any traditional southern broadswords?

[soulfist]

Does anyone know of any traditional southern broadsword forms? Most are borrowed from northern styles, as I guess the broadsword is a northern weapon. Which southern styles have this weapon?

[TenTigers]

most, if not all dahn-dao sets came from the North and were adapted into the Southern systems. Sometimes, as in the KwongSai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tang Long P'ai broadsword, the movements directly follow the structures and theories of movements of the P'ai.
But, most sets are just stripped down a bit and made more compact.

[jdhowland]

If you mean the dou/dao, there are many southern styles that use them. Choy Lei Fat and Tibetan White Crane to name two, although both have northern influence.
Never heard that it was peculiar to the North. Maybe as a common soldier's weapon it was associated withe Qing military in recent times. There was a farmer's type of dao, as well.

Southern styles often use shorter dao such as sleeve knives/ elbow knives. Good for concealed carry.

[soulfist]

Is there northern influence in Choi Lei Fut and Tibetan White Crane?

Seems that the northern broadsword's counterpart would be the southern butterfly swords. South has adopted many northern weapons but the north seems to have ignored the southern weapons, I think.

[jdhowland]

soulfist;1118340]Is there northern influence in Choi Lei Fut and Tibetan White Crane?

Yup. Lots.



Seems that the northern broadsword's counterpart would be the southern butterfly swords. South has adopted many northern weapons but the north seems to have ignored the southern weapons, I think.

Pretty much the case.

[soulfist]

jdhowland, so what is the northern influence on CLF? Ive asked others before but no one seems to know.

[Snipsky]

I heard that the Feet or Kicking or CLF is the Northern Side of CLF's history.

[brothernumber9]

Hung Fut has a few dao forms that are quite distinct from most northern styles/forms that I have seen.

[David Jamieson]

Broadsword form from the system I learned is taken from the north as well.
This is one of those things that re-sparks interest for me!
thanks for asking this! lol
:)

[soulfist]

I heard that the Feet or Kicking or CLF is the Northern Side of CLF's history.
But where is that connection in CLF's history?


brothernumber9, your right Ive heard Hung Fut does have some broadsword forms. But their history is very vague and hard to confirm. I know Hak Fu Mun also has the broadsword, but it seems to be a new creation from both Hung Fut and Bagua.

Some schools of Bak Mei also have the broadsword but Im not sure that source. It possibly came from Lum Yiu Gwai, but his broadsword came from northern Lohan Mun.

[jdhowland]

jdhowland, so what is the northern influence on CLF? Ive asked others before but no one seems to know.

"Nam kyuhn, bak teui" is often quoted, but that's not it, really.

Supposedly the system taught by the monk Choi Fook, whose name takes precedence in the style's trinity of names, was a master of a northern "siu lam" system. The high kicking and whirlwind kicks (syuhn fung teui) are northern. Almost all of the long hands, including gwa, sou, chaap, are done in a northern style with power generated by the back.

The "buddha palms" are also said to come from Choi's influence but there has also been speculation that it was brought in later (c. 1860s) from another "fat ga" system.

Also, there has been a lot of speculation about the obvious relationship between CLF and the "lama" boxing taught by Sing Lung. There is no historical reference for this but the similarities in techniques and names cannot be denied. Chan Heung and Sing Lung were coeval, so it's possible.

[hskwarrior]

he "buddha palms" are also said to come from Choi's influence but there has also been speculation that it was brought in later (c. 1860s) from another "fat ga" system.

The 1860's part is Jeung Yim's doing because it was during this time that Jeung Yim and Chan Heung reunited after more than 20 years being apart. still Choy Fook sharing the buddha palms, i thought chan fam claims Chan Yuen Wu taught that to chan heung.


Also, there has been a lot of speculation about the obvious relationship between CLF and the "lama" boxing taught by Sing Lung. There is no historical reference for this but the similarities in techniques and names cannot be denied. Chan Heung and Sing Lung were coeval, so it's possible.

possibly Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut. i doubt it for Jeung Yim's lineage tho.

[Jimbo]

Is there northern influence in Choi Lei Fut and Tibetan White Crane?

Seems that the northern broadsword's counterpart would be the southern butterfly swords. South has adopted many northern weapons but the north seems to have ignored the southern weapons, I think.

Among some likely reasons for this are that, in general, northern systems are older (many are WAY older) than most southern systems; and I believe there has historically been more migration from the north to the south than vice versa. Not only the weapons, but there seems to be more awareness and popularity of northern kung fu in the south than the other way around.

[soulfist]

Supposedly the system taught by the monk Choi Fook, whose name takes precedence in the style's trinity of names, was a master of a northern "siu lam" system. The high kicking and whirlwind kicks (syuhn fung teui) are northern. Almost all of the long hands, including gwa, sou, chaap, are done in a northern style with power generated by the back.
Oh? I thought the Chan Family said that Choi Fook was "Choi Ga" style, a southern short fist. Was his kung fu actually northern?


The "buddha palms" are also said to come from Choi's influence but there has also been speculation that it was brought in later (c. 1860s) from another "fat ga" system.
Hmmm, the buddha palm form Im not sure, but the buddha palm concept from what little I understand is from Jeung Yim's teacher the Green Grass Monk. This is the same "fut ga" that is found in Hung Fut, whose origin is placed in the same area. What have you heard about another Fut Ga system, or Choi knowing Fut Ga?


Also, there has been a lot of speculation about the obvious relationship between CLF and the "lama" boxing taught by Sing Lung. There is no historical reference for this but the similarities in techniques and names cannot be denied. Chan Heung and Sing Lung were coeval, so it's possible.
The time is right for Sing Lung and Chan Heung, I think. Sing Lung taught Leung Kwan, the famous Tit Kiu Saam of Hung Ga. Is the speculation modern? Has there been any mention of an influence in the past? Im very curious to hear more!


Jdhowland, youve said alot of things I havent heard before and got me curious about it. Im genuinely interested about any possible Lama and CLF relationship, and also what Fut Ga is and came from. Hope you can expand on this a little, even if just speculative!

[jdhowland]

A good question. I doubt anyone can really answer it since a lack of historical evidence cannot prove a negative statement. As far as I know, no one in my lines ever made the connection. The early recorded names are si hao and lama kyuhn.

Some points to ponder: Fut Ga does seem to have been used generically for "Buddhist" styles. The fact that there are several Faht Ga systems with no clear relationship to one another supports this idea. The Faht Ga I have seen in the U.S. has no evident relationship to lama boxing. Choy Lei Faht may have been considered one of the Faht Ga systems and it has some techniques in common with lama kyuhn. And, of course, some branches of Hung Kyuhn show lama influence from Wong Yen Lum. Could it be that they were all "Fat Ga Kyuhn" based on the idea that they have similar origin myths of being passed down within Buddhist temples before they were adopted by various militia movements?

Off topic and certainly worthy of a thread of its own. To briefly recap my thoughts on this question: I have heard that the northern influence on CLF came from Lei Yau San. I have also heard it came from Choi Fook. In both cases my informants were Chan family stylists. This leads me to believe that Chan family doesn't really know what aspects of the art were taught by whom. I was repeating my teacher's opinion and he was taught by Tse Wing Bun and by Ho Ngau.

As for the faht jeung techniques, I have no problem with the idea that there may have been influence from Jeung Hung Sing, though I certainly don't wish to fan any flames here. Because of later rivalries different sources may have been credited in different lineages. I write from that most smugly confident position of one who claims he doesn't know...and doesn't know anyone who claims to know for sure. So let's get on with training. The living are the only personages of import anymore.

[hskwarrior]

As for the faht jeung techniques, I have no problem with the idea that there may have been influence from Jeung Hung Sing,

Jeung Yims connection was far more than just the palms. there are many many elements found in Fut Gar kuen and Fut Jeung Kuen that is found in Jeung Yim's gung fu as well as Tam Sams.

Lee Gar kuen is a blending of the Hard Stable Southern Fist and the Quick Agility of the Northern School.