What Stands Out About TCMAists in The Ring?

[HumbleWCGuy]

What are some of the positive things that TCMAist do that stand out in the ring?

[David Jamieson]

What are some of the positive things that TCMAist do that stand out in the ring?

nothing, it's a ring, everyone weighs about the same and is held to the same rule set.

the only way to stand out is to win and keep winning within the rule set. Then, eventually you won't win anymore and another guy will.

there is no life or death. :)

[Snipsky]

What are some of the positive things that TCMAist do that stand out in the ring?

Since you're a humble wing chun guy, what is your answer to the same question?

[Lucas]

iron crotch

[David Jamieson]

iron crotch

not even once

[Lucas]

not even once

constantly!

[David Jamieson]

when does the iron crotch bacon?

[Lucas]

with eggs, toast and pancakes.

[Ray Pina]

nothing, it's a ring, everyone weighs about the same and is held to the same rule set.
Are you implying Kung Fu only works if it has a weight, size, weapon advantage?

Rules vary. If one wants to fight with no rules there are professional (paid) venues for that as well.... but you will need a visa.



the only way to stand out is to win and keep winning within the rule set. Then, eventually you won't win anymore and another guy will.

there is no life or death. :)

This is somewhat true. Consistently winning is how you stand out. Ironically, I have a harder time consistently winning in the cage, my record is better in BJJ. With that said, the better you are, the more well known you are, your opponents collect video. Study your tendencies. See what you like to do....when you have 15 Main Event fights in national TV, people tend to see your style, way of fighting.

Nobody wins them all. This says something about the level of competitors. Its also why people train hard, adopt. Are eager to learn new things. Bring in outside experts for a different point of view

With all this said, check out Jacare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHD067Gx7hw

I love this guy's style. He's a stand out in open/all weight class division on an international level. He wins because he's extraordinary.

To say there is no life or death in combat sports is not accurate. People die fighting for sport. More people are injured. And everyone gets hurt.... there are consequences. And you should respect that. ... you blow off and are too quickly to make light of the level of commitment and sacrifices martial artists make to acquire what it takes to enter that ring or cage or mat or tatami, etc.

Not only are these men and women dedicated martial artists, they tend to be the best at any given camp. They're the extraordinary ones..... the military goes through great pains to debrief their personnel when they get back from a live mission. There is value there. ... you toss it aside and devalue it for what reason?

[taai gihk yahn]

when they get knocked out, their bodies naturally form a yin-yang symbol when viewed from above...

[Snipsky]

when they get knocked out, their bodies naturally form a yin-yang symbol when viewed from above...

in perfect harmony

[David Jamieson]

with eggs, toast and pancakes.

the correct answer is "at midday"

If I had said "when does the narwhal bacon" then the correct answer would be "midnight".

@ray- I'm not implying anything of the sort, how did you read that into it? lol :p

[SPJ]

in the ring

yes you fight with rules

and may the best man win.

some of your CMA training may have to be modified to be safe

no kicking knee, etc

--

:)

[David Jamieson]

in the ring

yes you fight with rules

and may the best man win.

some of your CMA training may have to be modified to be safe

no kicking knee, etc

--

:)

well, more along the eyes of stick to the rules and don't fight dirty.
fighting dirty is how to shorten fights.

putting gloves on, setting weight limits, having everyone train hard in a fairly similar methodology makes fights last longer...so people will pay a little bit to watch them.

what's not to get? :p

[Lucas]

ok ill be serious for a moment and on topic.

What Stands Out About TCMAists in The Ring?

the place i think you will see the highest population of tcma people fighting in the ring would be sanshou.

in my opinion what stands out the most in this ring sport in comparison with other full contact fight sports is; the combination and exclusion to stand up and throwing/sweeping, in what could be considered (:eek:)a 'kickboxing' environment. really its a solid package for a good portion of a complete mma game. its that combination of striking and wrestling in sport that i think tcma displays best as its 'flavor' in full contact sport fighting. you can see this strength really come out when you see people who have trained under the sanshou ruleset for years switch over to the mma rule set.

now i know this is generally a quality attributed to the rules in which the people are fighting and any 'style' can compete in sanshou. but i still believe that when you are talking about tcma people actually fighting full contact, you will see them training in this fashion for that arena more often than anything else.

[PalmStriker]

in the ring

yes you fight with rules

and may the best man win.

some of your CMA training may have to be modified to be safe

no kicking knee, etc

--

:) No kicking knee? What about hamstring? (Canadian Hamstring?).:)

[PalmStriker]

Wouldn't MMA be better satuated in oil? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XmWjMcDlYE

[HumbleWCGuy]

Since you're a humble wing chun guy, what is your answer to the same question?

I think that one thing that stand out is that the kicking is has a good combination of speed and power. Somewhat snappy like TKD, but with some hip like MT. Also, I think that a lot of the San da fighters display a good transition between hands and feet. Meaning that a good bit of the time in MT, you will see guys either just kick in an exchange or just punch because they don't transition from one to the other as well.

[Frost]

yep thai guys suck at combining hands and feet ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCocBsKI5vU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjY8arC0eso&feature=related

where as heres sanda star cung lee absolutely not throwing single kicks and absolutely not throwing punch combinations without kicks....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItU8sK7jgg id also like to say im impressd how cung lee uses snap kicks and doesnt roll his hips into his round kicks or really throw his weight into his side kicks...oh wait my bad he does

[Frost]

on a serious note to me what stands out is the use of some different techniques, side kick is seen alot and not something you see from thai guys, they seem to like to angle off a bit more, thais like to stand from on and trade, but then the are built like tree trunks lol

in sanda you see more throw and takedowns but whether that unique to tcma in the ring, or the rules they are fighting i dont know

[HumbleWCGuy]

yep thai guys suck at combining hands and feet ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCocBsKI5vU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjY8arC0eso&feature=related

where as heres sanda star cung lee absolutely not throwing single kicks and absolutely not throwing punch combinations without kicks....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItU8sK7jgg id also like to say im impressd how cung lee uses snap kicks and doesnt roll his hips into his round kicks or really throw his weight into his side kicks...oh wait my bad he does

It's a general trend not something that is necessarily inherent in one-fight or one fighter, certainly not a highlight clip. Stop being a baby because your knife fighting is crap and you got powned so now you want to cry. Cung le uses a lot of TKD so... Shut up.

If I am going to compare a Kung fu kick to MT, it is less committed so it allows for better follow up. MT's especially of the traditional variety bring a lot more force with their kicks usually dropping the hands and committing the entire torso to kick which prevents a lot of follow-up. If you would have trained well enough to actually become an instructor in TCMA, you wouldn't be running through youtube trying to make stupid comparisons that you know nothing about.

[Frost]

It's a general trend not something that is necessarily inherent in one-fight or one fighter, certainly not a highlight clip. Stop being a baby because your knife fighting is crap and you got powned so now you want to cry. Cung le uses a lot of TKD so... Shut up.

If I am going to compare a Kung fu kick to MT, it is less committed so it allows for better follow up. MT's especially of the traditional variety bring a lot more force with their kicks usually dropping the hands and committing the entire torso to kick which prevents a lot of follow-up. If you would have trained well enough to actually become an instructor in TCMA, you wouldn't be running through youtube trying to make stupid comparisons that you know nothing about.

I believe on the knife fighting thread when you were asked to post clips of what you thought was good as no one else agreed with you you had a hissy fit saying I never post clips so why should you....I calmly pointed out the clips don’t have to have you in them and also posted a clip of myself......still waiting for you to post something........I also pointed out the strikes from the 2 on 1 and the elbow wrenches that might work as a disarm, and how the leverage is applied in that position makes going for the fingers worse than the blade (maybe as I say and contrary to what you typed about me I didn’t advocate going for the blade I said it might be an idea never done it) so who’s the baby now
Thais dont drop there hands when kicking, some swim the hip through using the hand others don’t, if you had any thai training you would know this
Oh and I was an instructor in TCMA under my master, thanks for playing though

[KC Elbows]

Is Hardwork not around anymore?

[Frost]

Is Hardwork not around anymore?

he is too busy writting on the is wing chun internal thread (got hes probably semi hard just reading that thread title) telling everyone they do wing chun wrong to have a go at us MMA guys :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

I also pointed out the strikes from the 2 on 1 and the elbow wrenches that might work as a disarm, and how the leverage is applied in that position makes going for the fingers worse than the blade (maybe as I say and contrary to what you typed about me I didn’t advocate going for the blade I said it might be an idea never done it) so who’s the baby now
You are changing your story. You were and are wrong and you know it and now you want to save face. You will get one try grabbing the blade just once. Keep some ice with you so that you can get your fingers sewn back on.




Thais don drop there hands when kicking, some swim the him through using the hand other don’t, if you had any thai training you would know this
The exception proving the rule. All sorts of schools do all sorts of things. Again, it's bout the general trend. It's the logic that I have come to expect from your feeble mind.



Oh and I was an instructor in TCMA under my master, thanks for playing
Why is your striking knowledge so poor then? I guess he taught you to throw your kicks so hard that you spin around like a top so that you couldn't follow up? Is that right?

[KC Elbows]

Is Wing Chun internal?

[Frost]

Is Wing Chun internal?

what are you trying to do...................make him appear on this thread!!!!:eek:

[KC Elbows]

If only someone could give me some conclusive evidence on the dangers of the trilateral commission's efforts to undermine the military-industrial-congressional complex in their war against the New World Order for total world globalization...

[Frost]

You are changing your story. You were and are wrong and you know it and now you want to save face. You will get one try grabbing the blade just once. Keep some ice with you so that you can get your fingers sewn back on.



The exception proving the rule. All sorts of schools do all sorts of things. Again, it's bout the general trend. It's the logic that I have come to expect from your feeble mind.


Why is your striking knowledge so poor then? I guess he taught you to throw your kicks so hard that you spin around like a top so that you couldn't follow up? Is that right?
Nope all thais are told to keep at least 1 hand up, most keep both, which you would know if you trained thai....just so we can be clear my striking knowledge for TCMA comes from my old master who trained semi and full contact fighters for decades, my second sifu who trained guys for sanda and my thai knowledge comes from my MMA coach who has cornered and trained the likes of paul daley, jimmy wallhead (also a coach of mine) dan hardy etc, so whats your thai background, whats your stikeing background........... so we can compare

[Frost]

If only someone could give me some conclusive evidence on the dangers of the trilateral commission's efforts to undermine the military-industrial-congressional complex in their war against the New World Order for total world globalization...

stop it just stop it right there :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nope all thais are told to keep at least 1 hand up

It depends on the kick. On a hard teep for instance you might see the hands go a good bit down from the on guard.
Concerning my previous post.
I said Thais (plural). In the interest of subject verb agreement, I said hands (plural). However, whether it is one or two hands it depends upon the particulars of the kick. I was considering all kicks, you of course just considered the round house because that's about where your knowledge stops.



most keep both
No they don't expecially not traditionally trained.



....just so we can be clear my striking knowledge for TCMA comes from my old master who trained semi and full contact fighters for decades, my second sifu who trained guys for sanda and my thai knowledge comes from my MMA coach who has cornered and trained the likes of paul daley, jimmy wallhead (also a coach of mine) dan hardy etc, so whats your thai background, whats your stikeing background........... so we can compare

Again, why is your knowlege of TCMA kicking so poor?

[KC Elbows]

You know what this thread needs more of?

A solid mix of latin dance links and discussions of why the Shah of Iran was overthrown to make way for widespread water fluoridation in Iran as part of a Planned Parenthood plot to reduce the non-Kennedy human population to zero.

[David Jamieson]

You know what this thread needs more of?

A solid mix of latin dance links and discussions of why the Shah of Iran was overthrown to make way for widespread water fluoridation in Iran as part of a Planned Parenthood plot to reduce the non-Kennedy human population to zero.

Also, that thing about the Japanese construction company cancelling their iranian contract because they kept using their cranes to publically execute people.

anyway, that's why the shah was deposed.

not enough crane hangings.

[KC Elbows]

I have always been partial to crane style.

[Frost]

It depends on the kick. On a hard teep for instance you might see the hands go a good bit down from the on guard. But I said Thais (plural) in the interest of subject verb agreement, I said hands (plural).


No they don't expecially not traditionally trained.



Again, why is your knowlege of TCMA kicking so poor?

this was how i was taught to teep, one hand extending towards the opponent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMBRBNtZLw&feature=related

here another one, sometimes his front hand drops down, sometimes it extends out, the other hand always stays high
now onto thais
here a very traditional version drops one hand to swim the hip through the other stays high though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2a7XX0DVoo&feature=related

finally some high kicks again hands stay high with one extending towards the opponent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APtIqiv_Uvc&feature=related

training at master toddys notice how 1 hand is always up even if the other is swimming the hip through?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr_w4efT3VY&playnext=1&list=PL6FC125A1093683C9

[Frost]

Also, that thing about the Japanese construction company cancelling their iranian contract because they kept using their cranes to publically execute people.

anyway, that's why the shah was deposed.

not enough crane hangings.

dont you encourage him

[KC Elbows]

Does anyone have any contact info for CYMAC?

[KC Elbows]

I only ask because I'm looking for an anti-mma double bat form designed by some sort of divine being.

[HumbleWCGuy]

this was how i was taught to teep, one hand extending towards the opponent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMBRBNtZLw&feature=related

here another one, sometimes his front hand drops down, sometimes it extends out, the other hand always stays high
now onto thais
here a very traditional version drops one hand to swim the hip through the other stays high though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2a7XX0DVoo&feature=related

finally some high kicks again hands stay high with one extending towards the opponent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APtIqiv_Uvc&feature=related

training at master toddys notice how 1 hand is always up even if the other is swimming the hip through?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr_w4efT3VY&playnext=1&list=PL6FC125A1093683C9

Here is how I learned to make my subjects agree with my verbs http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sv_agr.htm. I am well aware that the thais mostly train to drop one hand. I guess you can call it reaching if you want is some instances. I m not a thai and don't claim to be so I don't care to use their terminology on a TCMA forum.

Now, if you had done more than watch videos and larp your upright you would know that when these kicks come at their hardest, a lot of guys will drop both hands increase momentum at the beginning of the kick to buffer some of the momentum at then end. It happens all the time and you would understand that if you knew something.

Again, why are you showing me muay thai videos? What I want to know is why your knowlege of TCMA kicking is so poor? Are there not enough Youtube videos on the matter?

[HumbleWCGuy]

this was how i was taught to teep, one hand extending towards the opponent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMBRBNtZLw&feature=related

here another one, sometimes his front hand drops down, sometimes it extends out, the other hand always stays high
now onto thais
here a very traditional version drops one hand to swim the hip through the other stays high though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2a7XX0DVoo&feature=related

finally some high kicks again hands stay high with one extending towards the opponent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APtIqiv_Uvc&feature=related

training at master toddys notice how 1 hand is always up even if the other is swimming the hip through?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr_w4efT3VY&playnext=1&list=PL6FC125A1093683C9

From those videos that you posted, if you don't see the difference between the affordences of TCMA kicking (even "TCMA ring kicking"), you aren't an instructor of TCMA.

[Frost]

Here is how I learned to make my subjects agree with my verbs http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sv_agr.htm. I am well aware that the thais mostly train to drop one hand. I guess you can call it reaching if you want is some instances. I m not a thai and don't claim to be so I don't care to use their terminology on a TCMA forum.

Now, if you had done more than watch videos and larp your upright you would know that when these kicks come at their hardest, a lot of guys will drop both hands increase momentum at the beginning of the kick to buffer some of the momentum at then end. It happens all the time and you would understand that if you knew something.

Again, why are you showing me muay thai videos? What I want to know is why your knowlege of TCMA kicking is so poor? Are there not enough Youtube videos on the matter?

well i did post cung lee but you dont agree with how he kicks after all it tKD he does, and i showed the thai stuff to prove you incorrect when you talked abuut them dropping there hands and being out of position after the kick, are those kicks the same as you see in tcma, h*ll no and please quote where i said they were...........

[HumbleWCGuy]

well i did post cung lee but you dont agree with how he kicks after all it tKD he does, and i showed the thai stuff to prove you incorrect when you talked abuut them dropping there hands and being out of position after the kick, are those kicks the same as you see in tcma, h*ll no and please quote where i said they were...........
I love the fact that you don't know subject verb agreement.
1. Which sentences are correct:
A. Frost is an U.K. Hillbilly.
B. Frost are a U.K. Hillbilly.


This is a thread about things that stand out about TCMA fighters in the ring. I made a comparison that you tried to challenge with Cung le (A TKD guy who fights San da).

Then you tried to say that most MT schools keep both hands up. Then you proved yourself wrong by posting clips.

[HumbleWCGuy]

well i did post cung lee but you dont agree with how he kicks after all it tKD he does,


I said:

I think that one thing that stand out is that the kicking is has a good combination of speed and power. Somewhat snappy like TKD, but with some hip like MT. Also, I think that a lot of the San da fighters display a good transition between hands and feet. Meaning that a good bit of the time in MT, you will see guys either just kick in an exchange or just punch because they don't transition from one to the other as well.

You sarcastically said:

yep thai guys suck at combining hands and feet ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCocBsKI5vU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjY8arC0eso&feature=related

where as heres sanda star cung lee absolutely not throwing single kicks and absolutely not throwing punch combinations without kicks....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItU8sK7jgg id also like to say im impressd how cung lee uses snap kicks and doesnt roll his hips into his round kicks or really throw his weight into his side kicks...oh wait my bad he does

Since the tread topic is about TCMA and my comment concerned TCMA kicking, it is quite clear that you think that Cung Le, performing San Da, does kicking that is representative of TCMA. Cung les round would be more indicative of MT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, 3 pages and nothing that shows "what stands out" about TCMA in the ring.
Excellent work guys !

[SPJ]

You know what this thread needs more of?

A solid mix of latin dance links and discussions of why the Shah of Iran was overthrown to make way for widespread water fluoridation in Iran as part of a Planned Parenthood plot to reduce the non-Kennedy human population to zero.

yes, latin dance is always a good mix of traditional and new. such as salsa is mix from swing or tango so are TCMA (mix of old and new stuff)

yes, the royal family of shah was overthrown, and the country was ruled by religious fundamentalist, no exposing wimmins skins or cover your daughters and 4 wives, so that men are not lured into sinning by looking at their faces, arms and legs--

yes planned parenthood is not about using condoms or pills

it is about aborting fetus from "unwanted pregnancy" or planned abortions paid by the federal, state, public or your tax money.

kennedy family is sort of royal family or powerful family since pre WWII.

if another kennedy is in the presidency, we will reach the mars and beyond, and not calling off 30 year old space shuttle programs, and shut down huston economy

huston will be expanding with more nasa scientists and astro nauts

rise up you all kennedy people, we need elect another kennedy like president into office, balance the budget by cutting everything else except space programs etc

--

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wow, 3 pages and nothing that shows "what stands out" about TCMA in the ring.
Excellent work guys !

Apologies, but frost isn't clear on exactly what TCMA entails so... Here we go again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Apologies, but frost isn't clear on exactly what TCMA entails so... Here we go again.

Pictures and video is worth 1000 words.
I am sure you can find something to illustrate your point.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Pictures and video is worth 1000 words.
I am sure you can find something to illustrate your point.

You are probably correct. I hate running through Youtube to find stuff, but it probably is better than having to try and explain every point 50 different ways. I might have to break down and do that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This isn't a perfect example but I think that it represents a more TCMA style front kick. Overall, I see the TCMA kick as having that whipping quality to them with some follow through and hip. It's not a pure snap so to speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbos4-Lhkks

[Mattador]

What are some of the positive things that TCMAist do that stand out in the ring?


They get knocked out and/or avoid ring fighting which makes more room for better fighters. If a tcmaist ever fought in the UFC I would not buy that ppv.

[lkfmdc]

This isn't a perfect example but I think that it represents a more TCMA style front kick. Overall, I see the TCMA kick as having that whipping quality to them with some follow through and hip. It's not a pure snap so to speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbos4-Lhkks

OK, now we see what you think is a good TCMA kick

[HumbleWCGuy]

They get knocked out and/or avoid ring fighting which makes more room for better fighters. If a tcmaist ever fought in the UFC I would not buy that ppv.

That's what gets said about karate yet, Bas Rutten, Andy Hug, and Machida. Now Duke Roufus's crew use stuff that is a is a fusion of MT, boxing, and traditional karate. One of the recent ultimate figher winners was a TCMA guy. I have to give that guy credit, he lacked a lot of physical gifts. Yet, there he was.

[HumbleWCGuy]

OK, now we see what you think is a good TCMA kick

There was a guy who you called a NY San Da Affilliate a while back who posted a clip of his mma fight. He delivered a punishing lead leg round to this guys gut. I thought that his kick had a tcma flavor to it. Do you recall the example?

[Frost]

OK, now we see what you think is a good TCMA kick

yep thats what i thought

[KC Elbows]

Because of a certain conservatism in tcma circles, acceptance of the ring has been slow. Currently, especially among younger sifus, interest is very strong, so most of what there will be to comment on will still be to come.

It's like arguing the proofs of the value of gloves for boxing before boxers were very accepting of them in training, much less competition.

[lkfmdc]

Because of a certain conservatism in tcma circles, acceptance of the ring has been slow.



While this appears to be true, it really must confront the other reality

There were organized competitions (with RULES) in China as far back as The 1920's

Regional, provincial, NATIONAL competitions

The "old school" wasn't afraid to get in there and mix it up, they didn't make excuses about "rules"

Within our memory all you have to look at is people like Chang Dung Sheng, Xia Bahua, Chan Tai San, Lai Hung, Tat Mau Wong, Tai Yim, Wai Lun Choi, heck the list is ENDLESS

All TCMA people who competed in organized events with rules, and had no problem doing it...

So where did this attitude about the "ring" come from?

[lkfmdc]

Lai Hung
http://www.htai.com/kungfu/laihung3.jpg

Wai Lun Choi
http://www.liuhopafa.com/fight2.JPG

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/3284811450_14edeaf32d.jpg

South east Asian cup

http://konghankungfu.com/myPictures/1969TsengKuomin.jpg

Pictures from events held in NYC in the 1970's
http://www.baguanyc.com/wutangfighters.htm

[KC Elbows]

While this appears to be true, it really must confront the other reality

There were organized competitions (with RULES) in China as far back as The 1920's

Regional, provincial, NATIONAL competitions

The "old school" wasn't afraid to get in there and mix it up, they didn't make excuses about "rules"

Within our memory all you have to look at is people like Chang Dung Sheng, Xia Bahua, Chan Tai San, Lai Hung, Tat Mau Wong, Tai Yim, Wai Lun Choi, heck the list is ENDLESS

All TCMA people who competed in organized events with rules, and had no problem doing it...

So where did this attitude about the "ring" come from?

Considering that what constitutes tradition in anything changes all the time, I find it more useful focusing on useful practices toward entraining techniques and principles against competent people doing the same than worrying about historical explanations of how things changed.

That said, not all full contact rules are equal in usefulness.

[Lucas]

So where did this attitude about the "ring" come from?

from big fat useless puzzies.

[KC Elbows]

from big fat useless puzzies.

If only we had all followed Paulie Zink!

[HumbleWCGuy]

The kid is TKD, but he is doing something that I would consider a half-decent roundhouse by TCMA standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIawbHsotgI&feature=related
What makes it good is when the foot travels continuously from the floor to the target. He still chambers but the foot never stops making angular progress. He gets some hip in his kick too, but it doesn't spin him.

What I consider bad is when I see the discontinuous snap. It gets taught that way but a lot of people never move beyond it. Chamber...Fire... Chamber.... Down.... um... No Thanks...

[lkfmdc]

you are making yourself perfectly clear now

[Ray Pina]

I posted the following a month or so ago to point out what I thought were more "internal" movements vs. "external" movements from some old fight clips.

I apologize if it's redundant and doesn't fir here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w

at 46 seconds in. That is an internal strike. Tai Ji opening move

at 1:05 internal-ish intercept, wedging entry... lost it/sloppy then external striking

1:30 definitely internal uplifting. E-Chuan 100%

2:42 to 3:05 pure external

3:22 is a beautiful display of back-foot-driven, intercept-and-stick-and-follow, knock someone down and spin them power. An example of skill if I saw so myself.

[Northwind]

I only ask because I'm looking for an anti-mma double bat form designed by some sort of divine being.

Hey wait a minute. I just realized that dude disappeared. Where'd he go?

[Yum Cha]

TCMA tournaments used to look like this. Minimum padding, hard floors, young guys with more heart than skill testing their metal. Some great matches, some sloppy slugfests...

some gross mismatches too...

Rules, regulations and liability drove them into new rule sets or alternative formats....i.e. mma, points, or anything between.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6aUqvqIDB8&feature=related

They stopped in Australia about 92. 80s were the heyday. I think the one above is Taiwan, that's what it says, but lots of round eyes...

[Frost]

ron van cleef in full contact mode, still not to many combinations like we were told to expect, but some lovely stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquDpDJTVHU&feature=player_embedded

[HumbleWCGuy]

ron van cleef in full contact mode, still not to many combinations like we were told to expect, but some lovely stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquDpDJTVHU&feature=player_embedded

He looks like he is out there points fighting really. He looks to be on steroids. I wonder if he would have any hope at all without?

[Frost]

What he looks like is irrelevant he was fighting full contact and did it for a number of years in any venue he could find, even fought in the UFC in his 50’s, did you see the knock downs and the knock out at the start, hardly point sparring

As for the steroids point, he’s not that big he was in great shape but then from everything I have heard he was a great athlete and trained hard, even with steroids if he didn’t have any skill he would have got creamed

I think it’s a fallacy to put down someones skill level or say winning or losing is down to them using steroids, I have known a couple of pro fighters who have thought about taking PEDs, and none of them thought about it for the reasons most think. Usually its to help them get over an injury quicker so they can get back into training.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What he looks like is irrelevant he was fighting full contact and did it for a number of years in any venue he could find, even fought in the UFC in his 50’s, did you see the knock downs and the knock out at the start, hardly point sparring

Points fighting is full contact at the black belt level. What's going on here is not significantly different from what Ron was doing in the upright. Ron was just following up more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SEn76cE9TQ



As for the steroids point, he’s not that big he was in great shape but then from everything I have heard he was a great athlete and trained hard, even with steroids if he didn’t have any skill he would have got creamed

Steroid use was different back then. Remember Arnold only weight 230. Lots of guys on the juice weigh under 200.



I think it’s a fallacy to put down someones skill level or say winning or losing is down to them using steroids,

It was clearly steroids in that case.


I have known a couple of profighters who have thought about taking PEDs, and none of them thought about it for the reasons most think. Usually its to help them get over an injury quicker so they can get back into training.
Lifetime natural and not testing positive on competition day are two different things. Whatever the reason it give a competitive advantage on competition day.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ron was never on roids, it just wasn't an option for MA in those days as it was for BB.
He was just in great shape, like Lewis and others.
Ron was always out there, as were so many others, fighting FC where ever they could find it.
The fact that he was such a fighter and so well respected is why Royce beat him with such respect.

[lkfmdc]

TCMA tournaments used to look like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6aUqvqIDB8&feature=related



glorified kickboxing :D

[lkfmdc]

ron van cleef in full contact mode,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquDpDJTVHU&feature=player_embedded

MMA knucklehead :D

[lkfmdc]

Points fighting is full contact at the black belt level. What's going on here is not significantly different from what Ron was doing in the upright. Ron was just following up more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SEn76cE9TQ



with every post you make who and what you are more clear

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ron was never on roids, it just wasn't an option for MA in those days as it was for BB.


You'll have to explain that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

with every post you make who and what you are more clear

Back to being a troll? LOL... It's pretty easy to see when someone is selling out to land a single shot. That's pretty much what ron is doing.

[lkfmdc]

Back to being a troll?



I forget, are you the pot or the kettle? :rolleyes:

You put up two HORRIBLE examples of kicking

Now you are trying to equate point fighting to high level fighting

I guess many of us realize you can't perceive the differences, so it's just **** funny watching you continue, clueless how you are coming off

:D

[Snipsky]

Now you are trying to equate point fighting to high level fighting

Point fighting is nothing more than a game of tag. :eek:

[lkfmdc]

I trained briefly with Joe Lewis. I was training with one of his students in Washington DC.

When "full contact" began in the US, those guys doing the sort of "point fighting" that humble just put up thought everyone would die from side kicks, etc

Obviously, people didn't die because they were side kicked (or punched)

Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny the Jet all went from point to full contact BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE MORE REAL. I believe Don Wilson also started out in point

However, tons of the "legends" of point fighting were seriously embarassed when they tried to do it with real contact

There was also the Canadian (name escapes me at the moment) who was a green belt because he refused to learn kata/forms who KO'ed over 25 "black belts"

[HumbleWCGuy]

I forget, are you the pot or the kettle? :rolleyes:

You put up two HORRIBLE examples of kicking
Machida wins with just those types of kicks. :rolleyes: Not to mention guys like Anderson Siliva an others... :rolleyes: Everything doesn't have to be a half a$$ed knock of version of MT to be good.



Now you are trying to equate point fighting to high level fighting

I guess many of us realize you can't perceive the differences, so it's just **** funny watching you continue, clueless how you are coming off
:D
:rolleyes: If you can't see the similarities then, I don't know what to tell you.

[lkfmdc]

Point fighting is nothing more than a game of tag. :eek:

Exactly!.....

see right above this (also)

[lkfmdc]

Machida wins with just those types of kicks. :rolleyes: Not to mention guys like Anderson Siliva an others... :



The "machida is a karate guy" thing is already wearing thin, especially after his two fights with Muay Thai trained "shogun"

If you can't see Anderson Silva kicking like a Muay Thai person, NOT a karate person, wow, you really ARE BLIND :rolleyes:




:rolleyes: If you can't see the similarities then, I don't know what to tell you.

I've said it before, TCMA must rot the brain, you're another great example :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Not to mention guys like Anderson Siliva an others...



You think Anderson silva does NOt fight with Muay Thai?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1K6NZNVuHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC0mdnnnC94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V6OWb3w4dk

:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

There was also the Canadian (name escapes me at the moment) who was a green belt because he refused to learn kata/forms who KO'ed over 25 "black belts"

If you keep summoning Sanjuro Ronin like this, the legend says he will roundhouse kick you into the next dimension and impregnate all your women!:eek::D

[lkfmdc]

If you keep summoning Sanjuro Ronin like this, the legend says he will roundhouse kick you into the next dimension and impregnate all your women!:eek::D

No, not Sanjuro :D

He was a French Canadian, never got more than a green belt, was a multiple time world champion in full contact rules

[Snipsky]

I've said it before, TCMA must rot the brain, you're another great example

NOPE. TCMA doesn't rot the brain. It's ALL about who is doing TCMA. Imagine TCMA in the future if ALL the students trained like or are MMA people.....

TCMA in the hands of pacifists, armchair warriors, hippies,tree huggers, and the INTELLECTUAL class is what rots the TCMA brain. all else are just called BRUTES, BULLIES, THUGS, RUFFIANS,GANGSTERS, TROUBLE MAKERS.......but these are the ones out there fighting with the system over "intellectualizing it"........

Big inhale........short exhale....oh well. :(

[HumbleWCGuy]

The "machida is a karate guy" thing is already wearing thin, especially after his two fights with Muay Thai trained "shogun"

If you can't see Anderson Silva kicking like a Muay Thai person, NOT a karate person, wow, you really ARE BLIND :rolleyes:

So Machida has trouble with one Muay Thai fighter and his stuff doesn't work? Yet nearly every UFC fighter he has fought is MT trained. By that ratonale, San Da doesn't work because I am sure that there is atleast one MT fighter that beats your guys. :D

Silva has a TKD black belt and he uses it all the time. You are clueless:rolleyes:

Duke Roufus is a another guy who flat out does not use pure MT. He use a lot of TMA kicking and so on. But.. let the excuses begin...




I've said it before, TCMA must rot the brain, you're another great example :rolleyes:
If you are going to nut hug MT so hard then you should just start doing that. Of course, then you wouldn't be able to set yourself up as the foremost authority. That's what all your crap is really about dude. You just want to be the expert. :D LOL

[lkfmdc]

Duke Roufus is a another guy who flat out does not use pure MT.



Duke Roufus, who spent years in Thailand, fights/fought Muay Thai and teaches/runs a Muay Thai gym

(who I also happen to know)

Dude, whatever fantasy land you are living in, maybe go play there. You are clowning yourself, and apparently don't even realize it!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

NOPE. TCMA doesn't rot the brain. It's ALL about who is doing TCMA. Imagine TCMA in the future if ALL the students trained like or are MMA people.....

TCMA in the hands of pacifists, armchair warriors, hippies,tree huggers, and the INTELLECTUAL class is what rots the TCMA brain. all else are just called BRUTES, BULLIES, THUGS, RUFFIANS,GANGSTERS, TROUBLE MAKERS.......but these are the ones out there fighting with the system over "intellectualizing it"........

Big inhale........short exhale....oh well. :(

Give this man a cigar, well said!!;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Duke Roufus, who spent years in Thailand, fights/fought Muay Thai and teaches/runs a Muay Thai gym

(who I also happen to know)

Dude, whatever fantasy land you are living in, maybe go play there. You are clowning yourself, and apparently don't even realize it!
Clearly, you haven't watched him fight nor are you aware of his karate background.

[lkfmdc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Roufus



He is one of the most recognizable striking coaches in North America, and is considered to be one of the top trainers of Muay Thai outside of Thailand.





http://roufusport.com/aboutus.php



Roufusport Martial Arts Academy offers specialized group classes and private lessons in contemporary Muay Thai



He sure thinks he's teaching Muay Thai
http://www.amazon.com/Instructional-Amazing-Volumes-Kickboxing-Fighting/dp/B000VMBG82

:rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

Give this man a cigar, well said!!

Thanks bro, but seriously. thats been my biggest gripe in the "KUNG FU" world for the longest time. the WU DE thing was very appealing to the "INTELLECTUALS" and the fighters were like "EFF NO" I'm kicking his ass"......

What needs to take place is for some THUGS, BULLIES,GANGSTERS,HOOLIGANS,ETC. to start becoming a little more intellectual and push out this **** tree hugging types who would rather embrace LOVE within a fighting art. WTF!!!!!!!

sorry had to vent on that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Roufus





http://roufusport.com/aboutus.php




He sure thinks he's teaching Muay Thai
http://www.amazon.com/Instructional-Amazing-Volumes-Kickboxing-Fighting/dp/B000VMBG82

:rolleyes:

Watch the fights. However, you have already demonstrated an inability to pull any information from the action. :D
You should go study with him so that you can learn something of value since by your ratonale San Da doesn't work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You'll have to explain that.

In the 60's and 70's and even a bit into the 80's, roids was something BB took and even high level pro and amat athletes ( olympic level).
It really wasn't an option for the non-pro "saturday night" MA fighter.

[lkfmdc]

You should go study with him



I know Duke pretty well, already said that, but apparently you can't read the English language

perhaps

http://www.mackinacmedia.com/arsimages/braindamage/bdcover.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I trained briefly with Joe Lewis. I was training with one of his students in Washington DC.

When "full contact" began in the US, those guys doing the sort of "point fighting" that humble just put up thought everyone would die from side kicks, etc

Obviously, people didn't die because they were side kicked (or punched)

Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny the Jet all went from point to full contact BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE MORE REAL. I believe Don Wilson also started out in point

However, tons of the "legends" of point fighting were seriously embarassed when they tried to do it with real contact

There was also the Canadian (name escapes me at the moment) who was a green belt because he refused to learn kata/forms who KO'ed over 25 "black belts"


That was Jean-Yves Therioult I believe.

[lkfmdc]

That was Jean-Yves Therioult I believe.

BINGO!

man, it was floating around in my mind, but I couldn't remember his name

[sanjuro_ronin]

BINGO!

man, it was floating around in my mind, but I couldn't remember his name

His boxing was superb and he was from a "ju-jutsu" club in Quebec, I forget which one.
His stache was awesome !!

He was world MW champion for years.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In the 60's and 70's and even a bit into the 80's, roids was something BB took and even high level pro and amat athletes ( olympic level).
It really wasn't an option for the non-pro "saturday night" MA fighter.

That's just not the case. I know plenty of guys in their 50's and 60's who got steroids pretty easy at the local gyms all through the 70's. They weren't illegal to possess then.

Besides... We aren't talking about local athletes. We are talking about a pro who I believe grew up in California where I know for sure that that they were easy to get.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I will not discredit any TMA for their kicks, however, the major difference I have experienced is that power kicks like those found in Muay Thai and kickboxing do damage as compared to the quick, snap style kicks found in point fighting.

Not that these kicks can not be trained to have power, because they can. Hook kicks, ax kicks, even crescent kicks can be trained in a manner that make them much more viable to full contact fighting and not quick little snaps followed by a loud kia with posturing and hands at the waist (fu**ck point fighting up it's stupid a**ss)

It's not the kicks, but the context in which they are used.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I know Duke pretty well, already said that, but apparently you can't read the English language

perhaps



His guys banging out your fighters at events isn't knowing him. Maybe he would recognize you if he saw you? So what dude. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's just not the case. I know plenty of guys in their 50's and 60's who got steroids pretty easy at the local gyms all through the 70's. They weren't illegal to possess then.

Guys in the MA?
I am not sure what circles you hung around but that would most certainly be the minority I would think.
In regards to Ron, unless you KNOW he took roids, what you are doing is basically slander so I would suggest you either cite your sources or, well...drop it.

[lkfmdc]

blah blah desperately trying to be clever blah blah showing I am clueless blah blah blah


http://www.brady-quinn.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/My-Poster.jpg

[HumbleWCGuy]

Guys in the MA?
I am not sure what circles you hung around but that would most certainly be the minority I would think.
In regards to Ron, unless you KNOW he took roids, what you are doing is basically slander so I would suggest you either cite your sources or, well...drop it.

Ron was born in NY and Worked in California. He had access to Roids. I am sure that Ron lifted some with that build.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will not discredit any TMA for their kicks, however, the major difference I have experienced is that power kicks like those found in Muay Thai and kickboxing do damage as compared to the quick, snap style kicks found in point fighting.

Not that these kicks can not be trained to have power, because they can. Hook kicks, ax kicks, even crescent kicks can be trained in a manner that make them much more viable to full contact fighting and not quick little snaps followed by a loud kia with posturing and hands at the waist (fu**ck point fighting up it's stupid a**ss)

It's not the kicks, but the context in which they are used.

Context is, indeed, king.
Also lets not forget that snap kicks are used for one thing and thrust kicks ofr another.
EX:
The snap roundhouse kick with minmal hip is used for an "in close" kick, in punching range, where as the wider and more sweeping round kick like those used by Thais is more of a distance kick.
This is NOT to say that it CAN't Be use din close, it is just more ideally used at a distance.
Same for the front snap vs the front thrust or the "teep".

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.brady-quinn.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/My-Poster.jpg

I am just telling the truth... You can't prove any different. If you were out hobnobbing with the greats then you wouldn't be laying on this board 24/7.

[lkfmdc]

I am just telling the truth...



http://www.dreamstime.com/guy-laughing-at-you-thumb1094641.jpg

you don't seem to realize you have become the laughing stock of the forum

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ron was born in NY and Worked in California. He had access to Roids. I am sure that Ron lifted some with that build.

That build?
Seriously, that build was good and you can see the great genetics but there is no reason to believe roids because of it.
I think you are way off there, sorry.

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.dreamstime.com/guy-laughing-at-you-thumb1094641.jpg

you don't seem to realize that I have become the laughing stock of the forum

I wonder if Duke Roufus lays on a karate board 24/7 trying to convince people that he is the ultimate source of knowledge?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Context is, indeed, king.
Also lets not forget that snap kicks are used for one thing and thrust kicks ofr another.
EX:
The snap roundhouse kick with minmal hip is used for an "in close" kick, in punching range, where as the wider and more sweeping round kick like those used by Thais is more of a distance kick.
This is NOT to say that it CAN't Be use din close, it is just more ideally used at a distance.
Same for the front snap vs the front thrust or the "teep".

Another thing to add is some snap kicks can be trained to produce serious power. I remember you stating in your Taekwondo days your lead leg had knockout type of power, and i have trained with and sparred guys who had this as well. Different things work for different people. Much like when people tell me ax kicks are useless and don't work and I show them a video of Andy Hug.:)

[Mattador]

I read something about steroids a few pages back. Let us be honest here about
UFC fighters. Most of them probably dope just like in every other competitive sport accept for golf and pool.

Until they establish Olympic style drug testing we will never know the truth. If two competitors are equally matched you cannot deny that steroids will give one an edge. Eg: Chael Sonnen vs Anderson Silva. Chael is a great wrestler but I believe the steroids allowed him to beat Silva for five rounds until Silva submitted him.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That build?
Seriously, that build was good and you can see the great genetics but there is no reason to believe roids because of it.
I think you are way off there, sorry.

We will have to agree to disagree. He seemed a bit bigger in that video. I am not saying that he was always on. He was pretty slender a lot of the time.

[Mattador]

Arguing about who is on steroids or not is kinda not worth arguing. Without access to Ron for questioning or his drug test results you will never know.

Just assume that he was and let it go.

[Frost]

Humble can you not see the inconsistency of saying on the one hand cung lee (after I posted a clip of him) isn’t a good example of TCMA kicking because he does TKD, then posting a clip of TKD kicking to show good TCMA kicking (im not even going to mention the other kick it was that bad) then arguing Ron isn’t a good example of TCMA in a full contact event because he did point sparring…………news flash he is TCMA and it was a full contact event, how does that NOT make it TCMA in a full contact event? If you can do better please show us

As for the roids thing again nothing screams to me he was on them, I don’t have any prove he does and since you bench over 400 squat over 600 and are big yourself we should ask do you take them?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Humble can you not see the inconsistency of saying on the one hand cung lee (after I posted a clip of him) isn’t a good example of TCMA kicking because he does TKD, then posting a clip of TKD kicking to show good TCMA kicking (im not even going to mention the other kick it was that bad)

I thought that you would say that. The videos that I found were just one's that appeared consistent with what I believe to be correct TCMA kicking. Admittedly the JKD kick wasn't a great example (which I said), but it had some elements that are worth thinking about. He did a good job of generating a good amount of power via speed. But, yea, there are a lot of shenanigans in that video.




then arguing Ron isn’t a good example of TCMA in a full contact event because he did point sparring…………news flash he is TCMA and it was a full contact event, how does that NOT make it TCMA in a full contact event? If you can do better please show us

I just said that he looked like he was points fighting. He was a product of the time. That's all I was trying to point out. I didn't say that it was good or bad.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Humble can you not see the inconsistency of saying on the one hand cung lee (after I posted a clip of him) isn’t a good example of TCMA kicking because he does TKD,
It would have been more correct if I would have just said that he wasn't demonstrating things in those highlights that represented TCMA by my understanding Which is fine. I don't really care if TCMA guys necessarily go out and represent TCMA. However, I think that people with a TCMA background will find certain things help them in full-contact and they will continue to use them in the ring.

[Snipsky]

It would have been more correct if I would have just said that he wasn't demonstrating things in those highlights that represented TCMA by my understanding Which is fine.

I study kung fu. can you tell me what is a kung fu kick? or how TCMA is supposed to kick? i'm confused. i thought what ever kick works the best for you to achieve maximum power and speed is what you should do or work on.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I study kung fu. can you tell me what is a kung fu kick? or how TCMA is supposed to kick? i'm confused. i thought what ever kick works the best for you to achieve maximum power and speed is what you should do or work on.

I agree. There is no one kick that a TCMA practitioner has to rely upon. I learned every kind of kick from the snappiest TKD looking thing to the heaviest "thai" kick in TCMA. I think that there is just a standard basic kicking method that exemplifies TCMA, but it/we are certainly not limited to one kick or method.

I was just trying to discuss what would typically be taught to a beginner in TCMA.

[Snipsky]

I agree. There is no one kick that a TCMA practitioner has to rely upon. I learned every kind of kick from the snappiest TKD looking thing to the heaviest "thai" kick in TCMA. I think that there is just a standard basic kicking method that exemplifies TCMA, but it/we are certainly not limited to one kick or method.

I was just trying to discuss what would typically be taught to a beginner in TCMA.

i feel you. the only thing that matters when kicking is if its effective, fast, and powerful. IMHO, nothing else matters. we all have kicks. they change tho' when it comes to actual combat. People who have fought know "I don't wanna kick like this because...." so they adapt whatever kicking method that matches them.

Ok i'm out of this convo cause i only wanted to know if you thought there was a specific way or element that says something is a kung fu kick. peace. :)

[Lucas]

CMA, as I learned, generally will chamber the side kick differ from other styles. The tkd and karate side kick I learn chamber the sidekick a diff way

[HumbleWCGuy]

CMA, as I learned, generally will chamber the side kick differ from other styles. The tkd and karate side kick I learn chamber the sidekick a diff way

I learned 2 ways in TCMA. I know that Shotokan has a funny little method all it's own.

[GeneChing]

London Knife Attacker Identified; Public Lauds Narwhal Tusk Takedown (https://www.npr.org/2019/11/30/783850385/london-knife-attacker-identified-public-lauds-narwhal-tusk-takedown)
November 30, 20192:04 PM ET
ALEXANDER TUERK

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/11/30/ap_193344455682961-3a88c1462c1e9d0ab33ccbccad05ecb120b7ca34-s1600-c85.jpg
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson (second from right), Home Secretary Priti Patel (front center) and Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick (far left) attend the scene in central London on Saturday.
Steve Parsons/AP

Metropolitan Police in London have confirmed that 28-year-old Usman Khan was the attacker who killed two people and wounded three others with a knife on London Bridge Friday before police shot and killed him.

Khan had been living in the Staffordshire area, north of Birmingham, police said. They said Khan had been known to authorities in Britain, having been convicted in 2012 of "terrorism offenses."

According to a 2012 article in The Guardian, Khan had been part of a nine-person plot to bomb the London Stock Exchange and build a training camp for terrorists. Although he had originally been sentenced to prison for public protection — an indefinite term until a parole board decided he was no longer a threat — his sentence was revised in 2013 to 16 years with an eight-year minimum, The Guardian reported.

Police said they are not actively seeking any other individuals connected to Saturday's attack and have confirmed that it was being investigated as a terrorist incident.

"[Khan] had been released a year ago on the provision that he had agreed to wear an electronic tag, submit to curfews and restrictions to his movements," Lucy Fisher, defense editor of The Times in London, said in an interview on NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday morning. Khan had been released on license, Britain's equivalent of parole, serving only eight years of his 16-year sentence.

"And it was while he was subject to these conditions that he performed this horrific attack yesterday," Fisher said.

Police said they were called to Fishmonger's Hall shortly before 2 p.m. local time, where Khan had attended a conference on criminal justice and prisoner rehabilitation, called "Learning Together," run by the University of Cambridge's Institute of Criminology. Khan had been wearing a fake suicide vest, police said, adding that the attack started inside Fishmonger's Hall. Khan stabbed "a number of people" inside the hall, police said, and The Times reported that one of the two killed died inside the hall.

"I am devastated to learn that today's hateful attack on London Bridge may have been targeted at staff, students and alumni," University of Cambridge Vice Chancellor Stephen Toope said in a statement posted online.

Police said Khan then left the building and moved to London Bridge, where he continued his attack before being apprehended by bystanders, one armed with a narwhal tusk, another with a fire extinguisher. Videos of the attack posted online show Khan being sprayed by a fire extinguisher as another man jabs forward with the tusk.

As Khan is tackled to the ground, a third individual wrests the knife out of Khan's hands and backs away, with police closing in with their guns out. They drag a bystander off Khan, then shoot and kill Khan. London Bridge and the surrounding area remain closed on Saturday, and police are asking anyone who was present at Fishmonger's Hall to come forward with any information.

Amy Coop, a director who attended the Learning Together conference, tweeted that the tusk, 5 feet in length and one of a pair flanking the entrance doors, had been taken off the wall by a man who rushed out of Fishmonger's Hall to follow Khan.


Amy Coop
@theamycoop
A guy who was with us at Fishmongers Hall took a 5’ narwhale tusk from the wall and went out to confront the attacker. You can see him standing over the man (with what looks like a white pole) in the video. We were trying to help victims inside but that man’s a hero #LondonBridge

50.6K
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The Times reported that the tusk-wielder was a Polish man who had worked at Fishmonger's Hall, "setting up events and managing porters." The identity of the other individual with the fire extinguisher, or the origin of the extinguisher, is not known.

Those individuals who intervened to stop the attacker were lauded by both the public and British leadership, earning recognition from Queen Elizabeth II on down.

Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, said on BBC Breakfast that the civilians who intervened had no idea whether the suicide vest was real.


Sadiq Khan
✔
@SadiqKhan
I am in awe of the people who ran towards danger to keep us all safe. The bravery of the emergency services and ordinary Londoners is incredible. @bbcbreakfast:

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"They ran towards him, to stop him from hurting other people. And I'm so proud, and we should all be really proud, of these people," Khan said.

In an interview on Sky News, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said that those individuals represent "the best of our country."

Metropolitan Police Chief Cressida Dick echoed Johnson and Khan's sentiments in an interview near London Bridge Saturday morning.

"It's a terrible thing that people found themselves in that position, but as we saw the worst of humankind, we also saw the very best of human spirit and of London," Dick said.

Friday's attack reminded many of the 2017 London terrorist attacks. In March 2017, a car jumped the sidewalk on Westminster Bridge, killing five before the driver jumped out and stabbed a police officer to death. The driver was then shot and killed by another police officer.

In June 2017, a van plowed through pedestrians on London Bridge and crashed outside a pub on the south bank of the Thames, a short walk from Fishmonger's Hall. The rampage continued as three attackers got out of the van, pursuing and stabbing people, killing eight and wounding 48. The attackers had also been wearing fake suicide vests and were killed by police. ISIS had claimed responsibility for the June attacks.

With the country's general election scheduled on Dec. 12 a showdown between Johnson's Conservative Party and Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, Britain's leadership and justice system now grapple with the question: How was a convicted terrorist released from prison eight years early, and how was he able to carry out this attack with an ankle bracelet monitoring his movements?

"For the Conservatives, there will be questions for the home secretary about why, only three weeks ago, she reduced the terror threat in the U.K. from severe to substantial," the Times' Fisher said, adding that cuts to police numbers could have had an impact on their surveillance of Khan.

And in the Labour Party, Corbyn has faced scrutiny over his vague stances on questions of national security, said Fisher. "This week, he was asked in an interview six times whether he would ever be prepared to give the order to kill a terrorist if that terrorist could not be safely apprehended," she said. "Six times he refused to say if he would give that kill order."

"In the minds of voters, there are questions about how secure the nation would be in his hands if he became prime minister," Fisher said.

Alexander Tuerk is an intern at Here & Now.


I'm posting this on the What Stands Out About TCMAists in The Ring? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?61158-What-Stands-Out-About-TCMAists-in-The-Ring) because when I searched 'narwhal', David's post there popped. Also posting it on Successful Street Applications (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49825-Successful-Street-Applications) because 'narwhal fu'.




If I had said "when does the narwhal bacon" then the correct answer would be "midnight".

[David Jamieson]

Hmmn, go figure. Some ancient reddit reference there. :D