Alive Hand

[Brule]

in SPM, the hand is alive, It strikes but is relaxed, so if it encounters opposition, the energy changes angles and continues striking as the body moves forward, which allows the hand to always "recharge" as it moves forward. Since the strike is relaxed, it can deliver power at the end of the power chain.
easier said than done...

Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

From my take on SPM, the hand ("bridge") is not "dead", it is reactive and "alive", it/we read the pressure and lack there of we move in or around and when the hand feels the reaction it reacts, and attacks.
Think of when you are grappling and you try for a lock or choke and the opponent blocks you, you don't "disconnect" but "effortlessly" go to the nest sub and the one after that and the one after that, always flowing with, but never following, more like leading.

[TenTigers]

I can tell you this-from personal experience, it's not easy. Two-man drills such as chi-sao is definitely helpful, if you youtube Tim Tacketts trapping, he illustrates their "swinging gate" exercise, which I find helpful. Bruce Lee did some SPM and some of it seems to have crept into his training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It helps to realize that there are NO blocks in SPM.

[Brule]

How would you compare it to hung kuen's reserve? Does it fall within the same category or is it a different animal?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How would you compare it to hung kuen's reserve? Does it fall within the same category or is it a different animal?

Reserve ??
Not sure what you mean?

[Brule]

One of the 12 bridges, could be described as flow, but i may be wrong.

[Frost]

lol when i saw this thread i was thinking evil dead hand.........brought a tear to my eye :)

[TenTigers]

lao-reserve can be defined in different ways. In one way, it means not to over extend your strikes, your reserve then allows you to be able to redirect your hand.
It can also mean to have back up-to have more on hand to follow up with.
Gong-Hard, Yau-Soft, Bik-Crowding, Jik-Straight, Fun-Dividing, Deng-sinking, Chuen-inch,
Tai-lift, Lao-Reserve, Wun-Flow, Jai- immobilize, Deng-Finalize

[TenTigers]

Brule-I've heard lao as flow as well. I think in the other forum, we debated that, and came to the conclusion that everyone has their own take on it, and in the end, it doesn't really matter, because it's just a word, and the true understanding is in the hand.

[ginosifu]

Brule-I've heard lao as flow as well. I think in the other forum, we debated that, and came to the conclusion that everyone has their own take on it, and in the end, it doesn't really matter, because it's just a word, and the true understanding is in the hand.

My teacher explains Lau / Lao: to roll to flow. I don't think either is right or wrong though.

When you think of "LIVE" maybe you can expalin it as alert but not stiff, soft but not limp. In Tai Chi we call it "Song" but really your hand is relaxed and ready to listen to the opponent s energy.

I try to explain it to my student as when you spar.... if your hand drops and just dangles at the thighs, it's considered "Dead". If you fight with 2 clenched fists and squeeze them too tight, they are considered "Dead". Live hands are relaxed and ready to receive information.

This is a complex issue to explain to beginner students.... I would wait until they have a couple of years before attempting to explain and teach "Live Energy".

ginosifu

[jdhowland]

Might also be useful to remember that "alive" or "dead" qualities are not value judgements (i.e. alive=good, dead=bad). They are different techniques.

Alive hand is preparation for continuity of the fight. My Hop Ga teacher taught dead hand as the ideal method for the most telling blows. The arm is used as a flail with natural rebound from the target once the energy is gone. There is no attempt to modify the momentum once the target is attained. Often the preceeding or following hand will be more alive.

You might think of live hand as an epee, dead hand as a war hammer.

[HungKuenH]

sorry,not trying to derail the thread toppic..about Lau Kiu some lineages use Flow others reserve..thats 2 different chinese characters. would be interesting to know how it became 2 different concepts...maybe another thread(?)

On toppic,i have no experience with spm but I visited Ng Hang Sifu in Hongkong and I pretty much liked what they do,very intense and far from dead (hands) very alive and powerful...

[Indrafist]

Might also be useful to remember that "alive" or "dead" qualities are not value judgements (i.e. alive=good, dead=bad). They are different techniques.

Alive hand is preparation for continuity of the fight. My Hop Ga teacher taught dead hand as the ideal method for the most telling blows. The arm is used as a flail with natural rebound from the target once the energy is gone. There is no attempt to modify the momentum once the target is attained. Often the preceeding or following hand will be more alive.

You might think of live hand as an epee, dead hand as a war hammer.

Excellent post. Live hands are often better in theory than in practice. They are facilitated by the exchange of compliant structures, 'facilitated' but not determined, as in they can be imposed. It's best to train both with and against, 'live' and 'dead' hands. Dead hands can be one shot winners or end-point finishers. Live hands teach a great deal about the geometry of structure, and even if over-engineered, they can still give a reserve of bandwidth to play with.

Indra.

[Brule]

When you talk about dead hands, these are one-shot winners where all energy is put into the one strike to achieve the goal. When you talk about live hands, you allow for some redirection once it is met with a force it cannot overcome. With live hand, you are always holding back, and not re-charging the limb to strike again, correct? If this is the case, why practise this method at all as not all your energy is not put into the strike.

Not trolling here guys, just trying to understand these concepts and trying to have a civil discussion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, in both lineages that I have experience in, Lao was always "restrain" to not over commit the strike or over extend the elbow and the reason was so that you could react quicker to counters.

[Indrafist]

When you talk about dead hands, these are one-shot winners where all energy is put into the one strike to achieve the goal. When you talk about live hands, you allow for some redirection once it is met with a force it cannot overcome. With live hand, you are always holding back, and not re-charging the limb to strike again, correct? If this is the case, why practise this method at all as not all your energy is not put into the strike.

Not trolling here guys, just trying to understand these concepts and trying to have a civil discussion.

There's a bandwidth of live-hands that run from a boxer's feint to structured 'sticking'. The former is probably more reliably applicable than the latter. The reduction of the concept of a 'bridge' from genralised interaction (including non contact interactions) to (say) arm bridges can lead to an overstatement on sticking or feeling. Whilst it's good to develop these skills, in practice contact is seldom so structured or smooth as to allow them free play. They can become an absorbing abstraction and then lead to all sorts of dogmatic justifications. Clinch work (which is a kind of bridge) is less formal, and is usually just structured enough to be readily effective. The question for live-hand training is if it can be deconstructed, without losing any of the benefits derived from its compliant practice. I'm fairly certain that it can,
but this takes a development away from the usual live-hand training. Dead-hand hits are bandwidthed too. Some are more dumb-bomb than others. If our approach is principle led, rather than techique or dogma-led, then most of the decisions are taken for us, in other words the technique emerges in the moment: either dead or live-handed.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing I will add and to expand a bit on Indra's mention of "clinch work":
Over the years in the judo, wrestling, MT and BJJ I have done and had the previlage to face, I have found that bridging ( of the static sense) leads to stand up clinch work which quite often leads to throws,takedowns and ground work.
Live hand can be the "solution" to this problem buT ONLY if it is exposed to the shapes and feels that it will see under those conditions.

[jdhowland]

One thing I will add and to expand a bit on Indra's mention of "clinch work":

...Live hand can be the "solution" to this problem buT ONLY if it is exposed to the shapes and feels that it will see under those conditions.

There it is.

Excellent observation.

[Brule]

When you say live hand can be solution to this problem are you suggesting live hand skill will give a better chance of escaping the clinch and working into the striking range or are you saying it gives you a better chance within the clinch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you say live hand can be solution to this problem are you suggesting live hand skill will give a better chance of escaping the clinch and working into the striking range or are you saying it gives you a better chance within the clinch?

More options in dealing with the clinch than a "dead" hand.

[TenTigers]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

Quite correct, "heavy handedness" has it place of course but we should remember that just because it starts off "heavy" doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

[Indrafist]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

Hi Ten Tigers, yes Lion's Roar and CLF share the waist and torso torque.
Breaking down long power into short power, then back up to long again, so that you can 'arc-segment' a line and refire with whole-body ging. The line being a curved path, such as a hook, or any linear pathway. This is different to short-bridge sticking, but it can incorporate it. Short power against long (breaking up the limb) and long against the body (close range whole body follow thru). Note that I'm not advocating repeated short strikes as limb destruction (ref. the recent debate about this: just that structure breakers can be limb hits, off from which a long arc can refire). Short at long range and long at short range often goes against what some see as common sense. This isn't a dogma, it's a testable hypothesis.

Indra.

[Indrafist]

Quite correct, "heavy handedness" has it place of course but we should remember that just because it starts off "heavy" doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

Or an upward palm the, after contact, turns into a downward palm.
A low hammerfist the turns into a rising elbow with the same hand , that turns into a low "cutting" palm and so forth...

[Indrafist]

Or an upward palm the, after contact, turns into a downward palm.
A low hammerfist the turns into a rising elbow with the same hand , that turns into a low "cutting" palm and so forth...

Absolutely :)

[TenTigers]

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

exactly the example I had in mind!

[Jimbo]

Another example might be when stepping in using a Kwa Choi (long downward backfist), then turning the same hand and hooking the opponent's arm as he raises it to defend. Your other arm can follow into a forearm or other strike to his upper arm, as your first hand continues sliding towards his wrist/pulls. Then your first hand quickly releases the hook and shoots forward to straight punch into the body, or even a hook or horizontal Sow Choi up higher. With the latter, by adding a step behind him, it can also become a takedown.

That's a long-winded description, as the actual movements happen very quickly.

[Brule]

It may have been mentioned already, but i'm not sure. Without advancing footwork, the live hand cannot continue. There needs to be some type of re-direction in your footwork to properly deliver the next strike or to switch from one to the other as some have given examples of previously.

Keeping this in mind, what type of drills do you use to improve this skill. I can see the use of the dummy as an aide to this, is it possible to refine this skill alone?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It may have been mentioned already, but i'm not sure. Without advancing footwork, the live hand cannot continue. There needs to be some type of re-direction in your footwork to properly deliver the next strike or to switch from one to the other as some have given examples of previously.

Keeping this in mind, what type of drills do you use to improve this skill. I can see the use of the dummy as an aide to this, is it possible to refine this skill alone?

Footwork is crucial, is there anything more crucial in the MA ??
Everything we do and HOW we do it comes from footwork:
Without a stable base we have no power, without a flexible and dynamic base, we have no mobility, without correct angles we can't hit the target but the target can certianly hit us !

[TenTigers]

the dummy is good for practicing movement, but it is no substitute for a live dummy-your partner. You need to feel your opponent's energy.
This is why we say that real Gung-Fu can only be passed on through direct transmission, hands-on, from your Sifu. If you don't touch hands with your Sifu on a regular basis, you get nothing. Only shape.

[Brule]

I know where you're coming from Ten, unfortunatley now i am not in any school. I was always the one to volunteer when Sifu wanted to demo a concept or technique, others would ask afterwards, why do you always get up there and i said, cause i need to feel it to learn it. Doesn't matter if he knocked the wind outta me, i was right back and asked to feel it again.

Speaking about Alive hand and what has been presented so far, from what i can gather, it is a concept used to help the student understand that there are more options available when your initial contact is extinguished. For the student to continue with his goal and not end it right there eventhough his initial gwa choy, for example, is stopped. Can we also describe this as a whole body concept? Alive body, because as was mentioned before, techniques are thrown by whole body movement no matter how subtle it may be, not just in the hand or arm.

[jdhowland]

...Can we also describe this as a whole body concept? Alive body, because as was mentioned before, techniques are thrown by whole body movement no matter how subtle it may be, not just in the hand or arm.

Exactly. This is why a dead hand technique can spring back to use so suddenly. The back/waist and "horse" are always alive.

[YouKnowWho]

Think of when you are grappling and you try for a lock or choke and the opponent blocks you, you don't "disconnect" but "effortlessly" go to the nest sub and the one after that and the one after that, always flowing with, but never following, more like leading.
Sometime you don't want to let your opponent to force you to "flow" with him. It takes you some effort to occupy your opponent's territory, you just don't want to give up that territory without letting your opponent to fight hard to take back that territory.

I just met a 260 lb Taiji instructor 1 hour ago in the park. We did some push hands but it soon turned into wrestling. In the beginning, I responsed to my opponent's moves and "flow" with him. Then I decided to test his skill level, the moment that I got my back neck clinching, I just won't let it go. This way, I forced my opponent to play with my game instead of for me to play with his game. When my opponent tried to break my clinching, he forgot to attack me and I had put him in defense mode. That gave me a lot of advantage.

[stonecrusher69]

Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

relax your mucles and dont commit your energy until the last moment.

[Hardwork108]

in SPM, the hand is alive, It strikes but is relaxed, so if it encounters opposition, the energy changes angles and continues striking as the body moves forward, which allows the hand to always "recharge" as it moves forward. Since the strike is relaxed, it can deliver power at the end of the power chain.
easier said than done...



Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

I came to this discussion late and have not read all the posts, so I apologize if anyone else has mentioned this already, but it is my understanding of the Internals that if you practice them then your hands have to be "alive", as that is one of the points of practicing the Internals.

I personally have not heard of an Internal style that uses "dead hands", as in the way TCMA views some Karate techniques (from certain styles).

My Wing Chun training also emphasized "alive hands", where your hands are "listening" and reacting instantly to changes and where the techniques are never meant to be so committed that you will not be able to change and LEAK through.

Of course, the way most people train their WC nowadays, they would probably screw up even the "dead hand" techniques., let alone the more advanced "alive" ones.

I am glad that we are having this kind of discussion because in the past when I had brought up subjects such as "aliveness" or "liveness"; "softness" and "sensitivity" together with "listening" and "sticking" concepts/abilities, and their relations to the INTERNALS, most people here in the forums thought that I was talking about "fantasy" stuff such as "magic powers".

I am glad to see that the forum has evolved further away from MMA knuckleheadness and more towards serious TCMA discussion. :)

[Subitai]

Most of the good stuff being said in this thread is common knowledge for the schools that know HOW to apply. Good kung fu is this way.

Some people may describe these principles differently but when you get them in the same room together and touch hands alittle you'll quickly see either they understand or not.

In my school, we describe part of these concepts as "the hand doesn't come back empty" also "wherever you move I follow you". Most importantly for my particular speciality; " The way into danger is the way out and vice versa" Most of the bridging concepts and ideas being discussed here are for me included in these sayings.

Different terminology but in practice, it's all that matters to me. In the past, I have written about the "Gun and the Bullet" concept.

Over the years i've adapted TONS of ways taken from Traditional Hung Style to deal with more modern fighting concepts. Realistic set up and entry is vital...Nobody will just walk up and reverse punch you...haha.

In my training know, I focus on the Gun intensely. It is most important and my obsession.
http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1347&start=0
(7th post down)

"O"

[Brule]

The gun and bullet is a good analogy. My intention of putting these threads up was to hopefully have people discuss things in a civil manner yet still pertaining to kung fu. Like you say, most good schools teach these methods in one way or another, not all may be using the same terminology but are learning it the same way. Words cannot substitute a two minute personal lesson.