How much do you commit?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Was wondering how much you commit when doing your Wing Chun. Do you train to give 100% to attacks or do you tend to hold something back, kind of keep a bit in reserve?

What is the difference in your mindest if you do give 100% when moving into an opponent? Is there any difference or is it all the same?

Curious as I am working on something currently and thinking back to how I was originally taught. When I first learned and practiced WT in Germany, I trained to step in very deeply using Bic Bo. With the weight on the rear leg I retained mobility yet was able to drive in deeply.

Seems to me that a lot of people doing WC now fail to commit fully to an attack. Rather then tend to hold back and imho I think that this is perhaps why so many are unable to fully apply their Wing Chun in real situations.

I am interested in hearing what others think. Perhaps I am way off base here, or perhaps not.

Discuss

[WC1277]

Hello,

Was wondering how much you commit when doing your Wing Chun. Do you train to give 100% to attacks or do you tend to hold something back, kind of keep a bit in reserve?

What is the difference in your mindest if you do give 100% when moving into an opponent? Is there any difference or is it all the same?

Curious as I am working on something currently and thinking back to how I was originally taught. When I first learned and practiced WT in Germany, I trained to step in very deeply using Bic Bo. With the weight on the rear leg I retained mobility yet was able to drive in deeply.

Seems to me that a lot of people doing WC now fail to commit fully to an attack. Rather then tend to hold back and imho I think that this is perhaps why so many are unable to fully apply their Wing Chun in real situations.

I am interested in hearing what others think. Perhaps I am way off base here, or perhaps not.

Discuss

Not entirely sure what you're asking but I'll give it a shot.

We were always told that once you decide to fight, then go in as if to kill with one punch. So naturally that means an immense amount of ferocity and to, yes, hold back nothing intent wise.

However, from a structural viewpoint, I don't know if you read my post on active/passive, when the body moves the arms are passive, including, for example if no arm contact is made and you just punch them. Now one will wonder how an attack can be passive and I'll do my best to explain it but forgive me if it doesn't make sense.

It's termed passive within active. A few things are required for it to work correctly when closing the gap. First off, your body needs to move first, hence active body. When in range your punching arm with which whatever footwork you're using that is attached to the forward swinging hip will be the arm of choice. That arm will naturally come forward on it's own if your body is properly aligned. You're only responsibility will be to add the required tension of making the shape of the fist or chop or palm. That tension you're creating is the beginning of active. Nothing more, nothing less. Once contact is made with the body, your own body turns off(passive) and your weight sinks as your arm turns into full on active and strikes through the opponents body.

The importance of this "passive within active" is that if you are deflected your power is already turned off in your arm so that you can react instantly instead of having to turn off and then turn back on. Movement of our bodies are quite literally switches that our nervous system engages. Once a motion is made, that motion can't be changed until it's turned off. The way we train with fong sifu in everything we do is awareness of those switches and how to turn on only the switches necessary. Despite popular belief, it's not sensitivity that makes WC work. It's the total control of your own body and center of gravity. If you master that, technique doesn't matter and a person will find themselves doing WC movements whether they train in WC or not....

When you look at things in an on/off power kind of way, switching has a whole nother meaning. It's no longer about changing arms or attacks but about when to turn on and off power

[WC1277]

To further explain just a little bit more so that people don't think passive within active means just a lazy arm, I propose a quick example.

To be passive within active using wing chun structure means to have just the right amount of tension in your arm to hold any particular shape within your structure.

Try this out, first get into your guarding stance. Without pushing back have someone give a quick shove on your forward arm. Remember, dont push back or use muscle. The majority of WC guys will collapse with that test.

Now do the same but this time have your forward arm have the same Wu sau that you do in the first part of sil lum tao. Pulled back nice and straight so that you feel that tension between your thumb and index finger. Remember don't use muscle or push back. A little stronger, huh?

Now do it one more time but this time have your back hand now with the same tension as the front and put it directly in line with your front hand. Not lower like most people do. Strong as he!!, huh?

That's passive structure in action right there. Just the right amount of tension to align your joint structure. It's incredibly strong and allows you to turn on power when needed instead of always being on..... also that example shows too how your rear hand strengthens your front hand when proper tension is there.

There's also true passive movement within the WC structure as well where the opponent creates the shape for you but I'm not even going to bother trying to explain that....

[jesper]

Once you commit, you go all the way unless forced to disengage.

Makes no sense to me to have to go through all the trouble of getting on the inside, just to do it all over again :)

[Sihing73]

Once you commit, you go all the way unless forced to disengage.

Makes no sense to me to have to go through all the trouble of getting on the inside, just to do it all over again :)

I would agree, however it seems to me that many people do not attack as aggressivley as they could and this leads me to believe they are not committing 100%.

Take the Bic Bo for example; do you train to step through your opponent or do you stop at a certain point?

I am curious as I was initially taught that once you decide to attack you attack fully and do not stop till the opponent is unable to fight any longer.

Along the same lines of thought; do you wait for your opponent to initiate the attack or do you attack them first if you believe an attack is imminent? What legal considerations, if any do you think about in your strategy?

[jesper]

I always try and step through him and thereby partly keep him off balance and on the defensive with my footwork, while at the same time working him with my upper body.

As for legal consideration. I dont really think anyone think about that when they are attacked. I certainly dont, not til after at least.
That being said there is a time and place for everything so the situation dictates the actions.
So fx my action when I was last attacked in a bar many years ago was totally different from when I went H2H with a talibob during a compound clearing.

[WC1277]

Well that was a complete waste of my time......

[duende]

Well that was a complete waste of my time......

Obviously you didn't provide the answer they were looking for. ;) :rolleyes:


Bik Ma in this function is a great example of technique implementing form over function which is a bad thing to do in combat.

Rushing in with a straight leg is only offering a bridge to your opponent on the lower gate and will not work against a seasoned fighter. As it is vulnerable to being jammed or dominated by superior structure and positioning.

Better to use such forward footwork once forward energy by the opponent has been neutralized and inside line has been taken.

Don't believe me? Go try it and see for yourself. Commitment has nothing to do with it.

[WC1277]

Obviously you didn't provide the answer they were looking for. ;) :rolleyes:


Bik Ma in this function is a great example of technique implementing form over function which is a bad thing to do in combat.

Rushing in with a straight leg is only offering a bridge to your opponent on the lower gate and will not work against a seasoned fighter. As it is vulnerable to being jammed or dominated by superior structure and positioning.

Better to use such forward footwork once forward energy by the opponent has been neutralized and inside line has been taken.

Don't believe me? Go try it and see for yourself. Commitment has nothing to do with it.

What are you talking about and how does bik ma have anything to do with anything?

[Sihing73]

Well that was a complete waste of my time......

Why would you feel this to be the case?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I just put 100% into the strategy that I am trying to apply. If it's hit and run, I commit. If it's run the guy over, I commit. Counter fighting, I commit.

In terms of power-level of techniques. I throw my hardest within the confines of the techniques. Meaning, I could throw a rear straight that could knock down a door, but I can't hit anything with it. Moreover, WC prescribes that I keep my rear straight relatively tight and quick.

[nasmedicine]

Hello,

Was wondering how much you commit when doing your Wing Chun. Do you train to give 100% to attacks or do you tend to hold something back, kind of keep a bit in reserve?

Great subject.

80-85% w/o protective gear on, 100% w/protective gear on. When training with people I'm not familiar with I tend to keep the percentage even lower because things easily escalate.


What is the difference in your mindest if you do give 100% when moving into an opponent? Is there any difference or is it all the same?

No difference, except when not giving 100% I am not following through but the timing, positioning, angle, intent (or lack there of) is in place as if I was giving it 100%


Seems to me that a lot of people doing WC now fail to commit fully to an attack. Rather then tend to hold back and imho I think that this is perhaps why so many are unable to fully apply their Wing Chun in real situations.

I feel that done correctly it's not an issue whether you commit fully or not, just as long as you do train 100% every now and then to make sure that what you've been training is correct (timing, positioning, power transfer...etc)

I've met with Sifu Chow on one occasion (we were invited to a seminar by one of his students). Sifu Chow was a very humble and knowledgeable fellow and we had a similar conversation as to what your posting about. He more or less agree with the basic premise of what I said in the above comments.

[stonecrusher69]

Hello,

Was wondering how much you commit when doing your Wing Chun. Do you train to give 100% to attacks or do you tend to hold something back, kind of keep a bit in reserve?

What is the difference in your mindest if you do give 100% when moving into an opponent? Is there any difference or is it all the same?

Curious as I am working on something currently and thinking back to how I was originally taught. When I first learned and practiced WT in Germany, I trained to step in very deeply using Bic Bo. With the weight on the rear leg I retained mobility yet was able to drive in deeply.

Seems to me that a lot of people doing WC now fail to commit fully to an attack. Rather then tend to hold back and imho I think that this is perhaps why so many are unable to fully apply their Wing Chun in real situations.

I am interested in hearing what others think. Perhaps I am way off base here, or perhaps not.

Discuss

Moving into an opponent is the WC way. ( stay with what comes) but that does not mean to attack 100% it should be balanced. you need defense just as much as offense.

[Sihing73]

Moving into an opponent is the WC way. ( stay with what comes) but that does not mean to attack 100% it should be balanced. you need defense just as much as offense.

Does a strong committed offense mean one has a weak or ineffective defense?

Couldn't one argue that giving 100% is applicable both in defense and offense?

What about a defense that also hurts your opponent? Is that Wing Chun or something else? Think of the Gaun Sau, while it can clear the line, the proper angle will hurt the opponent when it connects.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Does a strong committed offense mean one has a weak or ineffective defense?

Couldn't one argue that giving 100% is applicable both in defense and offense?

What about a defense that also hurts your opponent? Is that Wing Chun or something else? Think of the Gaun Sau, while it can clear the line, the proper angle will hurt the opponent when it connects.

The best defense is a good offense. If your attacks are weak and half-hearted, your opponent won't respect you and nothing works at that point. Hence, the TMA guy who gets destroyed by street fighters and loses to the first guy they fight who is more muscular.

[stonecrusher69]

Does a strong committed offense mean one has a weak or ineffective defense?

Couldn't one argue that giving 100% is applicable both in defense and offense?

What about a defense that also hurts your opponent? Is that Wing Chun or something else? Think of the Gaun Sau, while it can clear the line, the proper angle will hurt the opponent when it connects.

When one is on the attack there is an open door somewhere and if your opponent strikes at the time before you completed your attack you will be vulnerable to a counter attack. So it is safer to let your oppoenet to move first and counter his movement before he can finish his attack,so your attack becomes your defense.

[stonecrusher69]

using gaun sao can also be used also as an attack in fact any hand can be.