What is Structure to you?

[WC1277]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?

[YouKnowWho]

Structure is something that you just do it and don't talk about it. Ask your opponent to run toward you with full force. If you can stop his forward momentum with your kick. you have good structure. If his forward momentum pushes you back, you don't have good structure. Try 10 times and record your successful/failure rate. That's the true evaluation of your structure.

Excellent - 10/0
good - 8/2
average - 5/5
poor - ...

Another way to test your structure is to tie a bicycle tube on a tree. If you can hold on that tube, spin your body, and not to let the tube to pull your body back, you have good structure, otherwise, you don't.

[GlennR]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?


From a purely WC perspective?

[WC1277]

From a purely WC perspective?

In regards to the question, yes, but if you want to share about it just in general that's fine too

[Graham H]

Structure is something that you just do it and don't talk about it. .

I would comment but I don't want to talk about! lmfao

GH

[LoneTiger108]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?

Yeah, I have to apologise for the craziness of my instincts in your thread. I've said so before that I would enjoy a visit from anybody who wants to train and exchange with me and I didn't intentionally set out to arrange a fight with anyone. G has his way with words, so we will see if there is any follow up away from the threads! :eek:

With regards to 'structure' I have previously posted a thread on the 5 elements and how this idea is used in the teaching that I received. We considered each area of the body an 'arrival' and divided the body into 5 main areas.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1069831&postcount=63

"They are a simple measuring tool for you to assess each technique and how best to apply them"

Unified 5 arrivals is moving with a complete and balanced 'body structure', but I do prefer to use the word 'alignment' over 'structure' for obvious reasons ;)

[anerlich]

Basically, good postural and other alignment to allow leverage to overcome, dissipate or mitigate the opponent's force. Something wrestlers do all the time.

Not saying it's not a valid question, but there have been HUGE flame wars about this on the forum. Look back about a year for posts by tneihoff (sp?) and you will see what I mean.

Alan Orr's DVD's explain an idea of structure which I agree with very well.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Usually when people talk about structure, they are talking about the fighting shell or on guard position (bijong). Structure can also include the specifics of the WC movements.

So what is a good structure? Some people think that a good structure is being able to resist tremendous force applied to your movements (e.g. tan) or your stance. I believe structure to be much more dynamic than that. A good structure should allow you to have dynamic strength to absorb, move, evade, and crash. Fighting is an athletic endeavor that requires a structure that allows for athleticism. If you want to be able to resist 5 men pushing on you or some other silly test of structure, you should be using a specialized stance or application of a block and not general form.

[imperialtaichi]

How do you set yourself up for a 50m dash. How do you push a car. How do you cover someone while playing basketball.

[GlennR]

Basically, good postural and other alignment to allow leverage to overcome, dissipate or mitigate the opponent's force. Something wrestlers do all the time.

Not saying it's not a valid question, but there have been HUGE flame wars about this on the forum. Look back about a year for posts by tneihoff (sp?) and you will see what I mean.

Alan Orr's DVD's explain an idea of structure which I agree with very well.

I guess the only thing id add to this, is that in WC this structure is designed to work best a close range

[stonecrusher69]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?http://futsaowingchun.info/articles.html#section3

[Graham H]

In my lineage structure is about putting the body in specific postions so that we can be mobile and deliver force without falling over. Just like when a 100m sprinter pushes out the block his limbs have to be set correctly otherwise when the muscle pushes a weak structure will collapse. Structure also applies to the punch. With the fist vertical, the elbow inside and in front of the body, supported by the hip, knee and correct foot position. In scientific terms we are using newtons 3rd law of motion.

These ideas are introduced right from the start. YJKYM starts this process of turning the feet in, rotating the knee inside and pushing the hips forward. In Chum Kiu we learn to add the step and rotation of the waist. The elbow and the way of punching are the focus of SLT with regards to the upper body. In Chum Kiu it all comes together. Chi Sau/Gor Sau shows us weaknesses in our structure so we can always focus on improving what the forms teach us.

I personally think that those who consider good structure to be about having your limbs pushed on and not buckling under the pressure (sticky chi sau) is incorrect.

In order to make swift changes in direction, to drive ourselves forward, not collapse if we retreat and make strong short range strikes no allowing the force to dissapate in the other direction is what Ving Tsun structure is all about.

GH

[Lee Chiang Po]

In my lineage structure is about putting the body in specific postions so that we can be mobile and deliver force without falling over. Just like when a 100m sprinter pushes out the block his limbs have to be set correctly otherwise when the muscle pushes a weak structure will collapse. Structure also applies to the punch. With the fist vertical, the elbow inside and in front of the body, supported by the hip, knee and correct foot position. In scientific terms we are using newtons 3rd law of motion.

These ideas are introduced right from the start. YJKYM starts this process of turning the feet in, rotating the knee inside and pushing the hips forward. In Chum Kiu we learn to add the step and rotation of the waist. The elbow and the way of punching are the focus of SLT with regards to the upper body. In Chum Kiu it all comes together. Chi Sau/Gor Sau shows us weaknesses in our structure so we can always focus on improving what the forms teach us.

I personally think that those who consider good structure to be about having your limbs pushed on and not buckling under the pressure (sticky chi sau) is incorrect.

In order to make swift changes in direction, to drive ourselves forward, not collapse if we retreat and make strong short range strikes no allowing the force to dissapate in the other direction is what Ving Tsun structure is all about.

GH

That is basically what structure is in any lineage of WC, VT, or whatever. When I was quite young we had a series of posts sticking up from the ground in the back yard, and we practiced our footwork amongst these uprights, and would try to move and land in good enough structure that we could push against these posts with our greatest power. Like pushing a station wagon. Sort of. The attempt was to stay in this structure even during our moving about. It is like putting a stick or chair under the door knob sort of. Trying to keep all the force moving forward.

[Graham H]

That is basically what structure is in any lineage of WC, VT, or whatever. .

Not in some lineages I have experienced mate!

GH

[wingchunIan]

its interesting to read all of the different views on this subject. For what its worth, to me structure is the ability to use the shapes of the system (hand and legs including footwork) to deliver and dissipate force using the skeleton rather than the muscle groups and muscular tension. Lining up the bones allows the practitioner to relax muscles and therefore move more quickly whilst at the same time having the ability to dissipate far greater forces than if they were using their muscles.

[couch]

How do you set yourself up for a 50m dash. How do you push a car. How do you cover someone while playing basketball.

I love this explanation. Practical and points to other functional types of training mirroring their outcomes.

[Graham H]

its interesting to read all of the different views on this subject. For what its worth, to me structure is the ability to use the shapes of the system (hand and legs including footwork) to deliver and dissipate force using the skeleton rather than the muscle groups and muscular tension. Lining up the bones allows the practitioner to relax muscles and therefore move more quickly whilst at the same time having the ability to dissipate far greater forces than if they were using their muscles.

I have read some stuff on your web page. WSLVT has a different approach than Ip Chun/Rawcliffe. Nice website though. ;)

GH

[Lee Chiang Po]

Not in some lineages I have experienced mate!

GH

If it isn't, then it should be. I am only familiar with my own WC and this is pretty much how it was all explained to me. I was not aware of so many different so called lineages until I got to reading about it here. I always felt that WC was WC, but it clearly isn't.

[Graham H]

If it isn't, then it should be. I am only familiar with my own WC and this is pretty much how it was all explained to me. I was not aware of so many different so called lineages until I got to reading about it here. I always felt that WC was WC, but it clearly isn't.

Yup! That's just the way it is! "Wing Chun" is a generic term nowadays IMO. Most systems contain SLT, CK, MYJ, BJ, BJD & LDBK but the thinking can vary massively. Some forms can even look entirely different. That's what happens when you have a system that, commonly in the past, was kept in small circles and then suddenly in the early 70's exploded around the world. Many people invented there own style and sold it to people that knew no better. People who may have practiced only for a short time in HK then left and started schools around the world.

Some people are easily fooled when you dress things up, make no contact with their students and charge massive amounts of money for things! This gives the impression it must be good stuff!! :rolleyes: :eek:

GH

[nasmedicine]

http://futsaowingchun.info/articles.html#section3

I concur with the general premise of the article mentioned by stonecrusher, it's a very good and short article that gets right to the heart of the subject matter without getting to deep or to confusing. Hendrik has also expressed some points in the past on this forum in regards to structure that I also agreed with at the time (however his explanations are sometime a bit circuitous). Furthermore, I also agree with Hawkins concept of what structure as well, however there are certain things conceptually I don't agree with. These are simply my opinions.

[Sean66]

I, too, ejoyed the article, but must admit that I didn't find a clear definition of "structure". It offers some insight into the various uses and/or effects of structure, but that's it.

We need a common definition before we can really talk about it and discuss it's different expressions. Otherwise it will continue to remain "ambiguous", to use the author's own term.

[trubblman]

One point I think the article raises but has not been addressed, to my understanding, is where did the idea of wing chun structure originate? Did Yip Man, or one of his original progeny( Leung Sheung, Wong Shun Lung, CST etc), explicitly set out what structure meant? Or was it the endless ( possibly wrong? )commentary by later sifu?

[nasmedicine]

I, too, ejoyed the article, but must admit that I didn't find a clear definition of "structure". It offers some insight into the various uses and/or effects of structure, but that's it.

We need a common definition before we can really talk about it and discuss it's different expressions. Otherwise it will continue to remain "ambiguous", to use the author's own term.

IMHO, I feel the problem is that there is no "one" definition of structure. Structure simply put is based purely on physics. If you open up a physics book and understand the concepts of statics, vector forces and trig...etc... and then learn how to apply it to YOUR anatomy/WC you will essentially be using structure.

[nasmedicine]

One point I think the article raises but has not been addressed, to my understanding, is where did the idea of wing chun structure originate? Did Yip Man, or one of his original progeny( Leung Sheung, Wong Shun Lung, CST etc), explicitly set out what structure meant? Or was it the endless ( possibly wrong? )commentary by later sifu?

Does it really matter? What came first the chicken or the egg (i know there was British study that was done that showed there is a protein needed to make the egg that can only undergo synthesis from within the chicken, but that's besides the point) The point is does your WC work? Can you fight with it? Does your structure hold up to your opponents force? If you can say Yes to all those then the answer to your question is that the idea of structure comes from YOUR wing chun.

[trubblman]

Well it does matter, otherwise why would I really ask? It's more than an academic question if one steps back and tries to understand why something works in a fight. It is a clear that many fighting styles, systems concept "work" without an idea of 'structure' such as VT understands. In addition I have seen and read about WSL using techniques that may break the idea of structure as I have heard it explained. Which raises a question - if one can be successful in a fight without using structure or by breaking structure perhaps the idea of structure is not necessary? My posting was more food for thought posting.

[nasmedicine]

Which raises a question - if one can be successful in a fight without using structure or by breaking structure perhaps the idea of structure is not necessary?

It is not. Thats why I said it doesn't matter. It is only one "tool" you have an your disposal. It is not the end all be all (though many would disagree)

[trubblman]

It is not. It is only one "tool" you have an your disposal. It is not the end all be all (though many would disagree)

All I can say is OK.

[nasmedicine]

All I can say is OK.

Sorry, but you can't really get the answer on a forum. You have to go find a good school. If you are already at one then ask your sifu for some help. (if he would be so kind). good luck! :)

[trubblman]

I have a "school" Thanks. My original posting was trying to get an opinion on the provenance of the idea of 'structure' - whether it is a concept that was taught by Yip Man to his original students or whether it was grafted on to Wing Chun by later sifu ( which seems to me many ideas concerning VT are). There are parallels to VT structure with tai chi. I was always curious about the parallels. So I was not curious at all about whether it works in a fight or not. Believe it or not sometimes people are interested in learning about something because of naked curiosity - knowledge for knowledge's sake.

[WC1277]

There are many different ways to look at structure. You could say that since most movements in WC are of a triangle "shape" then it's a triangle structure. Like with everything, and joy has said this many times on this forum, the devil is in the details. In my experience, the application of those "shapes" has to do with when to turn on/off power which in turn makes the "structure". I'll throw this out here simply because there's no way I'm capable of explaining it without being in person, but maybe someone here have heard it before.

You can't have active body and active hands. You can have active hands, passive body or vice versa. You can't have two active hands or two passive hands. You can only have one of each at any given time. If you use structure to deflect on the inside, the deflecting hand will always be active. If you use structure to deflect on the outside, the deflecting hand will always be passive.

If you violate any of those principles, you're not using structure in your triangle "shapes"....

[lance]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?

The samething happened to me too , where my reply to a certain thread turned into a debate or argument too , some people are open minded and some people are close minded .

Anyway , I agree with YOuKNowWho on structure , also regardless of what martial arts you personally study yourself . You have an excercise to develop power , and do the exercise so that you can develop that power within you .

[nasmedicine]

I have a "school" Thanks. My original posting was trying to get an opinion on the provenance of the idea of 'structure' - whether it is a concept that was taught by Yip Man to his original students or whether it was grafted on to Wing Chun by later sifu ( which seems to me many ideas concerning VT are). There are parallels to VT structure with tai chi. I was always curious about the parallels. So I was not curious at all about whether it works in a fight or not. Believe it or not sometimes people are interested in learning about something because of naked curiosity - knowledge for knowledge's sake.

sorry for straying away from the original post.

[Hendrik]

For me,


Structure is just the body rack similar to a body rack of a car.

So, analogy to Car, there are the truck rack, the four wheel drive rack, the two wheel drive rack, the racer car rack.....etc


rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly. IE a four wheel drive engine comes with a four wheel drive rack.





The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.

also, it is not practical to keep adjust oneself to have those forward facing pressure thinking one always has an (triangle) edge towards others. take a look at the mmA real fight and see what is going on in the continuous dynamics. or even the BJJ take down, see what happen when those who has the forward facing pressure edge crash with the Bjj, the result is they got taken down.


Thus, the elbow to the center line, the forward pressure types of stuffs are great in theoritical world. in real life, it doesnt well work when facing multi-dimensional momentum impact.






WCK's body rack cultivation is hidden in the SLT beyond the triangle and the forward pressure.

The devil is in the big rack ---- just ask the question, can this body rack sustain in comming momentum unconditionally from different side? if not that is not the proper rack.

[nasmedicine]

rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly..

I agree. (if by rack you mean frame)

[nasmedicine]

The samething happened to me too , where my reply to a certain thread turned into a debate or argument too , some people are open minded and some people are close minded .

Anyway , I agree with YOuKNowWho on structure , also regardless of what martial arts you personally study yourself . You have an excercise to develop power , and do the exercise so that you can develop that power within you .

I really hate when that happens.

[Vajramusti]

The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.
(hendrik)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily true. A triangle can be strengthened on all 3 sides. Example--the bows of Arctic icebreakers... and the geodesic dome is composed of triangles.

Agree that many wing chunners don't do that. But overgeneralizations can be inaccurate.

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

For me,


Structure is just the body rack similar to a body rack of a car.

So, analogy to Car, there are the truck rack, the four wheel drive rack, the two wheel drive rack, the racer car rack.....etc


rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly. IE a four wheel drive engine comes with a four wheel drive rack.





The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.

also, it is not practical to keep adjust oneself to have those forward facing pressure thinking one always has an (triangle) edge towards others. take a look at the mmA real fight and see what is going on in the continuous dynamics. or even the BJJ take down, see what happen when those who has the forward facing pressure edge crash with the Bjj, the result is they got taken down.


Thus, the elbow to the center line, the forward pressure types of stuffs are great in theoritical world. in real life, it doesnt well work when facing multi-dimensional momentum impact.






WCK's body rack cultivation is hidden in the SLT beyond the triangle and the forward pressure.

The devil is in the big rack ---- just ask the question, can this body rack sustain in comming momentum unconditionally from different side? if not that is not the proper rack.

Hendrik, I think we think similarly but I think you're confusing an "active" as force against force when it's really what is a "cutting edge", at least the way we apply it. It's not theoretical either, it's literally the dynamics of any fighter who uses some kind of body structure. The majority just aren't aware of their body working that way.... we only have two arms and two legs....

[YouKnowWho]

I would comment but I don't want to talk about! lmfao

GH
"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can

- knock your arm back and alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have poor structure.
- knock your body back but does not alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have average structure.
- not move your arm and your body. The distance between your arm and your body remain unchanged, you have excellent structure (along with good rooting too).

How to improve your structure? Just ask your opponent to throw hook punch at you 100 times daily. You use your whole body to block it (not just your arm). The moment that you think about your whole body and not only your arm, your structure is improved. It's easy to develop and it's easy to measure. That's why I have said, "Just do it and don't talk about it".

[nasmedicine]

"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.


I agree. .

[Hendrik]

"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can

- knock your arm back and alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have poor structure.
- knock your body back but does not alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have average structure.
- not move your arm and your body. The distance between your arm and your body remain unchanged, you have excellent structure (along with good rooting too).

How to improve your structure? Just ask your opponent to throw hook punch at you 100 times daily. You use your whole body to block it (not just your arm). The moment that you think about your whole body and not only your arm, your structure is improved. It's easy to develop and it's easy to measure. That's why I have said, "Just do it and don't talk about it".



John,

Nope, it is not that way. the above have no kung fu at all.

For example,

if you dont have a four wheel drive body rack. disregard of how many time you bang the car in a mountain ride, it will not be able to take it.

if you have a four wheel drive body rack. the dis regard how many bang, it will comes out perfectly well.


Structure or Rack or 桩步 , 练拳架子 is a big part of Chinese Internal martial art. it is a well design product. and it is all scientific. nothing mysterious and it is brainless to learn.


如果遇到高手，让他连发三次手，你就学会了，以你们的桩步和身上的功夫，不发冷手决打不坏你们，要大胆实践 才能学出真本领，可是不要打人，要让人服，不要让人怕。

这就是我在国术革命中主张的技击实验，所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里，不通过技击实验不能长真功夫，自己亲兄弟在 一起总要真拼，不要只在对打拳上下功夫，遇到外人他要拳打脚踢随便进，那你就无法应付了。练拳架子、站桩养 内气，大气充满全身就不怕打了，通过松静站立就能获得轻灵，轻灵就能听劲，能听劲就则可以敌不动我不动，敌 微动我先动，可以四两拨千斤，可以发出至大至刚不可思议的爆炸力，意到气到，气到力就到，舍己从人，应付自 如，对方就服了，用不着吃偏发劲打人，你们姜师伯把我打不出去，因为他年老力衰，这样应付就是功夫，这比伸 手将人打倒高出若干倍。我在193年拜杜心武老师，不是被他打倒才拜师，是他吸着我脱不出去我才心悦诚服的 拜了老师，你们不要只练刚劲，要多练柔劲，不要学我的发手打人，要学姜师伯的柔化，这才能提高。通过老师的 教导，我们更进一步认识了老师的武德玄上。

东北沦陷后，马老师不甘日寇凌辱，隧提倡强种救国之国术革命，在北京西城旧礼王府祠堂，组织华北国术研究会 ，延聘孙禄堂、尚云祥、刘采臣、王占恒、邓云峰，恒寿山等著名拳师为导师，吸收名大学爱国青年，共同学习， 研究强种救国之武术，因此获得中央国术馆长张之江之之支持，书赠“强种救国”四个大字。

何梅协定，蒋介石向日本人妥协，华北变色，马老师在北京不能容身，于是逃往济南，化名志然，住山东省国术馆 田镇峰（共产党员）家，助编《求是月刊》，并在山东省立高中教课，青年会教剑术，与田镇峰一起揭起国术革命 大旗，曾发表“告北平同伴书”， 当时响应者有杜心武、姜容樵、王子章、贾蕴高、孙伯英、宋铁林、郝家俊、李剑秋、李剑华、徐震、唐豪、于世 德等数百人



The above is the teaching of my sigung on IMA and what happen in early 1900. how they train, who train ( most of the big name in IMA are above) , and why is it Push hand. and how is the Qi part get into the picture.

So,This is the part of reality most never know about Chinese IMA. So it is naive to make conclusion on IMA without knowing what it is.

You know the best on the Sui Cio part from GM Chang Dong-Shen ; but you certainly dont know the part on Internal art: what is it and how is it which is in a different area.




I hope some one could help to translate this above. so one can see more clearly what is IMA instead of guessing and speculate.

[YouKnowWho]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent. All the Qi stuff is not going to help you to develop that kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

[WC1277]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

This is a discussion on if there is a way to define structure and apply it. Not the end result. Often times I wonder if you just post to have an overly simplistic opposing viewpoint. A, this is stupid, why are we talking about this, sort of attitude. If you don't want to discuss than just ignore this thread please. You don't just have a good structure, you develop it. Very few people just pick it up naturally.

However, I do I agree that this thread needs to stay far away from that internal/external crap. Just body mechanics please!

[YouKnowWho]

define structure.
The "structure" is "body unification" that you function your body as one single unit.


how it is applied and trained?

I have suggested 3 different ways to "train" structure.

1. Press your foot on the wall by using structure.
2. Use your whole body to pull a rubberband that tied on a tree.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block incoming hook punch.

I have also suggested 3 different ways to "apply" structure.

1. Drop your opponent with strong body structure kick.
2. Pull your opponent off balance by using your structure.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block incoming hook punch (same as training).

Are those what you are looking for? Or you just want to discuss on "theory" level? :confused:

[anerlich]

most of the big name in IMA are above

Were the other big names in IMA having a day off or something?


I have suggested 3 different ways to "develop" structure and "apply" it.

1. Drop your opponent with strong body structure kick.
2. Pull your opponent off balance by using your structure.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block a incoming hook punch.

What more do you want?

Robert Chu's "structure tests"are along similar lines.

Personally, I think YKH's "overly simplistic" viewpoint is at least as valid as some of the overly complex and arcane offerings of some other posters.


Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent.

Well, you could swing a heavy bag away from you and kick it as in swings back in. Or kick at a training partner holding a focus bag as they come in.

[YouKnowWho]

Well, you could swing a heavy bag away from you and kick it as in swings back in. Or kick at a training partner holding a focus bag as they come in.
Agree! Partner training and equipment training are the best way to develop your structure. It's very difficult to develop structure by "solo form" training.

I just hate to see people who spend 20 years in their "solo form" training and still fail on some simple structure testing. The earlier that we test on our structure against some "resistence", the more that we know that where we are, and whether we are on the right track or not.

[k gledhill]

Structure development, Chi-sao, to me is a method to refine the 'bow' to my arms the 'eternal arrows' . If the bow isnt drawn in full 'load' to release the arrow then I dont have maximum available force, so Iwork on the bow )- , or vt structure in chi-sao. To develop a power source to release shots from, in a unified package, ie parry, punch, body all coming at once.
Iow I need powerful punches in close quarters to come from an energy source that isnt the 'arrows' or arms alone. I need momentum from a structured moving power source , driving into and from the ground up through the structured chain to my knuckles.
Newtons third law ;)

Like the back cast of a fishing rod to harness the load potential into the forward cast, or drawing back on a rubber band...load is a word for stored potential energy.

For VT purposes the 'bow' or structure, is a crossbow capable of tremendous close quarter penetration with minimal drawing back , telegraphing, to 'reload' the arrow .
SLT , our feet positions support the hip , our knees, hips, spine, shoulders, elbows, wrists, are all aligned to harness the potential force of the bow )- structure.
With our body mass in motion, shifting, facing a target with unpredictable motion, and shooting back too , hopefully with less attention to alignment, balance, timing, etc...:D

The bow )- structure, also has to stay constantly loaded, forwards, moving back, at angles to counter attacks. Seung ma toi ma drills, with angling, shifting to attack, etc...We can drill specific areas of the stance, structure by isolating certain drills.
We can push pull, etc... but as tests, not to replicate as sumo in sparring :D Some confusion arises from students who think the drill test is the fight application.

Chum Kil teaches the bow ) structure, to now move in its intended vertical axis line. Also using sudden twisting torquing action to further add to the structures potential to unleash controlled , aligned force.

So a large part of the VT regimen is chi-sao drilling , not as a arrow feeling arrow exchange, but a partnership of bow meet bow, lets load the bows first with potential energy to send into the arms /arrows, with alignment. Lets help each other get good force exchange so when we go to fight we have this attribute that we developed together.


Chi-sao , done imo , correctly , becomes an intense exchange of force with two )-(
partners using each other to develop this lat sao chit chung of potential explosive forward arrow strikes with our arms.

We arent trying to use the tips of the arrows to play 'blocking feeling games' because we are not fighting in chi-sao, we are developing each others potential to have strong 'loaded' structures.
We, me, allow shots regularly to prove their force and trajectory, distance, allowing arrows to strike us regularly by taking our arms away so each partner can take a shot and develops mindless release of arrows from loaded structures. lat sao chit chung.

We use the chi-sao as a systematic progression of this simple idea.

Hitting a heavy bag also proves this same idea, impact. Kicking with the same ) driving hips behind the kick....

[Hendrik]

However, I do I agree that this thread needs to stay far away from that internal/external crap. Just body mechanics please!


Internal crap?

do you know body mechanics?

[Hendrik]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent. All the Qi stuff is not going to help you to develop that kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU


John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.

[GlennR]

John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.


Oh, and youd be an expert

[YouKnowWho]

John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.
I'm not blind. I'm just allergy to the word "internal".

[WC1277]

Internal crap?

do you know body mechanics?

Sorry hendrik, I wasn't really referring to you or your ideas as much as the pointless banter and back and forth of that other thread which that guy likes to partake in. No insult intended, I like your posts and always read them whether I agree with you or not

[Sean66]

Intention, what you think while executing a movement, effects the quality and dynamic of the movement. This can be said to be "internal" work, and it is not at all mystical or esoteric.
As I said before, professional athletes have known this for decades and often use imagery and meditation techniques in order to enhance their performances.


If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

But how you connect your body like the pole is essential. The use of internal work (or somatic work, if you prefer that term) like imagery can help you in the process of "connecting your body", and can have real effects on the efficacy of your "connectedness".

There is a long tradition of this type of work in the West. In her book "The Thinking Body", published in 1937, Mabel Todd writes:

"Whatever the explanation of how emotional and bodily changes are linked, it is as profoundly true that we are as much affected in our thinking by our bodily attitudes as our bodily attitudes are affected in the reflection of our mental and bodily states"

Todd's research into the psychophysical nature of movement and the practical methods she experimented with, went on to influence people like Lulu Sweigard who developed the field of Ideokinesis, the use of imagined movement in changing the alignment of body structure.

In "Human movement potential: it's ideokinetic facilitation", Sweigard suggests that the
"all-important voluntary contribution from the central nervous system is the idea of movement. Concentration on the image of the movement will let the central nervous system choose the most efficient neuromuscular coordination for it's performance, namely innate reflexes and feedback mehanisms."
She also identified nine "lines of movement" that, in my opinion, are strikingly similar to some of the images used in CMA to produce specific alignment changes.

In addition to Ideokinesis, there are the somatic disciplines of Feldenkreis, Alexander Technique, Autogenic Training, Functional Relaxation, Body-Mind Centering....even the Pilates Method uses "internal" methods of imagery to influence body structure/alignment.
This is a rich heritage, and one worth studying IMHO.

[YouKnowWho]

But how you connect your body like the pole is essential. The use of internal work (or somatic work, if you prefer that term) like imagery can help you in the process of "connecting your body", and can have real effects on the efficacy of your "connectedness".
Could you give more detail on this please? How to develop your structure such that your body and your kicking leg are strongly connected by using your approach?

[Sean66]

First of all I'd like to be clear that I'm not advocating a purely "internal" approach, because I believe all human movement to be inextricably "internal" and "external" (see the above quote by Todd).

What I am saying, is that through the use of imagery techniques (visual imagery, direct and indirect imagery, tactile and kinesthetic imagery, proprioceptive imagery, etc.) we can influence the efficacy of our "wing chun structure".

Since all kicking methods in wing chun are derived from the basic position, yi ji kim yeung ma, the "connectedness" you talk about between the kicking leg and the body can be related to the way in which we develop and train structure in this fundamental stance.

But this still begs the question "what is structure, and how is wing chun structure unique?"

It seems to me that when we are talking about structure, we are really talking about the human body and how it is organized and aligned dynamically in space.

If we define structure like this, in a rather broad, general way, we can then talk about the specific qualities of wing chun structure and how they might differ, for example, from those found in taijiquan structure or bjj structure. We can identify and talk about the underlying movement principles.

Just off the top of my head, three body/movement principals that are important in your example of the kick could be said to be 1) Preservation of vertical alignment 2) co-ordination of upper and lower and 3) Frontal facing.
So, any images that can help your body to express these principals physically can help in the "connectedness" of your kick.

Take vertical alignment, probably the most important principal.
There are literally thousands of images that you might use to influence this. You can use kinesthetic imagery to imagine the three main masses of your body (head, torso and pelvis) to be aligned with the line of gravity. Or you can use visual imagery to imagine your head to be a helium ballon attached to a weight, maybe a bowling ball, located in your pelvis.

Kevin mentioned the image of a bow, which can give an extra tensile and directional quality. You can imagine your spine to be a bow, the top and bottom ends being the top of the head and the coccyx, respectively.

You have to try to find what type of imagery works for you, i.e. which type of imagery and what images help you to produce the desired effect in your movement/body.

[Graham H]

"

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can
.

How can I??? We don't use this in my lineage!!! I suppose I could try for a laugh but I'm not a dreamer and have no time for your stupid ideas!!!

GH

[Sean66]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

[GlennR]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!


Really good post Sean.
The 3 points is a nice summary of structure and i think ill use it a reference tool... thanks.

[trubblman]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

I think you just made it more, not less mysterious.

[Hendrik]

I'm not blind. I'm just allergy to the word "internal".


You are not allergy, you are just thinking you know it all on what you dont know on TCMA striking art.

[Sean66]

Well, we've got to think about these things (like structure) and try to bring a bit of intellectual rigor to our definitions and descriptions.

After all, wing chun claims to be "the thinking man's style" and bases it's legitimacy not only on practical results but on scientific principles.

If we can't first identify the particular ways in which we want to organize our bodies and our movements in wing chun, and understand these physically (biomechanically); if we can't identify the general principles of movement that we use in wing chun; and if we can't clearly talk about the intentions behind our movements, then we will not have a basis for objective discussion.

It's no easy or simple task.....it's movement analysis. There are people that have made great progress in this field, like Rudolph Laban and more recently Rosemary Brandt, who has further developed his ideas, using them to de-mystify something as complex and codefied as classical ballet technique.

Practice hard and study deep, as the saying goes.

[Hendrik]

Oh, and youd be an expert


Sure, what's wrong to be an expert?

[Sean66]

Thanks, GlennR.

But I just offered a possible tool for analysis, not a summary of "wing chun structure", which is, well, quite a task! Quite a task because the various elements, biomechanical, somatic, and functional are connected in a systemic whole.

But, hey, let's all give it a shot. Let's start with the biomechanical/anatomical part. And let's limit our discussion to the position of YJKYM. I think we all agree that the important points of wing chun "structure" can already be found in this position.
Now, I'm no expert in anatomy, but here's my go at it:

1. Vertical Alignement - The central axis of the body (the line created by the intersection of the median sagittal and median frontal planes) is aligned with the vertical line of gravity (LOG).
2. Symmetry – Bilateral symmetry is preserved. The position of the right and left sides of the body are (approximately) mirror images of each other. There is no medial or lateral rotation in the upper body.
3. Distribution of weight – Weight is distributed evenly between the two feet. The body’s center of mass (a point located slightly below the belly button and in front of the second sacral vertebra) is lowered on the LOG.
4. Position of the pelvis – There is a concsious posterior tilting of the pelvis.
5. Position of the hips – Medial rotation of the hip joint along the longitudinal line of the femur. Abduction in the joint is created through the placement of the feet. between pelvis-width and shoulder-width apart.
6. Position of knees – Flextion of the knees (to varying degrees)
7. Position of the feet – Adduction of the feet (the feet are turned toward the center line of the body). There is no inversion or eversion of the feet.

Please add to the list! Let's make it as complete as possible!

[Hendrik]

Sorry hendrik, I wasn't really referring to you or your ideas as much as the pointless banter and back and forth of that other thread which that guy likes to partake in.

No insult intended, I like your posts and always read them whether I agree with you or not


you post offended me

when I am trying to clear out things with John who is a Chinese SC guy who obviously doesnt know the proper TCMA striking art and ignore the Chinese Internal martial artists who fight for life instead of tournaments.


so hope that there is no such post in the future.

[Hendrik]

Thanks, GlennR.

But I just offered a possible tool for analysis, not a summary of "wing chun structure", which is, well, quite a task!

But, hey, let's all give it a shot. Let's start with the biomechanical/anatomical part. And let's limit our discussion to the position of YJKYM. I think we all agree that the important points of wing chun "structure" can already be found in this position.
Now, I'm no expert in anatomy, but here's my go at it:

1. Vertical Alignement - The central axis of the body (the line created by the intersection of the median sagittal and median frontal planes) is aligned with the vertical line of gravity (LOG).
2. Symmetry – Bilateral symmetry is preserved. The position of the right and left sides of the body are (approximately) mirror images of each other. There is no medial or lateral rotation in the upper body.
3. Distribution of weight – Weight is distributed evenly between the two feet. The body’s center of mass (a point located slightly below the belly button and in front of the second sacral vertebra) is lowered on the LOG.
4. Position of the pelvis – There is a concsious posterior tilting of the pelvis.
5. Position of the hips – Medial rotation of the hip joint along the longitudinal line of the femur. Abduction in the joint is created through the placement of the feet. between pelvis-width and shoulder-width apart.
6. Position of knees – Flextion of the knees (to varying degrees)
7. Position of the feet – Adduction of the feet (the feet are turned toward the center line of the body). There is no inversion or eversion of the feet.

Please add to the list! Let's make it as complete as possible!



For me, this above doesnt work.

Because Structure or Rack is a Systemic thing and cannot be view as parts. and in fact the key of structure is to make whole. and your list above is leading to lost in the tree and not seeing the forest.

If to know the structure needs to remember all the above, one will not be able to do it in static not to mention in dynamic situation.

Body structure or Rack are handling differently in External Chinese martial art and Internal Chinese martial art. it is just very simple handling, otherwise it would not be useful in real life high speed situation.

also, different style has different Body Rack, a hung gar , a CLF , a WCK all have different type of rack to support their art. So every style has a way to make whole of their rack to support high speed dynamic application.

[nasmedicine]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

I would agree with the general premise of that statement but the exact categorization scheme.

[nasmedicine]

Do you know why this doesnt work?

Because Structure or Rack is a Systemic thing and cannot be view as parts.

If to know the structure needs to remember all the above, one will not be able to do it in static not to mention in dynamic situation.

Body structure or Rack are handling differently in External Chinese martial art and Internal Chinese martial art. it is just very simple handling, otherwise it would not be useful in real life high speed situation.

Agreed, it cannot be separated because your body frame is connected. Talking about it in pieces will just mislead people.

[Sean66]

Hendrik,

If you read my posts you'll see that that is exactly my point. Structure is a "systemic" thing and can only be fully understood dynamically.

But to start with, we should be clear with what is happening anatomically.

One of the fore-founders of ideokinesis (repeated ideation of a movement without volitional physical effort), Heinrich Kosnick, saw in-depth knowledge of anatomy as a prerequisite to experiencing the correct functioning of the body. And this is someone who developed his own psycho-physiological method of mental imagery to enhance physical skill.
An anatomical/biomechanical analysis is only one part of the hollistic "systemic" understanding.

The point is not to think about all these elements at every given moment - that would be impossible! You wouldn't be able to move...you'd be stuck on the spot! But understanding and analysis can lead to new ways (new images, for example) to improve your training.....because you're clear at the outset as to what physical elements are desired/important.

[Sean66]

Read my previous posts; I am not talking about the body "in pieces"!

[WC1277]

you post offended me

when I am trying to clear out things with John who is a Chinese SC guy who obviously doesnt know the proper TCMA striking art and ignore the Chinese Internal martial artists who fight for life instead of tournaments.


so hope that there is no such post in the future.

Seriously!? Ok, I guess I won't be apologizing to you in the future. Have fun with that guy!

[Hendrik]

Seriously!? Ok, I guess I won't be apologizing to you in the future. Have fun with that guy!

seriously,

If you get some one to translate the chinese article what I post previously to John . You will see what really happen in the Internal martial art ring.



What good for you to pi$$ me off stepping in the middle when I am trying to show John his view is off?

No one like to get insult when one seriously posting a fact which is rarely presented in the west.

I told you you have offended me, i am not shy to tell you have cross line.
I have taken and appreciate your apology. and I have already let go.
close the case and move on

also, is it about that guy or is it i care to let the WCner to see the fact.

[WC1277]

seriously,

If you get some one to translate the chinese article what I post previously to John . You will see what really happen in the Internal martial art ring.

No one like to get insult when one seriously posting a fact which is rarely presented in the west.

What good for you to pi$$ me off stepping in the middle when I am trying to show John his view is off?


I told you you have offended me
I have taken and appreciate your apology. and I have already let go.
close the case and move on.

You speak English, why don't you translate it? And I wasn't getting in the middle, there's a whole nother thread for the internal/external debate if you wish to throw apple sauce against the wall, he ain't changing his mind buddy...

[Hendrik]

Sean,



If you read my posts you'll see that that is exactly my point. Structure is a "systemic" thing and can only be fully understood dynamically.

But to start with, we should be clear with what is happening anatomically.


Intellectually you are right.

However, it is like talking lung, heart, kidney....etc and how each function without the inter reaction and how to harmonized them all together.

also,
There is a real serious issue is the mind doesnt know the body. even if the mind has all the anatomical data, it still has problem with handling the body. not to mention the mind is too slow and cannot handle multiple functions at an instance.


So, going the path you mention cant get too far and if fact, the most it can do is some theoritical stuffs which end up to be in some demo where in the real mmA it cannot hold.




The point is not to think about all these elements at every given moment - that would be impossible! You wouldn't be able to move...you'd be stuck on the spot!


As I mention above, if you think about these elements in action, you mind is preoccupied and your body will stuck.

In Chinese Martial art, both the external way or internal way doesnt require the "think" instead it by passed the "think".

In you have basic control theory class, External way is an open loop control, While internal way is a feed back adaptive control. Sure both has fine tune every elements but mind /thinking is not in the picture when the process kicks in.




But understanding and analysis can lead to new ways (new images, for example) to improve your training.....because you're clear at the outset as to what physical elements are desired/important.

sure, I can model these stuffs into Biomechanics which consist of three elements, the mechancis action (physical joints, muscle) electrical action (intention) Chemistry action ( breathing and Qi).

But even if I tell you every details of these three elements you will not be able to do it without the process and transformation of the body-mind-breathing/Qi.


So, intellectuarize is good but it cannot be taken serious because those are just models. and models is not real.

it is similar to a car, which the rack, the wheel suspention, the fuel system....etc. to know each part is not good enough, and every car has a different system which is both based on general and some different approach.


However, in the reality, it is a transformation of body-mind-breathing/qi into a different " animal" , intellecture or trying to hold on to some structure might sound great or can do some demo, but it just doesnt work in action such as mmA and real fight.

it is like we wake up from sleep without he brain intellectually has to do step one step two or three.....etc one just wake up. So, structure is a system equilibrium at every instant and condition which is automatically run by its own.

[Hendrik]

You speak English, why don't you translate it? And I wasn't getting in the middle, there's a whole nother thread for the internal/external debate if you wish to throw apple sauce against the wall, he ain't changing his mind buddy...


I know he is a top class SC player and he read Chinese. Dont want him to loss face to confront him in front of Westerners. Thus, I confront him in a subtle way with facts in Chinese artcle. To hope he get the message.

It is up to him to be subburn and up to me to call him blind.


any discussion of structure in TCMA striking art cannot avoid Internal and external dependency. unless one is not talking TCMA.

[Hendrik]

How to improve your structure? Just ask your opponent to throw hook punch at you 100 times daily. You use your whole body to block it (not just your arm). The moment that you think about your whole body and not only your arm, your structure is improved. It's easy to develop and it's easy to measure. That's why I have said, "Just do it and don't talk about it".



The above are just very low level external stuffs. the goal is to sustain. This is not even a good structure due to its strong brute physical strenght dependency.


who says I have to sustain you and control by you because I become a defender using my body to sustain? I lost one count and if I do that.

The key is I dont play your game.
No interest to bang my body to you unless you are Megan fox. :D


there are at least three alternative,



1, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you body feel like explode and blow to different segment. how to do this? Do a Fa jing. the WCK shock jin.

2, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you feel like hitting a wall. how to do this? Do a Peng Jing.

3, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you feel like hitting a bag of packaging pop corn and you lost your balance, so you need to pull back. how to do this? Do a Hua Jing.


Explicitly, one doesnt see much different in posture and shape when the above 3 action is taken. in fact even explicitly it looks the same, each action is supported by a different structure. to be specific, one could changes one's force vector or resultant force under the comman of the intention with minimum physical changes. why minimum? because Physical changes take time and one cannot effort much delay.


Now, that is structure, the 3 above is the basic internal martial art structure. That is the real structure within the YJKYM. That is WCK.


Is these real? yes. can one do it? yes. with proper training one can do it. provided one knows the process.

Thus, I am not satisfied with those triangle, forward pressure, stand in a certain way.....etc. those are just holding shape or posture, holding any shape or posture is trouble because there always be weakness, as I mention previously, you hold a triangle, or opponent will be striking the side of the triangle. and changing different posture or shifting posture take times. No matter how fast you shift your canon you still need to move that big canon. that is a weakness.

Thus, in advance art, one does contact point explosion or contact point handling. that is the real type of structure one cultivate. So unless one has those type of structure one really doesnt have a good structure for real fight.

[YouKnowWho]

I am trying to show John his view is off?
It's OK for you to believe in Qi. It's not OK for you to force others to have the same faith as yours. I just said that I'm allergy to "internal". I didn't say that you should be allergy to "internal" too.

Do you see the difference?


The above are just very low level external stuffs...
"External is low level and internal is high level". "TCMA is bad, MMA is good".

Do you see the similiarity?

[Hendrik]

It's OK for you to believe in Qi.

It's not OK for you to force others to have the same faith as yours.

I just said that I'm allergy to "internal".

I didn't say that you should be allergy to "internal" too.

Do you see the difference?





We speak in a different paradigm

Qi is not a believe but chemistry.
Internal is well define and being use for fighting for life and China.

it is not about perspective it is reality. and you can believe what you want. I am presenting what happen in China with facts and real people.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
The above are just very low level external stuffs...


"External is low level and internal is high level". "TCMA is bad, MMA is good". --- YKW


I have not make the claim you made. I said "very low level external stuffs" I didnt say External is low level and internal is high level'.


What you have shown, technically is a very low level brute force stuffs in the Striking art of TCMA be it external or internal. That is not suitable for Wing Chun because Wing Chun's architecture is not supporting those type of big muscle sustaining action. Thus, it is a misleading.




I am clueless on SC so when it comes to SC I can learn alots from you. However, when it comes in the area of striking art that is my bread and butter. I sure has lots of ego too as every one. hahaha

[WC1277]

The above are just very low level external stuffs. the goal is to sustain. This is not even a good structure due to its strong brute physical strenght dependency.


who says I have to sustain you and control by you because I become a defender using my body to sustain? I lost one count and if I do that.

The key is I dont play your game.
No interest to bang my body to you unless you are Megan fox. :D


there are at least three alternative,



1, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you body feel like explode and blow to different segment. how to do this? Do a Fa jing. the WCK shock jin.

2, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you feel like hitting a wall. how to do this? Do a Peng Jing.

3, you hit me, at contact to my tan sau, you feel like hitting a bag of packaging pop corn and you lost your balance, so you need to pull back. how to do this? Do a Hua Jing.


Explicitly, one doesnt see much different in posture and shape when the above 3 action is taken. in fact even explicitly it looks the same, each action is supported by a different structure. to be specific, one could changes one's force vector or resultant force under the comman of the intention with minimum physical changes. why minimum? because Physical changes take time and one cannot effort much delay.


Now, that is structure, the 3 above is the basic internal martial art structure. That is the real structure within the YJKYM. That is WCK.


Is these real? yes. can one do it? yes. with proper training one can do it. provided one knows the process.

Thus, I am not satisfied with those triangle, forward pressure, stand in a certain way.....etc. those are just holding shape or posture, holding any shape or posture is trouble because there always be weakness, as I mention previously, you hold a triangle, or opponent will be striking the side of the triangle. and changing different posture or shifting posture take times. No matter how fast you shift your canon you still need to move that big canon. that is a weakness.

Thus, in advance art, one does contact point explosion or contact point handling. that is the real type of structure one cultivate. So unless one has those type of structure one really doesnt have a good structure for real fight.

I really think you're trying to mix Tai Chi with WC Hendrik and I know you're big into that stuff because I've followed your activity on YouTube. They share similarities but they're not the same when it comes to structure. Like I said earlier WC is all about body mechanics and when to turn on/off power. And like joy said the triangle is like a bore tip or icebreaker.

"You can't have active body and active hands. You can have active hands, passive body or vice versa. You can't have two active hands or two passive hands. You can only have one of each at any given time. If you use structure to deflect on the inside, the deflecting hand will always be active. If you use structure to deflect on the outside, the deflecting hand will always be passive. If you violate any of those principles, you're not using structure in your triangle "shapes"...."

Think about this in the context of shoveling dirt. These principles are switching back and forth a couple hundred times. You bend down to lower shovel to ground(active body, passive arms). You push shovel into ground(one arm active, one arm passive, body passive). You begin to lift up(just like pole, active/passive arms switching rapidly back and forth, body active, both arms passive rapidly adjusting between active/passive as body lifts also switching rapidly back and forth.

Go outside and shovel 'properly' and pay attention to your body. That's structure in application, no internal, just knowing when and how to turn power on and off

[Hendrik]

I really think you're trying to mix Tai Chi with WC Hendrik and I know you're big into that stuff because I've followed your activity on YouTube.

They share similarities but they're not the same when it comes to structure.



Nope.

I dont do mix Taichi, in fact I dont have to.

I use Snake + Crane engine and structure.







Like I said earlier WC is all about body mechanics and when to turn on/off power.

And like joy said the triangle is like a bore tip or icebreaker.



Nope.

WC clearly state as " come accept, goes return, let go thrust forward, using silence to lead action. "

we all could not define WC, WC has been clearly defined. it doesnt say Turn on and off but flow.






"You can't have active body and active hands.


Every part of body is hands. unless one get to this point, one really doesnt have the kung fu.

WC is famous with close body and fast jin meaning it is a very adaptive art any contact point is the explosion point if chose to be. The key of WC Kung Fu is what choice one decide at the contact point. To explode? to absorb? to reflect? Read what Gary Lam wrote a while ago.





You can have active hands, passive body or vice versa. You can't have two active hands or two passive hands. You can only have one of each at any given time.

If you use structure to deflect on the inside, the deflecting hand will always be active.

If you use structure to deflect on the outside, the deflecting hand will always be passive. If you violate any of those principles, you're not using structure in your triangle "shapes"...."



That is an intellectual understanding.

in reality, does this even work in mmA continous action?

again,

" come accept, goes return, let go thrust forward, using silence to lead action. " is the bottom line of WCK.

For me, it is just a flow. not about shape and forms....etc.

and the Kung Fu in WCK is how good one can implement the flow.







Think about this in the context of shoveling dirt. These principles are switching back and forth a couple hundred times. You bend down to lower shovel to ground(active body, passive arms). You push shovel into ground(one arm active, one arm passive, body passive). You begin to lift up(just like pole, active/passive arms switching rapidly back and forth, body active, both arms passive rapidly adjusting between active/passive as body lifts also switching rapidly back and forth.


The above is a single dimensional drill stuffs. in real life where there is multi-dimensional happen in the same time.

Can these type of principle applied ? that is a question.





Go outside and shovel 'properly' and pay attention to your body. That's structure in application, no internal, just knowing when and how to turn power on and off



you know, I have watched a movie decades ago, the movie is about a magician perform levitation. and at one point the theather guard ask the magician where is the strings for that levitation show.

The magician reply, what strings? Vampire simply levitate.

so, you might talking to a vampire now. thus, dont mention strings, because there is no strings but levitate for a vampire :D



Seriously, structure is a big issue. the whole deal on structure is biomechanics, within the biomechanics there are mechanical momentum , electrical, and chemical reaction to be handle. so unless one is a Vampire or transform that way, one cant levitate. also all the human way of thinking with this string and that shape doesnt make a vampire vampire. The transformation does and since then life is a different story.


As for your on and off theory, I dont know have you heard the description from the Old timer of WCK of Ip man's generation and before. They said, WCK is like a scikle which cut both side continously non stop. in today's view that sickle analogy is like a boomerang which cut both side when it spins. so that is what it is and a structure of of a boomerang is not design for on and off but spin and cut any place it touches.

[YouKnowWho]

What you have shown, technically is a very low level brute force stuffs in the Striking art of TCMA be it external or internal.
I hope we are still talking about "structure" here. The "structure" is something that you need to perform a certain task. You need structure for your punch. You also need structure for your kick, lock, and throw. It's general TCMA concept and has nothing to do with style.

In order to be able to stop an incoming oponnet by using your kick (I'm talking about striking art here), your leg and your body should have a perfect alignment with strong structure support. It has nothing to do with whether you have big muscle or not. Please tell me where does the "brute force stuff" play in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxSEy07wQtk

By using your aproach, how will you train your "kick"? How do you develop Peng Jing on your leg?

[nasmedicine]

we all could not define WC, WC has been clearly defined. it doesnt say Turn on and off but flow.

I agree, pure wing chun is practice as a flow with not beginning or end. flow = infinity, IMHO


Every part of body is hands. unless one get to this point, one really doesnt have the kung fu.

This is very true and something many people don't understand or think of.


WC is famous with close body and fast jin meaning it is a very adaptive art any contact point is the explosion point if chose to be. The key of WC Kung Fu is what choice one decide at the contact point. To explode? to absorb? to reflect?

Agreed. You can choose to hit and defend or whatever from any point within the flow.


That is an intellectual understanding.

Something again most people lack.



For me, it is just a flow. not about shape and forms....etc.

and the Kung Fu in WCK is how good one can implement the flow.

For myself as well, Forms are only a guideline. Mantras are to help develop the concept not the law. To many try to conform to what they think wing chun to be or look like, instead simply "letting go".

[WC1277]

To Hendrik and nasmedicine -

First off, who said anything about forms? I'm talking very specifically about structure in motion. You both choose to use general terms like "flow" and say that I'm using over intellectualism. You both should take a college course in human kinetics.

Oh yeah, the boomerang Hendrik. The forward swinging side is the "active" while the rear side is the "passive". Both necessary for structural momentum, integrity, and yes, cutting.....

Seriously for one who is so in touch with your body, you're not apparently aware of your own joint structure movement....

[nasmedicine]

To Hendrik and nasmedicine -

First off, who said anything about forms? I'm talking very specifically about structure in motion. You both choose to use general terms like "flow" and say that I'm using over intellectualism. You both should take a college course in human kinetics.

Oh yeah, the boomerang Hendrik. The forward swinging side is the "active" while the rear side is the "passive". Both necessary for structural momentum, integrity, and yes, cutting.....

Seriously for one who is so in touch with your body, you're not apparently aware of your own joint structure movement....

Sir, I can not speak for Hendriks however my when I speak of structure I automatically speak in terms of dynamic. Static structure has no place in the martial arts, unless you are doing some type of demonstration. Flow is not a general term, it's by definition to move along or out steadily and continuously on a defined or undefined path. When you move in wing chun you move with structure, of course you would not move like a robot or in a vogue like fashion. You would/should flow. As far as being aware of my own body, it's silly to say that I am not. If you practice any martial art for fighting you will of course be aware of your body (mechanics, angle, weight distribution) but when put in to practice you body does not think in terms of mechanics, angle, weight distribution, etc, instead it just "does" or "flows". You are looking to break something down that really can't be truely broken down(it can be but it's way to much and there are people who have already written books on human movement and how it applies to martial arts). It's like trying to have a professional athlete explain what he's doing and how. Most of them can not or can only give a very rudimentary explanation because they are naturally able to do it. It's inherent within them. They were eithier born gifted or trained properly to the point of near perfection (right teacher, intelligence, and training). I have taken numerous courses involving human anatomy and movement but I tell you that will not explain completely how these things work and to be quite honest I personally don't feel like writing that much. It's to much of a chore to break it all down into moments, forces, equations and theory.

[trubblman]

I really think you're trying to mix Tai Chi with WC Hendrik and I know you're big into that stuff because I've followed your activity on YouTube. They share similarities but they're not the same when it comes to structure. Like I said earlier WC is all about body mechanics and when to turn on/off power.

Actually VT and Tai Chi are very similar in structure. In fact VT and most martial arts derived are similar in structure, not exactly the same but the similarities are too close for it to be more coincidence. Shared characteristics include the pelvic tilt, making the spine straight, relaxation. There are more of course.

The principles are derived from Daoyin practice. What is that? Here is what wikipedia says Tao Yin is: Tao Yin is a series of physical exercises practiced by Taoists to cultivate ch'i, the internal energy of the body according to Traditional Chinese Medicine. The practice of Tao Yin was a precursor of qigong, and was practised in Chinese Taoist monasteries for health and spiritual cultivation.Tao Yin, along with Shaolin Ch'uan, is also said to be a primary formative ingredient in the well-known "soft style" Chinese martial art, T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

People dont have faith in this stuff nowadays. And people have good grounds not to believe in it. But if you believe that VT has Shaolin roots then rest assured that the folks who developed VT believed in it.

VT and Tai Chi of course are not the same but the similarities arise because they arise out of similar circumstances, in religious temples.

[Hendrik]

Sir, I can not speak for Hendriks however my when I speak of structure I automatically speak in terms of dynamic. Static structure has no place in the martial arts, unless you are doing some type of demonstration. Flow is not a general term, it's by definition to move along or out steadily and continuously on a defined or undefined path. When you move in wing chun you move with structure, of course you would not move like a robot or in a vogue like fashion. You would/should flow. As far as being aware of my own body, it's silly to say that I am not. If you practice any martial art for fighting you will of course be aware of your body (mechanics, angle, weight distribution) but when put in to practice you body does not think in terms of mechanics, angle, weight distribution, etc, instead it just "does" or "flows". You are looking to break something down that really can't be truely broken down(it can be but it's way to much and there are people who have already written books on human movement and how it applies to martial arts). It's like trying to have a professional athlete explain what he's doing and how. Most of them can not or can only give a very rudimentary explanation because they are naturally able to do it. It's inherent within them. They were eithier born gifted or trained properly to the point of near perfection (right teacher, intelligence, and training). I have taken numerous courses involving human anatomy and movement but I tell you that will not explain completely how these things work and to be quite honest I personally don't feel like writing that much. It's to much of a chore to break it all down into moments, forces, equations and theory.



Great!

also, John here is one of the best Suai Chio master in our time.

So, ask him is there any place in all the holding of posture, shape....etc in real deal? when a Suai Chio wresler take attack one.


For me, if the Wrestle can grap you at the first move, you already lost 60%. The second move he is just eating you alive.

So, there is no way all these shape and holding some joints position....etc comes to play in real life. as the attack will come from any angle.

[Hendrik]

Seriously for one who is so in touch with your body, you're not apparently aware of your own joint structure movement....


the body of those who has master the art has transform into a dynamic force vectors field.

that is because dynamic force vectors or momentum vectors are the result one needs , not what the shape of the joints or the posture of the body...etc.

[Hendrik]

Actually VT and Tai Chi are very similar in structure. In fact VT and most martial arts derived are similar in structure, not exactly the same but the similarities are too close for it to be more coincidence. Shared characteristics include the pelvic tilt, making the spine straight, relaxation. There are more of course.

The principles are derived from Daoyin practice. What is that? Here is what wikipedia says Tao Yin is: Tao Yin is a series of physical exercises practiced by Taoists to cultivate ch'i, the internal energy of the body according to Traditional Chinese Medicine. The practice of Tao Yin was a precursor of qigong, and was practised in Chinese Taoist monasteries for health and spiritual cultivation.Tao Yin, along with Shaolin Ch'uan, is also said to be a primary formative ingredient in the well-known "soft style" Chinese martial art, T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

People dont have faith in this stuff nowadays. And people have good grounds not to believe in it. But if you believe that VT has Shaolin roots then rest assured that the folks who developed VT believed in it.

VT and Tai Chi of course are not the same but the similarities arise because they arise out of similar circumstances, in religious temples.



This is Wugulun Shao lin take a look what is their structure? is that Taiji? or Shao Lin? or this is the Shao lin which predated Taiji? or it tells a truth in body structure?

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinwugulunkungfu#p/u/8/ZbymZ72CzmQ

[nasmedicine]

Actually VT and Tai Chi are very similar in structure.

I concur, the general concepts are similar but the POV is different, as is with all martial arts who practice at the top tier.


The principles are derived from Daoyin practice.

Very nice to see someone acknowledge this. This is true and I'm impressed to see it mentioned hear on this forum especially.


People dont have faith in this stuff nowadays. And people have good grounds not to believe in it. But if you believe that VT has Shaolin roots then rest assured that the folks who developed VT believed in it.

I don't like the use of the word faith, because it implies that people don't believe in something that they can't trust/prove. This is not a matter of faith but rather how you have been taught WC. Even more important there is not faith if you can see the results for yourself. If a sifu shows you something and you are not able to do it in a short period of time (weeks to months) then he's not teaching you correctly or his WC method does not suit you personally. Doaism/Doaist arts predate shaolin, I feel that WC root predate shaolin, IMHO.



......................

[Hendrik]

I hope we are still talking about "structure" here. The "structure" is something that you need to perform a certain task. You need structure for your punch. You also need structure for your kick, lock, and throw. It's general TCMA concept and has nothing to do with style.

In order to be able to stop an incoming oponnet by using your kick (I'm talking about striking art here), your leg and your body should have a perfect alignment with strong structure support. It has nothing to do with whether you have big muscle or not. Please tell me where does the "brute force stuff" play in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxSEy07wQtk

By using your aproach, how will you train your "kick"? How do you develop Peng Jing on your leg?



John,

you have changed topic. take a look at your post I am refering to as "rute force stuff"

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1117784&postcount=38

[Hendrik]

some times, I think it is cruel to break some one's dream on WCK structure.

[nasmedicine]

some times, I think it is cruel to break some one's dream on WCK structure.

lol :cool:

[YouKnowWho]

John,

you have changed topic. take a look at your post I am refering to as "rute force stuff"

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1117784&postcount=38

I didn't not change topic. I gave 3 examples. the Tang Sau is just one of those 3. The Tang Sau example is no different from the Taiji peng Jin. I thought "whole body should function as one single unit" and "only seeing the body move and not seeing the limbs move" are just common sense for all TCMA systems. There isn't much to talk about for that example.

When you push a car, that car will move. When you push a straw house, that straw house will collapse. The difference is one has structure but the other has not. This is the way that I test "structure".

If you do think that "function your body as one single unit" is "brute force stuff" then I truly have nothing more to say. :(

[Sean66]

@Hendrik

trying to hold on to some structure might sound great or can do some demo, but it just doesnt work in action such as mmA and real fight.

I agree with you. But I never suggested "holding on" to a particular structure.
Again, I defined structure as the dynamic postural alignment of the body in space. There's the kinesthetic aspect, the somatic aspect and the functional aspect implied in this definition. All aspects work together.

[Hendrik]

@Hendrik


I agree with you. But I never suggested "holding on" to a particular structure.


Again, I defined structure as the dynamic postural alignment of the body in space.

There's the kinesthetic aspect, the somatic aspect and the functional aspect implied in this definition. All aspects work together.



Ok.

for me, if one doesnt have a process of transformation all those different aspect are just reasoning which can not be realized in the real physical world.

[Hendrik]

The following is my view.


The Tang Sau example is no different from the Taiji peng Jin.

Nope.


Tan Sau is not Peng jing. it cannot be.

also there is a different between Peng Jin and Peng the movement.


so , you missed both.







I thought "whole body should function as one single unit" and "only seeing the body move and not seeing the limbs move" are just common sense for all TCMA systems.

There isn't much to talk about for that example.


there are many ways to function as one single unit.
Some brute force clumsy way and some elegant way.





When you push a car, that car will move. When you push a straw house, that straw house will collapse. The difference is one has structure but the other has not. This is the way that I test "structure".

I good structure use much less effort and very a live. a bad structure use all force and clumsy.






If you do think that "function your body as one single unit" is "brute force stuff" then I truly have nothing more to say. :(


I have never said function your body as one single unit is brute force stuffs.

I said, even function your body as one single unit there are smart, elegant , effective way and there are brute force and clumpsy way.


In a striking art, be able to have a smart, elegant, effective way is the bottom line.

[nasmedicine]

Ok.

for me, if one doesnt have a process of transformation all those different aspect are just reasoning which can not be realized in the real physical world.

Great! Couldn't have said it better myself.

[YouKnowWho]

As long as you can achieve "structure - function your body as one single unit", I truly don't care which path that you take. Since you may care about "smart" way vs. "clumpsy" way, we can just agree with our disagreement there.

[Hendrik]

As long as you can achieve "function your body as one single unit", I truly don't care which path that you take.

Since you may care about "smart" way vs. "clumpsy" way, we can just agree with our disagreement there.



I would not say, as soon as I learn how to take down a person I know Suai Chio.

It will be absolutely ridiculus if I am saying that.

everyone knows the key is in details and insight. a little off is off by 10000 miles, That is why I never argue Suai Chio with you; and in fact I humble love to learn Sui Chio from you and take you as my sifu in Suai Chio.

[WC1277]

Hendik,

Why do you hijack threads, give very general terms in your explanations, and then tell people there's no way for them to be successful without "transformation"?

This thread was meant to discuss structure in an intellectual way, not put mysticism in it. If you can't translate your expressions into an scientific description, you really have no business preaching. Chi preaching isn't good enough for this day and age, be specific.

I also don't understand why you're stating that the triangle means nothing. If it means nothing then call your stuff something other than WC. I come from one of the most theory/scientific oriented lineages available and the majority of what you say is ideas you've added on to the system

[Hendrik]

Hendik,

Why do you hijack threads, give very general terms in your explanations, and then tell people there's no way for them to be successful without "transformation"?

This thread was meant to discuss structure in an intellectual way, not put mysticism in it. If you can't translate your expressions into an scientific description, you really have no business preaching. Chi preaching isn't good enough for this day and age, be specific.

I also don't understand why you're stating that the triangle means nothing. If it means nothing then call your stuff something other than WC.

I come from one of the most theory/scientific oriented lineages available and the majority of what you say is ideas you've added on to the system


I let others to answer for me.

[Sean66]

for me, if one doesnt have a process of transformation all those different aspect are just reasoning which can not be realized in the real physical world.

Again, re-read my previous posts on the subject and reflect upon the content. I wrote, for example, that the gained clarity (through the three-fold analysis that I suggested) can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students.

In other words, a better, more complete understanding of what we're doing will help us in developing real, concrete training methods that can help us "transform" our bodies in the specific ways required by the style.

Take the pelvis, for example.
We often identify "whole body movement" or "unity of upper and lower" to be a central movement/body principle in wing chun. When we look at the body biomechanically, we quickly understand that the positioning of the pelvis is key in developing the dynamic connection between the feet (and therefore the floor), the legs and the upper body. Here's what Eric Franklin says about the pelvis in "Dynamic Alignment Through Imagery":

"The pelvis is the hub of the body, a center of stability and originator of motion. Any large action in space necessitates a weight shift of the pelvis. Due to its large mass relative to the rest of the body, pelvic misalignments cause significant reactions up and down the body chain. The pelvis mediates between the legs and the spine, cushioning excess impact from below before it can reach the delicate spinal cord. The strongest muscle in our body, the gluteus, attaches to the pelvis, and many other large muscles either attach or cross through it. Cradled within, we find our deep abdominal organs lending tone and interconnectedness to the pelvis. Much like a slanted bowl of fruit in a renaissance painter's still life, the hydrostatic and fluid qualities of the organs mesh with the bony, muscular, and ligamentous elements to create a balanced whole"

So, we see that a biomechanical understanding of the pelvis teaches us that it is of, well, central importance to our concept of whole body movement!
The question is, how then are you going to teach proper wing chun pelvic alignment to your students? How should the pelvis be aligned in wing chun (biomechanical analysis) and why (functional analysis)? Are you just going to say things like "tuck the pelvis" or "get your hips in" and hope that that works? What images and training methods are you going to use to help your students effectuate a real change in pelvic alignment to create the dynamic connectedness that we seek?

I don't have time to go into it more right now, but, again, my point is that informed analysis can help generate the training methods. Theory and praxis together, of course.

Dancers have been using movement analysis for years to help improve training methods and performance....very real and tangible results.

[WC1277]

Again, re-read my previous posts on the subject and reflect upon the content. I wrote, for example, that the gained clarity (through the three-fold analysis that I suggested) can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students.

In other words, a better, more complete understanding of what we're doing will help us in developing real, concrete training methods that can help us "transform" our bodies in the specific ways required by style.

Take the pelvis, for example.
We often identify "whole body movement" or "unity of upper and lower" to be a central movement/body principle in wing chun. When we look at the body biomechanically, we quickly understand that the positioning of the pelvis is key in developing the dynamic connection between the feet (and therefore the floor), the legs and the upper body. Here's what Eric Franklin says about the pelvis in "Dynamic Alignment Through Imagery":

"The pelvis is the hub of the body, a center of stability and originator of motion. Any large action in space necessitates a weight shift of the pelvis. Due to its large mass relative to the rest of the body, pelvic misalignments cause significant reactions up and down the body chain. The pelvis mediates between the legs and the spine, cushioning excess impact from below before it can reach the delicate spinal cord. The strongest muscle in our body, the gluteus, attaches to the pelvis, and many other large muscles either attach or cross through it. Cradled within, we find our deep abdominal organs lending tone and interconnectedness to the pelvis. Much like a slanted bowl of fruit in a renaissance painter's still life, the hydrostatic and fluid qualities of the organs mesh with the bony, muscular, and ligamentous elements to create a balanced whole"

So, we see that a biomechanical understanding of the pelvis teaches us that it is of, well, central importance to our concept of whole body movement!
The question is, how then are you going to teach proper wing chun pelvic alignment to your students? How should the pelvis be aligned in wing chun (biomechanical analysis) and why (functional analysis)? Are you just going to say things like "tuck the pelvis" or "get your hips in" and hope that that works? What images and training methods are you going to use to help your students effectuate a real change in pelvic alignment to create the dynamic connectedness that we seek?

I don't have time to go into it more right now, but, again, my point is that informed analysis can help generate the training methods. Theory and praxis together, of course.

Dancers have been using movement analysis for years to help improve training methods and performance....very real and tangible results.

Excellent post sean66

[Hendrik]

In other words, a better, more complete understanding of what we're doing will help us in developing real, concrete training methods that can help us "transform" our bodies in the specific ways required by style.




Sure. I agree.

However, there is a gap between understanding and having the specific process. That closing that gap is the key. understanding is a support.

[nasmedicine]

Again, re-read my previous posts on the subject and reflect upon the content. I wrote, for example, that the gained clarity (through the three-fold analysis that I suggested) can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students.

I see what your saying, for teaching purposes you have to start somewhere so that the student can have a chance to (using Hendriks terminology) transform.

[theo]

Hendik,

Why do you hijack threads, give very general terms in your explanations, and then tell people there's no way for them to be successful without "transformation"?

This thread was meant to discuss structure in an intellectual way, not put mysticism in it. If you can't translate your expressions into an scientific description, you really have no business preaching. Chi preaching isn't good enough for this day and age, be specific.

I also don't understand why you're stating that the triangle means nothing. If it means nothing then call your stuff something other than WC. I come from one of the most theory/scientific oriented lineages available and the majority of what you say is ideas you've added on to the system


WC1277, there is nothing mystical about what Hendrik is saying. He is simply looking at structure from a different paradigm, one that doesn't break things down into triangles and shapes. It's more about preserving the ability to deal with momentum at any instant with any part of the body. If you can do that then you have dynamic structure. So this means the body follows the hands and adjusts to what jin one "hears" and how one decides to respond to it. In real life action, things change every instant so talking about specific triangles and shapes doesn't make it any easier to apply. To be able to adapt and respond without thought naturally is much harder when one has to consider his elbow position or is stuck in some concept of elbows always on centerline for example.

[Sean66]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, during a fight or violent encounter, one should be thinking about triangles and other pre-concieved shapes for the body to assume. This would clearly be detrimental to one's general health.

As you stated, structure is dynamic and must adapt to a changing situation. But I think the discussion was geared toward how specifically to train structure. And in the training process, thinking about abstract things like "triangles" or "bows" may help one to engage or build that dynamic structure.

And in our training it helps to understand just what that "dynamic structure" is. What do we mean by that? How do we define it? How do you explain it to your students?

[WC1277]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, during a fight or violent encounter, one should be thinking about triangles and other pre-concieved shapes for the body to assume. This would clearly be detrimental to one's general health.

As you stated, structure is dynamic and must adapt to a changing situation. But I think the discussion was geared toward how specifically to train structure. And in the training process, thinking about abstract things like "triangles" or "bows" may help one to engage or build that dynamic structure.

And in our training it helps to understand just what that "dynamic structure" is. What do we mean by that? How do we define it? How do you explain it to your students?

Another good post Sean. You're the only PB guy I like on this forum. Nice to see a different kind of representation for a change.....

[Hendrik]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, during a fight or violent encounter, one should be thinking about triangles and other pre-concieved shapes for the body to assume. This would clearly be detrimental to one's general health.

As you stated, structure is dynamic and must adapt to a changing situation.


But I think the discussion was geared toward how specifically to train structure. And in the training process, thinking about abstract things like "triangles" or "bows" may help one to engage or build that dynamic structure.

And in our training it helps to understand just what that "dynamic structure" is. What do we mean by that? How do we define it? How do you explain it to your students?


That Boad face above is the problem.


In reality, in action, the dynamic structure has to by passed the mind and flow out.
once one get into the shape there is no dynamic.

the way of having dynamic structure is to be able to handle six directional force vectors balancing at all time, disregard of what style the person study.

You dont have to believe me.
Just take a test at high speed and see how your body response with the above habitual triangle shape... bow.... analysis of every joints.... biomechanics ....thinking process.




how good is the triangle structure in real life in this clip? there is no dynamic structure here. the WCner simply doesnt have dynamic but static triangle structure/posture. that is his habit and what he trying to keep in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZYQwNLAnAI

[Sean66]

Hendrik,

Bows, triangles, "an intangible energy lifting the crown of the head" (xu ilng ding jin, from the taijiquan treatise), six directional force vectors.....these are all images, mental constructs that may help us understand and build the dynamic body alignment (structure) that we're talking about. It is but one part of the training process....

I never suggested that one should force one's body into a pre-conceived, ideal shape. In fact, this is the worst thing you can do, producing only robotic, un-natural movement (bu ziran), as in the clip that you posted.
Instead, one should use all the training methods at one's disposal (imagery, forms, partner training, hitting the heavy bag, etc) to discover the dynamic alignment from within. It must unfold from one's own body.

But for this to happen, we have to be very clear about what that structure is and what we want to achieve by "building it".

And, of course, the end goal is that that "structure" expresses itself spontaneously and freely when it's needed. I think that's what you mean when you say "In reality, in action, the dynamic structure has to by passed the mind and flow out."

[Vajramusti]

That Boad face above is the problem.


In reality, in action, the dynamic structure has to by passed the mind and flow out.
once one get into the shape there is no dynamic.

the way of having dynamic structure is to be able to handle six directional force vectors balancing at all time, disregard of what style the person study.

You dont have to believe me.
Just take a test at high speed and see how your body response with the above habitual triangle shape... bow.... analysis of every joints.... biomechanics ....thinking process.




how good is the triangle structure in real life in this clip? there is no dynamic structure here. the WCner simply doesnt have dynamic but static triangle structure/posture. that is his habit and what he trying to keep in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZYQwNLAnAI

___________________________________

In the link provided-
There is no structure evident in the case of the wcer in my opinion.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

___________________________________

In the link provided-
There is no structure evident in the case of the wcer in my opinion.

joy chaudhuri
-------------------------------------------------------
PS- Structure does not mean being frozen and rigid and immobile.

jpy c

[Hendrik]

This is good structure and power/momentum generation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ammWzpws4

[Sean66]

So maybe you can give us a bit of analysis.
What specific "structure" does the person in the video exhibit and why is this particular structure good for power generation/momentum?

It's a video, so all we can do is analyze what we see. We can't know the inner intention. We don't know if the guy is imagining force vectors or bows or triangles or whatnot....or that his dantian is rotating this way or that or his chi sinking...we can just comment on his movement/alignment.

So what about his movement/alignment makes you say that he has "good structure"?

[trubblman]

So maybe you can give us a bit of analysis.
What specific "structure" does the person in the video exhibit and why is this particular structure good for power generation/momentum?

So what about his movement/alignment makes you say that he has "good structure"?

Structure can be better felt then seen thru a video. If you were there in the room then and only then can you really perceive if he has structure. I crack up at these
Internet video analysts.

[Vajramusti]

This is good structure and power/momentum generation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ammWzpws4
-----------------------------------------------------

That is a decent Hsing I structure in motion. But wing chun is not hsing I.

joy chaudhuriThere are alternative ways to deal with structure.Good versions of Ip Man wing chun can have very good structure and dynamics.

One of several possible examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

Structure to me is the sup ming dim.

[Sean66]

Well, Trubblman, I agree, it's better felt.

But Hendrik posted a video as an example of what he perceives to be "good structure". Now I assume that he has never met the man in the video. So he states this only on the basis of what he sees. He has an idea about what good structure is in the martial arts and what it looks like. It's natural, therfore, that I ask him to explain specifically what he sees as "good structure" in relation to the movement and alignment of the guy in the vid.

I mean, can't we talk about it in an objective way at all? Is it something so ephemeral that it's beyond all analysis and understanding?

[Hendrik]

-----------------------------------------------------

That is a decent Hsing I structure in motion. But wing chun is not hsing I.




For me,

it doesnt matter, there are common denominator which is common in all art including mmA.

Thus, style is not the issue.

The issues is what are these common denominators and how to define a good structure in motion.

[Hendrik]

-----------------------------------------------------


One of several possible examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for the clips,

Liu certainly has very good Wing Chun.

[Sean66]

it doesnt matter, there are common denominator which is common in all art including mmA.

So what are/is the common denominators/denominator?

[Hendrik]

So what are/is the common denominators/denominator?

one first needs to define what is a good dynamic structure, otherwise, one doenst know what to look for. So what is a good dynamic structure? what is it mean to have a good dynamic structure?

[Sean66]

That's what I'm asking you!!

[Hendrik]

That's what I'm asking you!!

i have answer in everything in my previous posts. they might not be what you expected or think, thus, you dont see them.

Now, disregards of me, what are you answer? what is a good dynamic structure means? what is a good dynamic structure? until one can define what it is one really cant go further. So what is it according to you?

[Hendrik]

All basic structure stuffs disregards of style are defined clearly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eGVgq-x1s&feature=related

[Sean66]

I, too, gave a stab at defining structure in this thread.
Here's what I wrote:
"It seems to me that when we are talking about structure, we are really talking about the human body and how it is organized and aligned dynamically in space.

If we define structure like this, in a rather broad, general way, we can then talk about the specific qualities of wing chun structure and how they might differ, for example, from those found in taijiquan structure or bjj structure. We can identify and talk about the underlying movement principles."

In martial arts we need to (obviously) align the body in different ways to perform different tasks, constantly navigating between maximum mobility and maximum stability, between absorbing/diverting force and issuing force. A good structure is therefore stable yet mobile; one that can absorb without collapsing and issue force without loosing central equilibrium.


One of the first things we notice about good structure is the efficient vertical alignment of the body with the line of gravity. The body is not busy wasting energy to compensate for mis-alignment, but is relaxed and centered.

Secondly, there is a strong connection between "upper" and "lower" through the positioning/movement of the pelvis.

Thirdly, the general body positioning is compact and movement does not project beyond the kinesphere.

I showed the video you posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ammWzpws4
to two dancer friends of mine, and this is their analysis (mind you they know nothing about martial arts):
-The feet are rooted and there is a strong relationship between the movements of the hands and arms and the connection with the ground.
-There is a wave-like circulation of the movement throughout the entire skeletal structure, particularly through the pelvis
-The space utilized is frontal, relatively reduced (small)
-The movement is bound. Is contained before being "thrown" or "projected"
-Movement is direct, but alternates between continuous, circular and bound on the one hand, and linear, direct and rapid on the other.
-Large capacity to contract and release with an efficient use of energy

And this is what they saw after watching the video just two times. Illustrates the fact that we can constructively talk about what we see in movement in order to better understand it.

[Vajramusti]

All basic structure stuffs disregards of style are defined clearly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eGVgq-x1s&feature=related
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

???? Ofcourse CXW is superb... but I don;t get your point.

It's ok.

joy

[Hendrik]

I, too, gave a stab at defining structure in this thread.
Here's what I wrote:
"It seems to me that when we are talking about structure, we are really talking about the human body and how it is organized and aligned dynamically in space.

If we define structure like this, in a rather broad, general way, we can then talk about the specific qualities of wing chun structure and how they might differ, for example, from those found in taijiquan structure or bjj structure. We can identify and talk about the underlying movement principles."

In martial arts we need to (obviously) align the body in different ways to perform different tasks, constantly navigating between maximum mobility and maximum stability, between absorbing/diverting force and issuing force. A good structure is therefore stable yet mobile; one that can absorb without collapsing and issue force without loosing central equilibrium.


One of the first things we notice about good structure is the efficient vertical alignment of the body with the line of gravity. The body is not busy wasting energy to compensate for mis-alignment, but is relaxed and centered.

Secondly, there is a strong connection between "upper" and "lower" through the positioning/movement of the pelvis.

Thirdly, the general body positioning is compact and movement does not project beyond the kinesphere.

I showed the video you posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ammWzpws4
to two dancer friends of mine, and this is their analysis (mind you they know nothing about martial arts):
-The feet are rooted and there is a strong relationship between the movements of the hands and arms and the connection with the ground.
-There is a wave-like circulation of the movement throughout the entire skeletal structure, particularly through the pelvis
-The space utilized is frontal, relatively reduced (small)
-The movement is bound. Is contained before being "thrown" or "projected"
-Movement is direct, but alternates between continuous, circular and bound and linear, direct and rapid.
-Large capacity to contract and release with an efficient use of energy

And this is what they saw after watching the video just two times. Illustrates the fact that we can constructively talk about what we see in movement in order to better understand it.


Thanks.

This is a great start.

Your dancer friends are great! They know my music. they have told you in your language on what is and what are the points to look in a good dynamic structure.

[Sean66]

All basic structure stuffs disregards of style are defined clearly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eGV...eature=related

Structure is not defined here. Shown, but not defined, using words.

Why don't you describe what you see for us.
I'm not trying to be pushy, mind you. I'm truly interested in your opinion.

[Hendrik]

Structure is not defined here. Shown, but not defined, using words.

Why don't you describe what you see for us.
I'm not trying to be pushy, mind you. I'm truly interested in your opinion.


describe in chinese.

[Hendrik]

ask your dancer friends to describe the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl8mg4Pg6o&feature=related


and you can compare with their previous description.



Structure is not a frame. frame has those triangle.. bows.....etc ..
holding a frame or visualization doesnt mean having a structure.



six directional force vectors is not a frame or motion.
it described how momentum of " The movement is bound. Is contained before being "thrown" or "projected and after projected"" it describes dynamics and boundary and balacing of a structure in motion.......



I dont use WCK clips here because in very general WCK people confuse frame with structure and doesnt aware of movement bounding and balancing in action.




For me, I am biased and picky,


The following are to demostrate a power of a proper frame type and not structure in dynamic.

This is a good begining and they did an excellent job for it;

but these type of practice if take wrongly as dogma by the audiance will lock one into a very Fix frame type which doesnt get into dynamic structure and thus cannot be used in mmA.
it is a special case demo or study.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8eQy49S0Os&feature=related





Ask your dancer friends again to describe the above two clips. and see what they said and you can compare it with their previous description. using a third party to communicate will be better.

[Hendrik]

structure is something dynamically alive and beyond form or frame.




frame can be good training aids for to get to structure.

however, keep holding on a frame " as suggested in SNT practice, elbow in center line, clamping knees, tight ankle...." are keeping one lock in a closet of frame forever instead of getting to structure.

In real life action, anyone habitually trying to keep a frame will get into trouble of get stuck. it is like keep thinking water has to look like a cup.

[Hendrik]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

???? Ofcourse CXW is superb... but I don;t get your point.

It's ok.

joy



His word on structure " Qi flow and body as a unit at every moment, not chaos at high speed, not scattered at slow motion. " I think that is an excellent description of structure.

structure is universal.
http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinwugulunkungfu#p/u/21/wrkwiADsX9c

[Sean66]

This is interesting.
It's very similar to Joan Skinner's (danced in the Martha Graham Company, Cunningham Dance Company) concept of "releasing", a model of dynamic alignment which is based on movement flow, on a "constant flux without grabbing onto anything....You get your orientation not by holding onto some center, but by letting the energy flow within you, through you and around you."

By the way, I'll show the other two vids to my dancer friends and get their analysis. Might have to wait til tomorrow though.

[Hendrik]

This is interesting.
It's very similar to Joan Skinner's (danced in the Martha Graham Company, Cunningham Dance Company) concept of "releasing", a model of dynamic alignment which is based on movement flow, on a "constant flux without grabbing onto anything....You get your orentation not by holding onto some center, but by letting the energy flow within you, through you and around you."

By the way, I'll show the other two vids to my dancer friends and get their analysis. Might have to wait til tomorrow though.



We are heading toward something good.


I think it is better to use the dancer's term to communicate , since their terminology is not as dry as physics which get too technical. dancing is an old art, so it could relate better in this case.



" constant flux...." is a goal of traditional Chinese martial art cultivation as in level 2 here that is dynamic structure. it is certainly not holding on your YJKYM, your elbow, your chain punch, your triangle..... your bows , your root , your grounding, your wing chun...... it is every shape/frame must go and let the energy flow.

Note that CXW doesnt mention about Root and Grounding at all in the above clip. Why?
the usual general root and grounding concept is just get one nail down to death. those are not the training which can lead to dynamic structure but brute force.

Levitate is the key to dynamic structure not root or grounding. so one must do standing stake until one feels levitate to start the journey, intentionally to feel grounding solidly as the general is wrong way. that is just means the lower half of the body is forcefully tense up and stuck. for an extremely beginner that is ok but not stuck there and not progress further.

------------

C, 中国傳统武功一般有三个層次.

Traditional Chinese martial art cultivation has three level in general.




1, 固本功夫練: 意靜,形正, 气順. 做到意形气相合為一

1, the first level is to make solid the foundation. In this level, one trains to quiet the mind/intention, proper shape/structure, and smooth nature flow of Qi/breathing. The goal is to attain the unification of Mind/Intention, shape/structure, and Qi.


2, 應用功夫練 : 換勁,气勢, 心神. 所謂: 气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔

2, The second level is to train the martial application. In this level, one trains to transform different type of Jin/force vectors, Momentum, and spirit. The goal is to attain " Qi link with intention could be evoke-able at any time, not bound by structure and un-stopable flow."



3, 養生功夫練 : 变化精神气貭. 所謂:進人无為而无不為.

3, The third level is to transform one's Living. In this level, one transcents/transform the quality of one's mind/body/ spirit. The goal is to enter the state of Dao mimic the nature or Wu Wei.
--------------




"Now I understand
What you tried to say to me
How you suffered for your sanity
How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they did not know how
Perhaps they'll listen now.."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipFMJckZOM

[Hendrik]

I am taking off, let you all have fun from here. Good job Sean.

[Vajramusti]

Starry starry night again? Time to go walkabout!!

joy c

[GlennR]

This is interesting.
It's very similar to Joan Skinner's (danced in the Martha Graham Company, Cunningham Dance Company) concept of "releasing", a model of dynamic alignment which is based on movement flow, on a "constant flux without grabbing onto anything....You get your orientation not by holding onto some center, but by letting the energy flow within you, through you and around you."

By the way, I'll show the other two vids to my dancer friends and get their analysis. Might have to wait til tomorrow though.

Hi Sean
Just as a side note, while i appreciate your interest in the comparison between dancers and WCers, what do you hope to gain out of it?

Personally, i really appreciate your well explained thoughts on structure, but i think that the dancer-WC comparison only muddys the waters.

Just some thoughts on a Monday morning at work

[Sean66]

Well, I'm not trying to compare dancers and wing chuners, really.
But there has been so much work done in the field of dance with regards to movement analysis....I feel that this work could help us in better understanding exactly what we mean when we talk about things like "structure" in the martial arts.

The tools developed by Laban and subsequent generations of movement analysts and dance teachers can help us to define a common language for talking about movement and, most importantly, can help give us a certain rigor in our analysis. This, I believe, can help us to "fine tune" our work as martial artists.

It's from a purely pedagogical perspective. If we better understand movement...and if we develop a common way of talking about movement...we can be more effective in our teaching. Make the attainment of "good structure", for example, more accessible to people.

I guess also I have my own bias because I was a professional ballet dancer for almost 20 years LOL!

[CFT]

Great thread so far. Sean, I'm really enjoying your posts on this and I hope we can continue getting more input from your dancer friends. I'm sure there is more in common between TCMA practices and 'modern' thoughts about movement than Hendrik likes to admit. Just that the modern stuff is more accessible to the layman. The analysis by your dancer friends was top notch and not at all lost in jargon, which is what a lot of modern and traditional material can be guilty of.

[Vajramusti]

I for one appreciate Sean's varied interest in structure and motion. I am not a dancer but am interested in analysis of comparative motion. Sean is an ex ballet dancer. I have touched a couple of solo ballet dancers -they seem to lose their balance when pushed even gently. However an ex lady friend of mine was once a great ballet dancer-of dual Aussie/US Citizenship- taught ballet after a car crash in Monaco messed up an ankle. We talked some about the stability and balance needed
for a dancer hoisting a partner up. But I am unsure about sufficient parallels with wing chun structure. I also had a student who made a living with his wife by dancing duet on Ocean cruise shows... but he was hopeless in wing chun. Another ballet dancer I knew developed back problems..as a bank cashier she often rested one foot on a low stool for relief.
OTOH... Indian classical dancing has lots of strong and stable martial poses- done with coordination and flow.
Also, Chinese opera provided good structural training as well.
Anecdotal but interesting FWIW

Joy Chaudhuri

[Sean66]

I have touched a couple of solo ballet dancers -they seem to lose their balance when pushed even gently.

Thanks for the anecdote, Joy, that's a good one. But try that on a modern dancer and you might get very different results!

Ballet has very different movement principals than wing chun and martial arts in general. In ballet there is:
1) a conscious exaggeration of three-dimensionality through the use of the frontal, sagital and transverse planes (volume is given to the body by the use of épaulement in relation to these planes)
2) an exaggerated "dialog" with gravity. The dancer is continually trying to defy it, to create the illusion of freedom
3) movement is "projected" by creating lines that go beyond the kinesphere (as in arabesque, for example)
4) movement takes place in regard to a fixed reference point (the audience)
5) exaggeration of opening (the "turned out" position)to facilitate range of motion on the frontal plane...

There are probably a few more that I'm forgetting. But it's easy to see that the principals are quite different than what we use in martial arts. Which is of course no surprise: The intention is totally different.

[Hendrik]

Sean,
Great to know your back ground, Where do you live? could you share a little on your wing chun journey?

Thanks

[Hendrik]

Great thread so far. Sean, I'm really enjoying your posts on this and I hope we can continue getting more input from your dancer friends. I'm sure there is more in common between TCMA practices and 'modern' thoughts about movement than Hendrik likes to admit. Just that the modern stuff is more accessible to the layman. The analysis by your dancer friends was top notch and not at all lost in jargon, which is what a lot of modern and traditional material can be guilty of.



I have no problem with "modern". The issue I face is people trying to compress color into black and white; and call that modern or scientific.




Face it, for me, if one dig into these stuffs and really wants to describe it

there are

physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, and momentum layer sitting on the awareness layer. which is sitting in a 4 or more Dimensional space.

There are Frame and Flow, by which Flow is an integration of Frame

There are Abstract which is the dynamic structure and concrete with is static frame.



Wing Chun Kuen Kuit has very clearly describe the dynamic structure as in Abstract Algebra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_algebra


It says clearly

Come accept, Goes return, let go move forward, using Silence to lead action.

it is a description in an abstract form and not limited by static frame form.




and it gets into trouble when one tries to compress all these 65000 color into black and white or just physical mechanics. cant be done because you lost the color you lost the soul.



As Sean's friends describe the multi-dimensional and concurrent motions with their proffessional mind's eyes, one can see, the mind/thought cannot control this type of stuffs simultaneously. mind/thinking is just too slow..... So it is obviously not just mechanics and the thinking mind control mechanics, that is much more then that.




So, stand in a stance, hold a triangle, trying ot keep that triangle, hold to the root, hold to a certain geometric shape.... those are Frame or static frame.

This is static frame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAzUEEKupU






This is a movie which tries to fit the whole world into a static frame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHIoKU-6d_M&feature=related






This is real world with dynamic structure not trying to fit into any type of static frame

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5-kiBR6v5U&feature=player_embedded#at=188

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Z8OlxazPM



life is not a movie, one cant fit the whole universal into a frame. living beings also not just live in a world of thinking mind and mechanics. there are much more then that.

The problem with WCK is people keep thinking the Frame is the structure and it gorven the world. Well, sure if you fight a person who knows nothing you can surpress him into your frame. but what happen when you fight some one in mmA?

another question needs to ask by the WCner also is that is that general frame the Frame of WCK? look at the Chan Wah WCK, the YKS WCK, the KooLO WCK, the Ip Man WCK.... So what is it? For me those are just frame. and the Abstract above is the core. For that Abstract is in the same level as the CXW or XingYi or ..... ect.

[Hendrik]

I for one appreciate Sean's varied interest in structure and motion. I am not a dancer but am interested in analysis of comparative motion. Sean is an ex ballet dancer. I have touched a couple of solo ballet dancers -they seem to lose their balance when pushed even gently. However an ex lady friend of mine was once a great ballet dancer-of dual Aussie/US Citizenship- taught ballet after a car crash in Monaco messed up an ankle. We talked some about the stability and balance needed
for a dancer hoisting a partner up. But I am unsure about sufficient parallels with wing chun structure. I also had a student who made a living with his wife by dancing duet on Ocean cruise shows... but he was hopeless in wing chun. Another ballet dancer I knew developed back problems..as a bank cashier she often rested one foot on a low stool for relief.
OTOH... Indian classical dancing has lots of strong and stable martial poses- done with coordination and flow.
Also, Chinese opera provided good structural training as well.
Anecdotal but interesting FWIW

Joy Chaudhuri



Dancer and TCMA practioner are doing different things so one must not expect they are the same.


TCMA practioner needs to handle the momentum layer very different then the dancer.

however, since both has to "swim" in the multi-dimensional space, this part is common.


Using Dancer's language to describe is better then the "thinking-mind master + controlled mechanics -shape static frame " language. it will capture much more.


Every aids to make things clear is a good aids. I have never against any of the aids.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the anecdote, Joy, that's a good one. But try that on a modern dancer and you might get very different results!

Ballet has very different movement principals than wing chun and martial arts in general. In ballet there is:
1) a conscious exaggeration of three-dimensionality through the use of the frontal, sagital and transverse planes (volume is given to the body by the use of épaulement in relation to these planes)
2) an exaggerated "dialog" with gravity. The dancer is continually trying to defy it, to create the illusion of freedom
3) movement is "projected" by creating lines that go beyond the kinesphere (as in arabesque, for example)
4) movement takes place in regard to a fixed reference point (the audience)
5) exaggeration of opening (the "turned out" position)to facilitate range of motion on the frontal plane...

There are probably a few more that I'm forgetting. But it's easy to see that the principals are quite different than what we use in martial arts. Which is of course no surprise: The intention is totally different.



I personally model these stuffs into


physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, and momentum layer sitting on the awareness layer. which is sitting in a 4 or more Dimensional space.

and get good result on synthesis.


it needs to be so many layers because one is living in a multi-dimentional co existing world.


I believe Dancer knows these layer and layers they might name them differently and use them differently; but they have to know because the express their life force-inspration-creativity-intention there. If I know you are a dancer in the begining, I would communicate with you differently.

[Sean66]

Hendrik,

First, here is a quick analysis of the Chen Xiaowang video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl8m...eature=related

Although he doesn't do much in the video, here is what my good old dancer friend found (again, this is after watching the clip one time. Someone who knows nothing about martial arts or Chen Taijiquan):

1) Vertical axis is always present and always stays between the legs, even when working with different parts of the body
2) Center of gravity is low and the connection with the ground evident through a sense of weight in the pelvis.
3) Energy flows from the center toward the extremeties
4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"
6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly
8) Movement round and spiraled, not as linear as in the other (xing yi) clip

My friend said she could give an exhaustive analysis if she had the time to really apply things like the structural model and effort theory (methods of movement analysis), but alas, she's busy writing her masters thesis....can't bug her too much!

As far as my own background, I started out in martial arts before I began dancing. Eight years of Tae Kwon Do. While I was dancing I started learning Liu He Men from Liang Chao Qun and Yang and Wu-Hao Taiji from Yang Zhen He.

I've been learning Ving Tsun from Michael Kurth for the last eight years or so. Micahel was a student of Philipp's for around 19 years, before they had a falling out due to personal differences. In any event, both Michael and Philipp really opened my eyes with their clear, logical explanations of the system...and of course their amazing skill levels.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

First, here is a quick analysis of the Chen Xiaowang video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl8m...eature=related

Although he doesn't do much in the video, here is what my good old dancer friend found (again, this is after watching the clip one time. Someone who knows nothing about martial arts or Chen Taijiquan):

1) Vertical axis is always present and always stays between the legs, even when working with different parts of the body
2) Center of gravity is low and the connection with the ground evident through a sense of weight in the pelvis.
3) Energy flows from the center toward the extremeties
4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"
6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly
8) Movement round and spiraled, not as linear as in the other (xing yi) clip

My friend said she could give an exhaustive analysis if she had the time to really apply things like the structural model and effort theory (methods of movement analysis), but alas, she's busy writing her masters thesis....can't bug her too much!

As far as my own background, I started out in martial arts before began dancing. Eight years of tae kwon do. While I was dancing I started learning Liu He Men from Liang Chao Qun and Yang and Wu-Hao Taiji from Yang Zhen He.

I've been learning Ving Tsun from Michael Kurth for the last eight years or so. Micahel was a student of Philipp's for around 19 years, before they had a falling out due to personal differences. In any event, both Michael and Philipp really opened my eyes with their clear, logical explanations of the system...and of course their amazing skill levels.



Sean,
Thanks for your sharing.
Thanks and greatly appreciated! Please also thanking your friend.
We need people who is at the level of your friend to clear these things up. I used to work with friends in PE department doing research back when I was in Iowa State Univ 1980's. So the quality of work to really means something has to be in the same level of your friend.

Where do you located?



The following are keys

4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"

6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly


of all TCMA dynamics structure. Without these the motion has no soul in it.



like the dancer, the same movement in a different day, will be expressed in a different way by inspration. but the soul has to be there and one must know how to call the soul back to serve one. and thus, those layers an layers are needed because each layer calling means something and has micro-movements control.

i sure sound wild and even unreasonable. however, to have a good fine quality handling, every detail is important. thus, i always question on so how do one does the wck short power ? that is related to item 6 above. it is not a demo like those inch punch demo it is real. and train eyes will see it as your friend does.

and if one is holding on those triangle....center line, they will miss item 7 above. so, facing the real deal guy, one is really hopeless.


the question now is, so how can one attain the kung fu of 4,5,6,7 in the wingchun way.

[GlennR]

Well, I'm not trying to compare dancers and wing chuners, really.
But there has been so much work done in the field of dance with regards to movement analysis....I feel that this work could help us in better understanding exactly what we mean when we talk about things like "structure" in the martial arts.

The tools developed by Laban and subsequent generations of movement analysts and dance teachers can help us to define a common language for talking about movement and, most importantly, can help give us a certain rigor in our analysis. This, I believe, can help us to "fine tune" our work as martial artists.

It's from a purely pedagogical perspective. If we better understand movement...and if we develop a common way of talking about movement...we can be more effective in our teaching. Make the attainment of "good structure", for example, more accessible to people.

I guess also I have my own bias because I was a professional ballet dancer for almost 20 years LOL!

Thanks Sean....... i have no idea about dancing (i have the rythm of a rusty can) but its the pedagogical side im interested in.... how to get the message over clearly and scientifically with no esoteric nonsense.

[GlennR]

First, here is a quick analysis of the Chen Xiaowang video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl8m...eature=related

Although he doesn't do much in the video, here is what my good old dancer friend found (again, this is after watching the clip one time. Someone who knows nothing about martial arts or Chen Taijiquan):

1) Vertical axis is always present and always stays between the legs, even when working with different parts of the body
2) Center of gravity is low and the connection with the ground evident through a sense of weight in the pelvis.
3) Energy flows from the center toward the extremeties
4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"
6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly
8) Movement round and spiraled, not as linear as in the other (xing yi) clip





So im showing one of the guys at MT how to shift from a right cross into a right elbow last night and he's struggling. Keeps leaning over to far to reach the target with his elbow and is breaking his structure.
So i get him to watch one of the senior guys doing the same drill and we pick it apart together to highlight what he does right...... and we basically came up with all of your points above.
I guess what im saying is, that ultimately, there is one way to move effectively in a MA perspective and that every style gets to the same conclusion eventually

Nice analysis

[GlennR]

The following are keys

4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"

6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly


the question now is, so how can one attain the kung fu of 4,5,6,7 in the wingchun way


Learn the forms, stance, footwork and spar..... a lot

There is no other way

[Sean66]

and if one is holding on those triangle....center line, they will miss item 7 above. so, facing the real deal guy, one is really hopeless.

Your right, "holding on" to the idea of a triangle, or imprisoning the body in a locked position can only arrest movement. And it misses the whole point, in my opinion.

The triangle in wing chun involves lines of movement and not a static position. Together with the ideas of facing and the center line it represents at the same time a very distinct movement principle and a strategic concept.


the question now is, so how can one attain the kung fu of 4,5,6,7 in the wingchun way.

That's a good question, and I think wing chun has some great training methods to develop these qualities.

Take #5 and #6 for example: changes of energy are rapid, the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements" and movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively.

If your hitting the wall bag correctly, paying attention to having the wrist and fingers completely relaxed just before impact and immediately after impact you are practicing a very rapid change between tension and release.

Moreover, if you concentrate on the correct positioning of the elbow, and the line of force between your contact with the ground, your hips and pelvis and your elbow, then you'll also be giving your body the chance to make those micromovements in order to deal with the forces involved.

The same goes for the wooden dummy work. I remember Philipp stressing the fact that there should be (in all accept one instance) a moment of "relachement" avter each action on the dummy, a moment where contact with the dummy is broken. This not only gives your body the opportunity to train rapid energy change, but also teacher you not to "glue" onto or "chase" the hands/actions of an adversary. Giving you added flexibility in changing according to the dynamics of the situation.

The whole point of all this analysis, of course, is that the clearer we are about the guiding principles of movement behind wing chun (on a physical level, intentional level, strategic level, etc.) the more precise we can be in teaching and in honing our own skills.


physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, and momentum layer sitting on the awareness layer. which is sitting in a 4 or more Dimensional space.

This is interesting, Hendrik. Here's some food for thought for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_Movement_Analysis

I see some definite similarities.

Oh, by the way I've been living in Lille, France for the last four three years. Before that 15 years in Germany. Before that dusty Albuquerque, New Mexico!

[Vajramusti]

1) Vertical axis is always present and always stays between the legs, even when working with different parts of the body
2) Center of gravity is low and the connection with the ground evident through a sense of weight in the pelvis.
3) Energy flows from the center toward the extremeties
4) The movement stays in the kinesphere, no projection of movement outside this space
5) Changes of energy are rapid and the body re-adapts, re-groups through "micromovements"
6) Movement alternates between tension and release very rapidly, explosively
7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly
8) Movement round and spiraled, not as linear as in the other (xing yi) cli
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sean- that is good analysis of CXW's clip by your friend. I agree as as a MA person.
One needs good guidance to get to CXW's stage- he has been doinh taiji for ages
and he comes from the heart of the Chen tradition.

joy chaudhuri

[Sean66]

Learn the forms, stance, footwork and spar..... a lot

There is no other way

Stance = dynamic alignment of the body

Forms/Footwork = putting that dynamic alignment into movement, guided by specific movement principles and strategic principles (that may vary a bit with style)

Sparring = putting dynamic alignment and movement under "preassure" from outside

Your right, it's all there!!

[k gledhill]

Stance = dynamic alignment of the body

Forms/Footwork = putting that dynamic alignment into movement, guided by specific movement principles and strategic principles (that may vary a bit with style)

Sparring = putting dynamic alignment and movement under "preassure" from outside

Your right, it's all there!!

the final 'test'

[anerlich]

While not wishing to discount anyone's skills, interests, or experiences, my own experience indicates to me that skill in one discipline applies and translates to others a lot less than most people hope or expect.

I was a competitive gymnast in high school and university - good balance, coordination, strength. But I don't feel that background really helped me learn WC any faster, nor that my practice of gymnastics or WC really helped that much when I started BJJ. Any general "skills" I had ceased to be of much relevance or advantage after about blue belt level.

In some ways, I think that experience in other movement-related arts can be a hindrance. relating a new movement you are learning to ones you have learned previously isn't always appropriate or helpful.

[GlennR]

Stance = dynamic alignment of the body

Forms/Footwork = putting that dynamic alignment into movement, guided by specific movement principles and strategic principles (that may vary a bit with style)

Sparring = putting dynamic alignment and movement under "preassure" from outside

Your right, it's all there!!

Yes, i think so.

But the trick is that when youre sparring and have a consistent fail in an area (such as i mentioned with the guy last night) its about having the understanding to break it down and solve the issue at a base level.

Its problem solving, simple as that, all you need is the knowledge to fix it ;0

[GlennR]

But I don't feel that background really helped me learn WC any faster, nor that my practice of gymnastics or WC really helped that much when I started BJJ. Any general "skills" I had ceased to be of much relevance or advantage after about blue belt level.

In some ways, I think that experience in other movement-related arts can be a hindrance. relating a new movement you are learning to ones you have learned previously isn't always appropriate or helpful



Bang on Andrew.
When i started MT i adpated pretty quick ,at a base level, ie i could hit kick and move pretty well, but, ultimately it was the subtle differences between MT and WC that held me back.... particularly the YGKM and my tendency to base my movement about it.

Ive now "lost" it i think, and my MT has gone up a level, but my WC has gone backwards i think.
So my thinking would be that my WC training actually held me back in the long run in regards to MT

Good conversation gents.......

[Vajramusti]

While not wishing to discount anyone's skills, interests, or experiences, my own experience indicates to me that skill in one discipline applies and translates to others a lot less than most people hope or expect.

I was a competitive gymnast in high school and university - good balance, coordination, strength. But I don't feel that background really helped me learn WC any faster, nor that my practice of gymnastics or WC really helped that much when I started BJJ. Any general "skills" I had ceased to be of much relevance or advantage after about blue belt level.

In some ways, I think that experience in other movement-related arts can be a hindrance. relating a new movement you are learning to ones you have learned previously isn't always appropriate or helpful.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A kinesthiologist and friend at Arizona State University would agree with Anerlich.
Hence my disagreement with Hendrik on "general principles". of martial structure.
My friend was quoted in the New York Times a couple of years ago. Even though one has to face natural forces - such as gravity- how you get there can vary. The devil in the details.
Arguably the greatest basketball player ever could not really transfer his skills in playing with a baseball or golf ball.// though he tried.
What CXW shows is the Chen Taiji approach to some fundamental challenges in dealing with motion.
A wing chun person doing taiji can still look like a wing chun person doing taiji and vice versa.IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

PS. Note below: A follow up..(source= nyt- Home

Archive for 2008
Human Identity’s Brain Drain)

There’s a reason it’s hard to excel in three sports at once, physiologists say. The training necessary to do your best in one sport is likely to counteract what is needed to be good at another.

When you are training, said Gary Krahenbuhl, an exercise physiologist and emeritus professor at Arizona State University, improvement depends on physical and biochemical changes in muscle cells and in nerve-firing patterns. And those changes are very sport-specific, he added. The result, Dr. Krahenbuhl said, is that “changes that facilitate performance for one event may actually undermine performance in another event.

“To think that you could train in such a way as to have your greatest performance in all the sports is impossible,” he added.

Even body musculature can trip up triathletes. Swimmers need large muscles in their backs and shoulders. Runners and cyclists want small, light upper bodies. Cyclists need large quadriceps muscles. Runners don’t, and in fact they don’t want any extra muscle weight on their legs.




There’s a reason it’s hard to excel in three sports at once, physiologists say. The training necessary to do your best in one sport is likely to counteract what is needed to be good at another.

When you are training, said Gary Krahenbuhl, an exercise physiologist and emeritus professor at Arizona State University, improvement depends on physical and biochemical changes in muscle cells and in nerve-firing patterns. And those changes are very sport-specific, he added. The result, Dr. Krahenbuhl said, is that “changes that facilitate performance for one event may actually undermine performance in another event.

“To think that you could train in such a way as to have your greatest performance in all the sports is impossible,” he added.

Even body musculature can trip up triathletes. Swimmers need large muscles in their backs and shoulders. Runners and cyclists want small, light upper bodies. Cyclists need large quadriceps muscles. Runners don’t, and in fact they don’t want any extra muscle weight on their legs.

[Hendrik]

This is interesting, Hendrik. Here's some food for thought for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_Movement_Analysis

I see some definite similarities.

Oh, by the way I've been living in Lille, France for the last four three years. Before that 15 years in Germany. Before that dusty Albuquerque, New Mexico!


Thanks!

It is interesting to see Laban analysis.

[Hendrik]

Stance = dynamic alignment of the body

Forms/Footwork = putting that dynamic alignment into movement, guided by specific movement principles and strategic principles (that may vary a bit with style)

Sparring = putting dynamic alignment and movement under "preassure" from outside

Your right, it's all there!!


for WCK, Chen Taiji, Xing Yi to get those CXW high quality type of dynamic structure.
it cant be done as what you post only because there are still missing core and direction which make it distinctively different.


Thus, in general WCner cant do what the Chen and Xing Yi do. and thus the Short power of WCK has mostly lost.




TCMA has diffirent core type which will determine what kind of kung fu one will develop.

Even the Taiji or Xing Yi people if they dont know the key they will not be able to develop the kung fu.

For example, look at the following two Xing Yi sifus, they actually doesnt have the capability of the previous one. They are using the general core type as ordinary people. Thus, by definition, these two are not Xing Yi kung fu, they are practicing Xing Yi form but not doing Xing Yi Kung fu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8yCwikaU4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOl6zpaxK8



So there are keys which determine whether it is internal TCMA or not. For experience eyes it is very clear, and also the training is heaven and earth different. it is a solid deal, if one uses the layers model or equivalent model as I mention, one will see.


So, in the internal TCMA case, if one cannot clearly tell what is the Keys handling points in the clips and doing it, one really doesnt know Internal TCMA. one sure can uses the Laban... or any model to describe it. Because it is about do one know and there is no myterious or believe related at all. one might not be able to do it as well as CXW but one can do it.

[GlennR]

for WCK, Chen Taiji, Xing Yi to get those CXW high quality type of dynamic structure.
it cant be done as what you post only because there are still missing core and direction which make it distinctively different.

So can you show me a WC stylist that has this "missing core"



Thus, in general WCner cant do what the Chen and Xing Yi do. and thus the Short power of WCK has mostly lost.


Can you show me the short power of Chen and Xing Yi

[Hendrik]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A kinesthiologist and friend at Arizona State University would agree with Anerlich.
Hence my disagreement with Hendrik on "general principles". of martial structure.
My friend was quoted in the New York Times a couple of years ago. Even though one has to face natural forces - such as gravity- how you get there can vary. The devil in the details.
Arguably the greatest basketball player ever could not really transfer his skills in playing with a baseball or golf ball.// though he tried.
What CXW shows is the Chen Taiji approach to some fundamental challenges in dealing with motion.
A wing chun person doing taiji can still look like a wing chun person doing taiji and vice versa.IMO.

joy chaudhuri




There are only 4 types of basic momentum source, CXW uses them all with design in Chen way. the Xing Yi guy also uses them all in Xing Yi way.


I am not talking Chen's way, Xing Yi's approach or frame...etc. because every style has they approach.

I am talking do WCK make uses of the 4 basic types?

[Hendrik]

So can you show me a WC stylist that has this "missing core"




Can you show me the short power of Chen and Xing Yi


I am not here to promote or demote anyone since it is a technical discussion.

Historically, if one read Leong Jan's record or Yik Kam record on how their fast jin are described, one knows that is not the same with today's WCK.


as, the short power of Chen and Xing Yi, read Sean's friends analysis with the clips, there are in there.

[GlennR]

I am not here to promote or demote anyone since it is a technical discussion.

as, the short power of Chen and Xing Yi, read Sean's friends analysis with the clips, there are in there.

Id suggest saying...........

"Thus, in general WCner cant do what the Chen and Xing Yi do. and thus the Short power of WCK has mostly lost."

.... is demoting WC in general

So do keep it technical and point us to a WCer that has what you say is lost

[Vajramusti]

There are only 4 types of basic momentum source, CXW uses them all with design in Chen way. the Xing Yi guy also uses them all in Xing Yi way.


I am not talking Chen's way, Xing Yi's approach or frame...etc. because every style has they approach.

I am talking do WCK make uses of the 4 basic types?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ships passing at sea.

joy

[Hendrik]

Id suggest saying...........

"Thus, in general WCner cant do what the Chen and Xing Yi do. and thus the Short power of WCK has mostly lost."

.... is demoting WC in general

So do keep it technical and point us to a WCer that has what you say is lost



Historically,

The matter of fact is WCK in 1850 is famous on its sickle type of Short power. which is cutting both side like a spinning boomerang.



This type of power as

as in KooLo, it was said Leong Jan's short power is called Chuk Geng or fast accerated power , it needs Neigong or internal cultivation to do it.


as in Cho family, it was said Yik Kam's short power is done with
contract, release, vibrate, and oscillate. it also needs Neigong to do it.




In general WCK today,
who does it as Leong Jan and Yik Kam?
spinining boomerang, fast accerelate, vibrate?

CXW and the Xing Yi guy has those in their clips.

[anerlich]

PS. Note below: A follow up..(source= nyt- Home

Archive for 2008
Human Identity’s Brain Drain)

There’s a reason it’s hard to excel in three sports at once, physiologists say. The training necessary to do your best in one sport is likely to counteract what is needed to be good at another.

<snip>


Good stuff, Joy.


Starry starry night again? Time to go walkabout!!

Just as long as he doesn't snip off an ear.

[Sean66]

Joy and anerlich,

I think, respectfully, that you guys might be missing the point I was trying to make.

I have never suggested that experience in one discipline translates into learning another one easily, or more quickly. Sometimes that might be true, as in the case of ballet dancers making the transition to modern or contemporary dance (the inverse doesn't seem to be true), but not always. In any event, this is not at all what I'm talking about.

The point I was trying to make is that research done (largely by dancers) in the field of human movement analysis (all movement, not just dance) can help us in developing a common language for talking about movement (like, for example, what exactly we mean by structure) in the martial arts. This can give us added clarity to our teaching, and may even suggest new pedagogical methods.

Hendrik,

Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by "core" and "core type" and the "four types of momentum force"? I think this is another good example of the difficulty in talking about these things. Without a common language we will always be trading our subjective impressions...and may not understand each other.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by "core" and "core type" and the "four types of momentum force"? I think this is another good example of the difficulty in talking about these things. Without a common language we will always be trading our subjective impressions...and may not understand each other.


Instead of the general

Thinking mind master and mechanics slaves model as most uses.

TCMA is much diversity that the above model can capture.




1, core type

there are lots of different core types in TCMA.

for example you got irish tap dancing and ballet....etc all of these are dance but they have different core type.

In TCMA,
Some type is continouos tensing dominate type. Some type is wide dynamic range dominate. type

So, if an art is wide dynamic range physical dominate type it's foundation is train very differently then the continous tensing physical donminate type.

Thus, the dynamic structure of both art will be different.



For example

Let's compare hand bridge



look at the Hung gar type of hand bridge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72AgNMkeLw&playnext=1&list=PL46A62F76A589625D





look at the WCK hand bridge .
3.36 ---->3.58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q



look at the Emei snake type of hand bridge which is the mother art of WCK as above.

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=897899701




Now, these two different type of hand bridge core in two different concept. the hung gar is a continous tensing type. the WCK or Emei is a wide dynamic range type.


Then to support these two different types of hand bridge, the body is train different way.


Thus, the Hung Gar Iron Wire set training cannot be the same with how WCK train its SLT or BJ set training.

They belongs to a different core type from the very beginning.







Due to the different core type, a different dynamic structure surface.

Thus, the Chen Taiji will never has a dynamic structure as a Hung Gar ....

however, since both Xing Yi and Chen Taiji and WCK are wide dynamic range type, they will share a certain characterics in their dynamic structure.

and even with the same wide dynamic range type the dynamic structure of different art such as Chen Taiji and XingYi are still different as you friend put it clearly in details.




2, there are only a few basic momentum source on how human tap into to make momentum. Muscle is just one of the basic source.


and depend on the core type ---> different dynamic structure --> the combination basic momentum source are different,




There are lots and lots of signature one could see and study. As I mention before, we need people like your friend in dancing to have intellecture classification and study and modeling. otherwise, we are going blind but argue ego all the time.


only when one is clear on major keys one could synthesis the dynamic structure otherwise it will be off. in the ancient china teh major keys are given only to the enter the door student not general public.


These actually are very interesting topic and some one could get a PHD for these research. there are lots of information could be researched.


Some one had contacted me in Europe on writting his thesis in SLT , but since I dont feel they want to do a pure study to find out what is it. I didnt join.


also, WCK has evolve. in general people might practice the set but not following it. such as in some case, eventhough they still practice the three sets, but their fighting application is mostly core with western boxing.

So, it is difficult to say who is actually practice WCK these days because WCK has evolved into a large variation. However, the set is still there and one still can look into the set and find out what it is. again, with the train eyes and knowledge as your friend that is not a difficult task to find out.

[Hendrik]

so, where is the Qi layer surface?

Simple, a Wide dynamic range art is working to keep lowering the back ground level to attain a high dynamic range. when the back ground level of physical, mind, breathing lower below a certain thresthold the Qi layer will surface.


Qi layer will surface and Qi flow effect is directional. in another word leading Qi in a different direction even with the same path produce different effect.


also,

As my response to the post in the other thread on power devolopment with pole. using the terminology above is:

how can you practice wide range dynamic art in one way but you are using continous tensing physical art to do your YJKYM and pole aids power training?

So, what are you develop?


and most of use dont like to hear these. for me, we need to be clear on these

[WC1277]

so, where is the Qi layer surface?

Simple, a Wide dynamic range art is working to keep lowering the back ground level to attain a high dynamic range. when the back ground level of physical, mind, breathing lower below a certain thresthold the Qi layer will surface.


Qi layer will surface and Qi flow effect is directional. in another word leading Qi in a different direction even with the same path produce different effect.


also,

As my response to the post in the other thread on power devolopment with pole. using the terminology above is:

how can you practice wide range dynamic art in one way but you are using continous tensing physical art to do your YJKYM and pole aids power training?

So, what are you develop?


and most of use dont like to hear these. for me, we need to be clear on these


Hendrik, who did you learn wing chun under?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, who did you learn wing chun under?


I have learn Wing Chun from a few different sifus.

[WC1277]

I have learn Wing Chun from a few different sifus.

Who did you complete the system under?

[Hendrik]

Who did you complete the system under?


Complete WC system? That is impossible.

[GlennR]

Complete WC system? That is impossible.



Youre hilarious.... happy to sit there in your ivory tower telling everyone about the shortcomings of WC today (unless its your version), how its all comes from emei and that you have a "trained eye".

Yet you cant answer a simple question about your training and cant help yourself (once again) by having a cheap shot at the person asking the question with "its impossible" to complete a system.

To be honest, if what you offfer is a reflection of past WC training and outcomes, im happy to see it go the way of the dinosaurs

[WC1277]

Complete WC system? That is impossible.

You know what I mean Hendrik. Come on, let's have it...?

[Hendrik]

Youre hilarious.... happy to sit there in your ivory tower telling everyone about the shortcomings of WC today (unless its your version), how its all comes from emei and that you have a "trained eye".



You dont have to believe it, just get those real scholar in the graduate school such as Sean's friends to analyze them. and see what they see. they have a professional trained eye.







Yet you cant answer a simple question about your training and cant help yourself (once again) by having a cheap shot at the person asking the question with "its impossible" to complete a system.


tell me who has a complete WCK system today.

There is no rule in forum that I have to answer any personal question.






To be honest, if what you offfer is a reflection of past WC training and outcomes,

im happy to see it go the way of the dinosaurs



Get a dance or PE expert like Sean's friend and let them do analysis and tell their finding. that is my offer.

[Hendrik]

You know what I mean Hendrik. Come on, let's have it...?


1, I would not claim I learn a complete WCK system even thought I learn the core of WCK.

2, I am a 5th generation Cho family WCner count from Red boat's Yik Kam lineage.
4 generation preceed me were all bounded closed Cho family direct martial art decendent. my ancestor Cho Soon was a Red boat opera actor, my sifu Cho Hong-Choy is a decendent of Cho family. I inherit the documents and sets of Yik Kam lineage WCK core from the Red boat era.


Now, can we get back to the technical discussion?

[WC1277]

1, I would not claim I learn a complete WCK system even thought I learn the core of WCK.

2, I am a 5th generation Cho family WCner count from Red boat's Yik Kam lineage.
4 generation preceed me were all bounded Cho family direct decendent. my ancestor Cho Soon was a Red boat opera actor, my sifu Cho Hong-Choy is a decendent of Cho family.


Now, can we get back to the technical discussion?

Yeah, if you begin to recognize that the majority of the people you converse with don't come from your lineage

[Hendrik]

Yeah, if you begin to recognize that the majority of the people you converse with don't come from your lineage


In my view,

it got nothing to do with lineages, when it comes to technical.

Sean's friend the dancing expert doesnt even have to do WCK or Taiji or Xingyi to be able to tell what is what via motion analysis in his/her trained eyes.



Not to mention I also learn Ip Man WCK and Chusauli WCK from sifu Robert Chu who is a student of Hawkin. I also learn about Sung Num WCK from sifu Rene who is a direct grand student and visited Sung Num many times, I also learn about Kolo from sifu Jim Roselandor who is the direct line from Kulo village Fung Chun.
So, WCK technical got nothing to do with lineage, rank, title....etc.



Get a dance major in the level of Sean's friend and let them tell what is it. That is the way.


an irish tap dancing cannot be a ballet. calling an irish tap dancing practice in ballet school as ballet is ignorance. train in Irish tap dancing will not make one to become an expert ballet dancer. this also applied to WCK learning.

[YouKnowWho]

Get a dance major in the level of Sean's friend and let them tell what is it. That is the way.

Dancers are "solo' performers to please audience. TCMA guys are fighters to kill "enemies". TCMA is not "solo" training.

[Hendrik]

Dancers are "solo' performers to please audience. TCMA guys are fighters to kill "enemies". TCMA is not "solo" training.


you missed the point totally.

Dancer who do research in the university has all the tools to analyze motions which is extremely helpfull aids.

They know about space, timing, motion in an expert lever way involve human body and law of physics.



That is an important way to find out what is the art and how effective the art one learn to be.

It is no longer an old Chinese way where brute force and "believe me" it works. It is a new era of analysis, synthesis.

[YouKnowWho]

It's pretty sad to compare TCMA with dancer. No wonder our MMA friends look down on TCMA. :(

My daughter is a much better dancer than me (I was a folk dance instructor). But I don't think that I want to get "structure" opinion from her.

http://natashawang.com

[WC1277]

In my view,

it got nothing to do with lineages, when it comes to technical.

Sean's friend the dancing expert doesnt even have to do WCK or Taiji or Xingyi to be able to tell what is what via motion analysis in his/her trained eyes.



Not to mention I also learn Ip Man WCK and Chusauli WCK from sifu Robert Chu who is a student of Hawkin. I also learn about Sung Num WCK from sifu Rene who is a direct grand student and visited Sung Num many times, I also learn about Kolo from sifu Jim Roselandor who is the direct line from Kulo village Fung Chun.
So, WCK technical got nothing to do with lineage, rank, title....etc.



Get a dance major in the level of Sean's friend and let them tell what is it. That is the way.


an irish tap dancing cannot be a ballet. calling an irish tap dancing practice in ballet school as ballet is ignorance. train in Irish tap dancing will not make one to become an expert ballet dancer. this also applied to WCK learning.

Well I just finished watching any videos I could find of Cho family. One question. How does the concept of the center line fit into your theory?

[Hendrik]

It's pretty sad to compare TCMA with dancer. No wonder our MMA friends look down on TCMA. :(


Who says compare TCMA with dancer? it is using the modern tools to pin point what is going on.




For example

if you think you can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAzUEEKupU


or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72AgNMkeLw&playnext=1&list=PL46A62F76A589625D



and

some how by some magic

get to this type of full scale power / momentum handling


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl8mg4Pg6o&feature=related


you are out of your mind.



if you have a dancer friend like Sean's friend, She/he will tell you by the characteristics of the above three clips, what is the possibility. and save you 10000 years of off target expectation.

[YouKnowWho]

if you think you can do this ...

To beat up the "thin air" doesn't mean anything. TCMA is not "solo" training. You can't fight against yourself.

[WC1277]

I'll ask again,

Where does the center line fit in Hendrik in all of your posts this thread or not?

[Hendrik]

Well I just finished watching any videos I could find of Cho family. One question. How does the concept of the center line fit into your theory?


I cannot speak for Cho family because there are different evolution and lineages now.

if you want to ask this question I suggest you open a new thread.

My center line concept is similar to sifu Robert Chu of Chusaoli WCK and Sifu Jim Rosalando of Koo Lo.

however, i am using a different type of power/momentum generation and dynamic structure.

[Hendrik]

To beat up the "thin air" doesn't mean anything. TCMA is not "solo" training. You can't fight against yourself.



if one cant even know what type of vehicle one drive, forget about the rest of travelling.

[YouKnowWho]

if one cant even know what type of vehicle one drive, forget about the rest of travelling.

I only care about how "my opponent" feels what kind of vehicle that I'm driving.

[Hendrik]

I only care about how "my opponent" feels what kind of vehicle that I'm driving.


if I fight you, I dont wrest with you. my dancer friend told me that because she knows my vehicle well. hahaha

[GlennR]

You dont have to believe it, just get those real scholar in the graduate school such as Sean's friends to analyze them. and see what they see. they have a professional trained eye.


Rubbish, they know about dancing..... dancing, not fighting.
Again for your benefit............ dancing

I respect the dancers discipline and traing regime but i hardly think they can tell me how to throw a punch.
You clutch at straws to give your argument credability......... again




tell me who has a complete WCK system today.

TST and William Cheung in their respective systems


There is no rule in forum that I have to answer any personal question.


Fine, then dont make out that your personal opinion on WC (history, power generation etc) is fact and that you have a "trained eye" whuch should be regarded by everyone



Get a dance or PE expert like Sean's friend and let them do analysis and tell their finding. that is my offer

And my offfer is to find anyone that can substantiate your claims, particularly from a combat perpective

[YouKnowWho]

A. What's your opinion on ...
B: My opinion on ... is similar to sifu ABC and sifu XYZ.
A: What's sifu ABC and sifu XYZ's opiniojn on ...
B: Their opinion on ... is similiar to mine. What's your opinion on ...?
A: I thought I was the person who asked the question. :confused:

[anerlich]

There is no rule in forum that I have to answer any personal question

No rule that you have to answer any question or post at all. Feel free to abstain for as long as you want.

[Sean66]

How did this thread get so hopelessly de-railed?

We're talking about "structure" in wing chun. What we mean by the term, how we define it.

GlennR and YouKnowWho,

No one is comparing dancers and no one is suggesting that dancers in general know anything about fighting.

The only reason that dancers have been mentioned at all is because there has been much research in movement analysis....analysis of human movement in general...done in the field of dance. This is research that could be applied to help us in a purely pedagogical way...give us some tools to better understand what we throwing around terms like "structure".

GlennR,
No one is suggesting that a dancer can show you how to punch. But using methods of movement analysis (from biomechanics to Laban movement analysis) can help you understand exactly what you're doing with your body during your punch. This can, in turn, help you teach someone else. Now, maybe you already know....maybe you've already done your analysis....or maybe you don't feel the need for any analysis. That's cool.

[GlennR]

We're talking about "structure" in wing chun. What we mean by the term, how we define it.

GlennR and YouKnowWho,

No one is comparing dancers and no one is suggesting that dancers in general know anything about fighting.

The only reason that dancers have been mentioned at all is because there has been much research in movement analysis....analysis of human movement in general...done in the field of dance. This is research that could be applied to help us in a purely pedagogical way...give us some tools to better understand what we throwing around terms like "structure".

Hi Sean
Im all good with that, i find your terms useful and like your approach to the teaching. What i get my back up about is Hendrick jumping on any bandwagon to promote his theories. His constant MO is to turn any conversation involving structure around to his agenda (emei, snake tai Chi) and he's latest angle is using the dance analogy... his previous favourite has been cars.
I guess filing cabinets are next ;0


GlennR,
No one is suggesting that a dancer can show you how to punch. But using methods of movement analysis (from biomechanics to Laban movement analysis) can help you understand exactly what you're doing with your body during your punch. This can, in turn, help you teach someone else. Now, maybe you already know....maybe you've already done your analysis....or maybe you don't feel the need for any analysis. That's cool.


Yeh, i get all that. Id love to sit down with you and discuss this, but id suggest that the analysis has been done already by MAists with some biomechanical knowledge.
Having said that, you can never have enough knowledge :)

Incidentally, what WC guys have you seen that you think have a good structure and why?

[YouKnowWho]

The only reason that dancers have been mentioned at all is because there has been much research in movement analysis....analysis of human movement in general...done in the field of dance. This is research that could be applied to help us in a purely pedagogical way...give us some tools to better understand what we throwing around terms like "structure".

In solo dancing, you flow with the thin air. In joint dancing, your opponent moves with you. No dancer has to deal with opponent's resistence. The structure that we need in TCMA is to "be able to resist against outside force" that dancer will have "no knowledge" about it.

[Sean66]

YouKnowWho,

Read what I wrote. I think I've been pretty clear. But just in case....

You still seem to think that I am comparing dancers and martial artists. I am not.

I am talking about movement analysis. Movement analysis can be used to look at and better understand all human movement.

It just happens that a lot of research in movement analysis has been done by former dancers and dance educators. No wonder, really, since the essence of their trade (like ours) is to be found in the principles that guide human movement.

By the way, dancers deal with resistance and weight from outside all the time. The skills of partnering and contact-improvisation require very refined abilities in regards to feeling and manipulating the center, balance and weight of a partner/partners. Just as the skill of jumping and appearing light requires an intimate knowledge of gravity and how to use the connection with the floor. But this is just an aside, really. Do not mis-interperet this to mean that I am comparing dancers and martial artists.

GlennR,
I'll answer your question, no worries, but I gotta run out the door...I'll try to get back online tonight.

[Hendrik]

Hi Sean
Im all good with that, i find your terms useful and like your approach to the teaching. What i get my back up about is Hendrick jumping on any bandwagon to promote his theories. His constant MO is to turn any conversation involving structure around to his agenda (emei, snake tai Chi) and he's latest angle is using the dance analogy... his previous favourite has been cars.
I guess filing cabinets are next ;0





1, Snake in WCK is not my theories. it is all over WCK lineages since ancient time.

2, it is not snake taichi but Emei.

3, we are discussing dynamic structure here,
with motion analysis, All the three WCK form or set, has the Emei DNA. it is not Hung Gar or Shao Lin. That is a FACT.

If you dont buy it, go a head, get the motion analysis expert to do an analysis.







Do you have anything to offer instead of keep posting off track to attack me?

Just get this straight ; I notice from your posts against me, that started

since a few months ago, when Navin asking for my opinion, and I comment TST's clip is good for demo but not real internal art such as other TCMA IMA, you hold my technical view against me.

and since then you keep posting attack.


If you dont like my comment, that is for Navin and not you any way.

If you like to invite TST here, I am not shy to tell him what my view is and let him and me have a friendly technically discussion.

or if you dont like it, go a head, send the TST clip and the CXW clip to a Motion analist and let them tell you what is TST clip shows compare with the CXW clip.

I could be right, I could be wrong. I am willing to be wrong if the motion analist tell me so. But if I am right, then could you accept you are wrong?

You dont have to agree with me, however, I dont see a point to keep attacking me just because I comment on TST's clip.

I appology if my technical view of TST make you feel hurt.
I hope this post of opening up the root cause put an end to this issue.

[Hendrik]

Quote:
tell me who has a complete WCK system today.


TST and William Cheung in their respective systems





TST and William Cheung has their own system.

and that is might not be even be a complete WCK system of Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blv7BOT-GZk&feature=relmfu

How can it be a complete WCK system?




Even Ip Man WCK system is not a complete Chan Wah WCK system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=fvsr

[Eric_H]

All the three WCK form or set, has the Emei DNA


Hendrik,

Your wing chun doesn't even have 3 forms. You are making an unqualified statement. Snake WCK is your own personal theory based on your Cho Family Wing Chun and Emei training.

As we have discussed before, Yik Kam (your lineage's founder) didn't even call his art wing chun. Additionally, Wong Wa Bo's wing chun does not contain Emei elements and he was far senior to Yik Kam.

Without knowledge of the forms, and without spending the time to learn Wong Wa Bo's version of Wing Chun, by what right do you speak for all "WCK lineages since ancient time"?

[Hendrik]

Incidentally, what WC guys have you seen that you think have a good structure and why?


one doesnt have to seen WC guys. WC guys is not a reference of good structure.



one just has to know what is a full coverage good motion and momentum under motion and momentum analysis. and when one sees a good dynamic structure, be it from any style, from WCK to Taiji to mmA, one will be able to recognized it.

it is physics which matter, not label as in WC or Taichi or Xingyi or sifu XYZ or master ABC.


It is an evident that Sean's friend who did dancing without have to know Chen Taiji or Xing yi be able to identify the content of the dynamic structure of Chen Taiji and Xing Yi top players.


It is also an evident that lots of WCners are mistaken a flat frame similar to a picture to a 3 D motion as in stage dancing.


So, the key is motion and momentum analysis, until one really doesnt have an understanding of the motion in the 3 D space.


If one cant "see" it, one cant make it happen. that is the bottom line of motion.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Your wing chun doesn't even have 3 forms. You are making an unqualified statement. Snake WCK is your own personal theory based on your Cho Family Wing Chun and Emei training.

As we have discussed before, Yik Kam (your lineage's founder) didn't even call his art wing chun. Additionally, Wong Wa Bo's wing chun does not contain Emei elements and he was far senior to Yik Kam.

Without knowledge of the forms, and without spending the time to learn Wong Wa Bo's version of Wing Chun, by what right do you speak for all "WCK lineages since ancient time"?



Who cares about Cho or Yik Kam?



Sifu Sergio is a good neutral WCK researcher, and his youtube on the FACTS of different wing chun lineages is the evident.


you want to agrue? save your energy and the bandwidth of the forum.



send the Sergio's clip,


the following clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQPLgTgqkw&playnext=1&list=PLE0C4DF7B37F8ADD9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBjUHrkDHU&feature=related


with the Emei clip and Hung Gar clip and Shao lin clip
to an Expert Motion analist and let them tell you which motion "DNA" fits the WCK clips?
I let them tell you what is it.


So, why is the motion DNA analysis is critical? because if one using a Hung Gar way of motion to train an Emei DNA set, one will get no where but wasting effort. it is like keeping training in Iris tapping dancing and Wish some days one becomes a great ballet dancer.


Sometime, I am amazed by how some WCners is similar to a cult follower that rather ignore the law of physics to believe their own cult stories.

[WC1277]

one doesnt have to seen WC guys. WC guys is not a reference of good structure.



one just has to know what is a full coverage good motion and momentum under motion and momentum analysis. and when one sees a good dynamic structure, be it from any style, from WCK to Taiji to mmA, one will be able to recognized it.

it is physics which matter, not label as in WC or Taichi or Xingyi or sifu XYZ or master ABC.


It is an evident that Sean's friend who did dancing without have to know Chen Taiji or Xing yi be able to identify the content of the dynamic structure of Chen Taiji and Xing Yi top players.


It is also an evident that lots of WCners are mistaken a plat frame to a 3 D motion.


So, the key is motion and momentum analysis, until one really doesnt have an understanding of the motion in the 3 D space.


If one cant "see" it, one cant make it happen. that is the bottom line of motion.

And this is where you're completely off structure wise Hendrik.

I was trying to allude to it when I asked you about the center line.

WC structure is completely based on the center line and center of gravity. It is designed to always return to facing automatically without conscious intent... very different from what you're trying to shape it into...

[Hendrik]

And this is where you're completely off structure wise Hendrik.



how can it be completely off to use Physics or motion analysis as a based to investigate dynamic structure?


are we building sand castle in thin air?




I was trying to allude to it when I asked you about the center line.

WC structure is completely based on the center line and center of gravity.

It is designed to always return to facing automatically without conscious intent... very different from what you're trying to shape it into...



Too bad, WC exist within 3 Dimensional space and motion space and law of physics.


Without conscious intent?

tell me, what is a center line in a 2 D plane? a 3D space? a motion 3D space?

and dont tell me a drawn line in a 2 D plane can automatically alive in a motion 3 D space.

[YouKnowWho]

At 4.51, the teacher demonstrated "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)". When you apply this principle and if you can force your opponent to move back, you have good "structure", otherwise, you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1

Why can't we talk about "structure" in combat situation instead of just "solo" training? You may train "solo" all your life and oneday you find out that it just doesn't work. Why don't you train and "test" your structure at the same time so you know that you are moving on the right path?

Train -> test -> train -> test -> ... is the best way to develop any skill.

[Hendrik]

Sean,

So, I let go here on this discussion because It is better for others to find out what is going on. The more I share the more I become bad guy.



Finally,

Yes, The ancient writting of WCK has it all.

The layers and layers, the core types, the momentum source handling..... with these elements or dependent variable, a process of training exist which has a specific goal and result.

When these specific and process are missing that is the end of the art. or the dead of the soul.

Someday if you visit California, come to see me, I will share with you what I know 1850 red boat and let you bring them back to Europe and let those who love arts preserve them as a fine arts.

[WC1277]

how can it be completely off to use Physics or motion analysis as a based to investigate dynamic structure?


are we building sand castle in thin air?






Too bad, WC exist within 3 Dimensional space and motion space and law of physics.


Without conscious intent?

tell me, what is a center line in a 2 D plane? a 3D space? a motion 3D space?

and dont tell me a drawn line in a 2 D plane can automatically alive in a motion 3 D space.

2-d : a straight punch, stationary stance

3-d : a bong sau, turning stance

3-d motion : Ma Bo Chi Sao connected to center

[Hendrik]

At 4.51, the teacher demonstrated "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)". When you apply this principle and if you can force your opponent to move back, you have good "structure", otherwise, you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1




Do you know that 4.51 has an influence from Yi Chuan to WCK? go read WXZ's book

Do you know that one needs to first have a solid dynamic structure before one can do that?

without a true mastering enter other's middle door is like walking into cannon. try walk into a boxer's middle door and see for yourself.





Why can't we talk about "structure" in combat situation instead of just "solo" training?

You may train "solo" all your life and oneday you find out that it just doesn't work. Why don't you train and "test" your structure at the same time so you know that you are moving on the right path?

Train -> test -> train -> test -> ... is the best way to develop any skill.


No one disagree with you.

The issue is when one cant even have a clear handling the basic of the solo what to talk about combat situation?

[Hendrik]

2-d : a straight punch, stationary stance

3-d : a bong sau, turning stance

3-d motion : Ma Bo Chi Sao connected to center



I could be wrong, however, for me, the above are still Frame not dynamic structure fill with all kind of "fixed" part.


remember what Sean's friend said in her motion analysis description?


7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly

[YouKnowWho]

try walk into a boxer's middle door and see for yourself.

Are you saying that boxers have better "structure" than TCMA guys? How did they train their "structure"? Are there more than one path to obtain "structure"?


The issue is when one cant even have a clear handling the basic of the solo what to talk about combat situation?
How can you talk about something without being able to measure it?

train -> test -> train -> test -> ...

[Hendrik]

Are you saying that boxers have better "structure" than TCMA guys?

nope, I am saying one has to know how to play lively like a flow for real.




How can you talk about something without being able to measure it?

What is the reason do you think we keep bring up motion analysis and momentum analysis?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you know that 4.51 has an influence from Yi Chuan to WCK? go read WXZ's book.

No need to read any book. It's just common sense. 入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)" is the highest level of the TCMA training. The general TCMA term for that is "欺(Qi) - Take unfair advantage of", or "踏中宮直进(Ta Zhong Gong Zhi Jin) - walk right into your opponent's front door". You have to have excellent "structure" to be able to do that.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2425/kneeseizecounterfootswe.jpg


What is the reason do you think we keep bring up motion analysis and momentum analysis?

That's just not a good test IMO.

[Hendrik]

That's just not a good test IMO. By the way, 入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)" is the highest level of the TCMA training. The general TCMA term for that is "欺(Qi) - Take unfair advantage of" or "中宮直进(Zhong Gong Zhi Jin) - walk into his front door".


for me, There are lots of Chinese talk. and they all sound great.


the devil is in How? and what?

how to walk into the rapid firing area? and with what?
if one dont know how? and with what? then what to test?


raising an idea without the how and what is just an empty talk.

I personally love the multi-dimentional motion analysis or simulation because that give me a prediction of the boundary condition or strenght/limitation. Only with that one can know, can one walk in. otherwise, one is blind.

and as I keep saying center line is not something "fix" because anything "fix" in you will be the target to get fire. Dont expect your enermy is total moron.

thus, in WC Kuen kuit, it says Come accept, goes return, let go move forward, using silence to lead action. There is no saying about Center Line, no saying about fix structure. None at all.

it tells you keep flowing or moving. the biggest issue is if one needs to keep flowing and moving how do one generate the momentum needed at the instant needed? that is where the Fajing or WCK short power comes to play. Thus, this cannot be the Hung gar continous tensing core type. it is highly dynamic, and highly dynamic just cant come from staying fix and continous tensing because law of physics has to gorven.


So, you want to walk into the center door? in general, you must be able to seal him off before walk in. or you must be able to accelerate 5 X faster then him. Can one's solo body dynamic structure do that or meet that requirement? if yes, do it, if not can not be done.

[YouKnowWho]

for me, There are lots of Chinese talk. and they all sound great.

the devil is in How? and what?

how to walk into the rapid firing area? and with what?
if one dont know how? and with what? then what to test?

raising an idea without the how and what is just an empty talk.

I have presented 4 different ways to develop "structure" in this thread. Use body structure to

- stop incoming opponent with kick.
- block a full power hook punch.
- pull rubberband tied on a tree.
- enter your opponent's front door and run him down.

If you train with these 4 different drills 100 times daily with your opponent (or training equipment), you will develop good "structure" within 1 year.

So far you just talk about theory such as snake engine, 6DFV, or using some Taiji or XingYi guy's solo demo clip to make your point. I don't know who is "empty talk" here.

[WC1277]

I could be wrong, however, for me, the above are still Frame not dynamic structure fill with all kind of "fixed" part.


remember what Sean's friend said in her motion analysis description?

You seem to be one of those guys who only sees end movements.

Bong doesn't work as a position but in motion. One example of the motion being what's important is the jong to bong transition. Try this out. Have someone hold your arm down on your forearm. Try lifting with just your elbow. Doesn't work. Now try moving through jong to bong and it works with next to no effort.

The entire structure "aims" towards the opponents center. Remember that quote by ip man that says the opponent will show you how to hit him? That can only be by a structure that recoils back to the center. The motions that you call "fixed" enable this outcome and their strength is not in the stopping motion but in the active/passive that I've been trying to explain lately. How does that also work? With proper tension. You know how in the balloon Chi gung exercise you keep your fingers from touching each other? That's similar tension without muscle that's also in a good WC structure.

I don't know Hendrik. It seems like you're really trying to make WC something it is not

[Eric_H]

Who cares about Cho or Yik Kam?


If you don't even care about the Wing Chun you claim to practice then that about sums up the value of your opinion right there.



Sometime, I am amazed by how some WCners is similar to a cult follower that rather ignore the law of physics to believe their own cult stories.

The only one here with a cult mindset is you - you don't accept any questions to the "ultimate truth" you realized through sitting at a table and pretending to pet an imaginary dog.

Pretty much all WC outside of the one small branch (which was a later development) that you supposedly practice doesn't use that Emei stuff, yet somehow its the root of all WC? Please.

Take your nonsense somewhere else.

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
Sometime, I am amazed by how some WCners is similar to a cult follower that rather ignore the law of physics to believe their own cult stories.


I agree with Eric - Hendrik must therefore be amazed at his own wilful ignorance of physical reality.

Then again, as Bruce Sterling wrote, reality is a failed state these days.

[GlennR]

1, Snake in WCK is not my theories. it is all over WCK lineages since ancient time.

Its mentioned in a story about a Nun watch one fight a snake. Maybe it has some lost meaning but at the end of the day its a fable


2, it is not snake taichi but Emei.

I missed a comma.... but i think you got my drift


3, we are discussing dynamic structure here,
with motion analysis, All the three WCK form or set, has the Emei DNA. it is not Hung Gar or Shao Lin. That is a FACT.

The post is "what is structure to you", ive made my points as has everyone else in regards to that. Technical applicable points.
Youve dragged out your old "emei internal snake" wagon again, you belittle eveyone elses opnion, and try to get some loose association with Sean's friend after her insightful observation to boost your story.... again
Oh, Emei is NOT a fact.......... its your theory


If you dont buy it, go a head, get the motion analysis expert to do an analysis.

No, the best measurement of applied structure is from the guy i sparred last night.



Do you have anything to offer instead of keep posting off track to attack me?

You know what, i must admit i probabbly do hound you too much... but ill stop when you stop your condascending self serving attitude. Deal?


Just get this straight ; I notice from your posts against me, that started

since a few months ago, when Navin asking for my opinion, and I comment TST's clip is good for demo but not real internal art such as other TCMA IMA, you hold my technical view against me.

and since then you keep posting attack.

Im sure i criticised you before that. Incidentally, i said TST had structure which you said didnt meet your TCMA criteria, im interested in the result whilst you are interested in the way as is TST id say



If you dont like my comment, that is for Navin and not you any way.

If you like to invite TST here, I am not shy to tell him what my view is and let him and me have a friendly technically discussion.

or if you dont like it, go a head, send the TST clip and the CXW clip to a Motion analist and let them tell you what is TST clip shows compare with the CXW clip.

I could be right, I could be wrong. I am willing to be wrong if the motion analist tell me so. But if I am right, then could you accept you are wrong?

You dont have to agree with me, however, I dont see a point to keep attacking me just because I comment on TST's clip.

I appology if my technical view of TST make you feel hurt.

Once again, im interested in the result, the applicable result of good WC structure.
I dont give a rats **** what you or a "motion analyst" have to say about TST or any other regarded WC person. Its the result that matters within the confines of the WC structure. I dont care about lineage, stories... all that stuff, its interesting for a chat but thats it.

You, however, are obsessed with the way of getting there..... you cant show us a single result, not one, yet you are happy to tell everyone your way is the right/original way.
Youre lost


I hope this post of opening up the root cause put an end to this issue

[GlennR]

TST and William Cheung has their own system.

and that is might not be even be a complete WCK system of Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blv7BOT-GZk&feature=relmfu

How can it be a complete WCK system?

Thats you argument for everything.... some guy on a youtube clip



Even Ip Man WCK system is not a complete Chan Wah WCK system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=fvsr

And ofcourse you should believe everyting these 2 gentlemen say

[GlennR]

one doesnt have to seen WC guys. WC guys is not a reference of good structure.

I see, so you are saying that no one on this forum has good structure

[Hendrik]

You seem to be one of those guys who only sees end movements.

Bong doesn't work as a position but in motion. One example of the motion being what's important is the jong to bong transition. Try this out. Have someone hold your arm down on your forearm. Try lifting with just your elbow. Doesn't work. Now try moving through jong to bong and it works with next to no effort.

The entire structure "aims" towards the opponents center. Remember that quote by ip man that says the opponent will show you how to hit him? That can only be by a structure that recoils back to the center. The motions that you call "fixed" enable this outcome and their strength is not in the stopping motion but in the active/passive that I've been trying to explain lately. How does that also work? With proper tension. You know how in the balloon Chi gung exercise you keep your fingers from touching each other? That's similar tension without muscle that's also in a good WC structure.

I don't know Hendrik. It seems like you're really trying to make WC something it is not



For me, you are talking the power of a certain frame again.

Does those stuffs you train work in this type of situation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Z8OlxazPM


perhaps it is me have a different WC view or may be you are trying to put the world in a frame you learn from a WC lineage.

[anerlich]

to a Motion analist

Better check that there spelling - I ain't sending nothing to no analist. :rolleyes:

I guess now the seed has been planted, you'll be taking about motion analysts (or analists, up to you) from here to doomsday, despite being no more knowledgeable about them than any other layman.

Correction, perhaps you are more knowledgeable about analists than the rest of us, judging from where it sounds like your head is stuck much of the time...

[Hendrik]

Thats you argument for everything.... some guy on a youtube clip

And ofcourse you should believe everyting these 2 gentlemen say


1, he is not some guy. he is an elderly in Ip Man WCK lineage.

2, it got nothing to do with believe. it is an evidence which could be back up and trace in the area of Canton.

[WC1277]

For me, you are talking the power of a certain frame again.

Does those stuffs you train work in this type of situation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Z8OlxazPM


perhaps it is me have a different WC view or may be you are trying to put the world in a frame you learn from a WC lineage.

In some of those situations, yes, I think a good WC structure would do just fine. In others distance would be better.

I don't quite get your point. Are you saying your theory would deal with all of those situations?

On another note, Hendrik, since you love to keep playing schematics. Fine, I guess I'm talking frame then, but an engine is useless without a frame and if you're going to preach power development, then try to keep it within the frame(no pun intended) of WC movement. And whether you like it or not, that includes a centerline intent. Just a imagine a vehicle with all four tires moving the "same" direction if that helps you put it into context....

[GlennR]

]1, he is not some guy. he is an elderly in Ip Man WCK lineage.

So's TST but his opnion doesnt count as far as you are concerned.
Look up hypocrisy in the dictionary


2, it got nothing to do with believe. it is an evidence which could be back up and trace in the area of Canton.

No, the evidence can be seen in gyms/kwoons/dojos etc where men and woman work hard, fail, try again, fail again but get back on their feet and try to get better day in and day out.

The hearsay of some old guy somewhere in China only has validity if he can give a result. Im not saying he cant but if they are happy to be interviewed , giving their opinion on the shortcomings of other WC, then they should get up on the same video and show us what they can do.... or their students.

Its no different than me sitting at the bar at the pub, telling everyone who'll listen about what a great street fighter i was in 1998, and how the other fighters werent as good. Then getting up and showing everyone my famous "1-2 Combo"

[YouKnowWho]

try walk into a boxer's middle door and see for yourself.


Does those stuffs you train work in this type of situation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Z8OlxazPM

You don't seem to have much confidence in the art that you train do you? :confused:

[Hendrik]

So's TST but his opnion doesnt count as far as you are concerned.
Look up hypocrisy in the dictionary



No, the evidence can be seen in gyms/kwoons/dojos etc where men and woman work hard, fail, try again, fail again but get back on their feet and try to get better day in and day out.

The hearsay of some old guy somewhere in China only has validity if he can give a result. Im not saying he cant but if they are happy to be interviewed , giving their opinion on the shortcomings of other WC, then they should get up on the same video and show us what they can do.... or their students.

Its no different than me sitting at the bar at the pub, telling everyone who'll listen about what a great street fighter i was in 1998, and how the other fighters werent as good. Then getting up and showing everyone my famous "1-2 Combo"



I have just shown you by evidence there is no Complete WCK system even with TST or IpMan, but it is TST's or Ip Man's WCK system.

[Hendrik]

You don't seem to have much confidence in the art that you train do you? :confused:


Got nothing with confident. I am a design engineer, I question what is the design for and how it is done in details.

[GlennR]

I have just shown you by evidence there is no Complete WCK system even with TST or IpMan, but it is TST's or Ip Man's WCK system.

No, youve shown nothing.
Just the opinion of someone. Like your theories.... an opinion.

And thats fine, we all have opinions, but you seem to think that yours are fact.
They arent.

[Hendrik]

In some of those situations, yes, I think a good WC structure would do just fine. In others distance would be better.

I don't quite get your point. Are you saying your theory would deal with all of those situations?

On another note, Hendrik, since you love to keep playing schematics.

Fine, I guess I'm talking frame then, but an engine is useless without a frame and if you're going to preach power development, then try to keep it within the frame(no pun intended) of WC movement.

And whether you like it or not, that includes a centerline intent. Just a imagine a vehicle with all four tires moving the "same" direction if that helps you put it into context....



you know, I have not seen the type of WCK frame you talk about in any real fighting. not in mmA.


For me,


I have used Bong sau to get an advantage in my Kyokushin kai tournament 35 years ago, but that only last for 2hours. because they found out how to break it at the second match.


When I fought IMA decades later, he uses no frame I uses no frame, it is a matter of how fast we could generate momentum on contact in different entry or exchange. nothing fix just do it. The general center line most people talk about ..... are simply too late because no one stop at a position for long.

That is just me.

[Hendrik]

No, youve shown nothing.
Just the opinion of someone. Like your theories.... an opinion.

And thats fine, we all have opinions, but you seem to think that yours are fact.
They arent.

I just show you what is the facts using Sergio's China visits. they are not theory but real people. whether you accept them or not, they exist in this world.

[GlennR]

I just show you what is the facts using Sergio's China visits. they are not theory but real people. whether you accept them or not, they exist in this world.


I accept that they are real, but why should i believe what they say?

If i was sitting at a bar telling you what a great fighter i was would you believe me?

[WC1277]

you know, I have not seen the type of WCK frame you talk about in any real fighting. not in mmA.


For me,


I have used Bong sau to get an advantage in my Kyokushin kai tournament 35 years ago, but that only last for 2hours. because they found out how to break it at the second match.


When I fought IMA decades later, he uses no frame I uses no frame, it is a matter of how fast we could generate momentum on contact in different entry or exchange. nothing fix just do it. The general center line most people talk about ..... are simply too late because no one stop at a position for long.

That is just me.

I have not seen it in mma either but that means nothing at the end of the day.

I've used WC in the few fights I've been in and yes, it looks nothing like Chi Sao or anything really. It's more like attacking through empty holes if that makes sense to anyone. But every time I began to lose my center of gravity through contact, my Chi Sao development kicked right in like it was supposed to and in those moments it was dead on classic WC frame if even for a fraction of a second.

Hit within the principles of that system and you can hit whatever way you like...

I've always been of the understanding that WC as a whole is a recovery system from loss of balance while fighting. Constantly moving in to attack just guarantees that system is in the right range to be effective.

[Hendrik]

I accept that they are real, but why should i believe what they say?

If i was sitting at a bar telling you what a great fighter i was would you believe me?


one always can track and verify things from different angle. For the Sergio interview cases, there are lots of what they address can be verified.

[GlennR]

one always can track and verify things from different angle. For the Sergio interview cases, there are lots of what they address can be verified.

By who??

Its hearsay

[Hendrik]

By who??

Its hearsay


one can make up a story, but one can ask the villagers to verify the story. Chinese are closed tied people, there are multiple trace could verify things. There are also signatures could be investigate.

[GlennR]

one can make up a story, but one can ask the villagers to verify the story. Chinese are closed tied people, there are multiple trace could verify things. There are also signatures could be investigate.

Once again, i could be sitting at the bar telling you what a great fighter i was with all the locals agreeing.... but who's to say they are good judges??

I could be a great local tennnis player but would that make me able to judge Roger Federer??

No.

[Vajramusti]

A long way from the first post. Lost. What are we verifying now.

Ok. Never mind.

Do bluebirds still fly over the white cliffs of Dover?

Just wait and see??

Joy

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

Hendrik you need to show us YOUR physical ideas at work,not random clips.

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

Hendrik you need to show us YOUR physical ideas at work,not random clips.

I forgot how funny those guys were.... genius

[k gledhill]

I forgot how funny those guys were.... genius

Im still laughing....:D

[GlennR]

Im still laughing....:D

I remember sittind down watching their movies on Saturday afternoons on TV.... fond childhood memories

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jocRd-aajW0

They also knew things about structure and how to recover from lost structure.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jocRd-aajW0

They also knew things about structure and how to recover from lost structure.

joy chaudhuri

A possible WC in cloe fighting scenario??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvugebaT6Q

[Vajramusti]

A possible WC in cloe fighting scenario??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvugebaT6Q
---------------------------------------------------------------
That is not structure but function... handling multi directional vectors possibly.

joy

[Sean66]

Hi,
Just to answer GlennR's question a few pages back as to who I think has "good wing chun structure and why".

First of all, remember that I define structure more generally: The way that we consciously choose to organize/position the body in space. As has been said by plenty of people, structure is inherently dynamic. Especially when considering the way it is used strategically in relation to an opponent (which is what it's all about, really).

And a few thoughts:

Maybe we're getting bogged down by the very term "structure". When we hear the word we tend to envision something fixed and unmoving, like a building. Words like "solid" and "stable" come to mind, often at the expense of words like "flexible" and "resilient" or "elastic". I don't know. Maybe it's better to talk about movement. How we dynamically organize our bodies in moving through space, and, in the case of martial arts, how we do that in order to achieve a certain strategic advantage or end.

Anyway, I can list three names without hesitation in answer to your question, GlennR: Phiipp Bayer, Wan Kam Leung and Michael Kurth.

All three of these people have found the balance between stability and mobility. They are capable of controlling their opponents through small adjustments in positioning depending on the dynamics of the situation.

When Philipp puts the pressure on (and I'm sure I only felt the half of it the few times we've chi-saoed together during workshops) it's like a tsunami rushing toward you, flowing through your attempts to stop it. When you attack him, all you do is fall into emptiness, leaving yourself completely exposed to his counterattacks. He is constantly using his movement/body positioning to control and cut-off your own possibilities of attack and counter-attack.

Against Michael it's the same. You just can't stop his frontal assault. Like my buddy Kai in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2US_ZXxLTGk

This is something all three have in common. Using angles to cut-off the possibilities of their opponents. Either in absorbing force (like using angling footwork to let an attack fall into nothingness) or in direct countering. "Attacking into the attack", as it where.

Wan Kam Leung was kind enough to explain and demonstrate to me his ideas about wing chun some years ago in Hong Kong. He openly admits that he has changed certain things in regards to what he learned under Wong Shun Leung. But notwithstanding these changes the feeling of doing chi sao with him was the same. Like doing chi sao with a tree. The branches flexible, and elastic; the roots deep and strong.

[k gledhill]

I saw Michael has a new book out....

[Sean66]

Yep. Should be a great book. For those of you that read German, here is the link:

http://www.amazon.de/VING-TSUN-Das-Konzept-Vereinfachung/dp/3842373074/ref=sr_1_15?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312375993&sr=1-15

[GlennR]

Hi,
Just to answer GlennR's question a few pages back as to who I think has "good wing chun structure and why".

First of all, remember that I define structure more generally: The way that we consciously choose to organize/position the body in space. As has been said by plenty of people, structure is inherently dynamic. Especially when considering the way it is used strategically in relation to an opponent (which is what it's all about, really).

And a few thoughts:

Maybe we're getting bogged down by the very term "structure". When we hear the word we tend to envision something fixed and unmoving, like a building. Words like "solid" and "stable" come to mind, often at the expense of words like "flexible" and "resilient" or "elastic". I don't know. Maybe it's better to talk about movement. How we dynamically organize our bodies in moving through space, and, in the case of martial arts, how we do that in order to achieve a certain strategic advantage or end.

Anyway, I can list three names without hesitation in answer to your question, GlennR: Phiipp Bayer, Wan Kam Leung and Michael Kurth.

All three of these people have found the balance between stability and mobility. They are capable of controlling their opponents through small adjustments in positioning depending on the dynamics of the situation.

When Philipp puts the pressure on (and I'm sure I only felt the half of it the few times we've chi-saoed together during workshops) it's like a tsunami rushing toward you, flowing through your attempts to stop it. When you attack him, all you do is fall into emptiness, leaving yourself completely exposed to his counterattacks. He is constantly using his movement/body positioning to control and cut-off your own possibilities of attack and counter-attack.

Against Michael it's the same. You just can't stop his frontal assault. Like my buddy Kai in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2US_ZXxLTGk

This is something all three have in common. Using angles to cut-off the possibilities of their opponents. Either in absorbing force (like using angling footwork to let an attack fall into nothingness) or in direct countering. "Attacking into the attack", as it where.

Wan Kam Leung was kind enough to explain and demonstrate to me his ideas about wing chun some years ago in Hong Kong. He openly admits that he has changed certain things in regards to what he learned under Wong Shun Leung. But notwithstanding these changes the feeling of doing chi sao with him was the same. Like doing chi sao with a tree. The branches flexible, and elastic; the roots deep and strong.

Thanks Sean
Im pretty sure WKL was in Australia not so long ago (inperialtaichi trained with him) and i wish id got the chance to meet him as ive heard good things about him.

Maybe next time