Do spinning techniques work best as follow up and cointerattacks/

[phantom]

I tend to think so. For example, if you miss with a roundhouse kick, if your opponent then moves in on you, a spinning back kick will have a good chance of catching him off guard. I have seen some videos on you tube where a spinning technique lands after the person's opponent launched an attack first. One was a tae kwon do guy landing a 360 degree kick on a guy after he threw a punch at him in on olympic competiton. Otherwise, I tend to think they are too risky, even though once in awhile somebody will win a fight by immediately throwing a spinning kick. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks in advance.

[SimonM]

Generally I avoid spinning techniques because they involve turning your back on your opponent (bad).

However twice in sparring matches I've screwed up, given somebody my back and salvaged with a turning back-fist.

In both cases it was more of an "oh ****" move than a planned technique.

In both cases it connected with my opponent's jaw and put him firmly on his ass.

In one of the cases (while in China) I had about 50 LBS on the guy I was sparring with - he was the 2nd biggest guy in the class with me the biggest - and it threw him dramatically through the air.

So, yeah, if you connect with them spinning techniques can bring a lot of power to your shot.

But I'd recommend only using them if you don't have another, safer, choice.

Because if you aren't born with a horseshoe planted up your posterior you're going to get elbowed in the back of the head.

[David Jamieson]

Timing is key, but rolling out and back in can work.
I don't think it works enough to use it as a base thing.
But it does work, many guys have used it to success.

[Snipsky]

Timing and awareness is KEY. you can see Bas connecting a spinning backfist square on Frank Shamrocks grill. look at Shamrocks face afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyPLOHzfS3Q&feature=related

[SimonM]

Timing and awareness is KEY. you can see Bas connecting a spinning backfist square on Frank Shamrocks grill. look at Shamrocks face afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyPLOHzfS3Q&feature=related

I would not want to get back-handed by Bas Ruten. :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

Generally I avoid spinning techniques because they involve turning your back on your opponent (bad)..
Without turning your body and touch your back to your opponent's chest (body contact), there won't be any throwing art.

The risk for spinning is if your opponent spins with you then you will be in trouble. One way (there are many ways) to solve that problem is to pretend that you are going to spin in one direction. When your opponent spins with you, you reverse your direction. Another way is to destroy your opponent's body structure when you spin. It's all relative and not absolute.

[Snipsky]

I would not want to get back-handed by Bas Ruten.

Neither would I LOL

[SimonM]

The risk for spinning is if your opponent spins with you then you will be in trouble.

The other risk is if your opponent closes rapidly on you.

If they anticipate the spin and move straight in they can take your back for grappling, elbow or shoulder check if they are a striker, kick you in the back of the leg or punch you in the back of the head.

Those things are all on the "do not let this happen to you" list.

Which is why I'd say use the spinning blow when you've over-extended, not to close a gap.

(For instance, in the Bas vs. Shamrock clip we saw earlier note Bas sort of messed up his roundhouse and was rotating past Shamrock off the kick anyway. I'd posit that if the kick HAD made a more solid connection he wouldn't have gone for the backhand.)

[Snipsky]

(For instance, in the Bas vs. Shamrock clip we saw earlier note Bas sort of messed up his roundhouse and was rotating past Shamrock off the kick anyway. I'd posit that if the kick HAD made a more solid connection he wouldn't have gone for the backhand.)

True. He did miss the kick but had a quick mind in realizing that there was indeed a chance to use the spinning backfist there. the key was he moved away while he did it instead of moving forward.

Spinning can get you in trouble, but like Bas showed, have a good comeback after a mistake and you may land something nice. like the smack heard around the world.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is the only thing that I have seen on youtube that is worth anything. All of these methods work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA5e8d2JPBg

When someone tries to evade your attack and angle. That's one of your best opportunities to throw a dragon tail (sweep or high kick). They will step deeper into you if you have good skills for cutting off the ring or fighting area.

I have had great success with the dragon tail sweep just off of a jab, jab, cross, hook, or jab-hook (same hand).

You can also land the spinning back kick at close range. If I recall, there was a guy, "Bad" Brad Hefton, in the old P.K.A kickboxing who would get into an exchange and then step across his opponent and land a right back kick. Elbows can work the same way especially if you can vary the angles.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Timing is key, but rolling out and back in can work.
I don't think it works enough to use it as a base thing.
But it does work, many guys have used it to success.

Could you explain that a little bit more? I don't quite understand.

[ginosifu]

This is the only thing that I have seen on youtube that is worth anything. All of these methods work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA5e8d2JPBg

When someone tries to evade your attack and angle. That's one of your best opportunities to throw a dragon tail (sweep or high kick). They will step deeper into you if you have good skills for cutting off the ring or fighting area.

I have had great success with the dragon tail sweep just off of a jab, jab, cross, hook, or jab-hook (same hand).

You can also land the spinning back kick at close range. If I recall, there was a guy, "Bad" Brad Hefton, in the old P.K.A kickboxing who would get into an exchange and then step across his opponent and land a right back kick. Elbows can work the same way especially if you can vary the angles.

The above clip showed all "Spinning Counters". This in my opinion is probably the best way to "Spin". To just lead off with a spinning tech is too slow.

ginosifu

[HumbleWCGuy]

The above clip showed all "Spinning Counters". This in my opinion is probably the best way to "Spin". To just lead off with a spinning tech is too slow.

ginosifu

The back kick when someone backs off or angles/circles isn't really a counter. I don't think that I would apply the term counter to them even if I were using it liberally. If you are fighting it's no different than changing an attack from jab, cross, hook to jab, upper cut because you see a weakness that you can exploit in the way your combination is being defended.

Example. I throw a jab, cross and notice that my opponent is stepping to my left. Next time around, I throw a jab, spinning kick. It that sense you could say, "I am countering my opponents movement." But, I would not want to suggest that I am "counter attacking," or "counter spinning." In those cases, I am attacking.

You can call it what you want, but I don't think that you terming those to be "counter spinning" would be standard.

[donjitsu2]

I think they work just fine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWafx9m71uo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az_2me8pIjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxB4twwLMBk

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think they work just fine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWafx9m71uo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az_2me8pIjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxB4twwLMBk

It was interesting in the last video because he connected with the back fist and the kick. Short legs and long arms to pull that off? If I tried that I would be to jammed up with the kick.

[Snipsky]

It was interesting in the last video because he connected with the back fist and the kick. Short legs and long arms to pull that off? If I tried that I would be to jammed up with the kick.

The kick never landed but it was interesting to see it applied.

[Yum Cha]

Spinning moves are riskier than non spinning moves....but with my experience they pay off.

Spinning backfist has to be a surprise. Once you show it, its much less effective.

Lots of power and commitment, seen lots of knockouts. Lacy's used it to good effect in Melbourne Tournaments, Chen Young Fa's boys in Sydney too.

[Taixuquan99]

Last year I went to see some friends fight at a local amateur mma tourney. In one of the fights(not one my friends were in), there were two guys, both heavy weights, decent fight, except, one of the guys was constantly going for a spinning backfist when his opponent was starting a jab, the jabber would pull his punch when he realized he was going to hit the back of the guy's head, but often still make some contact, and the guy who was choosing the wrong moment to consider a backfist was complaining to the judge about getting hit in the back of the head.

Some of those fights were pretty good, even the less silly moments of that one. A shortage of good kickers except one actual muay thai guy(who are so obvious when surrounded by mma guys who talked all night about how great practicing muay thai is, and then showed none of it in their kicks, but it was amateur level), and the main event, which had some good kicks from both fighters. The funny thing, one of the fighters in the main event was a boxer who had studied outside of boxing and adapted his fighting for mma, who, aside from his opponent, whose focus was ground fighting, and the muay thai guy, had some of the more effective kicks of the night. The boxer won by submission, which was a big surprise. It was fun to watch.

Anyway, spinning. Great for throws, and useful in an emergency situation, but as a main offensive thing, I've not used it a lot, I've seen guys who do and seem to be able to give it some place.

[SimonM]

Some of those fights were pretty good, even the less silly moments of that one. A shortage of good kickers except one actual muay thai guy(who are so obvious when surrounded by mma guys who talked all night about how great practicing muay thai is, and then showed none of it in their kicks, but it was amateur level), and the main event, which had some good kicks from both fighters. The funny thing, one of the fighters in the main event was a boxer who had studied outside of boxing and adapted his fighting for mma, who, aside from his opponent, whose focus was ground fighting, and the muay thai guy, had some of the more effective kicks of the night. The boxer won by submission, which was a big surprise. It was fun to watch.

Anyway, spinning. Great for throws, and useful in an emergency situation, but as a main offensive thing, I've not used it a lot, I've seen guys who do and seem to be able to give it some place.

If you are going to spam spinning back fists you shouldn't complain when you get clipped in the back of the head. You're putting it out there to get punched. ;)

I think your second paragraph is an excellent summation.

[Yum Cha]

Yep Simon, that's the risk.

I noticed the spinning moves are considered illegal at the Tournament in Dallas.

Back in the day (80's?), the Lacy's wreaked havoc with it at a William Cheung tournament in Melbourne. They tried mid tournament to outlaw the move because it was dropping so many fighters.

FWIW...

[Jimbo]

Like any class of technique, spinning techs have their place, if you develop the skill/experience of when to use them. They do carry their own unique risks, as well.

For myself, spinning back kicks tended to work best as almost a simultaneous counter...for example, if the opponent committed to a high back-leg right roundhouse kick, I might then spin counter-clockwise into a left spin back kick. Since he's already committed, it's difficult to avoid the counter. The spin back kick could be shortened up or extended out depending on the opponent's proximity and still hit sharply if you land it.

With the spinning backfist, it could be either a follow-up to your attack, or as a counter. IME, it's best when used in a combo and not by itself.

At the 5th International Kuoshu Championships in Taiwan in 1986, I remember seeing a Korean fighter matched against a European (Swiss?) Wing Chun stylist, who began the match in an obvious WC-type ready stance. They were still at a distance (possibly 8 or more feet apart?), when the Korean (left foot forward) very quickly launched forward, jumping off his lead foot and spun 360 degrees, closed the distance in the air and landed a perfect left spin back kick to the guy's torso. It was the first and last move of the fight, as the other guy crumpled. He had never even made a move to defend against it, it was so unexpected.

I still remember that because, although it wouldn't have been my choice to begin a match with, and although there was probably a huge difference in relative skill levels of the fighters mentioned above, it showed how fast, accurate and explosive some guys can be right out of the gate with such a kick.

[Snipsky]

I found this video, its a few fights where the spinning back fist knocks em out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPVFbX704LA

[YouKnowWho]

the Korean (left foot forward) very quickly launched forward, jumping off his lead foot and spun 360 degrees, closed the distance in the air and landed a perfect left spin back kick to the guy's torso.

I have seen a challenge fight in the similiar situation but with different outcome. A young guy challenged an old man. The young guy started with a right foot "floor sweep" at the old man's leading leg, the old man lifted his foot to escape out of it. The young man then changed his floor sweep into a "tornado kick" toward the old man's head. the old man steped in, used XingYi Heng Chuan and hit on the young guy's waist and knocked the young guy's body 45 degree up in the air. I have seen people got knocked down or knocked back. That was the only time that I have ever seen people got knocked up.

[SimonM]

When you spin you develop a huge angular momentum. Connect your strike and you deliver that force to your opponent. If, on the other hand, your opponent strikes you they can turn that force around on you.

That being said, I wouldn't ban the move, I'd just make a rule that said no crying if you take a shot to the back of the head while executing it.

[TaichiMantis]

I found this video, its a few fights where the spinning back fist knocks em out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPVFbX704LA

Sweet find, thanks!:p