Kung fu fighting

[Crosshandz]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. :p Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

[bawang]

mma should have mma kata. then it becomes legitma.

[David Jamieson]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. :p Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

I hear this.

San Shou is good, but it could be better.

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

It's like when someone says do you like watching golf?
I say, no, but I enjoy playing it.

UFC style mma is like this. All too often teh fights are too short or too protracted with the man hugs. This means for every 20 fights, you get to see 1 that's actually not a bad fight.

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

[Crosshandz]

mma should have mma kata. then it becomes legitma.

I see what you did there. ;)

But no I'm not saying Kung fu competitions are not legit because they're not MMA. I'm saying that there are lots of skills in Kung fu made difficult to impossible to test out in competition because of the rules.

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan. There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves. This robs a serious Taijiquan student the chance to test how to apply these things in a real life situation. It would be like asking a wrestler to fight under K-1 rules.

[bawang]

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan.

lol noe
fgdfgdg

There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves.

the gloves hinder you from gently carressing your opponents forearm

[SPJ]

rules are actually more or less the same.

1. point sparring, you punch and kick and get points

just like karate/kumite or tae kwan do.

KO is allowed.

somehow, the wu lin da hui in PR china, there is no head shot. so KO is not possible.

there is a heavy chest protector under the garment,

so the rule sets favor throw. since no KO.

2. full contact

grappling and throws are possible.

currently

there are san shou rules and kuo shu rules in US.

I think GLW knows more.

---

[David Jamieson]

Tai chi chuan needs a serious revisit to take it out of the hands of soft heads and give it back to wrestlers and takedown artists as intended.

right now it's fluff. It's been ruined by years of wimps, weakness.

A martial art usurped by the meek and made weaker.

It's a weird thing.

Mind you, original Chen style looks like shaolin a lot. :)

qigong for health shouldn't be a ripped off martial art such as taichi has become.

[YouKnowWho]

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan. There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves.
When you have gloves on, you cannot pull your opponent. Your monster grip will become useless. That's definite a draw back.

When you have glove on, insted of using your hand to grab, you will use your arm to wrap. When you have developed the arm wrapping ability, you will find out that without gloves, your skill can be performed much better.

To change from non-gloves environment to gloves environment, it's like to change from gi environment to no-gi environment, it will take some time to feel comfortable wth. After you have pasted that period of time, you will get benefit for the rest of your life. The reason is simple. If you can fight with only 70% of your ability with gloves, you will be able to fight 100% of your ability without gloves.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. :p Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

You have to understand that San Shou tournaments and competitions are a minority when it comes to TCMA tournaments. For sparring competions it is normally point style or continuous sparring with very limited techniques allowed. You will find this much more than you will full contact San Shou. Also, I remember seeing a tournament in Wisconsin online that did Lei Tai matches with MMA style gloves and the face cages, (which suck) but that I felt was a step in the right direction.

[SPJ]

Tai chi chuan needs a serious revisit to take it out of the hands of soft heads and give it back to wrestlers and takedown artists as intended.

right now it's fluff. It's been ruined by years of wimps, weakness.

A martial art usurped by the meek and made weaker.

It's a weird thing.

Mind you, original Chen style looks like shaolin a lot. :)

qigong for health shouldn't be a ripped off martial art such as taichi has become.

some blamed yang cheng fu

or even yang lu chan.

:eek:

[bawang]

helmets and glvoes are in modern combat sports for purely political reasons. gloves make it look safe.

in muay thai you can elbow and knee and shin kick, but wear gloves. this is rediculous. but gloves make mauy thai look safe and respectable.

[David Jamieson]

Bawang - remove your racial charged comments please and discontinue with that. It's inflammatory and does nothing for the forum or the content.

It's not cool.

[Crosshandz]

rules are actually more or less the same.

1. point sparring, you punch and kick and get points

just like karate/kumite or tae kwan do.

KO is allowed.

somehow, the wu lin da hui in PR china, there is no head shot. so KO is not possible.

there is a heavy chest protector under the garment,

so the rule sets favor throw. since no KO.

2. full contact

grappling and throws are possible.

currently

there are san shou rules and kuo shu rules in US.

I think GLW knows more.

---

I'm not in the US so I can't really make an informed comment on what goes on there. From what I have seen of grappling in full contact Kung fu tournaments it would be impossible to repeat what Su Dong Chen shows here (http://youtu.be/OKGYgxaV1PE) with kickboxing gloves on.

Its probably generally unfeasible to repeat much of what Su Dong Chen does but you get my point. :P

[SPJ]

in early 1980s. in taiwan

they used a pair of white gloves

to prevent nail pinching or piercing

also no head shots

favored throws.

[YouKnowWho]

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan.
If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on. Here is 2 clips that throws are perform with gloves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVXU4as828

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblrR6vU6p4

[David Jamieson]

If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on.

In 1982 I was introduced to a fellow who taught "combat tai chi"

It was inessence a remodeling of the way tai chi was used.

full contact, full force pulls, throws, pushes, grabs, takedowns...pretty cool stuff.

since then, i don't give credo to tai chi as health exercises much, but i can respect it as any exercise is better than none and I see improvement in mobility with those seniors I know who have undertaken practice of it.

qigong is as good as tai chi in that respect.

[bawang]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.



full contact, full force pulls, throws, pushes, grabs, takedowns...pretty cool stuff.



even david ross says this, but the truth is taijiquan is mostly punching. as a branch of the changquan and hongquan systems it strictly teaches techniques by form and 90% of techniques are punching and kicking

[David Jamieson]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.

In all fairness, there is little in the way of fist strikes and furthermore, there is in most every tai chi school NO cross training at all!

No mitts, no bags, no application training, no sparring full on or otherwise, no wrestling nothing, just the set, whichever set is being taught.

It is the saddest state of all the traditional chinese martial arts.

Like a eunuch at a nymphomaniac convention.

[Crosshandz]

When you have gloves on, you cannot pull your opponent. Your monster grip will become useless. That's definite a draw back.

When you have glove on, insted of using your hand to grab, you will use your arm to wrap. When you have developed the arm wrapping ability, you will find out that without gloves, your skill can be performed much better.

To change from non-gloves environment to gloves environment, it's like to change from gi environment to no-gi environment, it will take some time to feel comfortable wth. After you have pasted that period of time, you will get benefit for the rest of your life. The reason is simple. If you can fight with only 70% of your ability with gloves, you will be able to fight 100% of your ability without gloves.

I see your point and given your ample experience in throwing I won't dispute the logic there. However, whilst I agree that you can create workarounds to pull of many of the techniques the size of the glove itself would seem to become an obstacle when trying to do certain things and then there are techniques such as this Luo Dexiu hip toss (http://youtu.be/JH2g5ZOgrEo) that would remain unfeasible. Yes, hip toss can still be done with arms around the body but that position that he uses it from is effectively a no-go area cos of the glove.

[faxiapreta]

There's this thing called MMA.

It's where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.

[Crosshandz]

If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on. Here is 2 clips that throws are perform with gloves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVXU4as828

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblrR6vU6p4

Cool techniques. I'm not a Taiji guy I was just using Taiji as an example. My own practice is Songshan Shaolin which does contain a lot of Taiji apps though. I do understand there are ways to do the techniques with gloves on but I just think it'd be a better aid to training to use the MMA glove and MMA rules.

[bawang]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.

[Crosshandz]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.

:p

Gotta love it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's this thing called MMA.

It's where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.

Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.

[bawang]

Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.

TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.

kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo

[YouKnowWho]

this Luo Dexiu hip toss (http://youtu.be/JH2g5ZOgrEo)

The move "手别(Shou Bie) - hand block" should have no problem to perform with gloves if you can obtain that "leading arm control" contact point. With gloves on, the proper contact point is much harder to obtain.

[David Jamieson]

Vale Tudo?

Where does that happen nowadays?

Certainly not in north america.

As for MMA, that's mma, it's not the same as tcma training.

there's room for adoption from mma I agree, but tryin to fit tcma into that mold is a waste of effort time and energy.

they are two completely different focuses.

an apple is a fruit
an orange is a fruit
they are both tasty tasty fruit.
they are completely different despite the same idea that they are fruit.

The only similarity in mma and any other martial art is that it is martial.

Even here they take a lot of the danger out of MT for instance. No elbows. Know why? Too dangerous!

time limits, weight restrictions etc are all there to ensure less injury occurs. It is fairly safe over all.

there is a component of guys who seem to think that they being punched in the face automatically has given them some kind of martial wisdom. And it has! But there are a lot of deluded egotists out there who will eventually come to know the error of their ways. :)

Til then, it's only my problem when they break the Ts&Cs here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.

kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo

Well. many TMA have the view of the MMA environment that they get from the TV or from MMA oriented sites that, well, suck.
Many TMA HERE for example get their view of the MMA environment from the likes of people here that advocate MMA over TMA.
Enough said eh?

[YouKnowWho]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.
In most of the San Shou fight, the MMA gloves is still considered not safe enough. In a state such as Texas that all full contact fight has to be controlled by the boxing organization, the 16 oz boxing gloves are required.

[Ray Pina]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. :p Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

Good topic. Good question.

I think Kung FU could keep the gloves and adapt the rules. Lots of throws can be pulled off with boxing gloves. Or get amateur MMA gloves that are better padded and incorporate head gear, even closed head gear. Chest gear. Anything to get people playing more lively.

If you don't want to focus too much on ground, allow perhaps a 10 count of action after someone goes down. More points for takedowns. More points yet for takedown with follow through control. Control the position.

This would be a good start. After three years of this then a full on MMA-like contest could be held. No head gear. Continuous fighting for X minute rounds.

[Ray Pina]

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

We mock what we don't understand.



I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

[MightyB]

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw)

[ginosifu]

Some 20 years ago I was trying to make standardized rules for Kung Fu competition. My Sifu told me it would never work. Too many old school CMA (I am talking about the generation of Sifu above me) have ego problems and will not conform to any changes to their style.

We have what is called "Continuous Sparring", it's not perfect and it needs some more guidance but it's all we have now. You fight with what you got, no calling for points. 3-5 judges make a call at the end of the bout for winner.

What can we add on to this to make it better.

We fight on what ever floor is available (Carpet, Wood etc).

All techniques allowed except groin and bloodying the face (Draw blood and your out).

Broom sweeps are allowed.

What else?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.



Agreed
-------

[YouKnowWho]

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

In the begenning, I didn't like the 3 seconds rule. One of my students in Baltimore tournament did a beautiful "leg twist" throw. Since it was done between 3 - 5 second, her throw didn't count. Later on I realize that the 3 seconds rule may be the only way that doesn't turn a San Shou match into a wrestling match.


UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.
It's just like the 3 seconds rule in San Shou. If you can't throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throwing skill is not good enough. If you can't put an arm bar on your opponent with in certain amout of time, your ground skill is not good enough.

In the real life we have to finish the fight ASAP before the cops come. We just don't have all the time in the world. It's better to train for "time efficiency" IMO. If you love a girl, you should marry her. A beautiful girl will not wait 10 years for you. That's just the reality.

[ginosifu]

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw)

Mostly because we are kung fu and a lot of their rule sets are not geared for kung fu fighting. This is why my school does not go to karate point sparring competitions because the rules are geared for them.... we do not point spar. So we need to create rule sets that are emphasizing CMA.

[Taixuquan99]

We mock what we don't understand.


I've heard plenty of experienced ground fighters say the same thing. I've also heard plenty of judo teachers say the same thing about watching two experienced judoka go at it. Far more interesting to experience than to watch.

[MightyB]

Mostly because we are kung fu and a lot of their rule sets are not geared for kung fu fighting. This is why my school does not go to karate point sparring competitions because the rules are geared for them.... we do not point spar. So we need to create rule sets that are emphasizing CMA.

It's not karate - it's International Sport Jiu Jitsu and it's pretty open. It's basically everything that's been described in this thread. Light weight gloves, limited padding, full contact, take downs and limited ground fighting.

[donjitsu2]

It's not karate - it's International Sport Jiu Jitsu and it's pretty open. It's basically everything that's been described in this thread. Light weight gloves, limited padding, full contact, take downs and limited ground fighting.

You're right, but the tournaments are few and far between.

I'm actually kind of ****ed. There was an event at the Battle of Atlanta very recently and I missed it because I wasn't paying attention to BoA's news. sucks.

[YouKnowWho]

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw)
Sometime the rules in not in favor to the style that you train.

If a wrestler comes to a SC tournament, that wrestler will have no chance. The reason is simple. If any 2 points of your body besides your feet touch the ground, you lose that round. Many wrestlers like to shoot in at your legs so low that it's not hard to make their body to touch to the ground before they reach to your leg.

Back in the 70th, I hated the "no face contack" tournament. Sometime your opponent just used his head to meet your punch. If you could't pull your punch back fast enough and if your fist touched your opponent's face, you would be dis-qualified.

[David Jamieson]

We mock what we don't understand. I do understand it Ray. Try to read the context I placed directly beneath that statement instead opf quoting it out of context and then taking a stance as if I was a dummy or something. Because that is goofy. IT"S BORING TO WATCH THAT. NOt necessarily boring to do it as stated.




I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got. It's a competition Ray, not some ego exercise place for your pent up aggression. lol "liking to hurt" is an issue. Having to hurt and being able to do so, is more matter of fact and something I personally would find easier to get behind.


There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish. It's a sport and to it's players it is a beautiful thing.

Put knives in their hands now. It's still a fight right? :p yes, you're right, sport fighting is fun and great to watch. still, it's not kung fu although a lot of it's in there.

[Northwind]

You're right, but the tournaments are few and far between.

I'm actually kind of ****ed. There was an event at the Battle of Atlanta very recently and I missed it because I wasn't paying attention to BoA's news. sucks.

I went. To be honest, you didn't miss much.

[Northwind]

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0OprCc07Cw)

Gotta say, I actually enjoyed that clip very much.

[MightyB]

Combat Sambo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDLc1rERu4M) has an interesting rule set. Again - why re-invent the wheel when you can find organizations already doing what we're talking about here?

[Crosshandz]

Combat Sambo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDLc1rERu4M) has an interesting rule set. Again - why re-invent the wheel when you can find organizations already doing what we're talking about here?

2:12 priceless. ;)

[aussie1981]

My BSCLF sifu's Vince and George fought in the old South East Asia comp, fingerless gloves and anything goes except shot to the groin and ground fighting. Vince came second, phenonemal fighter.

[ginosifu]

Combat Sambo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDLc1rERu4M) has an interesting rule set. Again - why re-invent the wheel when you can find organizations already doing what we're talking about here?

These are all fine rule sets, however how many CMA school will be able to attend any of these events? Do we steal their rule sets and just apply them to CMA tourneys? I don't mind using other peoples ideas that work well, but they have to be able to modify it to meet the needs of CMA players.

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Take these ideas and see what we can do to adjust any ruleset;

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?

Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniquess?

Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Do we allow ground fighting at all?

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

Mooying started a thread like this on the Mantis forum. My thought was basically use San Shou rules except change to the MMA glove and weight key Mantis techniques higher in points so you'd reward a guy for using the concepts he trains. These would be if he snags with a diu sau and strikes the guy - it should count more than just a jab... or if he pulls of an Ou Lou Choi - you get the drift. That works for Mantis. As far as an open... I'd borrow the Sport Jiu Jitsu rules and just say they're kung fu. The only area that it's probably lacking is in the cup choi style strikes that some of the southern styles use.



These are all fine rule sets, however how many CMA school will be able to attend any of these events? Do we steal their rule sets and just apply them to CMA tourneys? I don't mind using other peoples ideas that work well, but they have to be able to modify it to meet the needs of CMA players.

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Take these ideas and see what we can do to adjust any ruleset;

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?

Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniquess?

Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Do we allow ground fighting at all?

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

We mock what we don't understand.



I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

Yeah, I remember the beautiful drama of Ken dry humping Royce for 30 min.
That loving moment still brings tears to my eyes.

[Ray Pina]

I remember seeing a tournament in Wisconsin online that did Lei Tai matches with MMA style gloves and the face cages, (which suck) but that I felt was a step in the right direction.

I used to get that a lot about the caged masks when I was teaching.... when I informed them they didn't need to where the mask, that it was only an option, then they didn't suck so bad and wanted to keep them on.

[ginosifu]

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

It's like when someone says do you like watching golf?
I say, no, but I enjoy playing it.

UFC style mma is like this. All too often teh fights are too short or too protracted with the man hugs. This means for every 20 fights, you get to see 1 that's actually not a bad fight.

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.



We mock what we don't understand. I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

Ray... I would to state that this not a mock on MMA. I have 2 older gentleman that I teach Tai Chi to. They have NO martial backround and have never sparred in their life. Both came up to me on several occasions and asked:

"Sifu, have you ever watched that Spike channel cage fighting stuff?" Of course I said yes. "What is it?" I replied it is a type of full contact fighting. "Is there any style to it, cause it looks like they a just brawling, no skill, no style just brawling?" "It was kind of boring.... they just rolled around in their underwear, laying on the ground with no technique"

These statements come from many who are not in the martial arts and find UFC fights boring. Myself, I can see skill, positioning, timing etc etc, but I also get bored watching 2 guys laying there for 5 minutes doing nothing but laying on each other.

DJ is not mocking MMA but making a valid point. If kung fu can make a rule set that meets the needs of CMA players, I would like to see limited ground fighting.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

In the begenning, I didn't like the 3 seconds rule. One of my students in Baltimore tournament did a beautiful "leg twist" throw. Since it was done between 3 - 5 second, her throw didn't count. Later on I realize that the 3 seconds rule may be the only way that doesn't turn a San Shou match into a wrestling match.


It's just like the 3 seconds rule in San Shou. If you can't throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throwing skill is not good enough. If you can't put an arm bar on your opponent with in certain amout of time, your ground skill is not good enough.

In the real life we have to finish the fight ASAP before the cops come. We just don't have all the time in the world. It's better to train for "time efficiency" IMO. If you love a girl, you should marry her. A beautiful girl will not wait 10 years for you. That's just the reality.

The best wrestlers in the world do not get throws in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

The best ground fighters in the world do not get submissions in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

Your statement is the equivalent to saying if a boxer cannot get a KO in under 3 seconds, his skill is not good enough.

When you limit your ruleset to 3 seconds, you limit the skills your fighters will be able to develop.

[faxiapreta]

Myself, I can see skill, positioning, timing etc etc, but I also get bored watching 2 guys laying there for 5 minutes doing nothing but laying on each other.

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

[MightyB]

The best wrestlers in the world do not get throws in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

The best ground fighters in the world do not get submissions in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

Your statement is the equivalent to saying if a boxer cannot get a KO in under 3 seconds, his skill is not good enough.

When you limit your ruleset to 3 seconds, you limit the skills your fighters will be able to develop.

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.

Look at the 1:30 mark in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfSzU8QIbY)

Limited ground fighting, spectacular matches.

[Taixuquan99]

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Tournament going sifus whose students fight consistently, possibly. However, sometimes it's better to design an idea first and then determine, from the opinions of other qualified people, the parts of the idea that need selling, that need tweaking, and that don't further the goals that drive the idea, ime.

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?[/quote]

With throws allowed AND real full contact, I suspect that using a regular floor will either discourage people from throwing or lead to injuries that will make the tourney controversial or unpopular. If we're already using gloves, I think mats are also appropriate.


Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

I say not at all. First, there's nothing un-kungfu like about a clinch, and second, if someone can't break it, nor get a throw or takedown, one will once someone gets tired and makes a mistake.


Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

See my comments on mats, and, if we're trying to make a ruleset for kung fu, how can we rule out shuai?


Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniques?

This is a tough one. Do we encourage moves that cannot necessarily be fully carried through, but are relevant towards hurting, or stick only with bread and butter moves of the more concussive, but not necessarily crippling, variety? I don't know the answer to this one. On the one hand, practicing at least getting the position on a crippling move is important in kung fu, so I can see an argument for this. Conversely, sticking to what can be fully carried out without having to assume the results(because they are obvious) has its merits, but, when you don't include highly dangerous techniques, do you also embolden fighters to fight in a way, and pursue approaches that, were dangerous techniques present, they would be unwise to do?

Tough one. Extra points for certain techniques? Extra points and separate upon their execution(to avoid the "I just ignored the fact that you totally took leg positioin and could have locked out my knee except for your kindness, and punched you in a way that could never have happened had you carried through)? Or just stick to less dangerous techs?


Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Facial contact, too many kung fu techniques are ruled out by the other option, if we limit it so, we may as well just stick with the other rulesets out there, they're no more limited in many cases than not allowing facial contact.


Do we allow ground fighting at all?

Allow applying typical leg takedowns, etc, as used from the floor in many kung fu styles. If wanted, later introduce open divisions for striking, open divisions for all ranges, etc.

[David Jamieson]

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

Please don't get going with personal snipes.
I will delete them.

I have little tolerance for it.

So, know that.

thanks for your co-operation

[faxiapreta]

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.

Look at the 1:30 mark in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfSzU8QIbY)

Limited ground fighting, spectacular matches.

Umm... that's a highlight clip where the best and most exciting techniques are taken out and emphasized.

Go to a judo tourney and what you will normally see is a 85% of the time spent jockeying for positional and grip dominance to set up the throws.

[faxiapreta]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

Are you seriously going to sit there and say that the UFC and other large MMA venues don't have guys that lay and pray?? Come on man, I know you are a hardcore MMA nutrider, but take the blinders off. When someone is constantly moving for dominant position and throwing strikes and trying for submissions it's one thing, but I still see plenty of guys, especially in the guard, who get lazy and throw just enough to keep from getting the fight stood back up to run the clock down and squeak out a victory.

[ginosifu]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

Just a place for kung fu fighters to express their style. Not interested in money, not interested in audience, not interested in creating the "Best Fighters" only a place for CMA people to test their skills and use what they were taught.

ginosifu

[Taixuquan99]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

How many full contact rulesets have you developed?

[David Jamieson]

Go to a judo tourney and what you will normally see is a 85% of the time spent jockeying for positional and grip dominance to set up the throws.

Actually, I disagree with this as I do attend judo tourneys having a family member who is ranked in Ontario and Quebec and goes t matches regularly.

Matches are often lightening fast with an entry a grab a throw and that's that. A couple of rounds of that an don with the next..

Judo tourneys move real quickly as do the judoka who participate. I''d say they spend 85% of their time waiting for their match. lol

Once they are there, it's a very quick gotcha after gotcha for the most part.

Hip toss rules the day at judo tourney by the way. :p

[Ray Pina]

I've heard plenty of experienced ground fighters say the same thing. I've also heard plenty of judo teachers say the same thing about watching two experienced judoka go at it. Far more interesting to experience than to watch.

Agreed. That's why I don't watch soccer, golf, baseball. But to tune into an MMA program and than complain about having to watch grappling:confused: Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws:confused:

There's a place for just punching: boxing.

[pateticorecords]

Good topic. Good question.

I think Kung FU could keep the gloves and adapt the rules. Lots of throws can be pulled off with boxing gloves. Or get amateur MMA gloves that are better padded and incorporate head gear, even closed head gear. Chest gear. Anything to get people playing more lively.

If you don't want to focus too much on ground, allow perhaps a 10 count of action after someone goes down. More points for takedowns. More points yet for takedown with follow through control. Control the position.

This would be a good start. After three years of this then a full on MMA-like contest could be held. No head gear. Continuous fighting for X minute rounds.

I am with Ray on this one.

Back in the 80s some full contact fighting allowed throws, single strikes while on the ground (to complete a technique), controlling opponents while on the ground, etc. the difference was that there was no ground and pound; normally in 3-5 minute continuous sparring (points calculated by techniques and strikes) setting using kendo/jkd gloves.

I'd say start trying it out again and adding some ground/submission both in a full contact setting and in others with lighter contact to get people acclimated or for those that like to do this but can't go full blast because of other reasons...

[Ray Pina]

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring.

Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft.

If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

[faxiapreta]

And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

You don't need that if you hold smokers that charge no admission fees.

[David Jamieson]

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring. Point sparring? that's right up there with musical kata karate tournaments. All the kung fu schools that are owned by friends of mine do san shou for their competitive aspect. I know a few school owners personally and a couple of more through the internet. None of them point spar outside of little kids programs if at all. Can't agree with your assessment on that front.


Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft. You're being nothing but judgmental. YOu don't know the guy, saw him in passing and make all sorts of passive aggressive remarks about his accomplishment at a tournament? Wouldn't you be surprised if he could drop you like a bad habit?


If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

Why do they have to be different and define themselves as "x". Why should Traditional CHinese Martial Arts not have an option of creating a rule set that they wan for their sportive aspect of their art forms?

I think san shou is good, but like I said, I think the option to G&P should be there with break up rules for when the protracted man hugging stuff starts and I really don't care about bjj positioning that is going on, it is not an acceptable or enjoyable thing for me to watch. I like fast pace, hard hitting, all out fights that display skill. Not sloppy brawling, a couple of toe to toe slugs and then an extended hug followed by a choke. That is boring. It's the primary reason I simply stopped watching UFC. It became dull.

Other guys are free to like it all they want, I'd like to see something for Kung Fu specifically that goes beyond san shou which is to me a cheapafied version of muay Thai and most of the coaches of it look to Muay Thai for their training methods anyway.

[ginosifu]

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring.

Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft.

If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

First off, we don't point spar. Continuous sparring is what it is supposed to be. However, I agree with you on the fact that it is a joke nowadays. I was Judging a tournament where the Black Belt Division was a joke, the guy who took first had no clue how to really fight.

That's why this thread interests me. Why do we have to resort to San Shou (I fought in San Shou for many years). I like the idea of smaller mma style gloves, but would like to see limited clinching, limited or no ground fighting at all. San Shou limits the amount of grabbing techniques and takes away from many styles. Even though I like San Shou, I would like to see something different.

ginosifu

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have to understand that San Shou tournaments and competitions are a minority when it comes to TCMA tournaments. For sparring competions it is normally point style or continuous sparring with very limited techniques allowed. You will find this much more than you will full contact San Shou. Also, I remember seeing a tournament in Wisconsin online that did Lei Tai matches with MMA style gloves and the face cages, (which suck) but that I felt was a step in the right direction.

That is Kuo Shou. They have been doing that since before MMA existed. I have always wondered why THAT format has not surpassed San Shou.

You could easily add a Pro version of that format where there are no face cages, they can operate under more open rules, and keep things as they are for the amateurs. It would make a nice progression from beginner to pro, to MMA big leagues for Kung Fu.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.


even david ross says this, but the truth is taijiquan is mostly punching. as a branch of the changquan and hongquan systems it strictly teaches techniques by form and 90% of techniques are punching and kicking

I see more take down in Taiji, than striking. Just look at the forms, it is like 80% take downs. Taiji is internal Shui Jaio.

[MightyB]

Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws:confused:

if this happens at a Judo tourney

Referee, "Shido... stalling - one more and you're disqualified".
------
Then at a

BJJ tourney after 4 minutes of a lot of nothing - what makes it worse is that a guard pull initiated the ground fight.

Referee yawns (muttering to himself) "hope no one saw me yawning."
:)

Just messing with ya Ray - but like others have said, playing the games are a lot more fun than watching.

But I'd limit groundfighting in a kung fu tourney. It has its place, just not on the lei tai.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

First off, we don't point spar. Continuous sparring is what it is supposed to be. However, I agree with you on the fact that it is a joke nowadays. I was Judging a tournament where the Black Belt Division was a joke, the guy who took first had no clue how to really fight.

That's why this thread interests me. Why do we have to resort to San Shou (I fought in San Shou for many years). I like the idea of smaller mma style gloves, but would like to see limited clinching, limited or no ground fighting at all. San Shou limits the amount of grabbing techniques and takes away from many styles. Even though I like San Shou, I would like to see something different.

ginosifu

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-Sports-MMA-Safety-Sparring-Gloves/productinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

[ginosifu]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-Sports-MMA-Safety-Sparring-Gloves/productinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

I will run this by him, however we have been battling the state with regulations and liability. the Ohio Athletic Commission is trying to take over all MA and force everyone to use their rule sets and use their Doctors and their Insurance etc.
ginosifu

ps. I like your rule set, It allows for kung fu to be kung fu

[MightyB]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-Sports-MMA-Safety-Sparring-Gloves/productinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

Good rule set. That'll do. Consensus reached - meeting adjourned. Good job gentlemen. Now let's settle this budget crisis...

[YouKnowWho]

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.
Agree! This will encourage people to

- move in,
- apply their throw, if fail,
- move back, and
- wait for next chance.

This is the "fast hands wrestling" spirit.

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on. This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch. In traditional Chinese wrestling rule, the referee will stop both fighters and start them all over again.

Some new Chinese wrestling rules will give 3 points for an overhead throw, 2 point for a throw remain standing, and 1 point for a throw that lose balance. The new rule also encourage better skill development.

Since pull guard will make your body to touch to the ground and lose that round first, both pull guard and jump guard are not encouraged in the Chinese wrestling rules. This will force people to develop their throwing skill instead of taking the short cut.

[faxiapreta]

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on.

It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.



This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch.

If you make the rules for what is "boring" vs. "non-boring", you will sacrifice the development of the fighters' abilities.

[MightyB]

It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.




If you make the rules for what is "boring" vs. "non-boring", you will sacrifice the development of the fighters' abilities.

Actually it doesn't... you're wrong on this - basically there's been a movement for what are called "Tachi Waza" tournaments in Judo to foster skill development and eliminate bad habits. Here's a partial rule summary from a recent tournament in Lima Ohio:


Please Take The Time To Read And Understand The Following
We are modeling this event after developmental tournaments that are offered in some areas in Europe and one presented in the USA by Mr. Jim Hrbek and held in Texas. The format is specifically designed to get people LOTS of Judo and LOTS of fights. In ALL cases, every division will be a round robin division. No division will have more than eight participants. In a division of three you would have two fights, in a division of eight, you would have seven fights.

In addition to the goal of getting a lot of fights, the aim of a standing or tachi-waza tournament is to foster and aid in developing more throwing techniques. There should not be significant emphasis on penalties, however, the potential for a normal penalty during a match will weigh in the final decision of a match. Emphasis is on getting down to business and scoring with throws. COME WITH INTENTIONS TO THROW YOUR OPPONENT. To that end, all matches will be ONE minute. In case of no score, there will NOT be a Golden Score but a referees’ decision instead.

There is NO mat-work in this format. When competitors go to the mat, they will stand back up. Stalling will take away any earned point.

Since these events allow only a short time to win decisively, they generate a lot of excitement and are a lot of fun in addition to the challenges.

Elimination: ALL divisions will be held in the Round Robin format. That will allow 10 points for an ippon win, 7 for a wazaari, 5 for a yuko and 1 for a decision. At the conclusion of the round robin, the winner will be the person with the most wins. In case of a tie, the winner will be the person with the most points. In case of a continued tie between two individuals, the winner of the head-to-head match will be the winner. In case of tie among three or more, the tied persons will fight another full round robin among themselves.

RULES of the matches:
Attire
Judo gi of legal size. Women need a white T-shirt or white leotard.
Must have your own White & Blue Belts
All competitors must bring and wear footwear when not on the mat
Duration: All matches are ONE minute.

Submissions
➢ There will be NO chokes or armbars in any division (this includes standing chokes or armbars.
Penalties
➢ No score will be awarded for illegal techniques.
➢ Leg grabbing clarification: Grabbing and touching of the leg will NOT constitute a disqualification. The offender will receive a warning on the first offense. A penalty would be awarded for additional actions. In the event of a tie, the leg grab will weigh in the final decision.

Additional Rules
➢ Mat Area will be smaller than the IJF guidelines in order to help aid play within the limited amount of time. Safety areas are provided according to regulation.
➢ Electronic Scoreboards will be used
➢ IJF Medical Rules prior to 2003 for Juniors and Masters
➢ IJF Medical Rules will be used for Seniors
➢ Players must report on time or they will lose their match

[David Jamieson]

if this happens at a Judo tourney

Referee, "Shido... stalling - one more and you're disqualified".


true. and quickly, but lack of aggression and not entering loses you points in boxing as well and in kick boxing.

I think in ufc you actually get points for merely holding the centre of the ring as well.

[Southwind]

In the 1970's kung fu schools did not associate with karate and had their own events. The fighting in the kung fu events was always full contact. Wai Hong and the Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation sponsored events. So did Jow Gar Dean Chin in washington DC. Fighters like Paul Vizzio and Zab Judah's father began in these events

The acceptance of kung fu in the main stream meant they went to karate tourments and did the pont sparring. Worst thing to happen to kung fu

[ginosifu]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I spoke with John today about it and he was into it but a bit cautious. Like I said before Liability stuff is bad news here. Insurance comapnies won't insure certain types of events and if they do it's an arm and a leg to cover any events that house "Full Contact". He stated if we could hammer out some of these issues, he would be willing to pay the extra amount for insurance:

Smaller gloves mean more finger related injuries; Scratches, accidental eys pokes, hyper extended and broken fingers. Maybe he was thinking along the kuo shou lines with the face shield...?

Flooring: any grappling or ground work would means getting extra wrestling mats. BTW wresling mats new go for $5000 - $6000 + shipping. The new style puzzle mats would probably be about $2000 + Shipping. (What this boils down to is: If no one comes to his tournament and he gets all this stuff he would be kinda screwed. So he would need everyones participation)

Clinching would have to be limited. I am guessing like San Shou - 3-5 seconds and break them. With smaller gloves.. peeps will start throw uppercuts and haymakers and knees and elbows leading into more injuries.

I am not sure about ground, I dont think 30 seconds is to bad. He did not have an issue with the ground, He just stated if they ground why not mma?

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Agree! This will encourage people to
- move in,
- apply their throw, if fail,
- move back, and
- wait for next chance.

This is the "fast hands wrestling" spirit.

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on. This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch. In traditional Chinese wrestling rule, the referee will stop both fighters and start them all over again.

Some new Chinese wrestling rules will give 3 points for an overhead throw, 2 point for a throw remain standing, and 1 point for a throw that lose balance. The new rule also encourage better skill development.

Since pull guard will make your body to touch to the ground and lose that round first, both pull guard and jump guard are not encouraged in the Chinese wrestling rules. This will force people to develop their throwing skill instead of taking the short cut.

I agree with this approach as well. This is the way I was taught SC. My teacher told me stories of Master Chang, that if he "Touched someone.... they were thrown immediately".

When I fought in Beijing... I fought the Coach. His Name was Tien... man he was fast.. everytime he touched someone... he immediateley threw them. I am not talking wait 2 or 3 seconds and throw, I am talking during his enter he had already started his throw and by the time he actually touched them, they were flying in the air. Just to let you know... he threw me like that too. However, I did get my infamous Knee Seizing on him Once!


It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.

Counter fighting does not neccessarily mean skill. Just because you wait for someone to make a mistake does not mean skill on your part. It means they messed up and you took advantage. Granted I will say people do fight like this and it does work for some people. I remember times when I was really tired and just clinched and hoped for my opponent to make a mistake. It does happen but I would not consider it a good thing to practice doing.

Generally skillful stuff looks good. People go oughhh ahhhhhh in the crowd. People would cheer loudly everytime I 3 pointed someone. No one cheered when I clinched the whole last round and beat a guy 1 to 0.

ginosifu

[PalmStriker]

Agreed. That's why I don't watch soccer, golf, baseball. But to tune into an MMA program and than complain about having to watch grappling:confused: Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws:confused:

There's a place for just punching: boxing. Place for just wrestling, SUMO. :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I spoke with John today about it and he was into it but a bit cautious. Like I said before Liability stuff is bad news here. Insurance comapnies won't insure certain types of events and if they do it's an arm and a leg to cover any events that house "Full Contact". He stated if we could hammer out some of these issues, he would be willing to pay the extra amount for insurance:

Smaller gloves mean more finger related injuries; Scratches, accidental eys pokes, hyper extended and broken fingers. Maybe he was thinking along the kuo shou lines with the face shield...?

Flooring: any grappling or ground work would means getting extra wrestling mats. BTW wresling mats new go for $5000 - $6000 + shipping. The new style puzzle mats would probably be about $2000 + Shipping. (What this boils down to is: If no one comes to his tournament and he gets all this stuff he would be kinda screwed. So he would need everyones participation)

Clinching would have to be limited. I am guessing like San Shou - 3-5 seconds and break them. With smaller gloves.. peeps will start throw uppercuts and haymakers and knees and elbows leading into more injuries.

I am not sure about ground, I dont think 30 seconds is to bad. He did not have an issue with the ground, He just stated if they ground why not mma?

ginosifu

I know where you are coming from. At least in Ohio you guys have some options. We can't even have amateur kickboxing in West Virginia. The last time they tried the commision made them do no leg kicks and no head kicks, which pretty much left the torso for roundhouse, front, and side kicks. Horrible rules.

Anyway, sure there would have to be some rules tweaked and what not. I would not allow knees until the advanced division, maybe make it a 5 second clinch rule for novice and intermediate than a 10 second clinch rule for advanced. As for grappling in does go into the MMA realm however I still feel this is beneficial for ground control and dominant position practice. Of course the competitor has the option, if he throws his opponent and does not want to go down to the ground he can simply allow his opponent to stand back up. I would make a rule that states no striking a downed opponent while in the standing position. You could also give the ref the option to stand both fighters back up before the 30 seconds if you have a guy who did a takedown and is just laying on his opponent trying to recover, absolutely hate the lay and pray fighters you have in MMA!

Also for ground you could avoid ground and pound by only allowing punches to the body and no knees or kicks on the ground. This way it is simply 30 seconds of trying for a submission. Many amateur MMA venues have applied this rule.

I have several ideas Gino, please let me know if you guys are interested and I would be happy to write down a complete rules set.

[Kansuke]

Place for just wrestling, SUMO. :D



And folkstyle, and freestyle, and Greco...

[taai gihk yahn]

In the 1970's kung fu schools did not associate with karate and had their own events. The fighting in the kung fu events was always full contact. Wai Hong and the Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation sponsored events. So did Jow Gar Dean Chin in washington DC. Fighters like Paul Vizzio and Zab Judah's father began in these events

The acceptance of kung fu in the main stream meant they went to karate tourments and did the pont sparring. Worst thing to happen to kung fu

and of course, in those "old skool" Chinatown-style tournies, it was all so above board, you NEVER had the "old boy" network doing things like showing blatant favoritism / having prearranged "winners" depending on who paid how much to who, etc., etc. :rolleyes: so yeah, it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

[lkfmdc]

it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

Well

(1) the events the gangster guys did in the 70's and 80's WERE full contact after all, much better than point sparring any way you cut it

(2) as I mentioned somewhere else, the fact those events were so "gangster" was kind of a good thing, tons of blood, torn open skin, brawling, nasty, ie REAL

Not kung fu theatre or "channel 5 pai"

As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting

[David Jamieson]

and of course, in those "old skool" Chinatown-style tournies, it was all so above board, you NEVER had the "old boy" network doing things like showing blatant favoritism / having prearranged "winners" depending on who paid how much to who, etc., etc. :rolleyes: so yeah, it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

this still happens today.

grossly unqualified individuals running tournaments basically to rake in cash and to hell with any substance.

It's cooler when this mag puts on an event. At least, by all appearances it doesn't appear to be like what you are talking about, whcih I don't doubt as I have witnessed these ridiculous cowardly behaviours in the kf circles i walked in back in the day.

grubby little mucky mucks, they cower at a glare for pete's sakes I have no idea how they come to power among each other.

[lkfmdc]

this still happens today.

grossly unqualified individuals running tournaments basically to rake in cash and to hell with any substance.



oh my G'd :eek:

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........

[donjitsu2]

oh my G'd :eek:

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/35403597_82f4b3a23a.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh my G'd :eek:

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........

Dammnnnit !!!
http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/05/HellFreezesOver.jpg



http://blogs.pitch.com/wayward/four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse.jpg

[Taixuquan99]

May Cod have mercy on our soles.

[JamesC]

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/files/images/wait%20what.jpg

[lkfmdc]

hell freezing over aside




it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

Well

(1) the events the gangster guys did in the 70's and 80's WERE full contact after all, much better than point sparring any way you cut it

(2) as I mentioned somewhere else, the fact those events were so "gangster" was kind of a good thing, tons of blood, torn open skin, brawling, nasty, ie REAL

Not kung fu theatre

As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting

[GeneChing]

As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting
It's still about fighting. Have you stopped fighting? Have you stopped practicing kung fu? I think not. Never mind what others might be doing. As long as some are still into fighting, it retains that validity.

The issue is that kung fu has expanded to include a lot of other things - health, artistic expression, psychotherapy for LARPers, etc. That's not all bad really. It only affects those practitioners of little self-esteem. I'm good with my kung fu practice. I can still throw down if necessary. I'm sure many others of you can too. Well...some of you. ;)

[lkfmdc]

It's still about fighting. Have you stopped fighting? Have you stopped practicing kung fu?



MANY people would say "yes" but your post has merit in it multi approach aspect

I DO however see a LOT less fighting events with Chinese flavor. I mean if you look at that "old articles" thread, or if you were involved in the US san shou scene in the late 90's / early 2000's

[GeneChing]

Fighting has definitely taken a backseat to forms in the CMA tournaments. I was just being picky about your phrasing above. ;)

I think there's several factors weighing into that decline: the rise of MMA, more regulations imposed on full contact fights, the Olympic wushu bid of 2008, the increase of wushu-based fight scenes in movies, and the fat asses of our forum members who'd rather flame each other instead of practicing. :p

[lkfmdc]

Fighting has definitely taken a backseat to forms in the CMA tournaments.

I think there's several factors weighing into that decline:

more regulations imposed on full contact fights



I obviously edited the above, but I HAVE seen people just say "oh we can't do it" without even investigating the real deal

CA is apparently the exception rather than the rule ( you can do MMA but not san shou, how f-in strange is that!)

BECAUSE of MMA being accepted and regulated it is EASIER to do kickboxing now (which is what most CMA competitions are, sanshou included). I mean, you are using pads, there is no hitting downed guys, no choking them out, etc

I can get MMA insurance for around $2000, a san shou event would be CHEAPER. Considering that events in the past got over 150 competitors at $60 a head, that would be well within budget

I think it is more of an EXCUSE....

[MightyB]

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/files/images/wait%20what.jpg

lol
-------

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Fighting has definitely taken a backseat to forms in the CMA tournaments. I was just being picky about your phrasing above. ;)

I think there's several factors weighing into that decline: the rise of MMA, more regulations imposed on full contact fights, the Olympic wushu bid of 2008, the increase of wushu-based fight scenes in movies, and the fat asses of our forum members who'd rather flame each other instead of practicing. :p

http://babyboomertalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/fat-and-happy-guy.jpg

[GeneChing]

CA is apparently the exception rather than the rule ( you can do MMA but not san shou, how f-in strange is that!)
You know, I just heard that there are now more medical marijuana providers in Los Angeles than there are Starbucks. :p

CA amateur MMA is now dominated by CAMO. Cung was talking about doing a 'limited technique' MMA fight that would have essentially been sanshou (in a ring) last year, but he bailed on it, as what was the point really? It's not like that would have attracted more fighters or more audience. The real sticking point with sanshou here is the leitai. Full contact has to be in a ring or a cage. No one will touch the leitai concept - it's all about insurance.

Wow, Iron_Eagle_76! You can get wifi on your yacht now? :p

[MightyB]

hell freezing over aside


As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting

Rose colored glasses - Good KF was always in the minority. Why care about what others are doing? just do your own thing and make sure you're on the right track.

[lkfmdc]

CA amateur MMA is now dominated by CAMO.



I have heard 2nd hand bad stuff about that

Any comment?




The real sticking point with sanshou here is the leitai. Full contact has to be in a ring or a cage. No one will touch the leitai concept - it's all about insurance.

I understand that Cung's shows (Born to Fight) which were in a RING were not allowed, he then turned it into an MMA show

Am I wrong?

My understanding is the entire format, not the competition area, is considered illegal

We had a LOT of shows in CA thanks to Cung (and Tat Mau)... if it is actually LEGAL that would be some hope

[lkfmdc]

Gene left me hanging :mad:

[GeneChing]

I have heard 2nd hand bad stuff about that
Any comment?
No. ;)


I understand that Cung's shows (Born to Fight) which were in a RING were not allowed, he then turned it into an MMA show

Am I wrong?Well, Cung is all about MMA and movie making now, but he still proudly reps sanshou and kudos to him for that. He still does BtF events. In fact, I think there was one last weekend. I went to one last year. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57924); it was under the auspices of CAMO. One of the issues, as you pointed out in the thread above, is indeed throws above the waist. Honestly, I think most of the issues are trivial and surmountable. The real thing holding back sanshou is lack of interest. With so many Muay Thai and MMA fights going on all the time here now, sanshou can't even get a foothold in, promotion-wise.

[lkfmdc]

One of the issues, as you pointed out in the thread above, is indeed throws above the waist. Honestly, I think most of the issues are trivial and surmountable.



If full MMA is now legal in the state, you'd think they could let amateurs do some kickboxing with some throws

(but it IS CA LOL!)




The real thing holding back sanshou is lack of interest. With so many Muay Thai and MMA fights going on all the time here now, sanshou can't even get a foothold in, promotion-wise.

Not sure either if it is "do able" but you'd think that since you can do everything you do in Thai in San Da AND you can also wrestle that it would appeal to the MMA crowd

IE, train your stand up, ALL your stand up

But Muay Thai is a lot more organized and they stick together