Training chin na

[KC Elbows]

Three of us were working on chin na last night, and a question occured to me. When practicing chin na, a lot of people have trouble getting the techniques to apply on me, as my wrists are extremely flexible. They are always waiting for me to tap, and it never comes. Mind you, the techniques, when done properly, still put me in a disadvantaguous position, but I hardly ever feel any level of discomfort. Sometimes, people even fudge the technique in an attempt to cause me pain instead of applying the chin na. What advice would you give these guys?

Also, the only people I seem to have trouble applying wrist techniques to are big guys with really thick wrists. What's your advice on this?

[Jaguar Wong]

If you're having trouble getting the lock to work, that could be either your technique, or the other guy is just using his strength to stop you (maybe without realizing it, maybe for ego) before you can apply the lock fully to use leverage to your advantage. Chin na shouldn't be used in an actual situation by just grabbing and twisting the wrist, but if you're practicing it, that's how you get good at the technical points of it all.

If your partner is resisting on purpose, just do a quick, light little slap across the cheek in the direction you're flowing to, and I guarantee you'll have a much better chance at applying the lock before he can resist. :)

As for your flexibility. The locks don't work so well if you're only attacking one joint in one direction, because you can easily use your whole body's flexibility to ease the pressure. The key is to lock the hips somehow, so they can't bridge, step, twist, pull, or push to escape. You can help them realize this by pointing little things out that you're trying to do, like how you're moving your waist in response to the lock.

I know a lot of flexible guys that the locks don't work so well on, but once the lock brings them down, it's much easier to move the joint beyond it's comfort range :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[shaolinboxer]

If you try to lock someone who is loose and cannot, you are missing (as in passing by) the point of the technique at which the control occurs. Try slowing down and being more precise.

For guys with tree trunks for wrists, precision and patience is also the key. Do not try to manipulate them with you hands and arms. Rather, try to let leverage and body postion to do the work for you.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I'd say that if they are having problem locking you up that they are doing the technique incorrect.

You may be flexible but when a joint lock is properly imlemented only strech fantasic should be able to withstand it.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[Jaguar Wong]

Lyle makes a good point. Keep your elbows in/down, and your shoulders sunk/heavy, but keep your back straight, so you're using your body/waist to power the technique. A good grip strength always helps (because you still have to hold on, and manipulate their limbs), but it's better to get the finer points down first, then add god-like hand/wrist strength ;)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Crimson Phoenix]

I guess there are no advices: either their technique is perfectible and that's why you don't feel the pain like you should, either you're one of these guys on who one or a couple of qinnas won't work like they should...as you mentionned, indeed you are put in a disadvantageous or incomfortable position, but as Dr Yang told us during one of his qinna seminars "no qinna works all the time, even if your technique is perfect it happens that your opponent will never feel any pain on a particular or even a couple of qinna".
He then told us that was the reason of his emphasis on positioning, for example on a wrist qinna we had to turn to the side and step back one leg. We were all wondering why he was emphasizing that particular thing so much, when he told us "imagine on the battlefield your qinna doesn't work on this particular opponent, you don't have the choice" and then he performed a ball-foot kick to the sternum from the stance he told us to adopt. He then told us that EVERY qinna has a back-up strike in their execution, just in case your opponent doesn't react.
That was a nice teaching...I myself have a partner who is totally insensitive to a particular qinna to the shoulder...he's flexible, but not incredibly flexible, and he's sensitive to other kinds of shoulder locks, but this particular one never works on him...pretty funny, anatomy is a strange thing...
I hope my little stories interested you!!

[mantis108]

CMA as it is, should have a flow. Although, a lot of people think of Chin Na as pain compliance tech., which it can be, it is mostly an aspect, a phrase if you will, of the attack. IMHO, when using Chin Na, pain compliance is more a distraction to acheive your real goal which is either a submission or a knock out. People often equates joint locking with joint displacing. They are both aimed at disabling a limb but they are in essence different. Joint locking is basically trapping; whereas join displacing is defanging. The degree of discomfort is very different. This point should be made clear by the instructor. The general rule of thumb for me is a 2 second count . Thousand one - Thousand two - Change to different tech. or target. There are a few lock flow drills out there learn them well and use them to develop the Chin Na attributes.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[shaolinboxer]

Wrist and grip strength are helpful. However, I thinks it is important to work away from relying on such strength.

I have a fairly strong grip and I'm trying to learn how not to use it.

[KC Elbows]

Jaguar:
Right on the money with the waist thing. Also the slap thing: we do that quite often when our partner resists, gets their mind off of resisting for long enough to lock in. Generally, I'm not resisting them, but it is a very valid way to get around a partner that is. As far as getting in position, it is true that once us flexible guys are locked in, we're good and locked in, but on certain locks, I can be perfectly locked in by someone, and not be the least bit uncomfortable. Every teacher I've ever had would comment on this, but they also pointed out that, comfortable or no, I'm still a pretzel.

Lyle-
Good advice on tree trunks.

Johnny-
I guarantee you, there are a small number of locks that can lock me in perfectly well, but short of ballistic force being applied, I don't hurt from them. Nothing I do, just a trick of birth. Anyway, wrist wise, I am stretch fantastic. :D

[KC Elbows]

Crimson-
Good advice. My teacher once attended one of Jeff Bolt's seminars on chin na, and his advice is very similar.

Mantis-
I think a lot of problems come because even chin nas that really aren't primarily about causing pain cause them pain, and so they think they must be doing it wrong if I'm not cringing, so they try modifying it all, and loose track of the technique.


Lyle and Jaguar-
Most of our guys have good grip strength(they are all single, so there's free time and a lot of frustration, I think :D ), but some are newer to kung fu, and don't really understand flow yet.

Good points, guys.

[Jaguar Wong]

:) If you're imobilized by the lock, then it's working ;)

As for the "kung fu grip", like Lyle said, don't rely on it. If you can do the technique correctly, the strength will help immensely, but if you rely on just the strength, then your stuff won't work on stronger guys.

I also like Mantis108's flow suggestion, but if you're practicing a certain lock then it's just not as helpful in a learning situation. That flow is what I'm still trying so hard to develop. I have a hard time switching locks when the first one doesn't work. I don't have a hard time dropping back, or striking (releasing the lock), but I just can't seem to flow to another one. Of course my Chin na is weak compared to....well almost everyone :)

I also found out that a lock that may seem to work on a lot of people will build a false sense of security for you. I've been doing a lock that I've liked for a while now, and not too long ago (less than a year ago) a wrestler that I was showing the lock to, kind of gave me a wake up call. I asked him if there was anything that he could see that I wasn't looking for, so when I applied the lock (I had it on there pretty good, but I didn't keep his hips in check), he dropped, spun out, and shot in for a single leg (I was still holding his other arm, so it was a one handed single). I thought that was really cool, so I immediately started looking for how to prevent that. I'll let you know when I find it :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx