Teaching people who are already experienced in a sport art

[SavvySavage]

Do you guys find it hard to teach people with experience in hard hitting sport arts? I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid. At his school they spar twice a week. At my school we spar sporadically.

I admit that I was a bit intimidated by his experience. He was very humble and always wanted to study Chinese martial arts. I find that complete newbs are wowed by tcma but experienced students get bored quick.

How could teaching si lum Tao, stances, and gate theory compare with classes where you hit daily and spar constantly? Like I said so far he is humble but I just don't believe that tcma training compares, in terms of being fun and engaging, with other sport arts.


What's a good way of teaching beginners who aren't beginners? The military does this by breaking you down and building you up. Some martial arts teachers have that attitude but I don't agree that you have to intimidate people to get them to learn.

[Taixuquan99]

Do you guys find it hard to teach people with experience in hard hitting sport arts? I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid. At his school they spar twice a week. At my school we spar sporadically.

I admit that I was a bit intimidated by his experience. He was very humble and always wanted to study Chinese martial arts. I find that complete newbs are wowed by tcma but experienced students get bored quick.

How could teaching si lum Tao, stances, and gate theory compare with classes where you hit daily and spar constantly? Like I said so far he is humble but I just don't believe that tcma training compares, in terms of being fun and engaging, with other sport arts.


What's a good way of teaching beginners who aren't beginners? The military does this by breaking you down and building you up. Some martial arts teachers have that attitude but I don't agree that you have to intimidate people to get them to learn.

First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don't break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.

[SavvySavage]

First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don't break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.


My statement implied the attitude part. A breakdown in attitude will allow someone to see that maybe their sh!t does stink a little.

If a school has an established curriculum it could be hard to teach students differently. I've heard the stories about Yip Man teaching sufferer students differently but they all had to learn the basic curriculum. What if the basic curriculum sucks compared to the stuff people have already done in their mind? They'll just quit I guess.


I guess what I'm trying to ask is what does WC offer to a student already established in a sport art?

[Taixuquan99]

I guess the question is, is wing chun a specific teaching path, or a fighting style? Since there is little agreement on the former from school to school, and universal agreement on the latter, it seems safest to train from the perspective of the latter.

As for attitude, you say he is humble and enjoying it, it seems like there is nothing to break. He chooses to train what you have, then train him well, he'll do with it what he will, just like any other student.

I have a student who does bjj, in my class, I make sure he knows I want him to work on our specific techniques, not as an attack on other techniques he knows, I'm fine with him using them, but because it's what he's at my class for.

Plus, it allows your students to experience how to use their wing chun against other systems.

It's always good to remember that there isn't one perfectly defined way people train wing chun, there are huge variations, and every teacher in the line had their own way of teaching it. We should as well.

[nasmedicine]

First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don't break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.

Agreed. If he's ready teach him something more on his level.

[Taixuquan99]

Additionally, I think that hitting things constantly and even sparring teach things about stance and gate theory as well. I'm not sure that early wing chun proponents were exactly big believers in beginners not getting in fights. Now, we have safer and less illegal and more organized approaches available, with safety equipment.

[Taixuquan99]

Agreed. If he's ready teach him something more on his level.

I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.

[SavvySavage]

I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.

This paragraph could be a huge eye opener for me...I just have to make sure I understand it. Lol.

Are you saying that advanced students should keep training and not teach too early because they'll just be teaching basics?

[Taixuquan99]

Are you saying that advanced students should keep training and not teach too early because they'll just be teaching basics?

Well, it could end up being that. My perspective is, when people become advanced, they are often funneled into teaching when they should be crossing hands with each other, training drills that develop them further, etc. It's not so much, in my view, that they will only teach basics, but that they will not have an advanced understanding of the basics, and so teach by rote what works against other people who learned by rote.

It's like if you finished a Bachelor's degree in engineering, and moved on to pursue a Masters, but only taught all the time, and never pursued your thesis except as a secondary goal. The quality of your understanding would not develop as it could, and your teaching will also suffer for it.

If you spent four years becoming advanced(from a beginner), you should at least spend two years training in advanced classes with advanced people, as an arbitrary guideline. If you help teach a class here and there, it is in addition, not substituting your advanced training.

If a school pursues a similar program geared toward proficiency over turning out instructors, they will have instructors, and ones who teach based on understanding, not teaching by rote what they were taught by rote.

Such a school could accept more easily, as the quality of the school rises, experienced martial artists from other styles, and benefit from exposure to different techniques by the advanced people having to use their style against techniques they didn't have to before.

Just my views.

The difficulty is in how to view the advanced guys who are on the cusp of being qualified to teach. To treat them as perpetual lessers will drive them away, to treat them as cash cows will require you treat them as lessers, which will drive them away. However, since most advanced classes would be based around things like chi sao(and not constant lessons, but constant practice at the advanced level), such classes might attract experienced guys to stay for the enjoyment of knowing 1)I will be playing rounds of chi sao, with a group dedicated to doing so and not chatting and wasting my training time, and 2)I can test new theory #4. Thus, now you have your advanced class surrounded by experienced guys, stealing their usage of the style just to survive, which spreads without having to teach it at all among the experienced guys.

I use chi sao as a topical example, sparring could be part of it, striking drills on pads, etc, non-form, free form application of the techniques from the fprms they know, which will improve their knowledge of the style, and better inform their forms.

[TenTigers]

recognize his skill and talent, and offer him the idea that what you teach is a particular set of skills that will enhance what he already has, rather than replace it, which would put him in a mentally defensive position.
Cross training, or learning other arts is like a set of gears;
you can choose to look at only where the gears clash,
or you can choose to see where they fit in with each other.

[SavvySavage]

recognize his skill and talent, and offer him the idea that what you teach is a particular set of skills that will enhance what he already has, rather than replace it, which would put him in a mentally defensive position.
Cross training, or learning other arts is like a set of gears;
you can choose to look at only where the gears clash,
or you can choose to see where they fit in with each other.

Good stuff, Rik.

How's the new school going?

You going to go to Maryland this weekend for that tournament?

Tanjianshan....whatever :),

Good stuff too. I agree with your philosophy.

A new rule should be put in the registration. Only chose names that are easily pronounced and spellable. Tentigers...easy. Savvysavage...easy

Tia Joan shoe size....not so easy. J/k

[jesper]

just a quick question. why dont you spend more time hitting stuff and doing cardio training.
Your training a martial skill, meant to be used in combat.

[SavvySavage]

just a quick question. why dont you spend more time hitting stuff and doing cardio training.
Your training a martial skill, meant to be used in combat.

We do just not as much as a Thai school. I know two people that train Thai and the bulk of what they do is hit pads.

My WC school has a lot of sticky hand drills, 18ish hung gar forms(I think), technique drilling, stance training,etc. There's a lot to learn in the so called traditional training schedule.
We don't hit bags and pads every class though.

[Taixuquan99]

You should keep in mind that I have a 55-33-2 record in full contact death matches!

Think "tie shoe quan", we do progressive training, the first ten years are spent working on bunny ears.

[TenTigers]

Good stuff, Rik.

How's the new school going? I think Tim Cartmell is coming to Manhattan in November.

You going to go to Maryland this weekend for that tournament?

New school is awesome-great digs, great location, high ceilings for lion dancing!
A lot different than my old location, although I kinda miss the bullet holes in the window...

I will definitely check out Tim's seminar. That last one was great. Although taking falls all weekend is hard on this old body-I'm not fifty anymore!
We just came back from Wash DC, so Maryland is out. Trying to get students together and come up with the cash for another big trip-gas, food, lodging, etc isn't easy.

[SavvySavage]

New school is awesome-great digs, great location, high ceilings for lion dancing!
A lot different than my old location, although I kinda miss the bullet holes in the window...

I will definitely check out Tim's seminar. That last one was great. Although taking falls all weekend is hard on this old body-I'm not fifty anymore!
We just came back from Wash DC, so Maryland is out. Trying to get students together and come up with the cash for another big trip-gas, food, lodging, etc isn't easy.

Try taking falls all weekend after having driven 8 hours and then driving home another 8 hours. I was ready to leave the temple after that. Kwai Chang Kane couldn't have done that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that you are over analyzing the guy. If he didn't value what you had to offer he wouldn't be there. I wouldn't short change him by not running him through all the basics. I would start him out on how to make a proper fist and run him though the whole thing. Just because he is a decent fighter or even if he can kick your butt, who cares? He is there to learn Wing Chun. Teach it to him and don't skimp because you think he knows or won't value it because he studied "big bad Muay Thai." If you now your stuff, you can answer his questions about the differences, he will find a place for the WC that you teach.

[nasmedicine]

I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.

I agree with this as well, we do this at our school. All student train with each other, advance and novice alike. From what I've noticed the skill level of the novice increased exponentially as opposed to lets say 6 years ago when most of the class was just beginning. This can be attributed to the fact that the new student were able to learn from the experience of the more senior students and quickly catch up so that they would not be left behind in class. Furthermore it's motivating to train with people better than yourself so that you have something to aspire to.

[nasmedicine]

I think that you are over analyzing the guy. If he didn't value what you had to offer he wouldn't be there. I wouldn't short change him by not running him through all the basics. I would start him out on how to make a proper fist and run him though the whole thing. Just because he is a decent fighter or even if he can kick your butt, who cares? He is there to learn Wing Chun. Teach it to him and don't skimp because you think he knows or won't value it because he studied "big bad Muay Thai." If you now your stuff, you can answer his questions about the differences, he will find a place for the WC that you teach.

I agree, there is not harm is showing the basics however if the student has the aptitude and ability one should not dwindle on those basics for to long. Basics can be practiced at home once learned, class time is for training that one can not do at home (i.e. chi sao/gor sao and discuss topic/ask questions to senior students/sifu).

[HumbleWCGuy]

I agree, there is not harm is showing the basics however if the student has the aptitude and ability one should not dwindle on those basics for to long. Basics can be practiced at home once learned, class time is for training that one can not do at home (i.e. chi sao/gor sao and discuss topic/ask questions to senior students/sifu).

Absolutely, in fact, I would ask him to show me things. In addition, I would tell him that once he got better steeped in WC methods, I would give him an opportunity to teach to the class if he wanted or I would present some of his material.

[TenTigers]

nothing better for learning how to deal with Muay Thai technique, than to bring in an experienced Muay Thai fighter. This can be a huge asset to your school.

[jesper]

We do just not as much as a Thai school. I know two people that train Thai and the bulk of what they do is hit pads.

My WC school has a lot of sticky hand drills, 18ish hung gar forms(I think), technique drilling, stance training,etc. There's a lot to learn in the so called traditional training schedule.
We don't hit bags and pads every class though.

Dont think many train cardio and pads as much as the Thai tbh :D
Still think it should be done in every class though. Personally I spend around 1/3 on this and the rest on more "technic oriented" drills, but to each their own I guess

[WC1277]

In my experience of teaching someone with time under their belt, whether it be a chunner from another school or another art altogether, is that there will be about 3-6 months of "this is how we do it" statements. While most find that as an example of not being humble it's an excellent opportunity to teach. In fact, even if they are humble, you can ask them how they usually do it to spark the teaching.

By showing them the differences in body mechanics between the two I find that they pick up the concepts and principles a lot quicker than say a newbie. Comparison is always a good thing in teaching conversation as long as ego doesn't get involved.

[Eric_H]

I guess what I'm trying to ask is what does WC offer to a student already established in a sport art?


In WC, we don't trade hits.

As I understand MT, they trade and just look to make the trade as much in their favor as possible (i.e. take a jab for a good leg kick)

He'll probably miss the conditioning of MT, I know I do.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In WC, we don't trade hits.

As I understand MT, they trade and just look to make the trade as much in their favor as possible (i.e. take a jab for a good leg kick)

He'll probably miss the conditioning of MT, I know I do.

That is the flat out truth. There is something to be said for that linear, head banger style, but if you can add a little more finesse to it. It can be pretty sweet.

[GlennR]

Do you guys find it hard to teach people with experience in hard hitting sport arts? I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid. At his school they spar twice a week. At my school we spar sporadically.

I admit that I was a bit intimidated by his experience. He was very humble and always wanted to study Chinese martial arts. I find that complete newbs are wowed by tcma but experienced students get bored quick.

How could teaching si lum Tao, stances, and gate theory compare with classes where you hit daily and spar constantly? Like I said so far he is humble but I just don't believe that tcma training compares, in terms of being fun and engaging, with other sport arts.


What's a good way of teaching beginners who aren't beginners? The military does this by breaking you down and building you up. Some martial arts teachers have that attitude but I don't agree that you have to intimidate people to get them to learn.

Hi Savvy
Im like your student but in reverse, ive left WC ( i still dabble) after many years to take up MT, so i guess i may have a an angle on this?? ;)

MT is about hitting pads... a lot. Its physically hard, repetitive and demanding if you really want to get somewhere at it. You should see what our fighters go through as a build up to a fight.

So maybe he's a bit over that?
If he's done it since he was a kid (how old is he?) maybe he feels that he has explored MT as far as he wishes to, and is looking at something a bit more "subtle" (couldnt think of another word)

And WC is a logical progression from MT, both striking arts with a liking for close in work, dare i say clinch

And as the other poster siad, let him amongst your senior students and see how everyone fairs... it is fighting after all

GlennR

[GlennR]

In WC, we don't trade hits.

As I understand MT, they trade and just look to make the trade as much in their favor as possible (i.e. take a jab for a good leg kick)

He'll probably miss the conditioning of MT, I know I do.


I'll take you up on that Eric, the MT i do doesnt do that but, as you say, maybe some camps do

And yes, the conditioning is fantastsic... why dont WC schools do the same do you think?

[GlennR]

By showing them the differences in body mechanics between the two I find that they pick up the concepts and principles a lot quicker than say a newbie. Comparison is always a good thing in teaching conversation as long as ego doesn't get involved.


Good comment, anyone with a good understanding of body mechanics from a different style should pick up on the new principles pretty quick

[Taixuquan99]

And as the other poster said...

Sure, sure, let's all forget to cite the guy with the unpronounceable name properly!

I see how you people are. Bet if I changed my name to Cthulhu, you people couldn't say it enough, proper spelling and all.

I see how the wing chun forum is.:D

[GlennR]

Sure, sure, let's all forget to cite the guy with the unpronounceable name properly!

I see how you people are. Bet if I changed my name to Cthulhu, you people couldn't say it enough, proper spelling and all.

I see how the wing chun forum is.:D



Not too sure what you are on about here??

[EternalSpring]

I'll take you up on that Eric, the MT i do doesnt do that but, as you say, maybe some camps do

And yes, the conditioning is fantastsic... why dont WC schools do the same do you think?

I guess it varies between schools/families and their approach. In my family we train a good deal of conditioning based on the idea that while it's not our aim to be hit, we still shouldn't expect to not get hit in a fight and should rather know how to continue fighting after being hit rather than letting the hit stop or stun us.

[GlennR]

I guess it varies between schools/families and their approach. In my family we train a good deal of conditioning based on the idea that while it's not our aim to be hit, we still shouldn't expect to not get hit in a fight and should rather know how to continue fighting after being hit rather than letting the hit stop or stun us.

Ok, got you Eric. Yep we are the same, i thought you meant taking a shot to get a favourable position, my mistake.

Do you mix the MT much with your WC?
Or are you pure WC these days?

[EternalSpring]

Ok, got you Eric. Yep we are the same, i thought you meant taking a shot to get a favourable position, my mistake.

Do you mix the MT much with your WC?
Or are you pure WC these days?

Oh, actually, I'm not the guy were you talking to before (eric?), I just jumped into the conversation lol.

But to answer the cross training related question, while I'm not part of any other schools I do try to train at least once a week with a close friend who is a boxer and another who is a MT guy (and a TKDer too but we dont train together as much). With my kung fu bros we often train a lot of low roundhouse kicks on the kicking shield (in appearance it's kinda like a bong gerk turned into a low roundhouse) and I did get a good deal of insight on the kick from my friend who trains Muay thai, same with his use of elbows and clinching. It wasn't exactly something completely new to me but it opened up my understanding on things I had been training before and thus helped me improve those techniques.

[jesper]

I'll take you up on that Eric, the MT i do doesnt do that but, as you say, maybe some camps do

And yes, the conditioning is fantastsic... why dont WC schools do the same do you think?

Many dont seem to train WC as a fighting art I guess.
Or maybe they are deluding themselves that you dont need to do conditioning training if you want to be a good fighter.

[wingchunIan]

Not sure that its delusion. I trained MT for years and loved it but the conditioning is in two forms. Conditioning the shins isn't far different from the hand conditioning WC students do on the wall bag remember in MT the shin is a primary striking area as well as a bone on bone blocking surface. The general body conditioning is altogether different and is a product of MT being a sport. As a sport participants have to perform for a set period (ie number of rounds) and fights last a relatively long time due to the gloves worn and the conditioning of the fighters. If your WC has no sporting connotation then general body conditioning is not really needed as most street fights will be over in a relatively short period. Additionally MT does not have to worry about weapons of any kind and hence condition to be able to take blows to the abdomen without having to lower the hands away from protecting the head / striking, for street focused arts this is a high risk strategy and generally avoided. Conditioning to a high level takes time (lots of it) and dedication, in non sports aimed arts this time is arguably better spent doing other things. Only my opinion.

[jesper]

Not sure that its delusion. I trained MT for years and loved it but the conditioning is in two forms. Conditioning the shins isn't far different from the hand conditioning WC students do on the wall bag remember in MT the shin is a primary striking area as well as a bone on bone blocking surface. The general body conditioning is altogether different and is a product of MT being a sport. As a sport participants have to perform for a set period (ie number of rounds) and fights last a relatively long time due to the gloves worn and the conditioning of the fighters. If your WC has no sporting connotation then general body conditioning is not really needed as most street fights will be over in a relatively short period. Additionally MT does not have to worry about weapons of any kind and hence condition to be able to take blows to the abdomen without having to lower the hands away from protecting the head / striking, for street focused arts this is a high risk strategy and generally avoided. Conditioning to a high level takes time (lots of it) and dedication, in non sports aimed arts this time is arguably better spent doing other things. Only my opinion.

Let me put it this way. In high stress situations, like when your life is at risk you only perform at around 40% of the bodys max performance.
So if your not in great shape, good luck

[HumbleWCGuy]

Let me put it this way. In high stress situations, like when your life is at risk you only perform at around 40% of the bodys max performance.
So if your not in great shape, good luck

I think that there are some inherent problems with that theory especially if someone has had experience in a situation. I have been in about 20 street confrontations. The last one, my pulse barely raised.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Let me put it this way. In high stress situations, like when your life is at risk you only perform at around 40% of the bodys max performance.
So if your not in great shape, good luck

If I had to guess, what Ian is getting at, isn't that conditioning isn't important. If you aren't fighting competitively, three hours of conditioning per day is too much. Go and enjoy your life. Finish college, get a promotion at work, and so on...

[jesper]

I think that there are some inherent problems with that theory especially if someone has had experience in a situation. I have been in about 20 street confrontations. The last one, my pulse barely raised.

Its actually well tested, and used by many professional armies to better teach soldiers survival skills.

If you want to be efficient in combat its very important to know how stress influence your body.

In general you can divide stress up in different sub levels

WHITE: this is your normal stress level when your asleep, relaxing etc
YELLOW: now your being allert, but your heartrate wont be noticable hightent. Fx most predators, like dogs etc are constantly in condition yellow since your able to respond at a moments notice.
RED: this is the stress level where you will perform at your peak. your pulse will be raised as well as your vision and hearing. You will also be able to perform at max intensity, but you will feel a tingle in your fingers because blood will start to withdraw from your extremeties. If you have ever been in a car accident fx or suddenly got spooked you will know this feeling.
Now if for whatever reason you havent been trained to handle your stress influence and keep it at level Yellow or red, you will enter next fase.
GRAY: Now you will loose control of your complex motorskills. Another thing that will happen is that you will start to move your arm in syncronised pattern. Fx you will raise both arms at same time etc. This will also happen if you get caught by suprise, now 4 things will happen within 150ms. you will blink, your head and body will move forward, you will bend your elbows and make fists.
Last fase is condition BLACK: now you will loose periphial vision, you will start making irrational actions because you will not recieve enough blood to your heart and brain, and you will not be able to formulate a clear thought pattern. Other then that your body will also "skip a step" and send impulses directly to your middle and lower brain, thus skipping the rational part. that is what is known as fight or flight pattern, where you have no control.

Now in general what happens is that with higher stress levels, you get higher puls ratings. thats the bad part
The good part is that you can learn to control most of your stress via two things.

Conditioning and perception.

Conditioning helps the body to better cope with higher puls rating

With perception is meant that known factors will give you lesser stress influence then unknown. so fx you will be more stressed the first time you do any physical act, then the second or third etc. So if you train a given scenario you will progressively be less stressed each time.

So back to your example. you have fought alot, and thereby conditioned your body and mind via perception to cope with that. Now put in an unknown factor like say he pulls a gun/knife on your and boom your in unknown territory and your stress factor will rise.

Sorry for the wall of text but this was as short a description I could make :)

[GlennR]

I think that there are some inherent problems with that theory especially if someone has had experience in a situation. I have been in about 20 street confrontations. The last one, my pulse barely raised.

Fair call, ive known some fat out of shape killing machines over the years. But, as a guy in his 40's, im glad ive done the hard yards of conditioning as its prolonging my ability to mix it with the younger stronger guys. Not to mention the day to day benefits of just being fitter.

I guess it depends on what you want out of it

[GlennR]

Oh, actually, I'm not the guy were you talking to before (eric?), I just jumped into the conversation lol.

But to answer the cross training related question, while I'm not part of any other schools I do try to train at least once a week with a close friend who is a boxer and another who is a MT guy (and a TKDer too but we dont train together as much). With my kung fu bros we often train a lot of low roundhouse kicks on the kicking shield (in appearance it's kinda like a bong gerk turned into a low roundhouse) and I did get a good deal of insight on the kick from my friend who trains Muay thai, same with his use of elbows and clinching. It wasn't exactly something completely new to me but it opened up my understanding on things I had been training before and thus helped me improve those techniques.

Sorry Eternal, my mistake.
Good to hera youre getting something out of your cross training

[YouKnowWho]

I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid.
Teach what he doesn't know. Don't teach what he already knows.

If you are a WC teacher and your student has strong MT background, if he use the WC skill that you taught him to beat his MT opponent in the ring, his success will enhance your confidence in the style that you are teaching.

I have a new student who has 15 years in wrestling. After just 3 months of lesson, he could use what I taught him and won the 2nd place in grappling tournament (mix of wrestling, Sambo, and BJJ). If you have a student that can use what you have taught him and test that skill against people from other styles, his feed back information will be very valuable to you.

[anerlich]

The CDC indicates your likelihood of dying from lifestyle related heart disease is more likely than dying as a result of a violent assault by several orders of magnitude.

Consider that when evaluating your training priorities.


I have been in about 20 street confrontations. The last one, my pulse barely raised.

Last few touchy situations I was in I resolved without getting physical at all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Guys, I am not against conditioning. I am just just challenging the fact that you become 40% less efficient if you are experienced.

Being nearly 40 myself, I understand conditioning as a health benefit, but I am not trying to condition for 3 hours per day like I am getting ready for a fight. I am too old to be getting back in the ring.

[Wayfaring]

What exactly is a "sport" art? And if you are calling MT that, what exactly is it in contrast to with WC? What kind of art is WC? A "street" art? A "self-defense" art?

The problem is not with a guy with a MT background wanting to study WC. The problem is with the myopia surrounding training methods in WC.

Sure a guy used to conditioning workouts with pads and sparring 2x a week is not going to be very fulfilled doing forms, light chi sau, and an hour of spouting off philosophy of "street" defense and/or culture. Or won't be for long.

This actually is the perfect opportunity to upgrade the training methods of your WC to include something that will elevate the heart rate, get the blood flowing, and put in some good old fashioned competition based conditioning into your training methods.

Or the other option which is much more prevalent is to label something and not learn from it. Like "sport" art. Let me ask you this - If every single person training in your club got mugged tomorrow by a 225 lb crazed male, how many of them do you think would do as well as your "sport" art trained guy in handling the situation? So in reality what is it that you're training? A "martial" art? Or something different?

[Wayfaring]

Guys, I am not against conditioning. I am just just challenging the fact that you become 40% less efficient if you are experienced.

Being nearly 40 myself, I understand conditioning as a health benefit, but I am not trying to condition for 3 hours per day like I am getting ready for a fight. I am too old to be getting back in the ring.

Do you mean more efficient? I would think that experience would allow a person to handle situations with more efficiency.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you mean more efficient? I would think that experience would allow a person to handle situations with more efficiency.

I think that it read okay? Someone said that your performance drops by 40% in a life and death or real situations.


Exactly, I think that experience allows you to overcome problems that people experience with the jitters.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a question for everybody. If you are teaching an anti-terrorist group, will you:

- still teach the same way as you did?
- modify your teaching method to meet the need?

[k gledhill]

Here is a question for everybody. If you are teaching an anti-terrorist group, will you:

- still teach the same way as you did?
- modify your teaching method to meet the need?

I teach them the same.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Here is a question for everybody. If you are teaching an anti-terrorist group, will you:

- still teach the same way as you did?
- modify your teaching method to meet the need?

It depends. If some guys are showing up off the street to learn the full art, then I might not do much differently. Maybe, more knife defense and weapons?

If I am being payed to teach an anti-terrorist group something in a seminar format or an 8 week course where they are looking to have answers to specific situations, I would just teach to that.

[anerlich]

Here is a question for everybody. If you are teaching an anti-terrorist group, will you:

- still teach the same way as you did?
- modify your teaching method to meet the need?


I can't see that happening to anyone on this forum in my wildest dreams, but ...

I know someone who has done such things professionally and successfully for decades. He has had repeat business with the US Marines in Quantico (unlike the head of a famous MA family who was shown the door after a couple of hours) and has been and still is a consultant to the Australian Army and various police Special Operations groups.

He ALWAYS spends time with the senior people in the group and finds out what they want. These people know far more about real combat, and what they need, than you ever will. They usually have specific needs and/or are looking for specific problems in specific environments which are very different from those of the civilian who pays monthly fees.

They know more than you about what they want and need. If they don't, move to another country or city quick smart.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I can't see that happening to anyone on this forum in my wildest dreams, but ...

I know someone who has done such things professionally and successfully for decades. He has had repeat business with the US Marines in Quantico (unlike the head of a famous MA family who was shown the door after a couple of hours) and has been and still is a consultant to the Australian Army and various police Special Operations groups.

He ALWAYS spends time with the senior people in the group and finds out what they want. These people know far more about real combat, and what they need, than you ever will. They usually have specific needs and/or are looking for specific problems in specific environments which are very different from those of the civilian who pays monthly fees.

They know more than you about what they want and need. If they don't, move to another country or city quick smart.
Okay, you threw it out there so which head of a famous martial arts family are you talking about? Quantico is usually associated with the FBI. There is a Marine base there.

[GlennR]

What exactly is a "sport" art? And if you are calling MT that, what exactly is it in contrast to with WC? What kind of art is WC? A "street" art? A "self-defense" art?

The problem is not with a guy with a MT background wanting to study WC. The problem is with the myopia surrounding training methods in WC.

Sure a guy used to conditioning workouts with pads and sparring 2x a week is not going to be very fulfilled doing forms, light chi sau, and an hour of spouting off philosophy of "street" defense and/or culture. Or won't be for long.

This actually is the perfect opportunity to upgrade the training methods of your WC to include something that will elevate the heart rate, get the blood flowing, and put in some good old fashioned competition based conditioning into your training methods.

Or the other option which is much more prevalent is to label something and not learn from it. Like "sport" art. Let me ask you this - If every single person training in your club got mugged tomorrow by a 225 lb crazed male, how many of them do you think would do as well as your "sport" art trained guy in handling the situation? So in reality what is it that you're training? A "martial" art? Or something different?

Well put Wayfaring.
One thing people also overlook is that if they are conditioned, they take a hit a lot better..... so its not just all about the delivery, its accepting that you will get hit

[GlennR]

Okay, you threw it out there so which head of a famous martial arts family are you talking about? Quantico is usually associated with the FBI. There is a Marine base there.

The Adams family?

[EternalSpring]

What exactly is a "sport" art? And if you are calling MT that, what exactly is it in contrast to with WC? What kind of art is WC? A "street" art? A "self-defense" art?


Just to shed some light on my opinion of this, I'd say that a "sport" art refers to any martial art applied to a sport with rules (inb4: Thanks a lot Captain Obvious). This isn't to say that it's not applicable outside of a ring, but rather that it's practiced with the mentality of fighting in a ring setting with rules. Isn't MT itself a modified form of older arts like Muay Boran (correct me if im wrong because i dont know MT history that well) made for the purpose of safe competition with combat sports? Now again, I'm always open to correction but from my understanding, the arts like Muay Boran are still more applicable in "no rules" combat in comparison to its modern day equivalent. If this is true I'd say that the reason for this is because MT is a combat sport and has no aim to kill the way that MB did when it was used in war-type settings. A combat sport or sport art aims to get the hits or the win within some sort of framework of rules/limitations while a "non sport" art simply aims to accomplish victory by any means possible.

I guess the answer really lies in this question: Is there a different between a combat sport and a martial art?

[anerlich]

Okay, you threw it out there so which head of a famous martial arts family are you talking about?

Enjoy the mystery.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So one thing I want to say about getting the "big gigs." Some of that is about name. Being an author or affiliated with a name is more important than actual ability. I have seen several nobodies do as well as a name in terms of police defensive tactics and the like.

[anerlich]

So one thing I want to say about getting the "big gigs." Some of that is about name. Being an author or affiliated with a name is more important than actual ability. I have seen several nobodies do as well as a name in terms of police defensive tactics and the like.

The prospective employers would want to see some sort of track record. Wouldn't you?

That said, the true test of competence is whether you get asked back a second time.

[jesper]

The prospective employers would want to see some sort of track record. Wouldn't you?

That said, the true test of competence is whether you get asked back a second time.

When one of the german WT instructors where asked to showcase for GSG9, he started with telling about the theories of WT. They told him to screw that and put on some gloves to show it worked.

That being said, not many military institutions spend time much time on H2H combat. If you meet soldiers that are good at it its usually because they train in their spare time.

[Wayfaring]

Just to shed some light on my opinion of this, I'd say that a "sport" art refers to any martial art applied to a sport with rules (inb4: Thanks a lot Captain Obvious). This isn't to say that it's not applicable outside of a ring, but rather that it's practiced with the mentality of fighting in a ring setting with rules. Isn't MT itself a modified form of older arts like Muay Boran (correct me if im wrong because i dont know MT history that well) made for the purpose of safe competition with combat sports? Now again, I'm always open to correction but from my understanding, the arts like Muay Boran are still more applicable in "no rules" combat in comparison to its modern day equivalent. If this is true I'd say that the reason for this is because MT is a combat sport and has no aim to kill the way that MB did when it was used in war-type settings. A combat sport or sport art aims to get the hits or the win within some sort of framework of rules/limitations while a "non sport" art simply aims to accomplish victory by any means possible.

I guess the answer really lies in this question: Is there a different between a combat sport and a martial art?

An old argument. However from the most basic understanding the sport element or competition games were developed to keep warriors skills up to speed in times of peace.

Today this argument many times degrades to people who think they train something "too deadly" for sport, and hence neglect the attribute development necessary to exel in competition. Those types of "warriors" never had the same types of skills except with a keyboard.

[Wayfaring]

That being said, not many military institutions spend time much time on H2H combat. If you meet soldiers that are good at it its usually because they train in their spare time.

Of course an abstract measure of quality can be to see where special forces guys and others like police force / swat / etc. train on their own time....

[EternalSpring]

An old argument. However from the most basic understanding the sport element or competition games were developed to keep warriors skills up to speed in times of peace.

Today this argument many times degrades to people who think they train something "too deadly" for sport, and hence neglect the attribute development necessary to exel in competition. Those types of "warriors" never had the same types of skills except with a keyboard.

Well for one, I wasn't really putting forward an argument (what exactly do you think I'm arguing for when I've already said both types or arts can be applied outside of a ring?)

Also, as far as the people you mention in the second paragraph, they're definitely at fault, I think most people would agree on that. Either way, what you mention applies two ways because there are many people who train only for sport thinking that they're the only one's who "test" their art and forget that they are taking part in a sport and then go out into the world fighting as if they dont have groins and other vital parts. Both sides are doing something "wrong."

Regardless, I dont think anything you mentioned really responded to what I was saying, you kinda labelled it as an argument, which is was not (unless you can point out exactly what I'm arguing for, maybe I said something without realizing, but so far I dont see what you're referring to as an argument). I think what I mentioned in regards to exclusive traits of combat sports still is true, I never said that combat sports/arts are not applicable and deadly outside of a ring, but as far as my understanding goes, people in the ring are not (or at least aren't supposed to be) trying to kill each other or damage each other, they're trying to win according to rules.

[Wayfaring]

Well for one, I wasn't really putting forward an argument (what exactly do you think I'm arguing for when I've already said both types or arts can be applied outside of a ring?)

You weren't. The topic in discussion has a standard old argument attached.



Also, as far as the people you mention in the second paragraph, they're definitely at fault, I think most people would agree on that. Either way, what you mention applies two ways because there are many people who train only for sport thinking that they're the only one's who "test" their art and forget that they are taking part in a sport and then go out into the world fighting as if they dont have groins and other vital parts. Both sides are doing something "wrong."

Good point, and accurate.



Regardless, I dont think anything you mentioned really responded to what I was saying, you kinda labelled it as an argument, which is was not (unless you can point out exactly what I'm arguing for, maybe I said something without realizing, but so far I dont see what you're referring to as an argument). I think what I mentioned in regards to exclusive traits of combat sports still is true, I never said that combat sports/arts are not applicable and deadly outside of a ring, but as far as my understanding goes, people in the ring are not (or at least aren't supposed to be) trying to kill each other or damage each other, they're trying to win according to rules.

The problem with this is how to train trying to kill each other. Highly competitive sports bouts are probably closer to trying to kill each other than most other ways of compliant training approximate for "non-sport" arts.

Funny, I was just watching the "Ip Man" movie last night - where one of the Hong Kong martial arts instructors got killed in the ring by a western boxer, then Ip Man defeated the boxer.