Supreme Guard

[RenDaHai]

I have a serious question;

What do each of you guys find is the best method of blocking/deflecting/guarding WITHOUT counter attack?

We tend to spend such a lot of time on combos of super powerful attacks, on the ground and pound, on all these strikes.... When would you EVER actually do this to someone? I mean in the normal scope of life we need self defense, but when will you ever have to BATTER another human being?

In my experience of violence there are a great many people who are simply NOT capable of it. They can spend a lot of time training striking but they will never be able to actually bring themselves to use it on someone. That means they will never be great fighters. But it doesn't mean that they can't learn to defend themselves well.

There are different types of people. And for those who lack the ability to be violent many techniques are not so useful. What use is Sanda if you can't bring yourself to hit someone? Its not a weakness, its a testament to our society that some people have crushed their violent natures. But they still need martial arts.

You can't deny these people exist, what do you teach them? What kind of guard?

SO, blocking without counter attack (at most Qinna, throws and pushes and slaps). What do you have? Someone is trying to batter you, you just want to block? I want blocks that genuinely work against someone who is really trying to hit you in fast combination.

[YouKnowWho]

What do each of you guys find is the best method of blocking/deflecting/guarding WITHOUT counter attack?
Hold both hands and make it into a big fist and hide your head behind it.

[Drake]

Why on earth would you go turtle?

[JamesC]

If there was a perfect guard everyone would use it.

For me, a basic four point cover has always worked the best for me. Elbows can punish someone punching low or kicking a little high. If they hook, you can simply grab the back of your head as in muay thai.

The fact of the matter is you WILL get hit in a fight. The greatest fighters in the world all get hit repeatedly in their fights and they train specifically not to.

Add head movement and footwork and you've got a pretty workable defense. Add some clinch work if you want for a little control and work on close-range distance creators like the teep if you're talking about simply escaping.

[SimonM]

As somebody who has always had more of a grappling focus I like to tangle up the arms and go for the clinch.

[Ray Pina]

Fence post position.... elbows down and pinched inwards comfortably, both hands up around the nose area. This guards direct strikes but allows opportunity to counter strike or come in to close, clinch, etc. if a rounded attack comes..... of course this is very general. Elbows have to be alive for blocking/deflecting/wedging.

The person you describe though is a victim waiting to happen. Not that they can't be trained to think differently, but a person in that state of mind is a victim.

[Ray Pina]

Why on earth would you go turtle?



I hate turtle. I hate when BJJ guys hang there with no respect for how vulnerable to strikes they are.... with that said, there is no escaping some tough positions, particularly a really tight side control, without transitioning to turtle briefly. Don't hang there, but sometimes you have to transition there.

[SimonM]

The person you describe though is a victim waiting to happen. Not that they can't be trained to think differently, but a person in that state of mind is a victim.

Agreed - It's one thing to dislike violence or to not want to inflict unnecessary harm. You should still be able to hit back if somebody brings violence to you.

[Ray Pina]

A great short book, Equal or Greater Force by special op Kit Cessna addresses this mindset. Goes into legal implications as well.

[TenTigers]

unless you are being beaten on by your wife or a child, standing there and simply covering is useless. Blocking means you are a step behind your opponent's attacks and are on the way to losing.
In an adult fighting scenario, GnP assures that your attacker will not renew his attack against you.
As brutal as it may sound, it may be the only alternative.

"If you show mercy to your enemy, you are being cruel to yourself."

[Yum Cha]

Akido....

But I'd train the mindset if it was my student.

[Ray Pina]

"If you show mercy to your enemy, you are being cruel to yourself."

Moving down here to Puerto Rico really woke me up as to violence. Its at such a state here, I can not get into physical conflict with anyone.... I beat up one guy, his crazy cousin will come shoot me.

Its to the point where if something should happen you either have to a) take them out to the point they can't get up (to get a gun or knife) and hope that's the end of it and keep a constant eye out or b) Kill them and deal with the law and then still have to keep a constant eye out.

I work, surf, train, snorkel, hike... try to keep away from the loud, drinking, unbalanced people. Try to keep away from crowds in general.

[brothernumber9]

Ernie Moore Jr. Squirrel defense posture. See ORA forum and the squirrel kung fu thread. His "style" more or less spawned off an idea of taking attack without attacking back.

[ginosifu]

Mr. Myagi(Form Karate Kid)said:
"No Be Dere"

If you do not wish to fight then don't be there.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

"If you show mercy to your enemy, you are being cruel to yourself."

If you don't want to get hit by your opponent, start to hit him.

[David Jamieson]

Definitely not going to hot spots for fighting will keep you out of fights.

Other ways to stay out of fights is to not be a drunken ass hole, not be an over emotional poser, not be an ignorant dick to someone else's mate etc etc.

Besides that, there are plenty of ways to restrain someone from striking you and to also allay any chance of them seriously injuring themselves.

If you are in your 20's, like to club, are looking for love or sex quite often, then chances are, you might wind up in a fight. C'est La Vie.

[SPJ]

stepping methods and body facing/position.

you may use your hands to guard, not necessarily block or slap

but your steps and distancing are more important

you may step back or step to side

you may also do low kick or raise knee to guard or distancing.

thinking only about the hand movements may not be enough.

---

[SPJ]

If you are in your 20's, like to club, are looking for love or sex quite often, then chances are, you might wind up in a fight. C'est La Vie.

i used to go clubbing a lot.

just enjoyed the music and watching many girls all dressed nicely.

ususally clubs start at 11:00 Pm

I am an early riser.

so I never stayed passed 12:00 am.

---

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you find yourself in a fight, there is really no way that you are going to simply defend yourself without doing something offensively. No matter how good you are or how bad he is, he is still going to end up hitting you. And if he does connect it can quickly turn into something nasty. If you don't want to inflict harm on someone, learn how to do a take down and possibly a submission type hold that can restrict his ability to further attack you. I used to have a little move that was quick and effective. On many occasions I was able to use it without anyone getting hurt and it took all the fight out of the guy.
In most cases the guy would simply try to sucker punch me with his right fist and I would pary it off to my right, grab his arm and pull. He would immediately pull back and I would shove him without letting go of his arm and he would go off balance. Then I simply jerked him to the side, spinning him around with his back almost to me, then I stepped into the back of his knee and rode him all the way down to the floor with weight on the back of the knee. It appeared painful. Then I would jerk the arm up over his head and bend it down toward his back with the elbow straight up, then rolled the wrist back so the palm tries to touch the wrist. Then I would sort of lift up. This will completely shut down the biggest and strongest fellow in the place. If you practice this it is easy and fast, and it can not be countered fast enough unless it is the guy you trained it with. You remain on your feet and have him sort of where you can keep him between you and his buddies. If it comes down to it, you can strike his nose or throat, or even step off and kick into his spine. Any of these will end his fight.
Find you someone that teaches real Jiujitsu. Not the BJJ stuff, but the real Jap stuff. Add that to any other fighting system you have and you are bullet proof.

[David Jamieson]

If you find yourself in a fight, there is really no way that you are going to simply defend yourself without doing something offensively. You could run? You could show your chunk to the guy who's trying to get in a mix up? :p

And yes you can simply defend yourself and then run. :)





No matter how good you are or how bad he is, he is still going to end up hitting you. Can't hit what's not there. Don't engage.



And if he does connect it can quickly turn into something nasty. If you don't want to inflict harm on someone, learn how to do a take down and possibly a submission type hold that can restrict his ability to further attack you.
Guess work. Who says he won't own you when you try to grapple him?



I used to have a little move that was quick and effective. On many occasions I was able to use it without anyone getting hurt and it took all the fight out of the guy.
In most cases the guy would simply try to sucker punch me with his right fist and I would pary it off to my right, grab his arm and pull. He would immediately pull back and I would shove him without letting go of his arm and he would go off balance. Then I simply jerked him to the side, spinning him around with his back almost to me, then I stepped into the back of his knee and rode him all the way down to the floor with weight on the back of the knee. It appeared painful. Then I would jerk the arm up over his head and bend it down toward his back with the elbow straight up, then rolled the wrist back so the palm tries to touch the wrist. Then I would sort of lift up. This will completely shut down the biggest and strongest fellow in the place.
You've never actually been in a real fight have you? :p



If you practice this it is easy and fast, and it can not be countered fast enough unless it is the guy you trained it with. Train right no can defend? really? lol


You remain on your feet and have him sort of where you can keep him between you and his buddies. If it comes down to it, you can strike his nose or throat, or even step off and kick into his spine. Any of these will end his fight.
Find you someone that teaches real Jiujitsu. Not the BJJ stuff, but the real Jap stuff. Add that to any other fighting system you have and you are bullet proof. Life ain't a video game, fights, especially street fights have too many variables to even try and suppose one of them.

Better to learn simpler things, better to stay away from crap places, better to avoid confrontation to begin with. Especially in the case where you actually try to fight like you're advocating here.

[SPJ]

move away is better than any hand guard

if you could

that is.

:D

[Robinhood]

If you keep them unbalanced , they will have a hard time being offensive.

[PalmStriker]

You can Reggae around their moves , depending on their size and aggressive behavior how relaxed you should be, internal or external. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduPvsPJRMo

[PalmStriker]

move away is better than any hand guard

if you could

that is.

:D
Move out of State is best. :)

[YouKnowWho]

move away is better than any hand guard

if you could

that is.

:D

I have seen US missiles flew into Irag. I haven't seen any US missiles flew away from Iraq. Moving away can't make your opponent to drop dead.

[David Jamieson]

I have a serious question;

What do each of you guys find is the best method of blocking/deflecting/guarding WITHOUT counter attack?

We tend to spend such a lot of time on combos of super powerful attacks, on the ground and pound, on all these strikes.... When would you EVER actually do this to someone? I mean in the normal scope of life we need self defense, but when will you ever have to BATTER another human being?

In my experience of violence there are a great many people who are simply NOT capable of it. They can spend a lot of time training striking but they will never be able to actually bring themselves to use it on someone. That means they will never be great fighters. But it doesn't mean that they can't learn to defend themselves well.

There are different types of people. And for those who lack the ability to be violent many techniques are not so useful. What use is Sanda if you can't bring yourself to hit someone? Its not a weakness, its a testament to our society that some people have crushed their violent natures. But they still need martial arts.

You can't deny these people exist, what do you teach them? What kind of guard?

SO, blocking without counter attack (at most Qinna, throws and pushes and slaps). What do you have? Someone is trying to batter you, you just want to block? I want blocks that genuinely work against someone who is really trying to hit you in fast combination.

I don't teach them anything. If they refuse to defend themselves they don't belong in martial arts. I would teach a class on situational awareness, avoidance and how to shout really loud to bring help.

I don't teach any defense to people who cannot use it. It is a waste of time all round.

[MasterKiller]

Hold both hands and make it into a big fist and hide your head behind it.

THIS!!

If you don't want to get wet when it's raining, it's more efficient to use an umbrella than to chase every raindrop with windshield wipers.

[David Jamieson]

THIS!!

If you don't want to get wet when it's raining, it's more efficient to use an umbrella than to chase every raindrop with windshield wipers.

yeah except what do you do to a guy who is impeding his own vision with his guard position like that?

Oh yeah, you punch him in the face as hard as you can. If it hits his guard, he punches himself, then you drive him in the face again. :p

Ren - look at Rodney King's Crazy Monkey defense material. It's some of the better advice on how to keep your guard up and minimize incoming whilst positioning yourself. http://www.crazymonkeydefense.com/

It's good stuff.

[RenDaHai]

Ren - look at Rodney King's Crazy Monkey defense material. It's some of the better advice on how to keep your guard up and minimize incoming whilst positioning yourself. http://www.crazymonkeydefense.com/

It's good stuff.

I'll have a look, but this is an old post resurrected.

At the time I was just wondering if anyone had any interesting or unconventional guard ideas. More for the situation of 100% defence, a guard that does not rely on counter attack. In this situation I find a Shield is generally more effective than a parry or a deflection.

[MasterKiller]

In this situation I find a Shield is generally more effective than a parry or a deflection. Shielding is always the most efficient, which was my point earlier. Parrying/defelcting has it's place, but I usually prefer to use them to open the gate to enter the clinch. For pure punch defense, I almost always defer to a shielding technique.

[YouKnowWho]

More for the situation of 100% defence, a guard that does not rely on counter attack.
Just to deflect or block your opponent's punches is not good enough. You have to disable his punching ability.

Method 1:

- Left comb hair to block his right punch,
- right comb hair to block his left punch (This is called "分手Fen Shou - separate hands"),
- left arm wrap his right arm,
- right arm lock his head (or over hook his left shoulder).

Method 2:

- Left hand hold on his right wrist.
- Right hand hold on his left wrist.
- Tuck his left arm under his own right arm.
- Free your right arm to ...

The grappling game will start right after that.

[MasterKiller]

Just to deflect or block your opponent's punches is not good enough. You have to disable his punching ability.

Method 2:

- Left hand grap on your opponent's right wrist.
- Right hand grap on his left wrist.
- Tuck his left arm under his own right arm.

The grappling game will start right after that.
Grabbing a puncher's wrists isn't smart, imo. Handfighting and grabbing has it's place once the clinch is established, but I just don't like the idea of reaching out to secure a free-moving hand.

[YouKnowWho]

Grabbing a puncher's wrists isn't smart, imo. Handfighting and grabbing has it's place once the clinch is established, but I just don't like the idea of reaching out to secure a free-moving hand.
I didn't say to grab your opponent's punching arm. If your opponent punches at you, you should use "分手(Fen Shou) - separate hands" to wrap his arm instead.

You can set up your opponent in such a way that he will give you his arm. Just punch him and force him to block your punch. If you throw jab, cross, hook, hook combo, you will have at least one of your punch to be able to contact with his arm. The clinch will start right there.

[MasterKiller]

I have never said to grab your opponent's punch arm.

You can set up in such a way that your opponent will give you his arm. Just punch him and force him to block your punch. If you throw jab, cross, hook, hook combo, you will have at least one of your punch to be able to contact with your opponent's arm. The clinch will start right there.

Oh, ok. You are using strikes to set up grabbing. I'm still not sure about that, but it makes more sense.

[RenDaHai]

Shielding is always the most efficient, which was my point earlier. Parrying/defelcting has it's place, but I usually prefer to use them to open the gate to enter the clinch. For pure punch defense, I almost always defer to a shielding technique.

I concur.

I usually classify it by sensation;

When your hands are separated and you are relying on your eyes to perceve your opponents attack, then you use the shields. When the hands have become entangled as tends to happen after an exchange, then more interesting 'shou-fa' can come into play and you can rely on the touch sensitivity to guide your hands. Theres a pithy Chinese maxim that explains the domain of the sight and the domain of touch and the techniques to be used respectively but I have forgotten it. Something about a Tiger....