Shaolin Zhan Zhaung [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hendrik

07-13-2011, 03:50 PM

@Hendrik, Same as in the video.

You might want to look at standard 5-year curriculum here:

http://www.shaolinwugulun.com/default.aspx?id=14

esp. These two, both standing exercises.

少林桩功的练法（虚实桩）

少林步法的练法（五大步）<--- I believe this is the one in the linked video (I've seen people train these stances with different hand positions as well)

After this its mostly open handed forms, qigong and weapons.

and of course, several years later maybe

少林心意把桩功的学习和研究 (I can dream can't I?)

(but who knows what might not be mentioned on the website of course)

Thanks!

心意把 is not something everyone can train in. it is not the usual shao lin stuffs. it is a life long internal art journey.

They can show you the external shape or posture, but as soon as they dont show you the 心法, 气法, one will get no where.

The following is the truth which most people dont like to know and face.

近年亦有人宣称会心意把，实乃吴山林当年在少林传艺时教的几个简单功架。心意把乃历代单传之功法，练心意把必须终生独身、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

rett

07-13-2011, 04:05 PM

rett

07-13-2011, 04:07 PM

They can show you the external shape or posture, but as soon as they dont show you the 心法, 气法, one will get no where.

Heart to heart.

rett

07-13-2011, 04:08 PM

Live with people and they don't have to show.

Hendrik

07-13-2011, 04:14 PM

re: truth hard to face (thank you google translate)

Wu Gulun and Wu Shanlin were masters of xinyiba skill and they were householders with wife and children. So for this reason I believe that 100% celibacy is good for monks, but for a householder it's sufficient to be moderate with sex to maintain good qi. Don't overdo it but you don't have to give it up either.

The problem is the qi flow of cultivation is reverse the qi flow of sex. so, if one has sex and go train Qigong, the Qi will go the path of sex because that is how it is habitually use to. abd one will have difficulty make the correction of path way. and thus, everytime when the Qi accumulate a little, sex desire raise up and drain it.

and
after one had cultivate, for example, the qi flow of Xio Zhou Tien, or small cosmic cycle. if one has sex, that is breaking the flow and drain it out.

So, that is the delima. do you want to break your own kung fu? Not to mention the sensation of sex is so sharp that is it spikingly shock the shen, similar to drop a mountain into a quiet lake.

So, training and sex is a dilemma. and thus, those who train it will take Sex as only Baby making mission. if one take more then that and enjoy it that means one has already damage the shen and the Qi flow cultivation.

rett

07-14-2011, 03:02 AM

Chan teacher Shan Yang has said that laypeople can become enlightened. So compared to that possibility, having a "bullet in my gun" seems less important.

I believe if we aim to live naturally and with moderation then we are doing okay. Even qi cultivation can probably go to unnatural extremes.

Advanced and detailed qi circulation techniques sounds about as great as being pac-man world champion, to be honest. Taking it a bit too far.

My approach is practice within the possibilities of my life, do neigong, let it grow naturally without trying to push things.

I don't believe either that just because you have sex that your qi only circulates in a sexual way. If that were so all our brains would have died years ago. (Well maybe they did...)

Hendrik

07-14-2011, 06:35 AM

Chan teacher Shan Yang has said that laypeople can become enlightened. So compared to that possibility, having a "bullet in my gun" seems less important.

Forget about Chan.

Chan is extremely advance compare with Qi cultivation which is the core of advance TCMA or "bullet in your gun".

Chan is 100000 million miles away. not to put down anyone but 99% of the people doesnt know and doesnt practice Chan. Be it Monk or laypeople in China.

the following video is also not accurate on Chan although it could be a good start point.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinwugulunkungfu#p/u/1/fnNS8xea5LQ

I believe if we aim to live naturally and with moderation then we are doing okay. Even qi cultivation can probably go to unnatural extremes.

our believe is based on our mind and our mind is not reliable most of the time. our mind is just our habit. thus,
moderation is a flaky term.

Advanced and detailed qi circulation techniques sounds about as great as being pac-man world champion, to be honest. Taking it a bit too far.

if you dont have it you dont enter the door of advance TCMA. that is the consequence.

My approach is practice within the possibilities of my life, do neigong, let it grow naturally without trying to push things.

you are entitle to your approach. that is ok.

However, when we talk about Neigong, then there has to be following the rule of natural. and often it is not that things are push, but we cant hold the practice because of our habit. and if the habit is not changes there is no hope for any attainment.

为何君视而不见规矩定方圆

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVZClxWy0TM&feature=player_embedded

westerners and the new generation Chinese are very against 规矩定方圆 due to the westernize culture.

I don't believe either that just because you have sex that your qi only circulates in a sexual way. If that were so all our brains would have died years ago. (Well maybe they did...)

1, because you have not practiced Qigong. and also, because you are healthy.

for those who have practice Qigong for advance Chinese martial art or curing sickness. they know.

2, you mention about Chan above, if I pull the Shurangama sutra which is the guide of the Chan practice that is even more demanding.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf

See, my intention to post above is simply,

if we are talking internal cultivation then there are certain non negotiable direction and rules one got to follow, otherwise, one really cant get any progress and end up go no where.

and

I am ok with whatever everyone wants to believe and do because we are just human. however, again, when we speak of Neigong practice then we cannot write off the true teaching because we dont or cannot afford to practice according to the teaching or 规矩定方圆.

we must be clear on what we do. we could choose to not practice but we dont put down the teaching because our own issue. that way we dont mislead ourselve and others even if we dont practice.

Finally, you ask me how to Sink Qi into Dan Tian, that is not difficult at all. however, the consequence is if you could sink qi into dan tian and then have sex, you will drain yourself big time. that is suicidal. so it is better to not know how to sink qi into dan tian so you dont drain your body as much.

but to those who is sick and not as healthy or aging, as soon as you make a decision to distance sex and practice Qigong, your health is surely will improve. but not sex or very little sex even after you are heal. you re wire the flow of the energy to rebuild your body. that is the idea.

Royal Dragon

07-14-2011, 06:56 AM

The problem is the qi flow of cultivation is reverse the qi flow of sex. so, if one has sex and go train Qigong, the Qi will go the path of sex because that is how it is habitually use to. abd one will have difficulty make the correction of path way. and thus, everytime when the Qi accumulate a little, sex desire raise up and drain it.

and
after one had cultivate, for example, the qi flow of Xio Zhou Tien, or small cosmic cycle. if one has sex, that is breaking the flow and drain it out.

So, that is the delima. do you want to break your own kung fu? Not to mention the sensation of sex is so sharp that is it spikingly shock the shen, similar to drop a mountain into a quiet lake.

So, training and sex is a dilemma. and thus, those who train it will take Sex as only Baby making mission. if one take more then that and enjoy it that means one has already damage the shen and the Qi flow cultivation.

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

rett

07-14-2011, 07:17 AM

How extensive is the Shaolin Zhan Zhuang catalogue?

I thought of this webpage in connection with your question:

http://www.chanwuyi.org/showroom/model/T0152/templateCustomWebPage.do?webId=1233929329351&editCurrentLanguage=1235069892126&customWebPageId=1285509311062457253

Hope it's of interest!:)

Hendrik

07-14-2011, 09:13 AM

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

It is universal.

The issue here is the art of Neigong is actually re wiring the circuit of the human. and sex needs to be handle in this rewiring new circuit.

without that rewiring, there is not much benifit, or even pull the reverse gear ,from the Neigong practice. that is certain.

This is not open up for most in general because there is not many who really practice Neigong.

When one enter the training of Zhuang Gong, disregards of any style, if the sex issue is not address that means the Qi issue cannot be solved. and thus, one dont really practice anything rather then some posture mimic-ing. thus, that is like a gun without bullets.

Crosshandz

07-14-2011, 10:52 AM

Thanks for all the enlightening responses. Rett I especially. appreciated that little looksee at Dejian's practices.

LFJ

07-15-2011, 01:01 AM

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 01:26 AM

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

If you train and have sex at the same time, in Chinese, it's called "花練(Hua Lian)". You will never be able to become the best of the best. When you were young, your TCMA teacher will force you to sleep with a rope around your head and legs (or sleep in a round tub). This way, you cannot straight your legs when you sleep.

If you have to wrestle 20 rounds after your sex, you will feel your weakness after sex. I also have never heard any Marathon runner who has sex the day before the competation.

rett

07-15-2011, 03:05 AM

This is what happens when religion and culture gets mixed up with martial arts training. People fabricate very intricate ways of promoting their religious and/or cultural beliefs and ideals in those who wish to learn their art, requiring certain diets or lifestyles.

I feel just as much if not more pressure from the unreflecting mainstream culture to eat and live a certain way. Pizza and hamburgers for example, hard drinking on the weekend. Hard to hang out with people if you don't share their basic enjoyments. So there's definitely a social pressure to conform. So you could call ordinary life a kind of religion/culture in the broad sense you speak of above. (A religion/culture where the priests are big for-profit corporations and the preaching is television advertisements)

Since I started eating Buddhist vegetarian 90% of the time, plus meat or whatever is served when invited to dinner by friends/family and the like, I feel better and I've dropped 8 kilos of fat. That's an empirical benefit IMO.

On the website I mentioned above, the recommendation is for normal people to allow themslves meat and so on in appropriate amounts. The foundation is vegetarian, but it's not totalitarian. And it definitely doesn't say you're a bad or inadequate person if you don't join.

rett

07-15-2011, 03:11 AM

If you have to wrestle 20 rounds after your sex, you will feel your weakness after sex. I also have never heard any Marathon runner who has sex the day before the competation.

I agree with this. But do you think this means it's necessary to be 100% celibate? Or just to be moderate about it, just like it's a good idea to be moderate about rich food.

OR suppose you have to wrestle after doing hard interval training. You'll feel your weakness. Does that make hard interval training harmful on the whole?

LFJ

07-15-2011, 04:04 AM

Since I started eating Buddhist vegetarian 90% of the time, plus meat or whatever is served when invited to dinner by friends/family and the like, I feel better and I've dropped 8 kilos of fat. That's an empirical benefit IMO.

On the website I mentioned above, the recommendation is for normal people to allow themslves meat and so on in appropriate amounts. The foundation is vegetarian, but it's not totalitarian. And it definitely doesn't say you're a bad or inadequate person if you don't join.

Actually, I'm not denying any benefits of vegetarianism, or even celibacy. I have been on the diet for many years myself. But I'm not going to make up elaborate reasons why it is necessary for your Qigong or martial arts practice- especially reasons that are not at all supported by factual evidence, but that we just say and expect you to accept.

This is from the Shaolin Wu Gulun website:
http://www.shaolinwugulun.org/view.asp?id=6

...This in turn allows the consciousness of the practioners to rise higher and eventually reach a state of enlightenment.

An enlightened being has total awareness of his own self, his body and his environment. If the enlightened person is also a gongfu practitioner he will be aware of fear and danger before ever seeing or knowing the source of those feelings. His reactions to danger, whether in training or in real combat, will be much faster – essential for the mastering of high level gongfu skills.

Vegetarianism is a vital element in the reaching of this state of awareness.

...Vegetarianism is essential for those who are serious about mastering the highest levels of gongfu.

It makes the claim that you must be vegetarian to reach enlightenment. It is a "vital element" in reaching that state.

It also makes the claim that vegetarianism is a must for reaching the highest levels of gongfu. It is "essential" for series students.

:rolleyes:

While I support the vegetarian diet, and agree with the reasons to adopt it as they are actually taught in the Buddhist sūtras (not because it is prerequisite for enlightenment), I will say what is written in this article is dishonest religious propagation.

As for enlightenment, it is not taught in Buddhist teachings that vegetarianism is vital for reaching that state.

As for gongfu, it really depends on their definition of "highest level". Perhaps it is being a "vegetarian gongfu practitioner" that is the highest level in their view.

In my view, it's a dishonest way to promote vegetarianism or teach gongfu.

rett

07-15-2011, 04:26 AM

It makes the claim that you must be vegetarian to reach enlightenment. It is a "vital element" in reaching that state.

I see your point. Those opinions about meat-eating are standard Mahayana Buddhism. Maybe the sutras don't make that exact claim but I beleive it's widespread belief. To me, Mahayana is such a force for good in the world that I mostly try to learn from it rather than find fault. It's not like joining a Jim Jones Koolaid cult :)

But I would probably also choose to respectfully (and probably silently) disagree on that point with reference to the Buddha and his monks who ate whatever fell into their begging bowls. The only restriction was that they mustn't eat meat that they have reason to believe was specifically slaughtered for their sake.

But if I'm living and training with people for a time I don't mind following their lifestyle and diet as much as I can with as little complaining as possible. As a born whiner I have a lot to learn from this.

In my view, it's a dishonest way to promote vegetarianism or teach gongfu.

Well it's not exactly like they are aggressively recruiting. It's nearly impossible to become a disciple of Shi Dejian.

Another thing is that I believe this website was put together by a lay follower who makes some other statements about Buddhism that I believe are doctrinally incorrect (like about a permanent self).

Certain chapters on the website and in the book are maybe more like a conversation with a fellow practitioner and person on the journey. Maybe you dont' agree about everything, maybe the teacher would not agree with everything, but the most important thing is finding the right heart. I get a very good feeling from the heart of this school, and from the pictures of the past grandmasters such as Ven. Master Xingxing.

There are so many opinions and views. Is there any gongfu school that is completely free from them?

rett

07-15-2011, 06:18 AM

How extensive is the Shaolin Zhan Zhuang catalogue? I know that Wang Xiangzhai studied Xinyiba from Shi Henglin. Is there good basis for believing the even step standing methods of Yiquan have their roots in Shaolin Kungfu?

Here's another video which I've been looking for the last couple of days and just found.

In the first 30 seconds you see three different stances. Interesting is that he lifts the heels in the low ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukS_jN-FS2I

And here you have stone posts, but it's not still standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KL3HPjWpJs

Crosshandz

07-15-2011, 11:51 AM

Here's another video which I've been looking for the last couple of days and just found.

In the first 30 seconds you see three different stances. Interesting is that he lifts the heels in the low ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukS_jN-FS2I

And here you have stone posts, but it's not still standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KL3HPjWpJs

Awesome. In the last one not only lifting the heels but turning out the palms too like Yao Cheng Guang is doing here:

http://www.yiquannet.com/en/Article/UploadFiles/200912/2009121516271786.jpg

Very interesting and much more than was hinted at by the little writeup on chanwuyi.org particularly when you factor in the heels off the ground stuff which I know Wang Shujin's standing practices included (Wang Shujin also, of course, having studied Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from Wang Xiangzhai). Seeing Shi De Jian displaying that only strengthens my inclination to believe that Wang Xiangzhai's studies under Shi Henglin must have given Wang the basis for his even step standing methods. Makes me wonder how much more of Shaolin Zhan Zhuang there is beyond what is publicly displayed..?

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 11:59 AM

do you think this means it's necessary to be 100% celibate?
It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not. I had forced myself not to have any sex for 2 years. It was not easy at all.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 12:05 PM

If you train and have sex at the same time, in Chinese, it's called "花練(Hua Lian)". You will never be able to become the best of the best. When you were young, your TCMA teacher will force you to sleep with a rope around your head and legs (or sleep in a round tub). This way, you cannot straight your legs when you sleep.

.

that is the way of authentic training in Kung Fu and non negotiable for those who really want good kung fu.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 12:05 PM

It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not. I had forced myself not to have any sex for 2 years. It was not easy at all.

Great indeed.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 12:11 PM

Awesome. In the last one not only lifting the heels but turning out the palms too like Yao Cheng Guang is doing here:

http://www.yiquannet.com/en/Article/UploadFiles/200912/2009121516271786.jpg

Very interesting and much more than was hinted at by the little writeup on chanwuyi.org particularly when you factor in the heels off the ground stuff which I know Wang Shujin's standing practices included (Wang Shujin also, of course, having studied Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from Wang Xiangzhai).

Seeing Shi De Jian displaying that only strengthens my inclination to believe that Wang Xiangzhai's studies under Shi Henglin must have given Wang the basis for his even step standing methods.

Makes me wonder how much more of Shaolin Zhan Zhuang there is beyond what is publicly displayed..?

Yiquan's standing post is based on Xing Yi's Zhan Zhuang. Certainly Wang evolve his yiquan later but the core still Xing Yi.

故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋氏德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等数十人。郭云深传刘纬祥先生。我幼年；老师张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫。30年从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴等较技辄败北。先生笑曰：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是形意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。从此，我才下功夫练站桩。

秦重三编《气功疗法》中的三合式，工芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此......

in Zhan Zhuang, a little off is a thousand miles off. So, unless once got the full instruction looking at the posture one really doesnt know much of it.

Crosshandz

07-15-2011, 01:54 PM

Yiquan's standing post is based on Xing Yi's Zhan Zhuang. Certainly Wang evolve his yiquan later but the core still Xing Yi.

故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋氏德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等数十人。郭云深传刘纬祥先生。我幼年；老师张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫。30年从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴等较技辄败北。先生笑曰：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是形意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。从此，我才下功夫练站桩。

秦重三编《气功疗法》中的三合式，工芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此......

in Zhan Zhuang, a little off is a thousand miles off. So, unless once got the full instruction looking at the posture one really doesnt know much of it.

Fortunately one of Master Yao's disciples taught me Yiquan Zhan Zhuang before I started learning Shaolin Kungfu. I continue to practice the methods together with the visualisations to benefit my Shaolin.

Whilst I recognise the non even step postures as broadly being familiar to what I have heard (admittedly never witnessed) Xingyi people do I have not heard any tradition of Xingyi people doing even step Zhan Zhuang. Moreoever, the variants in hand positioning used in even step Zhan Zhuang that I was taught I have not heard being employed in Xingyiquan either. If it can be demonstrated that they existed/exist in Xingyi fair enough but if they are I've never encountered it.

Increasingly I am convinced that these methods or at least their root was taught to Wang Xiangzhai in the early 1920s when he was studying Xinyiba from Shi Henglin.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 05:24 PM

Fortunately one of Master Yao's disciples taught me Yiquan Zhan Zhuang before I started learning Shaolin Kungfu. I continue to practice the methods together with the visualisations to benefit my Shaolin.

Whilst I recognise the non even step postures as broadly being familiar to what I have heard (admittedly never witnessed) Xingyi people do I have not heard any tradition of Xingyi people doing even step Zhan Zhuang.

Moreoever, the variants in hand positioning used in even step Zhan Zhuang that I was taught I have not heard being employed in Xingyiquan either. If it can be demonstrated that they existed/exist in Xingyi fair enough but if they are I've never encountered it.

Increasingly I am convinced that these methods or at least their root was taught to Wang Xiangzhai in the early 1920s when he was studying Xinyiba from Shi Henglin.

I dont understand your comparison and how your Yiquan benift your Shao lin. and your conclusion on Wang Xiangzhai.

What is an even step Zhan Zhuang? What is an non even step Zhan Zhuang?

I would love to understand your view.

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 05:29 PM

Great indeed.

I'm glad the we finally have something that we both agree with. I still remember that my girl wanted to have sex but I turned her down and she was so mad at me. Sometime the girls just won't know that sex is not the only thing that men want the most in their lifetime. If I have to live my life all over again, I'll do the same thing without any regret.

When I mentioned the words "花練(Hua Lian)", most people didn't even know what I was talking about. My teacher told me the following story.

Oneday my teacher used a soap that smell good to take a bath. When he passed by his teacher, his teacher stopped him and gave a slap on his face. his teacher thought that he just had sex with some girl. The TCMA training do require some sacrifice.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 05:35 PM

I'm glad the we finally have something that we both agree with.

I still remember that my girl wanted to have sex but I turned her down and she was so mad at me. Sometime the girls just won't know that sex is not the only thing that men want the most in their lifetime.

There are common practice be it we call Qi or not that we are practicing. So, there are lots of things we both will agree because we both practice them.

How can one be good in Kung fu if one not even willing and cannot control one's sex life? it cant.

for me,
if one cannot 'eating bitter" I now a day dont even bother to show them the true practice. that is because kung fu is not taking Opium and have high. Kung fu is work to the point that confident and certainty become a nature. weak will people cant have good kung fu.

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 05:50 PM

This is one of my favor jokes.

A TV reporter tries to interview 3 100 years old men to find out their secret of long life.

- The 1st old man said, "I don't smoke and I don't drink."
- The 2nd old man said, "I don't eat junk food and I exercise."
- The 3rd old man said, "I smoke, drink, eat junk food, don't exercise, but my wife is ugly".

LFJ

07-15-2011, 07:24 PM

I see your point. Those opinions about meat-eating are standard Mahayana Buddhism. Maybe the sutras don't make that exact claim but I beleive it's widespread belief. To me, Mahayana is such a force for good in the world that I mostly try to learn from it rather than find fault. It's not like joining a Jim Jones Koolaid cult :)

It is not standard Mahāyāna Buddhism if the Sūtras don't make that claim.

I am therefore not finding fault in the Mahāyāna teachings, but pointing out where some fanatics are claiming false teachings to promote their ideals.

But if I'm living and training with people for a time I don't mind following their lifestyle and diet as much as I can with as little complaining as possible.

Sure, if that is their culture... but my beef (;)) is with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism- by claiming it is vital for enlightenment, and essential for the highest levels of gongfu.

It's simply dishonest. A better way would be to say they prefer followers in their school adopt vegetarianism, or simply say that is a requirement they have chosen to set in their school.

They might then explain some of the reasons the diet is beneficial in practice. It is completely dishonest to tell someone it is necessary for series practitioners to reach enlightenment or high levels of gongfu.

Well it's not exactly like they are aggressively recruiting. It's nearly impossible to become a disciple of Shi Dejian.

Another thing is that I believe this website was put together by a lay follower who makes some other statements about Buddhism that I believe are doctrinally incorrect (like about a permanent self).

Right, I wasn't talking about Shi Dejian or Wu Nanfang personally, unless they support what is written on their English sites. I'm not sure who wrote the article.

I get a very good feeling from the heart of this school, and from the pictures of the past grandmasters such as Ven. Master Xingxing.

There are so many opinions and views. Is there any gongfu school that is completely free from them?

I think the school offers great training, I only disagree with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism (and also celibacy in regards to Qigong). When talking about Qigong, they make up all sorts of elaborate and unverifiable reasons for both vegetarianism and celibacy. They just expect you to believe what they say without evidence because they understand Qigong and you don't. :rolleyes: In China you never question the teacher.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 08:48 PM

It is not standard Mahāyāna Buddhism if the Sūtras don't make that claim.

1. Shurangama sutra make is extremely clear. No meat in serious practice meditator not even have to be a Buddhist. anyone goes internal No meat.

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle mind and Qi smoothly instead of getting into trouble in the practice of internal art.

3, there is nothing to do with culture but human body and chemistry.

4, no one forcing anyone, one want to walk the path of kung fu then one needs to follow the law of natural.

It's simply dishonest. A better way would be to say they prefer followers in their school adopt vegetarianism, or simply say that is a requirement they have chosen to set in their school.

dishonest?

the rule is set up to avoid one get into trouble in the practice. if one cant follow the rule one better not practice. otherwise, it is suicide.

They might then explain some of the reasons the diet is beneficial in practice. It is completely dishonest to tell someone it is necessary for series practitioners to reach enlightenment or high levels of gongfu.

Again, for thousand of year, all serious advance Chan practioners in China follow Shurangama sutra's teaching. no exception.

I think the school offers great training, I only disagree with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism (and also celibacy in regards to Qigong).

When talking about Qigong, they make up all sorts of elaborate and unverifiable reasons for both vegetarianism and celibacy.

They just expect you to believe what they say without evidence because they understand Qigong and you don't. :rolleyes:

In China you never question the teacher.

You want to practice Qigong, Neigong, Zhan Zhuang, Zhuang Gong, sitting meditation, YiJiJing, XiShuijing.....etc?

you take meat and onion,
you cant control your emotion, particulary sex, anger, hate, depression, and over thinking.

how can you get any kung fu with all the disruptive emotion and chemistry in your body? you will end up wasting time keep fighting your emotion and run away body.

so what is so great to keep complaining others is dishonest and not find out the facts ?

serious Kung fu training is not the Holiwood movie making. either one follow the instruction or one dont practice. There is a consequence and responsibility on every action taken.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 09:06 PM

The following has very clearly state on the issues on true Shao lin Kung Fu. Someone who is good in Chinese and English might want to translate it and share it with everyone here.

心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。

试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

LFJ

07-15-2011, 11:19 PM

1. Shurangama sutra make is extremely clear.

Nowhere in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra does it state that vegetarianism is a vital factor for reaching enlightenment.

It does speak of avoiding meat in those who need training to develop compassion, but this has more to do with mindfulness of other beings' suffering. It is not about some mystical link between diet and spiritual attainment.

Nowhere does it say that one cannot reach enlightenment if they eat meat.

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle mind and Qi smoothly instead of getting into trouble in the practice of internal art.

3, there is nothing to do with culture but human body and chemistry.

Unless you have factual evidence in support of this, it is just an empty claim. Expecting people to accept it without proof is irrational and dishonest.

Again, for thousand of year, all serious advance Chan practioners in China follow Shurangama sutra's teaching. no exception.

Sure. This is one of the main lengthy Sūtras we study in the Chán school. I also accepted its teachings upon a detailed study and investigation of it. Also I have been on a vegetarian diet for many years. So I am not against it at all.

It is a huge leap however, to make the claims that are in the article at the Shaolin Wu Gulun website- that vegetarianism is necessary for enlightenment and high level martial arts. That is just pushing their ideals. There are far better and more practical reasons to promote vegetarianism.

so what is so great to keep complaining others is dishonest and not find out the facts ?

What is dishonest is expecting people to accept claims without factual evidence to support it, while regarding those claims as facts, rather than theories.

either one follow the instruction or one dont practice.

Just like I said, in China you don't question the teacher or the instruction. That's part of the problem. That's why there are still people who believe Qigong is so mysterious.

LFJ

07-15-2011, 11:26 PM

外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

:rolleyes: Yet they can make unfounded claims and expect people to accept it as fact.

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 11:48 PM

Nowhere in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra does it state that vegetarianism is a vital factor for reaching enlightenment. .....

Nowhere does it say that one cannot reach enlightenment if they eat meat.

From the Shurangama sutra -----

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

“Bodhisattvas and bhikshus who practice purity will not
even step on grass in the pathway; even less will they pull it up
with their hand.

How can one with great compassion pick up
the flesh and blood of living beings and proceed to eat his fill?

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 11:52 PM

it is a huge leap however, to make the claims that are in the article at the shaolin wu gulun website- that vegetarianism is necessary for enlightenment and high level martial arts.

What is dishonest is expecting people to accept claims without factual evidence to support it, while regarding those claims as facts, rather than theories.

.

Factual evidence? this is factual evidence

心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 11:57 PM

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle ...

Here is another thing that we both agree. I have been a vegeterian for over 30 years. I can see my benefit that I don't have:

- high blood pressure,
- diabetes,
- high cholesterol,
- fat belly,

That's good enough reason for me. I don't expect others to become vegeterian like me. It's their body and they can do whatever that they want.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 12:05 AM

Hendrik-

If you are going to quote the Śūraṅgama Sūtra be sure to include the full context. What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing. Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing.

To train followers to cease killing and thoughts of killing, vegetarianism is prescribed. This still does not make the claim that enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat. It is a teaching primarily about mental training, not diet.

After all "一切唯心造".

Factual evidence? this is factual evidence

心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

No. That is an example of an unfounded claim. Are you unsure what facts and evidence are?

Crosshandz

07-16-2011, 01:12 AM

I dont understand your comparison and how your Yiquan benift your Shao lin. and your conclusion on Wang Xiangzhai.

What is an even step Zhan Zhuang? What is an non even step Zhan Zhuang?

I would love to understand your view.

The Yiquan curriculum seperates the Zhan Zhuang into different categories.

1) Ping Bu (which I've been calling even step, even stance would be more accurate I apologise)
2)Zuo Shi (which are sitting postures)
3) Wo Shi (which are lying down postures)
4) Ding Ba Bu (Fixed stance postures)

From my admittedly very small knowledge of Xingyiquan I have heard its practioners using similar methods to Yiquan's Ding Ba Bu. Anyone could see the similarity between Yao ZongXun's Hunyuan Zhuang and San Ti Shi:

http://www.newyorkyiquan.com/resources/_wsb_206x360_08a_1158198177.jpg

http://www.yizongbagua.com/Santi%20gallery/images/ChenPanling%20Santi_jpg.jpg

There are several other postures in Yiquan's curriculum too that I have heard are very similar to what exist in Xingyiquan such as taming the tiger and dragon descends which, I have heard, are designed to help the practioner achieve dragon body etc.

However the other postures I haven't heard being used in Xingyiquan which has always made me curious as to where they come from. Wang Xiangzhai said he went to Shaolin temple in the early 20s and learned Xinyiba from Abbot Henglin as he wanted to deepen his knowlege of Xingyi and Shaolin temple was its source according to him (a claim that many modern martial arts historians appear to be embracing).

My guess is that these other postures that are a core element of the Yiquan system and which, to my limited knowledge, do not appear in the Xingyiquan were the result of Wang's studies at Shaolin. The videos of Shi DeJian's standing post exercise and the similar hand positioning may indicate that Wang was taught the principles at Shaolin and then went off and expanded it on his own or perhaps that Shaolin's Zhaung gong training is more extensive than Yiquan's and that much remains hidden.

For me Zhan Zhuang is the core of Chinese Martial arts so practicing it is essential to my development in Shaolin Kungfu. My personal experience has been that Zhan Zhuang practice has helped me not fall over when I try to rapidly turn from ma bu into gong bu to punch for instance and there are many other benefits besides that such as being able to move from relaxation to tension back to relaxation when striking. There are, of course, lots of other benefits but relating them directly to Shaolin Kung fu sensitivity, balance, utilisation of energy, timing, clear-mindedness would be the main ones that I have personally experienced.

I have seen Zhan Zhuang practiced in different ways sometimes people look like they are in agony. I was not taught Zhan Zhuang in this manner. I'm not saying that sort of training is wrong but mainly in Zhan Zhuang if I have felt any discomfort it has been in the opening of the kua/hip whatever you want to call it and that was not unbearable searing pain more like the waking up of an old man who hasn't stretched his legs for awhile. Because of how key that area is to Shaolin Kung fu, in my personal understanding (which may indeed be wrong), I have felt Zhan Zhuang has been essential to improving my ability to transfer power from the ground through my body but that's sort of moving away from the point.

rett

07-16-2011, 04:31 AM

It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not.

Not in the slightest, to be honest:)

rett

07-16-2011, 04:46 AM

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 09:23 AM

If you are going to quote the Śūraṅgama Sūtra be sure to include the full context.

I have post the link to the full sutra under the quote anyone who is interested could read for themselve.

The bottom line is No meat to keep one clean in mind and body.

What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing.

Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing.

you have just violate the teaching of Shurangama sutra and sound like those who is in demonic state which Shurangama sutra describe.

I hope you go read the full sutra.

To train followers to cease killing and thoughts of killing, vegetarianism is prescribed.

This still does not make the claim that enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat.

It is a teaching primarily about mental training, not diet

After all "一切唯心造".

Shurangama is a teaching of body, mind, soul.

The Shurangama sutra clearly state the following which I have post in my previous post.

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

your

After all "一切唯心造" is just an empty talk with mislead yourself and others.

No. That is an example of an unfounded claim. Are you unsure what facts and evidence are?

anyone who has internal cultivation knows this is what happen in their body-mind.

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

rett

07-16-2011, 09:37 AM

@Hendrik

Shakyamuni ate meat and his monks were allowed to eat meat. The Vinaya Pitaka is very clear about that. He was fully enlightened and he had many enlightened disciples.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 10:31 AM

@Hendrik

Shakyamuni ate meat and his monks were allowed to eat meat. The Vinaya Pitaka is very clear about that. He was fully enlightened and he had many enlightened disciples.

since Shao lin is Chan school
let see what the Shurangama sutra said in the same chapter as my previous post.

Ananda, I permit the Bhikshus to eat five kinds of pure
meat. This meat is actually a transformation brought into being
by my spiritual powers. It basically has no life-force. You
Brahmans live in a climate so hot and humid, and on such
sandy and rocky land, that vegetables will not grow; therefore,
I have had to assist you with spiritual powers and compassion.
Because of the magnitude of this kindness and compassion,
what you eat that tastes like meat is merely said to be meat; in
fact, however, it is not. After my extinction, how can those who
eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?.....

Therefore, Ananda, if cultivators of Ch’an samadhi do not
cut off killing, they are like one who stops up his ears and calls
out in a loud voice, expecting no one to hear him. It is to wish to
hide what is completely evident.

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

is a proper teaching. we might not be able to do it. but we must not over write it with our own self - agenda reason to break the proper teaching. In fact, one could admit one not be able to do it however one knows the proper teaching. that is nothing wrong with that.

just because one cant do it and find all kinds of reasons to destroy the proper teaching is evil. it is like saying since I am going to hell then might as well get everyone to go to hell too.

so, it is ok to know the proper teaching and know one is not there yet. no one is asking one to be perfect and infact no one is and it is not practical to be perfect. one's job is to get closer and closer to the proper teaching and gain kung fu that way. that is the journey of kung fu to correct what in the past and live a better now.

Crosshandz

07-16-2011, 11:02 AM

@Crosshandz

When you wrote even step / non-even step I thought you were referring to the weight distribution, or to standing in ma bu (any width) vs. standing with one leg forward as in san ti si for example.

Did I get that wrong? (the fourfold classification seems to make distinctions that go in another direction, unless I'm missing something which is likely)

Rett

Yes, you were right in what you understood originally because when I first posted I was only thinking about the standing Zhaung positions but as this thread has progressed I have also been developing my thoughts, in a very stream of consciousness incoherent way, which is probably where the confusion came in.

When Hendrik asked me to clarify my thinking about the differences between even step and non even step I thought it would only make sense to discuss the laying and seated Zhuang as well. As, again to my admittedly limited knowledge, I have not seen those used in Xingyiquan. That being said I have seen some of Xie Peiqi's Bagazhuang Zhuang and there are crossovers there it would be very interesting to know what the root of those practices are? Yin Fu's Bagua is based on Shaolin too after all.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 11:10 AM

The Yiquan curriculum seperates the Zhan Zhuang into different categories.............me not fall over when I try to rapidly turn from ma bu into gong bu to punch forg (which may indeed be wrong), I have felt Zhan Zhuang has been essential to improving my ability to transfer power from the ground through my body but that's sort of moving away from the point.

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

perhaps somedays you will see what is not in the postures because often the Kung fu is beyond the postures.

Crosshandz

07-16-2011, 12:32 PM

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

perhaps somedays you will see what is not in the postures because often the Kung fu is beyond the postures.

I'd appreciate your insights on this point.

I don't really understand what you mean to say the Kung fu is beyond the postures. From my experiences there is a casual relationship between the different postures and the different health benefits/training that arise from them.

http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/images/zz_zhuang-v.gif

For instance, the various postures displayed in the above image by Wang Shujin, from my experience all do slightly different things. Each of them stresses a certain point of practice that the others do not and their effect is directly tied to what position you take up.

Its true that you can get the same things from different postures. Its not impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti shi, for example, the reason it was altered by Wang Xiangzhai was because he felt it was easier to train omnidirectional force by altering the hand positioning (something I would very much concur with as someone not blessed by God with a natural gift for the internal). Is this what you meant or are you pointing at something more?

Can you go into a bit more detail? :confused:

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 12:57 PM

I'd appreciate your insights on this point.

I don't really understand what you mean to say the Kung fu is beyond the postures. From my experiences there is a casual relationship between the different postures and the different health benefits/training that arise from them.

using Posture + internal method one train and attain a type of Kung fu.

after of have that type of kung fu then Posture is just an expression. it is similar to once one can play piano one can play any song. it is not the song but the way how to play piano.

for example,
if you study Yiquan and doesnt attain the Yiquan hun yuan li and fa li. then you could do all the curiculum perfectly but you dont know Yiquan and doesnt have Yiquan kung fu.

So Kung fu is beyond the posture and curiculum.

even if the curiculum is still there and one could mimic all practice, as soon as one no longer be able to cultivate the Kung fu of that particular style, that kung fu is already extinct.

So, what you post above on Wang Xiang Zai, Shao lin....etc. really doesnt make much sense because those are surface stuffs. unless one knows the kung fu's DNA posture doesnt tell much on where is that from.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 01:05 PM

Its true that you can get the same things from different postures. Its not impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti shi,

for example, the reason it was altered by Wang Xiangzhai was because he felt it was easier to train omnidirectional force by altering the hand positioning (something I would very much concur with as someone not blessed by God with a natural gift for the internal).

who said that it is impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti Shi?

anyone has the ominidirectoinal force can do anything and in both static and dynamic and still got that force.

San Ti Shi's internal and external three syncronization 内外三合 at every part of the body is Ominidirectional force.

Taiji's Peng is Omindirectional force.

My opinion for you is to train and really attain the Kung fu and then describe it, as it is. instead of taking anyone's word and mislead the heck out of you. must not be a parrot but be a real human knowing what it is one talking about.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 01:20 PM

For instance, the various postures displayed in the above image by Wang Shujin, from my experience all do slightly different things. Each of them stresses a certain point of practice that the others do not and their effect is directly tied to what position you take up.

Those are just his entertainment or fine tuning on his art at a certain point of his life. you take that seriously you are in trouble.

There real deal is the core all of these entertainment and fine tune. no one has all the time to train all these entertainment. and different people needs different fine tune.

so what is the beef or the core? that is the critical stuffs and most people wont tell you. and you chasing the ghost of all kind of shapes or postures.

YouKnowWho

07-16-2011, 01:47 PM

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

A: Since yesterday was D's wedding, he must be tired from last night.
B: I bet you that he won't dare to come here in the next 3 days.
C: If he comes, he doesn't need to wrestle, he will have soft legs even when he stands.
A: If he comes, I'll wrestle with him. It will be just like to wrestle against a kid.
B: We should not take advantage on old, "weak", sick, and disable.
C: Don't worry about. I'll take easy on him.
A: D, You look so skinny today ...
D: :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe3V1nydeC0

Crosshandz

07-16-2011, 02:23 PM

Unless I've misunderstood your posts Hendrik you seem to be attacking me? Although I don't think I have misunderstood you as you referred to me as a misled parrot. :p

I am genuinely surprised by the tone of your responses to me and some of the bones you seem to pick e.g. my mentioning of omnidirecitonal force are baffling to me. I never said anywhere that you said omnidirectional force couldn't be attained in San Ti I asked if you were saying if via one posture you could develop the things you develop in all the others? An idea I backed at the time I mentioned that too...

I'm not entirely sure why you felt it was necessary to reply to me in the manner you did. You are free however to make whatever assumptions about me that you feel like doing even if I would perhaps dispute some of them.

My own personal experience is that the different postures do stress slightly different things and I enjoy varying between them for that purpose. If that is chasing ghosts then I am a self-confessed ghost buster. ;)

Moreover, should anyone else have any enlightening input on Shaolin Zhan Zhuang I should be very much interested in hearing about it too.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 03:18 PM

Unless I've misunderstood your posts Hendrik you seem to be attacking me? Although I don't think I have misunderstood you as you referred to me as a misled parrot. :p

............ I'm not entirely sure why you felt it was necessary to reply to me in the manner you did.

You are free however to make whatever assumptions about me that you feel like doing even if I would perhaps dispute some of them.

English is my x language, so sorry I am not good at diplomatic, and have missed read your post.
however I have no intention to attack you. my reply on the topic technically still applied if you want to discuss.

YiQuanOne

07-16-2011, 03:30 PM

e.g. my mentioning of omnidirecitonal force are baffling to me. I never said anywhere that you said omnidirectional force couldn't be attained in San Ti

I think the way you wrote the "omnidirectional force" might have been mis interpreted!

YouKnowWho

07-16-2011, 03:58 PM

If we compare the following 2 types of ZZ, we can see a big difference there.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8412/13taibo.jpg

http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/images/zz_zhuang-v.gif

LFJ

07-16-2011, 04:31 PM

I have post the link to the full sutra under the quote anyone who is interested could read for themselve.

The bottom line is No meat to keep one clean in mind and body.

Yet you only post for immediate reference what is convenient for pushing your ideals. The context of the paragraph is very important for clarifying the last few sentences.

It says "these people kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle". Eating meat does not mean you have killed. It is obviously not simply talking about diet. If you include the full paragraph you will see what "these people" refer to.

The section is talking about three grave wrongdoings- lusting, killing, and stealing.

It says in the paragraph for each;

1) Lust: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must first of all cut off the mind of sexual desire. This is the first clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the past, the Bhagavans."

2) Killing: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must also cease killing. This is the second clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the Past, the Bhagavans."

3) Stealing: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must also cease stealing. This is the third clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the past, the Bhagavans."

In the section on killing, it talks about ceasing killing and thoughts of killing. Abstaining from meat is a training for such people. It is to purify the mind. The Sūtra says not a thing about vegetarian diet for the body or for those who do not kill or have thoughts of killing.

What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing.

Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing. you have just violate the teaching of Shurangama sutra and sound like those who is in demonic state which Shurangama sutra describe.

I hope you go read the full sutra.

So you think the mere act of eating meat is equivalent to killing?

Present actions cannot be causes for effects that take place in the past.

That means someone's present choice to eat meat cannot be the cause for the animal being killed, when it had long since been dead before the desire to eat meat arose.

The act of eating meat cannot possibly carry the karma of killing. If you believe this is a teaching in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, or anywhere in Buddhist teachings, you'll have to provide citation.

By the way, this is the main Sūtra I've studied for years. I'm very familiar with what it says, not that I'm making any sort of spiritual claim by that statement... but I know what it says and does not say. So yes, I have already read the full text many times over.

Shurangama is a teaching of body, mind, soul.

It definitely does not say that. No Buddhist teaching is a teaching of soul.

The Shurangama sutra clearly state the following which I have post in my previous post.

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

Mind you, it says this in the context of ceasing killing and thoughts of killing. Vegetarianism is prescribed to counter those unwholesome acts. That is all.

It is ridiculous to believe that the sentence; "Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle.", refers to anyone who simply has meat in their diet. How can they be guilty of killing?

"Such people as these" clearly refers to those with habits of killing and thoughts of killing, as is the main point of the paragraph.

You take a snippet of the Sūtra that seems to support your ideal universally, and discard the context which proves it does not.

Again, mind you, I have been on a vegetarian diet for many years myself. I am not at all arguing against it!

your After all "一切唯心造" is just an empty talk with mislead yourself and others.

That is not my empty talk, it is Śākyamuni Buddha's famous "empty and misleading talk" from the Avataṃsaka Sūtra. :rolleyes:

anyone who has internal cultivation knows this is what happen in their body-mind.

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

And anyone who has internal prayer knows God exists and answers prayers...

Sorry, that is not factual evidence for your claim...

wenshu

07-16-2011, 04:39 PM

Dude, stop violating the Śūraṅgama Sūtra.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 04:48 PM

@Hendrik

Shakyamuni ate meat and his monks were allowed to eat meat. The Vinaya Pitaka is very clear about that. He was fully enlightened and he had many enlightened disciples.

If meat eating was such a grave sin, as Hendrik makes it out to be, it would have made it into the Vinayapiṭaka. Yet he brushes it off with this;

since Shao lin is Chan school
let see what the Shurangama sutra said

Still, the part he quoted says;

"Therefore, Ananda, if cultivators of Ch’an samadhi do not
cut off killing, they are like one who stops up his ears and calls
out in a loud voice, expecting no one to hear him. It is to wish to
hide what is completely evident."

The entire section is about cutting off killing. Eating meat is not killing. As I said in my last post;

Present actions cannot be causes for effects that take place in the past.

That means someone's present choice to eat meat cannot be the cause for the animal being killed, when it had long since been dead before the desire to eat meat arose.

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

is a proper teaching. we might not be able to do it. but we must not over write it with our own self - agenda reason to break the proper teaching.

No one is trying to "overwrite it with our own self-agenda reason to break proper teaching". As I have been saying, I've in fact been on a vegetarian diet for many years.

The problem here is that you have not met your burden of proof, yet expect people to accept your claims without sufficient evidence.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 04:53 PM

That is not my empty talk, it is Śākyamuni Buddha's famous "empty and misleading talk" from the Avataṃsaka Sūtra. :rolleyes: .

believe all you like that is fine with me.

YouKnowWho

07-16-2011, 04:59 PM

Eating meat is not killing.
When you live in the wildness, if you want to eat meat, you have to kill yourself. That's called hunting or fishing.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 05:03 PM

If meat eating was such a grave sin, as Hendrik makes it out to be, it would have made it into the Vinayapiṭaka. Yet he brushes it off with this;

Still, the part he quoted says;

"Therefore, Ananda, if cultivators of Ch’an samadhi do not
cut off killing, they are like one who stops up his ears and calls
out in a loud voice, expecting no one to hear him. It is to wish to
hide what is completely evident."

The entire section is about cutting off killing. Eating meat is not killing. As I said in my last post;

you missed out this part of the sutra

After my extinction, how can those who
eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 05:11 PM

If we compare the following 2 types of ZZ, we can see a big difference there.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8412/13taibo.jpg

http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/images/zz_zhuang-v.gif

one needs to know what are those things for.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 05:13 PM

When you live in the wildness, if you want to eat meat, you have to kill yourself. That's called hunting or fishing.

But killing is killing. Eating is eating.

Killing carries the karma of killing. Eating does not.

you missed out this part of the sutra

After my extinction, how can those who
eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?

Again, you must take it its full context. It is talking about people who have thoughts of killing, commit the act of killing, and then eat what they have killed.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 05:47 PM

But killing is killing. Eating is eating.

Killing carries the karma of killing. Eating does not.

Again, you must take it its full context. It is talking about people who have thoughts of killing, commit the act of killing, and then eat what they have killed.

After my extinction, how can those who
eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?

clearly state the Buddha's teaching.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 05:57 PM

Dude, you can't extract a sentence from its context and hope to make a point.

Can you answer why meat eating is not restricted in the Vinayapiṭaka?

Also, regardless, lest we forget, this conversation is about the claim made in the article on the Shaolin Wu Gulun website that says enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat.

Where is this claim supported in Buddhist scripture?

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 06:10 PM

Also, regardless, lest we forget, this conversation is about the claim made in the article on the Shaolin Wu Gulun website that says enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat.

Where is this claim supported in Buddhist scripture?

Shurangama sutra:

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples of the Buddha.

Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

LFJ

07-16-2011, 08:52 PM

Hendrik- I'm not sure if you're just ignoring my posts, or choosing not to acknowledge them...

"Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle."

You think this section is talking about anyone who eats meat? So anyone who eats meat is guilty of killing? Can you explain how so?

I've already said;

Present actions cannot be causes for effects that take place in the past.

That means someone's present choice to eat meat cannot be the cause for the animal being killed, when it had long since been dead before the desire to eat meat arose.

Furthermore, creating the karma of killing requires five conditions;

1) a being

2) awareness of the being

3) intention of killing

4) effort to kill

5) consequent death

This means if someone is target shooting outdoors for sport, and the bullet strikes and kills an animal in the distance, not all five conditions are present. No awareness of the being, no intent to kill, no effort to kill. So the shooter does not acquire the karma of killing in the accidental death of the animal.

Likewise, if a hunter is actively searching for animals, locates an animal, and intending to kill it makes an effort by firing their gun at the animal, but misses... then although he had unwholesome mental states, he did not commit the karma of killing because there was no accomplishment in the task. He did not kill.

Now in the case of eating meat....,

In having meat on your plate and eating it, the animal which provided that meat has long since been dead and the meat no longer has a mind-stream. In the act of eating the meat there is no 1) being (no mind-stream), which means conditions 2 through 5 cannot be present. There is no intent to kill, effort to kill, or consequent death.

So in the section of the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, "these people who eat meat" refers to "Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle".

That means those who "kill and have thoughts of killing" and then eat what they've killed (refer to the five conditions for the karma of killing), not just anyone who eats meat.

This section of the Śūraṅgama Sūtra is only about ceasing 3 actions;

1) lusting

2) killing

3) stealing

Vegetarianism is prescribed as an antidote for those who "kill and have thoughts of killing". Killing and thoughts of killing keep one from attaining Bodhi. Simply eating meat is not an act of killing, nor a thought of killing. (refer once again to the 5 conditions for completing the karma of killing)

So why is it said in the article on the Shaolin Wu Gulun website that enlightenment is unattainable by meat eaters (not those who eat what they've personally killed)? Where is it supported in Buddhist scripture?

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 09:24 PM

Shurangama sutra: the 52 demonic states.

He will slander the holding of
precepts, calling it a ‘Small Vehicle Dharma.’

He will say,
‘Since Bodhisattvas have awakened to emptiness, what is there
to hold or violate?’

This person, in the presence of his faithful
danapatis, will often drink wine, eat meat, and engage in
wanton lust. The power of the demon will keep his followers
from doubting or denouncing him.

After the ghost has
possessed him for a long time, he may consume excrement and
urine, or meat and wine, claiming that all such things are
empty. He will break the Buddha’s moral precepts and mislead
people into committing offenses. Lacking proper samadhi, he
will certainly fall.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v8.020526.screen.pdf

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!

少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？

所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？

所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

is a proper teaching. we might not be able to do it. but we must not over write it with our own self - agenda reason to break the proper teaching and get ourself into trouble.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 09:35 PM

Chapter 28: Be Wary of the Unbridled Mind
The Buddha said, “Be wary of trusting your own mind, for it is
deceptive. Be wary of situations that may incite lust, for those
will lead to disaster. Once you have attained arhatship, you can
trust your own mind.”

http://www.buddhagate.org/Teachings/Sutras/documents/sutra_of_42_chapters_sutra_v1.3.pdf

Hendrik- I'm not sure if you're just ignoring my posts, or choosing not to acknowledge them...

"Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle."

You think this section is talking about anyone who eats meat? So anyone who eats meat is guilty of killing? Can you explain how so?

I've already said;

Present actions cannot be causes for effects that take place in the past.

That means someone's present choice to eat meat cannot be the cause for the animal being killed, when it had long since been dead before the desire to eat meat arose.

Furthermore, creating the karma of killing requires five conditions;

1) a being

2) awareness of the being

3) intention of killing

4) effort to kill

5) consequent death

This means if someone is target shooting outdoors for sport, and the bullet strikes and kills an animal in the distance, not all five conditions are present. No awareness of the being, no intent to kill, no effort to kill. So the shooter does not acquire the karma of killing in the accidental death of the animal.

Likewise, if a hunter is actively searching for animals, locates an animal, and intending to kill it makes an effort by firing their gun at the animal, but misses... then although he had unwholesome mental states, he did not commit the karma of killing because there was no accomplishment in the task. He did not kill.

Now in the case of eating meat....,

In having meat on your plate and eating it, the animal which provided that meat has long since been dead and the meat no longer has a mind-stream. In the act of eating the meat there is no 1) being (no mind-stream), which means conditions 2 through 5 cannot be present. There is no intent to kill, effort to kill, or consequent death.

So in the section of the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, "these people who eat meat" refers to "Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle".

That means those who "kill and have thoughts of killing" and then eat what they've killed (refer to the five conditions for the karma of killing), not just anyone who eats meat.

This section of the Śūraṅgama Sūtra is only about ceasing 3 actions;

1) lusting

2) killing

3) stealing

Vegetarianism is prescribed as an antidote for those who "kill and have thoughts of killing". Killing and thoughts of killing keep one from attaining Bodhi. Simply eating meat is not an act of killing, nor a thought of killing. (refer once again to the 5 conditions for completing the karma of killing)

So why is it said in the article on the Shaolin Wu Gulun website that enlightenment is unattainable by meat eaters (not those who eat what they've personally killed)? Where is it supported in Buddhist scripture?

LFJ

07-16-2011, 09:43 PM

Yes, eating meat in general is not a pure act for a Buddhist. But it is not the karma of killing, as has been demonstrated. Having no such unwholesome karmic result, the simple act of eating meat cannot be an obstruction to enlightenment. Hence it is not restricted in the Vinayapiṭaka.

You have not demonstrated how or why eating meat might block one from attaining enlightenment. You've quoted on killing and thoughts of killing obstructing enlightenment- with vegetarianism as an antidote, and you have quoted on meat eating being impure.

None of this is support for your claim.

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 09:50 PM

Clearly address in Shurangama Sutra:

“After my extinction, in the Dharma-ending Age, these
hordes of ghosts and spirits will abound, spreading like wildfire
as they argue that eating meat will bring one to the Bodhi Way.

“You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas. When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle. How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

“Bodhisattvas and bhikshus who practice purity will not
even step on grass in the pathway; even less will they pull it up
with their hand. How can one with great compassion pick up
the flesh and blood of living beings and proceed to eat his fill?

“Bhikshus who do not wear silk, leather boots, furs, or down
from this country or consume milk, cream, or butter can truly
transcend this world. When they have paid back their past
debts, they will not have to re-enter the Triple Realm.

“Why? It is because when one wears something taken from
a living creature, one creates conditions with it, just as when
people eat the hundred grains, their feet cannot leave the earth.
Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies and the
by-products of living beings, by neither wearing them nor
eating them. I say that such people have true liberation.

“Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies
and by-products of living beings, by neither wearing them nor
eating them.”

“What I have said here is the Buddha’s teaching. Any
explanation counter to it is the teaching of Papiyan.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf

Yes, eating meat in general is not a pure act for a Buddhist. But it is not the karma of killing, as has been demonstrated. Having no such unwholesome karmic result, the simple act of eating meat cannot be an obstruction to enlightenment. Hence it is not restricted in the Vinayapiṭaka.

You have not demonstrated how or why eating meat might block one from attaining enlightenment. You've quoted on killing and thoughts of killing obstructing enlightenment- with vegetarianism as an antidote, and you have quoted on meat eating being impure.

None of this is support for your claim.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 09:59 PM

Hendrik

07-16-2011, 10:09 PM

If you're going to do nothing more than repeat the same quote which does nothing to prove your point, and add nothing new to it, nor address the points I've made... then I take that as conceding the debate.

is it the same quote ? or you resist what is being present clearly?

BTW. I am not interested in your debate, you want to argue go argue with the Buddha.

LFJ

07-16-2011, 10:18 PM

YouKnowWho

07-16-2011, 10:29 PM

LFJ

07-16-2011, 10:31 PM

The vegetarian people just want to prove one thing and that is, "The human race can survive without killing." Animal also has as much right to live as human being does. This has nothing to do with religion but "LOVE".

I've also been vegetarian for many years. In case you missed that. I'm not arguing against it at all.

rett

07-17-2011, 05:14 AM

after of have that type of kung fu then Posture is just an expression. it is similar to once one can play piano one can play any song. it is not the song but the way how to play piano.

Nicely put, thanks. Of course, we learn to understand the expression or inner feeling of a music style by listening to pieces of music... outer expressions. And also if we spend time together with musicians from that music culture.

No reason to put down inner heart or outer form. A musician needs both. Musicians think this way. They all know this. Technique and feeling. When you can play from the feeling-intent with no need to pay attention to technique... well that's a good feeling and other people respond. At risk of being considered flaky or pretentious, maybe you could call it Xin and Yi leading.

Of course I believe the same goes for movements and postures in kung fu training, including Zhan Zhuang. Sometimes they don't "give you the keys" because maybe it's more valuable to find it yourself by experimenting and by responding to the personality and small expressions of the teacher. If you are patient enough then it's okay to train and train and wait and wait.

I'm not that big on efficiency any more, I guess. Foundational training feels more rewarding and nourishing.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 06:20 AM

It is the same quote you posted a number of times, and which I have addressed a number of times. Yet my points have been ignored by you, as you continue to post the same quote as if I didn't see it.

What originally made me comment on this thread was your elaborate reasons and claims of vegetarianism and celibacy (or close to it) being necessary in Qigong and martial arts practice, for which you are unable to provide evidence.

You make these claims and expect people to simply accept it without proof, and make no attempt to provide evidence when requested. I think it is a very dishonest way to push your religious ideals into Qigong and martial arts training.

no one can give you any evidence or proof if in your mind you have already make up your decision to suspect and argue with all cost.

in fact, you are not reading my previous posts which fill with information and answers. You dont see it if you choose to not see.

think and believe anything you like, It is a free will world.

For those who is serious only, the following have answers both why one needs to be vegitarian in term of Qigong Neigong practice and Buddhist spiritual practice accord to the teaching of the Buddha in Chan tradition since Shao lin is a Chan school.

1, 若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？

if one dont know the qi cultivation, practicing kung fu without knowing what to not eat, without have a proper diet; that will cause one's blood and qi to be restless, when one's breath and qi have difficulties to be tune, how could one manage and cultivate the mind and intention?

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

This said, eating meat and drinking wine are not proper for Shao lin Chan Kung Fu cultivation since previously has addressed if one doesnt know how to choose a proper diet one's blood and Qi are basically restless. one must not follow those who speculate without true cultivation.

2, Shurangama sutra:

“You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas. When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle. How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

“Bodhisattvas and bhikshus who practice purity will not
even step on grass in the pathway; even less will they pull it up
with their hand. How can one with great compassion pick up
the flesh and blood of living beings and proceed to eat his fill?

“Bhikshus who do not wear silk, leather boots, furs, or down
from this country or consume milk, cream, or butter can truly
transcend this world. When they have paid back their past
debts, they will not have to re-enter the Triple Realm.

“Why? It is because when one wears something taken from
a living creature, one creates conditions with it, just as when
people eat the hundred grains, their feet cannot leave the earth.
Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies and the
by-products of living beings, by neither wearing them nor
eating them. I say that such people have true liberation.

“Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies
and by-products of living beings, by neither wearing them nor
eating them.”

“What I have said here is the Buddha’s teaching. Any
explanation counter to it is the teaching of Papiyan.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 06:43 AM

Nicely put, thanks. Of course, we learn to understand the expression or inner feeling of a music style by listening to pieces of music... outer expressions. And also if we spend time together with musicians from that music culture.

No reason to put down inner heart or outer form. A musician needs both. Musicians think this way. They all know this. Technique and feeling. When you can play from the feeling-intent with no need to pay attention to technique... well that's a good feeling and other people respond. At risk of being considered flaky or pretentious, maybe you could call it Xin and Yi leading.

Of course I believe the same goes for movements and postures in kung fu training, including Zhan Zhuang. Sometimes they don't "give you the keys" because maybe it's more valuable to find it yourself by experimenting and by responding to the personality and small expressions of the teacher. If you are patient enough then it's okay to train and train and wait and wait.

I'm not that big on efficiency any more, I guess. Foundational training feels more rewarding and nourishing.

1, it is practically impossible to cultivate anything without the keys.

2, without the keys it is wasting of time because one will not be able to cultivate

3, one could see those who practice yiquan standing for years and doesnt know fa li, shao lin zhuang gong for years and cant sink breath/qi to dan dian. those are the indication of have not enter the door.

rett

07-17-2011, 07:52 AM

Spoon can be in the soup for 100 years and never know the taste.

Someone else can know the taste right away. Real keys are natural and are conveyed heart to heart.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 08:38 AM

Spoon can be in the soup for 100 years and never know the taste.

Someone else can know the taste right away. Real keys are natural and are conveyed heart to heart.

the issue is the soul of the art. if that soul is missing then the body is no longer alive.

in fact, one doesnt even need to conveyed heart to heart, it is just a technology transfer and make sure both the hard ware and soft ware both transfer. that's all. but it seems to be very difficult for some reasons.

it is as simple as follow the instructions, get feedback on how far the erro towards the target and make correction, follow the instructions, get feedback ......... that's all. No brain at all, but some how some got stuck in their thinking and lost there, some missing instruction, some doesnt know what to expect, some doesnt get the correction......etc. and that is the world...

it is like planting a flower, one feed it water, fetilize, proper diet, and sun every day, and the seeds grow and some days the flower is there. no brain at all.

however, if one put a cut flower in a vase, the flower is dead.

learning all the Zhuang without knowing what is going on and get the soul/seed; is like placing a cut flower in a vase. it might looks great in the begining but it has no soul and will not grow but dry away. that is what i refer as chasing ghost.

LFJ

07-17-2011, 01:51 PM

no one can give you any evidence or proof if in your mind you have already make up your decision to suspect and argue with all cost.

Actually it's the exact opposite- if you don't question, you will not find answers.

Not having a skeptic mind and looking for justification in anything you believe, especially when it comes to physical and spiritual health, means you are just believing what your masters say without any good reason (which could potentially be harmful).

Is it wrong to ask for evidence of claims made? I've been vegetarian for many years myself, so I'm not against it at all. I'm simply asking you for proof of the claims you make. If you can't provide any, then there is no reason to believe it.

I think it's wrong to make claims and not be willing or able to justify them.

in fact, you are not reading my previous posts which fill with information and answers. You dont see it if you choose to not see.

I read everything you posted. The problem is you don't seem to understand what qualifies as a reasonable answer. You are basically saying; "this is true because its what the tradition says".

That's a terrible reason to believe something. "Because so-and-so master said so" does not qualify as factual evidence in support of their claim.

For the claims that you have made regarding non-vegetarian diet and Qigong practice and its effects on "qi" or emotional well-being, are there any reports from professionally performed controlled studies that have consistently produced the same results?

Something like this would qualify as factual evidence and proof, not "because so-and-so said so".

RenDaHai

07-17-2011, 07:49 PM

Hey Guys, Hey J

The Master who taught me 炁功 did tell me a few things about this.

He said as a Consequence of practice, meat would feel heavy and not taste as good. And slowly you would not eat it. But he did NOT say that as a consequence of NOT eating meat practice would improve.

So it may be true that many Qigong masters do NOT eat meat. However it is also true that many Wushu masters wear red. If I wear red will it help me become a Wushu master?

It is essential not to confuse Cause and Consequence.... Something that Chinese tradition does all too much. The main problem with Qigong in China is that it is so poorly understood and so steeped in tradition that most people can't separate the essence from the tradition. And in fear of missing something practice everything they were told without using logic to improve their practice.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 07:54 PM

anyone wants to translate these?

1，荦食比素食难消化，会加重肠胃负担。

　　2，荦食易导致高血压、高血脂、高血糖，对练气造成不良影响。中医理论就认为气和血是紧密相关的，有“ 气推血行”一说，要是血脂高、血粘度高的话就不易产生良好的气感。

　　3，按佛门的说法，荦食会导致更多的杀业，不利于内心的纯净，当然会影响入静、意守等。

　　4，据说动物在被宰杀时，身体会释放一种毒素，特别是被虐杀者更是如此，这对修炼之人有害。

　　5，荦食会比素食更能强化一个人的性欲，这种强化不是使身体健康变好，而是让人更想男女之事，导致凡精遗漏过多，这对练功是最大的违害。有人说：练功就是要增强性能力！以这种心态练下去，最终必将害人害己。我们的祖先早在几千年前就明白：恬淡虚无、精神内守才是正道。

　　6，荦食者比素食者更易冲动，更有进攻性，这从动物界的行为能看出来。

LFJ

07-17-2011, 08:21 PM

anyone wants to translate these?

I could translate them, but what's the point? It's just more unfounded claims of the same kind you've been making. It proves absolutely nothing and adds nothing new to the conversation. You either don't know what facts and evidence are, or you have none.

rett

07-18-2011, 03:20 AM

He said as a Consequence of practice, meat would feel heavy and not taste as good. And slowly you would not eat it. But he did NOT say that as a consequence of NOT eating meat practice would improve.

That's interesting and reminds me of a recent experience. I was served vegetarian food at a conference center and reacted to both the spices and the amount of oil in the food. (it was tomato sauce with zucchini). There was nothing wrong with it. I used to try to make veggie food taste good the same way they were doing. But now, all I tasted was spices and oil. It seemed heavy and fake. I would literally have preferred thin millet gruel. I never thought I'd come to actually long for the taste "bland". This is not to say I'm some kind of perfect diet-holder or anything.

Crosshandz

07-18-2011, 06:00 AM

I cant help but be both fascinated and faintly amused by the turn this thead has taken since I started it. Nonetheless it may be the case that Rett's new thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61187) may be a better vehicle for some of this discussion which, whilst extremely enlightening (you see what I did there? :p), is not directly centred upon my original inquiry: is there any relationship between Yiquan Zhan Zhuang and Shaolin Zhan Zhuang?

The interesting link Rett provided from the ChanWuYi webpage on Shaolin Mind-Body exercises (http://www.chanwuyi.org/showroom/model/T0152/templateCustomWebPage.do?webId=1233929329351&editCurrentLanguage=1235069892126&customWebPageId=1249870401984005463) was particularly intruiging. I had never been exposed to the "monkey hands" Zhan Zhuang position (wonder if this strengthens the Xinyiba-Xinyiquan connection vis-a-vis the squatting monkey practices of the latter?). Is there more to this posture than is present on Shi Dejian's site?

For instance I was taught a similar posture where you keep your hands flat and have the sensation of pressing down on a board that is floating so you cannot push it too hard or it will sink but you need to keep it from flowing away with the current. Simultaneously you feel as though a weight is pressing down upon your hands so you have to have the sensation of pushing upwards against it so you don't push down so hard on the board that it goes under. This all fires up a lot of really nice feeling stuff. Can someone familiar with the Shaolin Zhaung gong say if similar visualisations are employed?

That page of the ChanWuYi website says that what Shi Dejian presents are what he created to "meet the needs of modern people" so I'm assuming there's a lot more to the material that the postures presented on that page are based on. Anyone who could throw open the door on the Shaolin Zhang gong I'd be very interested to hear from as, as I'm sure has become apparent, I'm quite interested to do a compare and contrast. ;)

Thx

Hendrik

07-18-2011, 09:26 AM

This all fires up a lot of really nice feeling stuff.

nice feeling focus,

isnt that the side track which will cause Pin Cha in long term?

Crosshandz

07-18-2011, 10:56 AM

nice feeling focus,

isnt that the side track which will cause Pin Cha in long term?

Anyone can do single whip but what differentiates the power of single whip is the cohesive use of body and energy to deliver it. A master could teach the movement single whip to anyone off the street and they would be able to copy its form but lack the intention and ability to use it as it was intended.

To get to that point clearly everyone has to start somewhere unless they are a born genius of fighting. If someone cannot feel whats going on inside their body its useless to try and instruct them in more sophisticated forms of training. Even if my teacher had told me to maintain connection when moving how would I have been able to do it if I couldn't even feel what was supposed to be connected? Once you have made the first step then you can move onto other methods of training.

My curiosity about Shaolin's methods is partly because I simply want to know if and how they have informed that of the Yiquan school and partly because I am intrigued to know if there are things particular to Shaolin might prove interesting to experiment with. Hence why I started this thread.

Hendrik

07-18-2011, 11:44 AM

Anyone can do single whip but what differentiates the power of single whip is the cohesive use of body and energy to deliver it.

A master could teach the movement single whip to anyone off the street and they would be able to copy its form but lack the intention and ability to use it as it was intended.

To get to that point clearly everyone has to start somewhere unless they are a born genius of fighting. If someone cannot feel whats going on inside their body its useless to try and instruct them in more sophisticated forms of training. Even if my teacher had told me to maintain connection when moving how would I have been able to do it if I couldn't even feel what was supposed to be connected? Once you have made the first step then you can move onto other methods of training.

My curiosity about Shaolin's methods is partly because I simply want to know if and how they have informed that of the Yiquan school and partly because I am intrigued to know if there are things particular to Shaolin might prove interesting to experiment with. Hence why I started this thread.

feeling is a very fuzzy stuffs.

The issues are there can be different ---- the placement of intention, qi flow path and six directional force vectors paterns exist within the same posture.

unless one knows what are they, one really doesnt know what the posture is for.

so unless you could get the above details from Shao Lin and compare it with Yiquan details, it really doesnt tell much.

Crosshandz

07-18-2011, 12:00 PM

feeling is a very fuzzy stuffs.

The issues are there can be different ---- the placement of intention, qi flow path and six directional force vectors paterns exist within the same posture.

unless one knows what are they, one really doesnt know what the posture is for.

so unless you could get the above details from Shao Lin and compare it with Yiquan details, it really doesnt tell much.

Which is why I started this thread.

I was and still am hoping for someone well versed in Shaolin Zhang gong to speak a little more about their methods and maybe open up a bit on what they do and how it to relates to the practices of other styles e.g. Yiquan.

Hendrik

07-18-2011, 12:04 PM

Which is why I started this thread.

I was and still am hoping for someone well versed in Shaolin Zhang gong to speak a little more about their methods and maybe open up a bit on what they do and how it to relates to the practices of other styles e.g. Yiquan.

The Shao lin Zhang Gong of Xingyipa Chanwuyi is different from the Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from fundamental.

in general,

Yiquan is intention and Force vectors center system

ChanWuyi is physical flow and Qi flow center system.

Yiquan is core on Shan Ti shi of Xing Yi, even if it is using the posture of XingYipa, it is using Xing Yi Pa's posture to train intention and force vectors. Thus, it is no longer Shao Lin's Xing Yi pa but a Xing Yi evolution adapting Shao Lin's posture.

Not to mention, the center of Wang Xiang-Zai's kung fu is based on Xing Yi's San Ti Shi, he got the kung fu cultivation from Xing Yi. his body- mind has transform that way before goes to Shao lin. Thus, it is very not likely Wang Xiang -Zai is doing Shao lin. He might evolve his Xing Yi but not switch to Shao lin, a transform's body mind is very difficult to change in short time.

Crosshandz

07-18-2011, 12:39 PM

The Shao lin Zhang Gong of Xingyipa Chanwuyi is different from the Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from fundamental.

in general,

Yiquan is intention and Force vectors center system

ChanWuyi is physical flow and Qi flow center system.

Yiquan is core on Shan Ti shi of Xing Yi, even if it is using the posture of XingYipa, it is using Xing Yi Pa's posture to train intention and force vectors. Thus, it is no longer Shao Lin's Xing Yi pa but a Xing Yi evolution adapting Shao Lin's posture.

Not to mention, the center of Wang Xiang-Zai's kung fu is based on Xing Yi's San Ti Shi, he got the kung fu cultivation from Xing Yi. his body- mind has transform that way before goes to Shao lin. Thus, it is very not likely Wang Xiang -Zai is doing Shao lin. He might evolve his Xing Yi but not switch to Shao lin, a transform's body mind is very difficult to change in short time.

Now that's a lot clearer.

As I was taught Zhan Zhuang you use intention to learn the different directions of force, how to identify them, how to use them and then you bring them together and train them all at once. The different postures are simply means to stress different things, depending upon preference, the fundamental posture is Chengbao Zhuang the others are variants. Zhan Zhuang helps cultivate and unify your power, when you become still you realise in fact you are moving as a unit and when you can move as a unit you can use your intention to lead your energy and deliver power when striking.

Shaolin ChanWuYi's Zhuan Gong however, to my outsider's eyes, is moving energy within the body along certain lines and directing it in a very particular way. I'm assuming, admittedly in ignorance, that the energy is guided consciously from the centre to where its wanted and then back again? Whereas the method I was taught uses intention and visualisation of phenomena to do this the Shaolin method is centred upon a more direct way?

What Wang Xiangzhai transmitted is closer to what he learned from Guo Yunshen and if he did pick up any postures from Shi Henglin when studying Xinyiba he has sufficiently altered them that today the form remains the same but the body method differs a lot?

Is that right?

Which means that its a safe deduction that the root of many of Yiquan's postures is indeed Shaolin but the body method is from Guo Yunshen? So that even if Shaolin does indeed have more postures it would not make a large difference to me learning them unless I can do what Wang Xiangzhai did and use an "Yi" method of performing them or am instructed in them by a Shaolin master who can teach me the Shaolin way of doing them?

Hendrik

07-18-2011, 01:24 PM

Now that's a lot clearer.

As I was taught Zhan Zhuang you use intention to learn the different directions of force, how to identify them, how to use them and then you bring them together and train them all at once. The different postures are simply means to stress different things, depending upon preference, the fundamental posture is Chengbao Zhuang the others are variants. Zhan Zhuang helps cultivate and unify your power, when you become still you realise in fact you are moving as a unit and when you can move as a unit you can use your intention to lead your energy and deliver power when striking.

Shaolin ChanWuYi's Zhuan Gong however, to my outsider's eyes, is moving energy within the body along certain lines and directing it in a very particular way. I'm assuming, admittedly in ignorance, that the energy is guided consciously from the centre to where its wanted and then back again? Whereas the method I was taught uses intention and visualisation of phenomena to do this the Shaolin method is centred upon a more direct way?

What Wang Xiangzhai transmitted is closer to what he learned from Guo Yunshen and if he did pick up any postures from Shi Henglin when studying Xinyiba he has sufficiently altered them that today the form remains the same but the body method differs a lot?

Is that right?

Which means that its a safe deduction that the root of many of Yiquan's postures is indeed Shaolin but the body method is from Guo Yunshen? So that even if Shaolin does indeed have more postures it would not make a large difference to me learning them unless I can do what Wang Xiangzhai did and use an "Yi" method of performing them or am instructed in them by a Shaolin master who can teach me the Shaolin way of doing them?

yup. that seems to be.

Things can look similar however it is core with different type of Kung fu.