How do you defend against this?

[donjitsu2]

Woman Assaulted by "Dozens" of Teens/Young Adults (http://www.jsonline.com/general/37714089.html?bcpid=23739055001&bctid=1038106097001)

How do you defend against something like this: A group of people who decide to lash out at strangers for the hell of it?

All the Kung Fu/MMA/Sanda/Karate/Krav Maga in the world won't save you from 12+ people bent on beating the dog sh!t out of you.

Obviously, situational awareness and avoiding known bad areas is the first line of good self defense, but what happens if you're at a social event like a downtown festival, outdoor concert, sporting event, ect... and this crap happens?

Similar situations have occurred in Chicago (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/124629279.html), Charlotte (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/05/30/2337890/uptown-chaos-leaves-1-dead.html), and Philadelphia (http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-27/news/29707961_1_twitter-users-mob-trash-cans)

How can you REALISTICALLY protect yourself and your family from stuff like this?

Guns/Weapons?

Run Like he11?

Turtle-up and hope help arrives?

I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and I want to know what you guys think.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Lucas]

ive been there and ive been beaten. if you get caught into the middle of it, nothing you can do but turtle and hope you survive. you cannot run, you cannot fight, not for very long. if you pull a weapon you'll likely end up dead instead of broken. (assuming you are getting beaten by serious individuals) a gun might or might not deter. a knife wont do anything. if you can pull the gun ahead of time thats your best shot, but then you just might end up getting shot instead from behind.

preventative awareness and action... if you can run before you get surrounded, do it.

[TenTigers]

as you said, situational awareness is key. Always scope out your area, look for exits, alcoves, and do some serious profiling. When it goes down, be ready and exit the area asap. Some of these kids strike out at random people. You don't want to be in the crowd.
Watch to see where it is coming from and go in the opposite direction and become invisible.
When you have a good vantage point, pick them off one by one, from the rear and work your way toward the front. Use a suppressor and a flash hider to cover muzzle flash and report.

[SPJ]

I would opt for run and cover.

if you fight even with a club

one of them will get you

you will be subdued.

--

:)

[SPJ]

even a bear or a lion

will walk away from a wolf pack

--

no shame in this.

:D

[Ray Pina]

When I first moved down here to Puerto Rico I got "jumped" by three guys -- one with a pipe -- over a surfing-related incident/localism. I wrote about it here after it happened and I called and thanked my master.

I used my board as a spear/shield and was able to partially deflect the thrown pipe which I recovered after receiving a small gash in my thigh.... the situation was then deflated. I walked home and didn't need stitches.

A week later roughly 15 people came at me, one with a knife and two with guns wrapped in T-shirts.... I'm friends with both those guys now, incidentally. The plan was to shoot me in the leg.

In that instance, after a brief standoff with the dude with the knife, I ran like hell to my truck, took off, and resided to surf the "American" breaks for about 6 to 8 months until things cooled down/I made friends.

I wouldn't consider either incident a victory but the difference the training made, and people here have told me they were impressed by, is that I wasn't scared or bullied away. I stayed.... and I didn't go to the cops.

[GeneChing]

...asking how to defend against an airplane crash.

I was working in the music industry when rap rose up and was witness to a few riots where it was many against one. In one situation, a rent-a-cop was working for security. He was beaten and his gun was stolen. It was fired in the auditorium and there's just nothing like when a crowd runs from gunfire like that. Now, to be able to carry at a concert requires a permit obviously, and that individual wasn't naive. That show was in Oakland where security is tested regularly. That gun bearer just got caught. He survived, but it was very unfortunate. You can 20/20 hindsight that situation all you like, but sometimes you just draw a bad card. You can take all the preventative measures you like, but sometimes fate hands you that bad card, and you just have to do what it takes to survive. There's no use worrying about it.

[YiQuanOne]

Iron shirt Chi Kung might help.

[Snipsky]

In that instance, after a brief standoff with the dude with the knife, I ran like hell to my truck, took off, and resided to surf the "American" breaks for about 6 to 8 months until things cooled down/I made friends.

I wouldn't consider either incident a victory but the difference the training made, and people here have told me they were impressed by, is that I wasn't scared or bullied away. I stayed.... and I didn't go to the cops.

you proved you were down. they have to respect that.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm a homebody! I just avoid drunken crowds!

[SPJ]

if you have the high voltage zapper or stunner

every body will yield

or you just zap thru the crowd and leave behind a trail of lots of down and twitching people

or till your voltage is out.

---

:D

[Ray Pina]

I'm with you... especially now that I'm getting married. If I'm out alone after dark its because I'm on my way home from class.

I'm also 100% in agreement with Gene. You can't prepare for those kinds of situations, because they're random and each one is unique. But you can prepare yourself and mind for chaotic situation.

Another scary moment that was a dud. I was at the Marijuana March in NYC right after Columbine happened. I went off to my my girlfriend at the time something to eat or drink and a large crowd just started running towards me with panic on their face. And it grew as people around noticed. It was so dense I got behind a tree so the mass would pass.

When it thinned out I ran over to where my friends were... nothing really happened to spark that. Something caused a group to panic and it grew from there.

The issue though was, what if there was gun fire? I secured myself momentarily, didn't hear shots and made my way to my friends. I wonder what I would have done if I did hear shots.

[SPJ]

we are not a soldier that is fighting a war.

in that case we will go where the shots are fired.

we are civilians that are trying to survive the street violence or panic crowds.

in this case, we stay down or find cover and run the opposite direction of shots sound.

--

[Snipsky]

The issue though was, what if there was gun fire? I secured myself momentarily, didn't hear shots and made my way to my friends. I wonder what I would have done if I did hear shots.

First natural reaction that we've had was to drop to the ground. but once we were at a party and a fight was gonna break out until someone pulled out a huge hand gun (like dirty harry) and put it in my friends face. that was a tough situation cause we wanted to get him and if it weren't for that gun we would have. All you can do in a situation like that is give up. drop the drama or get shot. i don't think that guy wanted to shoot anyone, just get out of there cause nothing happened. in retrospect you have to let out a big sigh cause it could have gotten really ugly.

[donjitsu2]

a gun might or might not deter. a knife wont do anything. if you can pull the gun ahead of time thats your best shot, but then you just might end up getting shot instead from behind.


See, I don't think a gun (or any weapon really) is a viable option.

A gun COULD work, but you'd have to deploy it and I feel like people seriously overestimate how quickly they can draw their weapon.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with Gene, but he makes a good point.

Though I think there are ways you can prepare yourself mentally for such a situation.

[goju]

Run and if you have to fight run and fight

This famous video is a good way to fist fight multiple people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paCZAxchmjU

The way he moves and positions himself so hes not surrounded is the ideal thing to do


Or if you have a weapon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OYNvqR4Ufs

[Northwind]

One of my worst memories is like that. We had a brief stint in Atlanta about 20 years ago, where the bloods & crips made, what seemed like, a huge recruitment drive.

Myself and about five of my buddies all went to Six Flags Over Georgia (me being the only one having any martial experience whatsoever - including wrestling, or individual competitive sporting either).

At one point during the day, we were all walking down one of the little roads in the amusement park and like a very slow wave, all of us begin to notice the overwhelming similarity in what those around us were wearing...And then all of a sudden, they all ran right through us, charging towards this other group...who were wearing another color...

And then we were right in the mix of it...Like 20 or so guys on either side...

It wasn't pretty, but we all made it out alive...But it sure as hell was nothing like Kung Fu fighting. It was tuck-n-cover, manipulate body masses, identify openings, etc. So, in one very small way it was like converting a single opponent into a mass of them, but solely for finding a window of opportunity and running the hell right through it.

[Hardwork108]

LOL! Living in Colombia feels safe to where you guys live. I mean don't get me wrong, if you frequent the wrong areas and/or mess with the wrong people here then you will be introduced to your maker pretty quickly, but when I am out partying, the last thing that crosses my mind is that someone is going to assault me for "fun" or because of the colors I am wearing, and I do frequent clubs here that are frequented by mafia people, some of whom would eat mosts punks that you guys cross paths with for breakfast.

I guess it is cultural and the society does not create (nor tolerate) brain damaged idiots, who act violent for entertainment purposes. Some Western governments encourage such behavior on purpose by giving such criminals "human rights" and legal protection and so on, to encourage them to behave that way, so that the authorities can control the frightened masses by infringing on their freedoms and spying on them. More cameras on the streets anyone? To protect you, of course, from the graticious criminals we REFUSE to punish.

I am digressing a little, I know, but in other societies the natural order of things would take care of people who just gang up on others and beat them up to death, for "fun". Whereas, in many Western countries these type of criminals are are artificially protected, not to mention nurtured, by the authorities, through long term social planning.

Here in Colombia, and other countries too, you would not have a long life expectancy if you and your friends went out on the weekends looking for trouble and beating people up for fun. Food for thought.

[bawang]

hello

try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH4EUAYLh98

[Ray Pina]

Awesome!.............

[Lucas]

See, I don't think a gun (or any weapon really) is a viable option.

A gun COULD work, but you'd have to deploy it and I feel like people seriously overestimate how quickly they can draw their weapon.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with Gene, but he makes a good point.

Though I think there are ways you can prepare yourself mentally for such a situation.

Personally I would either run or take the beating. I wouldnt pull any weapon at all. Even if you get away, you will get jumped with weapons by those same people later and likely die.

[Cdr.Instigator]

If you pack like I do on a daily basis and every where I go, One of those hooligans would be dead.. It's either that or move to another state less populated by imbeciles!!

[Jimbo]

If you cannot avoid it, you're pretty much in for a beating. However, to just submit to the beating may not always be the best idea. People end up brain dead or plain old dead from beatings. You can't expect a group of thugs to hit/stomp you only a couple of times then stop out of compassion or fear of any consequences.

A real answer is difficult, because with so many people attacking, there's no way you're going to outrun them, esp. when they're: more, sociopathic, younger, in a mob mentality; and you're: outnumbered, older, or have an injury or condition that affects your running speed. I always think of that when hearing people with their kneejerk answer, "Just run away!"

I've been present when a few riots have broken out, and if you've never been, you'd be amazed how quickly things spread and get out of control. People not even involved in the initial violence will suddenly turn and start lashing out at anyone nearby. Luckily I was either on the fringes (when I realized what was going down, I got out of there fast) or slightly above it and thus avoided getting caught in them. I saw single guys get separated from their groups and pounded/kicked on unmercifully by multiple attackers.

If you pull any type of weapon, it better be justified, and it better be to use it, not to brandish it. Virtually everyone's carrying SOMEthing nowadays, so no one's going to be impressed if you do.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I used to work security at a teen club. We dealt with exactly that kind of situation all the time. Having witnessed a doze of these types of attacks and stopped about a dozen, I have come to a few basic conclusion.

You get attacked when:
1. You look out of place from the neighborhood
2. Being alone
3. Looking like you can't defend yourself

If you get attacked the best thing to do is to stomp the leader and everyone else falls in line. Based on the video, those were all nothing but skinny punk kids. Any well trained adult man or woman should be able to stop that attack.

[Scott R. Brown]

I used to work security at a teen club. We dealt with exactly that kind of situation all the time. Having witnessed a doze of these types of attacks and stopped about a dozen, I have come to a few basic conclusion.

You get attacked when:
1. You look out of place from the neighborhood
2. Being alone
3. Looking like you can't defend yourself

If you get attacked the best thing to do is to stomp the leader and everyone else falls in line. Based on the video, those were all nothing but skinny punk kids. Any well trained adult man or woman should be able to stop that attack.

Exactly, take out the leader and/or the one with the mouth!

[xcakid]

Woman Assaulted by "Dozens" of Teens/Young Adults (http://www.jsonline.com/general/37714089.html?bcpid=23739055001&bctid=1038106097001)

How do you defend against something like this: A group of people who decide to lash out at strangers for the hell of it?

All the Kung Fu/MMA/Sanda/Karate/Krav Maga in the world won't save you from 12+ people bent on beating the dog sh!t out of you.

Obviously, situational awareness and avoiding known bad areas is the first line of good self defense, but what happens if you're at a social event like a downtown festival, outdoor concert, sporting event, ect... and this crap happens?

Similar situations have occurred in Chicago (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/124629279.html), Charlotte (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/05/30/2337890/uptown-chaos-leaves-1-dead.html), and Philadelphia (http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-27/news/29707961_1_twitter-users-mob-trash-cans)

How can you REALISTICALLY protect yourself and your family from stuff like this?

Guns/Weapons?

Run Like he11?

Turtle-up and hope help arrives?

I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and I want to know what you guys think.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner


Well according the MMA guys, whos art is the latest and greatest, you take em down do a kimura or ground and pound on them....... :p


Me personally, use MA to gain space, pull out gun and start firing at the next person that comes at me. Keep firing and moving until I get taken down or they run. After that call lawyer, then the cops. Next day, call a therapist.

When I was college age and also my time in the military, I have never seen a one on one fight that stayed that way. Even seen a guy get stabbed as he walked out of a party to "take it outside". He was following the guy that called him out, while the guy that called him out buddy was waiting by the door. As soon as he walked past, he got stabbed and the two guys ran. Point I am trying to make it, you need to take every advantage you can on your side. From understanding the situation and stayng clear of it, to martial arts, to carrying a gun, to having people that have your back.

[Scott R. Brown]

Excellent thought!

I went to high school with a guy who was asked to "take it outside" and once they got outside he pulled a straight razor and slit the guy's throat!

[Snipsky]

Keep firing and moving until I get taken down or they run.

I'd hope you'd empty the clip first. if you get taken down and the gun still has bullets you're fukked.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Exactly, take out the leader and/or the one with the mouth!

These are just kids. This isn't a prison fight to the death against 12 hardened convicts. The idea that one needs to just take a beating is preposterous in this situation. If it were a prison fight, better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Although, if you give up in a prison situation, chances are, you are dead.

[Scott R. Brown]

These are just kids. This isn't a prison fight to the death against 12 hardened convicts. The idea that one needs to just take a beating is preposterous in this situation. If it were a prison fight, better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Although, if you give up in a prison situation, chances are, you are dead.

LOL! Hold on! I am not saying kill him, you take out the leader and the pack tends to quit. In a group like that you either give up, run or have a good strategy. The mouth motivates and the leader compels, take one or the other or both out and it is likely the group will stop, but it is not a sure thing!

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL! Hold on! I am not saying kill him, you take out the leader and the pack tends to quit. In a group like that you either give up, run or have a good strategy. The mouth motivates and the leader compels, take one or the other or both out and it is likely the group will stop, but it is not a sure thing!

I think that we have a misunderstanding somewhere. I am not advocating hurting those kids. I was just suggesting putting the head kid on his butt or embarrassing him a bit. A nice throw or arm lock can be enough.

[Scott R. Brown]

I think that we have a misunderstanding somewhere. I am not advocating hurting those kids. I was just suggesting putting the head kid on his butt or embarrassing him a bit. A nice throw or arm lock can be enough.

Not with a mob! While you are doing that someone will take advantage of your blind spot! I don't care if they are kids, once they are a mob, they are a deadly weapon intent on doing you bodily harm! That's makes them fair game for the same!

[TAO YIN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srTiP71Jz3k

:D

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Well, I am having a hard time with this one...Shotgun? Mace? bullwhip coated with glued glass and metal shards? Claymore?

I guess that a good katana would do some good in a mob situation. Then again, I've also seen firecrackers work.

[Violent Designs]

Having a pair of trained German Shepards might do the job.

[TAO YIN]

I wasn't thinking clearly about this. Here is a good answer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE

Or well, tear gas...

[Zenshiite]

See, I don't think a gun (or any weapon really) is a viable option.

A gun COULD work, but you'd have to deploy it and I feel like people seriously overestimate how quickly they can draw their weapon.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with Gene, but he makes a good point.

Though I think there are ways you can prepare yourself mentally for such a situation.

This is a good post right here. If we are talking guns, we are talking concealed carry. Belly bands are not quick draw. Hell, **** near anything for conceal carry doesn't really lend itself to quick drawing in those kinds of situations.

You know, living in the Philadelphia area I'm so glad I don't go to the city often and rarely with the whole family and when we do we tend to avoid the most popular areas. While I might go to a vegan pizza shop near South Street, I don't go to South Street. In this town "flash mob" has a completely different connotation because some kids have taken the idea and turned it into a flash mob rumble.

[donjitsu2]

In this town "flash mob" has a completely different connotation because some kids have taken the idea and turned it into a flash mob rumble.


I noticed the media has been referring to these incidents as "flash mobs".

I've always thought a flash mob was more of type of random performance with a large group of people in a public place.

Apparently these people are using smart phones and social media to get the word out about their plans.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometimes one-on-one is hard enough, much less multiples.
I have gone 3 on 1 and 4 on 1, but in the environment of a club the numbers can work against them.
I have found that the great equalizer ( to HELP YOU GET THE **** OUT) is footwork AND "KO power".
That said, when the numbers are great, hit and run is the only option.
And if you can't run, well...no harm in taking as much of them with you as you can.

One thing though and I saw this happen and it stuck with me:
One of our bouncers got into trouble outside and when I got there he was on the ground and about 5 guys were kicking at him.
As we cleared the group ( putting it nicely) we noticed that there were 6, the 6th being on the ground and in the bouncers guard - he had been using him as a shield of sorts ( as best he could).

[JamesC]

Sometimes one-on-one is hard enough, much less multiples.
I have gone 3 on 1 and 4 on 1, but in the environment of a club the numbers can work against them.
I have found that the great equalizer ( to HELP YOU GET THE **** OUT) is footwork AND "KO power".
That said, when the numbers are great, hit and run is the only option.
And if you can't run, well...no harm in taking as much of them with you as you can.

One thing though and I saw this happen and it stuck with me:
One of our bouncers got into trouble outside and when I got there he was on the ground and about 5 guys were kicking at him.
As we cleared the group ( putting it nicely) we noticed that there were 6, the 6th being on the ground and in the bouncers guard - he had been using him as a shield of sorts ( as best he could).

That is awesome.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is awesome.

Well, when you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat, right?

[Lokhopkuen]

Excellent thought!

I went to high school with a guy who was asked to "take it outside" and once they got outside he pulled a straight razor and slit the guy's throat!

I'll bet he went far:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll bet he went far:rolleyes:

Straight to prison, I think for life!

It was over 30 years ago now!

[ManilaCrane]

I think Jackie Chan has given you the answer in the movie, The Karate Kid. lmao

[HumbleWCGuy]

Not with a mob! While you are doing that someone will take advantage of your blind spot! I don't care if they are kids, once they are a mob, they are a deadly weapon intent on doing you bodily harm! That's makes them fair game for the same!

Possibly, but when I am dealing with kids, I would rather take more of a risk. I would have to feel as though I were truly in trouble before I would respond with any real force. What I saw on the video was a group of kids. If I were dealing with men. I would take a completely different approach (assuming that I couldn't just run).

I worked security where we had to deal with gangs beating up other club patrons. The key was to apprehend the leaders which was typically the kid landing the first blow. I agree that there is more of a risk going my route if the only option is to fight, but I would rather do that than seriously hurt a kid. Although, a solid arm lock or a good through isn't exactly a walk in the park when executed by a man on a boy.

[Scott R. Brown]

I would say that grabbing the leader is pretty much the same principle.

In your circumstance you are trying to avoid escalating a situation that has not gotten out of control yet!

Even if it does, as security, you have different responsibilities!

The problem with a mob is that because you are surrounded there willl always be a blind side unless you can break the circle. Because of your blind side you are constantly in a vulnerable position, you may not have time to piddle around being nice. The longer you piddle the longer you are vulnerable.