Nice Chinna Vid

[ShaolinDan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK8qOXmzNY8&feature=player_detailpage

I think this (originally posted by YiQuanOne :p) is a nice chinna video. Even though it's not against a resisting (well, he resists a tiny bit) opponent, I think it shows a lot about how chinna can be applied in combat. --I know there are some folks out there with questions about that ;), hope this helps clarify at least a little.

[faxiapreta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK8qOXmzNY8&feature=player_detailpage

I think this (originally posted by YiQuanOne :p) is a nice chinna video. Even though it's not against a resisting (well, he resists a tiny bit) opponent, I think it shows a lot about how chinna can be applied in combat. --I know there are some folks out there with questions about that ;), hope this helps clarify at least a little.

More b.s.

But feel free to go into any grappling tourney and see how it doesn't work like that.

[Grumblegeezer]

Fax, dude! You are so negative. Chin na is outside my realm of knowledge, but it sure looks like a grappler could use stuff like that outside of competition to really put some extra hurt on a guy. Trouble is it's not safe to use in competition. Still, everyone has an extra bag of dirty tricks. What's wrong with adding some more nasty stuff to that bag?

[lkfmdc]

not a chin na video (it says 'push hands' in Chinese) and most of it has nothing to do with any sort of joint lock?

[SPJ]

2 points

1. use straightness to over come horizontal methods and vice versa

zhi po heng, or heng po zhi.

if the opponent pushes your shoulder (straight, zhi), you bend his wrist (horizontal, heng)

2. use circles to harmonize/neutralize between straightness and horizontal methods.

circling downward, circling upward

so we cover everything

forward/backward (straight)

to the left and to the right (horizontal)

upward and downward (circling)

we remain contact or stick and link

---

[MightyB]

Good drill and the right way to go about training chin na with push hands. Plus a healthy blend of strikes.

to give you TCMA haters some perspective - this is a chin na / push hands equivalent of grip fighting training... and IMO this is a better way to train for real chin na - gripping, pulling, with motion added for fluidity.

[lkfmdc]

still don't see much "chin na" here? it's all pushing ie pummeling

[ShaolinDan]

still don't see much "chin na" here? it's all pushing ie pummeling

You either aren't looking very closely, or you're looking for the wrong thing; chinna is more than just static locks.

[lkfmdc]

You either aren't looking very closely, or you're looking for the wrong thing; chinna is more than just static locks.

Do you read Chinese? It doesn't say "chin na" is says "push hands"

China Na is joint locking, not push hands
"static" or not this is pushing it is not locking joints

Maybe you are the one who is confused? :rolleyes:

[ShaolinDan]

Wow, dude. I don't read Chinese, but I can see it's push hands-ish. I can also see chinna being used in just about every single technique.
Guess we were taught differently what chinna means...far as I know it doesn't mean 'lock' at all.

[lkfmdc]

what do I know, I mean other than the almost 3 decades I have spent in TCMA and the formal adoption under a famous sifu and the other sifu I've worked with :rolleyes:

This is not a demonstration of "chin na" it is a demonstration of "tui shou" push hands.

大成拳推手

They are different (though related) skills. Again, what is being shown here is a lot more akin to "pummeling" which is why it is impressive, ie it is stuff that would , gasp!, WORK

But again, this isn't "chin na"

it is 推手

[Dragonzbane76]

learn same basic concepts in HS wrestling programs except in wrestling its used in an environment of resistance with full range of motion and not static like in this vid.

People get to wrapped up on the "chin na" wagon IMO. Nothing special about it and it's not grappling. Plus this doesn't strike me as "chin na" in the sense I know, more push hands.

[ShaolinDan]

There are a few wrist locks. There are manipulations of wrist, elbow, and shoulder joint. There are grabs, yin-yang grabs, and pulling. There is pressure point striking/pressing. There is grabbing the throat.

All of that is chinna. At least in my education. :)

[lkfmdc]

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."

today is dedicated to this quote

[ShaolinDan]

Well, that's a nice thing to say. ;)

I have nothing left to say. Obviously we have different definitions of chinna. Which would explain why we have different ideas of its efficacy. No real disagreement at all, except over words...no big deal. Glad at least that you thought the stuff in the video was decent.

Nice chatting. Got to go for a while now. :)

[YiQuanOne]

There are some joint pressure moves, but the guys let's them go and moves on, it is friendly display of skill, he is not looking for a tap out, or trying to hurt the other guy.

Nice display of control and skill.

There are two other short videos of the guy doing kind of a YiQuan slow to medium speed set.

Definitely an internal guy.

[faxiapreta]

There are a few wrist locks. There are manipulations of wrist, elbow, and shoulder joint. There are grabs, yin-yang grabs, and pulling. There is pressure point striking/pressing. There is grabbing the throat.

All of that is chinna. At least in my education. :)

And guess what? Those wrist locks are a big part of what makes that demo a bunch of b.s.

[faxiapreta]

Fax, dude! You are so negative. Chin na is outside my realm of knowledge, but it sure looks like a grappler could use stuff like that outside of competition to really put some extra hurt on a guy. Trouble is it's not safe to use in competition. Still, everyone has an extra bag of dirty tricks. What's wrong with adding some more nasty stuff to that bag?

Um, hello!!?? You can use all that (except for strikes) in any submission grappling tourney.

Like I said go to a submission grappling tourney and see what happens. A lot of the stuff shown there will get you put on your @ss.

[faxiapreta]

learn same basic concepts in HS wrestling programs except in wrestling its used in an environment of resistance with full range of motion and not static like in this vid.

Which are more reasons why this clip is b.s.

[faxiapreta]

There are a few wrist locks. There are manipulations of wrist, elbow, and shoulder joint. There are grabs, yin-yang grabs, and pulling. There is pressure point striking/pressing. There is grabbing the throat.

See the bolded above. That is the only part of the clip that is not b.s. And even most of those would be shut down by most high school wrestlers.

[faxiapreta]

Well, that's a nice thing to say. ;)

I have nothing left to say. Obviously we have different definitions of chinna. Which would explain why we have different ideas of its efficacy. No real disagreement at all, except over words...no big deal. Glad at least that you thought the stuff in the video was decent.


The stuff in the clip was not decent.

[faxiapreta]

They are different (though related) skills. Again, what is being shown here is a lot more akin to "pummeling" which is why it is impressive, ie it is stuff that would , gasp!, WORK


Except they left out any kind of shoulder control and over wraps, which is another reason it is b.s.

[ShaolinDan]

Nice trolling Fax. Keep up the good work. It's slow on the weekend, I'm sure you'll catch something tomorrow. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Wait!

It can't be chin na or have chin na in it because that isn't what the label says?

There are a few wrist and elbow movements that ARE related to chin na movements!

Does that make it a chin na vid?

I guess it is a matter of perspective!

It isn't strict chin na, but has some chin na related movements.

Call it push hands with some wrist and elbow locks/attacks then!:rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

Does that make it a chin na vid?

I guess it is a matter of perspective!

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

[faxiapreta]

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

This one is rehearsed, which makes it even more unrealistic.

[SPJ]

I like the passing 3 guards with left and right hand in turn

or climbing the arms.

1. wrist

2. above the elbow

3. shoulder

i also like the strikes

1. wrist

2. elbow

3. shoulder

once you pass shoulder guard, you may reach the neck

--

[SPJ]

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

yes

it shows moves and counter moves.

even thou, each move is the end move or na fa.

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gotta be careful of those useless standing joint locks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

As usual its is HOW and WHEN a technique is done that make sit effective.

[lkfmdc]

Gotta be careful of those useless standing joint locks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

As usual its is HOW and WHEN a technique is done that make sit effective.

That version of arm bar (I am tempted to say "waki gatame" but not sure?) was legal in Judo for years and while low percentage, did work ... I would also say you'd probably find more examples IN GI because the Gi makes it easier to pull off

[sanjuro_ronin]

That version of arm bar (I am tempted to say "waki gatame" but not sure?) was legal in Judo for years and while low percentage, did work ... I would also say you'd probably find more examples IN GI because the Gi makes it easier to pull off

Waki gatame is correct :)
It was one of the arm locks that I always had some concern with because it always seemed that, fro it to work, it hard to dislocate.
It had to be done in such a way that it would dislocate - explosively for lack of a better word.
I have used arm and wrist locks while bouncing, as have many other bouncers of course and LEO's and, typiclaly, they work best when you have numerical superiority and by best I mean without having to dislocate anything.
That said, it seems to me for standing locks to work 1-on-1 they have to be "breaks" rather than locks.
I have used the waki and the kote and the ikky and sankyo locks and for them to be effective 1-on-1 they have to go fast and hard and that usally means a dislocation.

[lkfmdc]

It was one of the arm locks that I always had some concern with because it always seemed that, fro it to work, it had to dislocate.



This is the rationale behind making it illegal

My friend, a judo coach, had his arm broken BADLY from this arm lock, back in "the old days"




I have used arm and wrist locks while bouncing, as have many other bouncers of course and LEO's and, typiclaly, they work best when you have numerical superiority and by best I mean without having to dislocate anything.



locks definitely have LEO application, Gene LeBell taught the LAPD a number of "time holds" for this purpose

in summary, a few do work, not high percentage, and certainly a lot of the so called "chin na" clips are still trash :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the rationale behind making it illegal

My friend, a judo coach, had his arm broken BADLY from this arm lock, back in "the old days"



locks definitely have LEO application, Gene LeBell taught the LAPD a number of "time holds" for this purpose

in summary, a few do work, not high percentage, and certainly a lot of the so called "chin na" clips are still trash :D

Agreed.
Standing locks, IMO, have to be done under these circumstances to be effective:
Against grabs and attempted grabs and NOT strikes.
Off the clinch or attempted clinch.
UBER FAST
In a position that doesn't leave you TOO open to strikes from the free hand.
You have to be open to "releasing" the lock the moment it doesn't work.

I recall at a Lebell seminar he put a few grapplers in their place with standing locks so the other factor would be SUPERIOUR skill.

[Scott R. Brown]

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

Much more dynamic and a wider range of techniques. I liked both vids though.


This one is rehearsed, which makes it even more unrealistic.

Its a FORM!!!!!!

That means it is for practicing the movements!

[lkfmdc]

Its a FORM!!!!!!

That means it is for practicing the movements!

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE

[faxiapreta]

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE

Also notice the shoulder and head control, of which you saw none of in the other b.s. clips above.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE

Well, the first concern would be safety and the second would be technical learning, BUT when those issues are resolved there really isn't any reason to NOT practice in a way that BEST simulated how it WILL HAVE to be done "for real".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE

LOL !
There was more internal on that clip then we see in hours of IMA seminars !!!

[faxiapreta]

Gotta be careful of those useless standing joint locks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

As usual its is HOW and WHEN a technique is done that make sit effective.

Do they work? Sure, but accidentally to the main goal which is positioning and takedowns.

There is a reason you rarely see them and it's not because they are too dangerous to use.

[faxiapreta]

I recall at a Lebell seminar he put a few grapplers in their place with standing locks so the other factor would be SUPERIOUR skill.

This was a seminar with guys letting him apply the holds. That's lightyears away from actually countering and resisting.

Lebell once fought a boxer full contact. How did he beat him? With standing joint locks which would have been the easiest? Nope. On the ground.

Lebell also coaches guys who compete in sub grappling and MMA. How do they win their matches? With standing locks, which would be easiest? Nope again.

[faxiapreta]

Its a FORM!!!!!!

That means it is for practicing the movements!

It's FORM!!!!!!

Which leads to practicing the movements in unrealistic manners as you can see in the clip!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do they work? Sure, but accidentally to the main goal which is positioning and takedowns.

There is a reason you rarely see them and it's not because they are too dangerous to use.

Neither one of those were "accidental".
The both applied the locks and did it in a way they KNEW would be effective.
The first one lead to a TD but the second didn't and it was almost picture perfect of how it is applied for it to be applied with TD in mind.
Pretty much any standing joint lock can and should lead to a "throw" but they are not applied with throwing as the primary intent.
Not sure what videos you were seeing there...

[faxiapreta]

Neither one of those were "accidental".
The both applied the locks and did it in a way they KNEW would be effective.
The first one lead to a TD but the second didn't and it was almost picture perfect of how it is applied for it to be applied with TD in mind.
Pretty much any standing joint lock can and should lead to a "throw" but they are not applied with throwing as the primary intent.
Not sure what videos you were seeing there...

OK, let me change my term from accidental to incidental and extremely low percentage.

Again, there's a reason they are so rare and it's not because people aren't trying to hurt each other.

Practicing standing locks is exactly the type of approach the traditional jiu jitsu guys took which was proven to be so ineffective by Kano.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE

Apparently, not everyone understands that the best training methods are those that are as close to realistic circumstances as possible!

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, let me change my term from accidental to incidental and extremely low percentage.

Again, there's a reason they are so rare and it's not because people aren't trying to hurt each other.

Agreed, low percentage for a variety of reasons.
I didn't mean to imply that people don't use them because they are too dangerous.
I just meant that for them to be used effectively they seem to have to be done to "dislocate" rather than "lock".
The reason being that, while on the ground the opponent has less mobility and as such the lock can be applied in a more progressive manner, standing it has to be more "ballistic".

[Scott R. Brown]

....standing it has to be more "ballistic".

I prefer the word dynamic, but I know what you mean!

[lkfmdc]

LOL !
There was more internal on that clip then we see in hours of IMA seminars !!!

I recently had the pleasure of training with Coach Nelson, great stuff

[lkfmdc]

I must not have had my coffee, because I am not understanding scott at all today? :confused:

[Scott R. Brown]

I must not have had my coffee, because I am not understanding scott at all today? :confused:

Maybe you have confused my enjoyment of the two chin na vids with approval of them as a training method. The vid you posted is closer to real life, therefore it must be considered of more practical benefit in dealing with real life circumstances!

I agree with you, but perhaps you thought I was on the other side of the fence!:p;)

[faxiapreta]

Agreed, low percentage for a variety of reasons.
I didn't mean to imply that people don't use them because they are too dangerous.
I just meant that for them to be used effectively they seem to have to be done to "dislocate" rather than "lock".
The reason being that, while on the ground the opponent has less mobility and as such the lock can be applied in a more progressive manner, standing it has to be more "ballistic".

It has nothing to do with how balistically the arm bar is applied and everything to do with how much time the opponent has to tap. On the ground the opponent is immobilized and knows he has to tap as the joint lock is applied. Standing the opponent is usually continuing to jockey for position because he is not immobilized

[sanjuro_ronin]

I prefer the word dynamic, but I know what you mean!

Yes, that's a far better word.

[SimonM]

not a chin na video (it says 'push hands' in Chinese) and most of it has nothing to do with any sort of joint lock?

I was about to say the same thing.

But also, as with a lot of the stuff coming out of YiquanOne the demonstrator here has major issues with elbow positioning. The way he splays his elbows out like that he's just begging for a good grappler to take complete control of one of his arms, probably transition to back control.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It has nothing to do with how balistically the arm bar is applied and everything to do with how much time the opponent has to tap. On the ground the opponent is immobilized and knows he has to tap as the joint lock is applied. Standing the opponent is usually continuing to jockey for position because he is not immobilized

Did you even see the 2nd clip I posted?
I am not sure why you are even arguing this, it seems like you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.
To say that the effectiveness of a standing lock ( or almost any standing techniaue for that matter) doesn't have to do with how dynamic it is applied, just makes me question YOUR MA experience.
No offense but you are just being argumentative.

[lkfmdc]

Maybe you have confused my enjoyment of the two chin na vids with approval of them as a training method. The vid you posted is closer to real life, therefore it must be considered of more practical benefit in dealing with real life circumstances!

I agree with you, but perhaps you thought I was on the other side of the fence!:p;)

ok, got it now, not my day apparently? :p

[lkfmdc]

But also, as with a lot of the stuff coming out of YiquanOne the demonstrator here has major issues with elbow positioning. The way he splays his elbows out like that he's just begging for a good grappler to take complete control of one of his arms, probably transition to back control.

he is basically pummeling for bicept control ("steering wheel") which is pretty darn unique for most TCMA clips, but he doesn't "keep the box" and anyone with a bit of wrestling could easily control him due to his lack of elbow control

a clip or two to be more clear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjhdayWgXWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5Ohe93Ep4

[Scott R. Brown]

ok, got it now, not my day apparently? :p

I dunno, I'll take half the responsibility. Sometimes when I go back and re-read what I have posted, I see a bit of an eccentric writing style that can appear unclear.

You know how it is, we always know what WE mean, and because of that we don't always recognize we are being unclear to others!

[YiQuanOne]

I don't know why you guys are trying to twist this video into two over muscled meat heads running into each other trying to show who is stronger is a demonstration of any kind of skill.

Those videos just looks like rockem sockem robots. No one having anykind of root or stability. Is that why they always go to the ground so much because they don't have good balance.

Wrestling is a sport, where size and weight and muscle are the prime factors, if you see the video the old guy is not trying to over power the younger bigger guy.

Also the bozo guys that say it looks like he does this wrong and that wrong, you guys are clueless. Ya, if the old man tried to fight you with his strength you could do those stupid moves ,and also if he just stood there like a dumb monkey and did not react then those dumb wrestling moves might work.

I can see most of you guys have never met a guy with skill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know why you guys are trying to twist this video into two over muscled meat heads running into each other trying to show who is stronger is a demonstration of any kind of skill.

Those videos just looks like rockem sockem robots. No one having anykind of root or stability. Is that why they always go to the ground so much because they don't have good balance.

Wrestling is a sport, where size and weight and muscle are the prime factors, if you see the video the old guy is not trying to over power the younger bigger guy.

Also the bozo guys that say it looks like he does this wrong and that wrong, you guys are clueless. Ya, if the old man tried to fight you with his strength you could do those stupid moves ,and also if he just stood there like a dumb monkey and did not react then those dumb wrestling moves might work.

I can see most of you guys have never met a guy with skill.



See, now THIS is good trolling !!

[Scott R. Brown]

See, not THIS is good trolling !!

Now THAT is structure sentence unclear!:confused:

[YouKnowWho]

dumb wrestling moves ... I can see most of you guys have never met a guy with skill.

Quote of the day.

[MightyB]

I still stand by my original post and say that I liked what I seen the old guy doing in the original vid. Reminded me of grip fighting drills from Judo and wrist control drills from wrestling except that it was an old TCMAer doing it. Plus he flowed nicely from locks to strikes.

[lkfmdc]

I still stand by my original post and say that I liked what I seen the old guy doing in the original vid. Reminded me of grip fighting drills from Judo and wrist control drills from wrestling except that it was an old TCMAer doing it. Plus he flowed nicely from locks to strikes.

It was ok, it benefits in comparison to all the so called TCMA crap out there. There is nothing there that screams "CRAP"! But there are certainly things that could be improved upon

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now THAT is structure sentence unclear!:confused:

bBBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!!!
:D:D:D:confused::confused::p:mad::mad::mad:

[Scott R. Brown]

See, not THIS is good trolling !!


Now THAT is structure sentence unclear!:confused:


bBBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!!!
:D:D:D:confused::confused::p:mad:......

I fixed it back for you!:p

It's okay boo boo! I KNOW you meant "See, NOW..."

I do it all the time myself. I tend to type "not" instead of "no"!

but isn't it interesting how one letter can change a whole sentence! And that is what I meant about myself structure and sentence strange!:eek:

[IronWeasel]

Scott,
The obvious question would be, why practice techniques in such a static, dead way as opposed to doing it in an alive way that is more realistic

such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWQ4fVbcxE



This is a good clip.

Thanks :)

[faxiapreta]

Did you even see the 2nd clip I posted?
I am not sure why you are even arguing this, it seems like you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.
To say that the effectiveness of a standing lock ( or almost any standing techniaue for that matter) doesn't have to do with how dynamic it is applied, just makes me question YOUR MA experience.
No offense but you are just being argumentative.

Yes, I saw the second clip. If you think arm locks on the ground are not just as ballistic/dynamic I really have to question YOUR MA experience.

Go do some tourneys with some ground submissions and then come back and tell me that they are not applied ballistically.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I saw the second clip. If you think arm locks on the ground are not just as ballistic/dynamic I really have to question YOUR MA experience.

Go do some tourneys with some ground submissions and then come back and tell me that they are not applied ballistically.

Yep, argumentative just to be that way.
Keep it up and you won't be long here.

[faxiapreta]

Yep, argumentative just to be that way.
Keep it up and you won't be long here.

Really? You are threatening to ban me because I disagree with you regarding the fact that arm locks on the ground are just as ballistic as those done standing?

Or maybe it's because I continually demonstrate your lack of MA knowledgel.

[KC Elbows]

Banning? BS. Watch no-gi tourneys, you will never see a ban, it's all about turtling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Really? You are threatening to ban me because I disagree with you regarding the fact that arm locks on the ground are just as ballistic as those done standing?

Or maybe it's because I continually demonstrate your lack of MA knowledgel.

Even my patience runs out and as anyone here will attest, that is say something about your apperant lack of understanding.
And since you have shown that you don't lack it, I assume you are being argumentative just for the sake of arguing, since it is clear to everyone else what is being discussed here.
In which case, yeah, eventually you will get banned because you are not serving any purpose but to derail and highjack threads just for the sake of arguing.

So, smarten up or you will find yourself banned.

[ShaolinDan]

I'm glad there's been some decent discussion here, at least.


Agreed with pretty much everything Sanjuro has said on this thread. :) A standing lock (as opposed to the ballistic break [actually ballistic is a better word than dynamic, I think, even a lock is dynamic...but not ballistic. :)]), is an act of mercy...it's not something you'd really use in a fight you were in danger of losing (unless it just happened to present itself).

I don't think this video is 'amazing,' but I do think it's pretty good. The reason I posted it is I think it gives a good sense of the 'dynamics' of chinna application. Instead of single locks done to completion, it shows transitions...not so many videos do this. (the form YKW posted also does...I enjoyed that) Obviously this is a problem, as lots of people who 'know their stuff' still seem to think chinna is just static standing locks. Chinna, like 'kung fu' has come to mean much more than it's translation, but basically, it means to 'seize and control.' If there's a grab, then it's chinna... No reason it can't also be push hands at the same time.

[faxiapreta]

Even my patience runs out and as anyone here will attest, that is say something about your apperant lack of understanding.
And since you have shown that you don't lack it, I assume you are being argumentative just for the sake of arguing, since it is clear to everyone else what is being discussed here.
In which case, yeah, eventually you will get banned because you are not serving any purpose but to derail and highjack threads just for the sake of arguing.

So, smarten up or you will find yourself banned.

Please point me to the part of the rules that say a person is not allowed to argue about things he disagrees with and that he finds to be b.s.

And, as an admin, are you allowed to "assume" that someone is being argumentative and ban him?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please point me to the part of the rules that say a person is not allowed to argue about things he disagrees with and that he finds to be b.s.

And, as an admin, are you allowed to "assume" that someone is being argumentative and ban him?

Fine, you make a valid point.
Just because I find you argumentative and and not able to grasp common sense that everyone else seems to understand, doesn't mean you don't have a right to express your view point.
Point taken.
It just seems to be a pattern with you ( arguing for what seems to be just for the sake of arguing) and I have had more complaints about that than I care to mention.

[David Jamieson]

The HAN flick was interesting. Obviously over choreographed, but that's an endemic problem in chinese martial arts.

Still, I saw lot's of interesting seizes and locks in it.

Did Han do kung fu for a whole day in that park and film it all? lol

every time i see clips of his school, it's the same park almost the same place in the park! :)

[faxiapreta]

Evidence for dynamic submissions on the ground:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nqumEuEJX4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYXbpFTqi8&feature=related

[faxiapreta]

More evidence that competitors on the ground are trying as hard as they can to break arms and that the only thing that saves the opponent is realizing he's in a no win situation and needs to tap and what happens when he (or she) doesn't tap in time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFDm9rrQl_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXkVCwCBfyM

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3bc_1208613792

[KC Elbows]

No one is really arguing against there being dynamic submissions on the ground. They're arguing that, in the low percentage use in standing, it's absolutely required.

If you're lonely, apply your own mantra, I'm sure you are familiar with where to find a high school wrestler who can easily defeat your brand of loneliness.

[IronWeasel]

Fine, you make a valid point.
Just because I find you argumentative and and not able to grasp common sense that everyone else seems to understand, doesn't mean you don't have a right to express your view point.
Point taken.
It just seems to be a pattern with you ( arguing for what seems to be just for the sake of arguing) and I have had more complaints about that than I care to mention.


He's not merely expressing a viewpoint.

He's being contentious for its own sake.

Ban...(again)

[faxiapreta]

He's not merely expressing a viewpoint.

He's being contentious for its own sake.

Ban...(again)

No, if I was being contentious for it's own sake, you would see me in almost all the threads. As it is I only post in threads in which I have an opinion, one way or the other.

Also, if I was being contentious simply for it's own sake I would start a bunch of threads also, which is something else I rarely do.

[YiQuanOne]

Maybe we need a handicap bulletin board for him!

Like the "Special Olympics" the "Special Kung Fu Forum"

[KC Elbows]

No, if I was being contentious for it's own sake, you would see me in almost all the threads. As it is I only post in threads in which I have an opinion, one way or the other.

Also, if I was being contentious simply for it's own sake I would start a bunch of threads also, which is something else I rarely do.

Or you might constantly argue things people aren't actually saying.

Or, you might make new handles for trolling forums, like a little kid.

Grow up, moron.

Oooh, I called you a name, go tell the mods, two-faced little prat!:D

[SPJ]

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

each move is the end move.

in order for show and tell

they were modified for safety

and transit into counter etc.

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

Or you might constantly argue things people aren't actually saying.

Or, you might make new handles for trolling forums, like a little kid.

Grow up, moron.

Oooh, I called you a name, go tell the mods, two-faced little prat!:D

prat? I think you mean sprot. :p

I mean if we're gonna use Englishman colloquialisms and all... :D

[YiQuanOne]

Compare to the folllowing Chin Na 2 men form, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

The difference is the first one is real live response,..... and the second one is two man choreographed dance.

If you don't know the difference between rehearsed and not rehearsed, what can we say!
"Special Kung Fu Forum" for you.

[David Jamieson]

The difference is the first one is real live response,..... and the second one is two man choreographed dance.

If you don't know the difference between rehearsed and not rehearsed, what can we say!
"Special Kung Fu Forum" for you.

Dude, his question is a learning opportunity for people, not a query.
Perhaps you need remedial reading comprehension? lol

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't know why you guys are trying to twist this video into two over muscled meat heads running into each other trying to show who is stronger is a demonstration of any kind of skill.

Those videos just looks like rockem sockem robots. No one having anykind of root or stability. Is that why they always go to the ground so much because they don't have good balance.

Wrestling is a sport, where size and weight and muscle are the prime factors, if you see the video the old guy is not trying to over power the younger bigger guy.

Also the bozo guys that say it looks like he does this wrong and that wrong, you guys are clueless. Ya, if the old man tried to fight you with his strength you could do those stupid moves ,and also if he just stood there like a dumb monkey and did not react then those dumb wrestling moves might work.

I can see most of you guys have never met a guy with skill.

haha really? lol. I can't express the stupidity of this statement.

wrestled for many years and I can say that weight plays a factor but skill plays a more front seat role. I've seen 150lbers take down guys around 300lbs with ease repeatedly. And it wasn't a match up of brawn and muscle. It was skill. If your going to comment on wrestling at least know WTF your talking about.

[KC Elbows]

prat? I think you mean sprot. :p

I mean if we're gonna use Englishman colloquialisms and all... :D

I do wish to be gentlemanly about it. Gentleman to manatee molester, in a sporting manner, obviously. Queensbury rules and all.

[YiQuanOne]

haha really? lol. I can't express the stupidity of this statement.

wrestled for many years and I can say that weight plays a factor but skill plays a more front seat role. I've seen 150lbers take down guys around 300lbs with ease repeatedly. And it wasn't a match up of brawn and muscle. It was skill. If your going to comment on wrestling at least know WTF your talking about.

Sorry, I forgot, tripping some one takes a lot of skill or making a kamikaze run at someone's legs by jumping in head first is a little more skillful too.

But it would be hard to teach the 300 lb guy that, but then would it still work for the 150 lb guy ?.

I have noticed that the strikers are winning more in the MMA fights.

[IronWeasel]

No, if I was being contentious for it's own sake, you would see me in almost all the threads. As it is I only post in threads in which I have an opinion, one way or the other.

Also, if I was being contentious simply for it's own sake I would start a bunch of threads also, which is something else I rarely do.



"Exhibit A"

[David Jamieson]

"Exhibit A"

B, C, D and E as well I would say with a cursory glance over the last few weeks...

[Dragonzbane76]

Sorry, I forgot, tripping some one takes a lot of skill or making a kamikaze run at someone's legs by jumping in head first is a little more skillful too.

yes and playing patty cake with someone is real skill. Oh I forgot you have to wear your pajama's while doing it. We all know that takes certain "fortitude". :rolleyes: Jump off you high horse for a moment.

And were in the wrestling book of idioms does "kamikazi" football tackle get taught?

crude attempts to troll at something you know nothing about.

[YiQuanOne]

Dude, his question is a learning opportunity for people, not a query.
Perhaps you need remedial reading comprehension? lol

What's the learning opportunity?

[lkfmdc]

trolls aren't exclusive to "one side" you know

in this very thread we've got a LARP'er AND an MMA knucklehead :D

[YouKnowWho]

The difference is the first one is real live response,..... and the second one is two man choreographed dance.

If you don't know the difference between rehearsed and not rehearsed, what can we say!
"Special Kung Fu Forum" for you.

Do you guys know the difference between "training" and "testing"?

When you

- train solo move, your opponent will give you chance and not resist against you.
- train combo, your opponent will resiste against your 1st move so you can borrow his force and apply your 2nd move.
- test your skill, your opponent will not give you any chance but to resist against you from the beginning all the way toward the end.

[YiQuanOne]

Do you guys know the difference between "training" and "testing"?

When you

- train solo move, your opponent will give you chance and not resist against you.
- train combo, your opponent will resiste against your 1st move so you can borrow his force and apply your 2nd move.
- test your skill, your opponent will not give you any chance but to resist against you from the beginning all the way toward the end.

Thanks, I am not that familar with those two people set sequences the way those guys were doing them.

[Lucas]

trolls aren't exclusive to "one side" you know

in this very thread we've got a LARP'er AND an MMA knucklehead :D

the most beautiful is when the trolls troll on each other though. thats my favorite part.

[lkfmdc]

the most beautiful is when the trolls troll on each other though. thats my favorite part.

it looks something like this

http://www.wild-photographer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/what-you-looking-at.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one is really arguing against there being dynamic submissions on the ground. They're arguing that, in the low percentage use in standing, it's absolutely required.

If you're lonely, apply your own mantra, I'm sure you are familiar with where to find a high school wrestler who can easily defeat your brand of loneliness.

You'd think that since it was said over and over that it would be understood, but evidently not.
Not going bother and I don;'t think you should either.

[lkfmdc]

You'd think that since it was said over and over that it would be understood, but evidently not.
Not going bother and I don;'t think you should either.

Unfortunately, we are trapped in a forum full of extremes. On one side the "kung fu LARP'er" and on the other the MMA knucklehead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unfortunately, we are trapped in a forum full of extremes. On one side the "kung fu LARP'er" and on the other the MMA knucklehead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q

You know what Bro, you have hit the nail on the head on that one.
And as much as one tries to be the "moderate position" and see the good in it ALL, the extremes are, like in everything else, what test our patience.

It's like dealing with fundamentalist religious fanatics on one side and militant atheists on the other !

[KC Elbows]

You'd think that since it was said over and over that it would be understood, but evidently not.
Not going bother and I don;'t think you should either.

Being sensible would undermine my entire posting history.

[lkfmdc]

And as much as one tries to be the "moderate position" and see the good in it ALL,



nah! they BOTH SUCK :p

[SPJ]

Being sensible would undermine my entire posting history.

yes. the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

and not over the rainbow.

in the end, I like both videos.

the first post vid and YKW post vid.

--

:cool: