwards.

He is not showing defense of punch, it looks more like the other guy is trying to start to maybe man handle him like those wrestler dudes that want to roll around on the ground.

I am sure other methods can work, but this seems very efficient without using much movement.

But I think the clip question is what is the method being used. I know you gave your description of what it looks like, but does it really work doing it like that?

Now the guy that thinks BJJ does not need balance, They are falling and holding onto you, so I would not say they are not off balance yet, since they are still effecting you.

[Scott R. Brown]

He is not showing defense of punch, it looks more like the other guy is trying to start to maybe man handle him like those wrestler dudes that want to roll around on the ground.

I am sure other methods can work, but this seems very efficient without using much movement.

But I think the clip question is what is the method being used. I know you gave your description of what it looks like, but does it really work doing it like that?

Now the guy that thinks BJJ does not need balance, They are falling and holding onto you, so I would not say they are not off balance yet, since they are still effecting you.

I don't know how you see that! It is clear they are doing push hands as a preparation for the demonstration. He is merely demonstrating a principle, but not demonstrating in a realistic manner!

I don't even have a problem setting up the demonstration of a principle in this manner, I am merely saying it isn't magical Qi that is causing the effect, but a "very skillful" application of biomechanics!

And there is nothing wrong with that!

[Hendrik]

Uh huh! I already addressed that too when I parsed the first stunt, and it IS a stunt! The guy is skilled at the STUNT, but it is still a STUNT! What makes it a STUNT is that there is virtually NO direct martial benefit to what he is demonstrating.

Do the same thing against an active, aggressive and knowledgeable opponent, and defeat him, THEN it won't be a stunt, it will be actual Martial Skill!



call it anything you like. and think whatever as you like.

the issue is do you know the specific mechanics of Fung or Yiquan fa li?

[Scott R. Brown]

call it anything you like. and think whatever as you like.

the issue is do you know the specific mechanics of Fung or Yiquan fa li?

I have already described the process used in the first stunt! Do you read anything or just pontificate nonsense!

[YiQuanOne]

I don't know how you see that! It is clear they are doing push hands as a preparation for the demonstration. He is merely demonstrating a principle, but not demonstrating in a realistic manner!

I don't even have a problem setting up the demonstration of a principle in this manner, I am merely saying it isn't magical Qi that is causing the effect, but a "very skillful" application of biomechanics!

And there is nothing wrong with that!

I have not heard an explanation of the biomechanics explained that use external muscle generation.

I would say he is showing a combination of stuff used together at the same time. If you call it a principle, mabe that could be a like a letter in the alphabet, learn the letters and you can create words and then express yourself.

But I would say he put some letters together for that word.

The guy is in front of him, seems real person, just because he is not waiting for the guy to come running at him at high speed, if the guy did that he would just move out of the way not stay in front of the gun.

[wenshu]

I have not heard an explanation of the biomechanics explained that use external muscle generation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flop_(basketball)


In basketball, flop is a pejorative term that refers to a defensive player intentionally falling backward to the floor upon physical contact with an offensive player.

[Miqi]

This is different Zhang Zhuang fa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXSkJFYX2mg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBUs66Lq_EA


This is Shi li
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kVPV7Wj1_Y&feature=related

how can they be the same?


due to you have never study Yiquan properly and not able to fa li, thus you missed qoute Wang Xiang-Zai out of the blue. and when Fung shows true Yiquan fali in front of you, you could not recognized it. and turn around to call Fung as a fake.


2, I am waiting for you to show which lineage under Yiquan's family tree and sifu you study Yiquan. could you provide us?

My coach trained under master Xiang, who was a student of Yao Xong Zun. Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are all the same thing Hendrik - or rather, all aspects of the same thing; they're the same thing done at different speeds, and with different levels of relaxation and tension. Actually, it's you who don't understand the true method.

I'm sorry if this offends your feelings - but there simply is no way to broach this issue other than with the truth.

[Hendrik]

1, My coach trained under master Xiang, who was a student of Yao Xong Zun.





1, Who is your coach ? and who is Xiang?
we need full name here.

so we could contact them and asking them is that the Yiquan they teaches?






2, Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are all the same thing Hendrik - or rather, all aspects of the same thing;

they're the same thing done at different speeds, and with different levels of relaxation and tension.

Actually, it's you who don't understand the true method.

clearly, you dont know the momentum generation sources/mechanics in Yiquan fa li.

the above is totally misleading and not even accord with the Law of Physics.








3, I'm sorry if this offends your feelings - but there simply is no way to broach this issue other than with the truth.



I have no feeling to be offended at all,

with the youtubes in my previous posts as evidents it is clear and solid where do you stand.


also,

so where is the full article Wang Xiang Zai address "Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are all the same thing" as you mention?

[YiQuanOne]

I have met Wushu guys, most never learn any application. Its is kind of like american gymnasts, a sport of body acrobatics.

Metals for Wushu demonstration does not have anything to do with application.

[Hendrik]

I have met Wushu guys, most never learn any application. Its is kind of like american gymnasts, a sport of body acrobatics.

Metals for Wushu demonstration does not have anything to do with application.


I agree with you.

[Miqi]

Well, what a funny thread adventure this turned out to be. My god you guys would actually argue for months and years without showing your true level - terrified that it'll be laughed at, or some hidden hero will lecture you on your lack of qi powered force vectors. Or maybe Faxiaparata will tell you that you'd die in the octogon. Well, we would, he's right - who cares? You are what you honestly are.

It'll take me a couple of weeks to do the pushing video - on a heavier bag than the one shown here. In the meantime, like I said right at the start, I'm not a great yiquan player, just an amatuer in his early 40s - but I dare say may basic skills are passable enough to explain correct yiquan posture at a basic level.

Basic zhan zhuang, shi li, and fa li, and basic physical demonstration of how hunyuan li is first explored in the training method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGOQGxxf4fc


Slightly more advanced use of hunyuan li movement in 'free' shi li:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbubkpmpH_8


Extending shi li in to the legs - 'mo ca bu'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpyfnB9XFI


Basic yiquan jab - first use of basic whole body connectivity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_AWa__g8JA

Basic cross, and then combining jabs and crosses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yNmqhFT2I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0jNoX2y08

'Testing structure' - this is what you see, when you see all the other yiquan guys hitting the bag light contact, and people assume that that's their full power level. It's actually this training exercise, that allows you to feel the connectivity from floor to punch, and in all parts of the body:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Y7k_znQaA


Basic demonstration of combination techniques. This wasn't filmed as continuous bagwork - I was practising 'bursting' attacks - where you just unload for a few seconds. Sometimes I use pure speed and sacrifice pure yiquan method to speed, sometimes more power. Yiquan is not dead or fixed to any one way - it's alive, intuitive and idiosyncratic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NliQQvgSo4

Furhter basic punching techniques, and further introduction in to the mechanics of yiquan punching (real yiquan mechanics, not magical mechanics):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrDlhgEI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt6bLfAbaW0

'Jianwu' or 'health dance' - this was a strange one, because it was on snow, and the snow was extremely slippy - and it was on a slope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atuVjE0-aJA

Basics of using a staff - part one - I hate this because I sound like I smoke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKVDyQn40M


I have plenty more videos. These have been posted fairly recently, and I'm now working on a new set covering two man training, sparring and san shou - I'm sorry those aren't available yet but they will be later in the year.

I'm very sorry that I, and in many ways, yiquan itself is a disappointment. It's a perfectly down to earth system. What I've shown in these videos, though, is a tiny fragment - it is literally a tiny part of a percentage, because yiquan is infinite. I'm afraid I'm not qualified to teach - and I don't, I have no class or students - I just share everything I know so that others will share with me. I have only the most rudimentary understanding and training, but this is what I've done with it, for better or worse. And I'd rather have this honest low level, than fakery that's lauded.

The most important thing is what we've been discussing - the ability to issue force from any part of the body - and that's what I'll show in the video I'll shoot on pushing - although, there are still some directions I'm weaker than others in.

See, there's nothing to be afraid of in showing your level. We are what we are, and no amount of reality can force someone who doesn't really want the truth to change tak and follow the right path. But then, all they're left with is empty, anonymous words from behind closed doors. And what's the point of being that!

Hendrik you big bluffer, yiquan can not be taught or learned - that's its second biggest mystery. It can only be intuitively unfolded. I hope you find the way.

[YiQuanOne]

Well, what a funny thread adventure this turned out to be. My god you guys would actually argue for months and years without showing your true level - terrified that it'll be laughed at, or some hidden hero will lecture you on your lack of qi powered force vectors. Or maybe Faxiaparata will tell you that you'd die in the octogon. Well, we would, he's right - who cares? You are what you honestly are.

It'll take me a couple of weeks to do the pushing video - on a heavier bag than the one shown here. In the meantime, like I said right at the start, I'm not a great yiquan player, just an amatuer in his early 40s - but I dare say may basic skills are passable enough to explain correct yiquan posture at a basic level.

Basic zhan zhuang, shi li, and fa li, and basic physical demonstration of how hunyuan li is first explored in the training method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGOQGxxf4fc


Slightly more advanced use of hunyuan li movement in 'free' shi li:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbubkpmpH_8


Extending shi li in to the legs - 'mo ca bu'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpyfnB9XFI


Basic yiquan jab - first use of basic whole body connectivity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_AWa__g8JA

Basic cross, and then combining jabs and crosses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yNmqhFT2I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0jNoX2y08

'Testing structure' - this is what you see, when you see all the other yiquan guys hitting the bag light contact, and people assume that that's their full power level. It's actually this training exercise, that allows you to feel the connectivity from floor to punch, and in all parts of the body:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Y7k_znQaA


Basic demonstration of combination techniques. This wasn't filmed as continuous bagwork - I was practising 'bursting' attacks - where you just unload for a few seconds. Sometimes I use pure speed and sacrifice pure yiquan method to speed, sometimes more power. Yiquan is not dead or fixed to any one way - it's alive, intuitive and idiosyncratic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NliQQvgSo4

Furhter basic punching techniques, and further introduction in to the mechanics of yiquan punching (real yiquan mechanics, not magical mechanics):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrDlhgEI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt6bLfAbaW0

'Jianwu' or 'health dance' - this was a strange one, because it was on snow, and the snow was extremely slippy - and it was on a slope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atuVjE0-aJA

Basics of using a staff - part one - I hate this because I sound like I smoke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKVDyQn40M


I have plenty more videos. These have been posted fairly recently, and I'm now working on a new set covering two man training, sparring and san shou - I'm sorry those aren't available yet but they will be later in the year.

I'm very sorry that I, and in many ways, yiquan itself is a disappointment. It's a perfectly down to earth system. What I've shown in these videos, though, is a tiny fragment - it is literally a tiny part of a percentage, because yiquan is infinite. I'm afraid I'm not qualified to teach - and I don't, I have no class or students - I just share everything I know so that others will share with me. I have only the most rudimentary understanding and training, but this is what I've done with it, for better or worse. And I'd rather have this honest low level, than fakery that's lauded.

The most important thing is what we've been discussing - the ability to issue force from any part of the body - and that's what I'll show in the video I'll shoot on pushing - although, there are still some directions I'm weaker than others in.

See, there's nothing to be afraid of in showing your level. We are what we are, and no amount of reality can force someone who doesn't really want the truth to change tak and follow the right path. But then, all they're left with is empty, anonymous words from behind closed doors. And what's the point of being that!

Hendrik you big bluffer, yiquan can not be taught or learned - that's its second biggest mystery. It can only be intuitively unfolded. I hope you find the way.


I would like to say, I did not look through all the videos but the ones I saw, because it was to boring, but ,I could not find any indication of any levels.

Showing a bunch of guys waving their arms in the air does not show level, just maybe how they are trying to practice, reminds me of shadow boxing in boxing.

This guy is showing me his level http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qK8qOXmzNY8

I will check to see if any clips are of level.

[YiQuanOne]

Well, what a funny thread adventure this turned out to be. My god you guys would actually argue for months and years without showing your true level - terrified that it'll be laughed at, or some hidden hero will lecture you on your lack of qi powered force vectors. Or maybe Faxiaparata will tell you that you'd die in the octogon. Well, we would, he's right - who cares? You are what you honestly are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Y7k_znQaA


Basic demonstration of combination techniques. This wasn't filmed as continuous bagwork - I was practising 'bursting' attacks - where you just unload for a few seconds. Sometimes I use pure speed and sacrifice pure yiquan method to speed, sometimes more power. Yiquan is not dead or fixed to any one way - it's alive, intuitive and idiosyncratic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NliQQvgSo4

Furhter basic punching techniques, and further introduction in to the mechanics of yiquan punching (real yiquan mechanics, not magical mechanics):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrDlhgEI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt6bLfAbaW0

'Jianwu' or 'health dance' - this was a strange one, because it was on snow, and the snow was extremely slippy - and it was on a slope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atuVjE0-aJA

Basics of using a staff - part one - I hate this because I sound like I smoke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKVDyQn40M


I have plenty more videos. These have been posted fairly recently, and I'm now working on a new set covering two man training, sparring and san shou - I'm sorry those aren't available yet but they will be later in the year.

See, there's nothing to be afraid of in showing your level. We are what we are, and no amount of reality can force someone who doesn't really want the truth to change tak and follow the right path. But then, all they're left with is empty, anonymous words from behind closed doors. And what's the point of being that!

Hendrik you big bluffer, yiquan can not be taught or learned - that's its second biggest mystery. It can only be intuitively unfolded. I hope you find the way.


Just checked again, no level, just empty air practice, need partners to learn how to connect.

Are these guys trying to sell something?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik you big bluffer, yiquan can not be taught or learned - that's its second biggest mystery. It can only be intuitively unfolded. I hope you find the way.


so, it that you in the youtube? or it is the youtube you try to learn Yiquan from?


attack me personally with word I have never said is not going to go anywhere.


also,

where is the full article Wang Xiang Zai address "Zhan zhuang, shi li and fa li are all the same thing" as you mention?

[Hendrik]

Just checked again, no level, just empty air practice, need partners to learn how to connect.

Are these guys trying to sell something?



My view on this

Miqi stuffs is as the following,


with all these youtubes,
they can mimic and immitate ....Yiquan etc

but they dont get the Fa li part right.



So their power generation default back to usual boxing type of power generation, with that, certainly they cant get the power similar to Fung and not recognize what Fung does.



So, the more they train the more they become Boxing like.

and then due to they cant get the power similar to Fung, they think that , after went throught the great dis-apointing enligthement, they found the truth, and that Fung's Yiquan power/momentum generatation is fake and their is the correct one.

knowing not they have never enter the door of Yiquan fali. not to mention, if these type of "dis-apointing " art meeting some one like sifu Cai Song-Fang will be toss around like salad in the bow.


Thus, I am curious who is the sifu of propagating this type of Yiquan.

[YiQuanOne]

My view on this

Miqi stuffs is as the following,


with all these youtubes,
they can mimic and immitate ....Yiquan etc

but they dont get the Fa li part right.



So their power generation default back to usual boxing type of power generation, with that, certainly they cant get the power similar to Fung and not recognize what Fung does.



So, the more they train the more they become Boxing like.

and then due to they cant get the power similar to Fung, they think that , after went throught the great dis-apointing enligthement, they found the truth, and that Fung's Yiquan power/momentum generatation is fake and their is the correct one.

knowing not they have never enter the door of Yiquan fali. not to mention, if these type of "dis-apointing " art meeting some one like sifu Cai Song-Fang will be toss around like salad in the bow.


Thus, I am curious who is the sifu of propagating this type of Yiquan.

Yes I agree, one generation down and already off track.

This is why he was so disappointed, they are doing boxing, and can't find the energy transmission method.

This happens with a lot of the TCMA's, people that are in a hurry to claim fame and ride the coat tails of someone or something already popularized our famous.

All styles get watered down over time, some are brought back by good teachers that are able to put it all back together by finding out what was missing.

[Hendrik]

Yes I agree, one generation down and already off track.

This is why he was so disappointed, they are doing boxing, and can't find the energy transmission method.

This happens with a lot of the TCMA's, people that are in a hurry to claim fame and ride the coat tails of someone or something already popularized our famous.

All styles get watered down over time, some are brought back by good teachers that are able to put it all back together by finding out what was missing.



yes, evolution.

Nothing right or wrong, things just changes and evolve.


I have no issue with how one wants to evolve their art.

However, bad mouthing Fung , start personal attack toward me, and challenge "who dare" without be able to pin point the technical mechanics of Yiquan fa li is not a proper way.

Fung on the other hand even though has some exaggeration he still is using Yiquan fa li in an authentic way. His Yiquan fa li can be identified.

[Hendrik]

compare the following push hand look at how power/momentum is generate and what is the different signature.

1,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUJSE8kMXFc&feature=relmfu

2,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qK8qOXmzNY8



3, look at 3.13 on push hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtLipqVligY&NR=1&feature=fvwp


#1 , show an ordinary muscle body push/wrestling type which is not the type of momentum generation in #2 and #3 in Yiquan fa li.




also,
Zhang Zhuang is not Shi li, fa li...etc take a look 2.13 --- in #3.

[extrajoseph]

The idea of yiquan which you present is simply an expectation. We've all been there. It's what attracted us to yiquan in the first place. But then yiquan becomes a filter, to separate those who want the real Chinese martial arts and fighting knowledge from those who actually, if they're honest, were looking for something else.

My two cents worth:

The concept of Qi is really the synergetic coming together of one's posture/movement (Di or the Earth component), mind intent (Tian of the Heaven component) and breath (Ren or the Human component), when your Zhan Zhuang is done correctly you will feel the Qi of push and pull because the whole body and mind (Yi and Quan) are connected together and become effective because the Inner and the Outer are unified (Nei Wai Xiang He 內外相合).

Qi is not something magical nor an expectation, whether one use the term or not is immaterial, the result is plainly evident when testing strength with another. The one with better Qi, or a better co-ordination of the body, mind and spirit/breath will win and when the San Cai Qi of Tian, Di and Ren is broken, one will lose to another whose Qi is not broken, or whose co-ordination of body, mind and breath is more together.

This applies to not only Yiquan but to all forms of TCMA as well and that is why the term Qi is used, but if one thinks Qi is something on its own and not a synergetic coming together of different things, then it is better not to mention the term at all because you won't find Qi there.

[KC Elbows]

My two cents worth:

The concept of Qi is really the synergetic coming together of one's posture/movement (Di or the Earth component), mind intent (Tian of the Heaven component) and breath (Ren or the Human component), when your Zhan Zhuang is done correctly you will feel the Qi of push and pull because the whole body and mind (Yi and Quan) are connected together and become effective because the Inner and the Outer are unified (Nei Wai Xiang He 內外相合).

Qi is not something magical nor an expectation, whether one use the term or not is immaterial, the result is plainly evident when testing strength with another. The one with better Qi, or a better co-ordination of the body, mind and spirit/breath will win and when the San Cai Qi of Tian, Di and Ren is broken, one will lose to another whose Qi is not broken, or whose co-ordination of body, mind and breath is more together.

This applies to not only Yiquan but to all forms of TCMA as well and that is why the term Qi is used, but if one thinks Qi is something on its own and not a synergetic coming together of different things, then it is better not to mention the term at all because you won't find Qi there.

I like this post.

[Scott R. Brown]

I like this post.

I liked it too, but Chris and I have been saying the same thing here for years!

But it is nice to know not everyone drinks the koolade!

[KC Elbows]

I liked it too, but Chris and I have been saying the same thing here for years!



Yes, you two have been saying the same thing here for years.:D

[Hendrik]

My two cents worth:

The concept of Qi is really the synergetic coming together of one's posture/movement (Di or the Earth component), mind intent (Tian of the Heaven component) and breath (Ren or the Human component), when your Zhan Zhuang is done correctly you will feel the Qi of push and pull because the whole body and mind (Yi and Quan) are connected together and become effective because the Inner and the Outer are unified (Nei Wai Xiang He 內外相合).

Qi is not something magical nor an expectation, whether one use the term or not is immaterial, the result is plainly evident when testing strength with another. The one with better Qi, or a better co-ordination of the body, mind and spirit/breath will win and when the San Cai Qi of Tian, Di and Ren is broken, one will lose to another whose Qi is not broken, or whose co-ordination of body, mind and breath is more together.

This applies to not only Yiquan but to all forms of TCMA as well and that is why the term Qi is used, but if one thinks Qi is something on its own and not a synergetic coming together of different things, then it is better not to mention the term at all because you won't find Qi there.


Great post!


For beginner this is a good way to look at it, since this approach is within thinking realm approach.

In intermediate level, when one be able to go beyond the thinking realm, Qi does exist on its own.

[extrajoseph]

In intermediate level, when one be able to go beyond the thinking realm, Qi does exist on its own.

Qi is Yin and Yang, Qi is synergy, so Qi do not exist on its own, no matter what level we are talking about, it exists in relationship with other things. Besides, even beyond the thinking realm there is still the body and the spirit to make up the Vital Qi, so how can it exist on its own?

[Hendrik]

Qi is Yin and Yang, Qi is synergy, so Qi do not exist on its own, no matter what level we are talking about, it exists in relationship with other things.

Besides, even beyond the thinking realm there is still the body and the spirit to make up the Vital Qi, so how can it exist on its own?


The issue here is one think Qi needs to be "approved" by thinking logic to exist. That is the limitation of thinking realm. That is the issue of western thinking of Newtonian philosophy science -- Everything has to making sense and "approved" by thinking. This type of action has its merit on what one has already experience but it is a limitation on what one has not experience but trying to extrapolate facts.

Thus, using the above Newtonian philosophy type of mind set to practice Chinese alchemy which directly experience the nature is problematic.




Qi is not Yin and Yang. Qi is Qi.
Qi flows in one's body 24/7/365.
Qi can be grow, accumulate, and lead to a certain way to transform physical body. those are facts one faces when on get up to that level.




內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified, without able to 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will not get far.

氣沉丹田最主要的是氣與心相守於丹田,要把氣照顧的好好的,不使其散慢或流失,久之則有匯聚的效果氣，是可 以儲存的，是可以積蓄的，氣，是一種實質的量能，不是空無、空洞、虛幻的東西，可以透過訓練而被儲存、積蓄 ，而被導引、牽動、帶領、鼓盪，這是合乎邏輯的，也是可能實證的.

until one knows how to 气沉丹田 sink Qi into Dan Dien, practically, one has not even started the intermediate level of body transformation/ strengthening part of internal TCMA yet. thus will not be able to yield any further benifit.

Due to most people has never enter into the intermediate or above level, most choose to discard it or to explain it such that it is reasonable for them. however,
those act are just shut the door to advance TCMA.

it is always easy and convernient for us to explain away what we cannot do.

and then there are those who will start the arguement on " cannot be measure scientifically".
Those are just absurd arguement. recent scientific method cannot measure Qi doesnt mean doesnt exist. it is like incurable disease is incurable by certain view but not the disease cannot be cured.

also, anyone who has trained in 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will telll you, sure, argue whatever you like and I am happy you keep yourself blind so that I can defeat you with ease.

[Northwind]

But it is nice to know not everyone drinks the koolade!

I will take that koolade only if that big koolade dude will come busting through the walls.

[extrajoseph]

The issue here is one think Qi needs to be "approved" by thinking logic to exist. That is the limitation of thinking realm. That is the issue of western thinking of Newtonian philosophy science -- Everything has to making sense and "approved" by thinking. This type of action has its merit on what one has already experience but it is a limitation on what one has not experience but trying to extrapolate facts.


Qi is not Yin and Yang. Qi is Qi.
Qi flows in one's body 24/7/365.
Qi can be grow, accumulate, and lead to a certain way to transform physical body. those are facts one faces when on get up to that level.

內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified, without able to 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will not get far.

氣沉丹田最主要的是氣與心相守於丹田,要把氣照顧的好好的,不使其散慢或流失,久之則有匯聚的效果氣，是可 以儲存的，是可以積蓄的，氣，是一種實質的量能，不是空無、空洞、虛幻的東西，可以透過訓練而被儲存、積蓄 ，而被導引、牽動、帶領、鼓盪，這是合乎邏輯的，也是可能實證的.

Sure, Qi is also a potential to be while remain itself, so it can transform physical body when the potential is there and here lies the Yin and Yang again (what it is and what it can be).

One can also say without 內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified, it is not possible to 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian, so it is a case of chicken or egg of Yin and Yang again - a synergy of many things in their to and flow. Without a proper "External" posture the Heart Mind and the Qi would not be able to hold-fast to the Dan Tian.

As you quoted in Chinese, Qi is not something imaginary, it is real and can be trained and cultivated.

There is nothing wrong with thinking as long as feeling goes with it, so feeling and thinking can go hand in hand, like Newtonian Physics with Quantum Mechanics. Why limit ourselves only to Eastern way of feeling when we can also use the Western way of thinking?

Qi is universal because it do not exist on its own, it is a continuum. Qi is Qi, Qi is also Yin and Yang, Qi can be both (and more). It is not a question of approval, it is a question of acceptance of being what it is.

[extrajoseph]

until one knows how to 气沉丹田 sink Qi into Dan Dien, practically, one has not even started the intermediate level of body transformation/ strengthening part of internal TCMA yet. thus will not be able to yield any further benifit.

Due to most people has never enter into the intermediate or above level, most choose to discard it or to explain it such that it is reasonable for them. however,
those act are just shut the door to advance TCMA.

it is always easy and convernient for us to explain away what we cannot do.

and then there are those who will start the arguement on " cannot be measure scientifically".
Those are just absurd arguement. recent scientific method cannot measure Qi doesnt mean doesnt exist. it is like incurable disease is incurable by certain view but not the disease cannot be cured.

also, anyone who has trained in 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will telll you, sure, argue whatever you like and I am happy you keep yourself blind so that I can defeat you with ease.

If only it is that simple, just to be able to sink the Qi to the Dantian and be able to defeat anyone with ease!

[Hendrik]

One can also say without 內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified,

it is not possible to 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian, so it is a case of chicken or egg of Yin and Yang again - a synergy of many things in their to and flow.

Without a proper "External" posture the Heart Mind and the Qi would not be able to hold-fast to the Dan Tian.




The above is not true at all.

內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified and 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian are totally different things working in different realm. it is like physics and chemistry.


one doesnt need proper "external" posture to do sink Qi into Dan Tian. one doesnt need physics for chemical reaction to take place.

also, there is no Yin and Yang involve in Sinking Qi into Dan Tian.

[Hendrik]

If only it is that simple, just to be able to sink the Qi to the Dantian and be able to defeat anyone with ease!



Be able to sink Qi to Dantian means atleast 2X or more power one gain, and there on not limit by one's born physical condition as others.

one might not be able to defeat anyone with ease, however, one will sure defeat lots of people one cannot defeat before.


Get a sifu who really know and try it, you will never go back.

[Hendrik]

Qi is universal because it do not exist on its own, it is a continuum.

Qi is Qi,

Qi is also Yin and Yang, Qi can be both (and more). It is not a question of approval, it is a question of acceptance of being what it is.


This type of thinking is confusion. which lead to the totally confusion of the western world where everything is Qi, Qi is fortune telling, Qi is Feng Sui, Qi is Lao Tzu, Qi is dao, Qi is everything....

sure, everyone is the Qi Yin Yang masters and none know what the heck it is.
it is a mental opium.


and then there are those who totally against Qi in the west and have all kind of theories ..
those too are drugs.

[extrajoseph]

Imagine someone standing with his or her body tilted backward or forward, do you think the Qi can sink to the Dantian?

You have to stop breathing if there is no Yin and Yang involve in Sinking Qi into the Dantian.

In light of the above, 內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified and 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian are not totally different things, but two sides of the same coin. BTW, to sink the Qi it has to rise to the top first. In and out, up and down, rising and sinking, etc. Yin and Yang again.

[extrajoseph]

This type of thinking is confusion. which lead to the totally confusion of the western world where everything is Qi and Qi is Feng Sui, Qi is Lao Tzu, Qi is everything....

such as this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHqEwyhqQTI

sure, everyone is the masters and none know what the heck it is.

it is a mental opium.

Al is not a good example of someone who knows, he is more of an actor than a practitioner....

[extrajoseph]

The above is not true at all.

內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified and 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian are totally different things working in different realm. it is like physics and chemistry.


one doesnt need proper "external" posture to do sink Qi into Dan Tian. one doesnt need physics for chemical reaction to take place.

also, there is no Yin and Yang involve in Sinking Qi into Dan Tian.

You sure have a Western mind masquerade as an Eastern one, dividing everything into their little boxes...

[Hendrik]

Imagine someone standing with his or her body tilted backward or forward, do you think the Qi can sink to the Dantian?

You have to stop breathing if there is no Yin and Yang involve in Sinking Qi into the Dantian.

since you are leading to the extreme just try to prove you are right.

why not saying imagine someone is tangle in the neck and dead,

that is better to prove your points.




In light of the above, 內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified and 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Tian are not totally different things, but two sides of the same coin. BTW, to sink the Qi it has to rise to the top first. In and out, up and down, rising and sinking, etc. Yin and Yang again.

ok, if you like to say so.

So, share with us,
how to do sink qi to Dan dien ?

[Hendrik]

Al is not a good example of someone who knows, he is more of an actor than a practitioner....



I just remove Al Clip in my post because I think he does some great things and contribute to the oriental philosophy in the west.

[Hendrik]

You sure have a Western mind masquerade as an Eastern one, dividing everything into their little boxes...


It is call engineering mind. how to make it works and repeatable.

what is the dominant factor and second order factor.


without clear on the process, how can it works?

[SPJ]

I have an eastern mindset with western educations.

:D

[extrajoseph]

So, share with us,
how to do sink qi to Dan dien ?

This guy in the photo doing Zhan Zhuang is not too bad in sinking the Qi to the Dantian, you can first copy the external posture and then go to his classes to learn the rest.

[extrajoseph]

It is call engineering mind. how to make it works and repeatable.

what is the dominant factor and second order factor.


without clear on the process, how can it works?

That is just the beginning, "fen yin yang" first and then work out how to integrate the two (the dominant and the secondary in this case) to arrive at the third, the Golden Mean is how it can work in practice. Keeping them separated and on their own would get you nowhere.

[YiQuanOne]

The issue here is one think Qi needs to be "approved" by thinking logic to exist. That is the limitation of thinking realm. That is the issue of western thinking of Newtonian philosophy science -- Everything has to making sense and "approved" by thinking. This type of action has its merit on what one has already experience but it is a limitation on what one has not experience but trying to extrapolate facts.

Thus, using the above Newtonian philosophy type of mind set to practice Chinese alchemy which directly experience the nature is problematic.




Qi is not Yin and Yang. Qi is Qi.
Qi flows in one's body 24/7/365.
Qi can be grow, accumulate, and lead to a certain way to transform physical body. those are facts one faces when on get up to that level.




內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified, without able to 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will not get far.

氣沉丹田最主要的是氣與心相守於丹田,要把氣照顧的好好的,不使其散慢或流失,久之則有匯聚的效果氣，是可 以儲存的，是可以積蓄的，氣，是一種實質的量能，不是空無、空洞、虛幻的東西，可以透過訓練而被儲存、積蓄 ，而被導引、牽動、帶領、鼓盪，這是合乎邏輯的，也是可能實證的.

until one knows how to 气沉丹田 sink Qi into Dan Dien, practically, one has not even started the intermediate level of body transformation/ strengthening part of internal TCMA yet. thus will not be able to yield any further benifit.

Due to most people has never enter into the intermediate or above level, most choose to discard it or to explain it such that it is reasonable for them. however,
those act are just shut the door to advance TCMA.

it is always easy and convernient for us to explain away what we cannot do.

and then there are those who will start the arguement on " cannot be measure scientifically".
Those are just absurd arguement. recent scientific method cannot measure Qi doesnt mean doesnt exist. it is like incurable disease is incurable by certain view but not the disease cannot be cured.

also, anyone who has trained in 气沉丹田 or sink Qi into Dan Dien will telll you, sure, argue whatever you like and I am happy you keep yourself blind so that I can defeat you with ease.

I agree with this!

The problem with most people is they always do form work and sets and never build up enough or any Chi in the Dan-Dien which would enable them to move on to the next level.

These kinds of people always think they have something because they have been practicing for so long doing their sets and they think they feel something.

But is is usally just their imagination.

[extrajoseph]

This type of thinking is confusion. which lead to the totally confusion of the western world where everything is Qi, Qi is fortune telling, Qi is Feng Sui, Qi is Lao Tzu, Qi is dao, Qi is everything....


Well that is the assumption the Chinese made in their cultural paradigm - everything under the sun, be it organic or inorganic has qi, and anything that has qi also has Yin Yang, therefore everything is interconnected.

If you don't buy this kind of mini world-view, why bother with anything to do with the Chinese culture? Better spend your time with engineering....

[YiQuanOne]

This guy in the photo doing Zhan Zhuang is not too bad in sinking the Qi to the Dantian, you can first copy the external posture and then go to his classes to learn the rest.


There all all kinds of different standing postures, and each one has a reason for doing it.

[extrajoseph]

I agree with this!

The problem with most people is they always do form work and sets and never build up enough or any Chi in the Dan-Dien which would enable them to move on to the next level.

These kinds of people always think they have something because they have been practicing for so long doing their sets and they think they feel something.

But is is usally just their imagination.

Sets when done well, do have the Qi sunk to the Dantian in every move, not only sink to the Dantian but rotate in the Dantian as well, but I agree with you not everyone can do that.

[YiQuanOne]

Sets when done well, do have the Qi sunk to the Dantian in every move, but I agree with you not everyone can do that.

If people can't sink the chi when standing still, I don't see how people think they can do it while moving.

If people can sink and build up first, then they can try to move and keep the same thing going.

If the chi is stored and built up enough it will then start to move you.

[Scott R. Brown]

I will take that koolade only if that big koolade dude will come busting through the walls.

OH YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!


.....also, there is no Yin and Yang involve in Sinking Qi into Dan Tian.

There is nothing that does not involve Yin and Yang. Any time a distinction is made Yin and Yang spring from the distinction.

As long as one postulates the existence of Qi, the principles of Yin and Yang influence it!


how to do sink qi to Dan dien ?

The sinking of Qi into the tan tien is, again, a biomechanical process.

Most people carry their tension and nervous energy in the shoulders and neck. These people are high chest breathers. Both of these actions move one's center of gravity up.

When one practices breathing from the stomach, and moves from their hips, their center of gravity moves lower, into the tan tien.

This may be distinctly felt for anyone with a modicum of body awareness.

[Hendrik]

This guy in the photo doing Zhan Zhuang is not too bad in sinking the Qi to the Dantian, you can first copy the external posture and then go to his classes to learn the rest.



1, Sinking Qi to the Dantian doesnt need this type of Zhan Zhuang. in fact, one can sink qi to the Dantian laying on bed or sitting in the sofa.

2, Sinking Qi to the Dantian is so easy that it takes 3 sentences instruction to do it. and after that one doesnt even needs to use one's brain to do it.
That simple.


3, hahaha Your post shows you dont know what is Sinking Qi to the Dantian, (joking) :D

I have tell the world 內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified got little todo with how to sinking Qi to the Dantian.

in fact they are different things.
內外相合 or Inner and the Outer are unified is for coordination and syncronization, IE four wheel drive system of the car.
and sinking Qi to Dantian is the process of accumulation Qi. IE: combustion system of the car.


if one cant get this clear, then it is hopeless. one can keep turning the driving wheel and align it but the car would not start.

[extrajoseph]

Do you think the combustion system will do any good if the four wheel drive system don't work? The car will just remain in one spot even if it can start with a bang.

[Hendrik]

That is just the beginning,

"fen yin yang" first and then work out how to integrate the two (the dominant and the secondary in this case) to arrive at the third, the Golden Mean is how it can work in practice.

Keeping them separated and on their own would get you nowhere.


Sinking Qi into Dantian doesnt go with "fen yin yang" or spliting the Yin and Yang, and what you suggest above.

in fact Sinking Qi into Dantian is reverse of Fen Yin yang or the above.


From this it shows you dont have the theory and thus no way you could implement it.

So, in industrial engineering sense, you dont have the theory, the technology, the process, thus, there will be no result. and repeatable is impossible.

[Hendrik]

The sinking of Qi into the tan tien is, again, a biomechanical process.

Most people carry their tension and nervous energy in the shoulders and neck. These people are high chest breathers. Both of these actions move one's center of gravity up.

When one practices breathing from the stomach, and moves from their hips, their center of gravity moves lower, into the tan tien.

This may be distinctly felt for anyone with a modicum of body awareness.


nope, not a biomechanical process.

it is a chemical process.
Sure one needs a chemical container for the process to activate but it is a chemical process.


you are chasing ghost if you go the biomechanical path.

[Hendrik]

Do you think the combustion system will do any good if the four wheel drive system don't work? The car will just remain in one spot even if it can start with a bang.


I am not talking about car.

I am talking Sinking Qi into Dan Dien and what it is.

What is a chance in engineering wise,
that , you could build a car, if you dont know how many system are there in the car, and cannot clearly identify which system is doing what?

That is the reality of Chinese Kung Fu or even worst the Chinese Internal martial art,
Our world fill with all kind of people and master who doesnt know the different between physics and chemistry, That is how sad it is. one needs to get out of this way to make something usefull happen and get result.

[Hendrik]

My favorite song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjVHoRd0fn4


I am not here to insult anyone.

I am just trying to tell the world the IMA works only if one is clear with what one is doing.

or else we are totally screwed.


99% of the problem which cannot make IMA work is because one doesnt have a clear view on what it is and what it can or cannot do.

instead travel one's own imagination path and then complain it doesnt work
or cover it up with all kinds of strange philosophy concept , on something totally doesnt making any sense at all, and impossible to work in order to safe one's face or that master title.

[Hendrik]

listen and watch this youtube is already lead you to sink your Qi to Dan Dien area, the issue here is it passed the Dan Dien, instead of collecting the Qi, it goes to the draining path or physical sexual desire path and one has no control.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4H_Zoh7G5A&feature=fvwrel
So, dont tell me it is biomechanics. it is absolutely Chemistry.



one can also make another experiment, watch some horror movie or think something you have fear which could scare and shock you or even wet your pants. that is how the Qi is dissipated .

So the above on sex is draining focusly. and the scare is dissipated chaosly.





So, some says, oh, can your art be used under pressure? Sure, if you can accumulate your Qi and dont let it drain or dissipate. and that needs kung fu or sink Qi to dan dian. another word, you dont have those chemical reaction going.

so, who said it is just mental?

Nope. Qi is all about Body Chemistry. once the Chemistry reaction started you need to spend much bigger energy to stop it. or perhaps even impossible to stop it, because you cant shut it down right away once the chemical reaction started --- your sex drive, your fear, your anger....ect those are real life stuffs which one can you handle?


So, dont be naive. Qi is the the bridge between the mind and body. it is chemistry. and if you dont have those type of training, you will not be able to do it.


So, why cant you know about Qi? because you keep looking at the mental, the physical, the spiritual, the imaginary.. the scientific.........etc. well, you have looked in the wrong place.

[Hendrik]

so, in the IMA one has the physical/ momentum, mind/awareness, Qi/body Chemistry training for the transformation. and then the fighting applications.

Qi is practically natural steroid.

at the peak of TCMA development in the early of Qing Dynasty, those are the holistic TCMA.
there is nothing mysterious at all.

[Northwind]

I've waited long enough...Just because I know English is not everyone's first language. But since I've had a beer or two tonight, I thought I would step over my own personal line and say...


No...This is NOT facts....But perhaps this might be a fact or these are facts...

Had to dance with the singular vs. plural thing and just be a ******** for a minutes :P Sorry.

[Scott R. Brown]

nope, not a biomechanical process.

it is a chemical process.
Sure one needs a chemical container for the process to activate but it is a chemical process.


you are chasing ghost if you go the biomechanical path.

Unless you can show me a video demonstrating its a chemical process, hell I'll even accept a lab result, I'll stick with the biomechanical explanation!

[Hendrik]

Unless you can show me a video demonstrating its a chemical process, hell I'll even accept a lab result, I'll stick with the biomechanical explanation!

sure,

just go watch a porno movie and see for yourself . hahaha

[shaolin_allan]

there's a lot of pointless arguments in this thread but im just glad to see people keeping this section of the forum going and just to hear ppl talk about yi quan to be honest. lets get into some of the other good stuff also next like pigua zhang/quan ;)

[Hendrik]

I've waited long enough...Just because I know English is not everyone's first language. But since I've had a beer or two tonight, I thought I would step over my own personal line and say...


No...This is NOT facts....But perhaps this might be a fact or these are facts...

Had to dance with the singular vs. plural thing and just be a ******** for a minutes :P Sorry.

Just join in and have some fun!

[extrajoseph]

So, why cant you know about Qi? because you keep looking at the mental, the physical, the spiritual, the imaginary.. the scientific.........etc. well, you have looked in the wrong place.

There is no wrong or right place to look, Qi is everywhere. Right or wrong is only in your head, even when you are having fun, your Qi is showing.

[Northwind]

Just join in and have some fun!

lol
Trying. It's a tough gamble :)

[Scott R. Brown]

there's a lot of pointless arguments in this thread but im just glad to see people keeping this section of the forum going and just to hear ppl talk about yi quan to be honest. lets get into some of the other good stuff also next like pigua zhang/quan ;)

Most arguments are pointless!

But........according to Yin-Yang theory, without disagreement there is no motivation for change! We end up with a milk-toast existence wherein everyone agrees and there is no orignality, innovation, change, stimulation, growth, etc.

Conflict is what makes life interesting and challenging!

[YouKnowWho]

without disagreement there is no motivation for change!
Agree with you 100% there. Sometime when someone said something the 1st time, we might not be happy to hear what he had said. But if we dig into it, it may change the rest of our life.

Since the "head lock" is my favor move. I had spent a great deal of my training time into it. Oneday a friend of mind said, "If I keep moving back, there is no way that you can put your head lock on me." I wasn't too happy about his comment. I then tested it against someone and I had proved what my friend said was correct. Since I have always considered that my opponent always wants to attack me. I have never considered if my opponent tries to run away from me. My friend's comment just help me to fill a big hole that I had totally ignored in my training.

[Northwind]

Since the "head lock" is my favor move.
Hey would you mind explaining or pointing to a vid on what you mean by head lock? Not being an @$$ here, just I've seen you mention it a couple of times and I don't really know what you mean. I have something in bsl that I call a head lock but I can't really know if its the same thing that you mean. Does that make sense? :P

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a head lock.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/headlock.jpg/

here is a reverse head lock.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/572/reverseheadlock1.jpg

[Northwind]

Okay. I get what you mean. Thanks, John. The one I was thinking of is similar, but when you pull the top of the head to the center and then crank. But now I know which one you mean. :) Thanks.

[YouKnowWho]

pull the top of the head to the center and then crank.

You are right! To put your opponent's head on your chest is very important.

[rett]

2, Sinking Qi to the Dantian is so easy that it takes 3 sentences instruction to do it. and after that one doesnt even needs to use one's brain to do it.
That simple.

What are the three sentences?

[extrajoseph]

listen and watch this youtube is already lead you to sink your Qi to Dan Dien area, the issue here is it passed the Dan Dien, instead of collecting the Qi, it goes to the draining path or physical sexual desire path and one has no control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4H_Zoh7G5A&feature=fvwrel
So, dont tell me it is biomechanics. it is absolutely Chemistry.

one can also make another experiment, watch some horror movie or think something you have fear which could scare and shock you or even wet your pants. that is how the Qi is dissipated .

So the above on sex is draining focusly. and the scare is dissipated chaosly.


You may find sex draining and fear dissipating but others, who know how to sink the qi and how to circulate it properly, will find sex energizing and fear concentrating, so there is no need to assume that everyone does the same as you do and it is only chemistry.

[rett]

fear concentrating,

This made me think of an aside comment. The patch of woods where I train has a lot of wild boars and some moose. I run across them fairly regularly. And where I used to live and where I still sometimes visit has some wolf and bears, but I never ran into them. Walking up there and having to be alert for animals creates a frame of mind that feels perfect for training. Especially if you're paying no attention and then suddenly you become aware of the animal observing you.

[taai gihk yahn]

nope, not a biomechanical process.

it is a chemical process.
Sure one needs a chemical container for the process to activate but it is a chemical process.


you are chasing ghost if you go the biomechanical path.

biomechanics is, ultimately, chemistry; this is fact; look at operation of connective tissue matrix in context of tensegrity structure and function; there is only a difference of scope;

[Hendrik]

You may find sex draining and fear dissipating but others, who know how to sink the qi and how to circulate it properly,

will find sex energizing and fear concentrating,

so there is no need to assume that everyone does the same as you do and it is only chemistry.




There is no assumption here because human are human.

There is no such thing as sex energizing and fear concentrating in the realm of proper Qigong practice ( not talking the evil path of taking others Qi to energize oneself in sex).

[Hendrik]

biomechanics is, ultimately, chemistry; this is fact; look at operation of connective tissue matrix in context of tensegrity structure and function; there is only a difference of scope;


ok. so how to do sink qi to dan tian for you via biomechanics?

[taai gihk yahn]

ok. so how to do sink qi to dan tian for you via biomechanics?

via intrinsic properties of connective tissue matrix when activated by breath

[extrajoseph]

There is no assumption here because human are human.

There is no such thing as sex energizing and fear concentrating in the realm of proper Qigong practice ( not talking the evil path of taking others Qi to energize oneself in sex).

Then what are you talking about (see your own quote below)? If proper Qigong cannot help you to energize and concentrate, why bother?


Originally Posted by Hendrik
listen and watch this youtube is already lead you to sink your Qi to Dan Dien area, the issue here is it passed the Dan Dien, instead of collecting the Qi, it goes to the draining path or physical sexual desire path and one has no control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4H_Z...feature=fvwrel
So, dont tell me it is biomechanics. it is absolutely Chemistry.

one can also make another experiment, watch some horror movie or think something you have fear which could scare and shock you or even wet your pants. that is how the Qi is dissipated .

So the above on sex is draining focusly. and the scare is dissipated chaosly.

[Scott R. Brown]

There is no assumption here because human are human.

There is no such thing as sex energizing and fear concentrating in the realm of proper Qigong practice ( not talking the evil path of taking others Qi to energize oneself in sex).

What is it like being wrong all the time Hendrik?

Once again, just because you can't do something, or haven't heard of it doesn't mean it isn't done by others.

There IS a sex energizing process, I would not attribute it to Qi, but Qi Gong exercise certainly could be used. I have done it myself many times! Sex has viirtually NEVER relaxed me! It has always energized me!

[Hendrik]

via intrinsic properties of connective tissue matrix when activated by breath


ok. how to do it?

can your brain knows what is an " intrinsic properties of connective tissue matrix "?

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by extrajoseph View Post

You may find sex draining and fear dissipating but others, who know how to sink the qi and how to circulate it properly,

will find sex energizing and fear concentrating,

so there is no need to assume that everyone does the same as you do and it is only chemistry.




Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post

There is no assumption here because human are human.

There is no such thing as sex energizing and fear concentrating in the realm of proper Qigong practice ( not talking the evil path of taking others Qi to energize oneself in sex).





Then what are you talking about (see your own quote below)? If proper Qigong cannot help you to energize and concentrate, why bother?




Originally Posted by Hendrik
listen and watch this youtube is already lead you to sink your Qi to Dan Dien area, the issue here is it passed the Dan Dien, instead of collecting the Qi, it goes to the draining path or physical sexual desire path and one has no control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4H_Z...feature=fvwrel
So, dont tell me it is biomechanics. it is absolutely Chemistry.

one can also make another experiment, watch some horror movie or think something you have fear which could scare and shock you or even wet your pants. that is how the Qi is dissipated .

So the above on sex is draining focusly. and the scare is dissipated chaosly.



Re read my post above.

and what is your point?

anyone who got proper training in Qigong knows

1, 100 days of no sex, distance from fear, anger and emotion extrme.

2 after the 100 days, frequency of having sex must be reduced big time to avoid draining.

[Hendrik]

What is it like being wrong all the time Hendrik?

Once again, just because you can't do something, or haven't heard of it doesn't mean it isn't done by others.

There IS a sex energizing process, I would not attribute it to Qi, but Qi Gong exercise certainly could be used.

I have done it myself many times! Sex has viirtually NEVER relaxed me! It has always energized me!



There IS a sex energizing process? energized you?
it is suicide for those who has Qigong.


sure, drink some coffee and you are energized, is that energized?

when one cannot differentiate between stimulus energy drain and energized that is the problem.

[YiQuanOne]

Is anybody learning anything, or is the earth still flat?.

[Hendrik]

we almost could see a trend here.

1, everyone wants to go his way and ignore what is the principle of Qi cultivation.

2, everyone wants his own explanation as how they think.


#1 and #2 shows one has never have proper Qigong or internal training but like to be an expert in it. an experts who claims Qi doesnt exist or an expert who claims everything is Qi.


That is how Qigong or IMA in the west.

Thus, Miqi is correct, one needs to be " dis-appointed" in this type of world because everyone is fantasying they are the one who knows .


being "dis-appointed" is a solution because Zero is a solution of everything.

[Hendrik]

Is anybody learning anything, or is the earth still flat?.



there is no insentive to learn the real deal because everyone cant give up the big Guru of Qi title.

learning the real deal means to admit one doesnt know anything. and that is a no no in a society that everyone want to be a star or have say on everything.

So, the saga continuous,

for some, there is no Qi, there is no Qi sink to Dan tien, because it is non scientific.

for some, everything is Qi, you have it and I have it, and no one needs to learn it, you promote me and I promote you and our world is fine, everyone is the masters.


life goes on as usual. and everyone is happy.


Can anyone sink Qi to Dan dien? nope.


Qi is not everything but most of us really doesnt care what it is. we all are like that me included.

[Hendrik]

when we cant do momentum handling, cant do sink Qi to dan tian, cant do Fa li.

what kind of Chinese Internal martial art is that?


better off go learn some boxing in the gym.

[rett]

Can anyone sink Qi to Dan dien? nope.


So why not explain how in three simple sentences? Please?

[extrajoseph]

Re read my post above.

and what is your point?

anyone who got proper training in Qigong knows

1, 100 days of no sex, distance from fear, anger and emotion extrme.

2 after the 100 days, frequency of having sex must be reduced big time to avoid draining.

My point is you have no idea of what you are talking about, you are just talking for the sake of talking. Anyone who does proper Qigong would know how to harness his or her sexual energy and can manage fear, anger and emotional extremes without being drained. If you can sink your Qi to the lower Dantian, sex is not something you need to avoid, sex is something you can enjoy.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
Re read my post above.

and what is your point?

anyone who got proper training in Qigong knows

1, 100 days of no sex, distance from fear, anger and emotion extrme.

2 after the 100 days, frequency of having sex must be reduced big time to avoid draining.



My point is you have no idea of what you are talking about, you are just talking for the sake of talking.

Anyone who does proper Qigong would know how to harness his or her sexual energy and can manage fear, anger and emotional extremes without being drained.

If you can sink your Qi to the lower Dantian, sex is not something you need to avoid, sex is something you can enjoy.



I wish you are correct.

some one wants to translate the following internal practice of Shao LIn?


禅机奥理在气化，要练好心意，才能以丹田之气导引自然之气，要能感觉到气的流动，畅通无阻，从而导引通达到 精微末梢，进而洗筋伐髓，随心所欲，逐渐走向禅心、禅意


心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。

试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武 一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。


BTW
终生独身 means staying single for a life time. meaning NO SEX for a life time.

[Hendrik]

So why not explain how in three simple sentences? Please?


This is what the expert said


Originally Posted by extrajoseph View Post
My point is you have no idea of what you are talking about, you are just talking for the sake of talking.

Anyone who does proper Qigong would know how to harness his or her sexual energy and can manage fear, anger and emotional extremes without being drained.

If you can sink your Qi to the lower Dantian, sex is not something you need to avoid, sex is something you can enjoy.



So may be he could answer you better then me. also, becarefull, explanation might do nothing in real life.

that is because sound reasoning does not mean one know how it really is.

such as we could say, chemistry, biomechanics, matrix......etc still one doesnt know how to do it.

[rett]

@Hendrik: I'm practicing with faith in the idea that if you train according to the instructions (the physical instructions) and become calm the qi will sink of its own accord.

For example:

Body moves; hands, feet follow
Stepping, turning hip; eyes look along
Upper and lower body accord; qi sinks in dan
Rising and falling; hip turns


So I gave you something. How about you give me the three sentences:)

[Hendrik]

@Hendrik: I'm practicing with faith in the idea that if you train according to the instructions (the physical instructions) and become calm the qi will sink of its own accord.

For example:

Body moves; hands, feet follow
Stepping, turning hip; eyes look along
Upper and lower body accord; qi sinks in dan
Rising and falling; hip turns


So I gave you something. How about you give me the three sentences:)



Nope, these above cant get you there.

one needs to be able to and feel the Qi sinks into dan tian first
and then evoke it while practice the above.

You dont have to believe me. but ask yourself honestly what is Qi sinks into dan tian feel in your practice? if you cant tell, then you dont know.


so, it is the bullet it is not the gun, one can practice the gun as much as one likes but without the bullet. gun has not much use. Sure, one can still use the gun to hit to poke to slam.....etc but it is not hot weapon.

[taai gihk yahn]

ok. how to do it?
I started by learning the "classical" 100-days-opening of micro-orbit and then over time the macro orbit, following the instruction of my sifu and reporting to him my experiences; initially, I needed to follow all the steps and it would take time to feel the "qi" (in big quotes) in the lower dan tien; a key principle was "don't help, don't hinder"; at this point, I can do it instantaneously, and also "direct" (entice might be a better word) it anywhere; also, improving my "teng ging" by doing push hands with 3-5 y/o chidren for about 2 years, was an important piece of this for feeling it instantly in the entire body in all directions at once
that's how I personally do it; I don't know if it would work for anyone else this way, but I don't think it's the only way;


can your brain knows what is an " intrinsic properties of connective tissue matrix "?
if you read up on what constitutes CT (e.g. biochemical properties, differences in functional behavior under tension and compresion loading and response to each over time), and then you spend enough time with your hands working on patient's and spend enough time correlating to what you have studied and felt on others when it changes and then with your own practice, I believe so; it's a combined experience;

[Hendrik]

I started by learning the "classical" 100-days-opening of micro-orbit and then over time the macro orbit, following the instruction of my sifu and reporting to him my experiences; initially, I needed to follow all the steps and it would take time to feel the "qi" (in big quotes) in the lower dan tien; a key principle was "don't help, don't hinder"; at this point, I can do it instantaneously, and also "direct" (entice might be a better word) it anywhere; also, improving my "teng ging" by doing push hands with 3-5 y/o chidren for about 2 years, was an important piece of this for feeling it instantly in the entire body in all directions at once
that's how I personally do it; I don't know if it would work for anyone else this way, but I don't think it's the only way;


if you read up on what constitutes CT (e.g. biochemical properties, differences in functional behavior under tension and compresion loading and response to each over time), and then you spend enough time with your hands working on patient's and spend enough time correlating to what you have studied and felt on others when it changes and then with your own practice, I believe so; it's a combined experience;


Thanks and appreciate for you great sharing!

[Scott R. Brown]

There IS a sex energizing process? energized you?
it is suicide for those who has Qigong.


sure, drink some coffee and you are energized, is that energized?

when one cannot differentiate between stimulus energy drain and energized that is the problem.

No one said anything about coffee! Why do you make things up when you are caught not knowing what you are talking about?

The idea of sex draining a person comes from the parasympathetic response that occurs following climax. Because one feels relaxed and sleepy. This is a natural response that was misinterpreted by the ancients. Since they felt relaxed they believed they were drained of energy/Qi. They misinterpreted their experience, they looked at their glass as half empty rather than half full!

They could just have easily interpreted it as the calm before the storm!



I do not experience the parasympathetic response to the same extent that others do. I do not feel drained following sex. In fact, I ask my wife to put it off for me if I am exceedingly tired, because I won't be able to go to sleep following sex for a couple of hours!

[extrajoseph]

I wish you are correct.

some one wants to translate the following internal practice of Shao LIn?


禅机奥理在气化，要练好心意，才能以丹田之气导引自然之气，要能感觉到气的流动，畅通无阻，从而导引通达到 精微末梢，进而洗筋伐髓，随心所欲，逐渐走向禅心、禅意


心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。

试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武 一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。


BTW
终生独身 means staying single for a life time. meaning NO SEX for a life time.

This is a Shaolin Chan Monk's way of training the 心意 (Heart/Mind), it has a heavy moral content because it is also a religious practice, there are other ways of doing things, you just quoted from books, where is your own experience?

What you said here in this thread showed you have no idea what is Qi, how to sink the Qi to the Dantian and how to circulate the Qi because you don't even know Qi is Yin Yang - that basic. Without making Yin Yang the Vital Qi remains stagnant.

Make Yin Yang with the correct body, breath and mind intent and there will be Qi flow, it is that simple yet extremely complex, because to get this San Cai of body/mind/spirit 身意神 working in a correct synergetic way is not that easy, it takes correct instructions and constant practice and adjustment, not something one can just write about in a thread.

You like to disagree to have some fun (and pinch some ideas, I suspect) but your action also showed what level of understanding you have. Time for you to throw away the books and get some decent instructions, without 言传身授 (direct tansmission and personal instructions) you are not going to get anywhere.

[Hendrik]

This is a Shaolin Chan Monk's way of training the 心意 (Heart/Mind), it has a heavy moral content because it is also a religious practice, there are other ways of doing things, you just quoted from books, where is your own experience?

What you said here in this thread showed you have no idea what is Qi, how to sink the Qi to the Dantian and how to circulate the Qi because you don't even know Qi is Yin Yang - that basic. Without making Yin Yang the Vital Qi remains stagnant.

Make Yin Yang with the correct body, breath and mind intent and there will be Qi flow, it is that simple yet extremely complex, because to get this San Cai of body/mind/spirit 身意神 working in a correct synergetic way is not that easy, it takes correct instructions and constant practice and adjustment, not something one can just write about in a thread.

You like to disagree to have some fun (and pinch some ideas, I suspect) but your action also showed what level of understanding you have. Time for you to throw away the books and get some decent instructions, without 言传身授 (direct tansmission and personal instructions) you are not going to get anywhere.



I am ok with what you like to believe.

[extrajoseph]

As I said in the beginning,
It is just my two cents worth,
Take it or leave it,
What will be will be...

...Keep on trekking.

[Scott R. Brown]

Boy.....THAT is a relief!

Hendrik is okay with how you believe!

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled life free from the fear of Henrik's disapproval!

Good for You!:D

[SimonM]

Meanwhile Hendrik has still declared me an enemy of Yiquan and his Orthodox Qi Branch of Xingyi.

Just call me 东异教徒 (y'know because I like live in the east compared to Hendrik and I'm all heretical and stuff)

[YiQuanOne]

This is a Shaolin Chan Monk's way of training the 心意 (Heart/Mind), it has a heavy moral content because it is also a religious practice, there are other ways of doing things, you just quoted from books, where is your own experience?

What you said here in this thread showed you have no idea what is Qi, how to sink the Qi to the Dantian and how to circulate the Qi because you don't even know Qi is Yin Yang - that basic. Without making Yin Yang the Vital Qi remains stagnant.

Make Yin Yang with the correct body, breath and mind intent and there will be Qi flow, it is that simple yet extremely complex, because to get this San Cai of body/mind/spirit 身意神 working in a correct synergetic way is not that easy, it takes correct instructions and constant practice and adjustment, not something one can just write about in a thread.

You like to disagree to have some fun (and pinch some ideas, I suspect) but your action also showed what level of understanding you have. Time for you to throw away the books and get some decent instructions, without 言传身授 (direct tansmission and personal instructions) you are not going to get anywhere.

I believe standing in the wuji stance does not evoke yin/yang and is the basic cultivation process.

[Scott R. Brown]

I believe standing in the wuji stance does not evoke yin/yang and is the basic cultivation process.

There is no basic cultivation process! The history of Taoism in all its facets is not known or understood by most people, including those who practice this or that form of Taoist teachings.

Taoism is a very diverse and compliicated tradition. I strongly recommend: "Taoism: The Enduring Tradition", by Russell Kirkland. It will open your eyes to the wide variety of Taoist perspectives throughout Chinese history. It is the most comprehensive book I've come across concerning the history of Taosim.

The bottom line here is that there is no ONE way to do anything in Taoist Alchemical Qi Gong! Even these had competing traditions.

Having said that, in reality, there is NO possible way to not interact with the principles of Yin-Yang within ANY area of life! Qi Gong is not special in that Yin-Yang does not apply to it! Yin-Yang applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING in life and it CANNOT be avoided!

[YiQuanOne]

There is no basic cultivation process! The history of Taoism in all its facets is not known or understood by most people, including those who practice this or that form of Taoist teachings.

Taoism is a very diverse and compliicated tradition. I strongly recommend: "Taoism: The Enduring Tradition", by Russell Kirkland. It will open your eyes to the wide variety of Taoist perspectives throughout Chinese history. It is the most comprehensive book I've come across concerning the history of Taosim.

The bottom line here is that there is no ONE way to do anything in Taoist Alchemical Qi Gong! Even these had competing traditions.

Having said that, in reality, there is NO possible way to not interact with the principles of Yin-Yang within ANY area of life! Qi Gong is not special in that Yin-Yang does not apply to it! Yin-Yang applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING in life and it CANNOT be avoided!

Wuji is the generic posture, everything starts from there, before there was anything there was wuji, then yin/yang. It is the state before everything.

Don't get lost in all the special training.

[SimonM]

Scott you know what they say about entering a contest of minds with an unarmed opponent, yeah.

[YiQuanOne]

There is no basic cultivation process! The history of Taoism in all its facets is not known or understood by most people, including those who practice this or that form of Taoist teachings.

Taoism is a very diverse and compliicated tradition. I strongly recommend: "Taoism: The Enduring Tradition", by Russell Kirkland. It will open your eyes to the wide variety of Taoist perspectives throughout Chinese history. It is the most comprehensive book I've come across concerning the history of Taosim.

The bottom line here is that there is no ONE way to do anything in Taoist Alchemical Qi Gong! Even these had competing traditions.

Having said that, in reality, there is NO possible way to not interact with the principles of Yin-Yang within ANY area of life! Qi Gong is not special in that Yin-Yang does not apply to it! Yin-Yang applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING in life and it CANNOT be avoided!

If you want to go with something that works, find someone that has had results from doing something, then you have a pretty good chance of repeating those results.

Reading a bunch of history does not give me any indication of what was results only here say of religion.

[Scott R. Brown]

If you want to go with something that works, find someone that has had results from doing something, then you have a pretty good chance of repeating those results.

Reading a bunch of history does not give me any indication of what was results only here say of religion.

Yeah, i think you missed the point!

You made an absolute statement concerning the wuji stance and yin-yang that was incorrect.

While your tradition may teach that, that does not make it correct, even if it works for you, you are following false principles thus no matter what benefits you experience, they are based upon a false foundation!

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott you know what they say about entering a contest of minds with an unarmed opponent, yeah.

The mind has ARMS?:eek:

[YiQuanOne]

Yeah, i think you missed the point!

You made an absolute statement concerning the wuji stance and yin-yang that was incorrect.

While your tradition may teach that, that does not make it correct, even if it works for you, you are following false principles thus no matter what benefits you experience, they are based upon a false foundation!


I don't know what you think is incorrect,

Wuji...........is before yin/yang

If you beleive something else, that is your believe. You are probably in religion books I am in MA side of it.

[SimonM]

The mind has ARMS?:eek:

Haven't you seen From Beyond?

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know what you think is incorrect,

Wuji...........is before yin/yang

If you beleive something else, that is your believe. You are probably in religion books I am in MA side of it.

It has nothing to do with religion, it is a principle of Tao.

Firstly, your comment was about the wuji stance! A stance belongs to the world of phenomena, once you enter the world of phenomena, Yin-Yang rules and you cannot have a stance without Yin-Yang!

Secondly, the idea that wuji preceeds Yin-Yang is incorrect. In essence there is no such thing as ONE! ONE cannot exist, because when ONE exists there is nothing to recognize it as ONE! In order for ONE to be recognized as ONE a mind must exist that separates ONE into a subject and an object. Once subject and object exist, Yin-Yang comes into being.

Since ONE is ONE there is no mind that recognizes it and ONE is non-existent!

Therefore, there has only ever been TWO from the beginning, and only TWO can conceive of there being a ONE. Without TWO then, there is NO ONE!

[Scott R. Brown]

Haven't you seen From Beyond?

Apparently it is beyond my reach!

Get it........ARMS.......reach! Get it! Its a joke! :D

[Hendrik]

I don't know what you think is incorrect,

Wuji...........is before yin/yang

If you beleive something else, that is your believe. You are probably in religion books I am in MA side of it.




Yup.


WuJi is before Yin/Yang.
So in the practice of Wuji posture, one is getting back to non polar.

One center one's Zhen Qi in to Dan Dien at that practice. So, there is not spliting Yin / Yang , that is the path to return to Dao.

[Scott R. Brown]

Yup.


WuJi is before Yin/Yang.
So in the practice of Wuji posture, one is getting back to non polar.

One center one's Zhen Qi in to Dan Dien at that practice. So, there is no Yin / Yang.

There is always Yin-Yang! Yin-Yang IS wuji! Wuji alone, separate from Yin-Yang, cannot exist!

If one truly entered wuji they would cease to exist and thus there would be no one available to recognize the experience. If you recognize any experience what-so-ever there is a subject and an object, which is the realm of Yin-Yang!

Therefore, Wuji as a concept exists, as a reality it is a rainbow robotic mind unicorn fantasy!

[Hendrik]

Secondly, the idea that wuji preceeds Yin-Yang is incorrect.


In essence there is no such thing as ONE! ONE cannot exist, because when ONE exists there is nothing to recognize it as ONE! In order for ONE to be recognized as ONE a mind must exist that separates ONE into a subject and an object. Once subject and object exist, Yin-Yang comes into being.

Since ONE is ONE there is no mind that recognizes it and ONE is non-existent!

Therefore, there has only ever been TWO from the beginning, and only TWO can conceive of there being a ONE. Without TWO then, there is NO ONE!




You love to argue for argue sake with your own theory which got nothing todo with Daoism hahaha.

[Hendrik]

There is always Yin-Yang! Yin-Yang IS wuji! Wuji alone, separate from Yin-Yang, cannot exist!

If one truly entered wuji they would cease to exist and thus there would be no one available to recognize the experience.

If you recognize any experience what-so-ever there is a subject and an object, which is the realm of Yin-Yang!

Therefore, Wuji as a concept exists, as a reality it is a rainbow robotic mind unicorn fantasy!


you are out of your mind, and keep arguing something based on your mind set instead of what is in Daoism.

WuJi is the "body" , Qi
TaiJI or Yin Yang is the " application" of Wu ji , Qi.

Wuji is just returning to be "body" that got nothing to do with cease to exist.



In martial art Neigong or Qigong, Wuji is returning to be source. sinking Qi to the Dan Dien is there reverse of application but accumulate the Zhen Qi to return to the source.


Your speculation shows you dont understand the "body" and " application" Qi. and thus there is no way that speculation can use for cultivate Qi. because that speculation is partial.

[YiQuanOne]

There is always Yin-Yang! Yin-Yang IS wuji! Wuji alone, separate from Yin-Yang, cannot exist!

If one truly entered wuji they would cease to exist and thus there would be no one available to recognize the experience. If you recognize any experience what-so-ever there is a subject and an object, which is the realm of Yin-Yang!

Therefore, Wuji as a concept exists, as a reality it is a rainbow robotic mind unicorn fantasy!

You can't learn things from a book without experence, it is empty learning.

You need to do it, then you will have some experence and not just theory that does not make sense.

[Scott R. Brown]

You love to argue for argue sake with your own theory which got nothing todo with Daoism hahaha.

No......you are trapped by a tradition, which turns your rainbow robotic unicorn fantasy mind. Because of your trap you cannot see the truth beyond your fantasy mind!

What i have said is simple truth. It should be apparent it is simple truth to anyone free from the trap of their rainbow robotic unicorn fantasy mind!

If you cannot understand simple truth you cannot understand Tao and you should not be confusing others with your rainbow robotic unicorn fantasies!

I know you mean well, your intentions are good, but you are sadly misinformed and so trapped by your rainbow robotic unicorn fantasy mind that you cannot help yourself!

You cannot even recognize how Tao keeps trying to present you with the truth of the matter!

I am sorry for you.....but never fear, i will not shirk my responsibility for getting you back on the right path! Tao will not allow me to give up on you! :)

[Scott R. Brown]

You can't learn things from a book without experence, it is empty learning.

You need to do it, then you will have some experence and not just theory that does not make sense.

What book are you talking about? Have you borrowed Hendrik's rainbow robotic unicorn fantasy mind.

You have been presented with a VERY simple truth of Tao and cannot recognize it. The foundation of your understanding is false. When the foundation is false, everything that springs from that false foundation is false.

Your experiences are created from your acceptance of false principles about Tao!

[Scott R. Brown]

you are out of your mind, and keep arguing something based on your mind set instead of what is in Daoism.

WuJi is the "body" , Qi
TaiJI or Yin Yang is the " application" of Wu ji , Qi.

Wuji is just returning to be "body" that got nothing to do with cease to exist.

In martial art Neigong or Qigong, Wuji is returning to be source. sinking Qi to the Dan Dien is there reverse of application but accumulate the Zhen Qi to return to the source.


Your speculation shows you dont understand the "body" and " application" Qi. and thus there is no way that speculation can use for cultivate Qi. because that speculation is partial.

There is NO ESCAPING Yin-Yang! Wuji stance will NOT lead one past or beyond Yin-Yang!

This is false teaching! Even if one believes they have experienced ONENESS, their experience is false. It is a misunderstanding according to a false teaching!

ALL EXPERIENCES are a product of Yin-Yang! ALL of them! There is NO wuji, it is a rainbow unicorn fantasy, no matter what your ancient writers or teachers or masters have taught. If they teach this they are not masters they are teaching a false truth and have missed true understanding!

[YiQuanOne]

What book are you talking about? Have you borrowed Hendrik's rainbow robotic unicorn fantasy mind.

You have been presented with a VERY simple truth of Tao and cannot recognize it. The foundation of your understanding is false. When the foundation is false, everything that springs from that false foundation is false.

Your experiences are created from your acceptance of false principles about Tao!


You seem to be stuck talking about religion, I am talking about martial arts.

Read the books by Yang, jing-ming or Manta Chia for a start or any other CMA book.

I think you are doing third eye or middle Diantien stuff, that is religion.

[Scott R. Brown]

You seem to be stuck talking about religion, I am talking about martial arts.

Read the books by Yang, jing-ming or Manta Chia for a start or any other CMA book.

I think you are doing third eye or middle Diantien stuff, that is religion.

This is NOT religion! Principles of Tao are not religion, they are actual principles that govern reality. It is NOT theory. They are like scientific principles that rule reality and everything you experience.

Aren't you the one who just a few posts back accused me of reading books and not having direct experience?

Now you are telling me to read books?

Reality does not need books to confirm it.

The fact is you stated that the wuji stance leads one beyond Yin-Yang, and Hendrik agreed with you!

This is false!

It is impossible to get beyond Yin-Yang. This truth can be denied, but the reality of it cannot be avoided!

[YiQuanOne]

This is NOT religion! Principles of Tao are not religion, they are actual principles that govern reality. It is NOT theory. They are like scientific principles that rule reality and everything you experience.

Aren't you the one who just a few posts back accused me of reading books and not having direct experience?

Now you are telling me to read books?

Reality does not need books to confirm it.

The fact is you stated that the wuji stance leads one beyond Yin-Yang, and Hendrik agreed with you!

This is false!

It is impossible to get beyond Yin-Yang. This truth can be denied, but the reality of it cannot be avoided!

Not beyond, before.
Those are the books you asked for and need to read so you know how to practice, you read books but can not confirm with practice or cultivation just your image in your mind is not real proof of anything, it is your imagination you believe.

We have proof by doing and results, you have no results and no proof, just denial of things you don't have as not excisting.

[Hendrik]

There is NO ESCAPING Yin-Yang! Wuji stance will NOT lead one past or beyond Yin-Yang!

This is false teaching! Even if one believes they have experienced ONENESS, their experience is false. It is a misunderstanding according to a false teaching!

ALL EXPERIENCES are a product of Yin-Yang! ALL of them! There is NO wuji, it is a rainbow unicorn fantasy, no matter what your ancient writers or teachers or masters have taught. If they teach this they are not masters they are teaching a false truth and have missed true understanding!

believe anything you like.

[rett]

Wuji...........is before yin/yang


Philosophically yes, but if you stand in Wuji you are still an embodied being standing, no? Putting the name Wuji on it is a nice metaphor and maybe can help you find the right mindset or feeling, but how can a body and mind actually exist in a state prior to differentiation? Answer, it can't.

[YiQuanOne]

Philosophically yes, but if you stand in Wuji you are still an embodied being standing, no? Putting the name Wuji on it is a nice metaphor and maybe can help you find the right mindset or feeling, but how can a body and mind actually exist in a state prior to differentiation? Answer, it can't.

Do it and find out!

It is hard work and will take a long time!

[SimonM]

Do it and find out!

It is hard work and will take a long time!

More exclusive experiential knowledge bull****, eh? The more things change... :rolleyes:

[rett]

Do it and find out!

It is hard work and will take a long time!

Actually I like that attitude:)

[Hendrik]

Philosophically yes, but if you stand in Wuji you are still an embodied being standing, no?

Putting the name Wuji on it is a nice metaphor and maybe can help you find the right mindset or feeling, but how can a body and mind actually exist in a state prior to differentiation?

Answer, it can't.


1, it is beyond philosophy, it is a reality.

2, you think it cant because you think. if you dont think it is already there.

3, Sinking Qi to Dan dian means return to original.

[Hendrik]

Do it and find out!

It is hard work and will take a long time!


It is hard work because it is using effort to undo habit.

it takes a long time because one needs to find out one's habit before one can drop it.

after that, it is just drop it and one is there.

[rett]

Is arguing on the internet a habit?

[Hendrik]

Is arguing on the internet a habit?

Wuji = Silence

when one cannot enter silence, one cant practice Qigong.


what to argue?

[rett]

Silence = measurable brain waves

Which requires a brain.

For a brain to exist you must have life, for life you must have environment, for environment you must have early life (to release oxygen for example), for early life you must have stable enough planet, for stable enough planet you must have lucky configuration of solar system, for that you need lots of unlucky solar systems to get the lucky one, for that you need galaxies, for that you need the laws of physics, for that you need ???

To experience Wuji as silence, you need the whole multitude of things. Experience of Wuji is an experience. It is not Wuji.

Or maybe not. I don't really know.

[YiQuanOne]

Silence = measurable brain waves

Which requires a brain.

For a brain to exist you must have life, for life you must have environment, for environment you must have early life (to release oxygen for example), for early life you must have stable enough planet, for stable enough planet you must have lucky configuration of solar system, for that you need lots of unlucky solar systems to get the lucky one, for that you need galaxies, for that you need the laws of physics, for that you need ???

To experience Wuji as silence, you need the whole multitude of things. Experience of Wuji is an experience. It is not Wuji.

Or maybe not. I don't really know.

Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss the moon!

[Hendrik]

Silence = measurable brain waves

Which requires a brain.

For a brain to exist you must have life, for life you must have environment, for environment you must have early life (to release oxygen for example), for early life you must have stable enough planet, for stable enough planet you must have lucky configuration of solar system, for that you need lots of unlucky solar systems to get the lucky one, for that you need galaxies, for that you need the laws of physics, for that you need ???

To experience Wuji as silence, you need the whole multitude of things. Experience of Wuji is an experience. It is not Wuji.

Or maybe not. I don't really know.



you have never been there or get even close to silence. so it really doesnt do any good to speculate.


one dont experience Wuji as silence, Wuji is silence. Wu ji is not an experience, Wuji is the platform which manifest every experience you have. Thus, Wu ji is there before any experience starts or Yin Yang started.

as an example,
Wuji is silence is the gap between music notes and the silence when all notes die off. there is no sound but something alive is there.

[rett]

you have never been there or get even close to silence. so it really doesnt do any good to speculate.

Where do I send the money?

[Hendrik]

Where do I send the money?

re read my post above.

[Scott R. Brown]

Not beyond, before.
Those are the books you asked for and need to read so you know how to practice, you read books but can not confirm with practice or cultivation just your image in your mind is not real proof of anything, it is your imagination you believe.

We have proof by doing and results, you have no results and no proof, just denial of things you don't have as not excisting.

You are playing with words, there is NO BEFORE Yin-Yang! As long as you have any kind of experience you are bound by the principles of Yin-Yang!

[Scott R. Brown]

Wuji = Silence

when one cannot enter silence, one cant practice Qigong.


what to argue?

Yeah! There is NO silence!

The silence you speak of is relative silence it is NOT silence as in no brain activity or action! If there was no brain activity or silence you could not have an experience to call silence!

[YiQuanOne]

You are playing with words, there is NO BEFORE Yin-Yang! As long as you have any kind of experience you are bound by the principles of Yin-Yang!


That is just your speculation, you have to do it to find out, reading books does not give you experence.

But I will have to warn you, with all those external exercises you do it will be a lot harder for you to pass through the double doors.

Cheers

[Scott R. Brown]

That is just your speculation, you have to do it to find out, reading books does not give you experence.

But I will have to warn you, with all those external exercises you do it will be a lot harder for you to pass through the double doors.

Cheers

You are presuming what my experiences are, which is your fatal flaw, that is the same thing Hendrik tried on me, and once again you are in error!

I know for a FACT there is no silence! You may perceive it as silence because it is RELATIVELY silent, that is, more silent than your common everyday mental chatter, but it is not TRUE silence. If it were TRUE silence there would be nothing to experience and you would not be able to recall the experience, which is the same thing as having no experience at all.

Experiences require a subject and an object. This condition is a duality. At best you have Yin-Yang which is the TRUE condition of ONENESS.

It is both one and many at the same time! True or Absolute Oneness is non-existence! Non-existence cannot be experienced or known.

[YiQuanOne]

You are presuming what my experiences are, which is your fatal flaw, that is the same thing Hendrik tried on me, and once again you are in error!

I know for a FACT there is no silence! You may perceive it as silence because it is RELATIVELY silent, that is, more silent than your common everyday mental chatter, but it is not TRUE silence. If it were TRUE silence there would be nothing to experience and you would not be able to recall the experience, which is the same thing as having no experience at all.

Experiences require a subject and an object. This condition is a duality. At best you have Yin-Yang which is the TRUE condition of ONENESS.

It is both one and many at the same time! True or Absolute Oneness is non-existence! Non-existence cannot be experienced or known.

Who cares what you call it, you still have to do it.

The Moon, the Moon, forget about the finger!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Who cares what you call it, you still have to do it.

The Moon, the Moon, forget about the finger!!

In a sense you are correct, labels are arbitrary, however, once you define your experience you confine it to word descriptions.

While it is difficult to describe an indescribable experience, the words we use to describe it limit the experience and the memory of it. Therefore, it does matter what words one uses to describe the experience.

As an example, I will presume you have had the experience, but because of the way you have described it in your own mind, you could not recognize the simple truth of my statements. So, while it is possible you have had the same experience I have, your memory or definition of it has limited it so much that you cannot recall or perceive the principles of the experience as they actually were.

As long as one believes or interprets their experience as "silent" and does not recognize it is "relative" silence, they misrepresent the experience to others. Once this occurs, you are accidentally contributing to the confusion of others.

If they have a similar experience and they perceive the truth of the matter, that is, it is a relative silence, but you as their expert guide describe it as Absolute Silence, they will tend to reinterpret their experience to conform it to what they THINK it SHOULD be according to your expert opinion, which is not accurate. They may then continue to search for an experience that is impossible to have, thinking they have missed the mark! They will then be stuck until they learn to trust their own direct experience absent the definitions provided by others.

Therefore it is important to be careful how we define the experience to others. Those who have had the experience, absent artificial constructs used to define it, would have easily recognized the "simple" truth of my description as closer to the reality of the experience!

[YiQuanOne]

In a sense you are correct, labels are arbitrary, however, once you define your experience you confine it to word descriptions.

While it is difficult to describe an indescribable experience, the words we use to describe it limit the experience and the memory of it. Therefore, it does matter what words one uses to describe the experience.

As an example, I will presume you have had the experience, but because of the way you have described it in your own mind, you could not recognize the simple truth of my statements. So, while it is possible you have had the same experience I have, your memory or definition of it has limited it so much that you cannot recall or perceive the principles of the experience as they actually were.

As long as one believes or interprets their experience as "silent" and does not recognize it is "relative" silence, they misrepresent the experience to others. Once this occurs, you are accidentally contributing to the confusion of others.

If they have a similar experience and they perceive the truth of the matter, that is, it is a relative silence, but you as their expert guide describe it as Absolute Silence, they will tend to reinterpret their experience to conform it to what they THINK it SHOULD be according to your expert opinion, which is not accurate. They may then continue to search for an experience that is impossible to have, thinking they have missed the mark! They will then be stuck until they learn to trust their own direct experience absent the definitions provided by others.

Therefore it is important to be careful how we define the experience to others. Those who have had the experience, absent artificial constructs used to define it, would have easily recognized the "simple" truth of my description as closer to the reality of the experience!

Are you a politician?

[Scott R. Brown]

Are you a politician?

LOL! Interesting question!

I prefer not to label myself, because labels carry with them baggage that leads to misunderstanding, since definitions are slightly different from individual to individual. So, politician to me might mean something slightly different than what politician means to you.

If I HAD to choose a definition, "philosopher" comes closest, except that even that word is inaccurate.

In essence it doesn't matter, I am ME! Just as you are YOU! :)

[SimonM]

I'm a fiction writer.

People pay me money to produce beautiful lies that speak to truth.

I suppose that's somewhat like being a philosopher. ;)

[rett]

re read my post above.

Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji. Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull". Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji. Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing. But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm a fiction writer.

People pay me money to produce beautiful lies that speak to truth.

I suppose that's somewhat like being a philosopher. ;)

I agree, on of the things that fiction writers do is explore the human condition, creating motivation for their characters, creating social structures/ societies for their characters. This means they look for insights into the problems and challenges of human experiences.

I have learned many philosophical principles from reading fiction.

As a matter of fact, one of my favorite aphorisms came from a Pers Anthony fantasy novel I read some 30 years ago, "The opinions of worthless people are worthless!"


Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji. Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull". Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji. Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing. But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.

Well said, you could just as easily call sitting on the toilet Wuji as anything else!;)

[Hendrik]

Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji.

Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull".

Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji.

Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing.

But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.


one returns to Wuji with Wu ji standing practice, thus it is called Wuji stance. the chinese is very precise on the naming.


as for all the feeling, the speculation.....etc i am ok with what you like to think.

[Miqi]

Don't mind my temporary interuption...

This video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG8fS4BBS4

Those schools which teach the kinds of things where people are just touched and fly away are beyond my understanding, as is most of the stuff people are talking about in this thread, and I'm quite happy to accept that my level is shameful, as the people here obviously know and do practise Chinese martial arts in ways that I can't comprehend.

For those who are interested in the more basic techniques practised in completely orthodox, mainstream schools who haven't yet achieved any real understanding, I present my video, as promised - although it is too shameful to represent 'yiquan' - it just shows basic practise of pushing skills.

For those interested in this more basic level of martial art, and orthodox yiquan theory, the technical points worth noting are:

1. In 'polite' push hands people usually don't release energy to a full degree hence, when they 'push' they often just 'brace' - i.e. step back with the back foot, take the weight, and give a little push. But for genuinely pushing people in the yiquan method with full power, allyour energy must issue in the direction you're pushing, and it must be instant - so, you can notice that I don't step back and brace. You can try it on a bag - it's not incredibly difficult, but it's harder to do at first than you think and requires practise. This allows you to just suddenly 'burst' forwards, without the half a second lost stepping back.

2. There is a slight but significant difference between pushing when your hands arealready on the target, and pushing when they aren't. Try putting your hands on the bag or opponent and releasing energy in the same way as when you hit from even a slight difference, and you will feel the difference. You will probably also notice the 'bracing' problem kick in here.

With a little practice, you can find both ways and naturalise them. Most techniques should be practised in two versions - one with hands already touching, one where they're not, otherwise, you'll only be able to do one properly.

3. The hardest thing to get is the correct relaxation. Try to relax your shoulders and arms more, and you should beging to feel more power.

4. Making it work in practise is significantly harder than making it work on a bag.

For those interested in the practical method of yiquan, and for those interested in stuff that seems to you to be much higher level, good luck - I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Scott R. Brown]

Nice vid miqi!

It is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a good use of biomechanics.

Your power will increase as your explosiveness and timing develop!:)

[rett]

That's a cool vid thanks.

Just by way of a question. What would happen if instead of a bag you did the exact same motions against a large tense inflated ball with very high pressure that is securely fixed?

And same scenario except at the instant you make contact the ball releases a little pressure (very slight), rotates slightly, and re-fills with pressure again as fast as an airbag in a car (but very small total difference in diameter).All this happens in maybe .25 second from you making contact and while you are committing to your push.

I think you would "fly away" or at least be very uprooted.

I don't know if this contraption would be really possible to build, but I would like to be able to function like such a ball. Anyway that's my picture of how the "flying away" should work... not saying I'm good at it or anything.

[Scott R. Brown]

That's a cool vid thanks.

Just by way of a question. What would happen if instead of a bag you did the exact same motions against a large tense inflated ball with very high pressure that is securely fixed?

And same scenario except at the instant you make contact the ball releases a little pressure (very slight), rotates slightly, and re-fills with pressure again as fast as an airbag in a car (but very small total difference in diameter).All this happens in maybe .25 second from you making contact and while you are committing to your push.

I think you would "fly away" or at least be very uprooted.

I don't know if this contraption would be really possible to build, but I would like to be able to function like such a ball. Anyway that's my picture of how the "flying away" should work... not saying I'm good at it or anything.

This very same, or similar principle may be used with people!

It takes practice and timing and may be used against strikes and kicks. If you make a very short and sharp movement towards the strike or kick just the instant before it contacts you, you break the opponents timing and will send them backwards, with practice. (edit: Actually, it is just as contact is made, but just prior to full extension of the strike or kick, there is a little variation involved, you have maybe 1-3 inches of play depending upon the opponent and how they strike.)

Practice with your partner pushing your shoulder. It must be from a specific distance where contact is made at or near full extension. Then, just before contact, sharply move your shoulder "into" the push/strike. It doesn't need to be an exaggerated movement, although you may want to exaggerate it at the beginning while you are learning the move. But as you improve all it takes is a slight abrupt movement, at the right time, and you will send your opponent backwards.

Kicks are a little bit easier to send someone backwards.

BTW, these only work on straight punches and kicks not the circular ones, but if you abruptly move yourself into a circular punch you may still fracture your opponents hand or wrist because it throws his timing off.

[Hendrik]

Miqi;1115783

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG8fS4BBS4

Those schools which teach the kinds of things where people are just touched and fly away are beyond my understanding, as is most of the stuff people are talking about in this thread, and I'm quite happy to accept that my level is shameful, as the people here obviously know and do practise Chinese martial arts in ways that I can't comprehend.

For those who are interested in the more basic techniques practised in completely orthodox, mainstream schools who haven't yet achieved any real understanding, I present my video, as promised - although it is too shameful to represent 'yiquan' - it just shows basic practise of pushing skills.


The video is great.

it clearly shows a common Wushu, Shao lin, karate,,, mmA, Boxer type of power/momentum generation.

That is not Yiquan type of power/momentum generation or Fa li.


There is nothing to do with Shameful it only has to do with is it or is it not Yiquan Fa li type.







For those interested in this more basic level of martial art, and orthodox yiquan theory, the technical points worth noting are:

1. In 'polite' push hands people usually don't release energy to a full degree hence, when they 'push' they often just 'brace' - i.e. step back with the back foot, take the weight, and give a little push. But for genuinely pushing people in the yiquan method with full power, allyour energy must issue in the direction you're pushing, and it must be instant - so, you can notice that I don't step back and brace. You can try it on a bag - it's not incredibly difficult, but it's harder to do at first than you think and requires practise. This allows you to just suddenly 'burst' forwards, without the half a second lost stepping back.

2. There is a slight but significant difference between pushing when your hands arealready on the target, and pushing when they aren't. Try putting your hands on the bag or opponent and releasing energy in the same way as when you hit from even a slight difference, and you will feel the difference. You will probably also notice the 'bracing' problem kick in here.

With a little practice, you can find both ways and naturalise them. Most techniques should be practised in two versions - one with hands already touching, one where they're not, otherwise, you'll only be able to do one properly.

3. The hardest thing to get is the correct relaxation. Try to relax your shoulders and arms more, and you should beging to feel more power.

4. Making it work in practise is significantly harder than making it work on a bag.

For those interested in the practical method of yiquan, and for those interested in stuff that seems to you to be much higher level, good luck - I hope you find what you're looking for.



I believe the above come with a good heart.
however, it is actually will not get to the Yiquan type of Kung fu due to the core of the momentum generation practice is not Yiquan type; and thus , this will not get to the intermediate level of Yiquan but default into a Wushu, Shao Lin, Hung Gar mma type of art.


The issue here is, as alots of TCMA, one train one way and practice in another way. and thus, one repeat the curriculum of a style but never develop the kung fu of the style. and due to that, what one practice evolve into something else.

[Hendrik]

This very same, or similar principle may be used with people!

It takes practice and timing and may be used against strikes and kicks. If you make a very short and sharp movement towards the strike or kick just the instant before it contacts you, you break the opponents timing and will send them backwards, with practice. (edit: Actually, it is just as contact is made, but just prior to full extension of the strike or kick, there is a little variation involved, you have maybe 1-3 inches of play depending upon the opponent and how they strike.)

Practice with your partner pushing your shoulder. It must be from a specific distance where contact is made at or near full extension. Then, just before contact, sharply move your shoulder "into" the push/strike. It doesn't need to be an exaggerated movement, although you may want to exaggerate it at the beginning while you are learning the move. But as you improve all it takes is a slight abrupt movement, at the right time, and you will send your opponent backwards.

Kicks are a little bit easier to send someone backwards.

BTW, these only work on straight punches and kicks not the circular ones, but if you abruptly move yourself into a circular punch you may still fracture your opponents hand or wrist because it throws his timing off.



These above is valid because it is using a so called "exteral" art momentum / power generation.

In the Internal art momentum/ power generation the result will not be this way.

[Scott R. Brown]

These above is valid because it is using a so called "exteral" art momentum / power generation.

In the Internal art momentum/ power generation the result will not be this way.

That is because the internal way of doing it does not work without the external biomechanics!

[Hendrik]

That is because the internal way of doing it does not work without the external biomechanics!



internal way has a different type of biomechanics.

[Scott R. Brown]

internal way has a different type of biomechanics.

THAT I agree with! It is much more subtle in most cases. But the power generation is still physcial, just more subtly applied and refined.

[Hendrik]

THAT I agree with! It is much more subtle in most cases. But the power generation is still physcial, just more subtly applied and refined.


There is no subtle it is a different type of engine.

it got nothing to do with physicial and non physical... without my body I cant even type here, without Qi cultivation my momentum generation is not as good, without my samadhi training my emotion is restless. Those are reality.

internal means everything and holistic, external means partial and physical ONLY dominan

[PHILBERT]

I am closing this thread and I want this argument to stop on here. When closing, I have a few personal opinions I want to put in.

A wise man once said "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

I have seen videos of people doing some impressive stuff with their bodies, like a man pulling a truck with his junk (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-jt001.html). However, regardless of my opinion on whether or not I believe in Qi, I will not get on here and argue with someone who does or does not believe in it.

Certain people on here remind me of a specific kind of atheist. The kind who goes out, finds someone who is Christian, then argues with them over their belief. There are certain topics that no matter how much arguing you do, chances are you won't sway a person's opinion. At all. Ever.

1.) A higher power.
2.) Politics.

Stop this petty arguing, it gets everyone no where. Spend that time doing something more productive. Spend time with your family. Exercise. Train. This gets you no where.