Is It Wing Chun If There Is No Chi Sao?

[faxiapreta]

In another thread HumWCGuy said his lineage of WC did not do chi sao?

Can you have WC without doing chi sao?

[HumbleWCGuy]

If some would consider it to not be "true" WC, I am comfortable with that. I tend to refer to it as non-classical WC to differentiate.

[k gledhill]

In another thread HumWCGuy said his lineage of WC did not do chi sao?

Can you have WC without doing chi sao?

chi-sao is the soul of the vt. Force exchanges, facing with mindless arms at lightning speeds. Try facing a guy with 25+ years of vt chi sao versus none...

[HumbleWCGuy]

chi-sao is the soul of the vt. Force exchanges, facing with mindless arms at lightning speeds. Try facing a guy with 25+ years of vt chi sao versus none...
The few times that I have sparred with classical WC guys, I didn't notice anything special in their abilities compared to mine. There is nothing wrong with that style of training, it's just not how we do it.

[faxiapreta]

If some would consider it to not be "true" WC, I am comfortable with that. I tend to refer to it as non-classical WC to differentiate.

Which lineage is that? JKD?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In another thread HumWCGuy said his lineage of WC did not do chi sao?

Can you have WC without doing chi sao?

Of course, WC is NOT only chisao and no system is so weak as to be dependent on one type of training exercise.

[Frost]

Of course, WC is NOT only chisao and no system is so weak as to be dependent on one type of training exercise.

are you sure..........

[k gledhill]

The few times that I have sparred with classical WC guys, I didn't notice anything special in their abilities compared to mine. There is nothing wrong with that style of training, it's just not how we do it.

Its more about what your doing it for...which drastically changes the fighter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

are you sure..........

If by chisao you mean the training drill, yes I am sure that WC would still be WC without the drill.
The principles and attributes can be trained a different way.
Again, no system is so weak and inferiour as to be dependent on ONE training drill to define what it is.

[Frost]

If by chisao you mean the training drill, yes I am sure that WC would still be WC without the drill.
The principles and attributes can be trained a different way.
Again, no system is so weak and inferiour as to be dependent on ONE training drill to define what it is.
and yet someone on this very thread called it the soul of VT, sounds to me like they feel it cant be taken out and it wont survive if it was

[sanjuro_ronin]

and yet someone on this very thread called it the soul of VT, sounds to me like they feel it cant be taken out and it wont survive if it was

And Kevin is entitled to his opinion.
He may be wrong or he may be right.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Its more about what your doing it for...which drastically changes the fighter.

Even though we don't emphasize chi sao, early on when we sparred (intra school) it would devolve into chi sao like battles because the techniques are the techniques. The thing that I noticed is that resisting the urge to "play Wing Chun," with people raised my effectiveness.

It's my opinon that for Chi Sao to transfer to combat as it is sometimes done, someone has to agree to, "play Wing Chun." Now I don't want to generalize to every lineage or school because i have only experienced, JKD, VTM, Dr. Wu's guys out of Columbus?, and Unknown (Darrell Jordan's guy?).



Edit: I am certainly interested in your thoughts since you have such an opposing view point.

[WC1277]

To each his own, but I find it IMO next to impossible for someone to figure out how to connect to their opponents center(not their arms) without Chi Sao development which really is what WC is all about. Disruption of the opponents center while maintaining your own.

I've always been of the belief that there's two types of WC out there. One that is just Kung Fu utilizing arm techniques and attacks, really no different from any other style, and then there is one that utilizes structure where your only goal is to attack and "blocking" is only the result of the attack. The latter can't be developed to it's potential without Chi Sao.....

[Vajramusti]

A thread started by a troll. Don't feed the trolls.!!
JC

[k gledhill]

Even though we don't emphasize chi sao, early on when we sparred (intra school) it would devolve into chi sao like battles because the techniques are the techniques. The thing that I noticed is that resisting the urge to "play Wing Chun," with people raised my effectiveness.

It's my opinon that for Chi Sao to transfer to combat as it is sometimes done, someone has to agree to, "play Wing Chun." Now I don't want to generalize to every lineage or school because i have only experienced, JKD, VTM, Dr. Wu's guys out of Columbus?, and Unknown (Darrell Jordan's guy?).



Edit: I am certainly interested in your thoughts since you have such an opposing view point.


I understand why you could fight better when you didnt play chi-sao, you probably just tried to hit the guy right ?
we dont do chi-sao to fight...

[HumbleWCGuy]

I understand why you could fight better when you didnt play chi-sao, you probably just tried to hit the guy right ?
we dont do chi-sao to fight...

It's a little more than that. Remember we didn't do any chi sao. If you follow the WC principles to perfection, sparring will come out that way. It was more about moving beyond being basic.

[anerlich]

You can have WC without chi sao if you can have WC without forms, or without the wooden dummy.

Question of definition IMO.

[k gledhill]

It's a little more than that. Remember we didn't do any chi sao. If you follow the WC principles to perfection, sparring will come out that way. It was more about moving beyond being basic.

lost you there...anyway, show a clip time :D

[dirtyrat]

To each his own, but I find it IMO next to impossible for someone to figure out how to connect to their opponents center(not their arms) without Chi Sao development which really is what WC is all about. Disruption of the opponents center while maintaining your own.


You really don't need chi sao to learn this. chi sao can be a valuable tool but there are other methods that i feel are far more direct.

[Vajramusti]

You really don't need chi sao to learn this. chi sao can be a valuable tool but there are other methods that i feel are far more direct.
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Anerlich is correct... it's a "definitional" issue.

joy chaudhuri

PS Beware of the troll starting this thread!!

[dirtyrat]

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Anerlich is correct... it's a "definitional" issue.

joy chaudhuri

PS Beware of the troll starting this thread!!

understood ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

lost you there...anyway, show a clip time :D

Put another way, if two people throw a bunch of straights and try to occupy the center line with Wing Chun techniques it turns into a chi sao like battle "playing Wing Chun."

Once we all moved beyond that we became more effective. Chi sao skills seem to only work if the other person agrees to play the game.

[GlennR]

Put another way, if two people throw a bunch of wing straights and try to occupy the center line with Wing Chun techniques it turns into a chi sao like battle "playing Wing Chun."

Once we all moved beyond that we became more effective. Chi sao skills seem to only work if the other person agrees to play the game.

What range do you prefer to enagage Humble?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I feel funny hearing it called chi sao sparring. Being a simple drill that teaches the hand techniques proper, it can only be practiced as such between 2 persons trained in WC. The odds of you having to fight another WC man is so astromomically against you that you would have to seek them out. He would likely jump back and double his fists and come in windmilling. Ever try to chi sao someone like that? That is why WC gets laughed at. You get used to doing all that chi sao and you will attempt to use it in fighting. It teaches you to use the hand tools for fighting, and you learn how to apply them properly, but you can not apply it as a fighting tool in itself. It is probably best to use it as what it was designed for and then sort of move away from it.
You know, you might be able to out chi sao everyone on the block, but the first time you have a confrontation with a fist fighter you will have a rude awakening I fear. You can fight another WC man without doing chi sao. Simply stand off and come in at one another and act like you mean it. Forget about crossing arms and playing at it. You don't have to bust one another up, just act like you are.

[PalmStriker]

You can have WC without chi sao if you can have WC without forms, or without the wooden dummy.

Question of definition IMO. I can agree with this. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

What range do you prefer to enagage Humble?

That's an interesting question. I think. I use an odd style I think. I am 6'4'' and have very long legs but I have ridiculously short arms for my height. Optimally, I prefer to be at long range and kick or I like to clinch so I don't have to deal with trying to box with people who have a reach advantage of 2 or 3 inches. I am a pressure fighter which might seem odd given my height.

[YouKnowWho]

- Is it Taiji if there is no push hands?

- Is it SC if there is no grip fight?

When you train a style, there are something very special for that style. Only that style training method can help you to obtain that ability. If you skip that training stage, unless you can find something equivalent, otherwise you will not be able to develop that particular skill required by that system. Since most training method had been tested in the ancient time. It will be unlikely that you can find any better training method.

[k gledhill]

Put another way, if two people throw a bunch of wing straights and try to occupy the center line with Wing Chun techniques it turns into a chi sao like battle "playing Wing Chun."

Once we all moved beyond that we became more effective. Chi sao skills seem to only work if the other person agrees to play the game.

ahhh, thats not what I do, but I understand the post now.

[nasmedicine]

of course there is WC w/o Chi Sao. Chi Sao doesn't define WC, the core concepts and principles can being applied and take shape in any form. Also, I'm sure there are many differing opinions on what Chi Sao is and how it is used for training/fighting. But that's a discussion that would only lead to massive disagreement and time wasted typing :cool: