Indian wrestlers, ninjas, and real fighters

[Mattador]

I read a book by Masaaki Hatsumi, Ninja Grandmaster, abd the book featured an interview in one of its chapters. The interviewer was a martial artist from India who studied with Hatsumi for the short time he was visiting Japan.

They got into a discussion about sport vs real training. The Indian student said this: "There are many wrestlers in India and it is very popular in the cities. But even the wrestlers will not venture to the country side for fear of the deadly martial artists that live there. One particular martial artist walks 10 miles a day, barefoot, while tending his sheep. He is nimble in the feet and has a scariness about him that no wrestler would want to face."
Hatsumi responds: "I am glad that you recognize the difference between sport and real life training."

My analysis:
1. These deadly countryside martial artists are the one's who are actually hiding from the city and from being challenged. Who is going to roam around the jungle looking for a contest? No one. So these sheep herding tough guys hide away from the city slickers while regaling the local kids with stories of the deadly ten mile walking prowess.
2. The training methods of wrestlers are well known And video taped. They work hard to get good at what they do. The interview made no mention about the training
Methods of these scary fighters from the countryside.

3. Wrestlers get involved with resistance training which is like a dirty word many tmaists. As a kid reading this for the first time I could not help but fantasize about meeting this deadly sheep herder. Then when I started resistance training, combined with YouTube, I stopped fantasizing and started actually training. There will never be videos of these so called deadly fighters because they only exist in oral legends.

What do you all think is keeping this lie alive?

[bawang]

What do you all think is keeping this lie alive?

white people

[Mattador]

white people

I think you are right this time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few things:
Competition STARTED with TMA and the "too deadly" still is and always will be part of sport combat arts ( every sport art has illegal moves that are too dangerous for competitions).
The notion of resistance training has ALWAYS been a part of TMA.
Those folk legends are just that legends, but what many don't realize is the truth behind them:
Those masters that are "too deadly" for sport were the masters of those that currently DID sport, that has "retired" to the country life.

Behind every folk tale and legend is the truth, if you look hard enough.

There is an always will be a difference between sport and "real world" fighting, to say they are the same is naive at best.
The issue is that some people forget that "sport" fighting is PART of the preparation for REAL fighting.
It is not and never has been (till now) a question of either / or.

[SPJ]

nin ja used weapons and many of them, ususally specially made.

nin ja planned escape routes and scoped or scouted the area beforehand.

nin ja work in groups.

in contrast

one arm, one blade and one man fighter is sort of not working or fantasy for nin ji tsu

--

[Mattador]

A few things:
Competition STARTED with TMA and the "too deadly" still is and always will be part of sport combat arts ( every sport art has illegal moves that are too dangerous for competitions).
The notion of resistance training has ALWAYS been a part of TMA.
Those folk legends are just that legends, but what many don't realize is the truth behind them:
Those masters that are "too deadly" for sport were the masters of those that currently DID sport, that has "retired" to the country life.

Behind every folk tale and legend is the truth, if you look hard enough.

There is an always will be a difference between sport and "real world" fighting, to say they are the same is naive at best.
The issue is that some people forget that "sport" fighting is PART of the preparation for REAL fighting.
It is not and never has been (till now) a question of either / or.

My issue with that chapter is that they did not outline what it takes to be a deadly countryside fighter.

Let us look at judo. Before judo came Boit jujitsu masters practiced compliant joint locks. Kano institute randori. His students came back and thrashed all the traditional deadly jujitsu fighters.

You bring up interesting points.

[Mattador]

nin ja used weapons and many of them, ususally specially made.

nin ja planned escape routes and scoped or scouted the area beforehand.

nin ja work in groups.

in contrast

one arm, one blade and one man fighter is sort of not working or fantasy for nin ji tsu

--

Modern ninja do not train like that or for that. Go on YouTube and type in bujinkan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My issue with that chapter is that they did not outline what it takes to be a deadly countryside fighter.

Let us look at judo. Before judo came Boit jujitsu masters practiced compliant joint locks. Kano institute randori. His students came back and thrashed all the traditional deadly jujitsu fighters.

You bring up interesting points.

That much hyped Judo contest showed the importance of live training vs " dead" training, but Kano did NOT create that type of Randori, it existed in the two systems he trained in:
Kito-ryu and Tenjin-shinyo-ryu JJ, both TJMA.
It was not a case of TMA VS SMA, it was a case of freestyle training VS pre-arranged training.

[David Jamieson]

ninja stories are mostly that "stories"

there is no ninja dojo an dthere never has been.

a ninja was a dishonorable scumbag who did dirty stuff for men who could not because they were bound by oath.

no schools, no dojos, nothing, just some guys with maybe some martial skills and a few tricks.

whole villages for hire actually in some cases and fwiw "ninja training" is a hard load of crap.

so yes, deluded suckers keep that alive. I wouldn't say white people though. lol.

racist barbs= :rolleyes:

[Mattador]

That much hyped Judo contest showed the importance of live training vs " dead" training, but Kano did NOT create that type of Randori, it existed in the two systems he trained in:
Kito-ryu and Tenjin-shinyo-ryu JJ, both TJMA.
It was not a case of TMA VS SMA, it was a case of freestyle training VS pre-arranged training.

Of course he did not create it. Sparring in wrestling has been done in Monglia, China, India, and anywhere else there was indigenous wrestling. What Kano brought to it was some Japanese philosophy.

[David Jamieson]

Kano brought a sport ideology to it.

[Mattador]

ninja stories are mostly that "stories"

there is no ninja dojo an dthere never has been.

a ninja was a dishonorable scumbag who did dirty stuff for men who could not because they were bound by oath.

no schools, no dojos, nothing, just some guys with maybe some martial skills and a few tricks.

whole villages for hire actually in some cases and fwiw "ninja training" is a hard load of crap.

so yes, deluded suckers keep that alive. I wouldn't say white people though. lol.

racist barbs= :rolleyes:


I do not believe it is any one race. Bawang's comment had good timing though.

[David Jamieson]

I do not believe it is any one race. Bawang's comment had good timing though.

Yes, but he left out the real culprits " Americans"

[Mattador]

Yes, but he left out the real culprits " Americans"

Clearly it is not just Americans since tthe two guys from the interview were from Japan and India.

[bawang]

my iranian friend at work says he has a black belt in "kung fu tua" from tehran

theres a baji fetish in japan because of that manga comic

its not just americans


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDJkvvyKJHo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kano brought a sport ideology to it.

There is SOME debate about that, but I tend to agree with the view that Kano believed sport would help in the promotion of Judo but should NO be the MAIN goal of Judo.

[SPJ]

Modern ninja do not train like that or for that. Go on YouTube and type in bujinkan.

fighting including war, is a thing/affair by a group of people or concerns many.

one man army is only a fantasy

so a real fighter fights with a team and weapons

---

[Jimbo]

I would also imagine that the samurai who practiced the skills that later fell under the umbrella term jujitsu trained a lot more realistically when they were actually taking part in warfare, prior to the Tokugawa era. Not that the empty-hand skills were ever the main focus of the samurai, but it would have been an important auxiliary skill just in case. I'd also assume that the original jujitsu skills were simpler and far less elaborate than the jujitsu that was mostly being taught by the late 1800s.

What Kano did with his judo was an amazing accomplishment. As some have noted on this board, pre-world war II judo contained a lot more than you see now in Olympic-style judo, including plenty of groundwork. One good book on that is Higher Judo: Groundwork by Feldenkrais, originally published around 1952. A lot of the same stuff you'll find in BJJ which, in itself, is a modification of pre-WWII judo.

One can become a good MAist without having competed in sparring/fighting, but IMO, there is quite a difference between those who have (to some degree or other) and those who haven't at all. Of course it's not the same as actual combat, but it's the closest you can safely come to it, in a controlled environment. When you've gotten older and no longer compete, even if that fine edge is lost, you will still carry your experiences with you.

[Taixuquan99]

The problem is, where is the proof that the guy in the countryside wasn't a good fighter? To base this assumption on knowing other people's practices, and only knowing hearsay on his, is not a compelling argument. He might've been more modern, in the period in which he trained with others, than the others of his time. He might've been a prodigy. This is always the problem with making arguments from hearsay and from unconfirmed stories and applying your own assumptions to details you normally would have to admit you don't know.

For instance, nothing in the story ascribes it to the man in the countryside or anyone related to him, so there could be no solid ground in saying the view comes from them, or that the practices they credited were walking every day, etc. If it were from them, you can bet his name would be in the story.

[faxiapreta]

Kano brought a sport ideology to it.

Which is exactly what made it superior for full contact fighting.

[bawang]

i really love watching rioheroes, i think its even better than ufc

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would also imagine that the samurai who practiced the skills that later fell under the umbrella term jujitsu trained a lot more realistically when they were actually taking part in warfare, prior to the Tokugawa era. Not that the empty-hand skills were ever the main focus of the samurai, but it would have been an important auxiliary skill just in case. I'd also assume that the original jujitsu skills were simpler and far less elaborate than the jujitsu that was mostly being taught by the late 1800s.

What Kano did with his judo was an amazing accomplishment. As some have noted on this board, pre-world war II judo contained a lot more than you see now in Olympic-style judo, including plenty of groundwork. One good book on that is Higher Judo: Groundwork by Feldenkrais, originally published around 1952. A lot of the same stuff you'll find in BJJ which, in itself, is a modification of pre-WWII judo.

One can become a good MAist without having competed in sparring/fighting, but IMO, there is quite a difference between those who have (to some degree or other) and those who haven't at all. Of course it's not the same as actual combat, but it's the closest you can safely come to it, in a controlled environment. When you've gotten older and no longer compete, even if that fine edge is lost, you will still carry your experiences with you.

Quite correct.
Kano's Judo was HEAVILY influenced by the Tenjin-shinyo ryu, which specialised in strikes and chokes and lots of ground work, he also got the besy of the JJJ guys and brought them over to his Judo ( a shrewd move in many regards).
Maeda is a prime example of what Kano's judo was at its core- MMA in its original form.
Kimura was perhaps THE example of sport judo in its popular form but Maeda was the perfect example of the development that Judo was going through.

[Ray Pina]

There is an always will be a difference between sport and "real world" fighting, to say they are the same is naive at best.
The issue is that some people forget that "sport" fighting is PART of the preparation for REAL fighting.
It is not and never has been (till now) a question of either / or.

That was perfectly said. The military runs war games all the time, dog fights, shoot down dummy missiles... and then there's the boxing and combat training, also with their competitions. Preparing for competition brings out the best in people.... I was just watching a special on CNN about hardcore cheerleaders (not that kind).... they're training 4 hours a day after school, every day for national competition. That's where you find the best of the best. The best two or three guys per gym should be out competing. That's normal for BJJ, Thai boxing, MMA academies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was perfectly said. The military runs war games all the time, dog fights, shoot down dummy missiles... and then there's the boxing and combat training, also with their competitions. Preparing for competition brings out the best in people.... I was just watching a special on CNN about hardcore cheerleaders (not that kind).... they're training 4 hours a day after school, every day for national competition. That's where you find the best of the best. The best two or three guys per gym should be out competing. That's normal for BJJ, Thai boxing, MMA academies.

Quite correct.
Competition is a phase that is crucial for ever MA to go through.
How long it lasts will depend on the person of course, BUT it is a must, I truly believe that.
When you've gone through it, training 6 days a week, 3-4 hours a day, losing 10-15 lbs, when you vomit during a workout, when your body tells you NO and you push beyond that, these things teach you more about yourself than anything else.