New Sheriff In Town...

[Faruq]

No, just kidding. But really, I just came across this youtube clip, and it looks like this guy has a school in Chicago. Not my thing, but not too bad. Looks like he has good physical fitness, and a positive message for his students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY0u0F5LPyQ


http://www.youtube.com/user/FreddiesModernKungFu

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, just kidding. But really, I just came across this youtube clip, and it looks like this guy has a school in Chicago. Not my thing, but not too bad. Looks like he has good physical fitness, and a positive message for his students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY0u0F5LPyQ


http://www.youtube.com/user/FreddiesModernKungFu

I try not to be too blown away by those sorts of things. It is impressive. However, different body types express fitness differently. Some bench press a ton. Some do body weight stuff like no body's business, and some have incredible endurance. Other still, can acheive any.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that there is a perception in martial arts that what that guy was doing is the highest level of fitness in martial arts. It's simply a way to be fit, but not necessarily the way.

[Faruq]

Yeah, it looks like the guy's more a fitness trainer than martial arts master. Like he uses his impressive upper body strength, lectures on philosophy and a dynamic personality to sell himself more than mastery of martial arts. But then again on his web page, he seems to say indirectly state as much, so no big surprise. That's why he calls it Modern Kung Fu rather than Fred's Wing Chun or Fred's Choi Li Fut. Seems like a nice guy, and I hope he makes enough money to train with some real masters and master a legitimate style so we can have another quality teacher of a legitimate martial art in Chicago. There are so few compared to Cali or New York. Oh well....

[Snipsky]

I think the guy was Shaolin Dynasty's class mate under Sifu Ng.

[MasterKiller]

To quote Kenny Powers, "I play real sports. I'm not trying to be the best at exercising."

[David Jamieson]

To quote Kenny Powers, "I play real sports. I'm not trying to be the best at exercising."

wait, sports is also a recreation and ergo not really what it represents, which originally is warrior skills or simulated war itself, ergo not real in the truest sense of the word....so, is Kenny Powers a little slow or something?

[MasterKiller]

wait, sports is also a recreation and ergo not really what it represents, which originally is warrior skills or simulated war itself, ergo not real in the truest sense of the word....so, is Kenny Powers a little slow or something?

"A lot of people ask me, 'Kenny Powers, you're a giant superstar. You can get any woman. Have you ever paid for sex?' And the answer is yes, I have. Several times, in fact. And it's actually kinda cool. You can negotiate practically anything and sometimes, even just kind of do stuff in the moment that you never agreed to pay for and it goes by without much argument."

"Undaunted, I knew the game was mine to win. Just like in life, all of my successes depend on me. I'm the man who has the ball, I'm the man who can throw it faster than ****. So that is why I am better than everyone in the world. Kiss my ass and suck my ****, everyone. "

[David Jamieson]

"A lot of people ask me, 'Kenny Powers, you're a giant superstar. You can get any woman. Have you ever paid for sex?' And the answer is yes, I have. Several times, in fact. And it's actually kinda cool. You can negotiate practically anything and sometimes, even just kind of do stuff in the moment that you never agreed to pay for and it goes by without much argument."

"Undaunted, I knew the game was mine to win. Just like in life, all of my successes depend on me. I'm the man who has the ball, I'm the man who can throw it faster than ****. So that is why I am better than everyone in the world. Kiss my ass and suck my ****, everyone. "

touché

lol

[Dark Chi]

I think the guy was Shaolin Dynasty's class mate under Sifu Ng.

no I'm sure its Monkey style or sifu ng is a Monkey LOL

Low level practitioners need not apply LOL

[Darthlawyer]

Yeah, it looks like the guy's more a fitness trainer than martial arts master. Like he uses his impressive upper body strength, lectures on philosophy and a dynamic personality to sell himself more than mastery of martial arts. But then again on his web page, he seems to say indirectly state as much, so no big surprise. That's why he calls it Modern Kung Fu rather than Fred's Wing Chun or Fred's Choi Li Fut. Seems like a nice guy, and I hope he makes enough money to train with some real masters and master a legitimate style so we can have another quality teacher of a legitimate martial art in Chicago. There are so few compared to Cali or New York. Oh well....

The guy looks like he could actually fight, and you want to turn him into a forms collector instead?

[Ray Pina]

The condition seems spot on.

The martial side of things, a couple things jumped out at me: He either strikes stiff, long drawn out power. Or fast with flurries. Hard to tell against a dummy.

However, he breaks posture a couple times in the mitt drill, leaning back to get around a mitt hand..... very bad habit, especially against no resistance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tommy Carruthers is still more cool !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC1NtJmoBws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSCblI5u_U

[Faruq]

The guy looks like he could actually fight, and you want to turn him into a forms collector instead?

Well, even for his Jeet Kune Do to at least bring it more in line with Dan Inosanto's understanding of it and methods of training it.

[hskwarrior]

I still find it pretty funny how people on this forum hates forms practice. :rolleyes:
they probably couldn't do a form if their life depended on it. LOL

[bawang]

i highly respect form practice.

flaying your arms around and stealing names from northern kung fu isnt exactly my thing tho.

[hskwarrior]

i highly respect form practice.

flaying your arms around and stealing names from northern kung fu isnt exactly my thing tho.

Good, cause no one should be flaying (FLAYING---WHATEVER THAT MEANS) their arms around while stealing names from northern kung fu.

[bawang]

i love the smell of irony in the morning

[hskwarrior]

i love the smell of irony in the morning

I like to use a steamer. But, the 100,00 plus students who DO practice forms couldn't give two squats about the five people on this forum who doesn't like forms practice. LMAO

[bawang]

its funny when american kung fu people think they matter.

[hskwarrior]

its funny when american kung fu people think they matter.

I know right?!?!?!......WTF were they thinking?

[Ray Pina]

Kung Fu has so many forms and so few fighters.... boxing has so little form but so many fighters.

How are forms justified from a martial return-on-time-invested point of view? Not an emotional response. But what is the justification if Kung Fu focuses so much time on form in training and competition but isn't producing fighters?

[bawang]

you also havent produced any fighters.

and when you went to china looking for real kung fu. you went to shang hai.

david ross can critisize forms. you dont have any authority to do so.

[Ray Pina]

you also havent produced any fighters.

david ross can critisize forms. you dont have any authority to do so.

I don't have a school with paying martial arts students. But this isn't about me. Try not to make it personal, and try to think about the statement.

[hskwarrior]

Kung Fu has so many forms and so few fighters.... boxing has so little form but so many fighters.

Nice. good observation there.


How are forms justified from a martial return-on-time-invested point of view? Not an emotional response. But what is the justification if Kung Fu focuses so much time on form in training and competition but isn't producing fighters?

I won't argue over why forms this, forms that....BLAH BLAH BLAH. either you do forms or you don't. NO MENTION of fighting when you practice forms. when it comes to fighting, you train to fight. you don't do forms. When you practice forms, then forms are what you practice. either you do or you don't. simple really.

[Ray Pina]

david ross can critisize forms. you dont have any authority to do so.

I think I have just as much authority as anyone here. Perhaps more than many.I have studied traditional forms. I have competed full contact, San Da and MMA. I also now train 100% without form.

[bawang]

this is martial arts. you dont get an a for effort.

you competed. david ross students comepted and won

i dont like wing chun, but i dont train wing chun. so i dont go to the wing chun section forum and bich about it.

[Ray Pina]

either you do forms or you don't. NO MENTION of fighting when you practice forms. when it comes to fighting, you train to fight. you don't do forms. When you practice forms, then forms are what you practice. either you do or you don't. simple really.


Kung Fu is --- used to be --- a martial art. If the forms aren't for fighting, what are they for? Are you telling me there is form training for the sake of form and then also a different set of training for the sake of fighting?

That would explain things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu has so many forms and so few fighters.... boxing has so little form but so many fighters.

How are forms justified from a martial return-on-time-invested point of view? Not an emotional response. But what is the justification if Kung Fu focuses so much time on form in training and competition but isn't producing fighters?

It has been shown and stated over and over that forms were not designed to develop fighters/fighting, they were a system of cataloging techniques and "applications".
Many systems have NO forms and produce excellent fighters.
Forms are not needed and have never been needed to develop fighting skills.

None of that means they serve no purpose. just that they are not needed for developing fighting skills.

[hskwarrior]

Kung Fu is --- used to be --- a martial art. If the forms aren't for fighting, what are they for? Are you telling me there is form training for the sake of form and then also a different set of training for the sake of fighting?

That would explain things.

It still is. this isn't going to go back the the idea of Shaw Brother movies is it?


Are you telling me there is form training for the sake of form and then also a different set of training for the sake of fighting?

Why does that seem to shock you? If you don't practice forms, you will never understand them. Those that do, know there is a huge difference. sorry you can't see that man.


It has been shown and stated over and over that forms were not designed to develop fighters/fighting, they were a system of cataloging techniques and "applications".

is it possible for any of the FORM HATERS to comprehend that? i'm still waiting for that day to come.


Forms are not needed and have never been needed to develop fighting skills.

None of that means they serve no purpose. just that they are not needed for developing fighting skills.

Exactly

[Ray Pina]

this is martial arts. you dont get an a for effort.
you competed. david ross students comepted and won
.

That was over 6 years ago in my first amateur MMA match. No one wins them all. Especially as a newbie against someone with prior MMA fights.

Again, this is not about me then or now. This is about holding statements and a general Kung FU practice to task.

[bawang]

if you train muay thai, and your kru told you to do that gay pre fight dance, to that ear piercing noise that sounds like ducks being killed, you would have no problem.

but in kung fu? no. white people get to demand what they dont like, what they dont wanna do. american students treat their sifu like waiters at the panda express.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I still have the medals I won in forms competition in my time in TKD and Karate, along with the ones in fighting.
Forms may not have helped me to be a better fighter per say, but doing them never hurt.
They develop balance, fluidity of movement, control and, well, FORM.

[hskwarrior]

panda express

Time for some Orange Chicken!!!!!!

[Ray Pina]

It still is. this isn't going to go back the the idea of Shaw Brother movies is it?



Why does that seem to shock you? If you don't practice forms, you will never understand them. Those that do, know there is a huge difference. sorry you can't see that man.



is it possible for any of the FORM HATERS to comprehend that? i'm still waiting for that day to come.


I don't hate form. I just see focus on form, you get Wushu. True2Form.

Focus on fighting: you get training with boxing gloves and head gear and live throws and ground fighting..... feedback, reaction time, adaptability, confidence in technique.

If my focus was on martial arts, which it is, doing these forms is like spending time learning a gymnastic routine.... sure, I will gain flexibility, and movement, etc., etc. But I would put money on a built gymnast over any of those True2Formers.

In the end, the question remains: where are the fighters with all these form benefits?

[bawang]

stop with the red herrings. form doesnt improve fighting ability. but form is the core of chinese martial arts. its the chinese way of doing things. its over 1000 years old. it fukin saved kung fu from extinction during several bans over the centuries.

form is one of the few cultural relics from the common people that survived the cultural revolution, and you just wanna throw it away like garbage. no. kiss my ass.

[hskwarrior]

I don't hate form. I just see focus on form, you get Wushu. True2Form

Take a broader look bro. styles like CLF are producing fighters. one of China's best right now studied CLF.


Focus on fighting: you get training with boxing gloves and head gear and live throws and ground fighting..... feedback, reaction time, adaptability, confidence in technique.

Very True. We do the same thing. When we train our techniques that are practiced in the forms, we put on gloves, mouth guards, head gear all the stuff you mentioned and go for it. When we're not focusing on fighting, we focus on forms, drills, stance work and so on. I won't EVER throw away all i've learned just to focus strictly on fighting. Not everyone wants to be a fighter but they DO want to learn a martial art for their own reasons.

True2form embarrasses me, and you will never ever ever ever......evaevaevaeva.....find my students doing TRUE2FORM.

[hskwarrior]

You say where are the Kung Fu people that fight? well, here are a couple of KUNG FU people....not to mention Choy Lee Fut people.......who are in the ring fighting and NOT doing True2Form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmhBKdOAwy4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRWAGW0A0Qc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqBFDX_L080

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VzNS7BnZCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Ef9hgkZVQ

Now, i didn't post these videos to have a discussion of their skills or blah blah blah. it's just proof that CHOY LEE FUT is not one of those styles that are just TRUE2FORM.......

and guess what......THEY PRACTICE FORMS TOO!!!!!!!

[Pork Chop]

if you train muay thai, and your kru told you to do that gay pre fight dance, to that ear piercing noise that sounds like ducks being killed, you would have no problem.


There are a lot of american fighters that refuse to learn the ram muay (the pre-fight dance).
Sometimes I wonder about the type of students asian martial arts attract.
Could you imagine walking into a boxing gym and refusing to do jump rope or shadow boxing?

If forms are all you do, or are the majority of the time you spend training, then maybe there's an issue. But as a part of a much larger syllabus, I have no problem with them.

Running through the ram muay and a taiji form makes a heck of a warm up.

[hskwarrior]

There are a lot of american fighters that refuse to learn the ram muay (the pre-fight dance).
Sometimes I wonder about the type of students asian martial arts attract.
Could you imagine walking into a boxing gym and refusing to do jump rope or shadow boxing?

This is part of the reason why Asian teachers didn't want the Gwai Lo to learn their stuff. Americans can't ever appreciate something like this. they have to insert "MY AMERICAN OPINION" into it ALL the time.


If forms are all you do, or are the majority of the time you spend training, then maybe there's an issue. But as a part of a much larger syllabus, I have no problem with them.

If you are not trying to be a FIGHTER what is wrong with doing forms? personally, i'll never find forms outdated. For me, the forms are to be unlocked and personal discovery is what matters.

When my students were getting into fights almost every weekend i put forms training on the back burner and strictly focused on combat. when times are quiet we go back to forms. i will never see an issue with that.

[hskwarrior]

form is strcitly for cultural values. but a lot of forms are also a type of war dance to show manliness and aggresion.

What Cultural values are you talking about? :confused:

[bawang]

stop redirecting your anger to forms and blame your teacher who milked you

when white people stop eating turkey and apple pie during thanks giving, i will stop doing forms.

[hskwarrior]

american students who got scammed redirect their anger to forms and chinese culture instead of their teachers, because they spent such a long time with them and feel attached.

thats sucks. but some american students are really gullible. its usually the hippy types too. they seem to believe the mystic side of gung fu a little more


when white people stop eating turkey and apple pie during thanks giving, i will stop doing forms.

i don't have turkey at my TG. its HAM baby and i can't stand apple pie. LEMON PIE....!!!!

[bawang]

its usually the hippy types too. they seem to believe the mystic side of gung fu a little more

they are not really peope. they are just walking pieces of meat that makes noise. its ok to lie to them and teach fake kung fu.

[hskwarrior]

they are not really peope. they are just walking pieces of meat that makes noise. its ok to lie to them and teach fake kung fu.

All you need to do is tell em "you are too new to understand. it takes a lifetime to be able to grasp the essence of the universe".........................they will follow you till the ends of the Earth.

[bawang]

and its usually those people with the ambition/delusion to actually want to become a sifu.

those chinatown teachers didnt take them seriously and didnt realize in america that could really happen.

[hskwarrior]

and its usually those people with the ambition/delusion to actually want to become a sifu.

those chinatown teachers didnt take them seriously and didnt realize in america that could really happen.

Luckily my chinatown didn't have too many fakes.

[bawang]

yes. your chinatown is the special chinatown where the cantonese dont rip off gwailos, and triads dont sell drugs and open kids day care.

[wenshu]

american students treat their sifu like waiters at the panda express.

Panda Express has waiters?

[bawang]

Panda Express has waiters?

exactly my fren, exactly.

[hskwarrior]

yes. your chinatown is the special chinatown where the cantonese dont rip off gwailos, and triads dont sell drugs and open kids day care.

You mad bro? :eek:

[Ray Pina]

"Real Kung Fu" is almost extinct. Probably in its last generation right now with the last of the remaining old timers (65 and older). After cultural revolution, all their is is form. no substance.... that was by design.


I respect my teachers. I also respect my new and only student. It's a two way street.

Unlike most people, this student isn't paying. But if I sign up for a$$ kicking lessons and pay every month and all there is is form and no one is fighting or doing any real sparring I skaddadle.


I don't knock them. I love lion dance. I used to do it.
I don't knock form. I love a couple forms. I used to do it.
I don't knock weapons form or drum and cymbal playing... I used to do it.
I don't knock alters, incense, Chinese writing, big fans with dragons, cranes, tigers.... wooden men, back rooms with iron palm bags. Pitch forks, three-section staffs. Long poles.

But when you tell me people like this are fit to talk about the martial benefits of form... or real fighting for that matter. Sorry, I call bull$hit!!!!! You people don't fight! I had to go knocking on doors to try to get you people to fight. Ultimately I had to literally go outside TCMA to fight.



Say what you will of my video from when I was in New York. At the very least it shows a 30-something-year old capable of handling himself in and out of the ring. That's what martial arts should do.

I am 37 now and done fighting (except if Ross will compare in NY over Thansgiving:)) but I have seen a lot. I have trained with some very well respected people. My focus now is on firearms and training my new student.... in 1.5 years I expect him to be able to handle himself at amateur boxing, kick boxing and MMA levels. I expect him to roll like a good blue belt....This is what I expect of myself as a coach.

How can there be so many sifus with so many students and so few fighters?

[hskwarrior]

Ultimately I had to literally go outside TCMA to fight.


Glad that you're finally happy. good luck with your student. But if i see him practicing forms i'm talking big ****!!!!!!!! LOL


I don't knock them. I love lion dance. I used to do it.
I don't knock form. I love a couple forms. I used to do it.
I don't knock weapons form or drum and cymbal playing... I used to do it.
I don't knock alters, incense, Chinese writing, big fans with dragons, cranes, tigers.... wooden men, back rooms with iron palm bags. Pitch forks, three-section staffs. Long poles.

None of the above ever claim to do these things to train for a fight.

But I do have a question for you. Forgive me first, it seems like you're looking for Shaw Brother movie action in regards to gung fu. But, what i want to ask you is, if upper cut, jab, straight, Over hand, spinning back fists, back fists are the primary techniques i'd be using to train in a fight (these exact techniques are found in my forms), how are YOU ...i mean YOU expecting me as a Choy Lee Fut guy to look while using these techniques? I am curious about that.

[Ray Pina]

, what i want to ask you is, if upper cut, jab, straight, Over hand, spinning back fists, back fists are the primary techniques i'd be using to train in a fight (these exact techniques are found in my forms), how are YOU ...i mean YOU expecting me as a Choy Lee Fut guy to look while using these techniques? I am curious about that.

Jab, upper cut, hook, etc.... a moderately retarded person can MASTER those movements in six months

CAN YOU HIT???? How do you open the door while keeping your door closed. That's the training! And you won't learn it from form.

[Ray Pina]

You'll look the way that YOU look while using your technique and their principles. You'll express your personality in given situations.... the reason everyone looks relatively the same is that their's only so many reasonable options for a given situation. The younger, more athletic you are, the more options.

[MasterKiller]

http://i51.tinypic.com/s6sldv.gif

[hskwarrior]

You'll look the way that YOU look while using your technique and their principles. You'll express your personality in given situations.... the reason everyone looks relatively the same is that their's only so many reasonable options for a given situation. The younger, more athletic you are, the more options.

I feel you. but i didn't have to learn martial arts to understand that tho.


CAN YOU HIT???? How do you open the door while keeping your door closed. That's the training! And you won't learn it from form.

I agree, a form doesn't teach you whats behind a strike. your sifu should be able to tell you that early on. We practice our strikes from our forms on focus mitts and what not and yes everyone at first doesn't hit as hard as they thought till they hit something. I'm no square to this idea bro.

but, to counter what you said about form doesn't teach you how to open or close doors and such, i have to beg to disagree. yes, we focus on what doors are open, how to close them, how to open others, etc etc. Alot of how i learned to deal with something i did learn from form then working at applying it.

[Ray Pina]

I'm not talking about hitting hard. Most people can hit hard enough. And this certainly is not aimed at you.

Pad work is great. But saying you can learn how to open someone's door while keeping your door closed and striking from form is like saying you practice target shooting without the firearm and bullets. Maybe in theory.... but without the kick of the rifle, without environmental factors, it's just theory.

Without having to keep pace/footwork with someone, work out their timing and tempo, deal with real striking...it's just theory.

That's what the Kung Fu community really offers: Theory.... do this and you get iron palm. Do this you get internal. Do this form and you understand hand work. Do this form you understand sword play. Where's the practical return?

TCMAers today are not fit to compare with boxers, Kendo, Judo, BJJ. Hands, feet, throws, ground, swords..... substandard.

It's 100% because of the way they train. Same body parts. Probably a wider range of age groups. So what is it?... my theory is its the emphasis on form.

[hskwarrior]

Pad work is great. But saying you can learn how to open someone's door while keeping your door closed and striking from form is like saying you practice target shooting without the firearm and bullets. Maybe in theory.... but without the kick of the rifle, without environmental factors, it's just theory.

right on bro, but i completely trust the hands of Choy Lee Fut for a stand up art man.


Without having to keep pace/footwork with someone, work out their timing and tempo, deal with real striking...it's just theory.

As a TCMA'er.......I'm with you on that.


That's what the Kung Fu community really offers: Theory.... do this and you get iron palm. Do this you get internal. Do this form and you understand hand work. Do this form you understand sword play. Where's the practical return?

I agree to some extent. some schools may not completely under the combative side of the art.


TCMAers today are not fit to compare with boxers, Kendo, Judo, BJJ. Hands, feet, throws, ground, swords..... substandard.

to some extent i agree with you. but, you can't lump everyone in that pile.


It's 100% because of the way they train. Same body parts. Probably a wider range of age groups. So what is it?... my theory is its the emphasis on form.

Exactly. very true. But there are some out there who have recognized that and are working towards correcting this.

[B.Tunks]

"Real Kung Fu" is almost extinct. Probably in its last generation right now with the last of the remaining old timers (65 and older). After cultural revolution, all their is is form. no substance.... that was by design.


I respect my teachers. I also respect my new and only student. It's a two way street.

Unlike most people, this student isn't paying. But if I sign up for a$$ kicking lessons and pay every month and all there is is form and no one is fighting or doing any real sparring I skaddadle.


I don't knock them. I love lion dance. I used to do it.
I don't knock form. I love a couple forms. I used to do it.
I don't knock weapons form or drum and cymbal playing... I used to do it.
I don't knock alters, incense, Chinese writing, big fans with dragons, cranes, tigers.... wooden men, back rooms with iron palm bags. Pitch forks, three-section staffs. Long poles.

But when you tell me people like this are fit to talk about the martial benefits of form... or real fighting for that matter. Sorry, I call bull$hit!!!!! You people don't fight! I had to go knocking on doors to try to get you people to fight. Ultimately I had to literally go outside TCMA to fight.



Say what you will of my video from when I was in New York. At the very least it shows a 30-something-year old capable of handling himself in and out of the ring. That's what martial arts should do.

I am 37 now and done fighting (except if Ross will compare in NY over Thansgiving:)) but I have seen a lot. I have trained with some very well respected people. My focus now is on firearms and training my new student.... in 1.5 years I expect him to be able to handle himself at amateur boxing, kick boxing and MMA levels. I expect him to roll like a good blue belt....This is what I expect of myself as a coach.

How can there be so many sifus with so many students and so few fighters?

Shut the f.uck up. Your ego and your mouth is massive but your fighting record is straight up embarrassing (can you not see that???) so you are definitely not qualified to speak on the state of kung fu or even talk with authority on combat sports. You know next to nothing about Chinese martial arts and every time you come on here spouting your sh.it you make yourself look an even bigger idiot with your complete ignorance. I can't read your sh.it anymore without taking offence. If you're the saviour of Chinese martial arts then shut your big mouth and go and do something about it instead of coming on here with your deluded, egomaniacal moaning.

Thanks in advance.

BT

[Ray Pina]

Shut the f.uck up. Your ego and your mouth is massive but your fighting record is straight up embarrassing (can you not see that???) so you are definitely not qualified to speak on the state of kung fu or even talk with authority on combat sports.
BT

My losing record, of the time you speak, is from when I trained TCMA. I changed my training and WOW, I started winning.

What is your amateur/professional record? So I know what authority you have.

[Ray Pina]

Here's a couple recent wins. I show you mine, you show me yours.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ray,
You need to stop making everything a **** measuring contest Bro, you're too much of a grown up for that.
Enough, truly I say this from my heart.
Enough.

[Ray Pina]

Easy for you to say. I have total kooks questioning me because someone posted about sanctioned fights I lost over 5 years ago. Guys who don't have the sack to go fight themselves questioning my win/loss ratio? Guys calling me out saying I'm a liar, about surfing.

I got video. I got pics. I got fighting license and record. Value Tudo in Latin America.

These motherfu(kers don't have to change and can do what they want. But they aint going to use words to destroy what I have sweated and bled for.

[Ray Pina]

And don't hate me because I'm beautiful and talented:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, you bring it on yourself Bro.
Your posts routinely degrade TCMA on a TCMA forum.
This is a typical sentiment:

so you are definitely not qualified to speak on the state of kung fu or even talk with authority on combat sports. You know next to nothing about Chinese martial arts

And when you say the things you say, what do you expect?

[Ray Pina]

Well, I would say I studied Wing Chun and Hung Gar for 5 years. With S Mantis on the side. Then I studied internal with the 4th generation inheritor of Ba Gua.... my master is featured in Jesse O'Brian's second edition of Nei Jia Quan.... with a photo of me and my master.


I fought San Da twice. I fought MMA amateur 3 or 4 times. And semi pro 4 or 5 times.

I've touched hands with Emmin Boztepe.

Honestly, these guys are saying I'm not qualified. Who here has more hands on experience?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I would say I studied Wing Chun and Hung Gar for 5 years. With S Mantis on the side. Then I studied internal with the 4th generation inheritor of Ba Gua.... my master is featured in Jesse O'Brian's second edition of Nei Jia Quan.... with a photo of me and my master.


I fought San Da twice. I fought MMA amateur 3 or 4 times. And semi pro 4 or 5 times.

I've touched hands with Emmin Boztepe.

Honestly, these guys are saying I'm not qualified. Who here has more hands on experience?

Well, lots of Us here are also very qualified and while we agree with you in MANY regards, you SEEM to be implying throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You seem to be implying that there are no decent TCMA that fight.

It has been my experience that we find what we are looking for.

[wenshu]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

[Lucas]

You just described Bruce Lee :p

sorry couldn't help myself

[Ray Pina]

Popular speech doesn't need protection.

I'm an American. I love America.... I think it's my patriotic duty to point out when our government is leading us astray.

I love Chinese culture and martial arts. Sorry, what I see is a form fest. Very few people actually able to apply their technique against standard, modern resistance (boxing, grappling).

Now we are free to agree or disagree.

If someone is going to attack me personally, based on my credentials. I think its only fair to point out that I've been studying martial arts since I was 4 years old. 33 years!

I'm not talking from holding horse stance or from the outside of the ring with a bottle of water. If I say something, it's an opinion. But its one based on experience.... and from someone with no agenda. Nothing to gain or lose from TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Popular speech doesn't need protection.

I'm an American. I love America.... I think it's my patriotic duty to point out when our government is leading us astray.

I love Chinese culture and martial arts. Sorry, what I see is a form fest. Very few people actually able to apply their technique against standard, modern resistance (boxing, grappling).

Now we are free to agree or disagree.

If someone is going to attack me personally, based on my credentials. I think its only fair to point out that I've been studying martial arts since I was 4 years old. 33 years!

I'm not talking from holding horse stance or from the outside of the ring with a bottle of water. If I say something, it's an opinion. But its one based on experience.... and from someone with no agenda. Nothing to gain or lose from TCMA.

I can respect that and agree with that.
That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have to end up in a **** measuring contest that may eventually just get you banned.

[hskwarrior]

I'm not talking from holding horse stance or from the outside of the ring with a bottle of water. If I say something, it's an opinion. But its one based on experience.... and from someone with no agenda. Nothing to gain or lose from TCMA.

There's only a very very minute handful of people on this forum. yet, you over-abundantly express the same thing time and time again like a broken record. you might reach a wider audience if you make video's about your opinion. here on the forum, its hella played out.

[Faruq]

Hey, I don't want to offend anyone so if I do just let me know and I'll apologize and shut up. But it seems to me Ray is just expressing his opinions and backing them up with his actual fighting experience. I mean if we all just go around agreeing with each other on the forum, won't it defeat the purpose of having a forum? I don't know. I'm just not seeing what he's doing as beating his chest, but rather expressing his opinion and giving his credentials. I won't say anything else about it.

[David Jamieson]

Just to point it out, it has been found that people who are fairly mediocre often overestimate their abilities whilst people who are indeed highly skilled, often underestimate their abilities.

Ray, this ain't a gay dating site buddy. lol seriously. What choo trying to prove with thos pics pretty boy? :p

Just because DADT was revoked today doesn't mean you can start hitting on the young men of KFM!

[hskwarrior]

Hey, I don't want to offend anyone so if I do just let me know and I'll apologize and shut up. But it seems to me Ray is just expressing his opinions and backing them up with his actual fighting experience. I mean if we all just go around agreeing with each other on the forum, won't it defeat the purpose of having a forum? I don't know. I'm just not seeing what he's doing as beating his chest, but rather expressing his opinion and giving his credentials. I won't say anything else about it.

So you don't mind the never ending ride of TCMA bashing? At the same times, even i've learned this, if you want people to listen to you leave out the bashing part. personally, i don't care about ANYONEs fight record. what they could do what they can't do. some things only need to be said once.

[Ray Pina]

So you don't mind the never ending ride of TCMA bashing? At the same times, even i've learned this, if you want people to listen to you leave out the bashing part. personally, i don't care about ANYONEs fight record. what they could do what they can't do. some things only need to be said once.

Honestly I have a hard time relating to you.... you don't care if form relates to martial skill. You don't care what someone can or can't do...... these are very big concerns for me. I'm fighting people.

I have tried to keep on topic and only divert to defend personal attacks made against myself, usually regarding past losses and "wishy washy" footage. Of sanctioned fights. Or of challenge matches I supposedly duped people into when sparring.... if you notice the video, I fight one guy twice. On different days. Why would he do that? The truth is its just a simple hodge podge of SOME fights I had where SOME friends had a camera.

I don't think everyone needs to fight. That's for sure. But someone in the gym should be at the competitive level, competing. Competition keeps one honest and improves the whole gym.

A teacher or a student posting here without a state sanctioned record or some other outside fight experience.... well, it's like me telling the guy who came in last at the olympics how to run or dive or swim. Competition.... you win some you lose some. Buts its ugly when fans on the sideline start pontificating.

Do your thing. Stick to your thing. But again, I always take the stand that I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't say directly to the person if we were on a mat in shorts and a t-shirt.

[Faruq]

So you don't mind the never ending ride of TCMA bashing? At the same times, even i've learned this, if you want people to listen to you leave out the bashing part. personally, i don't care about ANYONEs fight record. what they could do what they can't do. some things only need to be said once.

No, the bashing doesn't bother me. I guess I still believe in the TCMAs regardless to what anyone says. I also believe they're not practiced here the way they are by the people in Asia who know how to use them for the most part. But hey. you're an actual sifu so I know you are a lot more qualified than I am, so if what he says offends you I'll just butt out.

[hskwarrior]

No, the bashing doesn't bother me. I guess I still believe in the TCMAs regardless to what anyone says. I also believe they're not practiced here the way they are by the people in Asia who know how to use them for the most part. But hey. you're an actual sifu so I know you are a lot more qualified than I am, so if what he says offends you I'll just butt out.

I agree with everything you said there. have the same beliefs. thats why i try to make sure i don't raise my students to be guys like that. I'm big on fighting, love it. I also encourage my students to get as much experience in as they can.

so no need to butt out, knowing that there is much more to gung fu and hearing it bashed over and over gets a little tiresome at times.

[Faruq]

Thanks HSKWarrior,

I'd add that a person whose skill and knowledge in TCMA I really respect, Garry Hearfield, does a lot of the stuff Ray advocates, but keeps all the elements of TCMA instead of throwing them away. So I don't think everything Ray says is bad anyway. But I'm pretty sure most of the people here on the forum have practiced martial arts longer than I have, have achieved more and have more knowledge about them, so obviously I'm not gonna go against the grain too loudly with my opinions.

[hskwarrior]

I know sifu, garry, we talk on facebook. i do like the guy. I like Ray too. I know hella guys like him. I just think ray can't get passed the down falls of TCMA, so much so that he can't see anything positive from it.

[Faruq]

If nothing else, you have to respect that both guys put their money where there mouth is, lol.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think the problem with this forum as well as any internet forum is a lot of these topics are very debatable and very close to home for many, and the fact that what kind of context the person says or does something cannot be relayed well over a forum.

That being said, being argumentative is human nature. People ask "why come to a TCMA forum and bash on TCMA", which is a legitimate question. However, all things must be questioned at some point otherwise what you get is people following a grounded dogma of stagnant and most often useless belief and notions.

Some people do not like forms, some people do.

Some say grappling is not important, some believe Shuai Jiao should be a part of every CMA, some believe cross training is the answer to grappling holes.

Some put down Kung Fu and say is sucks and doesn't fight, some practice Kung Fu and fight very well.

The problem is there are no definitive truths and never will be about this subject. It is simply to broad of an area to make sweeping generalizations. About styles, cultures, people, fighters, training methods, ect, ect.

As a Kung Fu practioner and instructor I do not like hearing the constant bashing of TCMA, but at the same time, I sure as hell don't follow stagnant dogma because a wise old man with a cool looking beard told me so. Have faith in yourself and your art and that in the end is all you truly need.

[Ray Pina]

I'm big on fighting, love it. I also encourage my students to get as much experience in as they can.


OK. You made a statement.

How do you encourage your students to get experience?

[Ray Pina]

Thanks HSKWarrior,

I'd add that a person whose skill and knowledge in TCMA I really respect, Garry Hearfield, does a lot of the stuff Ray advocates, but keeps all the elements of TCMA instead of throwing them away. So I don't think everything Ray says is bad anyway. But I'm pretty sure most of the people here on the forum have practiced martial arts longer than I have, have achieved more and have more knowledge about them, so obviously I'm not gonna go against the grain too loudly with my opinions.

I appreciate what you are saying. Thank you.

For the record. I have kept everything I was able to acquire from my master. I never called anyone master before or since. I have a student now. And I 100% use the boxing drills I learned from him. I even invented a couple boxing drills based off their theory which I find to be more alive.

The core concept is 100% keep our door closed, open the other's door, then hit. 100% intercept you or make you block first, complete control, then hit..... to me, that's 100% TCMA thinking.

I've just added BJJ because it's awesome, works and works under similar principles of structure and mechanics. I find a lot of internal principles in BJJ. It's an awesome style.

[hskwarrior]

I think the problem with this forum as well as any internet forum is a lot of these topics are very debatable and very close to home for many, and the fact that what kind of context the person says or does something cannot be relayed well over a forum.

That being said, being argumentative is human nature. People ask "why come to a TCMA forum and bash on TCMA", which is a legitimate question. However, all things must be questioned at some point otherwise what you get is people following a grounded dogma of stagnant and most often useless belief and notions.

Some people do not like forms, some people do.

Some say grappling is not important, some believe Shuai Jiao should be a part of every CMA, some believe cross training is the answer to grappling holes.

Some put down Kung Fu and say is sucks and doesn't fight, some practice Kung Fu and fight very well.

The problem is there are no definitive truths and never will be about this subject. It is simply to broad of an area to make sweeping generalizations. About styles, cultures, people, fighters, training methods, ect, ect.

As a Kung Fu practioner and instructor I do not like hearing the constant bashing of TCMA, but at the same time, I sure as hell don't follow stagnant dogma because a wise old man with a cool looking beard told me so. Have faith in yourself and your art and that in the end is all you truly need.

Well said bro. that was one long message that i actually chose to read all the way through. I'm totally with you on that. I've always stated here and to all my students that gung fu was a personal road to travel. this concept has been passed down from teacher to teacher in my sifu's school. They would look at your best attributes and teach you accordingly.

[hskwarrior]

How do you encourage your students to get experience?

Let me state this first. I am more of an underground teacher. Secondly, we're a stand up style, so style wise we don't go to the ground. Most of the guys i've trained didn't want to fight in the ring. BUT, I've come to the point where i don't want them fighting in the streets anymore and want them to go into competition fighting. with that said.....

To answer your question, first is my students spar alot. Students from other schools have come by and we have sparring sessions. On the other side of the coin, i don't tell my students to go bully anyone. but, i have taught them to never back down from a confrontation. so yes, i encourage them to get their street experience on if they have to. Aside from what i just said, i don't want to get into a big discussion on this or that. I'm not trying to compare or share anything right now.

[Lucas]

I've just added BJJ because it's awesome, works and works under similar principles of structure and mechanics. I find a lot of internal principles in BJJ. It's an awesome style.

not to mention that you need a good grappling base for the arena you compete in.

personally, i think its cool that you compete in mma and vale tudo and not only retain and use your cma skills in the ring, but also have started teaching them.

[Ray Pina]

Again, can you tell me how you "encourage" your students "to get experience?"

I think this is wear the rubber meets the road. You love fighting and you encourage your students.

Do you fight? Do your students fight?

Do you encourage them to cross train at boxing, BJJ or other TCMA schools? Does your school spar? With gear? To what intensity?

Do your students compete? Inside TCMA or inside and outside of TCMA?

I don't need the answer because it doesn't matter to me. But each of these key points reveals something about a gym and its focus. For me, there's nothing like training under someone who fights. They get it. They understand....there's a feeling walking into the gym with a bunch of competitors. I would only train with a non fighter if they were retired. Past that age. But have done the fighting and have fighters under them.

[hskwarrior]

Again, can you tell me how you "encourage" your students "to get experience?"

I think this is wear the rubber meets the road. You love fighting and you encourage your students.

Do you fight? Do your students fight?

Do you encourage them to cross train at boxing, BJJ or other TCMA schools? Does your school spar? With gear? To what intensity?

Do your students compete? Inside TCMA or inside and outside of TCMA?

I don't need the answer because it doesn't matter to me. But each of these key points reveals something about a gym and its focus. For me, there's nothing like training under someone who fights. They get it. They understand....there's a feeling walking into the gym with a bunch of competitors. I would only train with a non fighter if they were retired. Past that age. But have done the fighting and have fighters under them.

That's me now. After seeing many sides of this thing.

I've said what i said. I'm not going any further in this with you.

[Faruq]

I think the problem with this forum as well as any internet forum is a lot of these topics are very debatable and very close to home for many, and the fact that what kind of context the person says or does something cannot be relayed well over a forum.

That being said, being argumentative is human nature. People ask "why come to a TCMA forum and bash on TCMA", which is a legitimate question. However, all things must be questioned at some point otherwise what you get is people following a grounded dogma of stagnant and most often useless belief and notions.

Some people do not like forms, some people do.

Some say grappling is not important, some believe Shuai Jiao should be a part of every CMA, some believe cross training is the answer to grappling holes.

Some put down Kung Fu and say is sucks and doesn't fight, some practice Kung Fu and fight very well.

The problem is there are no definitive truths and never will be about this subject. It is simply to broad of an area to make sweeping generalizations. About styles, cultures, people, fighters, training methods, ect, ect.

As a Kung Fu practioner and instructor I do not like hearing the constant bashing of TCMA, but at the same time, I sure as hell don't follow stagnant dogma because a wise old man with a cool looking beard told me so. Have faith in yourself and your art and that in the end is all you truly need.

That's deep. Word.

[B.Tunks]

The post may have been a bit over the top but I won't take it back. I even felt like a bit of a fraud going back in and editing out the single word that I did. Basically I'm not gonna stand in a room while someone stands out the front and says 'you're all a bunch of pussies' and not do/say something about it. I don't buy that 'it's only the internet' thing. You say that you only say things here that you would say face to face and in that case I take offence at your disrespect and I find your lack of humility shameful. How do you want people to react to you when you say you'll run up in any school and beat everyone’s head in? (which you have in the past). I've dedicated my whole life to martial arts and I've shed tears on the ground in front of the ashes of my teacher so I don't take these things lightly. You're p.issing on a cultural treasure of far more value than any single individual, not critiquing a football game. You frequently insinuate that everyone out here is a gutless, clueless idiot and I'm not having it.

As far as my record, I'm not keen to participate in an ego battle so I'm not gonna record it here, but suffice to say that I fought over a 12 year period with my first fully sanctioned kickboxing bout in 1988. My point is that there are people on here who’s records and achievements significantly dwarf both of ours and there are literally thousands world wide in the same boat. Your world view seems to be a bit like the frog in the well (which is a surprise to me as you seem very well traveled). There are a great number of people from a kung fu background out there in the world heavily involved in both combat and combat sports. For example, many of the pioneers of combat sports such as kickboxing and Muay Thai in the West came from a CMA background, where they were already fighting full-contact at an international level since the 1970's. There are currently people from CMA background fighting in all rule-sets internationally, including in MMA. As an example - I know a German practitioner who has not only fought and won in MMA but is also now fighting with the Dog Brothers using traditional Chinese weapons with great success (however you will not hear him blowing his own horn, in fact he has asked me in the past not to promote his victories because he doesn’t want to look like a big head). Another brother held the European submission grappling title, while another coaches national level MMA champions and a professional European champion. The list goes on - and I won't even try to speak for the status in America.

It's great that you've fought; I've stated that in the past. But in my opinion whatever you have achieved is negated by your bragging and boasting and constant belittling of others. Maybe It would go down a bit easier if your win:loss ratio was reversed. You’re probably a good man in person but you come off as a self obsessed, disrespectful brat on here. If you have any love in your heart for Chinese martial arts you’ll do something to fix the perceived problems rather than continually pointing them out in what appears to be solely an attempt to express your own superiority.

BT

[B.Tunks]

These motherfu(kers don't have to change and can do what they want. But they aint going to use words to destroy what I have sweated and bled for.

Exactly...

[bawang]

ray pina: "i hate kung fu. kung fu sucks. dont get me wrong though, i love kung fu."

[hskwarrior]

ray pina: "i hate kung fu. kung fu sucks. dont get me wrong though, i love kung fu. i also love chinese culture. guangdong girl 16 year old i can buy for 60 bucks."

So in other words Ray Pina loves Chinese Chicken?

[bawang]

what kind of a man says he loves chinese culture, then say chinese people sell their teenage daughters for 50 bucks?

a fukin queer, thats what.

[hskwarrior]

what kind of a man says he loves chinese culture, then say chinese people sell their teenage daughters for 50 bucks?

Some people do have superiority complexes. just sayin. I truly have no respect for anyone who steals from the Chinese Culture then spits on them like dogs.

[Ray Pina]

Basically I'm not gonna stand in a room while someone stands out the front and says 'you're all a bunch of pussies' and not do/say something about it. I don't buy that 'it's only the internet' thing. You say that you only say things here that you would say face to face and in that case I take offence at your disrespect and I find your lack of humility shameful.
BT

Sir, I have been attacked here personally, just as you say above. My record, if you include BJJ tournaments, is waaaaay tipped on the winning side. My overall MMA record now is pretty much even. I wish it was tipped waaaay over on the winning side too:mad: Overall, I entered the sport in my 30s. Didn't start fighting out until I was in my 30s. I met my master a little late and didn't wake up to MMA until having a few fights.

With that said, if a sifu degrades me and I know where his gym is, yes, I will offer that man a chance to back up his lofty claims. I don't look so much into it. You say you're better at chess than me, let's play. It's no big deal. I don't get all excited about it.

As for this long list of 2 or 3 TCMAers that you say are a success in MMA. Well, let's say they are and are listed as "Kung Fu" under their fighting style.... in the entire universe of TCMA people here digging really deep into the video archive to find anyone they can put forth as a true TCMAer capable of competing in the MMA venue.... I can pull as many from a single gym I train at. You don't get a cookie as a martial artist for being good with your hands. It's what you're supposed to do.

[Ray Pina]

ray pina: "i hate kung fu. kung fu sucks. dont get me wrong though, i love kung fu."

Let's say at the very least I suck. I studied Kung Fu for over 10 years and I went out to fight and I failed miserably. Let's keep it at that.

Who's fault is that?

The fact that besides a small handful of San Da fighters here, no one, including teachers making a living from Kung Fu, have even gone out to try. Who's fault is that?

If Kung Fu sucks, it's not because of me. It's because of you. What have you done to raise the bar? If you love Kung Fu so much, do something about it.

I don't stay in a bad relationship that's not working out. If you love it so much, treat it with the respect others treat their MA. Bring it to life.

[MasterKiller]

The fact that besides a small handful of San Da fighters here, no one, including teachers making a living from Kung Fu, have even gone out to try.

Granted, the majority of Chinese schools around here cling to the San Da format, but only in their own tournaments. Most of them won't fight in a sactioned match, even in San Da format.

But you just aren't correct on this.

Besides Onassis Parungao (Hung Gar) , who fought in UFC 7, and besides Sean Obasi (Wing Chun), and besides almost every Chinese fighter on the Art of War cards, there are guys fighting on small- and mid-level cards all over the place. Hell, even Shaolin-Do has been putting guys in the cage sometimes.

[Ray Pina]

Granted, the majority of Chinese schools around here cling to the San Da format, but only in their own tournaments. Most of them won't fight in a sactioned match, even in San Da format.

But you just aren't correct on this.

Besides Onassis Parungao (Hung Gar) , who fought in UFC 7, and besides Sean Obasi (Wing Chun), and besides almost every Chinese fighter on the Art of War cards, there are guys fighting on small- and mid-level cards all over the place. Hell, even Shaolin-Do has been putting guys in the cage sometimes.

I'm not aware of Art of War.... where and what is this?

Not surprised by Shaolin-Do. Out on Long Island their was Tiger Schulman. Total McDojo. But when I left NY, they had MMA fighters too. Say what you will about them, they adapt to the times. I don't personally consider either of them TCMA.

In my eyes there's a small handful of people like the Gin Foon Marks, the Norman and Milton Chins, the Frank Yees.... Chinese Americans with lineage to Chinese boxing systems. These people need to pick up their game. These other strip mall Kung Fu masters in middle America. I know they're too dangerous to compete against..... step.

[MasterKiller]

I'm not aware of Art of War.... where and what is this?

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/?q=fighter

The Art of War™ Fighting Championship is China's first professional freestyle kung fu tournament—an exciting series of mixed martial arts matches between opponents representing every fighting style the martial arts has to offer. Nearly every major fighting style in existence originated or has been refined within China's borders. During ancient times, it was common to find challenges between various schools in a test to see which style would reign supreme. Emphasizing skill, strength, and strategy, the Art of War™ tournament celebrates the highest aspects of the martial arts and creates a modern platform for an ancient Chinese tradition extending back thousands of years.

[Faruq]

I've gotta check that out!!! Hopefully they're not all just doing kickboxing, you know? Hopefully you can actually tell what styles they're from by how they fight!

[Lucas]

Art of war has some exciting fights. They also allowkick on downed opponent...whats that other one....is it legends, the one that wizcoolc's shuai jiao coach or what not just took his divisions title. I forget where he made that thread maybe mma section

[Ray Pina]

Watching some video and interviews.... I keep hearing Mixed Martial Arts. I haven't heard the words Hung Gar, Wing CHun, Mantis, Taiji or Kung Fu yet.

ANyone have some direct links to a Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Mantis, or internal fighter, etc. participating in this?

[Ray Pina]

I've gotta check that out!!! Hopefully they're not all just doing kickboxing, you know? Hopefully you can actually tell what styles they're from by how they fight!

I'm looking. So far I see a lot of BJJ. Good stuff, but not top-of-the-pecking order stuff. Seeing boxing.... haven't seen anything resembling Wing Chun folding elbows, Mantis fist traps, Hung Gar element striking, crane, snake. Definitely no taiji, Hsing-I or Ba Gua. Didn't see any drunken boxing.

If you find anything, please share. I would love to see it. It would be awesome if it was so.

[Lucas]

I'm on my way into work now but ill try and find that link of shuai jiao taking the division title. When I get a chance. However I think realistically guys are def going to cross train no matter if they start in kungfu, muaythai or western boxing. Plus bjj is huge in China now. I've watched several art of war fights but just on YouTube. I'd have to dig in research on the fighters and fi d their stat lists. Gotta be listed somewhere, tho its prob going to be in Chinese lol

[Lucas]

Great now u got me really wanting to know the fighters style ratios in that art of war.

[Ray Pina]

Here's a "Kung Fu" victory a la an Asian giant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqsLJKeyR0w&feature=related

Either way, this in no way represents the high level of pro MMA. No way!


In actuality, TCMA will not get the legitimacy. It's too late. Maybe in the first few years when people stuck more to one style. Now you have to have BJJ to compete. You can't compete as just a Thai Boxer or boxer or just a BJJ.

Evolution. If you're doing what you were doing 20 years ago, never mind 200 years ago.... you're out. You can't compete unless it's in these "dumbed down" events.

[wenshu]

Loathe though I am to give you more of an excuse for your self congratulatory masturbation; you are projecting an extremely attenuated perspective of gong fu. You haven't even mentioned shuai jiao while also ignoring the existence of the wide range of northern styles with the exception of bagua, you make offhand mention of mantis but have you ever really seen any actual mantis?

Concerns about lack of actual fight training in modern gong fu schools are perfectly reasonable but the only thing you seem capable of adding to the conversation is that you are a dedicated aficionado of blowing yourself. Typical story I guess - you got grafted for years by some wing chun school and now express your bitter resentment by projecting your narrowly subjective experience onto everything. All this self obsessed bravado reeks of insecurity and the only new insight I have gained from this thread is your woefully regrettable body art and interior decorating decisions.

[Lucas]

Ray, here is a link to the fight, you have to browse/skip to about 80-83 minutes in, then thats where the fight is. unless you want to watch all of it that is :p

the shuai jiao guys name is Yao Hung Gong, and hes introduced to the crowed as shuai jiao for his style if i remember correctly.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg2NzA2ODIw.html

[hskwarrior]

Loathe though I am to give you more of an excuse for your self congratulatory masturbation; you are projecting an extremely attenuated perspective of gong fu. You haven't even mentioned shuai jiao while also ignoring the existence of the wide range of northern styles with the exception of bagua, you make offhand mention of mantis but have you ever really seen any actual mantis?


He also totally ignored other systems like CLF who is in the rings these days. I think he has selective vision.


Typical story I guess - you got grafted for years by some wing chun school and now express your bitter resentment by projecting your narrowly subjective experience onto everything. All this self obsessed bravado reeks of insecurity and the only new insight I have gained from this thread is your woefully regrettable body art and interior decorating decisions.

Personally, i think you hit it on the money. he's bitter about his experience with CMA. And, even if you showed him something decent, its a GIVEN that he's gonna shoot it down with a typical shot of "Either way, this in no way represents the high level of pro MMA. No way!" I think its safe to say he'd give the same response event if it was PRO MMA he's checking out. And, i'm not even trying to disrespect the guy.....it's just how he comes off

[Frost]

He also totally ignored other systems like CLF who is in the rings these days. I think he has selective vision.



Personally, i think you hit it on the money. he's bitter about his experience with CMA. And, even if you showed him something decent, its a GIVEN that he's gonna shoot it down with a typical shot of "Either way, this in no way represents the high level of pro MMA. No way!" I think its safe to say he'd give the same response event if it was PRO MMA he's checking out. And, i'm not even trying to disrespect the guy.....it's just how he comes off

to be fair he was asking how YOU get your guys to compete not CLF in general, riding a styles coattails whilst only ever posting clips of body shots only light sparring can be annoying......but to be fair i do sometimes wonder why hes still here if thats how he feels...mind you i wonder that myself sometimes too lol

[hskwarrior]

to be fair he was asking how YOU get your guys to compete not CLF in general, riding a styles coattails whilst only ever posting clips of body shots only light sparring can be annoying......but to be fair i do sometimes wonder why hes still here if thats how he feels...mind you i wonder that myself sometimes too lol

Thanks man, but i know what he was trying to do. I just didn't want to go down that road with him. And i'm not even trying to put him down. I don't really know him. I can only go off of how he acts on this forum. And yes, i agree with you about why he's comes here. and, yes, i too ask my self the same question only to find myself clicking the KFM link. :(

All i was trying to say was at least CLF wasn't trying to be one of the hated on styles. My students don't just spar CLF people but they have a big group of martial artists of varying styles that get together and spar. We even work on some ground stuff as well (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/269081_2208233294325_1502231503_2336627_5046810_n. jpg).

I just don't like putting all i got out there.

[Lucas]

now this is a very simple wiki seach on art of war, they have a list of notable fighters. the only 2 listed as hailing from China both have sanshou/sanda and bjj as their styles. mixed in with mongolian/chinese wrestling backgrounds. but thats pretty good evidence that china based fighters are having backgrounds based in chinese kickboxing.


Bao Li Gao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bao_Li_Gao)- sanda, shuai jiao, bjj.

Zhang Tie Quan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Tie_Quan) Mongolian wrestling, sanshou, bjj

[bawang]

Let's say at the very least I suck. I studied Kung Fu for over 10 years and I went out to fight and I failed miserably. Let's keep it at that.

Who's fault is that?

The fact that besides a small handful of San Da fighters here, no one, including teachers making a living from Kung Fu, have even gone out to try. Who's fault is that?

If Kung Fu sucks, it's not because of me. It's because of you. What have you done to raise the bar? If you love Kung Fu so much, do something about it.

I don't stay in a bad relationship that's not working out. If you love it so much, treat it with the respect others treat their MA. Bring it to life.

i dont need to "do somethign about it" because:

- i understand it is a primitive and crude method for trainin farmers in ancient times
- i appreciate its cultural value
- i dont see it as the grand ultimate style of fighting

[Ray Pina]

you make offhand mention of mantis but have you ever really seen any actual mantis?

My Hung Gar/Wing CHun teachers brother studied S MAntis with Milton Chin and Norman Chin in NYC Chinatown. He was their disciple.

I studied with him after hours in his brother' school with a small group, about 5 guys who wanted to fight. Training was 100% live drills and sparring.

Unfortunately, there was such a difference between our group and the other group politics arose and we were shut down.... thus the beginning of my journey. It was from that group I was introduced to Chinatown Freemason Wing Chunners to throw around.


Concerns about lack of actual fight training in modern gong fu schools are perfectly reasonable



All this self obsessed bravado reeks of insecurity and the only new insight I have gained from this thread is your woefully regrettable body art and interior decorating decisions.

I seek to improve in all areas of interest. When I was single I lived in a simple apartment. I'm getting married in April and now live in a 3 bedroom house on a cliff overlooking my favorite surf beach.

Telling it like it is, and then using evidence to defend myself from attacks .... how you take that. What you do with it. If you want to attack me personally.... that's your business and of no concern to me.

[bawang]

in your quest to find the real kung fu ,you trained hung gar and wing chun, and went to shang hai.


the fuk wrong wit you??

[Ray Pina]

I find it interesting that I'm being accused of insecurity by this group.... what do I have to be insecure of? Here?

Martial arts is what I dedicated the past 33 years of life towards. It's the subject I'm most comfortable talking about and a skill that I'm better than average at. At least up to standard.

I have the body, mind and skill of a fighter who has done the two times a day, six days a week, prepare to fight training. Compare those recent pics with the old video. I'm 37 now with a much stronger, versatile, responsive body.

Could it possible be that "professional" sifu types with marshmallow builds and no fighting ability are insecure of my statements... because they hit their mark?

[bawang]

i dont think you are insecure. i think you are a douchebag. and a dum dum.

[Ray Pina]

in your quest to find the real kung fu ,you trained hung gar and wing chun, and went to shang hai.


the fuk wrong wit you??

I trained internal under someone who learned directly and privately from Wong Tson Fei, who learned directly and privately from Gong Bo Tien, who learned from Ba Gua's originator.

That's the stuff I learned that was a treasure to hold onto.


As for Hung Gar and Wing Chun.... eh.

I'd love to hear what you learned, from who, and what you have done with it.

The problem here is, I've been exposed to enough great fighters to know I'm a nobody. But on this forum of posers, wannabees, fakes, talkers, accusers-and-then-duckers, self-apointed experts.... I'm a martial God! If I asked Renzo Gracie, why should I train with you.... don't even have to ask. He's a champion. A legend. He's trained champions and legends. Champions and legends (GSP) continue to seek him out to train.

I asked who's the top Kung Fu guy here and I got this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKi3VCAx75U

Do you know how funny that is? And how sad?

[bawang]

you went looking for real kung fu and did bagua? you come straight out of a cookie cutter.

and you think kung fu sucks but bagua is the real deal? the fuk man?

[Ray Pina]

No, I think Kung Fu sucks and Ba Gua sucks... especially the Ba Gua I've seen on video around here.

[bawang]

you just said its a treasure to hold on to. sense. make it.

i never said i am a kung fu badass. i do kung fu for health and culture. for fighting im planning to join my college wrestling team.

[hskwarrior]

No, I think Kung Fu sucks and Ba Gua sucks... especially the Ba Gua I've seen on video around here.

Ray, honestly. Can you answer me this......if you think kung fu sucks so bad, why are you on a kung fu forum every single day? why not a MMA forum? I'm being serious here.....is it to give your ego a boost?


Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post

But on this forum of posers, wannabees, fakes, talkers, accusers-and-then-duckers, self-apointed experts.... I'm a martial God!

Oh, never mind. For it only being one sentence it speaks volumes.

[bawang]

But on this forum of posers, wannabees, fakes, talkers, accusers-and-then-duckers, self-apointed experts.... I'm a martial God!

david ross is a kung fu god. hes not a wannabe. you are wanna be.

david ross never posed for photo. you pose for photo shirtless. you are the real poser.

Ray, honestly. Can you answer me this......if you think kung fu sucks so bad, why are you on a kung fu forum every single day? why not a MMA forum? I'm being serious here.....is it to give your ego a boost?

his teacher milked him for 10 years and his anoos hurts

this guy went looking for real kung fu and went to shanghai. what a moron.

[wenshu]

Martial arts is what I dedicated the past 33 years of life towards. It's the subject I'm most comfortable talking about and a skill that I'm better than average at. At least up to standard.

I have the body, mind and skill of a fighter who has done the two times a day, six days a week, prepare to fight training. Compare those recent pics with the old video. I'm 37 now with a much stronger, versatile, responsive body.

It must be hard when no one will ever love you as much as you love yourself. All you ever talk about is how great you think you are, that is the definition of misplaced insecurity. If you actually had any real insight to shed on the subject it would be overshadowed by your incessant self obsessed cheerleading.


I find it interesting that I'm being accused of insecurity by this group.... what do I have to be insecure of? Here?

If you hold people here in such low esteem then why do you vociferate at such lengths about your "accomplishments"; if we are all marshmellow build non fighters why the **** do you care so much about what we think about you and your life?

It doesn't really matter what anyone says to you it is all just more reason for you to talk about yourself. Reading your posts is like reading a god**** eHarmony profile.

[hskwarrior]

It must be hard when no one will ever love you as much as you love yourself. All you ever talk about is how great you think you are,

LOL he must be a Scorpio. :p


If you hold people here in such low esteem then why do you vociferate at such lengths about your "accomplishments"; if we are all marshmellow build non fighters why the **** do you care so much about what we think about you and your life?

Ego boosting in action.


It doesn't really matter what anyone says to you it is all just more reason for you to talk about yourself. Reading your posts is like reading a god**** eHarmony profile.

Can you imagine him being on a date? LMAO.

[bawang]

i havent done any form for 3 months. what i dont do is whine about it like a little bich.

[Frost]

No, I think Kung Fu sucks and Ba Gua sucks... especially the Ba Gua I've seen on video around here.

then really Ray why are you here? you are not going to change anyones mind because quite frankly those here who might agree with you to a certain extend have as much grappling and MMA expereince as you do, some have more, and those that dont well have much more TCMA expereince (including fighting) than you do

You are not going to change anyones mind because you are frankly NOT good enough to make people sit up and say wow look at him he is right.... thats not an insult its a fact based on your record you wa\lked the walk at a low level, won some and lost some, which maybe more than a lot here have done BUT its not enough to make people stop doing what they are doing, quite frankly no one here is THAT good

[hskwarrior]

You are not going to change anyones mind because you are frankly NOT good enough to make people sit up and say wow look at him he is right.... thats not an insult its a fact based on your record you wa\lked the walk at a low level, won some and lost some, which maybe more than a lot here have done BUT its not enough to make people stop doing what they are doing, quite frankly no one here is THAT good

I think he may even have reserve ego packs to give him that extra ummph LOL. :D

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_95qixGi4stE/TPk862V3sFI/AAAAAAAAB_Q/22H8AOyTXu8/s400/One+of+Us+Must+Be+Crazy%25E2%2580%25A6and+I%25E2%2 580%2599m+Pretty+Sure+It%25E2%2580%2599s+You.+Maki ng+Sense+of+the+Differences+That+Divide+Us.A+treat ise+on+winning+at+conflict+without+losing+at+love% 252C+Tim+and+Joy+Downs+capture+the+heart+of+marita l+differences..jpg

[Lebaufist]

Ray sounds like he's on the toot.

"The low spark of high heeled boys............heeled boys...........

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I honestly believe anymore that you can classify everyone that posts in this forum into 3 types:

1. Staunch Tradionalist- Everything is as it has been the last 400 years and no one dare question or pollute one of these great systems with anything cross trained.

2. Kung Fu Hater/Combat Sport Groupie- Someone who apparantly at one time trained in TCMA who got their a**ss whooped with it and now trains some type of combat sport as a hobby, with their first passion being sh****itting all over everything to do with TCMA.

3. Evolution of Kung Fu- Someone who has trained in TCMA as well as other arts, whatever they may be, who have found a balance to what they do and have made that style, THEIR style, work for them. And yes, as hard as it may seem, giving credit to the TCMA and what they gained from them.

Now Ray, here is the thing. At times I think you are a number 3, which I personally feel is the best balance and how most progressive Kung Fu stylists approach their art and their training. But at other times you come off as a number 2 which I find annoying and hypocritical.

Now here is the thing, we have ALL made derogotory comments about TCMA at one time or another, but most here give credit where it is due. This to me is the key, otherwise, it is stupid to sit on a forum for TCMA and constantly bust on it just because you had a bad experience and now hate it!!

[Lucas]

heh, you said number 2...:D

[hskwarrior]

heh, you said number 2

Ain't that some sh1t? LOL

[Ray Pina]

you just said its a treasure to hold on to. sense. make it.

What I learned from my master is bits and pieces of his expression of a culmination of his lifetime in martial arts. He has studied with many people, including Jet Li's coach when he first came to the US to do a demonstration for the president. Privately, that coach was a Hsing-I specialist. I mention the lineage of Granmaster Wong because he is famous and well known in China. His son trained the Singapore special forces.


for fighting im planning to join my college wrestling team.

Did you wrestle in high school?

[Lucas]

Ain't that some sh1t? LOL

lol...its the little things...:)

[Ray Pina]

Ray, honestly. Can you answer me this......if you think kung fu sucks so bad, why are you on a kung fu forum every single day? why not a MMA forum? I'm being serious here.....is it to give your ego a boost?

No. It's because MMA doesn't need to hear from me.... you do!

In the MMA world I'm a kook. I'm someone who will show up to train hard. I'll fight. I get the respect of everyone I train with, and believe it or not am an awesome guy and training partner with friends all over the world.... but I'm not at the level of the guys who fight on Renzo's team. Even here in Puerto Rico, I'm 37. It's over for me. If I really wanted to pull it together at this stage, I could keep fighting little nothing events with much more to lose (health) than gain (small pay). I know that about myself and am not embarrassed. I'm proud of myself. Even when I play with guys at that level, it's not easy for them. It's not hard either. They find a way.

When it comes to Kung Fu, like when I wanted to learn BJJ I went to Renzo's, I spent time and money looking for the "good stuff".... I knew this because I started when I was 4. I knew what to look for. I knew the signs.

I found one guy who was outstanding. Literally on a whole other level of thinking and ability. His famous in NYC Chinatown for his pole and sword. He was taking challenges when I was with him years ago, when he was 65 years old.

That's the tradition of martial arts I come from.

So when I say something here it's not because I'm nit picking or wanting to talk down about Kung Fu. It's because I'm embarrassed by it. Not only are these charlatans representing themselves falsely (this is my issue with internal masters who never compared with contemporaries in boxing, MMA, etc) they have taken control of TCMA and have directed it away from its true state of being.

To have this many "masters" and none of them with boxing, kick boxing, MMA record? That's ridiculous!!!!! Never mind win or lose.... the ability, desire, confidence to go!!!!!

A gentlemen here spent time digging up past losses of mine, accusing me (correctly) of drug abuse and other unflattering things.... and then I say, hey, I'll be in our area. If you're half as good as you say, beat me real quick and Happy Thanksgiving..... now he doesn't have the time for me.

Pathetic!

Your a man! And a martial arts coach, master, sifu!

You open your mouth to stand by it and defend it! To easy here to use the fingertips.

That's not martial arts.

And these are the same people talking about honor.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

lol...its the little things...:)

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/ali_larter-varsity_blues-19.jpg

[hskwarrior]

No. It's because MMA doesn't need to hear from me.... you do!

Nah I'm cool. you can talk to the rest if their willing to listen.....me....not so much.

[bawang]

Did you wrestle in high school?

yes i did. is there a problem officer?

[Lucas]

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/ali_larter-varsity_blues-19.jpg

lol now those are the little things that are best in life

[wenshu]

Quit joking around.

This is serious internet martial arts discussion business.

[Ray Pina]

yes i did. is there a problem officer?

No. I was just curious. I know many colleges take their wrestling very seriously. I was wondering if you were recruited and if not, what's it like trying to walk on.

[bawang]

i was recruited in 07. then i ran out of money and had to drop out of skoos. the coach saw potential. im hoping to get a last chance to compete winter or next year, before i graduate. what i dont do is brag about it like a little bich. or saying how its so much better than kung fu.



you got your ass kicked trying to use kung fu. guess what? so did i. i quit kung fu after high school for 2 years. but i dont whine about it. like a little bich. you sound more like a teenage girl than a grown man.

i know your ass hurts, do clenches and dont strain it and it will heal.

[David Jamieson]

Try to maintain a modicum of decorum will you, there's some good chaps.
Thank you so much.
:)

[bawang]

im sorry dacvid jameison, i think the squats are making me ornery.

[David Jamieson]

You're not misspelling my name correctly!
That's almost legible!

more squats for you!

[Lucas]

Let not thy mind be overmuch crossed by unwise men at thronged meetings of folk; for oft these speak worse than they wot of; lest thou be called a dastard, and art minded to think that thou art even as is said; slay such an one on another day, and so reward his ugly talk.

as a naturally inclined mediator, i will provide this quote, i think this summarizes what a lot of people are feeling when strife starts up in discussions regarding the validity of martial arts training.

this is not directed toward anyone in particular, but rather all of us. we all at one point or another see 'the other guy' as those unwise men, and see ourselves as those whom may be refered to as the dastards when we question the men at the throng. how many times have we seen the offer to slay our opposing party on another day to reward his talk that we see as ugly?

i'm also not making excuses for anyones behavior, but rather give this as a point of thought to consider as to why some people react to certain things in certain ways.

[Faruq]

im sorry dacvid jameison, i think the squats are making me ornery.

Bawang Shi Zu, you're an evil genius!!! ROTFLOML!!!

PS. I think this has to be the most successful thread I've ever started here! Yaay!

[TenTigers]

Lucas, I think you spend much too much worrying about men wearing throngs.
I think it's yucky.

[Lucas]

rofl!!!!!!!

[MasterKiller]

http://forgetomori.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011072023_6166730122.jpg

[MasterKiller]

http://blog.stanis.ru/img/35762.jpg

[MasterKiller]

http://forgetomori.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/toolleeesprogramm.jpg

[GeneChing]

I just don't want to know where the hell you spend your time surfing on the web.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

I just don't want to know where the hell you spend your time surfing on the web.

:eek:

I am most disturbed when he posts mountains of gluten and fat with hair and a face! :eek:

weird angle shots? not so bad... lol

[wenshu]

I find MK's moderating style to be most effective.

[Ray Pina]

i was recruited in 07. then i ran out of money and had to drop out of skoos.

So sorry to hear. Shame when things like that happen to kind hearted, eloquent people.

[bawang]

this is why white people cant have the real kung fu.

[Lucas]

this is why white people cant have the real kung fu.

thats why we settled for the women :p

[Lucas]

I just don't want to know where the hell you spend your time surfing on the web.

:eek:

MK doesnt need to surf the web, he takes all those photos himself! :eek:

[hskwarrior]

NO! we don't need to see MK in any kind of revealing anything!!!!!!

[Lucas]

hey check out Liu Hailong, hes pretty good fighter.

[hskwarrior]

hey check out Liu Hailong, hes pretty good fighter.

he's got a Choy Lee Fut background bro....i met him in Guangzhou in 2001. he was china's champ back then as well.

[Lucas]

oh sweet! now that im starting to look into chinas top combat sport fighters im seeing a pretty good amount of sanda guys kicking butt in muay thai and mma.

now, i know that sanda is in and of itself a form of mixed martial arts, in that a lot of the fighters have what seems to be backgrounds in kungfu, boxing, muay thai and tae kwon do. but at the same time you cant discount someones background, unless they themselves do. its a pretty safe bet that a good portion of chinese fighters will have backgrounds in chinese martial arts.

[hskwarrior]

now, i know that sanda is in and of itself a form of mixed martial arts, in that a lot of the fighters have what seems to be backgrounds in kungfu, boxing, muay thai and tae kwon do. but at the same time you cant discount someones background, unless they themselves do. its a pretty safe bet that a good portion of chinese fighters will have backgrounds in chinese martial arts

China won't let go of something that will give them big face. but yeah, lots of choy lee fut fighters (sorry, i'm so pro CLF) from China entering the arena these days. because from a striking point of view, CLF has the right tools meaning basic strikes (knee, elbow,long, med, short range), not to mention spinning back fists and sow choys, joint locks and take downs.

[bawang]

liu hailong never trained clf. he starred in a movie called clf.

[Lucas]

so slow at work today all ive been doing is watching fights lol

whats tough is finding out what actually makes up a sanda fighters game....

[hskwarrior]

liu hailong never trained clf. he starred in a movie called clf.

thats not what i was told. the person who introduced us was a Buk Sing sifu in guangzhou. info could be mistaken. but, others fighters representing China DO have CLF background.

but this is Choy Lee Fut in china training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gat0DPowqZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMjNG-eHU3s

[Taixuquan99]

I like technical discussion of kung fu more than this cr@p. You know, the stuff that Sanjuro, You KnowWho, Ross, TGY, and a few others provide.

This BS is a about twenty steps backwards. Aside from the trolling, which is what it deserves. Bawang has honor.

[Lucas]

:mad::eek::confused::rolleyes::):D:cool:

[Ray Pina]

this is why white people cant have the real kung fu.

Amazing the mods let your un off at the mouth with personal and race-related remarks.

But it's a shame...

not to get into a d!ck measuring contest with an Asian (about as fair as whipping "guys who just wanted to spar") but when I got recruited to play college football I wound up going to school for free.:)

Shame. Shame.

The end result of martial arts is quality of life. With all your garbage you spew I thought maybe you were a seasoned Kung Fu man with a nice cushy job and corner office... and now I see your a college drop out what, at your mom's house using her internet?

The karma of things.

[Ray Pina]

I like technical discussion of kung fu more than this cr@p.


Me too. But as soon as something is posted requiring objective thinking, requiring some proof of claims.... people get all bent out of shape and start making personal attacks. Which is just beyond me. People who's Kung Fu is made of glass shouldn't throw stones.

In the end, I'm just asking questions:

Why are their so many masters of so many styles and so few (if any) fighters that can compare with modern standards.

Someone offered not everyone wants to be a Mike Tyson.... true! And not everyone is physically capable. But how do you deal with a Mike Tyson? How to do with a more powerful man who charges in but has controlled striking and discipline of movement.

BJJ has proven an answer to this dilemma? Taiji is a great theory. Kugn Fu's theory regarding force and resistance also seems promising..... but the results? There's been little if any testing. No results.

[Lucas]

what did you think about that shuai jiao fighter i linked for that legends fight Ray? im honestly just curious about your opinion.

[Ray Pina]

so slow at work today all ive been doing is watching fights lol

whats tough is finding out what actually makes up a sanda fighters game....

Thai Boxing kicks, striking and clinch. Fundamental throws.

[hskwarrior]

not to get into a d!ck measuring contest with an Asian (about as fair as whipping "guys who just wanted to spar"

So how many asian men have you whipped it out on and compared with? You just insinuated that you naturally have a larger kok than a an asian person would. How ironic is that?

[Ray Pina]

what did you think about that shuai jiao fighter i linked for that legends fight Ray? im honestly just curious about your opinion.

If it's the one with the two videos posted above he looks very good!!!!! Very disciplined in his movements. Power. Aggression.... looks pretty fierce.

One thing though, in the one video when they showed the gym.... I saw all the heavy bags hanging, guys in the ring, guys doing pad work.... I didn't see anyone in TCMA uniform, nobody doing forms, no weapons on the wall, no lions in the corner, no incense burning or alter.

I also see him pick his front foot up in a Thai Boxing fashion. The Thai Pad work... That makes sense to me since he's fighting.

I didn't see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFMmsWc-E_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJDOinr-xzg&feature=related

or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKDzbmbjgCw


or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iQELK8LrdM

[Ray Pina]

So how many asian men have you whipped it out on and compared with? You just insinuated that you naturally have a larger kok than a an asian person would. How ironic is that?

I played football and other sports my whole life in a very mixed community Newark, NJ. I had Asian friends.... so athletic showers.

There's also a thing called Asian porn:D

[hskwarrior]

One thing though, in the one video when they showed the gym.... I saw all the heavy bags hanging, guys in the ring, guys doing pad work.... I didn't see anyone in TCMA uniform, nobody doing forms, no weapons on the wall, no lions in the corner, no incense burning or alter.

that doesn't mean they weren't representing a TCMA style. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

I played football and other sports my whole life in a very mixed community Newark, NJ. I had Asian friends.... so athletic showers.

There's also a thing called Asian porn

Ray, the more i know about you the more nervous i get hahahaha. STOP LOOKING AT ASIAN MENS PACKAGES BRO........LMAO

[Lucas]

See i think that the uniforms, weapons, lion dancing, incense and all that stuff is an element of TCMA, but not a requirement. The true tradition is being combat effective, imo. so as long as you have that, and continue a to work at being effective in the ranges of combat you want to specialize in, then you're golden.

all that other stuff is cultural attachments. fighting is universal.

so like for instance, chinese martial arts based sanda fighters will have something like this: CLF and Shuai Jiao, probably with cross training in muay thai and western boxing. so from my personal point of view, thats still a tcma.

[Ray Pina]

See i think that the uniforms, weapons, lion dancing, incense and all that stuff is an element of TCMA, but not a requirement. The true tradition is being combat effective, imo. so as long as you have that, and continue a to work at being effective in the ranges of combat you want to specialize in, then you're golden.

all that other stuff is cultural attachments. fighting is universal.

so like for instance, chinese martial arts based sanda fighters will have something like this: CLF and Shuai Jiao, probably with cross training in muay thai and western boxing. so from my personal point of view, thats still a tcma.

I think those things are a hindrance, when it's forced or decorative.

What I mean by this is that I train BJJ in Puerto Rico. I'm learning BJJ but I'm hanging out with Ricans, there's guys playing basketball outside with loud music, food stands on the way home.... you cant help but absorb the culture.

If you're training with a Chinese teacher, you'll have those late night dinners, the drives home, the time at the house.... I did.

But one of the things most liberating about MMA is that none of that stuff is there. We're there to sweat and train hard..... think about this. Of the five kwoons I circulated in in the NYC area, only one had mats. Most had vinyl over concrete.... how are you going to train throws, etc. on that?

[Lucas]

Ya I totally get what you're saying, alot of that was there while I was training kungfu also, but we had portable matts we took out for actual throws. When I was training there it was hardbound carpet on concrete in a triple wide garage. We did all our tumbling without mats tho, even down to diving over the pole shoulder rolls. Now I dont train in a CMA school, I'm training judo now. Pretty serious work outs, heck we got a guy crosstraining there that's doing aubu daubi (sp) competition. That's what like 12 guys only in that one. While the focus there is all grappling, I dont think its any harder work than I put in at the CMA school. Diff skillset, alot of the same conditioning tho. Its a free environment in that we have wrestlers bjj and judo, if it works use it in sparring, you won't hear oh that's not judo, etc.

So basically what I'm saying is that my experience is a bit diff than yours. I left the CMA school because it slowly turned into a modern wushu school, which is fine but not what I'm after, but while i was there, when it was what i wanted, it was solid.

sifu had a small school and did not promote, the signs were in Vietnamese, so gradually attracted young Viet kids who wants to be jet Li. Sifu supplied the demand, actually his modern wushu teacher was one of the same guys that trained jet Li.

Well...now I lost my train of thought...old times and fond memories.

[bawang]

Amazing the mods let your un off at the mouth with personal and race-related remarks.
im not racist. im not white.



not to get into a d!ck measuring contest with an Asian .
its not the size of the boat, its the motion in the ocean.


and now I see your a college drop out what, at your mom's house using her internet?


yes. is there a problem officer?

[Taixuquan99]

Me too. But as soon as something is posted requiring objective thinking, requiring some proof of claims.... people get all bent out of shape and start making personal attacks. Which is just beyond me. People who's Kung Fu is made of glass shouldn't throw stones.

Funny, for the most part, the posters I specifically mentioned don't do that much.


In the end, I'm just asking questions

No, you're expecting the martial arts world to be what you want it to be, while crapping on teachers who have produced fighters, while ironically complaining about traditionalists who crap on fighters. And complaining that you aren't a famous kung fu guy. And claiming to be the only internalist fighter in discussion with Mike Patterson. And apparently bragging about your knowledge of underage hooker rates in Shanghai.

I've not seen one discussion of bagua techniques come from you, only the vaguest terms, so what use are you on a discussion board? Ross was good about discussing concrete techniques from TMA, Patterson was making a good show on it, you argue about mma and tma. Most of the guys who I read on here have fought full contact, and all of them have more content to their posts.


Why are their so many masters of so many styles and so few (if any) fighters that can compare with modern standards.

Because they didn't train with aliveness, flash forward to 2011 now.


Someone offered not everyone wants to be a Mike Tyson.... true! And not everyone is physically capable. But how do you deal with a Mike Tyson? How to do with a more powerful man who charges in but has controlled striking and discipline of movement.

Tyson would kill you dead.


BJJ has proven an answer to this dilemma?

Mike Tyson would kill most bjj guys dead.


Taiji is a great theory. Kung Fu's theory regarding force and resistance also seems promising

Judo books have judo techs. Same with boxing. Kung fu books have "every move is for everything" but no specifics, guys online talk about "theory" but not techniques of kung fu as specific. But old kung fu books talked about the techniques. And, funny, they weren't all defenses to straight punches.

Fighting doesn't solve an innate lack of experience in the methods hiding as "principals," fight related training can, backed with availability of common kung fu info.

Thus, discussion of the techniques of kung fu, and entraining of them, will go along faster if all conversation is not reduced to "I'm the martial police, answer my questions," and will go even faster if you don't drive away half the guys who've trained full contact fighters who bring up way more info on kung fu than you seem able to.

[Taixuquan99]

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/302260_10150316523127976_591602975_7780163_9391260 80_n.jpg

[Ray Pina]

No, you're expecting the martial arts world to be what you want it to be, while crapping on teachers who have produced fighters, while ironically complaining about traditionalists who crap on fighters. And complaining that you aren't a famous kung fu guy. And claiming to be the only internalist fighter in discussion with Mike Patterson. And apparently bragging about your knowledge of underage hooker rates in Shanghai.

I'm complaining that the martial world should be martial, that I have proven my technique in real combat where other masters only do demo video and that Ross, if he's going to take a higher stance than me in martial arts he should be man enough to step up.



I've not seen one discussion of bagua techniques come from you, only the vaguest terms, so what use are you on a discussion board? Ross was good about discussing concrete techniques from TMA, Patterson was making a good show on it, you argue about mma and tma. Most of the guys who I read on here have fought full contact, and all of them have more content to their posts.


Who want to learn technique from a message board?

The two men you noted, Ross/Patterson: zero sanctioned fights. I will add the same for Black Taoist, another noted "master."




Tyson would kill you dead.

Verdad. It's true. I'm not on his level and most TCMAers are not on mine.



Fighting doesn't solve an innate lack of experience in the methods hiding as "principals," fight related training can, backed with availability of common kung fu info.

True. Though the inability of an entire collection of Kung Fu styles, not just a single style, to produce even a insubstantial number of modern capable fighters might tip off that there's a problem somewhere.



Thus, discussion of the techniques of kung fu, and entraining of them, will go along faster if all conversation is not reduced to "I'm the martial police, answer my questions," and will go even faster if you don't drive away half the guys who've trained full contact fighters who bring up way more info on kung fu than you seem able to.

What's the rush?

Half the guys who've trained full contact fighters here? We have what, thousands of members to this forum? Of all the masters, sifu, coaches, how many have sanctioned fighters... 2? 3? 10? That's pathetic!

Maybe less discussion and more actual training? That would be my discussion input.

I'm not a coach. I'm retired from fighting. But if I was a coach or a fighter in a group of thousands and only a handful of figthers... if a dozen of individual styles falling under "Kung Fu" worldwide can only produce a small number of fighters... and those guys are actually doing Thai Boxing and BJJ, what's the point?

Again, I charge that Kung Fu is for men and women who don't want to fight but do form and embrace the culture of Kung Fu.... similar to Trekkies who aren't scientists.

[MasterKiller]

The two men you noted, Ross/Patterson: zero sanctioned fights. Incorrect. Ross has fought. I believe he lost both his fights, though.

Some people are Bill Belicheck. Some are Tom Brady.

[Frost]

I'm complaining that the martial world should be martial, that I have proven my technique in real combat where other masters only do demo video and that Ross, if he's going to take a higher stance than me in martial arts he should be man enough to step up.
.

He can take a higher stance because he has trained guys that beat you and who have won in alot of different full contact enviorments using his TCMA and BJJ, so what if he doesnt fight, hes older than yo and you dont fight anymore:confused:

And other masters...so now Ray you are a master of TCMA?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ross trains fighters and he brings in experts to give his fighters the best instruction possible.
I h ave trained under fighters and under "coaches/teachers" only, by far the best training has been under teachers.
Very few fighters are good teachers, they tend to think what works for THEM works for all and that is hallmark of a BAD teacher IMO.
There are many great coaches that never fought professional, or had losing records or were just journeymen.
No need to name them, we all know who they are.
You judge a teacher by the success and skill of their students.
Period.

[omarthefish]

Ross trains fighters and he brings in experts to give his fighters the best instruction possible.
I h ave trained under fighters and under "coaches/teachers" only, by far the best training has been under teachers.
Very few fighters are good teachers, they tend to think what works for THEM works for all and that is hallmark of a BAD teacher IMO.
There are many great coaches that never fought professional, or had losing records or were just journeymen.
No need to name them, we all know who they are.
You judge a teacher by the success and skill of their students.
Period.
WFT baby!:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

WFT baby!:mad:

WTF is WFT ?

[Ray Pina]

He can take a higher stance because he has trained guys that beat you and who have won in alot of different full contact enviorments using his TCMA and BJJ

His man beat me fair and square. And I admire what coach Ross has done as far as his team. With that said, he paired me, an internal stylist with no MMA experience or wrestling experience with his students, who already had two fights.

See: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/E0844595951100EA/John-Salgado/

It's not the two fights. But as someone who has fought, consider how much training goes into just the preparation for a fight. Invaluable! I didn't know that then. I just showed up to fight and do my best.

I learned a lot. But is says a lot about these little under-the-radar events. The people that run it/profit from it are very close to the coaches who provide the bodies which fill the seats and the refs and judges.

An example is that Ross' guys all weighed in the night before. I show up to weigh in 6 or 8 hours before a fight and have to sit around.


so what if he doesnt fight, hes older than yo and you dont fight anymore:confused:
Right now, due to training-related injuries (shoulder) and an upcoming marriage and general shift in focus, I'm not signing on to fight anymore. The guys I've been fighting now are all professional fighters. The level is too high to not be 100% focused and living for it.... I never lived for it. My goal is to be a great writer, not a fighter. Just as a martial artists, the fighting was there.

Ross is another matter. It's personal. And that would be a beating not a fight. And if he's too old to back up his own words by himself, he should be more careful with what comes out of his mouth.



And other masters...so now Ray you are a master of TCMA?

Hell no. The style I have most claim of knowing is Issin-Ryu. The material I use the most is some hand skills I learned from my master. I got a small percentage of what my master had to offer..... with that said, I, a student, have done more than the masters being put forward by the members here. Especially in the world of internal.

Has Mr. Patterson, Black Taoist, that Texas Ba GUa master.... have they ever stepped outside of TCMA and compered their skills with fighters? Boxers? MMAers?

These are people being put forward as the best representatives of their styles. It would be closer to say Don King is the best boxer living right now.

These people are making videos, have students and are looked upon as the holders of what? I'm sorry if I'm coming off as crazy. I have a hard time understanding.... the best hockey players have never played on a team? The best ball players aren't in the major leagues? The best football payers aren't in the NFL?

But the best TCMAers are on the internet talking. Makes a lot of sense.

[Ray Pina]

You judge a teacher by the success and skill of their students.
Period.

That's true... but that's not how you judge someone's martial art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's true... but that's not how you judge someone's martial art.

You judge a MA but what it CLAIMS to do and what there is EVIDENCE of it doing.


See, this here is a very valid point and one I agree with you:

These people are making videos, have students and are looked upon as the holders of what? I'm sorry if I'm coming off as crazy. I have a hard time understanding.... the best hockey players have never played on a team? The best ball players aren't in the major leagues? The best football payers aren't in the NFL?

[Dragonzbane76]

This more of a personal issue with u 2 not much dealing with martial arts.

[Ray Pina]

Incorrect. Ross has fought. I believe he lost both his fights, though.

I saw one video years ago of him on a lei tei. I give anyone respect for stepping up, so I'll leave it at that. COuldn't find any sanctioned record though. Were the fights San Da or MMA?

For the most part, I agree with Ross opinions.

If I was to raise an issue though, it was that he spent his best years training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAMvJmBcR0

Now you go to his website (http://www.nysanda.com/) and it advertises Muay Thai and BJJ?

Let's be honest, before my hiatus from here, you yourself were a defender of TCMA, form, etc.... your have a shaolin monk as your avatar. Now you produce MMA fighters.

There are tough, smart guys eager and willing to take instruction and go make a name for themselves. And fighting, simply, isn't rocket science. One can take DVDs, learn the details and pass them along.... and then let others fight and bleed and sweat. Take credit for the wins. And the losses... well, it happens.

That's fine. I'm just asking to recognize the difference between his guys spending their best years training for real and fighting and the guy sitting in the background, holding the water bottle.

[Ray Pina]

You judge a MA but what it CLAIMS to do and what there is EVIDENCE of it doing.


And this is all I'm saying: I'm a lifetime student of martial arts. I'm intellectual, not a thug. A college grad with a job as a writer... yet what I have learned has allowed me to go out and at least stand up to what's considered the modern level of martial arts without having to take steroids, lift tons of weight, train full time and be overly aggressive.

But my technique, not claiming to be the best, is functional. I know this because it has been tested.

I haven't made or sold videos, written a book, have a web site or have paying students. I'm trying to understand how people who have done nothing but form demonstrations have risen to such heights in martial arts? It's a marketing work of genus.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And this is all I'm saying: I'm a lifetime student of martial arts. I'm intellectual, not a thug. A college grad with a job as a writer... yet what I have learned has allowed me to go out and at least stand up to what's considered the modern level of martial arts without having to take steroids, lift tons of weight, train full time and be overly aggressive.

But my technique, not claiming to be the best, is functional. I know this because it has been tested.

I haven't made or sold videos, written a book, have a web site or have paying students. I'm trying to understand how people who have done nothing but form demonstrations have risen to such heights in martial arts? It's a marketing work of genus.

Caveat emptor.
Look, if people are selling then someone is buying, its just that simple.
I've bleed and been broken for my MA.
I competed actively in either Judo, boxing, Kyokushin, MT and MMA from the 80's till the year 2000 when I got married.
I competed in MMA when it was Vale Tudo and was done on indian reservations so the cops wouldn't get involved, or done by the HA's in their bars or strip clubs.
I fought because I wanted to, sometimes because I had to.
Fought for my MA ( to test myself) and fought cause it was my job.
So what if others are making a living out of selling a fantasy?
People only believe what they WANT to believe.
reality sucks.
It hurts and marks you for life and I don't mean superficially.
The vast majority don't want that.
And that is how it has always been.
The MA NOW are for everyone but that was NOT always the case.
In TCMA there is a place for fighters, it just isn't the same place where people go for exercising or to do "kung fu", that's all.

[MasterKiller]

Let's be honest, before my hiatus from here, you yourself were a defender of TCMA, form, etc.... your have a shaolin monk as your avatar. Now you produce MMA fighters.

There are tough, smart guys eager and willing to take instruction and go make a name for themselves. And fighting, simply, isn't rocket science. One can take DVDs, learn the details and pass them along.... and then let others fight and bleed and sweat. Take credit for the wins. And the losses... well, it happens.

That's fine. I'm just asking to recognize the difference between his guys spending their best years training for real and fighting and the guy sitting in the background, holding the water bottle. The implication here, of course, is that you think others haven't sweat and bled for what they pass on; in particular, you seem to direct that accusation at me.

Let me remind you that I started training MMA and submission wrestling in March of 2005. Well before you. I competed in my first submission wrestling tournament in 2006. Well before you. I have medals, too, I just don't walk around my house wearing them.

In fact, when you were wasting your time at Throwdowns, I was one of the people telling you that you were better suited to fight MMA if you wanted to really test yourself.

What I did was not dissimilar from you. I was honestly getting bored with my TCMA training and sought out others to push me in new directions. After learning what else what out there from Ross and others, I found people who could train me and teach me what I wanted. And I still surround myself with as many knowlegeable people as possible. The guy who helps me run classes trained Muay Thai under Mike Parker for years, and I have two college wrestlers (UNLV and OKlahoma) who also assist.

I never abandoned TCMA, fully. Sh1t, I just had an article published in KFTC magazine. But I make fun of it like an older brother who teases his younger brother...and I certainly don't have an issue with people calling bullsh1t when it's warranted.

Look, I'm 38, and I was already behind the curve in a lot of respects when I started training MMA at 33. I'm married, with two kids, a full-time writing job, I coach soccer, I have a bad back and arthritis in my neck...

But that doesn't mean I never trained hard. Right now i have a broken right hand. I didn't get that from hitting rewind on a DVD player.

I admire that you train hard and are committed. But frankly I find your arrogance and solipsism exhausting.

[Frost]

The implication here, of course, is that you think others haven't sweat and bled for what they pass on; in particular, you seem to direct that accusation at me.

Let me remind you that I started training MMA and submission wrestling in March of 2005. Well before you. I competed in my first submission wrestling tournament in 2006. Well before you. I have medals, too, I just don't walk around my house wearing them.

In fact, when you were wasting your time at Throwdowns, I was one of the people telling you that you were better suited to fight MMA if you wanted to really test yourself.

What I did was not dissimilar from you. I was honestly getting bored with my TCMA training and sought out others to push me in new directions. After learning what else what out there from Ross and others, I found people who could train me and teach me what I wanted. And I still surround myself with as many knowlegeable people as possible. The guy who helps me run classes trained Muay Thai under Mike Parker for years, and I have two college wrestlers (UNLV and OKlahoma) who also assist.

I never abandoned TCMA, fully. Sh1t, I just had an article published in KFTC magazine. But I make fun of it like an older brother who teases his younger brother...and I certainly don't have an issue with people calling bullsh1t when it's warranted.

Look, I'm 38, and I was already behind the curve in a lot of respects when I started training MMA at 33. I'm married, with two kids, a full-time writing job, I coach soccer, I have a bad back and arthritis in my neck...

But that doesn't mean I never trained hard. Right now i have a broken right hand. I didn't get that from hitting rewind on a DVD player.

I admire that you train hard and are committed. But frankly I find your arrogance and solipsism exhausting.

nicely put, can i play too? Im 36 I did my first grappling comps in 2004, have medals too (well trophies no medals in those days lol) , started MMA even before that (my first sparring partner was a certain paul daley) and I can remember when you Ross, Merry and several others told him not to bother with the throwdowns because of the level of competition at them, and then were proved right when Ray finally entered the cage

And i agree with everything you wrote

[hskwarrior]

****NNNNNN......ya'll are some straight up young bucks :D

[Frost]

****NNNNNN......ya'll are some straight up young bucks :D

its not a d^ck measuring contest but i think we are all tying to say no one here is THAT good or unique that they can sound THAT condesending to others (well maybe Ronin can but hes canadian and too nice to do that sort of thing) :)

[hskwarrior]

its not a d^ck measuring contest but i think we are all tying to say no one here is THAT good or unique that they can sound THAT condesending to others (well maybe Ronin can but hes canadian and too nice to do that sort of thing)

I know. totally agree. the best thing for me is the stay out from certain conversations. but to hear ya'll talk about being 30 something.....mudda chukka i just turned 43.....im still trying to adjust to that hahha

[Jimbo]

Buncha kids ;)...wait 'til you're 48 (like me). And I KNOW I'm not the oldest guy on these boards.

I'm probably lucky, because most people mistake me for early 30s, lol.

[hskwarrior]

Buncha kids ...wait 'til you're 48 (like me). And I KNOW I'm not the oldest guy on these boards.

I'm probably lucky, because most people mistake me for early 30s, lol.

Dammmmmmm you're old! LOL i'll be there soon bro

[TenTigers]

54 here. I been doin this when y'all were sh1ttin yeller!:D

[TenTigers]

Buncha kids ;)
I'm probably lucky, because most people mistake me for early 30s, lol.
me too. That's cuz I use Grecian Formula. I'm still waiting for them to come out with lo-rise brief depends, though. The other ones stick up out of my speedos.

[hskwarrior]

WTF are you wearing speedo's fer ya wierdo!!!!!

[Ray Pina]

Let me remind you that I started training MMA and submission wrestling in March of 2005. Well before you

And now you're a professional coach? I'm told here I'm not suited to discuss Wing Chun after as many years of study

... my first MMA fight was in Sept. of 2006. Yours?




Right now i have a broken right hand. I didn't get that from hitting rewind on a DVD player.

I admire that you train hard and are committed. But frankly I find your arrogance and solipsism exhausting.

I'm sorry about your hand. Injuries suck. I broke my clavicle 2 years ago and now its FDed up... seeing a specialist next Thursday.

The truth though, I'm actually a very humble guy and say what I say to get guys thinking here. I am not a master.

I did play college football though. So if I see a bunch of half-tards playing flag football drunk in the parking lot of a Giants game, and then they start telling me what is what regarding football. I don't think it's out of place, compared to them, to say I'm a GOD of football.... 1st Team all State in HS. Captain. Scholarship to ****ty inner city school.

Regarding Kung FU and my message here. Exactly the same. If these guys are masters, I'm a Grand Grand Grand Grand Grand Master!!!!!!

[Jimbo]

me too. That's cuz I use Grecian Formula. I'm still waiting for them to come out with lo-rise brief depends, though. The other ones stick up out of my speedos.

LMAO!!!

Only a few months ago, a younger woman guessed my age at 29 or 30. Unfortunately, other Asians tend to put my age somewhat higher.

[Lucas]

the most recent E-Zine article here is so relevant to this topic. Its a good read.

http://kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=996

[Taixuquan99]

To claim to be the internal master because one fought, one should be able to point out a plethora of direct techniques one did from their internal style. Same with any kung fu.

Principals are not techniques and do not make up styles.

If one is on forums to spread their fame, good luck. Most long timers are comparing notes and shooting the breeze. No one else is here to fulfill your fanatic quest of unifying 1500 styles into one training approach. Sorry.

Ross brought more content to the site than you so far. That's the truth. AND he made YOUR point better than you.

Challenging older men is, frankly, demeaning oneself and being disrespectful. He looked out for his student, got them an easy match, your teacher didn't.

The irony is that you've accused Ross of being a knuckleheaded kickboxer. You are apparently unaware that that role is completely covered here. Please do not follow up with youtube links proving the grey conspiracy to flouridate North America.

[omarthefish]

WTF is WFT ?

My pron hand is getting carpal tunnel I guess. Is it my fault the Q and the W are right next to each other?

It was supposed to say QFT! :mad:

[Pork Chop]

yikes... where to start on this one.... this has some ugly bits... didn't want to get in the middle of all the fighting, but I thought some things needed to be said; no offense intended.

first, college wrestling makes a fraction of a percent of the money that college football does, especially after title IX effectively killed a lot of university wrestling teams across the country, so no, they tend not to give scholarships for wrestling.

two, if you look at those vids and claim it's muay thai, then you have absolutely no background in muay thai. i challenge you to find video of a single muay thai camp in Thailand that does combos like that, throws kicks with the weight like that, throws punches like that, uses that guard, or has those mechanics. San da is it's own thing and tcma has made its contributions to that.

three, interesting you bring up Tyson, cus d'amato never had a single sanctioned fight but he invented the peekaboo style and created hall of famers floyd patterson, mike tyson, and teddy atlas. d'amato's in the boxing hall of fame himself and he'd probably stab you if you showed up at his gym to fight him.

[wenshu]

d'amato's in the boxing hall of fame himself and he'd probably stab you if you showed up at his gym to fight him.

Brilliant.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Considering Cus died back in 1985, I doubt he would be stabbing anyone, but a valid point nonetheless. :p

[Ray Pina]

first, college wrestling makes a fraction of a percent of the money that college football does
Agreed


if you look at those vids and claim it's muay thai, then you have absolutely no background in muay thai.

I have zero background in Muay Thai. I also have zero background in Lacross. But I can distinguish it from field hockey, where I also have no experience. As a fighter, I have spent time around Muay Thai but its style of figthing doesn't appeal to me.

I claim its Muay Tai, well, that's what Ross advertises: http://www.nysanda.com/ It't not Lama on his website. And certainly not in the ring.

This is straight from masterkiller above:
. The guy who helps me run classes trained Muay Thai under Mike Parker for years, and I have two college wrestlers (UNLV and OKlahoma) who also assist.


These TCMA folks who go on to develop San Da and MMA fighters, they're using American Muay Tai. I'm not saying it's the real deal and I don't think they are either. Otherwise their fighters would be competing and winning international Muay Thai events.


cus d'amato never had a single sanctioned fight but he invented the peekaboo style and created hall of famers floyd patterson, mike tyson, and teddy atlas.

Don't need to go back that far. I already admit that Ross, a non fighter, has produced good fighters. There's a movie coming out this week about great baseball being produced by computer statistics.

[bawang]

basically you got milked for 10 years, tried to use movie kung fu and lost, and your ego cant take it.

an omega pretending to be alpha.




Don't need to go back that far. I already admit that Ross, a non fighter, has produced good fighters. There's a movie coming out this week about great baseball being produced by computer statistics.

david ross couldnt make the chinatown kung fu work, so he train his students for his past mistakes and follow his vision of what kung fu should be. you on the other hand is a 40 year old man about my dads age, that takes photo of his wrinkled hairy chest half naked.

[hskwarrior]

his wrinkled hairy chest half naked

You sound turned on by that.......uhhhhhhhhhhh OK.

[Ray Pina]

To claim to be the internal master because one fought, one should be able to point out a plethora of direct techniques one did from their internal style. Same with any kung fu.

That's exactly what I'm asking for. Where are these fighting masters with technique to reference?



Principals are not techniques and do not make up styles..
Principles are the foundation of techniques which in turn make up a style. It's starts with principle.

[Ray Pina]

[QUOTE=bawang;1134854]basically you got milked for 10 years, tried to use movie kung fu and lost, and your ego cant take it.

Which video did you see?

The one I posted has me jamming, wedging, following and generally beating people. In and out of the ring.

Not saying I'm great. Not saying I'm a master or even good. Saying I have more evidence to support my claims than most of the people considered "high ranking" in TCMA.

I posted the same video a few months back with the time frames to call out specific TCMA techniques and it was received well. If you have an eye, you'll see it.

Now this is someone without a coach, sparring partners or a corner at the time. If those techniques were nourished in a favorable environment, it could produce a modern competitor.... if combined with BJJ/Judo, etc.

[hskwarrior]

Not saying I'm great. Not saying I'm a master or even good. Saying I have more evidence to support my claims than most of the people considered "high ranking" in TCMA.


No No......you're the martial God. 'member? :confused:

[MasterKiller]

This is straight from masterkiller above:

These TCMA folks who go on to develop San Da and MMA fighters, they're using American Muay Tai. I'm not saying it's the real deal and I don't think they are either. Otherwise their fighters would be competing and winning international Muay Thai events.

The leg catches, throws, and elbows I use are certainly Chinese and come from my Kung Fu experience. The primary kick in my Chinese style is a lead-leg front push kick. We use that religiously. Most of the kicks we use come from my Kung Fu training. The seizing and parrying we use is Chinese.

The primary hand formation in my Kung Fu style is a willow palm. It just doesn't translate well into MMA/Kickboxing.

We use Muay Thai round kicks, knees, punching drills, clinch drills, and shielding.

We use BJJ positional dominance, transitions, and submissions.

We use freestyle wrestling takedowns, clinching, and transitions.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all Kung Fu, even when it isn't.

[Pork Chop]

As far as I'm concerned, it's all Kung Fu, even when it isn't.

reminds me of a quote a friend once said:
"If I get caught with an axe kick; even if it's not in any of my forms, if I take that technique and make it my own - it's part of my kung fu."

[Ray Pina]

basically you got milked for 10 years, tried to use movie kung fu and lost, and your ego cant take it.

Which video did you see?

The one I posted has me jamming, wedging, following and generally beating people. In and out of the ring.

Not saying I'm great. Not saying I'm a master or even good. Saying I have more evidence to support my claims than most of the people considered "high ranking" in TCMA.

I posted the same video a few months back with the time frames to call out specific TCMA techniques and it was received well. If you have an eye, you'll see it.

[bawang]

If those techniques were nourished in a favorable environment, it could produce a modern competitor.... if combined with BJJ/Judo, etc.

if.
dfgdfg

[BakShaolinEC]

As far as I'm concerned, it's all Kung Fu, even when it isn't.


/thread. that's all that needed to be said.

[Ray Pina]

if.
dfgdfg

I'm a BJJ purple belt now.

[bawang]

so why you barely break even?

[Ray Pina]

Again, your watching video and hearing comments about my performance and training from over 5 years ago.

I'll give Ross credit, after his guy beat me I joined Renzo's the next weekend. I wasn't impressed with the man's hands, but he had a solid side control and I realized I was missing the answer: simple frame and shrimping, replace guard. That wasn't even in my vocabulary then.

What you don't know can kill you. And that's why I'm a proponent of competition. Again, I give Ross respect in that area.

[bawang]

respect? you called him a liar and a fraud and coward. you sound more like some sort of sociopath than a martial artist.

[Lucas]

whats wrong with sociopaths?

[bawang]

they gain your trust, then eat all the skin from the kfc.

[Ray Pina]

respect? you called him a liar and a fraud and coward. you sound more like some sort of sociopath than a martial artist.

I respect his ability as a coach and what he's done for the sport.

He's a liar for saying a student of six months beat me when his sanctioned record clearly shows he had two MMA fights before my debut. Why pair up someone with the experience of preparing specifically for MMA and with two fights against an internal Kung FU player making his debut?

Why allow your men to weigh in the night before when everyone else has to weigh in the day of 8 hours before their fight and wait around on a cold gym floor?

He's a coward for speaking from a place of authority based on the fighting, blood, sweat and tears of other men and then ducking me when I say I'll go to his gym to compare.

I'll be in NY for Thanksgiving and will give him $1,000 to $100 odds to compare with me with or without gloves. No headgear.

I don't mind debating. Attack me personally, about my ability... be man enough to back it up personally. Not send someone else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i15.tinypic.com/6b9k7kz.gif

[Lucas]

they gain your trust, then eat all the skin from the kfc.

you need to open your heart to treachery and take all the skin off the kfc before you open the bucket for others.

[wenshu]

Sometimes we just eat all the skin.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/43469/890168-vlcsnap_95093_super.png

[MasterKiller]

He's a liar for saying a student of six months beat me when his sanctioned record clearly shows he had two MMA fights before my debut.
I think Ross showed those dates were after your fight.


Why pair up someone with the experience of preparing specifically for MMA and with two fights against an internal Kung FU player making his debut?
For an easy W. You have to be careful when dealing with matchmakers, especially if the guy making matches also has people fighting.


Why allow your men to weigh in the night before when everyone else has to weigh in the day of 8 hours before their fight and wait around on a cold gym floor?
So you can cut weight and get it back before the fight. It's common sense.

If I remember correctly, your main contention from that fight (The St. Cloud fight, right?) was how big the guy was, right? He probably cut 20 to 25 pounds to make weight and rehydrated over night. Everyone does it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just an FYI:
My first amateure boxing was VS a guy that had 12 fights already.
I won.
My first semi-pro boxing match was VS a guy with 5 fights.
I won.
I also lost when I had fights under my belt against a guy that was having his first fight.

[MasterKiller]

Just an FYI:
My first amateure boxing was VS a guy that had 12 fights already.
I won.
My first semi-pro boxing match was VS a guy with 5 fights.
I won.
I also lost when I had fights under my belt against a guy that was having his first fight.

I would never let my guys take a first fight against someone like that. Most respectable coaches wouldn't. First fight should be against someone with AT MOST two fights. AT MOST. That's my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would never let my guys take a first fight against someone like that. Most respectable coaches wouldn't. First fight should be against someone with AT MOST two fights. AT MOST. That's my opinion.

Eh, beggars can't be choosers ay times.
Rather fight a guy with 20 fights that sucks than I guy with 3 fights that's a natural ;)

I know what you mean though.
If I had been told I probably would have been more nervous ( if that was possible).

Hey, in my first Kyokushin competition as a BB I drew a 3rd dan that was 30lbs heavier and close to 6ft, luck of the draw.

[Ray Pina]

The amateur MMA scene today is at a completely different level than it was 10-15 years ago.

I know guys personally who racked up "MMA" wins 8 to 10 years ago fighting cops in the ring, tough guys at bars..... that's completely different than college-level kids/athletes devoting themselves to MMA as their sport of choice. Training scientifically and religiously.

[MasterKiller]

The amateur MMA scene today is at a completely different level than it was 10-15 years ago.

I know guys personally who racked up "MMA" wins 8 to 10 years ago fighting cops in the ring, tough guys at bars..... that's completely different than college-level kids/athletes devoting themselves to MMA as their sport of choice. Training scientifically and religiously.

Yes and no. In bigger shows, the fighters are recruited from gyms, so everyone trains.

In smaller shows, they have open calls and it's luck of the draw. You can get a Div II wrestler or a guy who never trained a day in his life. That's why it's important to have a good relationship with the matchmakers..

[Ray Pina]

I'm not even arguing that I lost or that it wasn't fair. I'm saying the guy wasn't a six month newbie as implied.

I'm not ashamed of losing. Everybody loses fights sometime. The only time I feel shame is when I lose and afterwards I think I could have fought harder.... those fights suck.

[Ray Pina]

I think Ross showed those dates were after your fight.
.

http://www.MixedMartialArts.com/f/E0844595951100EA/John-Salgado/

Just to make it clear. Scroll down. Ross's man fought 2/18/06, 6/10/06 and then me on 9/02/06.

[Ray Pina]

If I remember correctly, your main contention from that fight (The St. Cloud fight, right?) was how big the guy was, right? He probably cut 20 to 25 pounds to make weight and rehydrated over night. Everyone does it.


St. Cloud outmatched me, period. That guy was good and tough and won the whole tournament..... and yes, he did cut like 20lbs.

I learned a lot from those first very fights. It took like 4 or 5 fights just to get the routine down, get comfortable. Know what to expect.

[MasterKiller]

Honestly, if your teacher had gone with you in those early fights, he might have intervened.

I have pulled fighters at the weigh-ins if I see a bad match up. Sometimes the matchmakers will work with you, sometimes not.

For instance, in Oklahoma, the boxing commission allows a 10-lb weight difference in amateur fights.

We agreed to a 155 fight for a student's first fight.

He cut from 160 to 155.

His opponent cut from 185 to 165.

Technically, they were allowed to fight. But I pulled my guy because the size advantage was just too much. So, the matchmaker gave us another guy he had in reserve, who was much closer in size.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.MixedMartialArts.com/f/E0844595951100EA/John-Salgado/

Just to make it clear. Scroll down. Ross's man fought 2/18/06, 6/10/06 and then me on 9/02/06.

OK. I don't have a dog in that fight. But it seemed like you two were getting your wires crossed over which fight was when.