Is Wing Chun clinch fighting?

[faxiapreta]

HumbleWCGuy stated that WC was clinch fighting. He suggested that someone come here and ask the WC experts.

Is Wing Chun clinch figthing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can meet worms, LOL !

[Vajramusti]

Can meet worms, LOL !
----------------------------------------------------------------

Or the repeated return of knifefighter- same old same old...

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Or Worms, meet can . . . . . lol

[k gledhill]

HumbleWCGuy stated that WC was clinch fighting. He suggested that someone come here and ask the WC experts.

Is Wing Chun clinch figthing?


No, guys who try to make a 1:1 with chi sao drills will make this mistake.
We fight to strike, turn, flank, not allow face to face. Nor do we block while standing in front of guys rushing in punching to take downs.
There is a high degree of mobilty and angling many aren't
aware of so they think to use two arms out and perpetuate
Clinching.

[mjw]

I'd say though WC fights closer in than say Karate etc. it can move into clinch fighting however as my sifu always said the more you grab the less you hit. Therefore why would one really "clinch" other than to control by holding which makes handles and what not though there are some clinch like movements in the system such as the grabbing of the back of the head and punching if there is resistance a good WC guy will disengage and go to another attack accordingly?

So I would say no???

[faxiapreta]

No, guys who try to make a 1:1 with chi sao drills will make this mistake.
We fight to strike, turn, flank, not allow face to face. Nor do we block while standing in front of guys rushing in punching to take downs.
There is a high degree of mobilty and angling many aren't
aware of so they think to use two arms out and perpetuate
Clinching.

Score so far:

Clinch- 0
Not clinch- 2

[LoneTiger108]

Is Wing Chun clinch figthing?

No. And yes. :D

[faxiapreta]

Clinch- .5
Not clinch- 2.5

[KenWingJitsu]

It is clinch RANGE fighting.

Or more accurately, it is best applied at clinch range...

[faxiapreta]

It is clinch RANGE fighting.

Or more accurately, it is best applied at clinch range...


Clinch- .5
Not clinch- 2.5
Clinch Range But Not Clinch- 1

[HumbleWCGuy]

I said that it is partially clinch fighting. To say that it is strictly clinch fighting is just dumb. If you look through my posts you will see about 1/2 them telling T_niehoff that he is a moron for suggesting that wing chun is nothing but clinch fighting.

[faxiapreta]

I said that it is partially clinch fighting. To say that it is strictly clinch fighting is just dumb.

You also said, your style of WC is particularly focused on clinch fighting, but you never explained what style that was? Which particular style of WC were you talking about?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You also said, your style of WC is particularly focused on clinch fighting, but you never explained what style that was? Which particular style of WC were you talking about?

No I didn't say that. I said that it is a part of the training. I said that Robert Chu's stuff was pretty strictly clinch fighting. That's absolutely true. They call it attached fighting.

[Vajramusti]

Light on wing chun:0

Knifefighter trolling again:4-5

[k gledhill]

We drill with equally extended arms so we can train facing to strike with each arm , regardless of what direction you move and as we angle moving to attack sideways, forwards or angle offside the leading line of force.
In sparring we use cycling strikes so the rear cant be stopped from making a new attack. each centered arm/elbow can reach with force of moving structure.
guys clinch to control ,cover hands, vt would shove to make space to hit .
Ive had many fights with guys who start by grabbing my wrists so they dont get hit...i dont do that as a response to being attacked.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Light on wing chun:0

Knifefighter trolling again:4-5
Truer words have never been typed.

[faxiapreta]

No I didn't say that. I said that it is a part of the training. I said that Robert Chu's stuff was pretty strictly clinch fighting. That's absolutely true. They call it attached fighting.

OK, fair enough. My mistake.

Here is what you said:

My lineage doesn't even do chi sao. I was doing "MT" clinching before I had even heard of MT.

Which lineage of WC does not do chi sao?

[GlennR]

HumbleWCGuy stated that WC was clinch fighting. He suggested that someone come here and ask the WC experts.

Is Wing Chun clinch figthing?



Define what you mean by clinch

[anerlich]

Define what you mean by clinch

Fair question.

To the OP, I would say no ...

Robert Chu and Alan Orr include Chin na as part of their curriculum, but IMO it is debatable whether this is Wing Chun or a separate discipline.

Since there is a significant crossover with other clinch fighting disciplines like Greco-Roman wrestling, I would say that it is separate from the core of WC.

[trubblman]

If by clinch you mean the action two boxers do when one grabs another then Wing Chun is not clinch fighting. That action is the antithesis of fighting if one is a pugilist. One is either tired or hanging on for dear life so as not to get punched. If one is a grappler it is a precursor to a throw or something.

[GlennR]

If by clinch you mean the action two boxers do when one grabs another then Wing Chun is not clinch fighting. That action is the antithesis of fighting if one is a pugilist. One is either tired or hanging on for dear life so as not to get punched. If one is a grappler it is a precursor to a throw or something.

Thats a little bit simplistic in regards to why a clinch may form.
Plenty of boxers, and particularly MT guys, like to fight from this range... hooks and uppercuts in boxing, elbows and kness in MT

A few reasons they may chose to fight at this distance are;
- Shorter (lack range)
- They are counter strikers and prefer to respond from that range
- They are slower and find it easier to deal with their opponents speed by "closing them down"
- They are tired (as you said)

[trubblman]

A few reasons they may chose to fight at this distance are;
- Shorter (lack range)
- They are counter strikers and prefer to respond from that range
- They are slower and find it easier to deal with their opponents speed by "closing them down"
- They are tired (as you said)

Perhaps you don't understand what a clinch is. Here is the accepted definition of clinch: If a "clinch" – a defensive move in which a boxer wraps his or her opponents arms and holds on to create a pause – is broken by the referee, each fighter must take a full step back before punching again (alternatively, the referee may direct the fighters to "punch out" of the clinch). That comes from the Wikipedia site about boxing. Sounds to me like you are confusing clinch with very short range fighting.

[GlennR]

Perhaps you don't understand what a clinch is. Here is the accepted definition of clinch: If a "clinch" – a defensive move in which a boxer wraps his or her opponents arms and holds on to create a pause – is broken by the referee, each fighter must take a full step back before punching again (alternatively, the referee may direct the fighters to "punch out" of the clinch). Sounds to me like you are confusing clinch with very short range fighting.


I was doing clinch training on Saturday (MT) so i may have some idea.

Boxers, MTers and a lot of MMA guys work of the clinch exactly as i said.
Have a look on Youtube and youll find a million clips showing you that.

In regards to the referee in a boxing match calling for a break, depends on the individual, some will allow more clinching and inside work and some wont.

Having said that, i thought this thread was about clinch fighting in regards to WC, not boxing in a ring

[Violent Designs]

Perhaps you don't understand what a clinch is. Here is the accepted definition of clinch: If a "clinch" – a defensive move in which a boxer wraps his or her opponents arms and holds on to create a pause – is broken by the referee, each fighter must take a full step back before punching again (alternatively, the referee may direct the fighters to "punch out" of the clinch). That comes from the Wikipedia site about boxing. Sounds to me like you are confusing clinch with very short range fighting.

Seems like you don't understand the nature of a clinch, especially someone who uses the clinch aggressively.

Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJppfgTIKrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJXWaOxszg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhsDZna6AE

Muay Thai clinch, underhooks/overhooks from the first minute, a lot of knees, a lot of body punches.

VERY aggressive and offensive clinching.

[Dragonzbane76]

clinch in boxing is different from the clinch in grappling arts and MT. Clinch in boxing is more of a defensive act than offensive one. Not saying that body shots and aggressive manners cannot be taken though. Most boxers when hit with a flurry will clinch up to entangle arms and stop the incoming shots and get a "short" break in the aggression from the opponent. But like stated before it can be an aggressive act as well.

[anerlich]

Perhaps you don't understand what a clinch is.

Um, perhaps you don't understand what clinch fighting is.


That comes from the Wikipedia site about boxing.

You probably should look at the Wikipedia site about clinch fighting instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinch_fighting

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am not sure what is refered to as clinch fighting really. I guess it could be called clinch fighting. I am short, and most men might have a little bit of reach on me, which makes it necessary for me to get in under his punching range. Most boxer types can not fight you close in because they need a bit of room to effect a good punch. In order to do so and not get hooked up uppercut I would sort of clinch by actually grabbing or suppressing his arms and hands while slamming with elbows and knees until I could stomp a foot or shove him back into structure like the corner of a table or something, and then when he was trying to regain his composure I would have a split second to start punching as hard and fast as I could. It doesn't sound good, certainly don't look very good, but fighting is serious business. If one was to see me in a fight I am certain that they would not recognize it as WC, but I can assure you that I really don't know any other method of fighting except jiujitsu, I usually only use that when there is less chance of me getting beat up on.
I have no idea what lineage of WC to call mine other than by my own name, but it was called Hung Fa by my father. We were told not to let chi sao take over our WC, and now I know what he really meant. Chi Sao is a simple 2 man drill, can be a 3 man drill if you want, but it is only a way to develop the feel for using the hand techniques of WC, and when I see people actually competing in Chi Sao I come to understand why I was told that. I have pretty much learned when someone talks about full contact Wing Chun matches they are really talking about chi sao. I haven't done that in near 40 years.

[YouKnowWho]

To me, the definition of "clinch" is:

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist wrap,
- bear hug,
- elbow lock,
- mantis arms,
- hand behind the neck with fore-arm on the chest.

Do I miss anything"

[GlennR]

You probably should look at the Wikipedia site about clinch fighting instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinch_fighting


Actually the link at the bottom of this page:

http://www.global-training-report.com/clinch.htm

Is a really nice little essay on clinch fighting, with MT the main topic

[anerlich]

To me, the definition of "clinch" is:

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist wrap,
- bear hug,
- elbow lock,
- mantis arms,
- hand behind the neck with fore-arm on the chest.

Do I miss anything"

2 on 1, unless that's what you mean by "elbow lock"

[nasmedicine]

No. And yes. :D

agreed, it depends on the situation. However, IMHO, WC tends to avoid the clinch. In other words, "Less grabbing/clinching and more hitting". it's not to say that you can't hit from the clinch, but I don't think I have to spell it all out for everyone ;)

[YouKnowWho]

2 on 1, unless that's what you mean by "elbow lock"
You are right! That's "2 on 1". People may ask why do you want to use 2 hands to against 1? What do you do with your opponent's other free hand? There is a very important principle used here and that is to use one of your opponent's arm to jam his other arm. When your right hand grabs on your opponent's left wrist, and your left hand grabs on your opponent's right wrist, you use your right hand to guide his left arm to be "under" his right arm, and let his right arm to jam his left arm. You then free your right hand to apply "2 on 1". At that moment, your opponent's left arm will have no threaten to you.

[EternalSpring]

Just to throw my opinion and possible shed some light on this topic:

My sifu once actually showed us something he called a "Ving Tsun Clinch" although he said we dont like to use it often. It seems pretty similar to the muay thai clinch from when I compared it with a friend and the main purposes of the clinch my Sifu taught was to choke/cut of circulation in the neck using the bridge/kiu while pulling our opponent into kicks/knees. Another big part about it was breaking your opponents stance/"rooted-ness" to nullify or at least decrease any punches they may try to throw.

What's also interesting to mention is that my Sigong and his school went to China recently to share/exchange knowledge with Ving Tsun schools from our family as well as those that are from different lineages (Shaolin Ving Tsun, Kulo Village, etc). They took many videos and one specific Shaolin Ving Tsun school used something like "one handed clinches" where something they would biu or punch and if the attack was evaded then the hand would still shoot past the neck, form a hook, and pull the opponent in a way similar to the clinch. That school even had extra forms that trained this skill.

I guess like most things, it depends on the family/lineage. The cool thing is that since it's all Ving Tsun, I'm sure we can all incorporate it into our own methods in one way or another.

[Dragonzbane76]

shouldn't all "fighting" arts have a clinch answer? Shouldn't all arts study all ranges?

my 2 cents...:rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

shouldn't all "fighting" arts have a clinch answer? Shouldn't all arts study all ranges?

my 2 cents...:rolleyes:

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yes and yes.

joy

[trubblman]

Um, perhaps you don't understand what clinch fighting is.



You probably should look at the Wikipedia site about clinch fighting instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinch_fighting

I did read it a while back. In the first paragraph is the definition of clinch fighting: Clinch fighting (also referred to as clinch work) is the part of stand-up fighting where the combatants are grappling in a clinch, typically using clinch holds. And again by the very terms of the article, the answer is still the same, namely, VT is not clinch fighting. If anything it is anti-clinch fighting, using tan sau, bong sau, gum sau, huen sau, arm breaks, for example, to prevent the opponent's grabbing you.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE&feature=related

VT similarities to break out of thai clinch:

1st is YGKYM hips move in and posture as shown to shut down knees. Its common to block the knee with lan sao's but you open up your head as shown to elbows etc....

2nd is very similar to wu sao into the gap between the thai arms, then use the guys arm and raise elbow to lan sao to 'lever' the arms apart etc...its not strict vt lan but a lever nonetheless .
the rest
...pushing the face , palm / po pai ...to the same wu/lan spread arms to open up striking or what you will.

like he says in the beginning , I dont want to let clinching happen either ..but :D