Iron Shirt Training Methods

[Andy]

I am interested in learning about and comparing the ways different Hard/Soft styles train Iron Shirt. Can anyone from such styles as Southern Praying Mantis, Bok Mei or other hard /soft styles weigh in on this issue?

thanks.

[Dale Dugas]

For starters,

What do you want to ask.

Your question is rather lacking substance.

[Andy]

I think that in styles such as Hung Gar, it is the Iron Wire form that is the primary training method for training Iron Shirt. Some external training methods employ things such as repeatedly striking the body with different implements. This is very similar to developing Iron Palm skills by repeatedly striking sand bags or other hard objects. All of these ways seem to me to be very external. My question is how do soft/hard styles or more internal styles train Iron Shirt?

[Dale Dugas]

internal iron shirt/iron body/iron vest usually sees the student training the fascia of the body using twisting movements, as well as standing meditation to develop the ability to take force through the body and into the ground.

Over time these practices entrain the body to do this with very little conscious effort.

I have demonstrated how to do this without using excessive tension.

many internal people actually feel like a tire when you hit them. a slight pressure that literally can bounce people back.

And after training for a period of years, you can not only take that force into the ground but shift the force back through the attacking limb into the attackers body where it can cause all manner of mischief for that person.

Baguazhang and how its trains by twisting the body causes the fascia to strengthen and thicken over time. Hence you can get Iron Shirt by seriously practicing your Baguazhang circle walking.

There is much more involved, but it comes down to the student doing the work to achieve the ability to take more punishment than someone who does not.

[Andy]

Thanks Dale.

You mentioned that:

"internal iron shirt/iron body/iron vest usually sees the student training the fascia of the body using twisting movements, as well as standing meditation to develop the ability to take force through the body and into the ground.

Over time these practices entrain the body to do this with very little conscious effort.

I have demonstrated how to do this without using excessive tension."

Have I missed one of your earlier postings or Youtube clips? I would like to find where you have demonstrated this. I would also be happy to hear more details about the BaGua method for building Iron Shirt.

In addition with styles such as Southern Praying Mantis I don't see an emphasis on twisting and yet from what I understand, they too have a method for developing Iron Shirt.

[Dale Dugas]

Andy,

http://youtu.be/EfVhDHlsWCw

I am not sitting still tensing at all but moving around trying not to react back at my fellow baguazhang teachers who are attacking me.

If you listen closely you will hear them hitting me.

Baguazhang training develops this naturally over time.

As your training progresses and you learn to entrain more of your body into a complete unit, you will be able to absorb a lot more punishment.

Reverse breathing comes into play, but this is not really something you can talk about, but rather you have to demonstrate to a student.

Nam Tong Long Pai uses different exercises, the first being Dip Guat Gung which has the student learn to close and open the costal muscles attached to the ribs creating a shield around the torso, this over time develops the fascia as well.

South Mantis also uses external tension in many of the pai to achieve similar abilities. Overtime as with all hard training and awareness, you should be training yin and yang.

I trained in Uechi Ryu Karate for 8 years and achieved a high level of conditioning from my training. It has helped me and gave me a great foundation.

[charp choi]

In Chow Gar SPM our core form is Sarm Bo Jin (3 step arrow punch). This is the first form we are taught and it's aim is to toughen and strengthen the body, sinews, ligaments so after a number of years you can start to resist body shots.

Sarm Bo Jin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LECdbQ5Xt_8

I also noticed an Iron Body dvd (one of many) that combines internal/external & northern/southern methods. After viewing the clips below it looks interesting:

http://ironpalmproductions.com/iron-body-training

Mike

[mooyingmantis]

I also noticed an Iron Body dvd (one of many) that combines internal/external & northern/southern methods. After viewing the clips below it looks interesting:

http://ironpalmproductions.com/iron-body-training

Mike

This looks like a good training program. Does anyone know anything about this teacher?

[charp choi]

This looks like a good training program. Does anyone know anything about this teacher?

He's a link from the Iron Body site:

http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/instructors.html

I also know someone who has 30+ years of chinese martial arts training who is a student of his and has nothing but high praise for his abilities.

[Dale Dugas]

Chris trains under Shifu James Mcneil.

Great guy who obviously trains the material his teacher has shown him.

He shows you how to do it and can demo it.

[charp choi]

Andy,

http://youtu.be/EfVhDHlsWCw

I am not sitting still tensing at all but moving around trying not to react back at my fellow baguazhang teachers who are attacking me.

If you listen closely you will hear them hitting me.

Baguazhang training develops this naturally over time.

As your training progresses and you learn to entrain more of your body into a complete unit, you will be able to absorb a lot more punishment.

Reverse breathing comes into play, but this is not really something you can talk about, but rather you have to demonstrate to a student.

Nam Tong Long Pai uses different exercises, the first being Dip Guat Gung which has the student learn to close and open the costal muscles attached to the ribs creating a shield around the torso, this over time develops the fascia as well.

South Mantis also uses external tension in many of the pai to achieve similar abilities. Overtime as with all hard training and awareness, you should be training yin and yang.

I trained in Uechi Ryu Karate for 8 years and achieved a high level of conditioning from my training. It has helped me and gave me a great foundation.

Dale is as usual correct.
Sarm Bo Jin starts the dip gwat gung (rib bone power) training as the opening and closing of the ribcage starts here. There are seperate dip gwat gung drills as well for this. See the opening drill 0:00s - 0:21s here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wMcRBQgD6s

[Andy]

So are the twisting methods found in Bagua and the dip gwat gung of the mantis styles training the same thing simply using a different method? Do the internal methods take longer? Any thoughts as to the commonalities and differences of these methods. (Btw this isn't a "which is better question" just an attempt to understand what is taking place and how.)

[Dale Dugas]

Andy,

Baguazhang and South Mantis are getting to the same destination, we are just taking different roads.

Within 3 years of training you should have an incredible foundation.

[TaichiMantis]

We just had a demo from our iron shirt students at our Sifu Day celebration (see pics in this set (http://www.flickr.com/photos/christinestephens/sets/72157627148448241/)). This class has been together for two years, three men, three women. I'm very proud of my friends that stuck with it, they can certainly take a hit!

My Sifu was the top iron shirt student of Chiu Chuk Kai in Vietnam. Sifu Li trained his two top students to teach this latest class. You must be invited by Sifu to take this training. The rules and time commitment for this training on top of the other 6-7 hrs of class is too much for most folks. It should not be done without the supervision of a knowledgeable teacher. I remember my friends talking about various physical and emotional reactions they experienced in the first few months of training.

Dale, have you ever trained any women in iron skills? Do you or Gene know of any women that have gone through this type of training?

[Dale Dugas]

I have trained women in Iron Palm, but not Iron Vest.

Pretty much for the lack of women who ever wanted it.

Many wanted to do Iron Palm and have that weapon at hand(lol).

[TaichiMantis]

I have trained women in Iron Palm, but not Iron Vest.

Pretty much for the lack of women who ever wanted it.

Many wanted to do Iron Palm and have that weapon at hand(lol).

cool!:cool:

thanks Dale ;)