Shaolin Kung fu: living and breathing?

[Crosshandz]

The genesis for this topic sort of sprung out of discussions had elsewhere in this forum about Shaolin Kung fu which got me thinking about Shaolin Kung fu as a "living art".

Historically speaking Shaolin's growth as a Kung fu centre has in many ways been to a large extend due to the ability of its fighting monks to assimilate the best of the rest, so to speak. There are numerous tales of outside experts impressing the monks of Shaolin and being persuaded to stay and help them develop their skills. Indeed, it was the genesis of Xinyiba and the role of Ji Longfeng that got me thinking around this topic.

Essentially Shaolin has up until now been a living art which grows as it encounters new ideas which, I suppose, is in part why its library of techniques is so vast.

However, with Martial Arts no longer as important in the modern world as they would have been in pre-modern societies that did not have 21st century law enforcement systems it seems this situation is bound to change. In the era of guns and CCTV there is no longer a strong driver for new martial arts systems that Shaolin can cream off to appear.

Do you think then that Shaolin will remain a living art or will it become increasingly ossified with the way things are done now likely to remain the way they will be done decades from now as a result in the societal changes we've seen in recent centuries?

Just wanted to put that out there and see what people thought?

[Hendrik]

In my opinion,

as in any Chinese Kung Fu tradition,

the core is in the Neigong part, if the Neigong part is gone, there is no longer Shao Lin. because there is no longer kung fu.

[Crosshandz]

In my opinion,

as in any Chinese Kung Fu tradition,

the core is in the Neigong part, if the Neigong part is gone, there is no longer Shao Lin. because there is no longer kung fu.

:confused:

That wasn't really what I was asking.

[rett]

Here are some things that springs to mind. Maybe they tangent the main question.

It's been a while since I read Meir Shahar's book, but iirc he argued that Shaolin was already facing this sort of situation around 400 years ago, at least as far as open-hand forms are concerned.

As you've probably read too, he thinks the open-hand forms and fighting training developed to become more oriented towards a kind of interactive-movement mind-body meditation with a large influx of traditional gymnastics (daoyin, neigong). This was because for actual military purposes you needed to don armor and use weapons. An unarmed and unarmored guy on the battlefield was toast, and this was even before guns came on the scene.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree since even soldiers can't have all their gear on and fight in organized units 24/7. There was a lot of fighting, thieving and whatnot in market towns or you could get waylaid by thieves in countryside (as I understand from kungfu action/comedy movies). Also, the open-hand work is prep work for weapons.

But in any case, morphing like this could be one way for the tradition to stay alive and breathing.

When it comes to high level fighting skills, maybe in the end the techniques are secondary to determination, attitude and hard training.

There is even modern pressure on very traditional schools I believe. For example, a very traditional school might get in a teenage resident student who has won a large Sanda competition or even done MMA. A wise teacher might unleash this student on his peers so they quickly see the difference between their form training and the kind of fighting that's going on out there. (I saw this situation).

[Crosshandz]

Here are some things that springs to mind. Maybe they tangent the main question.

It's been a while since I read Meir Shahar's book, but iirc he argued that Shaolin was already facing this sort of situation around 400 years ago, at least as far as open-hand forms are concerned.

As you've probably read too, he thinks the open-hand forms and fighting training developed to become more oriented towards a kind of interactive-movement mind-body meditation with a large influx of traditional gymnastics (daoyin, neigong). This was because for actual military purposes you needed to don armor and use weapons. An unarmed and unarmored guy on the battlefield was toast, and this was even before guns came on the scene.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree since even soldiers can't have all their gear on and fight in organized units 24/7. There was a lot of fighting, thieving and whatnot in market towns or you could get waylaid by thieves in countryside (as I understand from kungfu action/comedy movies). Also, the open-hand work is prep work for weapons.

But in any case, morphing like this could be one way for the tradition to stay alive and breathing.

When it comes to high level fighting skills, maybe in the end the techniques are secondary to determination, attitude and hard training.

There is even modern pressure on very traditional schools I believe. For example, a very traditional school might get in a teenage resident student who has won a large Sanda competition or even done MMA. A wise teacher might unleash this student on his peers so they quickly see the difference between their form training and the kind of fighting that's going on out there. (I saw this situation).

I agree with much of what you've written there particularly at looking back to see how we might go forward. However, I would be worried that future development of Shaolin Kungfu would see it moving away from its roots as a fighting art.

Like you I feel that the conclusion that Shaolin was being morphed into moving meditation 400 years ago is slightly simplistic. There is some evidence e.g. the emergence of Chen Taijiquan that its more intricate elements were gaining greater emphasis but one can argue that this shift in emphasis was made to promote greater figthing efficiency not less. Indeed, why would the Shaolin water down their martial arts when they already had an extensive body of Qigong to call upon if they wanted to shift their focus to physical and spiritual cultivation? They could've simply dropped martial arts and concentrated on Qigong, nai?

Also, as you point out, there's a historical context. 400 years ago China was becoming more dangerous not less. Without policemen and with soldiers fighting among themselves to the extent that it was felt necessary to let the Manchu in simply to restore order, for all the reasons you outlined, if you couldn't defend yourself you were in trouble.

In fact the Qing period could arguably be referred to as the golden age of Chinese martial arts as they were adapted from battlefield training to serve the purposes of assassination and guerilla warfare. It is accepted by many that Ji Longfeng, who I've already referenced, was an anti Qing rebel and the martial arts that he brought to Shaolin and were developed subsequently show nothing but an emphasis on getting the job done.

The issue I see which my first post touched upon and your post drew out more was that in today's world the challenge to Shaolin is not overthrow the Qing, restore the Ming. People aren't sat there working out what techniques work best for taking out a Qing bannerman under cover of darkness. The main challenge comes from MMA. However, is there any technique in MMA that doesn't exist in Shaolin already? Groundfighting yes...but what else?

As you underline what MMA brings is an attitude to figthing, a dedication to fighting and a professionalism towards fighting which, broadly speaking, is centred around the mastery of the fewest and most cage proven techniques many of which can be found in Shaolin's curriculum. So can Shaolin really go anywhere else?

[RenDaHai]

At the moment Shaolin needs to concentrate on restoring the Kung fu it before about 1949. Since then it has evolved sideways not forewards and it needs to get back on track. I would worry about any modifications the current generation makes because the vast majority don't understand the traditional techniques at all and rely soley on Sanda.

The old techniques and old masters skilled in using them still exist. But for some reason very few people search for them and are content to train the more modern iteration.

[Hendrik]

However, is there any technique in MMA that doesn't exist in Shaolin already? Groundfighting yes...but what else?

Is techniques everything in martial art?




As you underline what MMA brings is an attitude to figthing, a dedication to fighting and a professionalism towards fighting which, broadly speaking, is centred around the mastery of the fewest and most cage proven techniques many of which can be found in Shaolin's curriculum.

So can Shaolin really go anywhere else?


can anyone practice MMA and is MMA really usefull in real life beside in the cage?

[Hendrik]

:confused:

That wasn't really what I was asking.


there is no Shao lin without having 禅拳、禅武 一如 or Chan and martial art non dual disregards what kind of explicit technics or shape of the art.

Chan and martial art non dual is core in Neigong.


So, discussing Shao lin martial art's living one musth taking account on the core .


One can do mmA with 禅武 一如 and it is Shao lin.

[Crosshandz]

there is no Shao lin without having 禅拳、禅武 一如 or Chan and martial art non dual disregards what kind of explicit technics or shape of the art.

Chan and martial art non dual is core in Neigong.


So, discussing Shao lin martial art's living one musth taking account on the core .


One can do mmA with 禅武 一如 and it is Shao lin.

Difficult to disagree with this. Nonetheless, I think if Shaolin stopped practicing traditional Kung fu and became an MMA camp like a Chinese Top Team many people would feel it had undergone revolution rather than evolution, regardless of what body methods was being used. I'm sure many would argue action manifests intention and that the the form Shaolin has taken on manifests its spirit.


At the moment Shaolin needs to concentrate on restoring the Kung fu it before about 1949. Since then it has evolved sideways not forewards and it needs to get back on track. I would worry about any modifications the current generation makes because the vast majority don't understand the traditional techniques at all and rely soley on Sanda.

The old techniques and old masters skilled in using them still exist. But for some reason very few people search for them and are content to train the more modern iteration.

Perhaps then the way forward will be plotted by a modern day Jue Yuan who will find a way in which to assimilate the post-ROC era developments in martial arts into a new 173 techniques, hm? In that situation you can conceive of Shaolin developing new forms from what we know today. That'd certainly be interesting.

[Hendrik]

Difficult to disagree with this.

Nonetheless, I think if Shaolin stopped practicing traditional Kung fu and became an MMA camp like a Chinese Top Team many people would feel it had undergone revolution rather than evolution, regardless of what body methods was being used.

I'm sure many would argue action manifests intention and that the the form Shaolin has taken on manifests its spirit.


少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!

少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？

所 谓禅拳、禅武 一如岂非妄谈？

所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。


of Wugulun has said it all.








Perhaps then the way forward will be plotted by a modern day Jue Yuan who will find a way in which to assimilate the post-ROC era developments in martial arts into a new 173 techniques, hm?

In that situation you can conceive of Shaolin developing new forms from what we know today. That'd certainly be interesting.


new forms creation and evolution is a norm, one doesnt need Jue Yuan because the foundation of Shao Lin kung fu has been well define. One only need people who really has mastered 禅拳、禅武 一如 and the rest is just applications design to fit the different era.

[GeneChing]

And while there have been some changes in law enforcement, we're still not really at the tech level of CSI or any of those Police Procedural shows you see on TV. Heck, I just had lunch with the Cmdr. Milner of NPD (he helped out on our Bodhidharma Cane & Shaolin Tonfa (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-ca117.html) DVD) as well as another lunch with a good friend who is a local Fire dispatch. All the government departments are struggling - they can't afford those fancy-schmancy crime labs you see on TV. But that's off point, really. My point is that the era of guns isn't a 21st century factor. The impact of guns hit the martial arts some 3-4 centuries ago, and has already been addressed. Beyond Meir's book (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464), another great scholarly analysis of the impact of progress is Armed Martial Arts of Japan: Swordsmanship and Archery by G. Cameron Hurst (http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=0300116748). It's a really good read for anyone interested in this topic.

I think the biggest impact on martial arts now is the availability of video. We saw some impact from the initial VHS offerings in the 80s. In the 90s, it was all about VCDs in China. Now with YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/KungfuMagazinedotcom), video access has exploded.

[David Jamieson]

I am a 47 year old white Canadian male of Scots/Welsh heritage living in Canada.

I have practiced Shaolin Kung Fu for about 17 years now.

Yes, it's a living breathing art form if it can find it's way to me and hold my attention for almost 2 decades. lol :)

[Hendrik]

And while there have been some changes in law enforcement, we're still not really at the tech level of CSI or any of those Police Procedural shows you see on TV. Heck, I just had lunch with the Cmdr. Milner of NPD (he helped out on our Bodhidharma Cane & Shaolin Tonfa (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-ca117.html) DVD) as well as another lunch with a good friend who is a local Fire dispatch. All the government departments are struggling - they can't afford those fancy-schmancy crime labs you see on TV. But that's off point, really. My point is that the era of guns isn't a 21st century factor. The impact of guns hit the martial arts some 3-4 centuries ago, and has already been addressed. Beyond Meir's book (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464), another great scholarly analysis of the impact of progress is Armed Martial Arts of Japan: Swordsmanship and Archery by G. Cameron Hurst (http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=0300116748). It's a really good read for anyone interested in this topic.

I think the biggest impact on martial arts now is the availability of video. We saw some impact from the initial VHS offerings in the 80s. In the 90s, it was all about VCDs in China. Now with YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/KungfuMagazinedotcom), video access has exploded.


For me,

1, even at 1950 when my late sifu Cho Hung Choy went back to his village for further Cho family art and Wing Chun training, He told me, they have long practicing guns. instead of Wing Chun double eight slash knifes, the Cho was practicing double hand guns. Chinese martial art has changed since 1850 the lost of opium war. So, that is the reality.

For those who dont know about Cho family, Cho family is a martial art family for generations in Canton pre 1850; in the Cho family there were generations of Qing dynasty Wu Chi ren or those who passed Qing Martial art official examination. The Cho also involve in the 1850 taiping uprising which related to the Red Boat uprising which involve Wing Chun Kuen. It was a family with hundreds of years of martial art profesion.



In addition, my Shao Lin linage connection is from my late sigung
http://www.sekkohsam.tk/
http://wulin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=print&thread=68

According my late sifu, the only monk student of my late sigung, Neigong and Qigong passing down by my late sigung were not something every student can learn because of different body-mind condition. My late sifu was asked to stop the training at some point due to some issue. So, Neigong is not everyone's piece of cake either.





2, Neigong part of TCMA had lost big time after the 1850 opium war; where there are systematic agenda to wipe out Chinese tradition/culture by some westener invaders; in additional to some of the war losing Chinese lost confident in their tradition. Thus, traditional post 1850 knowledge such as Neigong classing, Qi cultivation, TCM...... has being impact very big time. The view at that time is the Western is the best and invincible. This view was hold until the Little Knive society which related to the Red Boat/ Wing Chun /Taiping uprising take down shang hai, only after then the myth of western is invincible no longer hold, but guns and fire arms are the focus since then.


Due to the general throwing out the water with the baby together, TCMA suffer, in fact even the classic on Neigong of SLT of WCK exist today but is not comprehendable by majority of the public due to the lost gap of old chinese culture/ tradition of the Neigong.




Thus, Chinese martial art is no longer the same since 1850 and actually the Neigong part is dying. today in the Ipod, iphone.... world the Neigong part will even fading more due to a totally changing of life style and diet , a full view of Neigong is no longer clear to the general public ( there are lots of "philosophy" but philosophy is not the it), and there is very few attainment.

sure, there are lots New age, energy medicine.....etc fad but those stuffs beside contribute to some relaxation entertainment for most it doest really get too far.


so, chinese martial art has mostly become an exercise entertainment , it is alive but taking the entertainment role in life.

[GeneChing]

Sure, the impact of the Cultural Revolution and recent wars should be tallied into the equation too.

Forgive me for saying, but Wing Chun gun training sounds kind of funny to me. Do they have a form? Sil Lum Pow? Just kidding. I've heard of gun training in martial arts - the Japanese had a form called Hojitsu, but that was for more primitive guns, in which case, rank and file was more important on the battlefield. Ever read Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879 by Noel Perrin (http://www.godine.com/isbn.asp?isbn=0879237732)?

[Hendrik]

Sure, the impact of the Cultural Revolution and recent wars should be tallied into the equation too.

Forgive me for saying, but Wing Chun gun training sounds kind of funny to me. Do they have a form? Sil Lum Pow? Just kidding.

I've heard of gun training in martial arts - the Japanese had a form called Hojitsu, but that was for more primitive guns, in which case, rank and file was more important on the battlefield.

Ever read Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879 by Noel Perrin (http://www.godine.com/isbn.asp?isbn=0879237732)?




sure, culture revolution is a big thing. Luckily my late sigung in internal art Ma Li-Tang was protected by Zhou En-Lai the big guy. otherwise more lost.


1945年9月，在开封被军统逮捕，解往西安特种监狱，与毛泽东的族弟毛泽润一起关在自治室，毛泽润在狱中 赠给马礼堂七绝一首：“革命男儿不寻常，铁窗风味要多尝。他年姓字留青史，全凭今日磨练光。”马礼堂答毛泽 润诗：“几度铁窗志未灰，蛟龟久困望春雷，犬欺虎豹凭门障，蚓戏龙蛇仗水杯。漫将驽骀方老骥，久经霜雪耐寒 梅。民生国计终谁属，不到成功誓不回。

”1961年，马礼堂因给彭德怀元帅治病，被诬陷为黑线人物，第四次被捕入狱，直到“文革”开始，被做为专 政对象遣返回乡。

给彭德怀治病的简要情节：彭德怀过去看病，马老给他的病历上写有：“劳累过度，思虑过重，邪气攻心”。虽然 经彭的秘书要求，将病历使用了化名，但是还是被人抓住了尾巴。被人攻击说：“邪气攻心”中的“邪气”影射的 是共（和谐）产主义，被关，被打。后经过周总理关怀，跟老伴回到河北老家。


Call it Siu Lum Pow. hahaha.
My late sifu told me at that time lots of guns flowing around in Canton. So, it is a survival stuffs. In fact my late sigong in Cho village had taken a shot at an incident trying to stop a robbing and damage his leg. So, reality is reality.

[David Jamieson]

FWIW, Hendrik and I have the same dai si gung!! :eek:

Mind you, Shi Gao Can did get around. Literally thousands of students.

[rett]

FWIW, Hendrik and I have the same dai si gung!!

Now you have to be nice to Hendrik. Otherwise the big man in the sky will roll around in his er mixed metaphor.

[Hendrik]

FWIW, Hendrik and I have the same dai si gung!! :eek:

Mind you, Shi Gao Can did get around. Literally thousands of students.


Great to know !

This is the temple Ven Sek Ko Sam lives and teach in indonesia or my home town Siantar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_nEKNcLCM
The temple is now manage by my siheng a Buddhist monk.

[David Jamieson]

Now you have to be nice to Hendrik. Otherwise the big man in the sky will roll around in his er mixed metaphor.

I've disagreed with Hendrik before, and probably will again.
We have different ways of going about learning our Kung Fu.

Shi Gao Can was connected to my sigung's class mate and brother as his Sil Lum Hood Gar teacher.

Like I said, he had literally thousands of students. Shaolin Kung Fu in indonesia, singapore and throughoutt hat region was a prize not to be overlooked. Many flocked to study with him.

[Hendrik]

I've disagreed with Hendrik before, and probably will again.
We have different ways of going about learning our Kung Fu.

Shi Gao Can was connected to my sigung's class mate and brother as his Sil Lum Hood Gar teacher.

Like I said, he had literally thousands of students. Shaolin Kung Fu in indonesia, singapore and throughoutt hat region was a prize not to be overlooked. Many flocked to study with him.


Shi Gao Can is one of the major influence in South east asia Shao Lin.

At the time Shi Gao Can was teaching in Siantar indonesia, there was Fujian White Crane group in Binjai Indonesia. The students of both party use to get into challenging fighting. and Shi Gao Can used to punish his students to ask those who fights to knee infront of the buddha status for hours.

When I was a kid I heard all of these stories. There was where I learn about these arts, since I know both parties' practioners. The White Crane information later help me to track down Wing Chun. and Shao lin information included the buddhist teaching help me to decode the Siu Lin Tao's anceint writting. Well, call it a Karma.

later I was refer by my monk siheng from Shi Gao Can's lineage to study Chan under late Ven Hsuan Hua when I want a first hand Chan practice understanding.

http://www.advite.com/sf/life/life4.html



I have no style now, since I am everything, from Shao Lin to Wing Chun to Xing Yi to Taiji to Kyokushin .... so I am ok with anyone disagree with me.

[Northwind]

Great to hear about Shi Gao Can here! I use to hang out at the temple he taught at in Singapore, Shuang Lin Si, all the time (I lived only a few hundred yards away).

Unfortunately there's no more martial arts at the temple, but many of his successors are still in the area.

[Hendrik]

David,

Do you have photo or clip on your sigung and your art ?

Thanks!

[Hendrik]

Great to hear about Shi Gao Can here! I use to hang out at the temple he taught at in Singapore, Shuang Lin Si, all the time (I lived only a few hundred yards away).

Unfortunately there's no more martial arts at the temple, but many of his successors are still in the area.


Yup. the Shuang Lin Si.


The also no longer martial art in the indonesia temple.

Both my Buddhist monk sihengs, two of them, do not practice martial art. They are famous Buddhist monks in Indonesia now.


another student of Ven Shi Gao Can is GM Png of Shao lin Penang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHCqwFuWdc

[Northwind]

another student of Ven Shi Gao Can is GM Png of Shao lin Penang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHCqwFuWdc

Yup - I believe that's where he went (Penang) after leaving Singapore.

[Hendrik]

Yup - I believe that's where he went (Penang) after leaving Singapore.

In my understanding, he was travel and leaving in different places in South East Asia.

[saolim]

Hi,

I made this website:

www.sekkohsam.tk

In the future I would like to visit Indonesia and especially the area where Sek Koh Sam stayed.

Anyone care to assist me in where to go exactly? All help appreciated!