Rate/critique these Baji performances.

[omarthefish]

http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/56115456-2099658804.html

or alternately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5G8d8KfftQ

Specifically, I am looking for comparisons between the 2nd and 3rd performances in the clip. It's the same form done by 2 different students of the same teacher.

0:00 - 0:55 Introduction in Chinese only
0:55 - 1:30 Baji Xiaojia
1:30 - 2:30 Baji Dajia
2:30 - 3:30 Baji Dajia
3:30 - 3:55 Baji Sabre

Again, I mainly want comparative feedback on the 2nd and 3rd performances.

[Violent Designs]

From what I see,

Your movements seem more forceful (explosive?).

The other guy's seemed smoother but less forceful. Seemed like he played the form faster too?

This is from my non-expert opinion.

Don't know what it's "suppose" to be like, but this is what I can tel you.

[omarthefish]

I'm trying to sort out my own subjective critique from the thing so I don't want to really put my own thoughts out there until I've seen what it apparently looks like from the outside.

The two of us have our own strengths and weaknesses and both have very different goals for training so, of course, very different results. In any case, I am too close to the thing to be objective. So thanks for your initial input.


...Seemed like he played the form faster too?
Might be the editing. As a general rule, I always finish the form about 5-10 seconds faster than he does. I actually made a significant effort to stretch it out for the show but not by slowing down. I just try to remember to pause longer on each of the "photo ops". Sometimes I even count to 3 in my head before moving to the next move. It's irrelevant martially but helps you score higher in comps and you tend to get better pictures in the media if you sort of indicate "take a picture....now" at certain points. Just by timing the thing though, I still run it a fair bit faster than he does.

[bawang]

your arms are wobbly

doing form aggresively looks good only if you look strong like your teacher

[omarthefish]

You're right. I know my form is too loose. I always work for power. I'd rather be strong and ugly than beautiful and delicate.

What about the other guy doing the same form as me?








==============================
btw, teacher is 70 years old in that clip.

[YouKnowWho]

I'd rather be strong and ugly than beautiful and delicate.

I don't train forms any more. If I still do, I prefer to train my form like a mad man than a nice guy.

[bawang]

You're right. I know my form is too loose. I always work for power.

you are performing a form in front of public, why the hell wouldnt you want to look good

[omarthefish]

Although I often have to perform in public, that is not the reason I train. It's just something I have to do in order to promote the style and to support our organization. Since I don't like to train with performance in mind, my performance suffers. But since I do have to do it from time to time, yes, I would like to look better doing it.


I don't train forms any more. If I still do, I prefer to train my form like a mad man than a nice guy.
I do train them a lot but the madman part works for me too. It's only lately I am resigning myself to the fact that I have to make them look better for reasons I still haven't mentioned yet.

[Lucas]

i have to make them look better for reasons i still haven't mentioned yet.

chicks!!!!!!!!!!

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duamnzfKI3E&feature=related

go to 4:20

this is REAL POWER. makes ur baji look like a dericate rittle frower.

[omarthefish]

lol.

Actually, I'd say he looks pretty strong but his movement does not strike me as very powerful. I'd say that he looks like a delicate little frower next to this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5G8d8KfftQ) from about 1:05 on towards the end of that set. :p

================================================== =
So no one but Violent has got anything to say about my Chinese compadre sharing the stage with me? I was really hoping for more of a comparison than just an straight up critique. :o


chicks!!!!!!!!!!
If only it were that simple. . .

Only top flight form performances can earn me true acceptance into the Xi'an MA community. If I fight well, the locals will tend to see me as a foreign challenger and will not necessarily give credit to my Baji training or to my Shifu. They will tend to want to say that "foreigners are just build stronger and make better fighters..." or they will refer to the boxing or other western fight training they imagine I have. (I don't) Only solid form performances, especially if I can learn to capture the Chinese aesthetic on these things, will make them feel like I am "one of them". It sends a message that I honour and respect their culture. Winning fights wins me "street cred" back home but locally (in Xi'an) it makes them see me as more of a threat.

It's a shame and I think it's not even a fully conscious reaction on their part but this is my intuition about why I need to do so many performances and forms comps even though my teacher is more of a fighter by nature. It's politics.

[bawang]

will make them feel like I am "one of them".

brandon tunks is "one of them". david ross is "one of them". you will never be "one of them" because ur perception of chinese people is right out of a fukin comic

you backed out of a fight with a WOMAN. and you wanna play big bad foreigner in china?

[omarthefish]

if u want to look good then stop wobbling ur dam arms
Yeah yeah, I got it! This is still improvement. 3 or 4 years ago I was getting feedback that my f'ing head was wobbling. Arms, I can fix that.


brandon tunks is "one of them". david ross is "one of them".
Who is Brandon Tunks?

Why is David Ross "one of them" and I am not? I'm nobody in the USA but in Xi'an I am pretty well known. This is not me being defensive. I honestly want to know. My teacher treats me a lot more strictly than he does to his Chinese students and it's mainly because there is a different standard for me than for them. For demonstrations like this one, I get extra credit but for competition I get penalized. They like me for a demo the same way they like an 8 year old kid doing really good looking Shaolin. I'm a gimmick. If I am actually competing against them though...


you will never be "one of them"
Why not and should I care? You said that David Ross crossed the barrier. What do you think he did that made it possible?

I'm not sure how important it is to me but my Shifu cares about this issue. I can see that he is often strict because he is coaching me on how to be accepted by Chinese society. I see why it matters while I am in Xi'an but am not clear if it matters in the long run.

[bawang]

I honestly want to know.
i dont know why after so many years in china you still arent accepted, thats your problem. but doing forms isnt gonna earn you respect among the orientals like some movie. it shows you are still living in a tiny expat bubble.


I'm a gimmick.
theres your answer



five years after that john springer debacle i gave u some doubt. even last year when you showed that lame sparring video i didnt say anything. this is gone way too fukin far.

[omarthefish]

it shows you are still living in a tiny expat bubble.
I kinda doubt it.

I do not have a single ex-pat friend with me here in China. I am my teacher's only foreign student in Xi'an and don't even have any English speaking friends. I think maybe the barrier is just higher inside of China than it is in N.Y. where the local Chinese are living among American's all the time.

The gimmick thing is there but that doens't mean it's impossible to overcome. I am just like a black dude in the USA in the 70's. I have to be twice as good to get the same level of recognition.

[bawang]

i dont understand how after 3 years in china you cant do an air punch. what the hell were u doing?

[aussie1981]

Don't worry about it mate. My teacher likes to put power into us Westerners to **** the chinese off and he's from Sichuan, they like to think they the only ones who can get it so any recocnition you get is well deserved.

[omarthefish]

It's all good bro. I get plenty of recognition around town. It's just that the more you get, the more people will start to talk behind your back. It's one thing to come to China and train, they love that. Just don't have the temerity to get any real skills is all. I think folks are much more comfortable being supportive when they can be kind of patronizing at the same time.


i dont understand how after 3 years in china you cant do an air punch. what the hell were u doing?

Getting mucho massagee! Soooo cheap! :eek:

[Drake]

I had no idea I was walking into this train wreck...

[Violent Designs]

Yeah yeah, I got it! This is still improvement. 3 or 4 years ago I was getting feedback that my f'ing head was wobbling. Arms, I can fix that.


Who is Brandon Tunks?

Why is David Ross "one of them" and I am not? I'm nobody in the USA but in Xi'an I am pretty well known. This is not me being defensive. I honestly want to know. My teacher treats me a lot more strictly than he does to his Chinese students and it's mainly because there is a different standard for me than for them. For demonstrations like this one, I get extra credit but for competition I get penalized. They like me for a demo the same way they like an 8 year old kid doing really good looking Shaolin. I'm a gimmick. If I am actually competing against them though...


Why not and should I care? You said that David Ross crossed the barrier. What do you think he did that made it possible?

I'm not sure how important it is to me but my Shifu cares about this issue. I can see that he is often strict because he is coaching me on how to be accepted by Chinese society. I see why it matters while I am in Xi'an but am not clear if it
matters in the long run.

You will NEVER be "one of them" no matter what I say, what I think, what someone else says or what they or you think.

That's just the matter of fact. You are white, just like I am Chinese. I can never be "one of them" white people. :P

Learning and absorbing the culture is one thing, just like I have lived and absorbed Western culture for many years now. But ultimately I am not a Westerner.

This is not a bad thing, this is just reality.

As for Chinese culture, most of the 1.3 billion people are not that "civilized." Most are not highly educated. Therefore why do you feel the need to become more or less "accepted" by them? They are not scholars. They don't matter.

Bawang said very good once, Chinese martial arts are NOT the height or pinnacle of Chinese culture. That would be scholarly knowledge, not knowledge of violence.

There has NEVER been a tradition of "warrior-scholar" in China, that is a strictly Japanese development.

So don't worry about what other martial artists think of you, in Chinese culture, being a martial artist means jack crap anyway. Today less so but because martial arts has BECOME more of a gimmick already.

[rett]

Only solid form performances, especially if I can learn to capture the Chinese aesthetic on these things, will make them feel like I am "one of them". It sends a message that I honour and respect their culture.

Interesting reflection, thanks. It made me think of advice I've heard that if you live in a foreign country its more important to have good pronunciation of their language than good grammar and vocabulary. The pronunciation strikes a deeper chord somehow.

Also perhaps the aesthetic of movement performance is not something that can be willed. It has to be steered from the heart. (which is not to take away from all the hard technical work)

But maybe in the end everyone is just human. Speaking as a long term expat (20 years) I think you have to just stand up and be you. Make people acknowledge you as different but ok. The foreigner Baji guy. But trying to internalize your host country's feelings and attitudes is a step on the way.

Hope I'm not sounding preachy. I can't comment on your Baji in technical terms but I like watching it and think you're on a really cool journey.

[omarthefish]

On assimilating . . .

It's kind of interesting coming full circle. See when I first got here back about 10 or 11 years ago, I tried to really "go Chinese" for about 6 months. Then I completely abandoned it. Not because I gave up but because, one, it was starting to wear me down but, two, and much more significantly, I realised that even the Chinese didn't want me to act more "Chinese". Most local Chinese feel f'ing suffocated by Confucian culture and the very reason they like me is because I am so "American". As much as I was trying to learn about Chinese culture, they were trying to "be American" even harder.

So I decided nearly 10 years ago to do us all a favour and just be me. :)

Oddly though, I am starting to get far enough along with this Baji thing that it is being required of me that I learn to become vastly more Chinese in certain ways. Those folks wanting to learn what it is to be an American were young people, college students and the like. By Shifu and his peers have no such pretensions. They are fiercely proud of their culture and as a bunch of 老前辈/respected seniors in the society, I am expected to interact with them very differently from how I would with my students, friends or co-workers.


That's just the matter of fact. You are white, just like I am Chinese. I can never be "one of them" white people. :P
Of course I can never become Chinese, nor would I want to. I put "one of them" in quotes for a reason. I will always be the foreign guy who does Bajiquan. I can become "one of them" in that I can gain true acceptance into their little martial arts community. It's possible for the fact that I am a foreigner will be less important to them than the fact that I have learned kung fu to a certain level from a certain master.

You may be Chinese but, in America, almost no one I know would ever introduce you as their "Chinese friend". You would just be "their friend".

At least my teacher has long accepted me this way. It took him a few years to adjust and he still feels that there is a cultural barrier and even a linguistic barrier as I can't recognition or quote much of say, the Dao De Jin in the original language or because I miss a lot of historical references (working on both those issues but that's another story....)

Anyways, for those who say "I will never be fully accepted as on of their own . . . "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIlzhvYZN84

Skip to about 1:20 to where Shifu talks about this exact issue. ;)

[Violent Designs]

Accept in personal relationship is not the same thing as integration into a foreign society.

At least that is what I think.

My best friend is not even Chinese, yet it is quite clear no matter how good our friendship or how much he understands Chinese culture he cannot be fully integrated into our society/culture, and vice versa.

[SPJ]

1 xing jia shape/form frame: practice to have the right body structure and smooth transition. speed and power are not important.

2. jin jia power frame: practice to harness and express/release power, we may harness slowly and release suddenly. correctness is most important. we may not release 100%, unless we practice against pads/bags etc. ususally 3 to 5%

we have to show the properties of the jin

for example, in tong bei, they are leng tan chui kuai yin or cold spring crisp rapid hard

in ba ji, kang meng chen wen or steel ferocius sink steady

sinking the whole posture is most important or chen zui jin

each posture has stressing certain jin practice. ding bao ti dan kua chan etc

in general

kui zun heng rapid accurate cold

ba ji xiao jia is gong jia or both xing and jin jia practice, supposedly slowly and suddenly fast,

ba ji da jia is to practice techniques, so rapid accurate and cold etc

---

:)

[omarthefish]

Accept in personal relationship is not the same thing as integration into a foreign society.

At least that is what I think.


Perhaps.

I think the only difference though is one of size. I've been fully accepted into my wife's family at least. I think her father still has the foreigner colored glasses but her mother has managed to accept me pretty purely as a person. I don't need to slip fully into the entire society either. It's just about establishing a certain kind of relationship with the Xi'an MA dudes. (西安市武术协会) It's a slow process but I've been at it for nearly a decade now.

The fact is, even in terms of just going on to bigger tournaments, competing amateur sanda or whatever, there's a lot of politics involved.

[lkfmdc]

Dear people

LEAVE ME THE **** OUT OF YOUR ARGUMENT

Thanks

and

Love and bullets

LKFMDC
- genuine Kung Fu Hero™
- Macedonian Grappler™

[omarthefish]

1 xing jia shape/form frame: practice to have the right body structure and smooth transition. speed and power are not important.
Exactly opposite of how I have been taught. Speed and power are way more important than a proper shape/frame. If you have speed and power but an ugly frame, you can still fight. If you have a very precise frame but no speed or power then you only have performance art. （花架子）


2. jin jia power frame: practice to harness and express/release power, we may harness slowly and release suddenly. correctness is most important. we may not release 100%, unless we practice against pads/bags etc. ususally 3 to 5%

You have a whole lifetime to refine the frame. Power training will get more difficult with time. 3-5%? :confused: More like 80-90%. 100% can harm the joints but just holding back a tiny bit takes care of that problem.

I appreciate your comments here SPJ but I think you need to keep in mind that the Wu Tan training method is only one way. Zhang Xiangwu didn't even practice Pigua. Our Baji is blended with Taijiquan instead. General Zhang taught a very different style from his brother Liu.

[rett]

Exactly opposite of how I have been taught. Speed and power are way more important than a proper shape/frame.

To some extent though, isn't slow shape and frame training a part of learning the right way to create power? Also maybe some initial conditioning and preparation of the limbs and joints to handle powerful strikes in the air?

[omarthefish]

To some extent though, isn't slow shape and frame training a part of learning the right way to create power?
Sure it's part of it. SPJ described a hierarchy. He said:

1 xing jia shape/form frame: practice to have the right body structure and smooth transition. speed and power are not important.

The assumption there is that power comes from proper form. I'd argue that proper form transmits power efficiently but that form is not the source of power, especially from a semi-internal style like Bajiquan. Power is supposed to come from the dan tian. The feet and legs offer an anchor to the earth and the arms direct it and all but Baji's distinctive power method is based on a dan tian "explosion". A full body shot of explosive power that starts at the dan tian and radiates out from there in all directions, hence the name "ba-ji" (meaning "the 8 cardinal directions) Baji fa-jin is supposed to be omni-directional.

Driving your movements from the dantian outwards (or occasionally "imploding" - explosively pulling everything in towards your center) is really really hard to do but if you can do it, then the specifics of where you place your pinky finger and whether your rear foot is turned in at a 30 degree angle or a 45 degree angle becomes almost irrelevant.

This focus on explosive power over precision and detail is what sets Baji apart from Shaolin. Everyone wants to be precise. Everyone wants to be powerful. Everyone has to prioritize their training.

[rett]

Thanks for the interesting description.

I'm guessing you are referring to the side of form training that is important for someone who really wants to compete in form. Pinky here, foot there...

I was thinking of the aspect of form training where you use the form as a kind of motion laboratory to practice the content of the form, if that makes sense. To practice skills in a dynamic setting. Then if your pinky is here or your foot is there... I agree, who cares as long as it doesn't negatively affect the function.

As a teacher at a seminar I attended said, the important parts of what you're doing... the judges at a wushu competition won't know what your'e doing anyway.

[SPJ]

Power is supposed to come from the dan tian. The feet and legs offer an anchor to the earth and the arms direct it and all but Baji's distinctive power method is based on a dan tian "explosion". A full body shot of explosive power that starts at the dan tian and radiates out from there in all directions, hence the name "ba-ji" (meaning "the 8 cardinal directions) Baji fa-jin is supposed to be omni-directional.



excellent post.

:cool:

[bawang]

Accept in personal relationship is not the same thing as integration into a foreign society.



lots of americans get intergrated into china. this guy is living in lala land. he thinks his incredible physical prowess is scaring the chinese.

looking at your rubber chicken neck and arms that make sine waves when you punch, you definitely make other baji people in china sh1t their pants. send fear into their innermost being.

[wenshu]

You're just mad cause he's in china stealing ur wiminz.

American wiminz laugh at your two incher? Move to China, all the native unshaved peasants will think you're King Kong.

[Northwind]

Again, I mainly want comparative feedback on the 2nd and 3rd performances.
Sorry, I have zero experience in baji and thus have zero room to critique practitioners of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure it's part of it. SPJ described a hierarchy. He said:

The assumption there is that power comes from proper form. I'd argue that proper form transmits power efficiently but that form is not the source of power, especially from a semi-internal style like Bajiquan. Power is supposed to come from the dan tian. The feet and legs offer an anchor to the earth and the arms direct it and all but Baji's distinctive power method is based on a dan tian "explosion". A full body shot of explosive power that starts at the dan tian and radiates out from there in all directions, hence the name "ba-ji" (meaning "the 8 cardinal directions) Baji fa-jin is supposed to be omni-directional.

Driving your movements from the dantian outwards (or occasionally "imploding" - explosively pulling everything in towards your center) is really really hard to do but if you can do it, then the specifics of where you place your pinky finger and whether your rear foot is turned in at a 30 degree angle or a 45 degree angle becomes almost irrelevant.

This focus on explosive power over precision and detail is what sets Baji apart from Shaolin. Everyone wants to be precise. Everyone wants to be powerful. Everyone has to prioritize their training.

All fine and well but always be warry of the "weakest link" because you are only as strong as your weakest link.

[Brule]

Sorry, I have zero experience in baji and thus have zero room to critique practitioners of it.

I don't think it's necessary to have experience in a certain form of MA to offer a sincere critique of how one person moves compared to the other. In this case, person A seems to be focusing on issuing and projecting power whereas person B has a more relaxed, fluid motion but still exhibiting power.

[SPJ]

the theory of ba ji rooting is actually very deep or hard.

we may stomp feet in every posture.

--

:eek:

[SPJ]

in the old time, people may know how good your rooting by listening the sound of your stomping.

snappy or crispy is light and superficial.

muffled is deep and heavy.

--

my point is that ba ji has many stomping feet practice.

actually, many styles have stomping feet including tai ji.


---

[shaolin_allan]

actually, many styles have stomping feet including tai ji.


---

I totally agree SPJ you see stomping power in some of the best styles. For some of the others who posted in this channel i'm amazed you guys haven't been perm banned yet from this forum. I do have one question though to the thread starter, you turned down a fight with a woman? Cause I think bawang brought it up and I didn't see you even reply to it, that looked pretty bad to me. I think its one thing to ignore a pointless rude comment which you seem to do pretty well but you're also not addressing some of the points they are making. I watched your videos though and i'm just glad to see more videos of Baji to be honest.

[omarthefish]

All fine and well but always be warry of the "weakest link" because you are only as strong as your weakest link.
I did say on the previous page:

...I'd argue that proper form transmits power efficiently but that form is not the source of powerI'd argue that proper form transmits power efficiently but that form is not the source of power
By way of analogy, the dan tian thing I am talking about is the engine. The form is rest of the power train. Shifu even likes to compare dan-tian work to the compression chamber in the pistons. I have an older interview where he's saying that without the compression, you get no explosion.

There's a lot of parts of a car that all contribute to it's speed, acceleration, handling etc. but what kind of engine drives the thing does matter. All I am saying is that my teachers approach is to start building a fighter from the engine and build the rest of drive train out from there. You could build a car by building everything else first and dropping the engine in at the end but I think his view is that the engine is the trickiest part, takes the longest time, so get to work on it first.

You want both but again, would you rather have a sloppy form that was fast and powerful or an accurate form with no power? What's a more serious problem with a car? A burnt out clutch or burnt out cylinders in the engine?

I'm making a relative, not absolute comparison here.

[Violent Designs]

I did say on the previous page:

By way of analogy, the dan tian thing I am talking about is the engine. The form is rest of the power train. Shifu even likes to compare dan-tian work to the compression chamber in the pistons. I have an older interview where he's saying that without the compression, you get no explosion.

There's a lot of parts of a car that all contribute to it's speed, acceleration, handling etc. but what kind of engine drives the thing does matter. All I am saying is that my teachers approach is to start building a fighter from the engine and build the rest of drive train out from there. You could build a car by building everything else first and dropping the engine in at the end but I think his view is that the engine is the trickiest part, takes the longest time, so get to work on it first.

You want both but again, would you rather have a sloppy form that was fast and powerful or an accurate form with no power? What's a more serious problem with a car? A burnt out clutch or burnt out cylinders in the engine?

I'm making a relative, not absolute comparison here.

very funny i just remember wang shifu (youknowwho) telling me once describing Baji as people who are obsessed with maximum compression and explosion, LOL.

[Northwind]

I don't think it's necessary to have experience in a certain form of MA to offer a sincere critique of how one person moves compared to the other. In this case, person A seems to be focusing on issuing and projecting power whereas person B has a more relaxed, fluid motion but still exhibiting power.

Yet I still feel the same about it. I critique the hell outta some youtube, movies, etc.. However it's from "my point of view"; a view that is not educated nor experienced of the style in question.

For me to say that they should have done x instead of y is silly, because I have no idea about the alphabet being used whatsoever.

[YouKnowWho]

You want both but again, would you rather have a sloppy form that was fast and powerful or an accurate form with no power?
I have taken about 8 single moves out of the Baji forms and make it into drills. This way, I can train those "Baji power generation drills" along with my "Mantis speed generation drills" and "Longfist kick punch combo drills". This way, I don't have to think about style vs. style.

[bawang]

this isnt some newbie that just got to china. that would be understandable.
this guy been training in china for ten years. ten fukin years.


compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol32eUQ0DhA&feature=related
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIrdYR3Z6zc


this guy act like a mamas boy on chiense tv, then does a complete 360 talking sh1t about people in xian, saying theyre afraid of him, jealous of him, how he will infiltrate them and make them think hes one of them. this is more than disrespect. this is treachery. this is unforgivable.


im taking break from this forum. thanks for reminding me to train hard so i dont end up looking like you. fukin disgrace.