Chen style Taijiquan

[wongfeilung809]

i was wondering if anyone practices chen style in san antonio or austin, or knows of any teachers in the area.
simpleangles

[azwingchun]

I am going to be taking a Chen style Tai Chi class, and am curiouse what to expect. What is the differences between this style and the other Tai Chi styles. By the way I will also be doing Yang style with the TCM class I am starting along with the Chen style, any info on this will also be helpful. Thanks. :D

[Nexus]

What to expect...

I can give you an idea but I highly suggest to enter the classes with a completely empty mind, willing to learn what it is your teacher is teaching without any comparison to the expecations of what you might learn.

You will probably be learning some fluid, open body movements, some fast, some slow, involving a fair bit of flexibility.

Chen style takes many years to master, as Yang Lu'chan spent 18 years learning Chen style and 2 years learning the principles of the Yang style (as some stories tell it).

If your teacher is well taught, and has spent time doing Chen style, you are fortunate and can really gain a lot from doing it. I can't say that its a great idea though to learn Chen and Yang all the time, but perhaps if you are gifted and making the dillineation between the two you will be fine.

I have heard it said that after someone learns Chen style and wishes to learn Yang style they must forget Chen style first.

Don't take any of this too literally though, and talk to your teacher as that is where you will get the best advice.

- Nexus

[origenx]

So who is more highly-regarded then - Chen masters or Yang masters? Altho Chen is OG, the Yang lineage seems to have had some huge names...

[Sum Guye]

who did Yang LuChan learn the Yang principles from?

[Nexus]

Let me say that differently. What I meant by saying that, the Chen style was specifically for neutralizing attacks. Yang lu'chan was not a member of the Chen family and was not taught the entire system of taijiquan, although he had spent 18 years learning. He had learnt how to neutralize to a very high level, but did not have the solid aspects presented in 'todays' Yang style.

These only took him to two years to learn, after which he left Chen village to once again stake his claim (literally) that taiji was the Grand Ultimate Fist.

So now the yang postures, are like a mountain, and one might run into such and feel as if they hit a brick wall. And chen as if you are fighting thin air with every attack you attempt.

Once again, my explanations due to little justice to experiencing this all yourself, and I still have as much if not more to learn as I did when I began!

- Nexus

[dedalus]

I would disagree with your charcterisation of the Yang style Nexus, primarilly because Yang can be empty and Chen can be hard... it depends on your level of mastery, I think. It was an interesting view, however, and I do agree with your point about Yang and Chen being difficult to learn together.

While originex is correct that there are many big names in Yang style, I would say (somewhat paradoxically) that you're more likely to find a good Chen teacher than a good Yang teacher. The Chen lineage is still closely guarded (for better or worse) and almost all practitioners seem to be very experienced. The Yang style suffers from a glut of new age corruptions.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“a glut of new age corruptions.�

Please what dose this mean?

Why and how would you learn both at the same time?

As to what is better. If first is better or more true wouldn’t it be better to learn the style that was introduced to the chen family?

I was under the impression that the chens learned of the taiji idea from someone and modified their org style to those ideas.

bamboo leaf

[azwingchun]

The only reason I will be studying both is for the fact that Chen was the class I chose, but I am learning TCM from him and Yang style is taught as part of this course. But again, thanks for all the info. ;)

[dedalus]

Bamboo Leaf, I just meant that the Yang style has been watered-down over the years (beginning with Yang Cheng-Fu and progressing to the community centre teacher on the corner) so that a lot of the orignal combat utility has been lost. I want to learn taiji to fight like a demon more than I want to learn how to use it to control stress or "exercise gently". I certainly don't want to learn the crap they perform in Wushu. I want the health *and* combat benefits.

Azwingchun, I reckon that if you're learning Yang taiji as part of your course it is unlikely to be the really good stuff. It takes decades to learn that, and so they're probably teaching you one of the standardised Yang wushu forms (like the Yang 24 or 48 or something else silly like that). Don't think that's all there is to Yang taiji, but you'll get better from a Chen instructor at this stage.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Dedalus,

Interesting statement. So how do you know this is so? Is something that you read, something that some one said or something that you experienced? Perhaps Yangs idea of TC manifested itself in different way.

Where I play TC I can see, met with and practice with people from many different TC styles. The people I talk with tend to talk of people who got it, regardless of TC style.

TC is like water, the style like a glass. some may have an empty glass. some may have the water in a simple clay cup.

bamboo leaf

[azwingchun]

I hope I didn't miss lead you on what kind of class I am taking, this isn't at a college and isn't like taking a semester class. I am referring to several years of study with this person, this class goes from Tai Chi to herbology. Though personally I don't know what his experience with Yang style are, I do know he has been studying Tai Chi for many years. If I am not mistaken he began his martial arts training as a young child. ;)

[Nexus]

dedalus, taijiquan is the graduate school of the taoist arts. Much of us are in such a hurry to be a 'demon fighter' as you call it, that we skip over the elementary/highschool stuff, just so we can get to the stuff that we think looks great on the surface. This works ok at first, and can even prove to be combat effective, but will never produce a great martial artist, only a mediocre one as there is a weak foundation.

If you are with a teacher whom emphasizes the martial aspects of Taiji as well as health/meditative then you are fortunate and should stay with that teacher.

In response to whomever it was talking about Yang being both hard and soft at a level of mastery, to this I would agree although I do not agree from personal experience, only from what I have been told/shown. I have a long ways to go in my studies, but it is a daily process.

Thanks for the comments everyone, good thread so far, lets keep it that way! I am learning from it as well.

- Nexus

[dedalus]

Yeah, fair enough guys. I certainly agree that it takes longer to learn how to fight with taiji than most other arts, and that you need to have solid foundations. I'm just adding that the teacher has to know how to turn the martial art into a fighting art, and that is a rarer quality than knowing the sequence of the forms (*if* they even know that... there are commercial schools out there that don't know the small frame, have no pauchui at all and know no weaponry besides the standardised taiji jian).

There are loads of instrucotrs out there who run big schools that have no depth, only beginners don't realise it until they've already wasted their time... well, so it goes for the most part down here. More experienced taiji artists can see it at a glance, and certainly feel it if they touch. The difference between the Old Yang Style (from Yang Lu'Chan through Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao-Hou) and the recently standarised stuff is enormous. I don't mean for any of this to sound arrogant or to offend followers of the new syllabus - William C.C. Chen, for instance, is clearly an exceptional practitioner in the Cheng-Fu lineage, and I'm sure there are many others - I'm just trying to relay my own experience, which has been one of disappointment before finding a good teacher.

[patriot]

1. There are more recognized names in Yang because it is more popular. Chen style didn't really spread to N.America until a few years back and there are still only a very limited number of Chen schools.

2. It is more important to choose a good instructor than to choose a particular style. Most Yang schools are very watered down and Tai Chi is taught as a new-age exercise rather than a martial arts.

[Nexus]

Right, William C.C. Chen, Master Jou Hwu, T.T. Liang to name just a few.

Keep in mind that CMC's 42? movement form that he taught for the last 20 years of his life is in many cases the only form that many of his students know/practice/use and is often what you see in tournaments.

The differences between YCF and YLC long form exist, but when turned into application, if done properly, both can yield good or bad practitioners.

This is why as patriot said it is much more important who you choose as a teacher than what style you choose to learn.

- Nexus

[Kumkuat]

Actually, I know more Chen style masters than yang ones. The only Yang style master I heard of is Yan Zhen Duo (the standard bearer). Then again, I am a chen style player so maybe that's why.

[azwingchun]

I guess what I was really wanting to know was, does the actual fighting applications vary that much from Tai Chi style to style? Or is it more how each style is taught, or are they similar just with different forms and speed of forms?

By the way thanks for all the info you all have given. ;)

[Nexus]

You just have to experience each style. Explaining it gives too much of a mental picture that is not very accurate to what is actually going on. What you would gain from 5 lessons in Chen style and Yang style would be much more personal understanding than I could explain in 5 pages.

- Nexus

[dubj]

I live in phoenix and am interested in knowing what chen style teachers are here? Do you happen to know the lineage?

[azwingchun]

His name is Dr. Peter Chow, lineage I really don't know, I really haven't got into that with him. And actually I don't think that he really advertises under martial arts or anything (at least I don't think so anyway). He is somewhat my family doctor (TCM). If you would like info I will give you his name and phone number. ;)

By the way, what area of Chandler do you live?

[dubj]

I live right off of Ray and Rural road. I'm pretty sure I have seen a picture of Dr. Chow on the emptyflower website. Right now I don't have a car so my training options are pretty limited, but I have found a good teacher named Philip Selmon that I study kun tao with at Mesa Community College. I do like chen tai chi very much and am interested in what lineages are around. Are you studying privately or does he have a school?

[azwingchun]

He doesn't have an actual school, it is in the back of his office. I did my first class privately, as far as the rest, I don't know. From my understanding there are a few in the Sunday's class, though it can't be many, since there isn't a lot of room. I guess I'll find out tomorrow. ;)

[azwingchun]

By the way that is Dr. Chow on the website you are speaking about.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I am a Chen stylist and in my experience I have seen Yang stylist come to my Master's school to learn Chen. They had a difficult time in the beginning and had to drop the Yang so as not to be confused. I would not recommend trying to learn both styles. Have a good day.

[azwingchun]

Thanks for your input, though I was mistaken, I will be learning Yang then Chen. They will not be done completely at the same time. ;)

[Tak]

What do you think about Sifu Lawrence's implication (if not outright statement) that Chen isn't a "real" style of Taiji?

http://www.xianghua.com/articles/taijiquan.asp
http://www.xianghua.com/questions/questions008.asp

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

There are quiet a few people that reject Chen as "real" Taiji.
;)

OTOH, he himself admits (http://www.xianghua.com/features/taijiquan.asp) to only teaching the PRC forms and not the traditional family styes.


We teach Yang–style Taijiquan, as standardized by the Chinese National Sports Committee.


One reason for this I think is due to the meeting of a few Masters that decided to call their art "Internal Arts" and because there were no Chen stylists there.

In the end I think it is feeble attempt to make their style and what they do look better by saying "theirs is not the true xyz".
:rolleyes:

[bamboo_ leaf]

Seems like anyone wanting others to believe in what they do first must discredit something. Find a teacher and way that you can agree with and practice hard, the rest will take care of itself.

[count]

Chen style is too hard for the masses. Yang Chen Fu did a great thing making tai chi soft so that old people, children, and anyone with limited abilities could easily play along. He did more than Bruce (as that site mentioned) in terms of popularizing the style. But in my opinion, it should be called something else. I can feel it is tai chi but you can not see all the principles by observation. At least Chen style clearly shows all the principles to an observer. As to whether or not it can be applied martially, that's up to the teachers experience. But I have never met anyone that only learned Yang style and did not practice other martial arts. In my opinion, this teacher is way off base with his statements.

[Brad]

There are quiet a few people that reject Chen as "real" Taiji.


OTOH, he himself admits to only teaching the PRC forms and not the traditional family styes.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We teach Yang–style Taijiquan, as standardized by the Chinese National Sports Committee.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



One reason for this I think is due to the meeting of a few Masters that decided to call their art "Internal Arts" and because there were no Chen stylists there.

In the end I think it is feeble attempt to make their style and what they do look better by saying "theirs is not the true xyz".
1.His form has Chen style very obviously incorperated into it.
2.None of the forms he says he emphasises in his Yang style curriculum is Yang style, or was intended to be Yang style.

So you can't really take what this guy says in regards to labeling styles seriously. If he doesn't know the make up of his own forms, how would he know what something he doesn't practice is or isn't?

[Fu-Pow]

Taijiquan is the creation of Yang Luchan (1799–1872) who learned something at Chen village and then from it created Taijiquan. Yang Luchan had three sons, two of whom lived to be adults. Both were expert at Taijiquan. One of these sons himself had three sons, one being Yang Chengfu (1883–1936). It was Yang Chengfu who is responsible for the transmission and popularity of Taijiquan. Taijiquan is the martial system of the Yang family. From the Yang-family Taijiquan developed— directly and indirectly— the other three styles of Taijiquan: Wu, Wu (Hao), and Sun. The martial art of Chen village is a form of Shaolin quanfa.


Chen Taiji is a form of Shaolin Quanfa?

Where is he getting this from?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Chen Taiji is a form of Shaolin Quanfa?

Where is he getting this from?

I think he is refering to some Shaolin Forms that were practiced at the Chen Village among other Arts.
Those, AFAIK, were Sets of Red Fist (Hong Quan) and Cannon pounding.

It is true that some Chen Family members studied at the Shaolin Temple for some time, not surprising considering the distance between the two.

It is not the first time that I heard those arguments that Chen is Shaolin and not Taijiquan, have heard it from quiet a few sites and sources.

FYI, I have attached a link:
The martials Arts practide in the Chen Village (http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg2.htm)

Many will already know this site.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Dunno Lawrence but what he says about the Yang lineage is true. There are only two teachers in the US that come from the genuine Yang lineage- Chu Gin Soon, and his son Vincent. They teach in Boston. The ONLY other school that I am aware of is the John Ding Academy of Tai Chi in London, England. John ding is the "official" 6th generation Lineage holder of the Yang style. One of his students, named Richard Dunn, also teaches in England, and runs one of those Yahoo discussion groups. I have taken some quotes from Richard relevant to this subject and pass them along to you all... Here's the link to his group, just know that you have to be "approved" to join it.

groups.yahoo.com/groups/energeticsart

(that's why i'm passing this stuff on here, to make it easier for you guys...) BTW- the "CMC" acronym means Cheng Man Ching, YLC-Yang Lu Chan, YCF-Yang Cheng Fu.

--------------------------
"TAI-CHI CHUAN

According to what I have heard both the Chen family and the Yang family
considered themselves to be Buddhist and the name for our art was nothing to
do with them. It was applied by (royal?) persons unknown in Beijing after
YLC started teaching there in order to deify it. The full Yin/Yang link was
only applied then as well as before that there was only a tenuous
connection. Also (this is a surmise from what I have been told) YLC was
taught the full art by Chen? (I have forgotten which) as he felt none of
that generation of Chen students were good enough and he was afraid the full
art would be lost, which happened over the next couple of generations. Also
YLC added more of the soft and internal side to the art in Beijing as the
Manchu had a fascination for Cheng San Feng and it was politically
appropriate to link to him and YLC discovered the soft side to be very
powerful. This process was extended by YBH/YCH and subsequently YCF.

Chen style had more in common with Shaolin than what we consider now to
be Tai Chi in the early days and there was little distinction placed between
soft and hard, external and internal, as we do now, especially as Shaolin
was considered in its day to understand the Yin side in its advanced
training. The process of Tai Chi 'ifying Chen came about when Chen FaKe went
to Beijing in the early part of the last century and had to adopt the name
Tai Ch Chuan for his family art in order for it to be accepted (even so
there was a lot of contention about it) and took his art more to the Yin
side accordingly.

For me the process of our arts development is a cyclic process
through birth growth corruption then decay and rebirth and this process has
happened throughout time and the Chen knowledge probably came from a source
that decayed, then went through its own decay and rebirth and perhaps we are
at the stage now where the Yang style will have to do the same, where as
Chen is at the moment having a resurgence.

Also you cannot consider Tai Chi in isolation from what is happening in the
world generally and the publics changed expectations have to be exploited
and satisfied and "dumbed down" Tai Chi wet noodle, started by CMC? will
grow whether we like it or not, but we must never lose the original art, as
we still have it, and we must retain as many variations of it as possible in
order to keep the genetic pool alive and viable, be that Chen Yang Wu Sun
and their many and infinite variations.

What we now call Tai Chi Chuan has always changed and adapted to its time
and will continue to do so as long as we don't forget the principles, but
also don't set the interpretation of them in stone as then you don't see
around the trees and your interpretation will change with your sensitivity
to it.."

--------------------
"Taijiquan Gets Its Name

When Yang Lu Chan first taught the art in Yung Nien, his art was referred to
as 'Mien Quan' or (Cotton Fist) or 'Hua Quan' (Neutralising Fist), it was
not yet called Taijiquan. Whilst teaching at the Imperial Court, Yang met
many challenges, some friendly some not. But he invariably won and in so
convincingly using his soft techniques that he gained a great reputation.

Many who frequented the imperial households would come to view his matches.
At one such gatherings at which Yang had won against several reputable
opponents. The scholar Ong Tong He was present and was so impressed by the
way Yang moved and executed his techniques and felt that his movements and
techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the principles of Taiji
(the philosophy) wrote for him a matching verse:

'Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world,
a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.'

Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang
from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan."

-------------------------
"The
major problem is if you insist on seeing Tai-Chi Chuan as just its surface,
its physical nature, then I suppose Chen is Tai-Chi, BUT Tai-Chi is NOT Real
Tai-Chi until you have been able to internalise (turn the physical to
energetic) the art, which from what I have seen of the modern forms is next
to nobody, so they DO NOT DO TAI-CHI CHUAN, they do something else and I
wish they would stop using the name. Tai-Chi Chuan is a specific set of
skills and principles laid down in the classic principles and concepts
spoken and written of by Yang family members and disciples. The Chen family
and the PRC have hi-jacked the name for their own purposes, the PRC with the
simplified and competition forms, and Chen with a more real Shaolin type art
than the nonsense being currently pushed as Shaolin. Note for a lot of
people they would see this as a compliment, it makes Chen family art a very
effective external martial art that has many of the softer elements in it
that have been lost from the Shaolin now being taught."

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

OTOH. it is interesting to note that the
following site http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ has a Chen article about Silk reeling on it.

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/rep/archives/silk_reeling.htm



Silk reeling is a subject rarely talked about in Yang family taiji. Though you don't hear much discussion of the topic under this name, actually Yang style also does contain most of the same elements elaborated as silk reeling in other styles (though the shape of the hands in Yang Chengfu style - fingers slightly curved, palms slightly extended - is different from that shown in figure 1 below).

- Jerry



IME, most people don't really care if Chen is TJQ or not, it still is a good system to learn.

[Fu-Pow]

"The
major problem is if you insist on seeing Tai-Chi Chuan as just its surface,
its physical nature, then I suppose Chen is Tai-Chi, BUT Tai-Chi is NOT Real
Tai-Chi until you have been able to internalise (turn the physical to
energetic) the art, which from what I have seen of the modern forms is next
to nobody, so they DO NOT DO TAI-CHI CHUAN, they do something else and I
wish they would stop using the name. Tai-Chi Chuan is a specific set of
skills and principles laid down in the classic principles and concepts
spoken and written of by Yang family members and disciples. The Chen family
and the PRC have hi-jacked the name for their own purposes, the PRC with the
simplified and competition forms, and Chen with a more real Shaolin type art
than the nonsense being currently pushed as Shaolin. Note for a lot of
people they would see this as a compliment, it makes Chen family art a very
effective external martial art that has many of the softer elements in it
that have been lost from the Shaolin now being taught."


What the hell? The whole basis of Chen Taiji is Peng, Lu, Ji and An. That's not soft?

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


What the hell? The whole basis of Chen Taiji is Peng, Lu, Ji and An. That's not soft?

I don't think Richard was criticising "soft", but what is, and what is not "energetic", versus what is physical. He's saying Taiji ain't Taiji unless it has "energetics", which he says Chen style is devoid of. (here comes the sh*t storm)

.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

I don't think Richard was criticising "soft", but what is, and what is not "energetic", versus what is physical. He's saying Taiji ain't Taiji unless it has "energetics", which he says Chen style is devoid of. (here comes the sh*t storm)


I have read quiet a few posts by Richard on another forum(not his).

My question is what experience does Richard Dunn have with Chen TJQ?

How long and under whom did the study?

Just would like to know on what he is basing his statements on.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Now I am confused.

Just found this little bit of info:

http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/taichistyles.html

Doesn't sound like the guy I met online and quoted above and this guy are the same person despite sharing the name.

:confused:

[GLW]

"Dunno Lawrence but what he says about the Yang lineage is true. There are only two teachers in the US that come from the genuine Yang lineage- Chu Gin Soon, and his son Vincent. They teach in Boston."

Absolutely WRONG....

Yang Chengfu had more than one son...he also had several students of note.

Fu Zhongwen - argued by many to be closest to Yang Chengfu in form...had a number of students. There are at least 5 people in the USThat can trace to him.

Dong yingjie - student of Yang Chengfu - His son and grandson teach in Hawaii and they have a number of students teaching in the Continental US.

Then you get to Yang Chengfu's son - Yang Zhenduo - recently immigrated to the US along with his grandson and they have a school.

There ARE others...Such as those that learned Yang and Chen such as Gu Luxin -- and he has a number of students in the US and some learned not only chen from him but also Yang style.

They all do the same routine with much the same flavor.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


I have read quiet a few posts by Richard on another forum(not his).

My question is what experience does Richard Dunn have with Chen TJQ?

How long and under whom did the study?

Just would like to know on what he is basing his statements on.

He studied under John Ding (link below) for something like ten years, but it is my understanding that they had some kind of falling out. I remember him saying that he's been doing Taiji for 14 years and teaching for almost half that time.

John Ding's website: http://www.taichiwl.demon.co.uk/

As far as his experience with chen goes, I can't say for sure. I've been intending to contact him, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. I do know that his main criticism against Chen style is that it lacks "energetics" and thus should not be called Taijiquan. Here's another quote from him about this-

"The advanced forms of both styles are probably just
as difficult physically. The major difference is that Yang considers the
energetic work to be high level and the physical work to be low level but
both are important, in Chen the energetic work is either lost or hidden from
non family members, in fact they try to deny it exists."

Like I said, I haven't contact him yet, and as of yet I am drawing no judgement on anything he's saying. Just passing some information along here, so please excuse the selective editing.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by GLW
"Dunno Lawrence but what he says about the Yang lineage is true. There are only two teachers in the US that come from the genuine Yang lineage- Chu Gin Soon, and his son Vincent. They teach in Boston."

Absolutely WRONG....

Yang Chengfu had more than one son...he also had several students of note.

Fu Zhongwen - argued by many to be closest to Yang Chengfu in form...had a number of students. There are at least 5 people in the USThat can trace to him.

Dong yingjie - student of Yang Chengfu - His son and grandson teach in Hawaii and they have a number of students teaching in the Continental US.

Then you get to Yang Chengfu's son - Yang Zhenduo - recently immigrated to the US along with his grandson and they have a school.

There ARE others...Such as those that learned Yang and Chen such as Gu Luxin -- and he has a number of students in the US and some learned not only chen from him but also Yang style.

They all do the same routine with much the same flavor.

Thanks for the heads up... I wasn't aware. I've seen some good Yang Lineage flowcharts with some of these names on them, but did not know that there were more of them in the US. Again- thank you.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Now I am confused.

Just found this little bit of info:

http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/taichistyles.html

Doesn't sound like the guy I met online and quoted above and this guy are the same person despite sharing the name.

:confused:

That's him.

[bob10]

The John Ding school stresses a lot of empty force work (hence Richard's "energetics").

AFAIK JD has no experience of Chen style. Prior to tai chi he studied Shaolin and Praying Mantis kung fu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Although i do favor the individuality of Yang and Chen styles, i also see the numerous similarities... as one of my respected teachers says, "its not the form, its the principles that make good Taiji"... While we may argue the nuances of what history has concealed from us, we can also apply the principles to many aspects of our everyday life.. I tend to believe that Taiji emerges in whatever "form" we are doing when we express the principles.. the form may be Yang, Chen, Bagua, or washing the car.. as we can see, just from the posts in here, there are many differing opinions, theories and historical accounts.. too many to make an authoritative statement.. What we can see, though, is that almost every internal style is supported by good solid and common principles.. silk reeling, QiGong, frame alignment, DanTien rotation, relaxed power, breath control, etc..

What i see, from time to time, is the good intentions of contributors to these forums being challenged according to someone's preference of beliefs.. beliefs founded on largely unverifiable historical accounts or their teacher's own beliefs.. in any case, i find myself being much more satisfied with experiencing as many "internal" teachers as possible and absorbing that which is clearly supported by principle.. I would be disappointed if i missed quality experiences due to a pre-supposed notion that this or that style wasn't "true Taiji".. Regardless of the style, when we see principles emerge in the performance it is obvious and transcends arbitrary preferences..

Just another perspective.. Be well..

[Brad]

I do know that his main criticism against Chen style is that it lacks "energetics" and thus should not be called Taijiquan.
What exactly does "energetics" mean? This word is new to me :p

[bob10]

It would seem to indicate primarliy empty force work. I believe it is described as using the "yi" to control anothers "chi".

[bamboo_ leaf]

Chen style is too hard for the masses. Yang Chen Fu did a great thing making tai chi soft so that old people, children, and anyone with limited abilities could easily play along.


"dumbed down" Tai Chi wet noodle, started by CMC? will
grow whether we like it or not, but we must never lose the original art

I always read statements like these on the net and really have to wonder weather people really know this to be true by exprince or just what is said.

I learned Yang style from a teacher in HI who studied under Tung Kai Ying; I also learned CMC style from 2 teachers that studied under CMC. I now practice a variation of the yang style as taught by my teacher’s master in Beijing.

Something that looks soft is not so easy to do. I have found it to be more physically demanding then many of the other CMA arts I played before finding taiji.

I have also read the common historical development of taiji. Depending on who you follow, some might consider the Yang styles an improvement over the chen. Or even that the Yang style is closer to the original idea introduced to the chen boxing before it became known as chen taiji, I really don’t think it matters to much.

There are good exponents of all the major schools, they all have one thing in common, lots and lots of hard work making it work for them.

I just wonder for those that make statements about the yang styles and the variations, how they reached their conclusions.

[count]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Chen style is too hard for the masses. Yang Chen Fu did a great thing making tai chi soft so that old people, children, and anyone with limited abilities could easily play along.


"dumbed down" Tai Chi wet noodle, started by CMC? will
grow whether we like it or not, but we must never lose the original art

I always read statements like these on the net and really have to wonder weather people really know this to be true by exprince or just what is said.

I learned Yang style from a teacher in HI who studied under Tung Kai Ying; I also learned CMC style from 2 teachers that studied under CMC. I now practice a variation of the yang style as taught by my teacher’s master in Beijing.

Something that looks soft is not so easy to do. I have found it to be more physically demanding then many of the other CMA arts I played before finding taiji.

I have also read the common historical development of taiji. Depending on who you follow, some might consider the Yang styles an improvement over the chen. Or even that the Yang style is closer to the original idea introduced to the chen boxing befoer it became known as chen taiji, I really don’t think it matters to much.

There are good exponents of all the major schools, they all have one thing in common, lots and lots of hard work making it work for them.

I just wonder for those that make statements about the yang styles and the variations, how they reached their conclusions.

Well bamboo, my statement is from my own experience and observation. My teachers Yang style comes from Wu Ti-Pang and Yang Bao-Chien and his Chen style from Du Yu-Tse. I practice both. In addition, I have also learned extensively the 24 PRC version which is the most widely known of all of them. While I also learned some Sun style and tasted some Wu style, my assesment was based on Chen style which is accepted to pre date Yang Lu Chan. My observation was based on the popularity of one and the fact that the training in Chen style is too difficult for most people. It is obvious by the higher postures and slow practice that this was changed to make it user friendly to more people. It was not a condemnation of Yang style at all. Only what was popularized by Yang Chen Fu. On the other hand, that has become the style most people recognize as Yang style. I only said I thought in my own opinion that should be called something else. ;) It was not to say it was bad or not useable. Read what I said again and without your personal bias. I think I can back up each statement I made as either fact or personal opinion.

[count]

I would also comment the same of Chen style. I have seen Chen style played with higher postures and softer in an attempt to popularize it.:cool:

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Count,

I used the comments to be illustrative of things that I have seen posted many times on the net, not to change or be against anyone’s ideas or beliefs directly.

Yep I guess I have to check my bias at the door, I have met a couple of chen guys, and have seen many demos of it. Cant say that I really care for it.

Just wondered as my own experience seems to be so different with the yang styles that people refer to, even with the CMC style many seek to use this as an example of something that was (watered down) instead of something that is condensed. …..Ben Lo, a noted CMC player had some tough classes if memory serves me. ;) i wouldn't call it waterd down by anymeans.

As I said before, in the end it doesn’t really matter, just some thinking out loud.

Happy Halloween :cool:

[count]

I have met serious Yang stylists, especially Kuang Ping lineage, who were serious fighters and hardcore pracitioners too. It's just that I have never met any Yang stylist that didn't practice other martial arts. I have met Chen folks who claim to have never practiced anything else and could kick some serious ass. Just my own observations as were the ones on the website in question. I just thought the comments on the website were out of line. Maybe mine are too.:(

Happy Halloween back at ya!
BOO!!:eek:

[Fu-Pow]

Chen style lacking energetics? WTF????

My understanding was that Yang Lu Chan actually studied Shaolin before learning Taiji. The stances in Yang styles seem to have a stronger influence from Shaolin arts then those from Chen Style.

I'll tell you guys what I think the major difference between Chen and Yang style is. In Chen the spiral movement is more obvious. In Yang it is more hidden.

At a high level in Chen the spiral movement becomes more hidden.

But in my opinion Chen is actually easier to learn, and learn correctly because the spiral movement is more obvious. This is a boon for begginners.

In Yang it is hidden and so many who study Yang miss it and it become the infamous "wet noodle."

[RAF]

I think that the postures taught to Du Yu Zhi (Ze) as taught to him by Chen Fake's father, Chen Yan Xi have a very strong affinity with longfist.

In this version, the dan bian is a clearcut bow stance, with complete waist rotation to the right and this can be found in many places. The chan si jing has a different appearance and flavor relative to many of the versions seen today. Take a look at Chen Fake's dan bian and other deep postures (I also have seen Yang Cheng Fu lineage holders execute the same postures with deep stances).

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

I think it may be well worth reading or rereading one of Jarek's posts:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji.html

Without going through the whole thing again, here is a previous post which has Master Du performing lao jia at age 79. The tempo he plays at is exactly the first level we teach students to play at and surprises them when they learn our Yang's version (the similiarity is striking for many).

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23715

The first two clips no longer yield a performance but Master Du's clip is there.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Bob10 wrote:
The John Ding school stresses a lot of empty force work (hence Richard's "energetics").
Does Sifu Ding use that term? Richard Dunn claims that the energetics they do is not empty force (see quote below)

Brad wrote
What exactly does "energetics" mean? This word is new to me
bob10 also wrote:
It would seem to indicate primarliy empty force work. I believe it is described as using the "yi" to control anothers "chi".
Here are more quotes from Richard on this subject...

"
Mostly
this work is in contact it just happens that sometimes that contact is
stretched beyond the physical and is felt and used energetically, this in
not "empty force"."

Ling Kong Jin and Kong Jin have for some reason become the
accepted definitions in the west of this work but that is more associated
with working on the upper energy centre, this work is more to do with the
lower energy centre and is known as "sticky" and was the main change that
was added to the physical elements of Chen Style that caused the name
Tai-Chi Chuan to be applied to the Yang family art in the mid 19th century." NOTE: His student Nick Schifer wrote this one.

Li-Yi-Chi or
Yi-Chi-Li or ultimately in Tai-Chi Chuan Chi-Yi-Li most don't get past the
first stage.

For a beginner the mind says I want to do this, the Chi
carries the instruction, the body does the work and muscle has to be used.
We then learn the physical principles to remove the need for tense or hard
muscle and at that stage the Chi will start to emerge from behind them and
you will become aware of it, but the body will still be leading it. At this
point we must, with visualisation, try to take the body as much out of the
equation as possible and then as you discover how to be fully Song and
develop Zhong Ding and the Chi will then start to lead the body, at this
stage you must try and suppress conscious desire of action and make it more
unconscious, or intent (Yi) led.
AT THAT POINT IT STARTS TO BECOME AN INTERNAL ART.

The next stage is
when the Yi or intent of mind no longer directs the Chi but leads it, at
that point the involvement of the body becomes less and less until the first
time you shift someone without touching them. Just because you have done it
once with one person doesn't mean you can do it again, everybody you work
with will be different and it is not just your ability that dictates how you
proceed in any contact (chi or physical) work. The contact point is an
interface of Yi, Chi, and physical strength, your way to work depends on
your opponent or training partner, first probe energetically, if blocked
apply the body. The process is to take their centre energetically or if that
fails then physically. Some people have a more natural usage ability and
also natural defences, some are brick walls and some are jelly and all point
in between, any preconceived plan of action is useless and the energy path,
how ever exploited, should be instantaneous which is why of all the forms of
training involved in developing this area sensitivity training is by far the
most important, without the ability to read you cannot act or react
effectively.

The suck and blow I was referring to is gentle and as soon as you get some
movement you reverse it, creating an oscillation. But they can be used full
out as well, I suppose you can think of suck as yin and blow as yang but
there is more to it than that and you can make some strange variations as
you can Yang physically but suck (yin) energetically, it becomes a bit like
throwing a limp sack :o). it comes from the training technique known as
Dynamic Pushing Hands. Below is a simplistic explanation of how this
technique works energetically in training. I will do more posts explaining
other aspects of it. It is done by visualisation. It is technique that was
only taught to Yang Family accepted students or lineage holders (disciples
or family), but since the death of Zhen Ming the disciple lines are making
it more available.. If you go to Chu Gin Soon's website there are (or were)
some video clips of it.

The idea is to get your student to commit themselves completely to pushing
into your root with as much physical strength as they can muster, you can
then alternate between "suck and blow" to feel for their energy (Chi) which
will emerge from behind the physical push. Once you locate it you can tap
into it with your Chi (if you are able to control it) Chi has an affinity
for other Chi and because your student wont have the means to control it you
can then play with it, but with most students you have to get them to commit
their mind to the game in order to keep their Chi out (once you get a
reaction that reaction is normally fascinating enough for the student to
keep them focused). Once their Chi is "out" you can use "blow" to compress
it into their hands to lock them together, or "suck" which tends to make it
flap around. The hook for the student is that they cannot release the Chi as
long as they stay focused on it. Some students are so fascinated by it that
they can't release it themselves even when you break the link with your own
Chi, so you have to do it for them, others break the energy link very
quickly either because they don't like it, are worried about it or it
generates fear. If you try it with someone who hasn't developed the basic
Tai-Chi skills (invest in loss) or a physical root and hasn't done the
apprenticeship, then you are mostly playing with shadows. Though inversely
you will occasionally find someone where it just pours out!!

When you "get" that then you can use those techniques to tap into
others and show them etc etc etc. The only person trained in these specific
techniques in the USA is Chu Gin Soon, which I am sure he has passed to his
sons and disciple, but I am sure others must be able to show it or have
developed other methods to bring it out. Every action must involve Chi, but
"normal" action involves muscle which is
activated by the Chi but from that point on it is just a mechanical process.
Relax (unstress the structure), but keep the structure linked and aligned
through to the root, put you Yi in gear (focus and direct the unconscious
mind) and the Chi will flow past the muscle and do the work required.


SO- He says that what he does is NOT empty force, and that Yi leading another's chi is only mid level to the highest goal in Yang style. His claim that only Yang Disciples get this training, but that it is now becoming more available (thru HIM, of course)

What I am wondering about is that Gin Soon And John Ding refer to this stuff as "Empty Force", while Richards crew denies that.

AND- He claims that despite there being many Yang Disciples in the US, that Gin Soon is the only one of them that has this training.

Hmm.

[looking_up]

Compare:

Shaolin master performing Chen taiji:

http://www.shaolintempel.at/shiyanming_austriaedit1.mov

(This is a pretty big file, the taiji is at the end of the clip.


Chen family member performing Chen taiji:

(you'll need Real Player)

http://jiaozuo.chinese.com/Avseq01.rm

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Chen style lacking energetics? WTF????


But in my opinion Chen is actually easier to learn, and learn correctly because the spiral movement is more obvious. This is a boon for begginners.

In Yang it is hidden and so many who study Yang miss it and it become the infamous "wet noodle."

I dunno, it's really hard to do silk reeling correctly. I find (with my very limited experience with yang) that Yang style is a little easier. This is because you can focuse more on the "linear" type jin than trying to add on the silk reeling aspects of it. Of course, it don't really matter if the person don't have a clue on what to do. Not to mention most ppl force the spiraling (instead of letting it happen naturally by how the muscles are laid out) and even though that may add more power, it isn't correct.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Having learned a Yang based system first and now doing Chen I must say that I personally find Chen harder.

This sentiment is echoed among previous Yang students in my class.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Tak
What do you think about Sifu Lawrence's implication (if not outright statement) that Chen isn't a "real" style of Taiji?

http://www.xianghua.com/articles/taijiquan.asp
http://www.xianghua.com/questions/questions008.asp

Well, I've seen so many of these type of slandering that I pretty much lose respect of anyone as *a person* who engage in this activities no matter how accomplished they are in their chosen style.

This is no different from Chen stylist slandering Yang style for lacking in martial aspect because it is *too* soft.

These people are exercising "Principles of promotion of martial arts", especially number 5.



5. Don't be shy
Like the existence of secret techniques, the shortcomings of other styles should be loudly and publicly announced.
It is not so much that other styles have to be directly badmouthed (though that can be fun), more that they are subtly compared to the sublime intricacies of your chosen art and found wanting.


http://www.palmchange.com/V3/promotion.php

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Having studies both Yang and Chen styles, having been fortunate enough to be awarded gold medals in both styles at international competitions.. having studied with some of the most recognized names in the Arts.. it is my humble opinion that both styles, when practiced correctly, represent good Tai Chi principles.. as i have stated previously, i look for the principles not the choreography.. appearing too soft or too hard are qualities of preference.. hard or soft can express good principles, particularly when "hard/soft" are merely appearances.. i have seen people appear soft, but are resistant to the touch.. likewise i have tried to block a hard punch that disappeared like water.. what we think we see is not always the case.. evaluate principles, not styles..

Be well...

[Tak]

Originally posted by Vapour
http://www.palmchange.com/V3/promotion.php Beautiful page. Although, it seems that many of the other people here have already read it.

[wongfeilung809]

i was hoping someone on this forum knows of any chen style in the boston area? Any information would be helpful thanks.
johnny

[Chinese Guy]

Come to China please,hoho.

[RAF]

See Herb Rich. He will know.

http://www.chenstyle.com/

[wongfeilung809]

thanks.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I want to learn Chen style taichi, i have no other option but to try to learn from a book until either a teacher moves here or i move somewhere else could yall please recommend so quality books to learn from? I know its really bad to learn from a book but there is no one within a 50mi. radius that teaches tai chi, Im in Springfield, Missouri by the way.

Anyone know some good ones?

[SimonM]

The Tao of Taijiquan

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.stltaiji.com/frontpage.html


I don’t know to much about chen style others may have some opinions on this teacher but he is in st Louis.

Even if you could only drive there once a month it would be much better then attempting to learn something with out a teacher.

[lltdow]

There are about 4 different Chen teachers here in Kansas City if you are interested. I know it would be about a 4 hour drive. I'll monitor this forum if you really want to know.

[wingchunner]

Email me or PM me. Perhaps I might be able to help you.

Email:

wingchunner@yahoo.com

[cybermantis]

Could anyone tell me what exactly is Chen Style Taiji? I heard it is more of a fighting art than for health?

[SPJ]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xx5BOExBzNU

this is a popular link in several forums.

can't resist to link it.

:D

[cybermantis]

nice.......................nice..................a wesome!!!!!!!!!!

But is this Chenstyle Taichi???????????

[B-Rad]

Yes, that's Chen taiji quan.

[B-Rad]

You can also find a 14 minute documentary (in Chinese :p) on http://www.taiji.de

[danMilwaukee]

I'm looking for some help on this particular type of Tai Chi in this Youtube video. I can't seem to match this style with any other Chen Style Tai Chi anywhere. Does anyone have an information on which branch of Chen Style she is doing? Thank you.

I'm sorry, here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0L5y-h3RmA

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm looking for some help on this particular type of Tai Chi in this Youtube video. I can't seem to match this style with any other Chen Style Tai Chi anywhere. Does anyone have an information on which branch of Chen Style she is doing? Thank you.

link maybe?

[mawali]

The routine is either one of the following:
1. Laojia (Old? Frame)
2. Xiaojia (Small Frame)
3. Xinjia (New Frame)

If you are expecting a posture by posture representation of a specific frame/set, then this is/will be a misnomer. This rarely happens. Size, athletic ability, level of fitness, etc all influence form presentation and skill thereof.

[danMilwaukee]

Bump, sorry I forgot the link but now I posted it.

[QuaiJohnCain]

It's a mish-mash of xinjia yilu/erlu movements. It does not appear to be one of the standardized competition sets. The way it is being done is in tune with performance wushu- not any kind of taiji, Chen or otherwise.

[bawang]

its a modern competition form

[GeneChing]

Some one sent this to me. I didn't know where else to post this.

firefighter tai chi chen 38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdmIWjPI7vs)

[danMilwaukee]

Some one sent this to me. I didn't know where else to post this.

firefighter tai chi chen 38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdmIWjPI7vs)

Didn't expect that.

[chaz71]

I am new to learning Chen style Taijiquan and am interested to know if this style has remained unchanged by the communist intervention of the 1950's?
I understand that traditional martial art was opposed in this era and the teachers were ' encouraged ' to standardise modern format routines rather than traditional routines.
After this period and with the expansion of traditional arts coming out of China in the 1980's I am interested to know if the routines of the old style ( Laojia) taught today are from the period before the communist intervention.
Many thanks

[SPJ]

research research research

1. chen chang xin old frame. it is the frame that yang lu chan purportely learned and started yang.

2. chen fa ke's father, chen yan xi -> du yu zhe

old frame

3. chen fa ke new frame, added more small and mid circles and returning coiling to his father's old frame.

if you may learn the 3 frames

you may be able to understand more about the theory and practice

and the evolution.

2 and 3 are newer developments post yang lu chan.

---

[SimonM]

I am new to learning Chen style Taijiquan and am interested to know if this style has remained unchanged by the communist intervention of the 1950's?
I understand that traditional martial art was opposed in this era and the teachers were ' encouraged ' to standardise modern format routines rather than traditional routines.
After this period and with the expansion of traditional arts coming out of China in the 1980's I am interested to know if the routines of the old style ( Laojia) taught today are from the period before the communist intervention.
Many thanks

The sky is high and the emperor is far away.

Honestly people have this view of China as some sort of clock work authoritan ubercountry. The fact is that China has 1.4 billion people, 56 recognized ethnicities, the third largest landmass of any country in the world, and a central government jammed up in what is effectively the north-east corner of the country.

Lots of stuff goes on in China all the time that may formally contravene what the government wants. Even during the worst excesses of the cultural revolution and the great leap forward stuff got overlooked.

So whenever you see some bit of history floating up in China and ask "well how did this survive historical event X?" (And in China's 5000 years of history there have been quite a few tumultuous periods of history.) Just remember: the sky is high and the emperor is far away.

[SPJ]

yes

tian gao huan di yuan

:cool:

[chaz71]

Thanks for the input. I do appreciate it. I had the good fortune to train with Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang this year and it has renewed my respect and interest.

[Mantis9700]

I dont mean to hijack this thread and didnt want to start a new one. I was wondering if anyone here has had the chance to train chen taiji with Arthur D'Agostino. I am looking for a chen taiji instructor in the tampa florida area and as far as I know he is the closest. Thanx

[Empty_Cup]

This thread is for discussion of Chen Taijiquan in general.


To start with, what do folks think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDrHZdDu7A

[mawali]

His performance is fantastic!
How can that display be transformed into application, tuishou, etc within the pajama nandu arena? Just arsking?

[Sima Rong]

I don't know much about Chen Taiji, but a lot of his movements look very...snappy. Not sure if it would be a good idea to try to grab this guy.

[YouKnowWho]

I have met many Chen Taiji teachers that they have never sparred in their life time. I just don't understand why they may think that solo form performance is so important. To me, the world that they live in is different from the one that I live in. I still cannot accept those who trains TCMA for "health only" as "one of us" no matter how beautiful their form may look like.

[Bacon]

I have met many Chen Taiji teachers that they have never sparred in their life time. I just don't understand why they may think that solo form performance is so important. To me, the world that they live in is different from the one that I live in. I still cannot accept those who trains TCMA for "health only" as "one of us" no matter how beautiful their form may look like.

I may not agree with everything you say but I certainly agree with this.

[Vajramusti]

This thread is for discussion of Chen Taijiquan in general.


To start with, what do folks think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDrHZdDu7A
--------------------------------------------------------------------

A good video. First rate form combined with first rate push hands timing work makes Chen style superb for self defense as well as health.

[Tame The Tiger]

In my view the guy is good.

I don't know how old he is but he's no spring chicken either. He's a walking advertisement for Chen Tai Chi as a health exercise. I make no comment on whether he can fight or not. I don't know his background and haven't touched hands with him. Certainly, solo forms and push hands by themselves aren't enough to get him (or any one else) over the line.

His fajin is good, but then again I expect that from a sifu. I wouldn't say it was anything special, though.

I note he gets a bit of "back" into his fast strikes. Almost like White Crane styles.

[xinyidizi]

I have met many Chen Taiji teachers that they have never sparred in their life time. I just don't understand why they may think that solo form performance is so important. To me, the world that they live in is different from the one that I live in. I still cannot accept those who trains TCMA for "health only" as "one of us" no matter how beautiful their form may look like.

I know what you mean but there is something wrong with this logic: If they have never sparred then it means that they haven't finished the Chen system and therefore can not be called Chen Taijiquan teachers. Maybe they can call themselves taiji ticao or yangsheng but certainly not quan.
In Chenjiagou and other places that have legitimate teachers, they clearly teach combat skills to the disciples who want to finish the system and nowadays there are all kinds of sanshou competitions available for the students so that they can test their skills.

There are many people in the world who practice Taiji but even now there are very few legitimate teachers and there is only very few of their disciples who get to learn the whole system.

[OTD]

Everyone

Is there a "poem" for any particular Version(s) of the Chen T'ai Chi we are
discussing Here?... If so any one would Care/Want to Post a few Lines from the
Opening ?....

OTD

[taai gihk yahn]

here are some examples of a slightly more...well, shall we say, eclectic style of Chen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Tuce0azK8ZE

you may not think this man is a skilled taiji practitioner, but if you read his comments, you realize that he is a Master of Evasion...


but that's nothing compared to his take on fa jing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8V-odOigII&feature=relmfu

at ~1:35, he TOTALLY blew to shreds and re-organized my paradigm of understanding, with his comment that "ultimate softness (is) like a pile of t-shirts";

profoundly deep, and deeply profound...

[Sima Rong]

but that's nothing compared to his take on fa jing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8V-odOigII&feature=relmfu

at ~1:35, he TOTALLY blew to shreds and re-organized my paradigm of understanding, with his comment that "ultimate softness (is) like a pile of t-shirts";

profoundly deep, and deeply profound...

Tragically amusing! :D But... what does this have to do with the original link, apart from making the 'Explosive Tai Chi Power Move' look more and more like a bottom explosion?

whew!.... I thought he was going to explode that dog with ultimate power for a second.

I wonder if any Chen Tai Ji practitioners or any more practitioners of the internal arts could comment on the original video. I also found this one online: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WPMWutnSdc which shows some applications.

[YouKnowWho]

If they have never sparred then it means that they haven't finished the Chen system and therefore can not be called Chen Taijiquan teachers.

I agree with you 100% on this. Unfortunately that may be assumption but not reality. :(

[Empty_Cup]

...
I wonder if any Chen Tai Ji practitioners or any more practitioners of the internal arts could comment on the original video. ...

Here are the things I really, really liked about the original video:
Stances - his low stances were incredible. You could tell from the video that he could stay in those stances all day if need be. I don't know what effect it would have on qi circulation, but for a training exercise it looked excellent.
Fa jin - Very nice, powerful strikes. Really exemplified the "soft like a whip" mentality.
Transitional movements - Notice his footwork. When twisting the body his feet opened up and looked to me like he maintained nice balance through the transition.
Weight distribution - I liked that he never became too front or back-loaded and balance looked excellent.
Compactness - Notice his arms/hands rarely went outside the cylinder of his feet. This is what I have always been taught to do with Chen taiji. Keeps his rooting well within this cylinder.

Some things I noticed that weren't so great:
Posing - I have always been taught to think of taiji like a movie vs. a combination of still photographs. Seemed to me there were many "frozen" moments between postures.
Superfluous movement - Notice his shoulder/back movements at 4:00, 4:03, and 4:20. Seems like this is above and beyond "lead with the waist" and is unnecessary movement.
Waist/arm connection - Sometimes he did this well and sometimes not so much. Leading with the waist and arms follow.
Hands follow eyes follow hands - I've always been taught to focus on the hands as much as possible during taiji. Many moments in the vid where this wasn't the case.

Eager to hear what other specifics people liked/didn't like.

[Fa Xing]

Chen family book.


That is worthy of discussion. I think its 500 bucks on amazon and worth it.

There's a digital copy floating around on the interwebs. It's quite extensive, and quite nice.

[Jimbo]

Although I'm not a Taiji practitioner, I thought his form was excellent. I have no idea if he can actually fight or not, but I think it's easy for a lot of people to automatically assume that he can't just because his form is good. Incorrect assumptions can go either way.

**Edit to add:
I am referring to the video in the original post.

[Fa Xing]

This Jake guy's Taiji form is terrible, and anyone can see his disconnected from his body (which I mean is core/center), which is funny when I read that he is athletic because I know lots of athletes who move from their core and they don't practice martial arts.

[xinyidizi]

There's a digital copy floating around on the interwebs. It's quite extensive, and quite nice.

http://www.docin.com/p-333675936.html

click 全屏 at the top right corner for full screen

[xinyidizi]

Nowadays the beauty of the form performance is mostly judged by the external display and exaggerations for commercial reasons. Here is one guy that I like for his small frame who hasn't really been commercialized:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTE2OTI4ODA=.html

[Empty_Cup]

This thread is for discussion of Chen Taijiquan in general.


To start with, what do folks think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDrHZdDu7A


Here are the things I really, really liked about the original video:
Stances - his low stances were incredible. You could tell from the video that he could stay in those stances all day if need be. I don't know what effect it would have on qi circulation, but for a training exercise it looked excellent.
Fa jin - Very nice, powerful strikes. Really exemplified the "soft like a whip" mentality.
Transitional movements - Notice his footwork. When twisting the body his feet opened up and looked to me like he maintained nice balance through the transition.
Weight distribution - I liked that he never became too front or back-loaded and balance looked excellent.
Compactness - Notice his arms/hands rarely went outside the cylinder of his feet. This is what I have always been taught to do with Chen taiji. Keeps his rooting well within this cylinder.

Some things I noticed that weren't so great:
Posing - I have always been taught to think of taiji like a movie vs. a combination of still photographs. Seemed to me there were many "frozen" moments between postures.
Superfluous movement - Notice his shoulder/back movements at 4:00, 4:03, and 4:20. Seems like this is above and beyond "lead with the waist" and is unnecessary movement.
Waist/arm connection - Sometimes he did this well and sometimes not so much. Leading with the waist and arms follow.
Hands follow eyes follow hands - I've always been taught to focus on the hands as much as possible during taiji. Many moments in the vid where this wasn't the case.

Eager to hear what other specifics people liked/didn't like.


Nowadays the beauty of the form performance is mostly judged by the external display and exaggerations for commercial reasons. Here is one guy that I like for his small frame who hasn't really been commercialized:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTE2OTI4ODA=.html

Nice post xinyidizi. The vid u posted shows a much better example of flowing from posture to posture vs the original vid. This is what I meant by "posing" in my likes/dislikes list.

[tattooedmonk]

Everyone

Is there a "poem" for any particular Version(s) of the Chen T'ai Chi we are
discussing Here?... If so any one would Care/Want to Post a few Lines from the
Opening ?....

OTDGolden cyborg Smashes the mortar
Lazy about untying the Coat
Six sealing , Four closing
Single Whip

[GeneChing]

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Chen Tai Chi for Beginners DVD Autographed by Master Chenhan Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-chen-tai-chi.php)! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 9/13/2018.

THREADS
Fall 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70867-Fall-2018)
Chen Taijiquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?64498-Chen-Taijiquan)

http://images.martialartsmart.com/promo/MATT/Chen-Tai-Chi-for-Beginners-Sweepstake.jpg

[GeneChing]

See our WINNERS: Chen Tai Chi for Beginners DVD Autographed by Master Chenhan Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70971-WINNERS-Chen-Tai-Chi-for-Beginners-DVD-Autographed-by-Master-Chenhan-Yang) thread.

[GeneChing]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EI3K1RWVAAAXyD8?format=jpg&name=900x900

I'm late with these. Usually we post the memes towards the end of any given issue's newsstand run. But this time, I forgot to hand them off early enough. One of my best friends died and I've been focused on that. So the memes will run over into next issue, our WINTER 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71573-Winter-2020), which hits newsstands next week.

THREADS
Fall 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71322-Fall-2019)
Chen Taijiquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?64498-Chen-Taijiquan)

[GeneChing]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJv1iRrUwAAp1iu?format=jpg&name=900x900

THREADS
Fall 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71322-Fall-2019)
Chen Taijiquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?64498-Chen-Taijiquan)

[GeneChing]

Interesting. I clip most of the social media images off our twitter (https://twitter.com/KFM_KFTC) because that's robust (I used to clip them off facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Kung-Fu-Tai-Chi-Magazine-135964689362/) but they change their addresses regularly so they disappear eventually). Yesterday's meme had a typo so I deleted it as soon as I saw it. However the image address remains on twit.

Here is the corrected meme.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ1G6hoVUAAdF2D?format=jpg&name=900x900

I've had such trouble with the memes for this issue. Tomorrow is the last one.

THREADS
Fall 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71322-Fall-2019)
Chen Taijiquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?64498-Chen-Taijiquan)

[GeneChing]

Enter to win Two Chen Tai Chi DVDs by Chenhan Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/two-chen-tai-chi-dvds.php). Contest ends 7/23/2020.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/1828_Two-Chen-Tai-Chi-DVDs-Sweepstakes_Large.jpg

Threads
Yang Chenhan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70867)
Chen-style-Taijiquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?61081-Chen-style-Taijiquan)

[GeneChing]

See our WINNERS: Two Chen Tai Chi DVDs by Chenhan Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71836-WINNERS-Two-Chen-Tai-Chi-DVDs-by-Chenhan-Yang) thread.

[GeneChing]

18:14, 15-Aug-2023
Up close with Taijiquan culture in Jiaozuo (https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-08-15/Up-close-with-Taijiquan-culture-in-Jiaozuo-1mhZ4lwL3Dq/index.html)
CGTN

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-08-15/Up-close-with-Taijiquan-culture-in-Jiaozuo-1mhZ4lwL3Dq/img/15c1f7b5841e4ae981d11526194a49f6/15c1f7b5841e4ae981d11526194a49f6.jpeg
"This is how we do it," the sculpture seems to be saying to one of the students undergoing training at the Chenjiagou Taijiquan Cultural International Exchange Center in Wenxian County, Jiaozuo, Henan Province on August 14, 2023. /CFP


Martial arts, in its various forms, are a centuries-old blend of art, sport and culture that's closely linked to the Chinese identity. Its influence has spread across the world as both a sport and a lifestyle.

Northern China is synonymous with the Chen-style Taijiquan form of Tai Chi developed by Chen Wangting during the 16th century, which amplifies the smooth transition from slow to fast movements interlaced with explosive bursts of power.

Its enduring legacy has been the subject of much study and practice as practitioners seek to benefit from the underlying impact of its movements on health, discipline and endurance. This martial arts form stirs up inner power.

Recently, 23 foreign students began a 30-day training and exchange program facilitated by the Ministry of Commerce and implemented by Henan University of Technology.

The students traded their personal clothing for the customary black and white apparel of the arena where groups practice Taijiquan.

The 23 students were drawn from Tunisia, Turkey, Nepal and Mauritius, among other countries. The training program on the Chen-style Taijiquan will take the form of classes, lectures, seminars and exchanges.
I wish these existed when I was in college.