What do you teach somone during thier first Wing Chun Class?

[HumbleWCGuy]

My thoughts:
Centerline
Clock theory
Gate theory
Animals
How to make a fist and striking surface
stance
basic footwork (advance, retreat, side step)

[GlennR]

My thoughts:
Centerline
Clock theory
Gate theory
Animals
How to make a fist and striking surface
stance
basic footwork (advance, retreat, side step)

The punch.

[anerlich]

Six dimensional force vectors, levitation, microcosmic/macrocosmic orbits, yin and yang, the five elements, eight trigrams, and dim mak.

Seriously, not too much. Teach them the proper way to form a fist, basic lead and rear straight punches including stance and basic explanation of the centreline, coach them on punching using mitts for a while so they exert some energy and feel they have done something, and maybe let them work a light pak dar with a partner (preferably me).

IMO the first lesson is more about piquing their curiosity, getting them interested and making them feel welcome than anything else.

[Graham H]

The first section of Siu Lim Tau so we can start to develop structure and the correct path of the elbow for the Ving Tsun straight punch. This is all a "newbie" should learn until results are seen or many problems will occur in the future.

Explaining too much is pointless in the beginning as VT is about concepts and principles and most will not understand. We all have "Karate" mentalities before we begin and this is not good for VT. This is only if the student has began training. If not its easy to explain the whole system in an afternoon. Some will walk away scratching their heads and some will see things clearly. It's a normal problem in VT and why there are so many variations. The human factor.......................

GH

[stonecrusher69]

keep it simple as possible..I teach the first section of the SLT, the basic punch and how to move, and some of the ideas behind it. Don't try to explain the whole system in one lesson.

[nasmedicine]

keep it simple as possible..I teach the first section of the SLT, the basic punch and how to move, and some of the ideas behind it. Don't try to explain the whole system in one lesson.

I agree. Basic movement of SLT only, no details. Once they can memorize the sequence move on to the next section. However discussion of centerline concept is a must. Simple power training drills also on the day can be introduced.

[Sihing73]

First thing I tell everyone is

I Cheat!!

:) :D ;)

[dirtyrat]

First thing I tell everyone is

I Cheat!!

:) :D ;)

i like this, for obvious reasons;)

[nasmedicine]

First thing I tell everyone is

I Cheat!!

:) :D ;)

LOL, nice! :D

[LoneTiger108]

When I started The Yum Yeurng Academy with my Sihing we had already decided that the page we were teaching had to be completed in one go. There was a set amount of lines to go through in a set period of time, and so we started with a fixed group for a fixed period so everybody was exposed to the same material. We tended to work with small groups of 4-5.

Our first line is our logo, or signature drill, which is accompanied by various therapeutic exercises to develop co-ordination and this is always taught first. :)

[YouKnowWho]

I like to teach the following material on "day one".

General defense against

- punch (boxer).
- front or side kick (TKD guy).
- roundhouse kick (MT guy).
- single leg or double legs shooting (wrestler).

Those defense skills may be different from style to style. Since those are the most common defense skills that everybody will need in today's environment, it's very important to deeply insert into new students mind on day one.

[Eric_H]

The idea of center of gravity
Basic Footwork
Basic Punches
Get them to hit pads and have some fun.

[jesper]

First thing I tell everyone is

I Cheat!!

:) :D ;)

Dont trust what I say. try it yourself was one of the first I heard from my instructor when I switched to WC

[EternalSpring]

Stretching followed by Kim Yeung Mah @ Chong Choi (which includes basics of center line theory) and kicking without bending/lowering one's back or changing posture followed by Dim Gerk.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I can easily see why there are so many different followings of Wing Chun. Everyone has different emphisis on everything. When you are teaching someone something like Wing Chun you have to start very slowly. You try to shove too much down him right off the bat and none of it will stick. Or he will not remember it just exactly as you told it.
You have to spend a lot of time dealing with the concepts of WC. Explaining them completely. This can take some time, but doesn't have to be fixed solidly into his brain, as he will remember most of it a little at a time as you teach other stuff, or he will ask, or you can again speak of it. You can not do proper forms without knowing exactly what it is that you are doing, and then you do have to learn the weapons of attack and defense, but you can not teach that much in a single 2 hour lesson. Can't be done. don't be in so much of a hurry.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I still have my teaching syllabus from WT and use it as a good reference.

First off I would teach the stance and explain the principles behind it, also stressing this is not a fighting stance.

I would teach how to form a fist and throw a single punch. I would show one or two basics techniques, usually Pak Sau and Gaun Sau and have them practice those in the air and then with a partner, one punching one "blocking".

Then at the end of the class I would have them try to combine the block and strike together. Only for about 10 to 15 minutes and then end class.

This would be for a formalized class at a school. Training in my backyard may be a bit different. ;)

[Wu Wei Wu]

1st lesson with Leung, Kwok-Keung sifu, in Opera Wing Chun was;
Part of 1st form
Kung Fu based stretching
Seung Huen Sau Chi Sau (Double Circling Hand Sticking)

1st lesson with Jesse Glover, my Non-Classical Gung Fu instructor was;
Straight Punching on pads
Big Punch on pads
Back Fist on pads
Non-classical Sticking Hand
Calisthenics

If I taught a new student it would be;
Tabata conditioning for fighting *bag work, pad work, sprints, skipping
Straight punching on pads
Sparring *starting light
Chi Sao
*if any time, part of 1st form

Suki Gosal

[Hendrik]

I would teach her to learn how to open and close a heavy swing door.


Wing Chun is just that. open and close a heavy swing door practice for next few decades.

[EternalSpring]

For the sake of discussion, how do you guys feel about teaching any form of chi sao on the first lesson (i noticed it was mentioned in this thread)? Personally it's something I never thought of doing because I feel that the Ving Tsun I have been taught requires that at least the basics of Siu Nim tao are known decently well. But then again, there are are many ways to train Ving Tsun. For those of you who say that you'd teach some form of chi sao on the first lesson, what exactly would you teach? The first sensitivity drills I would teach a student before any other sensitivity training would involve sensitivity in san sao type techniques such as pak sao-pak da and lop sao.

[GlennR]

For the sake of discussion, how do you guys feel about teaching any form of chi sao on the first lesson (i noticed it was mentioned in this thread)? Personally it's something I never thought of doing because I feel that the Ving Tsun I have been taught requires that at least the basics of Siu Nim tao are known decently well. But then again, there are are many ways to train Ving Tsun. For those of you who say that you'd teach some form of chi sao on the first lesson, what exactly would you teach? The first sensitivity drills I would teach a student before any other sensitivity training would involve sensitivity in san sao type techniques such as pak sao-pak da and lop sao.

Id leave Chi sao out for a long time

[EternalSpring]

Id leave Chi sao out for a long time

Same. I'm guessing you'd aim for having students develop their technique first before moving into sensitivity? I know some people have a different approach (which is cool as well). For example, a friend who trains JKD showed me how they start chi sao but it was just a really simplified form of sensitivity where if someone pushes on your bridge/forearm you practice moving with the force and so on, kinda like push hands in tai chi.

[GlennR]

Same. I'm guessing you'd aim for having students develop their technique first before moving into sensitivity? I know some people have a different approach (which is cool as well). For example, a friend who trains JKD showed me how they start chi sao but it was just a really simplified form of sensitivity where if someone pushes on your bridge/forearm you practice moving with the force and so on, kinda like push hands in tai chi.

Personally, i just dont see the need for chi-sauo at an early stage.
Im thinking just being able to kick and punch solidly, while maintaining balance, is much more useful skill set.
Id leave chi-sao out for at least 12 months

[EternalSpring]

Personally, i just dont see the need for chi-sauo at an early stage.
Im thinking just being able to kick and punch solidly, while maintaining balance, is much more useful skill set.
Id leave chi-sao out for at least 12 months

Very true, especially since there's no way that i can think of to get around not having those skills.

[wingchunIan]

For what it's worth in my opinion most students will struggle to get beyond YGKYM, and basic punch and centreline theory in a first lesson. Introducing even basic turning is way too much for most new students and is normally the limit of what I introduce in lesson one. New students can obviously observe the rest of the class to see other things being taught and trained and are encouraged to ask questions but I always limit their physical training to the above in the first lesson .

[Graham H]

For what it's worth in my opinion most students will struggle to get beyond YGKYM, and basic punch and centreline theory in a first lesson. Introducing even basic turning is way too much for most new students and is normally the limit of what I introduce in lesson one. New students can obviously observe the rest of the class to see other things being taught and trained and are encouraged to ask questions but I always limit their physical training to the above in the first lesson .

Good thinking!! ;)

I don't teach any turning until Chum Kiu. SLT is for developing the correct basic postions and behaviour of the left and right arms whilst maintaining the correct leg positions for supporting the punch later on. YGKYM is only a training satnce and is a precursor to pivoting and stepping. SLT and then Dahn Chi Sau must run ok before any turning, stepping and punching exercises commence. The introduction of the wall bag is important but not until after SLT and DC. The elbow behaviour for the Ving Tsun straight punch is the most important idea.

In my lineage CK is taught considerably sooner than most other lineages because without CK, SLT will make no sense. SLT is for training NOT fighting.

The introdcution of pivoting and stepping and punching drills too soon will lead to errors in which case when the student begins sparring he/she will resort back to things we can do already through habit if the correct foundations have not been laid.
This is why SLT is performed slowly and NOT because we are culivating chi or praying to the buddha as I have seen in some schools. :D

The first months will create a good future VT practitioner but if the system is flawed then he/she will just dart around chain punching the air because no fundamental skill has been aqquired.

Spending too much time locked to peoples arms also creates bad fighters!!!!

GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that my philosophy of the first lesson is to lay down a theoretical base so that they can begin to train. I show the fist because I think that so many beginners hurt their hands due to bad fist making.

[Tom Kagan]

Don't try to explain the whole system in one lesson.

Yes. Most sifus don't seem to know how to shut the f@ck up. (Given what's written in this thread, maybe some of them post here? ;-) )

I'm going to be a contrarian today:

It's one class. Try to teach them nothing. Everyone seems to fail at that, of course.

Still, since it's the first class, maybe there should be a one time exception to that rule: teach them the price that day.

[Wu Wei Wu]

The simple fact of the matter is the way Wing Chun is commonly taught (confirmed by the comments here) is to put the art before the fighting. This IMO is the wrong way around.

Go to any boxing, MMA or Muay Thai school and theory is figured out WITHIN framework of;

1) conditioning, and;
2) sparring.

This is why these arts are EFFECTIVE and Wing Chun, not so much.

Suki

[HumbleWCGuy]

The simple fact of the matter is the way Wing Chun is commonly taught (confirmed by the comments here) is to put the art before the fighting. This IMO is the wrong way around.

Go to any boxing, MMA or Muay Thai school and theory is figured out WITHIN framework of;

1) conditioning, and;
2) sparring.

This is why these arts are EFFECTIVE and Wing Chun, not so much.

Suki
Notice the lack of a bullet point mentioning technical foundation. Honestly, I see a lot of guys who claim MMA or Muay Thai who are so lacking in technical ability that had it been me, I would have been embarrassed to get into the ring.
This kind of crap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXXbHywcfI
isn't technically sound at all. What advantage does that type of martial artist have over the average football player? A football player is both conditioned and used to taking punches.

I am not against conditioning, I am just saying that technical base is priority one. If you don't value that as a first lesson then you don't know what you are talking about.

Muay thai is a great art that I like a lot, but I have to think that your understanding of it is what is in that video if you don't appreciate technical understanding. In which case, don't nut hug it so hard because anyone can get into shape and trade hay makers.

Edit:
Let's also consider that you won't go into a Muay Thai school any night of the week and see a bunch of sparring. Striking isn't trained that way. It's always a mix of pads, light sparring, and hard sparring. Seriously dude, get a grip.

[GlennR]

This kind of crap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXXbHywcfI
isn't technically sound at all. What advantage does that type of martial artist have over the average football player? A football player is both conditioned and used to taking punches.

What was wrong with it? His 1st fight, maintained a good guard and posture, effective strikes, and maintained balance and distance.




Muay thai is a great art that I like a lot, but I have to think that your understanding of it is what is in that video if you don't appreciate technical understanding. In which case, don't nut hug it so hard because anyone can get into shape and trade hay makers.

Looked ok to me

[Frost]

What was wrong with it? His 1st fight, maintained a good guard and posture, effective strikes, and maintained balance and distance.





Looked ok to me

of course it would be nice if the technical crowd put some clips up so we could see what they are talking about

and i know noone would doesnt look like that in their first fight its hard to stay composed when you are getting knocked about with real intent for the first time

[GlennR]

of course it would be nice if the technical crowd put some clips up so we could see what they are talking about

and i know noone would doesnt look like that in their first fight its hard to stay composed when you are getting knocked about with real intent for the first time

Yeh, i honestly thought they both looked fine. Id be happy with their performances if i was their coach

[anerlich]

I would teach her to learn how to open and close a heavy swing door.

Why not get her to paint your fence, up down, side side? And then wash your car? :rolleyes:

I agree chi sao is not for the first lessons. There is a basic technical foundation that has to be understood first.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What was wrong with it? His 1st fight, maintained a good guard and posture, effective strikes, and maintained balance and distance.





Looked ok to me

No legit hand combinations: just left hook, right hook, left hook, right hook. Hands held below your chin isn't up.

[HumbleWCGuy]

of course it would be nice if the technical crowd put some clips up so we could see what they are talking about

and i know noone would doesnt look like that in their first fight its hard to stay composed when you are getting knocked about with real intent for the first time

If you know better why don't you post a clip of your sparring. The problem if these kids are taken aside and worked with on technique, that's the best they will look. The same for adults.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeh, i honestly thought they both looked fine. Id be happy with their performances if i was their coach

Thankfully you aren't. Both were punching bags with eyeballs without one credible shred of defense.

[GlennR]

No legit hand combinations: just left hook, right hook, left hook, right hook. Hands held below your chin isn't up.

As i said, 1st fight. Effective combinations arent easy, especially to a novice.

But everyones entitled to their opinion

[Frost]

If you know better why don't you post a clip of your sparring.

lol we have been here before havent we ?

im not the one saying i can do better so is it down to me to post or those that feel its a bad example of fighting?

[GlennR]

Thankfully you aren't. Both were punching bags with eyeballs without one credible shred of defense.

Well i was trying to keep it nice ;)

Im secure in my opinion of the clip so ill leave it at that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

lol we have been here before havent we ?

im not the one saying i can do better so is it down to me to post or those that feel its a bad example of fighting?

Those kids where hitting each other about 100% of the time. One credible act of defense would be enough.

[GlennR]

Those kids where hitting each other about 100% of the time. One credible act of defense would be enough.



http://www.ehow.com/how_2302539_cope-going-blind.html

[Frost]

Those kids where hitting each other about 100% of the time. One credible act of defense would be enough.

couple of punches fell short as did some kicks, you could say that was because the guy defending used footwork defensively, some punches were padded down, a few slipped

No one is argueing its great, what we are saying is most look the same in their first fight, thats all

[HumbleWCGuy]

couple of punches fell short as did some kicks, you could say that was because the guy defending used footwork defensively, some punches were padded down, a few slipped

No one is argueing its great, what we are saying is most look the same in their first fight, thats all

In spite of the jitter factor, I don't think that those kids were worked with enough. My expectation would have been for two legit combinatons and at least some identifiable defense. I will say that they did at least seem to remain balanced in their stances FWIW. My way philosophy on doing that is to introduce all the major techniques over the course of 3 months to a year without a heavy cardio component.

[lance]

My thoughts:
Centerline
Clock theory
Gate theory
Animals
How to make a fist and striking surface
stance
basic footwork (advance, retreat, side step)

HumbleWCGuy , I would teach them history , centerline theory , WC footwork & stances , hand techniques like the blocks & strikes , punches , kicks from all the 3 forms . Sil Lum Tao set for internal development , and how to make use of everthing featured in the set itself .

You may or may not agree with me , but that ' s okay , because you ' re going to teach what you want to teach concerning WC . So the samething I ' m going to do .

Since we ' re all concerned about self defense in general and we ' re on this WC catagory . I would teach the 2 - sets later as they get familiarized more with the self defense techniques from the 3 - sets of WC . Some people learn fast and some people learn slow , and just incase the people need more time and patient to learn the 2 - sets , I would just teach the people the applications from the 3 - sets .

In other words make the class worth it to stay and learn instead of quitting as times goes by for the students . In other styles of kung fu like Hung Gar , choy li fut , they train in more of the horse stance to build their foundation , for WC people do the stance from the Sil Tao Form as a way of developing the foundation too . The difference is that ma bu or horse stance you can feel the power generating in no time , but when you do the Sil Lum Tao stance it takes time to feel the generation of power in the stance as you ' re doing it . But as times goes by our foundation will develop and it ' ll be worth the training for the students .

Teach the students conditioning of the entire body , by encouraging them to wear those hand and forearm protection which they sell at sporting good stores .So they can start to condition themselves on the wooden dummy and teach them how to apply and use the Dit da jow . This is what I would do if I was to teach my own WC class . And to associate more with the students so that I can help each student reach their individual goals in the class . And of coarse chi sao and the weapons training taught as they progress themselves .

[shaolin_allan]

I have an added question for you guys. How long till the first time your sifu had you helping teach the newer students? what type of stuff did you teach them at first that you now would do differently as you have more experience with your system?

[wingchunIan]

The simple fact of the matter is the way Wing Chun is commonly taught (confirmed by the comments here) is to put the art before the fighting. This IMO is the wrong way around.

Go to any boxing, MMA or Muay Thai school and theory is figured out WITHIN framework of;

1) conditioning, and;
2) sparring.

This is why these arts are EFFECTIVE and Wing Chun, not so much.

Suki

As someone who practised MT for many years I'd have to disagree. In a first MT lesson a student is normally taught simple footwork and guard along with the jab and cross, front kick and round kick. The techniques would be trained on pads and combined with cardio work.
Sparring is a way of applying and testing what has already been learned not a place for learning technique

[Wu Wei Wu]

Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

People have interpreted WC as a form based art. Which means the form takes precedence/priority as a teaching method. Some schools dissect the form and construct individual drills, other schools might take elements of the forms and work those movements within the frame of chi sao. (Unusually, some schools might also do pad work and gor sau/sparring but this does not tend to reflect the way fighters would actually fight either in a ring or on the street).

Boxing, MMA and Muay Thai are not form based arts. They take fighting moves and train them within the frameworks of e.g. pad drills, sparring and technical drilling where resistance is provided by partner. In short, you train to fight - you do not train to do forms!!! The question therefore becomes one of realism in the training method. Wing Chun is generally taught in a way that seldom reflects real fighting.

Also IME sparring is a great place to see weaknesses in a fighters game which can help them find new ways of training to eliminate them (i.e. learning technique).

Suki Gosal

[YouKnowWho]

Also IME sparring is a great place to see weaknesses in a fighters game which can help them find new ways of training to eliminate them (i.e. learning technique).
Agree with you 100% there.

The 1st day that I sparred, I realized that when my opponent punched at my head, I didn't have to block it but just to move my head out of the striking path. When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

[LoneTiger108]

When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

Not that I'm a fighter or anything close to it, but from your comment here I would ask immediately who taught you the Wing Chun Forms? Because, imho, they didn't teach you much!

I must be clear too here. There is nothing to go 'searching for' within the forms if you have actually been taught. They're specific and require specific teaching and if you find yourself on your own and without your Sifu before you finish the training, it is only then that you end up searching. And this search can lead you to dead ends much of the time, but that's not the systems fault at all.

To give an example, I spent about 3 years in SLT alone, my Sifu spent 5 without ever seeing CK or BJ. There is much to learn in SLT and many drills that can be used to maximise your understanding (as we are all aware of aren't we?) and I had access to the wooden man, poles and knives during this time. I was also very lucky to have a teacher that encourages questions!!

[LoneTiger108]

People have interpreted WC as a form based art.

I know this is common now Suki, but that is 100% due to Ip Mans influence as it was he who taught his curriculums with the forms as a priority due to the nature of what he wanted to accomplish.

My Sifu, and many others too, do not teach that way at all.

Of course the forms are very very important, and I can say that fme I have coached the entire 1st form without the student knowing that that was what I was doing until I actually showed the 1st form as a whole set. Everything we do originates in SLT and I was harrassed all the time "when you gona teach SLT??!!"

And then you have those 'Mr Miyagi' moments with students ;):D

[CFT]

And then you have those 'Mr Miyagi' moments with students ;):DYou've got very clean cars and now flystudio has white-washed walls? :D

[LoneTiger108]

You've got very clean cars and now flystudio has white-washed walls? :D

LOL! Not exactly what I meant Chee! :D I do all my own chores at Flystudio ;)


I'm talking of those momennts when the 'penny drops' (and not into my pocket either!! :eek:)

[YouKnowWho]

There is nothing to go 'searching for' within the forms ...

This is the general TCMA issue and not just the WC issue. There are only 3 hand skills exist in all MA styles and there are:

1. left arm block and right arm punch.
2. double switching hands (right arm block, left arm takes over the blocking, right arm punches again).
3. dodge and punch back.

Example of 1 are WC Tang Sau and finger attack to the eyes, ... Example of 2 are Taiji "fetching arm", ... Example of 3 are ???

Just because the "solo" form training, your opponent does not exist in your training, to add a "dodging" move in the form make no sense beause there is no reference point. If you only train form, you will not train the "dodging - move your body to be outside of your opponent's striking path" concept enough.

In the other thread "Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?" The guy tried to use his Pak sau to stop the punch instead of moving his body out of the striking path. It's a good example that "dodging" concept might not be part of his daily training.

[anerlich]

In a form where most lineages stand stock still (working "structure"), have next to zero footwork and do not bend the spine or neck during SLT, I find it hard to accept that "dodging" moves are included therein.

Unless you have some clever :rolleyes: TCMA way of training dodging in which you don't actually train dodging.

You probably need to work with a partner anyway as dodging necessarily involves timing and distancing.

Better explain yourself, Spence.

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;1120037]Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

This thread is about what is taught in an opening lesson. I was merely reflecting on the assertion that MT and other arts teach around sparring and conditioning, based upon my experience of MT. I've never come across a good MT school that puts students into sparring in their first lesson and conditioning is a long term result so not relevant. Like WC in MT the techniques are learnt in the air first before hitting pads and bags and progressing on to sparring.
To clarify for other posters, I also never said that sparring wasn't about learning, I said it wasn't a place for learning technique but rather a place for learning how to apply what you have already learnt. Even simple evasion such as bobbing and weaving in MT and boxing is, in my experience, taught "in air" and trained on pads before being explored in sparring.
WC for me is no different learn the shapes, footwork etc, drill it in partner exercises, refine it in forms practice, explore it in chi sau and test it in pressure testing (I don't do sparring). Obviously not everyone trains this way but that is a choice of individuals rather than an inherent property of WC.

Only my opinion of course based on my own experience.

[GlennR]

Agree with you 100% there.

The 1st day that I sparred, I realized that when my opponent punched at my head, I didn't have to block it but just to move my head out of the striking path. When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

Question for you YKW..... do you practice rear weighted stance (90:10) or 50:50?

[YouKnowWho]

Question for you YKW..... do you practice rear weighted stance (90:10) or 50:50?

I like rear weighted stance. But I think 10:90 is too conservative. It's too easy to be run down. If I play offense, I use higher 30:70. If I play defense, I use lower 40:60. I like to use the stance that I can "spring" forward anytime I want to (or spring backward and run like hell).

[GlennR]

I like rear weighted stance. But I think 10:90 is too conservative. It's too easy to be run down. If I play offense, I use higher 30:70. If I play defense, I use lower 40:60. I like to use the stance that I can "spring" forward anytime I want to (or spring backward and run like hell).


Thanks
What i find when using the 10:90 stance is that, if you square the stance up, you can shift your body over the weighted leg which effectively shifts your torso a bit.

Obviously your head moves with it :)

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks
What i find when using the 10:90 stance is that, if you square the stance up, you can shift your body over the weighted leg which effectively shifts your torso a bit.

Obviously your head moves with it :)

That's very true. It's a very important part of the WC concept.

[couch]

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;1120037]Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

This thread is about what is taught in an opening lesson. I was merely reflecting on the assertion that MT and other arts teach around sparring and conditioning, based upon my experience of MT. I've never come across a good MT school that puts students into sparring in their first lesson and conditioning is a long term result so not relevant. Like WC in MT the techniques are learnt in the air first before hitting pads and bags and progressing on to sparring.
To clarify for other posters, I also never said that sparring wasn't about learning, I said it wasn't a place for learning technique but rather a place for learning how to apply what you have already learnt. Even simple evasion such as bobbing and weaving in MT and boxing is, in my experience, taught "in air" and trained on pads before being explored in sparring.
WC for me is no different learn the shapes, footwork etc, drill it in partner exercises, refine it in forms practice, explore it in chi sau and test it in pressure testing (I don't do sparring). Obviously not everyone trains this way but that is a choice of individuals rather than an inherent property of WC.

Only my opinion of course based on my own experience.

Not to gang up on you in any way, shape or form; but I'm wondering how long in your MT school did you kick air for before moving onto pads and heavy bags?

[LoneTiger108]

Unless you have some clever :rolleyes: TCMA way of training dodging in which you don't actually train dodging...

Better explain yourself, Spence.

Explain?? Me??!! Why would anyone listen?

I will just rephrase something I heard recently from a well known guy from a well known family...

"If I dodge out of the way, aren't I in fact preoccupied in getting out of the way, therefore I'm also out of striking distance and mind set?? Is THAT your idea of Wing Chun?"

It's simple really. And again isn't it all in the language??

Dodging is for people who can not committ with no remorse!!! :D;)

Then again, I don't coach striking without remorse on lesson one so any point I'm making here is wasted in a thread that asked such a simple question. Hmmm

[YouKnowWho]

"If I dodge out of the way, aren't I in fact preoccupied in getting out of the way, therefore I'm also out of striking distance and mind set?? Is THAT your idea of Wing Chun?"

Dodging does not mean that you "move out of your striking range" but to "move away from your opponent's striking path". Simple examples are when your opponent uses

- hook punch at your head, you dodge your head under it (without moving away) and then counter with an upper cut.
- straight punch at your head, you lean back your upper body (without moving away) and then counter with a kick.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3853/mayintu.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

A proper fist and how the movements in that boring looking 1st form can be applied for real. ;)

[anerlich]

Dodging is for people who can not committ with no remorse!!!

OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying their were dodging moves in the form, rather than that you had a philosophy of thinking only of striking. Apologies.


I will just rephrase something I heard recently from a well known guy from a well known family...

Who? Ozzy from the Osbournes? If he's well known, why not identify him? Appeal to authority anyway.


"If I dodge out of the way, aren't I in fact preoccupied in getting out of the way, therefore I'm also out of striking distance and mind set?? Is THAT your idea of Wing Chun?"

You can evade punches while remaining in striking distance. You can evade and counterstrike at the same time. This "well known guy from a well known family" might find this difficult or have been poorly taught, but other people don't have such issues.

My idea of Wing Chun is hitting the other guy without getting hit yourself.