Need advice on a serious matter.

[xcakid]

I have been with my sifu now since his school opened. Since then I have been there, I have been an asst. instructor and a black belt instructor, videographer, admin on our FB and youtube pages.

Over the past 5yrs. the school has grown to roughly 140 students. Since then we have added on numerous asst. instructors, mainly teens. Since then, my sifu has left his day job and is now doing this full time and supporting his family(wife/2kids) as a CMA school owner. Since then, I have seen the school become more commercial and discipline has dropped. I also feel that since the influx of having asst. instructors, quality of instruction has dropped as well. Much of the Sr. Black Belts have families or demanding jobs and cannot really be at the school often to help guide. The new black belts really still do not know what they are doing. Some of the more senior black belts seem to not care.

I have expressed some of my concerns to my sifu, but really have not had a serious talk with him about it in detail. One suggestion I have made which I think will make an impact is having an instructors only class so that all of us are on the same page. He has addressed some of the issues, but after a while people just seem to forget and back to the old it goes. I, as a black belt instructor, try to emphasize or instill certain things but sometimes goes on deft ears. And I don't always want to keep running to sifu tattle telling on people when they don't listen or listen only until you are done talking.

I have owned my own school before and I under the fact that you have a delicate balance between being too traditional and trying to earn a living. It is this understanding that I realized, I am really not into commercial schools. I am finally at a point where I have decided to leave the school. I need advise on what to tell him. I have an upcoming knee surgery and was thinking of using that as an excuse of my exit. Or do I sit down with him and tell him why I am leaving.

[MasterKiller]

I need advise on what to tell him. I have an upcoming knee surgery and was thinking of using that as an excuse of my exit. Or do I sit down with him and tell him why I am leaving.

You've already talked to him about the problem, but it's obvious that things aren't going to change. I would just tell him you feel you need a break. That way there are no hard feelings.

[GeneChing]

As any school grows, it will encounter this problem. At the school I train at now, there's a division. There's a huge kids' class - but there are small cells of more serious practitioners.

I wouldn't make a grandiose exit. Like the bailing posts we get here, a loud exit does little but annoy everyone. Try a short break first and see. The knee surgery provides a good out, regardless.

Inevitably, you got to train somewhere. Is there another school where you could go?

[bawang]

the man got lured by easy money and sold out. just go

[Punch.HeadButt]

I was in a similar situation. My old boss opened a school (wouldn't say he was really my teacher or sifu) and asked me to help. To me, it felt like we opened it together, and for years it was just the two of us teaching. Long story short, the same thing happened in regards to quality control. I waited for an opportunity to leave that wouldn't leave my boss in a lurch...he had more help coming from China and it was a good time of year. I left by saying I wanted to go back to school (which I did) and wouldn't have time to work there anymore.

Years later, the school has shut down under less-than-amicable circumstances. I actually stopped by just yesterday to see if I could pick up some of my old weights that I had left there for the benefit of the students. No one was there and the door was wide open (I still had a key if it wasn't)...a bunch of trophies were still just sitting there. Things were torn up/out, everything was shuffled...It was a very trippy experience. It looked exactly like it did when we were first setting up...it was just going in a different direction. At least my weights were still there.

Anyway, with that ramble out of the way, I agree with both MK and Gene...don't make a big exit and don't bother telling your Sifu all the reasons your leaving if he's not interested in making the changes you seek (and if he's supporting a family off the school alone, he's probably going to want to keep it commercial). I'd just make the transition as smooth as possible, without burning any bridges.

[Brule]

Taking a small break is a good start and legit since you'll be having surgery. One thing i do suggest, is when you are healthy again to train, go back to the school and see how things are. If things are the same, then best thing to do is talk to your Sifu and let him know your plan, don't just leave in a huff, burning bridges is never a good thing. You never know, he might see your point and make the necessary change.

Problem when small schools get "big" is that there is a drop off in quality instruction. You may also see it from your instructors side in that he's now doing this full time and his goal is to grow. He is probably focusing all his energy on that right now without realizing what he may be foregoing in the process.

[Brule]

the man got lured by easy money and sold out. just go

so, wanting to make a living from something you like doing is selling out?

[bawang]

wanting to make money from kung fu sacrificing quality and dignity is selling out

the fact hes considering leaving already shows there is a problem

[Brule]

then by your standards, everyone is selling out cause nobody has the real kung fu except for maybe your mentor david ross?

[bawang]

are you challenging me?

[Brule]

yes, meet me at the Banyon Grove with your northern spear at midnight. Make sure you wear these.....

http://www.superiormartialarts.com/images24/U015P%5B1%5D.jpg

[xcakid]

As any school grows, it will encounter this problem. At the school I train at now, there's a division. There's a huge kids' class - but there are small cells of more serious practitioners.

I wouldn't make a grandiose exit. Like the bailing posts we get here, a loud exit does little but annoy everyone. Try a short break first and see. The knee surgery provides a good out, regardless.

Inevitably, you got to train somewhere. Is there another school where you could go?

No I don't really. The only other school I would want to train under is GM Lee's white leopard school. He knows me and know my sifu well. My sifu studied with him for a time. Given that, I don't know if he will take me. Dallas is a CMA wasteland. The other school I would consider is the Mantis school in Ft. Worth. Which is 1hr to 1.5hr drive depending on traffic.

I have been tossing around the idea of picking up Ying Jow Pai again. Master Aronson is in Houston and if he would take me on a private student I would be willing to make the trip down once or twice a month to study. I will be talking with him at the tournament. Other than that, train on my own as I did prior to training at this school.

The other thing is I have a key to the school. Also passwords to youtube, FB and the website. I can't really just walk away quietly. I would eventually have to tell him something. When I relinquish all that.

[bawang]

of course you can walk away quietly. you will only make a scene if you want to.

[SPJ]

quiet exiting

or slowly moving away and moving on.

---

or just always in touch.

it is a growing pain for any school.

as the group gets bigger, everyone will not be as close or as tight when it was a smaller group.

---

:(

[xcakid]

He is probably focusing all his energy on that right now without realizing what he may be foregoing in the process.

That is exactly where he is at right now.

[bawang]

or maybe he likes making a lot of money. id do it if i can make 100k a year taeching little kids and empty eyed 40 year olds to prance around limply.

[GeneChing]

And don't decide until after your knee surgery. That could be a game-changer.

We'll chat more about this soon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60408), I'm sure.

[rett]

All the good advice about don't burn bridges, don't commit too early, save face all around, if you do gotta go just ramble on and dump no guilt trips, all that sounds good. Also, if you do leave, try to go back for a social visit once in a while.

[lkfmdc]

People open up martial arts schools thinking they are following their dreams. Frequently they find that it has turned into a nightmare. You struggle everyday to pay your bills, your friends and family tell you that you are wasting your time and your money, many instructors have found themselves in debt

Right now, if you turn to ANY of the organizations that offer business advice to martial arts school owners you will be told to "dumb down" what you are doing, NOT to make people work to hard and be buried in a wide variety of "schemes" designed supposedly to produce more income

Now back to reality. An instructor can NOT teach every class. And frankly, you don't want him to. He'll be burnt out and of no use.

So you DO need assistant instructors

In my school, 50% of them are "black belts" who have been with me for YEARS. The other 50% are also pretty advanced people (mostly fighters)

But in some cases, you have to realize that those people may not exist in a realitively new school. So you get what you can.

Again, the "mainstream" martial arts business "professionals" will tell you that any ****ed fool can teach... that is the state of the industry

I personally prefer to have a "black belt" class or advanced only classes for those who teach classes for me. Since they teach they need extra classes to make up for it

If the transition to "new full time school" is pretty recent, you have to give the guy time to come to grips with things. YOu may also have to realize that just becuase YOU want discipline and hard training doesn't mean many of the other students want the same. Train yourslef hard and don't worry about the rest

[David Jamieson]

I think it would be in your best interest to be forthright about how you feel and to lay out your next steps, which will be surgery and moving on from your sifus club because it has become too commercial for your tastes.

If this angers him, there's nothing you can do about that.

Using "excuses" is a weasel move. Stand up, say your piece and if you cannot resolve, move on. You're both grown ups and it's not like a breakup.

If the relationship can't withstand that, then it probably wasn't going to be a source for you anymore anyway.

Also, you've been there long enough now that it would surprising if the law of diminishing returns hasn't kicked in with you yet.

Bottom line is that eventually you have to wear your kung fu. Making excuses and dancing around is NOT having Kung Fu. Saying what you feel is the trut of the matter IS having Kung Fu.

Just an observation. be honest, be forthright, speak, act.

(in my opinion, if you don't do this you will demonstrate you have learned nothing)

I apologize if that's harsh for you and you need more time, but when I finally decided to sh1t as opposed to staying on the pot, I did and it made huge changes for the better.

[Lokhopkuen]

Prolly a foregone concept:rolleyes:
I've been with the same teacher since 1979 through thick and thin.

[bawang]

honor is more important than loyalty

[Taixuquan99]

Not being there, it's hard to judge. Are the black belts less qualified than you were at that stage, and are you judging this on fair criteria?

[taai gihk yahn]

Prolly a foregone concept:rolleyes:
I've been with the same teacher since 1979 through thick and thin.

this may hold true for you, but that doesn't mean you can apply it across the board (especially not in such a smug, sarcastic manner - altho that is your typical m.o. for posting, I will concur, so perhaps you have difficulty expressing yourself in more socially appropriate manner; but whatever, even tho it's the new and improved form, I guess some are just unable to catch that vibe)

well, it's a two-way street: if you are loyal to your teacher, he should be loyal to you; if he is not taking care of you the way a "teaching father" should, than you are under no obligation at all; maybe your sifu did that, through :thick and thin" and if he did, then you are correct in playing the loyalty card, because it was reciprocated; but in this case, the sifu has clearly put his business in front of his student's ontological well-being - which is fine, of course, it's his livelyhood; but at the same time, this basically absolves the student's responsibility to do the same;

when your teacher's actions put you at risk in a way that demonstrates lack of concern on their part, you have every right to leave, and you are an idiot if you don't;

[Darthlawyer]

A piece of advice that a friend once gave me in a completely different situation is this:

"Discuss the problem, then wait 90 days to see if there is any change. If you still want out then, your decision should be made."

This advice was given to me in the case of an employment situation, but I've used in in relationships (romantic, friendly, and professional). It provides an opportunity for change, but keeps me from hanging on needlessly to a bad situation. If you have already had a discussion, it may be time to branch out.

One thing I would consider, if your most important point is your martial development is this: when was the last time that your instructor really helped you increase your ability?

You don't have to be a babysitter for all the other students. If they like the level of challenge, they will stay, if not, they can leave. You are responsible for yourself.

[omarthefish]

Now back to reality. An instructor can NOT teach every class. And frankly, you don't want him to. He'll be burnt out and of no use.

So you DO need assistant instructors

In my school, 50% of them are "black belts" who have been with me for YEARS. The other 50% are also pretty advanced people (mostly fighters)

But in some cases, you have to realize that those people may not exist in a realitively new school. So you get what you can.

How did you manage it when you were first starting up? Did you teach and informal group for several years before you opened a school or did you just get a bunch of capital together and jump right in from the get-go? If it's the former, any clues on how you made the transition would be great. If it's the latter, how did you manage the early years when you had no black belts under you?

Serious question.

[HumbleWCGuy]

1. Your training is only about you so stop worrying about other people.
2. The scrubs that you want to shape up are paying the bills at your training facility.
3. If you want to train people the, "right way," open a garage school and charge a nominal fee.
4. Really think about what matters to you and your training and leave the rest alone.

[lkfmdc]

How did you manage it when you were first starting up? Did you teach and informal group for several years before you opened a school or did you just get a bunch of capital together and jump right in from the get-go? If it's the former, any clues on how you made the transition would be great. If it's the latter, how did you manage the early years when you had no black belts under you?

Serious question.

I started off teaching everyone and all the classes, I was burnt out frequently, but I am also very stubborn so I guess that helped.

It took YEARS until I got the hang of it. Again, most people burn out or drop out or go bankrupt before they do. So I have some sympathy for this

[omarthefish]

Sincere thanks for the straight answer.

[lkfmdc]

I could write pages on this subject, but let's not side track this thread too much

[omarthefish]

It's cool. I wasn't expecting a dissertation. ;)

[rett]

Using "excuses" is a weasel move. Stand up, say your piece and if you cannot resolve, move on.

Just an observation. be honest, be forthright, speak, act.


That really depends. What you say can be completely right. But sometimes being honest, forthright etc. is just an expression of ego that doesn't care about bruising the surrounding social network. We tell ourselves how upright and honorable we're being... but that very fact should warn us: we're making it into all about me me me.

The only reason to complain about the commercialization is if you honestly believe things could change for the better, and you want to be constructive and give it a shot. But if you've already decided to leave, it's not being a "weasel" to do it in a polite and friendly manner with a harmless excuse.

Sometimes it might be better to leave like a bee leaving the flower patch. You got your pollen, there's no more for you, but you leave the flowers undisturbed.

[Lokhopkuen]

What am I? Flypaper for freaks?

Dude please feel free to put words in my mouth like smug, sarcastic while projecting your version of what is socially appropriate:rolleyes: A sharp tongue does not mean you have a keen mind and I'd really like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my a s s.
:( didn't mean to hurt feelings dear taai gihk yahn I'm just sticking with the theme of these fine forums...

I'm a nice guy, really


Live long and prosper:p


this may hold true for you, but that doesn't mean you can apply it across the board (especially not in such a smug, sarcastic manner - altho that is your typical m.o. for posting, I will concur, so perhaps you have difficulty expressing yourself in more socially appropriate manner; but whatever, even tho it's the new and improved form, I guess some are just unable to catch that vibe)

well, it's a two-way street: if you are loyal to your teacher, he should be loyal to you; if he is not taking care of you the way a "teaching father" should, than you are under no obligation at all; maybe your sifu did that, through :thick and thin" and if he did, then you are correct in playing the loyalty card, because it was reciprocated; but in this case, the sifu has clearly put his business in front of his student's ontological well-being - which is fine, of course, it's his livelyhood; but at the same time, this basically absolves the student's responsibility to do the same;

when your teacher's actions put you at risk in a way that demonstrates lack of concern on their part, you have every right to leave, and you are an idiot if you don't;

[Lokhopkuen]

honor is more important than loyalty

All a matter of perspective.

[Scott R. Brown]

I started off teaching everyone and all the classes, I was burnt out frequently, but I am also very stubborn so I guess that helped.

It took YEARS until I got the hang of it. Again, most people burn out or drop out or go bankrupt before they do. So I have some sympathy for this

NO!!!!!:eek:

NOT YOU????:eek::eek:

[David Jamieson]

Honesty and forthrightness are hallmarks of loyalty.

Not telling someone how you feel about a situation you are directly involved with is about as disloyal as it gets.

Imo.

[wenshu]

Honesty and forthrightness are hallmarks of loyalty.

Not telling someone how you feel about a situation you are directly involved with is about as disloyal as it gets.

Imo.

Giving false witness? Protecting someone from potentially painful information? False speech is actually a hallmark of loyalty.

There are degrees and gradations of loyalty and in many circumstances being disloyal is completely justified and even necessary.

[bawang]

All a matter of perspective.

nope

dfgdfgfdg

[lkfmdc]

Honesty and forthrightness are hallmarks of loyalty.

Not telling someone how you feel about a situation you are directly involved with is about as disloyal as it gets.

Imo.

I used to have a business partner. I was the "hot head" I'd scream at students and staff and tell them when they messed up. He was the "cool guy" because he would act like he didn't care but then he'd "black ball" them in his mind and later on mess with them or ignore them. Often people didn't know he was even upset with them, or WHY.

With me, you always knew (and know) WHAT and WHY I am upset, I tell you to your face, I expect you to correct it and if you do, fine, move on from there

In retrospect, a lot of people came to prefer my approach

[Lokhopkuen]

Two perfect examples of alternate perspective from David and Wenshu....

[David Jamieson]

Two perfect examples of alternate perspective from David and Wenshu....

I'll say! lol

But, I would add, Wenshu is describing what I view as a corrupted idea of loyalty. It is in fact exercised in this manner and deemed a form of loyalty to lie about or to deceive in order to maintain one persons power. I recognize that.

But for me, loyalty is about the betterment of all, the leader is the visionary, the loyal ones carry out the acts with him because they share the vision. When the vision is corrupted, so too is the loyalty.

So, I have to stick with my perspective of what loyalty is in this case. :)

[bawang]

" I'd scream at students and staff and tell them when they messed up.
this is manly and honorable, i would not expect any less from the mighty david ross

[taai gihk yahn]

What am I? Flypaper for freaks?

Dude please feel free to put words in my mouth like smug, sarcastic while projecting your version of what is socially appropriate:rolleyes: A sharp tongue does not mean you have a keen mind and I'd really like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my a s s.
:( didn't mean to hurt feelings dear taai gihk yahn I'm just sticking with the theme of these fine forums...

I'm a nice guy, really


Live long and prosper:p

lol, LHK - still (de)baitable after all these years...

still keeping the gun in the top drawer I see...

[wenshu]

I'll say! lol

But, I would add, Wenshu is describing what I view as a corrupted idea of loyalty. It is in fact exercised in this manner and deemed a form of loyalty to lie about or to deceive in order to maintain one persons power. I recognize that.

But for me, loyalty is about the betterment of all, the leader is the visionary, the loyal ones carry out the acts with him because they share the vision. When the vision is corrupted, so too is the loyalty.

So, I have to stick with my perspective of what loyalty is in this case. :)

That's not loyalty it's naivete. Although it must be nice living in a world where everything is a stark contrast of black and white and your moral judgement is infallible and incorruptible.

I was not stating my personal perspective nor making a value judgement about either loyalty or mendaciousness. One absolute as demonstrated in this forum on a daily basis; people will most often equivocate to themselves in the name of loyalty.

[Punch.HeadButt]

Honesty and forthrightness are hallmarks of loyalty.

Not telling someone how you feel about a situation you are directly involved with is about as disloyal as it gets.

If you've already spoken to them and things haven't changed, you've done your part.


That actually brings up a question I have for the OP...you said you had spoken a bit about the things that bother you but haven't had a serious discussion. When you expressed your concerns, did you get the impression that your Sifu was sincere in the way he addressed them? In other words, was it like he addressed them just to make you happy or because he felt you were right in that they needed to be?

If it was the latter, it's probably worth having a longer discussion in private (i.e. not around students).

[TenTigers]

I can say from personal experience, that when you own a school, you go through many, many changes. Classes, curriculum,intensity, etc. It is always a work in progress.
Sometimes, due to various pressures involved in trying to maintain a school in this economy, or raising a family at the same time,teachers get burned out, lose their focus, make changes, grasp at straws, get lazy, get complacent...it goes on.
I try to periodically meet with my seniors and pick their brains about what they would like to see more of, less of, suggestions, etc.
I also have a suggestion box in the bathroom-it's private and anonymous.
Of course most of them end up being letters from all my students telling me how much they love me, how great I am, humble, handsome...yeah. Like that.

[JamesC]

I can say from personal experience, that when you own a school, you go through many, many changes. Classes, curriculum,intensity, etc. It is always a work in progress.
Sometimes, due to various pressures involved in trying to maintain a school in this economy, or raising a family at the same time,teachers get burned out, lose their focus, make changes, grasp at straws, get lazy, get complacent...it goes on.
I try to periodically meet with my seniors and pick their brains about what they would like to see more of, less of, suggestions, etc.
I also have a suggestion box in the bathroom-it's private and anonymous.
Of course most of them end up being letters from all my students telling me how much they love me, how great I am, humble, handsome...yeah. Like that.

At my old school we used to have a suggestion box too.

That is, until one of the instructors found toenail clippings in it.:eek:

[xcakid]

On the topic of loyalty and honor: It these very reason that I am even asking for advice. This also ties in to my training.

I hurts me just to walk away. In a sense I feel I have helped build this school. I am a part of this school and a part of what my sifu teaches. However, it is hard to concentrate on training for myself when there are distractions that constantly nags at me. Difficult to even show up for class over the past few months.

I think I will just take a break after the surgery and go from there.


Thank you for all the advise. Certainly a lot to digest and think about. I have a tournament this weekend and will keep my mind on that for now.

[bawang]

this song is good advice for walk away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJH82SPhiZM

[Brule]

xcakid,

Since you've got a tourney this weekend, another way to go would be to jump on the letai with the mic and call out your Sifu. Winner gets the school.

Seriously, let us know how it goes after the layoff from surgery.

[SPJ]

this song is good advice for walk away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJH82SPhiZM

cool.

I am not the only one that plug in youtube music videos or MV in the forum.

:cool:

[bawang]

friend
have you thought of me
if you are living in happiness
please forget me

friend
have you remebered me
if you meet misfortune
come talk to me

if you find new shores
please leave me
leave me



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2QgJZcgc3E

[Lokhopkuen]

lol, LHK - still (de)baitable after all these years...

still keeping the gun in the top drawer I see...

Clap Clap Pow he he he:D

[Lokhopkuen]

I'll say! lol

But, I would add, Wenshu is describing what I view as a corrupted idea of loyalty. It is in fact exercised in this manner and deemed a form of loyalty to lie about or to deceive in order to maintain one persons power. I recognize that.

But for me, loyalty is about the betterment of all, the leader is the visionary, the loyal ones carry out the acts with him because they share the vision. When the vision is corrupted, so too is the loyalty.

So, I have to stick with my perspective of what loyalty is in this case. :)

Whether based on idealism, patriotism or just plain old jizum-ism, it's all a matter of perspective LOL. "Loyalty is faithfulness or a devotion to a person, country, group, or cause (Philosophers disagree as to what things one can be loyal to)". From my own perspective my loyalty to my Sifu is based upon the fact that my life has been enriched beyond my ability to describe. Although many times I have felt slighted, over looked, left out and even cheated I later realized my perspective was based on immaturity and a lack of experience summed up to my inability to view "the big picture". I'm glad I stuck it out because I've come to realize my teacher's learnings and experience were far greater than mine, hence he is my teacher and I his student.
I remain eternally grateful for his guidance in life's matters as well as his teachings in martial cultivations. I am sorry that some have to suffer through less fortunate associations.

Sounds like BAITER-BOY had a grand number played on his head:rolleyes:

[PalmStriker]

or maybe he likes making a lot of money. id do it if i can make 100k a year taeching little kids and empty eyed 40 year olds to prance around limply. You funny guy! :D

[SteveLau]

In today's economy, operating a profit or non-profit organization is quite often difficult. Xcakid, you are right to consider seriously of leaving the school. Yes, it is hard to do because you have love for it. I have only one advice for you if you do decide to leave the school. It is how to make the exit:

"Sifu, our school is not going as well as I want it to be. And it looks like the training class quality is unlikely to become acceptable for long. So, I will quit after this month. Take care."


May be you or other forum members can think of better lines or ways to make the exit. But making an excuse or lying is definitely a no no.



P.S. I have quit a MA school before. It was 1987, I first took a few months break, then I talked with my sifu again of resuming the training. My point is I did not lie in the matter.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Syn7]

so, wanting to make a living from something you like doing is selling out?

it is if you compromise your principles to do it... otherwise, no...

[Syn7]

Prolly a foregone concept:rolleyes:
I've been with the same teacher since 1979 through thick and thin.

and if he sold out and compromised his integrity in your eyes, even after you talk to him about it, would you still cling to him???

[Syn7]

What am I? Flypaper for freaks?

you seem very insecure. why the agressive posture?

[taai gihk yahn]

and if he sold out and compromised his integrity in your eyes, even after you talk to him about it, would you still cling to him???

my point exactly; staying with one's sifu even when they have compromised the relationship because one makes a personal choice to do so, hey, fine; doing so because of some abstract set of values is just insanity; to wit: I was with Chan Tai San for about 5 years; I left because it became clear that that was not my place; after searching around for a few more years, I found my current teacher in 1995; in the past I have been accused of abandoning CTS, but that never bothered me, because I knew that if i had stayed, I wouldn't have been true to myself, and ultimately it would have resulted in an untenable situation; so people need to listen to that little voice inside themselves and follow it, despite any external societal pressures that may exist;

[taai gihk yahn]

you seem very insecure. why the agressive posture?

it's easier for the animation team to draw him like that...

[lkfmdc]

my point exactly; staying with one's sifu even when they have compromised the relationship because one makes a personal choice to do so, hey, fine; doing so because of some abstract set of values is just insanity; to wit: I was with Chan Tai San for about 5 years; I left because it became clear that that was not my place; after searching around for a few more years, I found my current teacher in 1995; in the past I have been accused of abandoning CTS, but that never bothered me, because I knew that if i had stayed, I wouldn't have been true to myself, and ultimately it would have resulted in an untenable situation; so people need to listen to that little voice inside themselves and follow it, despite any external societal pressures that may exist;

I had numerous teachers over the years, I strongly identify with two, will admit a few more did influence me a lot, but only in kung fu theatre land does someone stay with one teacher for life

Heck, CTS had like 50 something teachers in his life

[bawang]

loyalty to teachers is safe fantasy roleplay but makes you feel like you accomplished something

[Lokhopkuen]

you seem very insecure. why the agressive posture?

It's personal, we have a history.

&
What's it to you?: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNroQ1-dWs&feature=youtube_gdata_player)D
LMAO

[Lokhopkuen]

**http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/AVAGIFS_1.gif**


it's easier for the animation team to draw him like that...

Yea I'm so ashamed.....
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/Home_1-1.gif

[Lokhopkuen]

and if he sold out and compromised his integrity in your eyes, even after you talk to him about it, would you still cling to him???

I'd never take up study with such an individual in the first place
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091029190236/uncyclopedia/images/9/9f/Chewing.gif
but thanks for asking:D

[Syn7]

my point exactly; staying with one's sifu even when they have compromised the relationship because one makes a personal choice to do so, hey, fine; doing so because of some abstract set of values is just insanity; to wit: I was with Chan Tai San for about 5 years; I left because it became clear that that was not my place; after searching around for a few more years, I found my current teacher in 1995; in the past I have been accused of abandoning CTS, but that never bothered me, because I knew that if i had stayed, I wouldn't have been true to myself, and ultimately it would have resulted in an untenable situation; so people need to listen to that little voice inside themselves and follow it, despite any external societal pressures that may exist;

exactly, and YOUR training is all about YOU anyways... why compromise that for anyone? sort of defeats the purpose, doncha think...

[Syn7]

I'd never take up study with such an individual in the first place
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091029190236/uncyclopedia/images/9/9f/Chewing.gif
but thanks for asking:D

how would you know?

if they disapoint you then that implies that they had been good to you up until that point... otherwise it wouldnt be much of a disapointment would it???

[Lokhopkuen]

how would you know?

if they disapoint you then that implies that they had been good to you up until that point... otherwise it wouldnt be much of a disapointment would it???

I understand what you are saying and I count myself very lucky in my experiences. Disappointment is based on expectation, all I expected was to learn martial and got so much more than I ever dreamed. I found myself disappointed many times in the course of my studies only to realize later I had been childish and selfish indulging my ego unable to see the big picture.

There were so many good answers on this thread before my post so I decided to play the devils advocate by mentioning loyalty as a factor and then master-baiter came along and whipped me into an unwitting frenzy hence my "aggression" LOL!

[taai gihk yahn]

I'd never take up study with such an individual in the first place
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091029190236/uncyclopedia/images/9/9f/Chewing.gif
but thanks for asking:D

looking good, man - new diet's working out nice, especially that whipped frenzy for desert! :D

[taai gihk yahn]

It's personal, we have a history.
we do?:confused:did I miss something?


&
What's it to you?: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNroQ1-dWs&feature=youtube_gdata_player)D
LMAO

that IS an awesome clip, to be sure - "He wasn't around when I woke up, I'll tell you that much...", lol!

[Scott R. Brown]

Some schools try to adopt and enforce the Confucian submission to authority, your instructor is your Master/Father tradition. They forget this is America where it is tradition to question authority and resist abuse of power!

[rett]

Some schools try to adopt and enforce the Confucian submission to authority, your instructor is your Master/Father tradition. They forget this is America where it is tradition to question authority and resist abuse of power!

If the instructor is just any other Western shmuck like me and tries to act like that then I won't have the time of day for him. Because then it's fake and posing. But if it's someone who really comes from and represents the Confucian culture then I think it's good to try to adjust and accomodate. For instance as a bare minimum not to question, resist, joke around during training or in front of other students. To me there are some valuable lessons to be learned from just accepting the situation and letting one's proud individualistic ego scream away inside till it shuts up for a while. (it's not like it won't come back, the tenacious bugger)

[Lokhopkuen]

looking good, man - new diet's working out nice, especially that whipped frenzy for desert! :D

Whip???????
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/73471/indiana-jones-o.gif

[Lokhopkuen]

we do?:confused:did I miss something?



that IS an awesome clip, to be sure - "He wasn't around when I woke up, I'll tell you that much...", lol!


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091029190236/uncyclopedia/images/9/9f/Chewing.gif
I heard that:p

[Scott R. Brown]

If the instructor is just any other Western shmuck like me and tries to act like that then I won't have the time of day for him. Because then it's fake and posing. But if it's someone who really comes from and represents the Confucian culture......

I think of a MA instructor as no different than any other athletic coach! They should be treated with the same respect and deference as any other coach.

In the old days students had to put up with the Confucian ethics because you were privileged to have the opportunity to learn from an asian, however now days you can learn anywhere just about.

I think that if you move to another country you should accommodate to the traditions of that country. Not that you have to throw out your cultural heritage, but accommodate to the new culture as well. Respect goes both ways. I don't respect those that expect Westerners to conform to their own culture in return for learning anything. We don't bow to our college instructors and thank them for the privilege to learn at their feet. They are well paid, that is their compensation.

Due respect to all people, of course, but none of this bow down and pay homage crap for me!

[Scott R. Brown]

The same goes for Westerners learning in a foreign country though as well! If I was training in Thailand, the Philippines, Japan, China, etc., it would be my responsibility to observe the local cultural traditions of the student/teacher relationship!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your best answer is to just stop caring.

See, if you don't care, then you have a great facility to do your own training, plenty of people to throw around, and when YOU teach, you can still hold the standards.

If you are the guy who has the highest standards there, and you leave, then the school really does become your complaints. If you stay, you ARE the standard, and you get all the other benefits of being there.

Rather than leave, create a special 'Elite' course. Charge a bit more, and only allow those who pass a tryout to be in that class. Then train THOSE guys to be the envy of all the other students.

Leave the rest to the 'General Public' program.

[taai gihk yahn]

Your best answer is to just stop caring.

See, if you don't care, then you have a great facility to do your own training, plenty of people to throw around, and when YOU teach, you can still hold the standards.

If you are the guy who has the highest standards there, and you leave, then the school really does become your complaints. If you stay, you ARE the standard, and you get all the other benefits of being there.

Rather than leave, create a special 'Elite' course. Charge a bit more, and only allow those who pass a tryout to be in that class. Then train THOSE guys to be the envy of all the other students.

Leave the rest to the 'General Public' program.

it's a great idea, but the problem is that when one's beacon begins to burn brighter than one's teacher's, this can create a serious issue (and i've seen it happen)

[Lokhopkuen]

Your best answer is to just stop caring..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Buddha_lantau.jpg/300px-Buddha_lantau.jpg
Wurd

[bawang]

people justify his teacher and defend him, saying theres nothing wron with compromising kung fu for money, then they wonder why kung fu is such a joke

insight into the martial arts can only ocur in uncompromised hard training

[Scott R. Brown]

it's a great idea, but the problem is that when one's beacon begins to burn brighter than one's teacher's, this can create a serious issue (and i've seen it happen)

When that happens I just turn on my "heart light" to "light up my life", because "I'd like to teach the world to sing" or "gimme a ticket for an aeroplane", cuz I'll be "leaving on a jet plane" in order to avoid the "rain drops falling on my head".........uh where was I????? :confused:

[xcakid]

Well I could not help it and hold it in anymore. I had serious conversation with my sifu tonight after the BB class.

I basically told him of what I have observed and what my concerns are. I have made some suggestions. We discussed the issues I put forth and he seem to finally see the importance of having an instructors class. He did say that these things cannot be fixed overnight. Not really sure how to take that.

I think I am gonna have my knee surgery (having MRI on Thurs.). Take maybe a month or two off to recoup. Come back and see if I find that passion I once had and to see if there have been some progress at changes. If not, then I really think I need to walk away.

[Ray Pina]

Running a commercial martial art gym is tough... its usually kids class that pays the bills. Then if you have 50 softy adults.... everything has to be dummied down to the softiest level.

Talk to your sifu privately.

There's your relationship. And there's his business.... there's also your time and desire to improve as a martial artists. If you're loyal and love that place/style stick it out, but maybe moonlight at a BJJ gym twice a week. It would do you good anyway. You can compare class styles.

[SteveLau]

Xcakid,

Once a country's president has said "There is a need to change, and change is coming." With all my best wishes, I hope your school will change for the better, and it is the change you want. Sure, give others a chance to make the change is good. A month time is sufficient to have some signs of change going on. So please keep us informed of the story progress.



Best regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Kansuke]

people justify his teacher and defend him, saying theres nothing wron with compromising kung fu for money, then they wonder why kung fu is such a joke

insight into the martial arts can only ocur in uncompromised hard training


Should he defeat his teacher in single combat then break the sign above the door? (laughing in a sinister way, of course)

[Kansuke]

Xcakid,

Once a country's president has said "There is a need to change, and change is coming."


Yeah, and look how that's worked out.

[rett]

I think that if you move to another country you should accommodate to the traditions of that country....

Due respect to all people, of course, but none of this bow down and pay homage crap for me!

I was talking about training in China.

But "bow down and pay homage"??? Where did you get that from?

That was never asked of me. If they bowed down and paid homage it would only be at a grave or shrine of an ancestor. Never to a living coach. Maybe in one setting, namely formally requesting to become a disciple. But seriously, is that so hard?

As a Buddhist I am happy to bow down to a Buddhist monk or nun whatever country they're from or whatever social background they have, but that's not really about "homage" either. It's respecting the Sangha.

[Scott R. Brown]

I was talking about training in China.

But "bow down and pay homage"??? Where did you get that from?

That was never asked of me. If they bowed down and paid homage it would only be at a grave or shrine of an ancestor. Never to a living coach. Maybe in one setting, namely formally requesting to become a disciple. But seriously, is that so hard?

As a Buddhist I am happy to bow down to a Buddhist monk or nun whatever country they're from or whatever social background they have, but that's not really about "homage" either. It's respecting the Sangha.

I apologize for not being very clear. My comment was meant to be about the wannbe Americans, trying to be Asian Masters, but don’t really know the language and culture very well, cult like schools.

I bowed and what not in my Aiki-jujutsu and Aikido classes. One taught by traditional Japanese man and the other an American who learned under a traditional Japanese man.:)

[rett]

I apologize for not being very clear. My comment was meant to be about the wannbe Americans, trying to be Asian Masters, but don’t really know the language and culture very well, cult like schools.

I think I'm lucky not to have been exposed to that world except from seeing some ridiculous websites. People who title themselves "grandmaster" and the like don't even enter my radar as worth taking into consideration. Even if they can fight, they're such ego-tripped phonies as to be a total joke.