What Sets Wing Chun Kicking Appart From Other Systems

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am curious about what some might say.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am curious about what some might say.

I can not speak of any other systems except Wing Chun and Japanese Jiujitsu, but in either case, the kicks are far more controlled and deliberate. With a front heel kick and a side kick that does not exceed the waist is basic. I have incorporated other types of kick, but have pretty much kept the basic concepts intact. You can kick without getting trapped in either kick, put a great deal of power behind either one, and can do it repeatedly. The high kicks I have seen are best done for TV or the movies because when you kick like that you give away your stability, lose some of the real power, and place yourself in grave danger of being trapped or taken down. With WC or Jiujitsu you only kick when you can not miss, and in most cases you are able to put full power behind the kick, and usually at a target that is susceptable to pain or injury, and in most cases can be easily recovered while maintaining your guard. These kicks are scientifically and common sense based. I am sure that there will be other forms of gung fu that have kicks that are basically the same, but have absolutely no idea which ones that would be.

[wtxs]

What Sets Wing Chun Kicking Appart From Other Systems


for the most part and with majority of lineages, kicks are no higher than the waist level ... just one of the many differences.

[WC1277]

WC kicks when trained properly can be extremely powerful. The whole body is connected behind them very much like the punch. Back when I was at the school full time we used to train the legs extensively. Some guys were fanatics! :) It's one of those things you can't just train part time to become decent at. How are they unique? You know what it feels like when someone has a really good structure and you just can't move them. A good WC kick is just as solid. Almost impossible to block.

Just for fun, here's a video of Danny Chan, hands down fong sifu's best student, doing a kicking demo of just kicks in general. Not WC kicks so please don't point out the obvious! It's funny though, so enjoy! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTQRfNWHB4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Vajramusti]

That is a fun video of Danny Chan kicking. Among Danny's achievements - he could/can throw all kinds of kicks even to the back of the head and neck from a wing chun structure rather than a
tkd ball of the foot pivot.

BTW- Ip Man when he was younger had superb kicking ability. Ip Ching's book on his father describes an incident where a pickpocket tried to lift a pen from IM's pocket when he had bent over to pick up a newspaper from a stack on the floor of a restaurant. With a straight back kick
IM sent the startled thief flying backward.

joy chaudhuri

[duende]

WC kicks when trained properly can be extremely powerful. The whole body is connected behind them very much like the punch. Back when I was at the school full time we used to train the legs extensively. Some guys were fanatics! :) It's one of those things you can't just train part time to become decent at. How are they unique? You know what it feels like when someone has a really good structure and you just can't move them. A good WC kick is just as solid. Almost impossible to block.

Just for fun, here's a video of Danny Chan, hands down fong sifu's best student, doing a kicking demo of just kicks in general. Not WC kicks so please don't point out the obvious! It's funny though, so enjoy! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTQRfNWHB4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nice kicking skills,

But turning your back to your opponent is never good WC structure or strategy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC kicks when trained properly can be extremely powerful. The whole body is connected behind them very much like the punch. Back when I was at the school full time we used to train the legs extensively. Some guys were fanatics! :) It's one of those things you can't just train part time to become decent at. How are they unique? You know what it feels like when someone has a really good structure and you just can't move them. A good WC kick is just as solid. Almost impossible to block.

Just for fun, here's a video of Danny Chan, hands down fong sifu's best student, doing a kicking demo of just kicks in general. Not WC kicks so please don't point out the obvious! It's funny though, so enjoy! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTQRfNWHB4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Good stuff and nice and smooth.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I can not speak of any other systems except Wing Chun and Japanese Jiujitsu, but in either case, the kicks are far more controlled and deliberate. With a front heel kick and a side kick that does not exceed the waist is basic. I have incorporated other types of kick, but have pretty much kept the basic concepts intact. You can kick without getting trapped in either kick, put a great deal of power behind either one, and can do it repeatedly. The high kicks I have seen are best done for TV or the movies because when you kick like that you give away your stability, lose some of the real power, and place yourself in grave danger of being trapped or taken down. With WC or Jiujitsu you only kick when you can not miss, and in most cases you are able to put full power behind the kick, and usually at a target that is susceptable to pain or injury, and in most cases can be easily recovered while maintaining your guard. These kicks are scientifically and common sense based. I am sure that there will be other forms of gung fu that have kicks that are basically the same, but have absolutely no idea which ones that would be.

I think that we share a similar interpretation. I use a lot of other kicks because it suites me but they aren't pure WC whatever that is. Usually when I teach, I show a seriies of Classical kicks which are mostly stomps, front thrusts (with the foot turning various directions appropriate to the target). Granted there are others, but I see these kicks as being classical WC specialties.

[YouKnowWho]

Why do you guys think that kicking should have any "Style boundary"? There are only a small set of kicking (~ 20) that human body can perform. It doesn't matter what style that you train, you can always learn all the kicks if you want.

It's you that's important and not your style. Why should you care whether it's pure WC or not?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why do you guys think that kicking should have any "Style boundary"? There are only a small set of kicking (~ 20) that human body can perform. It doesn't matter what style that you train, you can always learn all the kicks if you want.

It's you that's important and not your style. Why should you care whether it's pure WC or not?

Of course we learn them all. There is just a core of things that get emphasized. I am not a purist at all. It's just discussion for me. I am not one of these, "that's not authentic guys."

[anerlich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwxUSBgrB3I

A few kicking sequences and applications in amongst this.

[k gledhill]

What Sets Ving Tsun Kicking Apart From Other Systems ?

The kicks don't disrupt our facing ideas, distance,axis balance, etc...iow we can keep a straight line and kick even if we cant reach with a punch.
We can also counter with mid section or knee kicks as we angle off the line of force aka bull fighting kicks , timing & distance is everything.
I have used the VT kicks in a few fights, the force direction lifts guys off their feet and sends them flying, sometimes impacting on walls behind them for a 'double whammy' effect.
Same if you hit a guy solid with a vt punch, if his heads near a wall, it bounces off with the equal impact force. Like hitting them twice with one kick or punch from the front then the wall from behind. Solid immovable objects can be your friends too.

Little sweeps , groin stomps if guys go down with legs up in the air, stop kicks, combined front & side kicks, sweeps and stomps...all low line and alternatives to loss of hand distances

What shoes you wear can alter your delivery unless you train in heavy boots/brogues to get used to the weight. The weight can make your toes plantar flex [point away from the shin] so you kick with toes of shoes not heels. But you learn to chamber the toes to dorsi flex up [ point towards the shin ] with boots/shoes, so you 'stamp' them forwards. I learned this kicking guys in bar fights, a toe kick still bends them over in pain, but theres no force transmission like a heel....

I also use 'whatever' it takes, low punt kicks to heads if they try to get up to keep fighting, low thai kicks to allow for angles and motion that only allow that kick in that moment of available target...

[WC1277]

Here's another fun one of Danny Chan. Half way through fong sifu comes to the rescue! :) Check it out! This was back in 1979

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PoiOVepwGo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[k gledhill]

Here's another fun one of Danny Chan. Half way through fong sifu comes to the rescue! :) Check it out! This was back in 1979

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PoiOVepwGo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

reminds me of bar fights I have really been in, chaos :D wish A Fong sifu had shown up too !

[Lee Chiang Po]

Why do you guys think that kicking should have any "Style boundary"? There are only a small set of kicking (~ 20) that human body can perform. It doesn't matter what style that you train, you can always learn all the kicks if you want.

It's you that's important and not your style. Why should you care whether it's pure WC or not?


There are lots of kicks for sure, but not all of them are safe to use or within the ability of all to do. Personally, I can not do most of the kicks we see in karate and gung fu. I simply do not have the hip structure for it. I can do the WC kicks quite easily though, so I am thinking that this might be the reason WC evolved to use these kicks rather than the other ones. Any time you kick above your waist you run a risk of being trapped. You will definately surrender some stability and balance. These factors alone are enough for me. I can do more damage with a kick I can do well, as compared to a kick that I cannot do well. Low kicks are tough to deal with. They usually connect and usually cause pain or injury, and they are real hard to dodge or block. They can be used to draw your opponents defense down so that you can apply your hand weapons more efficiently and with less danger to yourself.
I guess a person could learn all sorts of kicks, and if they are easy and do not offer danger to yourself, they might also be very beneficial. I have learned a few different kicks that I can do, but they sort of maintain the basics I subscribe to with my regular WC kicks. The kicks are not really different as such, just applied a bit differently.
It is likely best for one to learn the kicks that he can easily and safely do, and practice these until they can be done extremely well. You will never have to use every kick or punch you have, as it is quite likely the first one or two will do the job if you have them trained real well.

[YouKnowWho]

to draw your opponents defense down so that you can apply your hand weapons more efficiently and with less danger to yourself.

It may be interest to find out why the WC "chain punches" principle has not applied to the leg yet. In the Longfist system, there is a "chain kicks" that you keep stepping (not kicking) 45 degree downward on your opponent's knee just like the WC chain punches that constantly hitting on your opponent's face. If you can kick your opponent's knee without looking down, when your opponent looks down at your low kick, it will give you an excellent chance to punch on his face.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It may be interest to find out why the WC "chain punches" principle has not applied to the leg yet. In the Longfist system, there is a "chain kicks" that you keep stepping (not kicking) 45 degree downward on your opponent's knee just like the WC chain punches that constantly hitting on your opponent's face. If you can kick your opponent's knee without looking down, when your opponent looks down at your low kick, it will give you an excellent chance to punch on his face.

This is basically what I was talking about in my last post. I have used a front heel kick to the hip, pelvic bridge, or knee, then come down on the foot or ankle, step in again and fire off another round of kicks, all in as rapid a motion as I can muster, then come in over that with both hands, either to punch or to grab and turn my opponent. If I can turn him a bit suddenly I can also get a foot into the back of his knee, bringing him down to his knees for a followup of kicking from behind. Fighting is brutal.
As a young man I was known to be bad about kicking. I didn't just kick, but would use well placed kicks with all the power I could gather. It has gotten me into trouble for sure, but it has also saved my butt. The thing about the front heel kick is that you can turn the foot left or right sort of like a side kick, and you can apply it in a very tight space.

[metrosonus]

I think kicks in general make you too vulnerable. For one, they telegraph easy as many of them require a chambering and two, if you miss or land a weak kick, you can be trapped, thrown or just thrown off balance.

That's a large part of the reason I quit Tang So Doo; it simply wasn't an effective self defense form. Hapkido is another story, but many times in sparring class I felt frustrated because someone would leave a poorly executed axe kick hanging off of my defending arm. I was unable to throw or otherwise punish the opponent because of the "sport" rules they observe.

Kicks are an effective attack, but the ones that require chambering, in my opinion are best utilized after an upper body volley of attacks to raise the opponents guard. this particularly works on defensive opponents.

For offensive opponents, I would rather redirect or work around the attack energy and utilize the traditional wing chun kicks and focus on the knee, the supporting leg and sweeps.

[YouKnowWho]

I think kicks in general make you too vulnerable.

If you don't

- punch your opponent, your opponent will punch you.
- kick your opponent, your opponent wil kick you.

It's better to punch/kick your opponent than the other way around. As long as your opponent is busy to handle your punches and kicks, he will have no time to attack you. That will make you safe.

Your kick can help you to close the gap safely. It's the 1st step of your entering strategy.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1115895

Your kick can help you to close the gap safely. It's the 1st step of your entering strategy.[/QUOTE]
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No/yes depends.......
joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is easy to attack someone by surprise, and if you are committed to brutality you will be able to take him down directly. However, if someone becomes aware of your intentions and takes a defensive stance you might be in for a hard fight. Making that bridge can be hard, and if you are not quick you can end up knocked out or worse. The low kicks don't require a great deal of advance notice to fire off at an opponent. You can fake an upper assault and then come under with a devistating kick, When the defense drops down you come back in over that and try to punch or even trap an arm. If I can get hold of someone I can usually jerk and push them very hard and fast enough to spin them around or at least take them off balance. If you can violate their center they can not effectively defend against your punches or kicks. The thing here is that in any event you have to be like a mad dog and overwhelm him.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I saw a post about hips. I have found that there are safe ways to do about any kick. I spent some time in TKD so I learned some very safe and standard practices for high kicks. However, with the advent of youtube, I am seeing a lot of variations of kicks that are showing up that aren't safe for people with average hip flexibility.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I served in Viet Nam with a ROC Captain that was a 4th black belt in TKD. He could do all sorts of high kicks that I simply did not have the hip action to do. What I find amazing is that the kicks I learned as a teen, I can still do quite well at 66. I will be able to do them for whatever years I have left unless I am crippled in some way. High kicks and kicks that require special conditioning will leave you one day. They will stop working for you or will just get too hard to do.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I served in Viet Nam with a ROC Captain that was a 4th black belt in TKD. He could do all sorts of high kicks that I simply did not have the hip action to do.
I don't want to presume to know your body or situation, but I think that TKD does a pretty good job of getting you to where you can do those kicks. Even McDojo's seem to do a good job of teaching the training and technique necessary to do the kicks. Had you gone through the training perhaps you could do those kicks?



What I find amazing is that the kicks I learned as a teen, I can still do quite well at 66. I will be able to do them for whatever years I have left unless I am crippled in some way. High kicks and kicks that require special conditioning will leave you one day. They will stop working for you or will just get too hard to do.

Very true. No matter what you do... I think that it all will come back to those core WC kicks.

[zenmindsword]

To those who are interested - twelve years ago I came across a lineage of Ip Man that did emphasized kicking much more than the average Ip Man lineage. I have written an eBook based on the little that I learned and what I understood of the style from my limited perspective.

The eBook will be released on 9 Aug 2011 and is available from http://zenmindsword.webs.com/. Do take a look if you are interested. If not, kindly ignore this post.

I have also written random posts on it on my blog at http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/. Click on the category of TIMQ and Wing Chun to see posts on Wing Chun that I wrote.

Thanks for reading. Back to work.

[GlennR]

To those who are interested - twelve years ago I came across a lineage of Ip Man that did emphasized kicking much more than the average Ip Man lineage. I have written an eBook based on the little that I learned and what I understood of the style from my limited perspective.

The eBook will be released on 9 Aug 2011 and is available from http://zenmindsword.webs.com/. Do take a look if you are interested. If not, kindly ignore this post.

I have also written random posts on it on my blog at http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/. Click on the category of TIMQ and Wing Chun to see posts on Wing Chun that I wrote.

Thanks for reading. Back to work.

Looks interesting.
I look forawrd to the read

[Vajramusti]

It may be interest to find out why the WC "chain punches" principle has not applied to the leg yet. In the Longfist system, there is a "chain kicks" that you keep stepping (not kicking) 45 degree downward on your opponent's knee just like the WC chain punches that constantly hitting on your opponent's face. If you can kick your opponent's knee without looking down, when your opponent looks down at your low kick, it will give you an excellent chance to punch on his face.
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We practice lots of kicks in our WC system. Ip Man himself was a great kicker. But strategy and tactics in using wing chun kicks has their own logic.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

I am curious about what some might say.


Well the difference for me is that all our footwork, and therefore kicking , revolves around Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

The nature of this stance, and the associated stepping/turning, means that a lot of the kicks you see in other MA's just wont fit with this stance.

For example, a MT leg kick involves a step on the non-kicking leg, to open the hips, and commiting to a full turn of the body off that supporting leg

You cant do this and maintain a WC stance.

THe WC kicks tie in with the stance, generally low, straight and the heel as the strike.

[Vajramusti]

Well the difference for me is that all our footwork, and therefore kicking , revolves around Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

The nature of this stance, and the associated stepping/turning, means that a lot of the kicks you see in other MA's just wont fit with this stance.

For example, a MT leg kick involves a step on the non-kicking leg, to open the hips, and commiting to a full turn of the body off that supporting leg

You cant do this and maintain a WC stance.

THe WC kicks tie in with the stance, generally low, straight and the heel as the strike.
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Hi Glenn-my perspective and experience is apparently different-but it is wing chun.
I have worked out with some MT folks at one time or another. I don't do MT. Without going on and on...
YGKYM is the fundamental stance- it's also our fundamental DEVELOPMENTAL stance to align key elements of our structure. When that is well learned- chum kiu gives plenty of mobility, turns and weight shifting for doing what one wants to do...without using MT , TKD or other alternative alignments. Kicking low is part of good fighting tactics. In development you can kick in a variety of ways using wc principles and open up joints etc. But, I understand folks have different views

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

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Hi Glenn-my perspective and experience is apparently different-but it is wing chun.
I have worked out with some MT folks at one time or another. I don't do MT. Without going on and on...
YGKYM is the fundamental stance- it's also our fundamental DEVELOPMENTAL stance to align key elements of our structure. When that is well learned- chum kiu gives plenty of mobility, turns and weight shifting for doing what one wants to do...without using MT , TKD or other alternative alignments. Kicking low is part of good fighting tactics. In development you can kick in a variety of ways using wc principles and open up joints etc. But, I understand folks have different views

joy chaudhuri

Sure, i take your point Joy, and i wasnt suggesting that i fight from YGKYM.
But, as ive highlighted in your post, YGKYM gives you the guidlines of a certain structure you should maintain whist fighting and from my expewrience that doesnt lend itself to to the proper execution of some kicks from other systems.

Having said that, fighting is fighting and id be the 1st to kick outside the system if it would give me the win ;)

[Tom Kagan]

I am curious about what some might say.

The key difference is people ask these sort of questions about it. Other than that, nothing.

[nasmedicine]

The key difference is people ask these sort of questions about it. Other than that, nothing.

I agree, all martial arts systems at their pinnacle are virtually the same. Be as efficient as possible while defending and/or attacking. That's it. Everything is subjective.

[YouKnowWho]

Be as efficient as possible.

In the longfist system, there are all kind of kicks. The day that I saw that

- TKD's side kick training is better than the longfist side kick training, I switch my longfist side kick to the TKD side kick.
- MT's roundhouse kick training is better than the longfist roundhouse kick training, I switch my longfist roundhouse kick to the MT roundhouse kick.

I'll never allow my style to put any restriction on my personal skill development.

[PalmStriker]

I don't want to presume to know your body or situation, but I think that TKD does a pretty good job of getting you to where you can do those kicks. Even McDojo's seem to do a good job of teaching the training and technique necessary to do the kicks. Had you gone through the training perhaps you could do those kicks?



Very true. No matter what you do... I think that it all will come back to those core WC kicks.
I was talking with a degree TKD college professor some years back and he mentioned the same thing about slowing down on the high kicks even though he was still instructing his students in their use. His father had been a pro boxer. I'm 59 now and I gave up practicing leaping rolls off of cement at the age of 47, some things you have to retire for health purposes as you age.

[nasmedicine]

the kicks are far more controlled and deliberate. With a front heel kick and a side kick that does not exceed the waist is basic.

The high kicks I have seen are best done for TV or the movies because when you kick like that you give away your stability, lose some of the real power, and place yourself in grave danger of being trapped or taken down.

With WC or Jiujitsu you only kick when you can not miss, and in most cases you are able to put full power behind the kick, and usually at a target that is susceptable to pain or injury, and in most cases can be easily recovered while maintaining your guard.

These kicks are scientifically and common sense based.

I agree.......

[imperialtaichi]

The Wing Chun "Tiger Tail Kick" has six kicking methods hidden in one technique.

The "Throat Locker Kick" is a high kick that can be applied during Chi Sau, although it does take a lot of practice to pull off.

Wing Chun has some really awesome kicks.

[Sardinkahnikov]

It has been a long time since I practiced WC...I'm going to sound like a clumsy newbie by asking this, but what was the difference between a chung gerk and a jing gerk again? The application, at least for me, was just that of a front kick, for both of them...

[Sardinkahnikov]

The Wing Chun "Tiger Tail Kick" has six kicking methods hidden in one technique.

I remeber a "fu gerk" that was basically a side kick thrown in a side stance, I think. Is that what you're referring to?